Frances Rye (4:02)

That's not my favorite phrase, as people who know me know, but it is how the skill set is. Is often described, or at least it is how the skill set is often talked about in the workplace.

Anne Morris (4:15)

Yeah, and I like your use of the word skill set here, because one of the myths that we want to challenge today is that you either got it or you don't. You're a good talker or you're not. And in fact, talking like a leader, taking up space, leaning into your executive presence, these are all very learnable skills.

Frances Rye (4:35)

Yeah. I think language helps us lead at scale because people can read it, they can hear it.

Anne Morris (4:43)

I have become increasingly convinced of the power of language to create our experience of life. And then when we are in positions of leadership, the power of language to then create other people's experience of their lives. And if we can bring just a little bit more intention to both of those practices, I think the impact can be profound. I also think it's a very primary source of friction, because on some level, I think we know this. We watch the variability in other people, we watch it in ourselves. It was a big source of friction for me early career because, to use an operational term, I was capable but not in control, and I didn't understand what the levers were, and it took me a minute to figure it out. And so I also think that's part of the motivation for these episodes is if we can help people get there even faster, then I think this is something that can really unlock your impact in the world.

Frances Rye (5:54)

In our language, the barriers are pebbles, not boulders.

Anne Morris (5:58)

Just how you like it, my dear. So let's go sweep away some pebbles.

Frances Rye (6:02)

Let's do it.

Anne Morris (6:07)

Okay, Francis. So our basic definition of leadership is that it is the practice of setting other people up for wild success. And as self distracting as leadership can be, it's fundamentally not about you. Now, when we turn to the challenge of communication, this is the North Star that we want people to fix their unwavering gaze on. It is not about you. So what does this look like in practice?

Frances Rye (6:37)

You know, the first person that comes to mind is. Was born in 1920.

Anne Morris (6:42)

So we're time traveling.

Frances Rye (6:43)

We're time traveling. When you go and visit with Irving Goffman. And Irving Goffman, who was a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, an institution that I hold very dear, he talked about face management. And what that meant to him was, how do you preserve the dignity for yourself and for others?

Anne Morris (7:05)

Talk like a leader. Sacrifice management, meaning saving face, not managing my own visage while I'm trying to be a leader.

Frances Rye (7:13)

Indeed.

Anne Morris (7:14)

Okay, so we're taking care of other people's dignity too.

Frances Rye (7:17)

Yes. And he gave it equal parts that you have to take care of your own dignity so that you're in a position to take care of other people's dignity. Even though he was a real academic back in the day, had very pragmatic advice. So for example, for ourselves, you know, if you mess up or something, he's like, just do a super quick repair. So if you conversationally mess up, if you say the wrong thing, say, oh, let me restate that, and keep going. In contrast, he said, people that draw a lot, oh, I'm so sorry, I make a big deal about it. And hem. And ha. He's like, that's destroying your own face management. That's destroying your own dignity. So the quick in and out is one example of what you would do for yourself.

Anne Morris (7:59)

Okay, so where we're starting is at this idea of face management. And the point you're making is we have to manage both our own dignity, the dignity of others. If at any point we stumble along the way, what Dr. Goffman teaches us is acknowledge it, don't pretend it didn't happen. Repair it quickly, move on, no damage done. Will you give us a quick example of that?

Frances Rye (8:21)

Yeah. If I am talking and I stumble and I mispronounce your name, pronounce it correctly, go forward. I don't have to explain why I pronounced it incorrectly. What I was thinking at the time, I'm really sorry, I don't have to dwell on any of that quick repair, let me rest. And the phrase he would use is, let me restate, say it again and then move on. And that. That was plenty.

Anne Morris (8:46)

I love that phrase. Let me restate. Feel like it is totally underused in the workplace.

Frances Rye (8:52)

Yeah, yeah. So that was for yourself. Where he spent most of his time is on how do you help others? What he would say is, help other people avoid embarrassment conversationally. That was one of our objectives, is how can I help the other person do better?

Anne Morris (9:10)

I love that. It's making me think of Amanda Ripley, who we had on the show, and her work on conflict, and how this idea of humiliation or embarrassment, it's like the neutron bomb of the human experience. It affects us profoundly. We never forget it. And so I like starting this conversation at minimum, and at all costs, avoid that experience for the other person. And he offers some tactical ways to do that. So what are some ways that we can prevent this extraordinary event?

