(Re-release) Unsolicited Advice: How to get your mojo back at work

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fixable – "Re-release: Unsolicited Advice: How to get your mojo back at work"

Hosts: Anne Morriss & Frances Frei
Release Date: January 19, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, hosts Anne Morriss (CEO and best-selling author) and Frances Frei (Harvard Business professor)–partners in both marriage and work–go all-in with practical, compassionate, and sometimes delightfully blunt advice for anyone feeling stuck, overwhelmed, under-inspired, or in a state of "exhausted mediocrity" at work. With the promise to spare no wisdom or restraint, they break down the causes of burnout, provide strategies for intentional recovery, and explore powerful ways to rediscover energy, passion, and purpose in one’s professional life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Problem: "Exhausted Mediocrity" (02:31–05:19)

• Anne introduces the dual issue plaguing many workers: being both overwhelmed and uninspired, a state she and Frances describe as "exhausted mediocrity."

• Referencing Adam Grant’s term “languishing,” they detail how this state is marked by persistent stress without payoff, resulting in burnout and a sense of futility.

  “It's this mix of feeling both stressed and bored at the same time…we are just in this state of activity without any return.” – Anne Morriss (03:35)

• Frances emphasizes how demoralizing it is to be exhausted and mediocre:

  “If I was going to be mediocre, I'd like to be well-rested.” – Frances Frei (04:27)

Renewal Equation

• Dial down negative (burnout) and dial up positive parts (energy, engagement).
• Both aim to help listeners transform work from a life-force drain to a source of life-force.

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2. Addressing Exhaustion: Why We're So Tired & What We Can Do About It

a) The "Always On" Culture (05:24–10:38)

• Frances references Harvard colleague Leslie Perlow’s research, which shows that always-on individuals and teams perform worse than those who schedule true time off.

  “You are giving up performance if you're doing that.” – Frances Frei (06:44)

• Prescription: The team, as a whole, can deliver continuous service, but individuals must alternate — it's not sustainable if everyone is "always on" at all times.

  “We have an always-on value proposition to the customer. We don't have an always-on culture. We have a scheduled time-off culture.” – Frances Frei (07:19)

• Book mentioned: Sleeping with Your Smartphone by Leslie Perlow.

• Intentionality is key: "Intentional disconnection" (Anne, 08:18), physically putting away devices, and agreeing to boundaries.

• External demands matter, but personal agency is recognized:

  “I have to tell you, I don't think it's because anyone else is imposing anything on us. I think it's an inside job.” – Frances Frei (09:25)

b) Experimentation & Agency (09:39–10:38)

• Both hosts encourage leveraging new workplace openness to experiment with boundaries, rest, and schedules.

• There’s no universally optimal schedule; what matters is being deliberate about rest:

  “The intentionality of the off, that was the key ingredient.” – Frances Frei (10:42)

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c) Emotional Contagion & Boundaries (11:04–15:25)

• Anne raises the struggle of empathetic workers absorbing others' negative emotions.

• Frances offers two tools from her “operations DNA”:

  1. Reduce: Limit exposure (quarantine, reduce interaction)
  2. Accommodate: Accept and let others act out their emotions without taking responsibility (referencing Mel Robbins' “Let them” mantra).

  “If there's something that's... you need to not get the full strength of it, you either reduce it or you accommodate it.” – Frances Frei (12:03)

• Anne appreciates the freeing aspect of not being “co-responsible” for everyone else’s emotional state.

• Frances' hierarchy:

  “Reduce everywhere you can… when you can’t, accommodate.” (14:57)

d) Tactic Summary (15:29–16:02)

• Intention is the recurring theme: bring deep intention to breaks, job design, emotional boundaries, and personal agency.

  “You got to own it. You're the problem. It's you.” – Anne Morriss (16:02)

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3. Rekindling Energy: Rediscovering Passion, Purpose, and Mission

a) Aliveness through Passion and Mission (17:51–20:52)

• The hosts push back against the trendy dismissal of passion as “frivolous.”

  “I think passion is underrated in the quest to [come] alive. Where we will agree is that it's not sufficient. But where we disagree is ...” – Frances Frei (19:04)

• Mission does not have to be "world peace"; it just needs to be bigger than yourself.

b) Tactics for Rediscovering Passion (20:53–25:22)

• Frances shares her practice of coaching people to become anthropologists of their own interests:

  • “Notice where you stop and dwell” in news, reading, YouTube–these are clues to genuine interest.

