Why you should get good at being bad

Summary

Podcast Summary: Fixable (TED)

Episode: "Why you should get good at being bad"

Air Date: January 27, 2025
Hosts: Anne Morriss (CEO, best-selling author) & Frances Frei (Harvard Business professor)

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Episode Overview

In the season premiere, Anne Morriss and Frances Frei tackle a counterintuitive but crucial concept for personal and organizational success: the power and necessity of being intentionally “bad” in some areas to excel in others. Through lively conversation, practical frameworks, and memorable examples—including Steve Jobs, Southwest Airlines, and working moms—they illustrate how embracing trade-offs enables excellence, focus, and sustainable progress. The episode challenges the common impulse to try to be excellent at everything, arguing instead for strategic imperfection.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Courage to Be Bad (02:56–04:57)

• Key Idea: Success requires intentional trade-offs—excelling in some areas means underperforming or "phoning it in" elsewhere.
  • Frances Frei: “It sounds like it's a path to mediocrity or a path to laziness, but the truth is we need to make sacrifice in one area in order to make progress in another.” (03:14)
  • Strategic mediocrity is not laziness; it’s a deliberate decision to prioritize resources.

2. Why Trade-offs Matter: The Harvard Insight (03:31–03:47)

• Frances jokes about the two most important decisions for getting tenure and marrying Anne, highlighting the importance of intentional choices.

3. Case Study: MacBook Air & Product Trade-Offs (07:26–09:18)

• Apple’s MacBook Air: Steve Jobs prioritized design and weight over features (e.g., no CD-ROM, “good enough” battery), showing that to be best-in-class at one thing, you must consciously let other things fall behind.
  • Frances Frei: “To be the lightest weight laptop...he couldn't have an internal CD ROM drive.” (08:08)

4. The Impossible Triangle—Cost, Quality, Speed (10:01–10:51)

• In both products and services, you can’t excel at everything; classic example is the cost/quality/speed triangle where you can pick two but must sacrifice the third.

5. Services & "Defying Gravity" (11:15–11:51)

• In services, people often deny these trade-offs (“defy gravity”), but physics and reality still apply.
  • Anne Morriss: “You think delusionally that you can be great at everything.” (11:37)

6. Southwest Airlines & Strategic Discipline (11:51–15:54)

• Southwest succeeded by embracing trade-offs: lower prices and more flights but with fewer amenities.
  • Story of Herb Kelleher’s legendary memo explaining why Southwest wouldn’t transfer bags, cc’ing the entire company for clarity and alignment.
  • Frances Frei: “Anything that got in [the way of 30-minute turnarounds], they can't do, but they didn't do it because they didn't care....This was an empathetic no.” (15:49)
• Leadership Modeling: Top leaders must model and reinforce these tough choices, or organizational discipline falters.

7. How to Apply: Start with the Customer (16:09–19:29)

• Map out what customers value most; over-invest in those, under-invest in what matters less.
  • Frances Frei: “If you're going to be great at some things and bad at others, goodness, we better be great at the things they value most.” (17:01)
• Simulate customer priorities to surface differing internal assumptions before researching directly.

8. Choosing What to Be Great (and Bad) At (18:38–19:29)

• Focus operational energy on what customers care most about; take resources from lower-priority areas.
  • Anne Morriss: “Reverse engineer what do I have to give up in order to get there.” (19:19)

9. Competitor Awareness & Self-Deception (21:17–22:51)

• “Great” is relative—know your competition through the customer’s eyes.
• Danger of overrating oneself and underrating competitors; market research is essential, especially in competitive spaces.

10. The Personal Angle: Individuals Embracing Trade-Offs (22:51–28:15)

• The same principles apply to personal life and careers.
• Working Moms Example: Success comes from excelling deliberately at a few things at home and work, and accepting being “bad” at others.
  • Frances Frei: “You can either have the nobility of effort ... or you can have the nobility of excellence, and that is being willing to make trade offs. And you can't have both.” (25:05)
• Personal Story: Anne shares how she and Frances mapped their sons’ actual priorities, which did not include volunteering or elaborate meals, enabling more intentional parenting choices.