Frances Rye (9:50)

So you know how when somebody is talking and they get, like, lost in the middle of what they're saying, and they're just saying a lot of things, and you can almost watch around the room how people's impression of them is lowering, and it's gonna get to a level where it can get embarrassing. He's like, go in there, restate what they said, and give them credit for the restatement.

Anne Morris (10:13)

I see you do this in the classroom a lot, and students are learning. They're fumbling around, and you're going and getting them and making their offering useful to the class.

Frances Rye (10:23)

And to me, it's just polishing what was already there, doing it in a way that they're grateful for, that everybody else sees as a model so that they can help them do it too. And then importantly, later on in the class, when their ideas. Idea gets referenced back to. Even if people reference back to my restatement, I don't go anywhere near the credit. I step aside and have the credit land on them to complete the loop. And so it not only avoids embarrassment, it actually builds esteem.

Anne Morris (10:56)

I love that. So where we're starting in this exploration is it's almost with our orientation. It's this orientation to take care of others, and let's put some guardrails around their emotional experience of the interaction.

Frances Rye (11:12)

I think that's right.

Anne Morris (11:13)

Excellent. All right, where are we going next?

Frances Rye (11:15)

We'll fast forward 20 years. Okay. And we'll go to Deborah Tannen. And Deborah Tannen is a Columbia University professor, and she would talk a lot about conversational alignment. Now, as an operations professor, I love the word alignment, but conversational alignment I hadn't thought of until reading Deborah Tannen's work. And essentially, what this means is you want to be on the same frequency. If it's A word you use, often the same frequency as the other person. So an example of this. Someone comes to you to describe a problem they're having. You have two choices. You probably have many choices, but two prominent choices, hear it or fix it. If they are coming to you to be heard and you fix, that goes badly. And if they're coming to you to be fixed and you hear goes badly. That's what she means by conversational alignment is understanding what the perspective is of the other person and matching them, not matching your instinct, matching what they need.

Anne Morris (12:27)

This really resonates when I think back on experience in my life, when there has been a disconnect in a relationship with an audience, however small, maybe it's just one other person, this is often the source of it. And I do think there's the self distraction. Like I came in with an agenda and I didn't react to the information I was getting in terms of where an audience was or what this other person needed. And so this idea of alignment is pause, you know, figure, get on the same page, and then attempt this thing called communication.

Frances Rye (13:02)

Yeah, I'm a notorious fixer. And so for a very long time, people would come in with a problem and I would be 90 yards down the field on fixing, and they just wanted to be heard totally.

Anne Morris (13:15)

How does this translate to higher stakes communications moments like giving a presentation or making a comment in a team meeting for you?

Frances Rye (13:28)

I still think it's understanding the frequency of the room. So, for example, the classic way I see this playing out is that somebody might bring up an emotional obstacle that they have and there'll be someone in the room that will hear that there's an emotional obstacle and they have already given a logical explanation and they'll double down on the logical explanation. They'll just keep stacking up the logic bricks. And I watch it have not only no influence, no positive influence on the person, but they're feeling more and more unheard through it, and vice versa too. By the way, if I'm having a logical problem and you keep layering on emotional Legos, that's also gonna be problematic. That to me, is what I see most often in the workplace. In fact, I often say to folks, we need more bilingual people in the workplace. And by bilingual, I can speak logic to logic obstacles, and I can speak emotion to emotional obstacles.

Anne Morris (14:31)

I love that. And then Tannen also talks about the role of silence in this whole equation.

Frances Rye (14:37)

Yeah.

Anne Morris (14:38)

And what is the insight there that's useful to us?

Frances Rye (14:41)

Our friend and colleague Tom delong has long said that all ambiguous information is interpreted negatively. And Deborah Tannen, if she heard Tom say that, would, I believe, agree with that. And so to avoid that, what she would say is narrate your silence. So instead of just being silent and then the other person can fill it in with whatever distorted story they want, you can say, I'm thinking through this. Just that now you're not left to wonder and make up and hallucinate about the silence. Because I've narrated it. Silence is one of the most oft misinterpreted conversational aspects.