  “Be judgment free. Observe where you are dwelling. That's a pretty good first order of what catches your interest.” – Frances Frei (20:57)

• Anne relates the value of uncovering “what made you weird as a kid” — quirky, sidelined behaviors can signal your core passions.

  “What do you do that's weird? What are you doing on the down low?” – Anne Morriss (23:55)

• Frances gives her own example: experimenting with video teaching as an outgrowth of her mission to democratize access to learning.

c) Micro-Needs Matter Too (25:30–28:43)

• Besides grand passions, daily micro-needs – like variety, steep learning, risk, competition, or mastery–are vital.

  “If you need variety, don't deny yourself variety. And if you need consistency, don't deny yourself consistency.” – Frances Frei (29:05)

• Anne: “What do you need most from work? ... How well are you meeting these needs right now? ... How might we evolve this job so that it gets closer to what you need?”

d) Practical Exercise (29:43–30:15)

• Make a list of your top five work needs.
• Assess how well they’re being met.
• If unmet, strategize ways to redesign work—or plan an exit if needed.

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4. Big Energy: Ambition & "Adding a Zero" (32:46–38:54)

a) The Power of Big Goals

• Frances introduces her coaching approach: “Add a zero” to any goal; make it much bigger than feels comfortable.

  “The more ambitious you are, you will achieve more. Ambition is our friend. So adding a zero to a goal is a delicious way to thrive.” – Frances Frei (33:51)

• Contrarian view: Don’t just focus on micro-steps. Instead, envision a destination that genuinely excites you—even (especially) if it feels out of reach.

  “I want it to be that far away.” – Frances Frei (35:11)

• Anne references Peter Drucker’s idea that people underestimate what they can accomplish in five years, but calls for even shorter, more ambitious cycles in today’s fast-moving world.

  “Now, I feel like we are just way underestimating what can happen in three to five years. I don't even know how to think about that.” – Frances Frei (36:27)

b) The Power of Starting Now

• Don’t fall into the trap of constant planning – just begin.

  “How about now?” – Frances Frei (38:16; signature phrase)

• Action releases energy, creates momentum, and is a powerful antidote to anxiety and stagnation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If I was going to be mediocre, I'd like to be well-rested.” – Frances Frei (04:27)
• “Intentionality gets the headline. You have to be intentional about the off time.” – Frances Frei (10:42)
• “The phrase I like…is intentional disconnection.” – Anne Morriss (08:18)
• “Let them…you do your own inside job…you get to choose how to respond to it.” – Frances Frei on Mel Robbins' “Let them” (13:24)
• “Be judgment free. Observe where you are dwelling…That's a pretty good first order of what catches your interest.” – Frances Frei (20:57)
• “What do you do that's weird? What are you doing on the down low?” – Anne Morriss (23:55)
• “If you need variety, don't deny yourself variety. And if you need consistency, don't deny yourself consistency.” – Frances Frei (29:05)
• “Add a zero…ambition is our friend.” – Frances Frei (33:51)
• “How about now?” – Frances Frei (38:16)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Exhausted Mediocrity Defined: 02:31–05:19
• Always-On Culture & Rest: 05:24–10:38
• Emotional Boundaries at Work: 11:04–15:25
• Intentionality Recap: 15:29–16:02
• Rediscovering Passion & Purpose: 17:51–20:52
• Becoming Your Own Anthropologist: 20:53–25:22
• Micro-Needs Matter: 25:30–29:43
• List Your Work Needs Exercise: 29:43–30:15
• Ambition – "Add a Zero": 32:46–38:54
• The Power of Starting Now: 38:16

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Tone

Anne and Frances maintain a candid, supportive, and occasionally wry tone throughout. Their dynamic is fast-paced, deeply empathetic, and refreshingly practical, with plenty of playful ribbing and honest self-reflection.

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Practical Takeaways

• Schedule deliberate time off—intentionality is more important than any “best” schedule (10:42)
• Reduce or accommodate emotional contagion: set boundaries or adopt a “let them” mindset for others’ negativity (12:03–14:16)
• Revisit your passions: track what genuinely draws your attention and energizes you, no matter how odd or off-brand (20:57, 23:55)
• List and honor your micro-needs at work (29:05)
• Dream much bigger than feels comfortable (“Add a zero” to your goals) and start acting now (33:51, 38:16)

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This episode is especially valuable for anyone on the brink of burnout, those seeking to recharge their sense of purpose, or leaders aiming to build environments where everyone can do their best work sustainably. It’s a reminder that both intentional rest and bold ambition can, and should, co-exist in today’s workplace.

