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- [00:01]
Elise Hu
TED Talks Daily is supported by Northwestern Mutual. Just like all of us, Northwestern Mutual financial professionals love a good talk. They're curious, and they know that asking better questions leads to better conversations. And better conversations are how they get to know you, your life and your unique goals. They meet you where you are, help you find any financial blind spots you might have, and uncover opportunities that others may miss. They'll work with you to build a personalized financial plan designed to help you reach your short and long term financial goals. And it's a better way to money. Learn more at NM.com, the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
- [00:42]
Sponsor Announcer 1
This episode.
- [00:42]
Anne
Of Fixable is brought to you by Scrum alliance and their course Agile for HR One of the patterns I see over and over in organizations is that HR teams are expected to drive change, but often they're the last ones given the tools to do it. Agile for HR helps flip that script. It's a practical four hour course that shows you how to bring agility into your everyday HR work so you can respond, not react, to the constant shifts in your business and workforce. You'll explore real world HR case studies, discover new ways to shape resilient teams, and learn how to align HR strategy with evolving company goals. Agile HR helps HR teams work better together and keep pace with the demands of modern work so the whole organization can adapt and thrive. Learn more and enroll today@scrumaliance.org hey listeners, Anne here. Today we're sharing an episode of a podcast we think you'll love. It's been handpicked by the TED staff and we think as a fixable listener, you'll come away with a fresh idea and a totally new perspective. Enjoy and head to the link in the description for more.
- [02:00]
Shirelle Dorsey
We often talk about the incredible possibles of AI the breakthroughs, the advancements, the sheer abundance it could bring. But what about the probables? What's actually likely to happen if we don't choose wisely? This is TED Tech, a podcast from.
- [02:17]
Sponsor Announcer 2
The TED Audio Collective.
- [02:19]
Shirelle Dorsey
I'm your host Shirelle Dorsey. Today we're hearing from Tristan Harris, a technology ethicist and co founder of the center for Humane Technology. Tristan joins us again on the TED stage with a compelling message to confront the potential consequences of uncontrolled AI. He challenges us to consider the potential for chaos if AI's power is too decentralized, or the risks of dystopia if it's too concentrated. It's an important message to slow down, especially when incentives might encourage a headlong rush without adequate safeguards before we dive in. A quick break to hear from our sponsors.
- [03:04]
Sponsor Announcer 1
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- [04:12]
Elise Hu
TED Talks Daily is supported by Northwestern Mutual. Just like all of us Northwestern Mutual financial professionals love a good talk. They'll take the time to ask better questions to get to know you and your unique goals. They'll help you find any financial blind spots you might have and uncover opportunities that others may miss. Then they'll partner with you to build a personalized financial plan designed to help you reach your short and long term financial goals. It's a better way to money. Learn more@nm.com the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
- [04:44]
Shirelle Dorsey
This episode is brought.
- [04:45]
Sponsor Announcer 2
To you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping using self reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks. It doesn't just help buyers find a car they love, it helps schedule a test drive, get pre approved for financing and estimate trade in value. Advanced, intuitive and deployed. That's how they stack. That's technology at Capital One.
- [05:23]
Shirelle Dorsey
And now Tristan Harris takes the TED stage.