Anne Morris (15:25)

Yeah, that's a really powerful habit just to get in the habit of filling in the blanks for people. Can we think about this one as meet an audience where they are?

Frances Rye (15:37)

Yeah, I like that. And meet where they are. And let's realize that our message might also need the meta narration. So I'm gonna give you three ways to think about this and then chunk, chunk, chunk. Great question. Let me just gather my thoughts for a moment. Yeah, now the silence is understood. So I think we want to have our thoughts and we want sometimes the metacognition around our thoughts.

Anne Morris (16:08)

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Anne Morris (19:49)

All right, okay. So I'm managing dignity and I'm meeting people where they are. I have a few of the bricks on this foundation.

Frances Rye (19:57)

Well, let's go forward another 20 years,

Anne Morris (19:59)

then back into our time machine.

Frances Rye (20:02)

And if we go forward another 20 years, we get to Deborah Gruenfeld, who is a beloved professor at Stanford. And she's one of those scholars that does lots of experiments. So she'll hear good ideas and be like, oh, let me go test that in the lab. And really wonderful insights come out of. Come out of her laboratory. One of them, that, that is the one that's just stuck with me the most is what I would call pay attention to the crumbs. And what I mean by that is this talk like a leader. When we think we're the leader, when we get assigned the leader, we gotta be careful. She did experiments where she would randomly assign people to be the leaders. Literally randomly assign. And whatever exercise they're doing, in the middle of the exercise, they would bring in a plate of cookies. Whoever was randomly assigned the leader's role would eat more cookies and leave more crumbs. Whoa, whoa. Just by having been given the designation of leader. So when we say talk like a leader, we kind of want the good parts of Leader, which is, you know, I'm going to be more action oriented and less cookies and crumbs, parts of the leader. So talk like a leader and let's make sure we have good governance around it so that we protect ourselves.

Anne Morris (21:31)

And in your experience, what does that good governance look like?

Frances Rye (21:35)

You know, it's why CEOs need boards. When we get a designation of a leader, we stop having as much peripheral vision. We have more confidence that we're right. We stop seeking as much outside perspective. And so we need someone who's going to help us open the aperture. And I do think that, you know, boards are amazingly proactively helpful for CEOs. They're also the constraints and the boundaries for CEOs. And so I think the constraints so that we don't act too far. That's what good governance is to me. So the equivalent of our board for a CEO.

Anne Morris (22:20)

Right. And wherever I am in the organization, I can build my informal board or even an accountability partner on this one. Just keeps me in check.

Frances Rye (22:29)

I think that's right. And as you were just saying that, I was realizing one of the things we have in government are the three levels of government or the three arms of government. I think that's good governance, that you don't give all of the power to one. Because by simply being designated the leader, you might think you have outsized influence. And so we got to put in some structural terms. And then to your point, if you aren't in a position to have structural terms, let's informally put it in place. Because Deborah Gruenfeld found more cookies, more crumbs, was really widespread. It happens to all of us. We shouldn't assume it's not going to happen to me.

Anne Morris (23:09)

Beautiful. Okay, so I feel like these first three points are setting me up for success from a mindset standpoint. And this last one, I just have to keep in mind that if I'm given a title, right, if I'm walking into the room with some kind of title or some kind of status, there is this greater temptation to care more about what I have to say than what the people are here to hear or I don't know. How would you describe summary form?

Frances Rye (23:41)

Yeah, I think that for this one, I become less service oriented. I become more self distracted as opposed to other distracted. I'm not paying as much attention to you and I'm not optimizing for you as much as I'm optimizing for all of my great ideas.

Anne Morris (23:59)

Love it. All right, so now let's get to the kind of meat of how we traditionally think about talking, which are the words that are coming out of my mouth. So the great Chris Argyros, father of this whole field of organizational behavior, offered uncharacteristically, offered a simple framework for how to think about this, which is that you want to balance advocacy. You have things to say, you have points you want to make. You need to persuade people that your plan of action worldview are the right ones. You want to balance that with this other critical task which he called inquiry, which is you want to explore what other people think, create a learning environment, update your priors, make your decisions better with the influence of others. You got to do both. I think his counsel was to aim directionally for 5050 and his observation was as leaders and as we rise in the hierarchy and get very comfortable with these titles in general, we are overbalanced on advocacy and underweighted on inquiry. But let's just take that advocacy piece as the first part of this. How do we get that right? And Francis, you have this beautiful metric that you use and demonstrate, I think very beautifully, which is you want to aim for economy of language. One of your favorite metrics is quality per unit time. So tell us about quality per unit time and communication.