Transcript

[Sponsor Voice 1]

This episode is supported by Harvard Business School Executive Education. Their programs create powerful connections for leaders around the world, strengthening both organizations and individuals by deepening existing relationships and fostering new ones. Participants leave with lifelong friends, new potential business partners, and a powerful globe spanning network of fellow change makers. Learn more at HBS ME Learn. That's HBS ME Learn.

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[Anne Morris]

Frances we are more than halfway through the year now, gearing up for a quick summer break. I feel like so far we've done what we came to do on the show.

[Frances Frey]

I completely agree. I have loved the Master Fixers, the teach ins. I think we've done everything. I think it's been a good semester. And you know, I might be most proud about the fact that we give just enough advice.

[Anne Morris]

I feel like we have been holding back a little bit. I have to say, I think restraint has been a theme of the first half of this year.

[Frances Frey]

I think so. And it's unnatural for me. As you know, I think it, I say it is usually how I operate. But for our listeners, I'm trying to moderate a little bit.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, well, it's good news because our plan today is to practice no restraint at all. We had a lot more to say to Rosemary about recovery and how to get your mojo back at work. And we're gonna say all of it on this episode, which feels like the perfect way to help prepare our listeners for a proper summer season of rest and renewal.

[Frances Frey]

I love it. I love it so much.

[Anne Morris]

Welcome to Fixable, a podcast from ted. I'm your host, Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[Frances Frey]

And I'm your co host, Frances Frey. I'm a Harvard Business School professor and I'm Ann's wife.

[Anne Morris]

This is a show where we believe meaningful change happens fast with some intentional rest and recovery along the way.

[Frances Frey]

There is a reason a week is followed by a weekend.

[Anne Morris]

Exactly. Today on the show, we're going to give unsolicited advice to anyone who is feeling stuck at work right now, both overwhelmed and under inspired. We're going to tackle both parts. How to get unstuck, but also how to create an experience of work that is worthy of you and your short time on this planet.

[Frances Frey]

Oh, I love your ambition.

[Anne Morris]

I want us to deal with the deficit of life force, the burnout part, the part of work that feels, like, literally unsustainable. And then I want to talk about how you replace that mediocrity with something else, something bigger, that may even create a surplus of energy. If we're making this equation work, we want to dial down the negative parts, but we also have to dial up the positive ones. How does that sound as a plan?

[Frances Frey]

Well, from my math mind, we are nowhere near the frontier, so I'm optimistic.

[Anne Morris]

So we sometimes call this state, this experience of work exhausted, mediocrity. And when we say that, it really hits some people hard. And it's this mix of feeling both stressed and bored at the same time. So our friend Adam Grant sometimes uses the word languishing to describe this. A variety of this experience. It's a beautiful word, but it's something beyond just feeling stuck or stagnant. It's also an experience where our nervous systems are jacked up, but we're not getting any payoff for it. We're never outrunning the lion. We're never bringing down the woolly mammoth. We are just in this state of activity without any return.

[Frances Frey]

It almost feels criminal that we're exhausted and we don't even get excellence for it. We're exhausted and mediocre. I mean, if I was going to be mediocre, I'd like to be, well rested.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, totally something. And today, we want to get after both of these parts, which I think of as almost a renewal equation. So there's part one, the exhaustion, which is this deficit of life force, the burnout, the part of work that is feeling unsustainable because we don't have enough energy holding us up. And then the second part is how to replace that deficiency with something else, something bigger, something more ambitious, something that's gonna more reliably create, dare I say, a surplus of energy where we might even be jumping out of bed to get after it. In our experience of work.

[Frances Frey]

I feel like this is gonna be a gift that so many people are ready to receive.

[Anne Morris]

Okay, Francis, let's start with the cause of the problem here on the exhaustion side. So your lovely colleague Leslie Perlow has done a lot of thinking on this. Why are we all so tired at work?

[Frances Frey]

Because we care so much. Is one part of the answer what Leslie's language would be? Because we are always on. And so she did just a breathtaking study which compared teams that everyone was always on. It was in professional services, where you really are like your client. Needs you to be always on. And she had teams that were always on, individuals were always on, and then teams that were collectively always on, but individually had scheduled time off. Orders of magnitude better performance in the ladder. So you can, for a team, be always on, but it doesn't mean each individual. Although what I see in practice is that if we're an always on culture, everyone is always on. And what I know from Leslie's beautiful work is that that is going to lead to exhausted mediocrity. That is no way to win. You are giving up performance if you're doing that. So that's the first one. Is that the scheduled time off for individuals?

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. I was gonna ask what's the rem? So I'm in a culture. There's an implicit expectation that I'm always on. What's the remedy?