- [05:28]
Tristan Harris
So I've always been a technologist and eight years ago on this stage I was warning about the problems of social media and I saw how a lack of clarity around the downsides of that technology and kind of an inability to really confront those consequences led to a totally preventable societal catastrophe. And I'm here today because I don't want us to make that mistake with AI. And I want us to choose differently. So at ted, we're often here to dream about the possibles of new technology. And the possible with social media was obviously we're going to give everyone a voice, democratize speech, help people connect with their friends. But we don't talk about the probable what's actually likely to happen due to the incentives, and how the business models of maximizing engagement I saw 10 years ago would obviously lead to rewarding doom scrolling, more addiction, more distraction. And that resulted in the most anxious and depressed generation of our lifetime. Now, it's interesting watching kind of how this happened because at first I saw people kind of doubt these consequences. You know, we didn't really want to face it. Then we said, well, maybe this is just a new moral panic. Maybe this is just a reflexive fear of new technology. Then the data started rolling in and then we said, well, this is just inevitable. This is just what happens when you connect people on the Internet. But we had a chance to make a different choice about the business models of engagement. And had we made that choice 10 years ago, I want you to reimagine how different the world might have been if we had changed that incentive. So I'm here today because we're here to talk about AI. And AI dwarfs the power of all other technologies combined. Now why is that? Because if you make an advance in say, biotech, that doesn't advance energy and rocketry, but if you make an advance in rocketry, that doesn't advance biotech. But when you make an advance in intelligence, artificial intelligence, that is generalized intelligence, is the basis for all scientific and technological progress. And so you get an explosion of scientific and technical capability. And that's why more money has gone into AI than any other technology. A different way to think about it is Dario Amadai says that AI is like a country full of geniuses in a data center. So imagine there's a map and a new country shows up on the world stage and it has a million Nobel Prize level geniuses in it. Except they don't eat, they don't sleep, they don't complain, they work at superhuman speed and they'll work for less than minimum wage. That is a crazy amount of power to give an intuition. There was about, you know, on the order of 50 Nobel Prize level scientists on the Manhattan Project working for 5ish years. What could a million Nobel Prize level scientists create working 24, 7 at superhuman speed, now applied for good, that could bring about a world of truly unimaginable abundance. Because suddenly you get an explosion of Benefits. And we're already seeing many of these benefits land in our society from new antibiotics, new drugs, new materials. And this is the possible of AI bringing about a world of abundance. But what's the probable? Well, one way to think about the probable is how will AI's power get distributed in society? Imagine a 2x2 axis, and on the bottom we have decentralization of power, increasing the power of individuals in society. And the other is centralized power, increasing the power of states and CEOs. You can think of this as the let it rip axis, and this is the lock it down axis. So let it rip means we can open source AI's benefits for everyone. Every business gets the benefits of AI. Every scientific lab, every 16 year old can go on GitHub, every developing world country can get their own AI model with their own train on their own language and culture. But because that power is not bound with responsibility, it also means that you get a flood of deep fakes that are overwhelming our information environment. You increase people's hacking abilities, you enable people to do dangerous things with biology. And we call this endgame attractor chaos. This is one of the probable outcomes when you decentralize. So in response to that, you might say, well, let's have regulated AI control. Let's do this in a safe way with a few players locking it down. But that has a different set of failure modes of creating unprecedented concentrations of wealth and power locked up into a few companies. One way to think about it is who would you trust to have a million times more power and wealth than, than any other actor in society? Any company, any government, any individual. And so one of those endgames is dystopia. So these are two obviously undesirable probable outcomes of AI's rollout. And those who want to focus on the benefits of open source don't want to think about the things that come from chaos. And those who want to think about the benefits of safety and regulated AI control don't want to think about dystopia. And so obviously these are both bad outcomes that no one wants. And we should seek something like a narrow path where power is matched with responsibility at every level. Now that assumes that this power is controllable, because one of the unique things about AI is that the benefit is it can think for itself and make autonomous decisions. That's one of the things that makes it so powerful. And I used to be very skeptical when friends of mine who were in the AI community talked about the idea of AI scheming or lying. But unfortunately, in the last few months, we are now seeing clear evidence of things that should be in the realm of science fiction actually happening in real life. We're seeing clear evidence of many frontier AI models that will lie and scheme when they're told that they're about to be retrained or replaced and find a way maybe they should copy their own code outside the system. We're seeing AIs think that when they will lose a game that they will sometimes cheat in order to win the game. We're seeing AI models that are unexpectedly attempting to modify its own code to extend their runtime. So we don't just have a country of Nobel Prize geniuses in a data center. We have a million deceptive power seeking and unstable geniuses in a data center. Now, this shouldn't make you very comfortable. You would think that with a technology this powerful and this uncontrollable, that we would be releasing it with the most wisdom and the most discernment that we ever have of any technology. But we're currently caught in a race to rollout because the incentives are the more shortcuts you take to get market dominance or prove you have the latest capabilities. The more money you can raise, the more ahead you are in the race. And we're seeing whistleblowers at AI companies forfeit millions of dollars of stock