Frances Rye (25:52)

Yeah, it is my favorite metric of all time anywhere, quality per unit time. And what that means in this case is for the amount of time I'm speaking, how good is my quality? And if I'm going to speak for twice as much, I have to double the quality or I'm getting worse. And what this really does for me, because I watch people use a lot of time and say relatively little. And then I ask them take half the space and say it again. And then I do it again. I say take half the space and say it again. So they now have one fourth the space they had.

Anne Morris (26:31)

I've seen you do this in real time coaching and it's.

Frances Rye (26:34)

And here's the founding thing, I then ask everyone in the room to vote on and they're like, oh my gosh, the quarter of the time was so much more potent. And so what it's essentially is when you are going to persuade, don't dilute your persuasive abilities by watering it down with too many words. We want to get really high quality per unit time per word said. And so we got to think about it really carefully and I believe practice it to get there.

Anne Morris (27:05)

Yeah, I think there's incredible power in practice here. I think there's also something very helpful in just elevating this as the goal.

Frances Rye (27:15)

Yes.

Anne Morris (27:15)

Any other tactical advice here?

Frances Rye (27:18)

I have another one which might sound like it's counter to that, because it doesn't mean I don't want you to speak for a long time. It just means I need you to be adding value every moment you're speaking.

Anne Morris (27:25)

Yep.

Frances Rye (27:27)

So one way to speak longer and add value is in the effective use of repetition. So when we use repetition effectively, it's like we took a highlighter to the conversation. Yep. And we got to underscore it. We got to say it again. Or if it was really provocative, we give people a moment to gather themselves and we say it again so that they can emotionally find their footing. So I think even in a quality per unit time world, it is worth skillfully putting in some repetition to serve as the highlighter of the conversation.

Anne Morris (28:06)

I love it.

Frances Rye (28:06)

So what I often ask people to do is just draw a curve with peaks and valleys. And the peak is. The curve is, oh, my gosh, I'm really. I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you. And then just have the curve go down. When I got a little lost. Oop, I think I stopped listening. I started thinking about my to do list. Like, just like how locked in you are to the person speaking, going high and low and high and low. And then at the end, the accountability partner. What I would do is just circle the highs and tell us about the highs. I actually don't even think you have to talk about the lows. Just talk about the highs with someone and you will visit the peaks more often.

Anne Morris (28:46)

Yeah. Yeah, that resonates. I also find that having some phrases in your pocket that allow you to exit a comment can be really helpful.

Frances Rye (28:58)

What might that look like?

Anne Morris (28:59)

One place where people get lost is in not exiting fast enough after they make their point. So they will say words that are less powerful than the point they just made, and we will follow them down the trail, and the trail gets less and less interesting. So if you have an exit in mind or just take the exit, it's like once you get the yes, stop selling. You know, once you make your point, get out. Yeah. I spent a minute as a consultant at one of the big firms early in my career. I did not last. It was not a great fit. But one of the things we were coached to do even as very early career, like, baby, early career, was to add value in every conversation. And it's a stressful bar. And I think part of it is because you are in the industry of creating value in this way. And so Particularly in those environments that was. This was one of the skills that people were constantly working on and coaching each other on.

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Anne Morris (31:52)

Okay, so let's go to the second half of this ratio which is inquiry. And I, we cannot, I think I'm speaking for both of us and saying that we cannot overstate the power of inquiry and the kind of fuel that's driving it, which is genuine curiosity. It is your superpower in the workplace. And it competes with this other powerful poll that is judgment. And it literally competes because curiosity and judgment don't play well together. They essentially can't coexist in the human brain. But the idea here is to really get in touch with curiosity. And the way to do it is simple. Start asking questions. And before you say I don't want to ask questions because most people don't have interesting answers, you can fake this one till you make it.

Frances Rye (32:50)

This is astounding to me and I've watched you, if I've watched you do it, it's amazing.