[Frances Frey]

I think make always on a group thing, even a duo thing. So one of us will be always on.

[Anne Morris]

Got it.

[Frances Frey]

That's, I think, the way. And that's how she designed the experiment. Because we don't want to give less service to the client, but we want our team to be able to deliver higher quality when they are on.

[Anne Morris]

So if it's a team of Anne and Frances, we can still be an always on culture. But Anne is on part of the time, Frances is on the other part of the time.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah. And I would say we have an always on value proposition to the customer. We don't have an always on culture. We have a scheduled time off culture.

[Anne Morris]

So Leslie's book is called sleeping with your smartphone, which is super memorable.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

So there's also a piece of this that is not just about job design, which I think you're offering a beautiful remedy here. But what do I do if I've just been pulled in to the reality of being alive right now, which is an always on human experience.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah. So I always have Leslie Perlow sitting on my shoulder, which is I have to take scheduled times off. So I have to turn off the news. I have to turn off the like. I don't think anything replaces that. We need scheduled time off, always on for any source isn't going to work. But to be alive right now, usually a cause of exhaustion, always on is one of them.

[Anne Morris]

So the phrase I like from her work is intentional disconnection.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

[Anne Morris]

Being deeply disciplined about, you know, putting the phone away. Arianna Huffington has done a lot of thinking on this in her thrive movement. Has a little bed for your phone. She tucks her phone in at night. I think all of this stuff is really helpful and it's very aligned with the Jim Lair and Tony Schwartz's peak performance literature where they found that these elite athletes allowed them to truly excel in a sustainable way over time as they brought the same amount of discipline and obsession to their rest and recovery as they did to their training and their nutrition and all these other things we associate with elite performance. And channeling Leslie's advice, I feel like everyone chasing this is honoring our human biology, which is that we were designed to rest and recover, rest and recover, rest and recover, not these marathon work lives that we're trying to live.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah. And it's both marathon work lives that other people are imposing on us, perhaps, but we also do it ourselves, like we're taking our smartphone to bed. I gotta tell you, I don't think it's because anyone else is imposing anything on us. I think it's an inside job.

[Anne Morris]

That's, I think, what we have to be accountable for. I think how much agency we actually do have to schedule rest, set some boundaries. I think the world is also very open to this. I mean, the whole movement around four day work week, everyone is in a lot of pain, which is terrible. We feel it. I feel this acutely. But it does mean that there's also an openness that I think is unprecedented to experiment and come up with solutions both in our individual lives, but also inside teams and systems as large as organizations.

[Frances Frey]

It's a great point.

[Anne Morris]

So I think we have to own it and then use the formal and informal power we have to try new things because this is not working.

[Frances Frey]

And it's a great time to experiment. To your point, the world seems very open. It's. Everyone is palpably feeling the problem. Now's a great time to experiment with solutions.

[Anne Morris]

So, Francis, is there some kind of optimal schedule here?

[Frances Frey]

There is not. So, interestingly, intentionality gets the headline. You have to be intentional about the off time, but it doesn't say you have to do it between the hours of 9 and 5 and you have to do it from here to there. There was no evidence that one was universally better than the other. But the, the intentionality of the off, that was the key ingredient.

[Anne Morris]

Beautiful. So let me poke at one other source of exhaustion that see a lot of which is the infectiousness of other people's emotion.

[Frances Frey]

Oh, goodness.

[Anne Morris]

So I'm coming at this as on the kind of empathetic scale leaning more towards maybe than you being, being deeply aware of other people's emotions. But I wanna say that you are very good at designing a life where you are limiting your exposure to emotions that you know are not going to serve you.

[Frances Frey]

Yes.

[Anne Morris]

So talk us through this. Sure. You know, we just talked to Amanda Ripley and, you know, one of the lessons from her work is that other people's emotions are a huge variable in our experience as human beings. We know this is true for the emotions of leaders, which is this broadcast feature you have. So what do I do if that's part of my challenge at work?

[Frances Frey]

So my operations DNA will say that you have two tools. If there's something that's like you need to not get the full strength of it, you either reduce it or you accommodate it. So I'll just.

[Anne Morris]

Those are my only two choices.

[Frances Frey]

Those are your only two choices. So you either reduce or accommodate. So by reducing, I think that's what I do, which is I reduce the amount that I let other people's emotions influence me by limiting my interaction with other people. Like I literally. I quarantine.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah.