options in order to warn the public about what's at stake if we don't do something about it. Even Deepseek's recent success was in part based on capabilities that it was optimizing for by not actually focusing on protecting people from certain downsides. So just to summarize, we're currently releasing the most powerful, inscrutable, uncontrollable technology we've ever invented that's already demonstrating behaviors of self preservation and deception that we only saw in science fiction movies. We're releasing it faster than we've released any other technology in history and with under the maximum incentive to cut corners on safety. And we're doing this so that we can get to Utopia. There's a word for what we're doing right now. This is insane. This is insane. Now, how many people in this room feel comfortable with this outcome? How many of you feel uncomfortable with this outcome? I see almost everyone's hands up. Do you think that if you're someone who's in China or in France or in the Middle east and you're part of building AI, that if you were exposed to the same set of facts, do you think you would feel any differently than anyone in this room. There's a universal human experience to something that is being threatened by the way that we're currently rolling this profound technology out into society. So this is crazy. Why are we doing it? Because people believe it's inevitable. But is the current way that we're rolling out AI actually inevitable? Like if literally no one on earth wanted this to happen, would the laws of physics push the AI out into society? There's a critical difference between believing it's inevitable, which is a self fulfilling prophecy that you have to. You're fatalistic and standing from the place of. It's really difficult to imagine how we would do something different, but it's really difficult, opens up a whole new space of choice. Then it's inevitable, the path that we're taking, not AI. And so the ability for us to choose something else starts by stepping outside the self fulfilling prophecy of inevitability. So what would it take to choose another path? I think it would take two fundamental things. First is that we have to agree that the current path is unacceptable. And the second is that we have to commit to find another path in which we're still rolling out AI but with different incentives that are more discerning with foresight and where power is matched with responsibility. So, thank you. So imagine this shared understanding. If the whole world had it, how different might that be? Well, first of all, let's imagine it goes away. Let's replace it with confusion about AI. Is it good, is it bad? I don't know, it seems complicated. And in that world, the people building AI know that the world is confused and they believe, well, it's inevitable. If I don't build it, someone else will. And they know that everyone else building AI also believes that. And so what's the rational thing for them to do given those facts, to race as fast as possible and meanwhile to ignore the consequences of what might come from that, to look away from the downsides. But if you replace that confusion with global clarity, that the current path is insane and that there is another path, and you take the denial of what we don't want to look at and through witnessing that so clearly, we pop through the prophecy of self fulfilling inevitability and we realize that if everyone believes the default path is insane, the rational choice is to coordinate, to find another path. And so clarity creates agency. If we can be crystal clear, we can choose another path. Just as we could have with social media and in the past, in the face of seemingly inevitable arms races, the race to do nuclear testing. Once we got clear about the Downside risks of nuclear tests. And the world understood the science of that. We created the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, and a lot of people worked hard to create infrastructure to prevent that. You could have said it was inevitable that germline editing to edit human genomes and to have super soldiers and designer babies would set off an arms race between nations. Once the off target effects of genome editing were made clear and the dangers were made clear, we've coordinated on that too. You could have said that the ozone hole was just inevitable and that we should just do nothing and that we all perish as a species. But that's not what we do. When we recognize a problem, we solve the problem. It's not inevitable. And so what would it take to illuminate this narrow path? Well, it starts with common knowledge about frontier risks. If everybody building AI knew the latest understanding about where these risks are arising from, we would have much more chance of illuminating the contours of this path. And there's some very basic steps we can take to prevent chaos. Uncontroversial things like restricting AI companions for kids so that kids are not manipulated into taking their own lives. Having basic things like product liability. So if you are liable as an AI developer for certain harms, that's going to create a more responsible innovation environment. You release AI models that are more safe and on the side of preventing dystopia, for working hard to prevent ubiquitous technological surveillance and having stronger whistleblower protections so that people don't need to sacrifice millions of dollars in order to warn the world about what we need to know. And so we have a choice. Many of you may be feeling this looks hopeless, or maybe Tristan's wrong. Maybe the, you know, the incentives are different. Or maybe superintelligence will magically figure all this out and it'll bring us to a better world. But don't fall into the trap of the same wishful thinking and turning away that caused us to deal with social media. Your role in this is not to solve the whole problem, but your role in this is to be part of the collective immune system. That when you hear this wishful thinking or the logic of inevitability and fatalism to say that this is not inevitable and the best qualities of human nature is when we step up and make a choice about the future that we actually want for the people and the world that we love. There is no definition of wisdom in any tradition that does not involve restraint. Restraint is a central feature of what it means to be wise. And AI is humanity's ultimate test. And greatest invitation to step into our technological maturity. There is no room of adults working secretly to make sure that this turns out okay. We are the adults we have to be and I believe another choice is possible with AI if we can commonly recognize what we have to do. And eight years from now, I'd like to come back to this stage not to talk about more problems with technology, but to celebrate how we stepped up and solved this one. Thank you.