Anne Morris (32:54)

And the only reason this works, because you can ask a question you're not interested in. But if the question is good enough, it's almost impossible to not become interested in the answer. By the time the other person stops talking. It's almost action preceding thought, which is another thing I'm increasingly convinced of, that this intelligence flows from the body to the mind, not the other way around.

Frances Rye (33:26)

Amazing.

Anne Morris (33:26)

I love it. The learning environment, the foundation of psychological safety. Everything gets better when you ask good questions.

Frances Rye (33:34)

I was reading the Daily Offering from Chris Voss.

Anne Morris (33:39)

Who is Chris Voss.

Frances Rye (33:40)

Chris Voss is a former kidnapping negotiator for the FBI. Great, wonderful author on negotiations. And he has started putting out daily short video clips that offer just helpful negotiating or conversational tactics. This week I remember listening to him and he said, don't ask someone what they do. To your point, not a good question because you're not going to be that interested in the answer and they're not going to be that interested in saying it. But what's a very good question? So how to upgrade? You can go from a bad question to a good question with a pretty small tweak, which is what do you love about what you do? It will be, to your point, almost impossible not to be curious and then interested in the wonderful ways that that conversation might go. You're going to learn not about their job, but about what they love. There's so many openings that come from that. And so I do think, to your point, the fake it until you make it. And also, like, we really want to experiment. We love experimentation. Try near forms of the first question that comes to mind that you could tweak to become more Voss like, and

Anne Morris (34:58)

this category of questions, I mean, this is really something that you can work on in advance and come into the room with a couple that really work for you. I mean, you have a couple favorites. Francis, in managing conversation, you know, who can articulate an alternate point of view?

Frances Rye (35:15)

Yeah. Who can articulate an alternate point of view if a conversation feels stuck? That is my go to question. And honestly, I go to it earlier and earlier in conversations because if you can diverge early in a conversation, you have a chance to go much further than the natural rhythm of the room.

Anne Morris (35:37)

Yeah. Pick your 5 favorite and have them ready in the. You know, what are we not thinking about? What does success look like? What does success look like? How will we know if we get this right?

Frances Rye (35:48)

If you had magic dust and you could sprinkle it on this situation, what would be different?

Anne Morris (35:54)

Yeah, all of these we use over and over and over again because they work. And so really figuring out what works for you to open up a conversation in a way where everyone in the room is getting better.

Frances Rye (36:08)

And what I would say is if you're on a hunt for good questions because it is context specific in many places, as you're listening to other people talk, watch which questions land and write them down and just have a little question list.

Anne Morris (36:22)

Yeah, for sure. I love it. Okay, Francis, we are going to start to wrap this up. I'm going to ask you to kind of summarize what we covered. Solving for high quality per unit time.

Frances Rye (36:38)

Let me give it a go because

Anne Morris (36:39)

we're going to put you on display here.

Frances Rye (36:41)

All right.

Anne Morris (36:42)

And again, in part two of this, we're going to get super tactical. A lot of this is is about getting you in the right mindset and posture to go in and being be a really effective communicator from your position as. As having some status in the room here.

Frances Rye (37:01)

Yeah. I think if you want to talk like a leader and leadership is about making others better as a result of your presence. Right. It's about in a way that lasts into your absence. A leader is in service of others. Preserve their dignity and your dignity along the way. Be aligned, read the room. Be aligned with what their needs are. Pay attention to what the designation of leader might do to you in a narrowing way and balance advocacy and inquiry as you're speaking. Advocacy, quality per unit time tighter is better. Inquiry, the art of a beautiful question which comes from curiosity, own curiosity. Many things are going to go well.

Anne Morris (37:49)

Watch and learn, baby. That was beautiful.

Frances Rye (37:56)

Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Your participation helps us make great episodes like this one. So please keep reaching out directly if you want to figure out any questions about your workplace problem together, send us a message. You can email, call, text fixableed.com or 234- Fixable. That's 234-349-2253.

Anne Morris (38:26)

Fixable is a podcast from ted.

Frances Rye (38:28)

It's hosted by me, Anne Morris and me, Frances Fry.

Anne Morris (38:32)

This episode was produced by Rahima Nassa from Pushkin Industries. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Daniela Baloraiso and Roxanne Hylash.

Frances Rye (38:43)

And our show was mixed by Louis at Storyyard.

Anne Morris (39:01)

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