[Frances Frey]

Either them or me. And that's reduce. And it's a great strategy. Not everyone can reduce in every context. If you can't, you have to figure out how to palatably accommodate. How to palatably accommodate it. As good as I am at reducing, that's how bad I am at accommodating, which is why I'm so good at reducing. So I want to be super clear about it. But let me give you the second option, because I do have degrees of freedom to reduce. So accommodating is. Know the popular version of it today would be Mel Robbins. Let them. That's a beautiful accommodation, the ultimate accommodation.

[Anne Morris]

And what is let them for. For listeners who don't know.

[Frances Frey]

And what. Let them is our wonderful work. It's like mystical if you ask me. But I'll tell you what it is, which is when, if someone else is doing something that feels negatively, emotionally contagious, let them. Let they're being passive aggressive, let them. If they're being inconsiderate, let them. And she just goes through this mantra of instead of trying to control it, you let them. And then you do your own inside job of you get to choose how to respond to it, but you, at all costs, do not try to control them. It's like the. It's like the 100% accommodation strategy. Now this has worked so well for people. They're getting tattoos, say let them. But I'm not a. I'm not an accommodator in that regard. I'm a reducer.

[Anne Morris]

And what I find liberating about it because I'm a little bit of a sponge myself. So I have to be disciplined about these kinds of boundaries. I feel it's less about control and more about feeling responsible. Like co responsible.

[Frances Frey]

That's great.

[Anne Morris]

Like if you are upset, then I am co responsible for helping you feel better. And I and, and let them to me is also about giving myself permission to not not have to be a part of the solution for everybody's pain. I think Mel, maybe I have signed up for your pain. Francis well, and I'm very grateful for part of the contract, but you know, that does not scale to the rest of the world.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah, I think we should think about reduce and accommodate. I will go ahead and give it hierarchy. Reduce everywhere you can, which is quarantine, limit, contain and then when you can't.

[Anne Morris]

That's my let them. That's your, that's your, that's your introverted conclusion here. I my extroverted wife might have. Yes, just limit your exposure to other human beings. Problem solved, people.

[Frances Frey]

You're making my point for me.

[Anne Morris]

All right. The summary for a tactic to the energy drain. If I had to pick a word, it's intention. It's bringing deep intention to, to breaks, to job design, to boundaries and really taking ownership and using the agency we have, it's, you know, it can be variable depending on the situation. But using the agency, we have to take this issue quite seriously.

[Frances Frey]

And even taking your intentionality all the way to how you emotionally respond to other people, as you just pointed out.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, yeah, you got to own it. You got to own it. You're the problem. It's you.

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[Anne Morris]

All right, Francis, Part two of the equation Energy Sources A Response to the Mediocrity Part of Exhausted Mediocrity. I'll start us off with another quote which you one that I love and we've shared with our listeners before, which is Howard Thurman, one of the great 20th century theologians. He said, don't ask what the world needs, ask what makes you come alive, and go do it. Because the world needs people who have come alive. So this is the question I want to ask. If I'm feeling a lack of aliveness in the workplace, how do I get in touch with that life force and find a way to dial it up?

[Frances Frey]

This is such a rich topic and I can't wait to hear from your perspective because you coach people on this all the time. I'll begin with a couple of thoughts. One is to come alive. It really helps to work on something you're passionate about. It is order of magnitudes helpful.

[Anne Morris]

I love you saying that because I feel like passion has been beaten up as a variable in the last few years.

[Frances Frey]

It is now in vogue to say it is frivolous to follow your passion. And and I now I can't help but saying I look at the demographics and if I just showed you the photos of the people that were saying it, there are very clear demographic tendencies of who's saying this. And I like the people very much, but I disagree on their point that passion is overrated. I think passion is underrated in the quest to alive. Where we will agree is that it's not sufficient. But where we disagree is it it's.

[Anne Morris]

Not for serious people doing serious things.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah. And here's what's always funny to me. The people who claim that passion doesn't matter have come alive doing things they're passionate about.

[Anne Morris]

Oh yeah, the messengers are quite passionate and quite alive. So the word that's Also activating for me is mission, because I think what it is is finding a purpose for your life that is bigger than you. But I want to say it does not have to be world peace, although if it is, we could use you out here. But it has to be a purpose that is noble to you and it can be taking care of your family. It just has to be bigger than you and your ego and identity for this to work.

[Frances Frey]

I. I do feel like, like totally internal focused passion is going to somehow turn into toxicity. Like if we're. If we're only thinking about ourselves, we have to end up being unpleasant to be around.

