Fixable x Design Matters: Stephen J. Dubner on Curiosity, Identity, and 20 Years of Freakonomics
Main Theme & Purpose
In this special crossover episode from Design Matters, hosted by Debbie Millman and featured on Fixable, Stephen J. Dubner—award-winning journalist, bestselling author, and co-creator of Freakonomics—reflects on the 20th anniversary of his cultural phenomenon. The conversation explores Dubner’s family history, formative influences, creative philosophy, and Freakonomics’ enduring legacy. Dubner’s wide-ranging insights on curiosity, courage, and the human element in data-driven storytelling offer listeners actionable inspiration for both life and leadership.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Early Influences and the Power of Teachers
(04:10 - 08:28)
- Dubner shares the story of his first publication at age 11 in Highlights magazine. His fourth grade teacher, Mrs. Peterson, anonymously submitted his poem, giving him a crucial boost of confidence:
- "My goodness, what a vote of confidence that was...I have that original copy of Highlights on the coffee table in my office to this day." (05:21, Stephen Dubner)
- He emphasizes the lasting impact of a good teacher and candidly reflects on his brief, self-aware attempt at becoming a professor, realizing he was "too selfish" for academia, preferring writing and research.
2. Family History, Identity, and Religious Journey
(08:28 - 26:22)
- Dubner details his upbringing as the youngest of eight in a Catholic family, the product of two Jewish parents who independently converted.
- PS: He humorously recounts the family's bizarre birthday cake "silence or chicken feed" tradition. (09:06)
- Explains his journey to investigating and ultimately "returning" to Judaism in adulthood.
- "I ended up kind of returning to Judaism myself...it was an incredibly moving, difficult, satisfying experience." (14:43)
- The complexities and pain of family rupture caused by conversion, including his parents being cut off by their Jewish families (17:03), and how he managed reconciliation with his mother with help from Cardinal O'Connor, applying the principle of "the primacy of an informed conscience." (21:57)
- On dual identity:
- "I believe curiosity is natural for everyone...I think all of us are really curiosity engines. And if you can manage to get into adulthood with that drive intact, it makes life a lot more interesting." (26:22)
3. Curiosity as a Personal and Professional Compass
(26:22 - 33:39)
- Dubner credits his cross-cultural upbringing with instilling a lifelong curiosity about belonging, belief, and the hidden drivers behind behavior.
- Shares details about upcoming projects—a new TV show that blends the investigative spirit of Freakonomics Radio with visual, in-depth human conversation.
- "I want to have conversations...less about a topic and more conversations with a person—how people work." (32:04)
4. Reputation vs. Character—Lessons from Hero Worship
(33:39 - 41:11)
- Dubner recounts his childhood idolization of Franco Harris, the famed Pittsburgh Steelers running back, and his later sobering encounters with Harris as an adult journalist and author.
- "I came looking for a savior, but what I found was a man. And maybe that's the truer gift." (40:41, reading from Confessions of a Hero Worshiper)
- The story highlights the theme of separating public reputation from personal character, and how real growth comes from accepting nuance and imperfection in others.
5. The Transition from Musician to Writer
(44:04 - 48:05)
- Dubner describes his formative years in the rock band The Right Profile (yes, named after the Clash song), his love for blues and piano, and his decision to leave the band as they approached major-label success—a choice driven by a desire for creative autonomy and a more stable existence.
- "I'm not sure I want to lead a life where my main professional activity is drawing attention to myself...So, yeah, I decided to quit the band." (47:19)
6. Writing Philosophy, Confidence, and Individual Voice
(52:41 - 59:50)
- Explains why he learned more from "shitty writing" than great writing (citing Tim Ferriss), as bad examples sharpened his sense of personal creative direction.
- "Every one of us is this wild little science experiment ... Be you." (54:48)
- Advocates for "swinging your swing" in writing and creativity, rather than copying others.
- Shares honestly about the pain of rejection and the necessity of building confidence on one's own terms.
7. The Freakonomics Story: Origins, Title, and Impact
(60:29 - 66:07)
- The book began as a serendipitous collaboration with economist Steven Levitt after a magazine profile. The title Freakonomics made both authors laugh, despite publisher resistance.