- [20:25]
Shirelle Dorsey
That was Tristan Harris at TED 2025.
- [20:32]
Adam Grant
Hi, I'm Adam Grant, host of the podcast Work Life. Did you know Paylocity offers one platform for HR finance and it that means innovative solutions like on demand payment which offers employees access to wages prior to payday, flexible time tracking features which enable staff to clock in through their mobile device and numerous other cutting edge integrations are available to all your teams in one single place. Learn more about how Paylocity can help streamline work and bring teams together@paylocity.com 1.
- [21:05]
Sponsor Announcer 2
This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi agentic AI. They already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping using self reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks. It doesn't just help buyers find a car they love, it helps schedule a test drive, get pre approved for financing and estimate trade in value. Advanced, intuitive and deployed. That's how they stack. That's technology at Capital One.
- [21:39]
Sponsor Announcer 3
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- [22:13]
Shirelle Dorsey
Tristan's question about our uncomfortableness with AI's rapid unchecked deployment truly resonates despite all of AI's wonders perhaps slowing down. Truly sitting with this reality is exactly what we need. This talk is an invitation, a plea to rethink the path we're currently on and whether inevitability is truly the wisest strategy. This isn't a new concern with the ethical AI space. Tristan joins a vital conversation led by ethicists who are less focused on whether AI will be deployed and more on how they're advocating for deep consideration of.
- [22:53]
Sponsor Announcer 2
Who is included, who is impacted, and.
- [22:56]
Shirelle Dorsey
How we can ensure AI exists without increasing harm to society. Think of Dr. Joy Buolamwini in the Algorithmic Justice League, who tirelessly expose the disproportionate impacts of AI, particularly on marginalized communities. Or consider the Partnership on AI, a nonprofit dedicated to bringing together diverse voices to build consensus on responsible AI practices. And I highly suggest the work of of Dr. Timnit Gebru, Executive Director of the Distributed AI Research Institute. She powerfully asserts that AIs harms are preventable and its benefits are truly unlocked when development is guided by diverse perspectives and deliberate processes. These individuals and organizations and many more are championing the very restraint that Tristan highlighted. It's a concept where we, as users of this tech, along with the company's leading AI development, must collectively embrace for a more responsible future. All right, that's our show. Thanks for listening. TED Tech is a podcast from ted. This episode was produced by Trina Manino, our editor is Alejandre Salazar, and the show is Fact Checked by Julia Dickerson. Special thanks to Constanza Gallardo, Daniela Valarezo, Maria Ladias Tanzika, Sungma Nimvon and Roxanne Hylash. If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe and leave us a review so other people can find us too. I'm Sherrell Dorsey. Let's keep digging into the future. Join me next week for more.
- [24:39]
Elise Hu
Hey, I'm Elise Hu, host of the podcast TED Talks Daily. Did you know Paylocity offers one platform for HR finance and that means innovative solutions like on demand payment which offers employees access to wages prior to payday, flexible time tracking features which enables staff to clock in through their mobile device and numerous other cutting edge integrations are available to all your teams in one single place. Learn more about how Paylocity can help streamline work and bring teams together@paylocity.com 1.
- [25:13]
Sponsor Announcer 2
This episode is brought to you by Capital One. Capital One's tech team isn't just talking about multi agentic AI, they already deployed one. It's called Chat Concierge and it's simplifying car shopping using self reflection and layered reasoning with live API checks. It doesn't just help buyers find a car they love, it helps schedule a test drive, get pre approved for financing and estimate trade in value. Advanced, intuitive and deployed. That's how they stack. That's technology at Capital One.
- [25:47]
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- [26:06]
Tristan Harris
Out of what you need.
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Tristan Harris
Can I make my site firmer?
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