[Anne Morris]

Oh, yeah, I think. And I think we see that pattern all the time with people getting stuck in that place.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

So, I mean, tactically, how do I figure that out in your experience?

[Frances Frey]

Yeah. So when I used to coach MBA students who were thinking about, like, what did they want to do with, Particularly the ones that came to HBS to transition from one field to another, and they were like, I knew I wanted to transition, but I don't know what I'm interested in. Like, let's say I could go anywhere, I don't know. And what I invited them to do was to be an anthropologist about themselves and just float around beside them and notice where do you stop and dwell if you're reading the headlines of a newspaper? Which articles do you read when you're looking at the magazine rack? Which do you pick up when you're looking at YouTube? Like, be judgment free. Observe where you are dwelling. That's a pretty good first order of what catches your interest. When I ask people to do that and they come back and tell me it always begins with. I was super surprised to find that.

[Anne Morris]

I. Yeah, I love that I'll sometimes phrase it with people. What makes you weird? You know, what makes you different? What made you weird as a kid? What did you do that the other kids weren't doing? Before I found my way to writing, one of the weird things I would do, which had nothing to do with my job or my identity, was to just to do these silly writing contests. And one of them that I won, which is still my greatest publishing achievement, was Starbucks. Starbucks was doing this. They had a competition where you could sit, send in quotes that they would put on the side of a cup. And I was like, I don't know, 22, and I was in a Starbucks in New York. And I was like, oh, I can win that contest. So I sent in this quote. Well, six months later, I got a package in the mail from Starbucks with a pound of coffee and a tiny little single plunger coffee maker. And then like 60 cups with my quote on the side. This is what I want. They put it all over the world in the hands of millions of Starbucks customers. I know because a subset of those customers has tracked me down for the last 20 years. Because the quote starts, the irony of commitment is that it's deeply liberating.

[Frances Frey]

There's my girl.

[Anne Morris]

And so, and, and so I get. I. I still get messages like, I decided to propose to my wife or I decided to quit my job. So that was fucking weird, right?

[Frances Frey]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

And. And it was. And yes, I got a signal back that, that, okay, maybe there was something here. So that was useful. But the more useful data, in my experience and my experience coaching people, this is the fact that I was doing it in the first place.

[Frances Frey]

I love it. What do you. What do you do? That's weird. What are you doing on the down low?

[Anne Morris]

What are you doing on the down low? Yeah, that doesn't really fit with the Persona you have shared with the world.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah, it's really good. It's really good what I'm doing on the down low right now.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. This is something I feel like I should ask my wife.

[Frances Frey]

Oh, I'm creating crazy shit all day long.

[Anne Morris]

All day long. And it is, if you look at the pattern, a clue to the things you're passionate about and the gifts you can share with the world. This is another episode, but it is, to your point, absolutely legitimate place to start. And if you really are struggling, start here.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah. I do think it's just a beautiful way. And if I anthropologically observed what I'm doing, I am experimenting like crazy with the art form of videos for teaching.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah.

[Frances Frey]

Because. And it reveals. I really want to democratize access to education like I really want to. And I don't know how, but I think videos are gonna be part of it. And so if you saw me on the down low, when you're like, what are you doing? For sure, this is what I'm doing.

[Anne Morris]

No, in the middle of the night, that's what you're doing.

[Frances Frey]

That's what I'm doing.

[Anne Morris]

You know, early morning, that's what you're doing. And it absolutely connects back up to what you are most deeply passionate about, which is scaling access to learning and insight to everyone. I think that's how I would summarize your mission in the world.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

But here's the thing. This top down mission purpose, we're going to rehabilitate the word passion.

[Frances Frey]

Yes.

[Anne Morris]

God bless you, Scott Galloway.

[Frances Frey]

And Reid Hoffman.

[Anne Morris]

And Reid Hoffman. Scott's been on the show. That's what we're passionate about. We are so rooting for these beautiful emotional men. Build empires on top of their passion.

[Frances Frey]

And influence our boys.

[Anne Morris]

Please, please continue to. Okay, but that's not enough. We also need to think about this problem from the bottom up, which is what are the. Okay, we've dealt with the macro, passion, purpose, but you also have to deal with your micro needs.

[Frances Frey]

Oh, I like this.

[Anne Morris]

On a daily basis, this is where.

[Frances Frey]

You and I really, we just go to. We go down different paths. This is a fork in the road.

[Anne Morris]

And we can't outrun these. And this was a hard lesson for me to learn. I started out in the not for profit world. The mission was deeply activating. The daily experience was so brutal for me in some of these organizations because I had a need for steep learning, variety, competition, risk taking. Like, I have to have a certain amount of risk in my Life. And we're 20 years into the marriage, so if I'm not getting it at home.