- "We had this manuscript...with no unifying theme whatsoever—unlike Gladwell's books." (61:25)
- On what drives bestsellers in publishing: Incentives, imitation, luck, and the rarity of courage to do something actually new.
- "There’s one thing that is rare, is too rare. That thing is courage...the need to give yourself permission to be courageous about everything." (68:17)
8. Courage, Confidence & Mind as Muscle
(68:17 - 77:03)
- Dubner and Millman discuss the links between courage, confidence, and the need to intentionally "train the brain" like a muscle to avoid destructive rumination.
- "Your mind or brain is a muscle, and you can control it...being a bit more intentional is a huge, easy win for just about all of us." (71:06)
- Advice from psychologist Angela Duckworth, and struggles with persistent self-criticism.
9. Lessons from Error & Responsibility in Nonfiction
(77:22 - 81:42)
- Dubner reflects on his biggest regret from Freakonomics: Misreporting parts of the Stetson Kennedy story, then taking steps to correct the record in future editions and public columns.
- "That was a very, you know, that's a painful chapter. So I guess that's the one that I wish...there is no such thing as too much research." (78:41)
10. The Legacy of Freakonomics—Curiosity Without Cynicism
(81:42 - end)
- On storytelling’s role in journalism: Narrative is vital, but narrative with data is necessary for truth.
- "Storytelling is great, storytelling is the best, but storytelling with data is better." (82:29)
- Hopes the Freakonomics approach will help journalists and economists alike stay grounded in both empirical rigor and a focus on people.
- "Economics and people do go together, but you have to be conscious about that. It doesn't happen by accident." (88:30)
Notable Quotes & Timestamps
-
"I just think people need to understand that they need to give themselves permission to be courageous about everything. About who they are, about what they make, about what they think."
— Stephen Dubner (02:25, 68:17) -
"Curiosity is natural for everyone...I think all of us are really curiosity engines."
— Stephen Dubner (26:22) -
"I came looking for a savior, but what I found was a man. And maybe that's the truer gift."
— Stephen Dubner, quoting himself (40:41) -
"Storytelling is great, storytelling is the best, but storytelling with data is better."
— Stephen Dubner (82:29) -
"Economics and people do go together, but you have to kind of be conscious about that. It doesn't happen by accident."
— Stephen Dubner (88:30) -
"Every one of us is this wild little science experiment of genes and bones and muscles and synapses...be that, be you."
— Stephen Dubner (54:48)
Significant Timestamps
- 04:10 – Early influences, first published writing, the impact of teachers
- 09:06 – Family rituals, childhood fears, social dynamics
- 13:49 – Parents’ conversions & family rupture
- 21:57 – Reconciliation with his mother; Cardinal O'Connor’s advice on informed conscience
- 26:22 – Curiosity and its role in life and work
- 32:04 – New TV show concept and his intentions
- 34:24 – Hero worship and lessons from Franco Harris
- 44:10 – Musical path, formation and end of The Right Profile
- 52:41 – Social media and the struggle for authentic conversation
- 54:48 – On writing and building confidence in an authentic voice
- 61:25 – The origins and naming of Freakonomics
- 68:17 – Courage as foundational to creative and personal growth
- 71:06 – Using applied psychology to “train the brain”
- 78:41 – Correction of factual errors in Freakonomics and ethical responsibility
- 82:29 – Hopes for Freakonomics' enduring legacy in journalism and social science
Memorable Moments
- Dubner’s heartfelt appreciation of his teachers and his mother, and his honesty about the difficulties and reconciliations in his family life.
- His wry humor about book titles (“E. Ray Vision!”), musical failures, and the ironies of (sort-of) public anonymity.
- The raw honesty around learning from mistakes and striving for ethical rigor in public storytelling.
Conclusion
This deep-dive conversation with Stephen J. Dubner celebrates the spirit of curiosity, the ethical challenges of nonfiction, and the joy of continual reinvention. Listeners are left with a call to action: pursue genuine inquiry, cultivate courage, and recognize that every dataset, story, or problem contains a beating human heart.