[Frances Frey]

Yes. No, no, no, no. Get it at home, get it at home.

[Anne Morris]

I gotta go, I gotta take responsibility and go out in the world and do like stuff with stakes.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

You know, get on stages and build companies that might fail and all that stuff. I gotta go get those needs met. So what I'll say to people is, okay, mission great, beautiful, let's figure it out. But now you wake up in the morning, you go into work, what happens next?

[Frances Frey]

Yeah, and here's how I like if I was going to take that beautiful thought and just put in five categories of bottom up needs. And I like to think about them because you and I, we're similar on a minority of them.

[Anne Morris]

The overlap is minimal. I think that's why we're good collaborators.

[Frances Frey]

I think it's really beautiful. But so variety, you need it in so many aspects of your life. You are like desperately seeking variety. I am desperately seeking the optimal way once I have optimal mastery.

[Anne Morris]

Optimal way, like it's a totally different.

[Frances Frey]

There is not a lot of variety in mastery. I mean, there's variety early on when you're learning, but as you get closer and closer.

[Anne Morris]

And so, for example, like 10,000 hours. Do you know how much my throat closes whenever I hear. You're supposed to. You need to do something for 10,000 hours before you're good at it. Oh my God, it's my nightmare.

[Frances Frey]

And then for me, it also goes all the way down to, you know, what I eat Like I do not seek variety in what I eat. I think it's a really serious thing. Makes me neither a good or bad person. You seek a lot of variety in what you eat.

[Anne Morris]

Makes you coaching me to remove the judgment.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah, yeah. You come at me with a lot of judgment on this one. Variety is not superior.

[Anne Morris]

You're eating the same turkey sandwich you've.

[Frances Frey]

Had for 50 years and there is. And your variety is not superior to my consistency. Not.

[Anne Morris]

But here's what's really important about this conversation. We'll let the listeners decide. Here's what's really important about the conversation is it is about without judgment because this is another inside job without self judgment.

[Frances Frey]

Like I'd like a little other judgment but go ahead.

[Anne Morris]

Naming, naming, owning, solving for your micro.

[Frances Frey]

Needs at all your needs and yeah and I think it really is important. And if you need variety, don't deny yourself variety. And if you need consistency, don't deny yourself consistency. And I think those are on the variety and the mastery. Where you and I do overlap I think is that we both need steep learning curves. Boredom comes in fast and furious and hard for us and when we're bored nothing good happens and so we have to keep making things more challenging in order to be able to stick to it.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, often it's one of the places where I'll start coaching people is okay, let's come up with a list like what do you need most from work? Give me your top five and how well are you meeting these needs? You not this corporation that is doing this to you. How well are you meeting these needs right now? And then how might we evolve this job so that it gets closer to what you need? And if you can't get it here, then let's plot an exit for where you can find it.

[Frances Frey]

I love the bottom up and the top down and the top down needs and the anthropologists judgment free perspective of ourselves.

[Anne Morris]

This podcast is brought to you by Simply cx. Here on Fixable, we help leaders tackle real workplace challenges and create change that's stable. One of the most important challenges leaders face right now is customer experience. It has moved from nice to have to the driving force behind whether a business thrives or struggles. That's why Microsoft created a new podcast called Simply CX and why you should listen to it. Hosted by Nicole McKinley, Microsoft's global customer experience CX leader, simply CX features leaders from companies like CarMax, TD bank and T Mobile who are redesigning how organizations connect with customers. You will hear how innovation and great leadership come together to create change that makes markets and fuel sustainable growth. The conversations are direct, practical, and packed with takeaways you can immediately apply to your own strategies, teams and customers. If you are working to build an experience that customers love and a customer centric culture your employees are part of, Simply CX will help you get there faster. So don't miss out. Start listening to Simply CX every other Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts, and follow host Nicole McKinley on LinkedIn to keep the conversation going.

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[Anne Morris]

One more I want to get in one more sandbox on this, Francis, and I'm going to describe this this one as Add a zero.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah, I love this.

[Anne Morris]

And there is a point. You and I talk to a lot of companies. We work with a lot of great teams. There is a point early on in every conversation we have with leaders and teams of leaders where you say some variation on oh, interesting. Those goals are terrific and what would happen if we added a 0? You also sometimes call this the magic dust question, where if you could sprinkle magic dust, what would be different tomorrow than it is today? It is a totally electric moment when you give people license to really dream. So what does that look like for people listening on the scale of an individual life?

[Frances Frey]

Yeah, so I think in my experience, and this is quite counter to a lot of the popular advice that I hear. So I will tell you in my experience, but I'm right. But I will just tell you humbly, in my experience that the more ambitious you are, you will achieve more. Ambition is our friend. So adding a zero to a goal is a delicious way to thrive. Cutting a timeline in half Is a delicious way to experiment and find new creative ways of doing things. And I sometimes look at the advice the same way that I hear the advice that, oh, passion is overrated. I often hear that from a lot of men in the. In. You know what I hear from a lot of women without their saying it, it's, you know what, just concentrate on the micro steps. Just do one small thing today, right? And it's so empathetic. But I couldn't disagree more. Yeah, don't start with a small thing. Add a zero. I actually think if you start with a small thing, you're gonna end up in a path that I can totally see the destination from here. And I don't wanna be able to see the destination. I want it to be that far away.

[Anne Morris]

And the path may be one step at the time. But what I hear you saying to people is, let's pick a defin is let's pick a destination that's worthy of you. Like this is you're gonna get up every day and do something hard.

[Frances Frey]

So, like what I need, and I need it to feel, I want you to give it your all. I don't want it to be so possible as just do one micro thing tomorrow. Oh, that's your 10,000 hours. How your throat closes. My throat closes to this so much because I'm like, these people are not gonna live up to their potential if you let them do that.

[Anne Morris]

And people sometimes ask about timelines. I think a lot about Peter Drucker's observation that people often overestimate what they can do in a year, but they underestimate what they can do in five years. And so the timeline I'll sometimes push people on is three to five years. Let's start with the three to five years. If you want to dare to dream, and I suspect you're shorter, but if you want to dare to dream, like what your life could feel like in three to five years, what could happen? What could go right? As human beings, we wired to think so much about what could go wrong. Let's really bring some ambition to what could go right.

[Frances Frey]

And I don't know if it's the age of AI or now. I feel like we are just way underestimating what can happen in three to five years. I don't even know how to think about that. I mean, here's my reference point. Most people have annual development conversations and they talk about like, oh, well, you know, what am I going to do this year? When I. I'm like, that's obsolete. You should Be having them quarterly and then monthly. Some of your high performers weekly and maybe even daily. So this notion of, like, even, even when you say three to five years, I'm like, oh, goodness, no. And I bet if Peter Drucker were alive today, he would update the time. But I'm just hypothesizing there.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, I, I, he was in a sleepier time. I like dragging him into this against his will. Yeah, but I, I think that' provocative thought. I love it. In the age of AI, how would we update that observation? And I think point is very well taken. Here's what I'll also say is a lesson from our work is that a huge amount of energy gets released once you figure out what the ambition is. A huge amount of energy gets released from simply beginning, oh, yeah, like taking action, addressing problems, choosing to be in motion. It's not just an antidote to anxiety, which it is. Right. It also, you know, if you think about the emotional impact, the release of relief into the system and the license to dream about what could go right as we start to move forward, there is just tremendous power to being in motion.

[Frances Frey]

You know, I would have these coaching conversations with people, and we'd be halfway through, and I got them in touch with their ambition. And then they were like, all right, you know what? I'm gonna schedule a meeting with you in three to five weeks. I'm gonna go, really think about it. Three to five weeks, and we'll have a planning session then. And I was like, or how about now? And I became known as how about now? I'm sure people closed their doors when they saw me coming, but I have to tell you, when we did the how about now? It was gorgeous. Often better than the three to five weeks. Because in those three to five weeks, yes, you're planning, but you're also just finding creative ways to say no and to limit your ambition.

[Anne Morris]

I love that. As a summary mantra bumper sticker for this second part of the equation, which is to get started on Dreaming Big. Thank you for listening to this episode. Your participation helps us make great shows like this. Please keep reaching out to us. If you want to figure out a question about your own workplace problem together, send us a message, email, call, or text [e-mail] or 234- FIXABLE. That's 234-349-2253.

[Frances Frey]

We hope you all take a great break this summer. Our team at Fixable will definitely be doing so. We'll have a lot of intentional recovery in the next few weeks. We're going to share episodes from other shows that we love and we hope that you'll enjoy them.

[Anne Morris]

Fixable is a podcast brought to you by Ted and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris and me, Frances Fry. This episode was produced by Rahima Nassa. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Daniela Baloro and Roxanne Hylash.

[Frances Frey]

Our show is mixed by Louie at Storyard.

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[Anne Morris]

Par le tu francais hablas espanol?

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