11. Trade-Offs Are Universal—Gravity Applies to Everyone (28:15–29:55)

• The concept is foundational—they’ve written about it in all three (soon four) of their books.
  • Frances Frei: “It's, I think, the only thing we have written about in all three books. Because society has not yet ... fully digest[ed]...” (29:14)
  • This will continue to be a theme throughout the new Fixable season.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Frances Frei: “If you have five things that you want to make investments in...pick some that you want to over invest in, but then you have to under invest in other things. It's almost an emotional obstacle that gets in the way.” (04:23)
• Anne Morriss: “The key is to be very intentional about those other areas as well.” (03:52)
• On the impossibility of perfection:
  • “You can't beat the competition at all three of these [cost, quality, speed]. One of them has to give. It's bad in the service of good.” — Frances Frei (10:15)
• On leadership responsibility:
  • “The CEO should say the same no as we want the front line to say, which isn't a mean no, it's a contextual no. It's a strategic no.” — Frances Frei (14:23)
• On parenting trade-offs:
  • “They did want us to be present when we were home...They didn't want us to be checking email in the bathroom. Again, hypothetical, hypothetical.” — Anne Morriss (26:38)

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Key Takeaways & Actionable Insights

• Be Deliberate About Failure:
  Decide what you will do badly—intentionally—so you can do something else exceptionally well.
• Let Go of Perfectionism:
  No organization or individual can be great at everything; attempting to do so creates mediocrity or exhaustion.
• Start with Stakeholders:
  Identify and prioritize what matters most to those you serve (customers, families, etc.) and allocate resources accordingly.
• Accept Emotional Challenge:
  The toughest part isn’t intellectual—it’s emotional. Leaders must model and reinforce difficult trade-offs.
• Re-examine Your Own Choices:
  Both at work and in life, figure out where you can afford to “phone it in” so you can be great where it’s most meaningful.

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Key Timestamps

• [02:56] – Why it’s essential to be willing to “suck” at some things
• [07:26] – MacBook Air: Excelling by intentionally dropping features
• [11:51] – Southwest Airlines: The “empathetic no” and strategic discipline
• [16:09] – Mapping customer priorities to guide trade-offs
• [22:51] – Applying the framework at the individual (especially working mothers)
• [28:15] – Why this lesson is perennial and will resurface throughout the season

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Episode Tone & Energy

Anne and Frances maintain an upbeat, candid, and witty repartee, blending research-backed frameworks with personal anecdotes and practical wisdom. Their chemistry as both professional partners and spouses brings warmth and authenticity to serious leadership topics, making the insights feel accessible and actionable.

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This summary skips over ads, sponsor messages, and non-content segments, focusing solely on the rich, practical content for leaders, teams, and individuals seeking meaningful improvement.

Transcript

[Anne Morris]

Hello everyone. We heard you loud and clear that you wanted advice on a special topic, and we have some exciting news for you. We're now planning a series on Fixable to help you with your confidence at work and we need your help to make it happen. What are your most pressing questions and problems when it comes to building and maintaining confidence in your job? Please give us a call at 234 Fixable. That's 234-349-2253 and let us know what's on your mind. We can't wait to hear from you.

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[Anne Morris]

Hello everyone. Welcome back to a brand new season of Fixable from the TED Audio Collective. I'm your host Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[Frances Fry]

And I'm your co host Frances Fry. I'm a Harvard Business School Professor. And I'm Anne's wife.

[Anne Morris]

Happy New Year to all of our fixers out there. We missed you desperately and we could not be more excited to be reunited today. We have so many great episodes in the works, we can't wait to share them with you. And in the meantime, please keep sending us questions so we can keep answering them on the show. And let us know if you want to join us to solve some problems together.

[Frances Fry]

Really, this is our idea of a good time.

[Anne Morris]

We're at a point in our lives where we are not fighting it anymore no more. So, for instance, to kick off this season of Possibility and New Beginnings, we wanted to explore an idea that you and I are really passionate about, which is that we all must have the courage to be bad at some things.

[Frances Fry]

It sounds like it's a path to mediocrity or a path to laziness, but the truth is we need to make sacrifice in one area in order to make progress in another. And so we want to be as intentional about that which we're going to be great at as that which we're going to be bad at.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. This is insight that got you tenure at the Harvard Business School.

[Frances Fry]

How important the insight that got me tenure at the Harvard Business School was to ask you to marry me. Let's be super honest.

[Anne Morris]

Oh, that's a whole other episode, my dear.

[Frances Fry]

All right, we'll wait till the Marry up episode.

[Anne Morris]

But yeah. What we want to get into today is how important it is in organizations to be willing to suck at some part of the value proposition. And the basic idea is that in order to excel where it matters most, as you said, you have to be willing to underperform. And according to your research, not just under form, really phone it in in some other areas. And the key is to be very intentional about those other areas as well.

[Frances Fry]

If you have five things that you want to make investments in, if you invest in all of them equally, that's one strategy. Another strategy is pick some that you want to over invest in, but then you have to under invest in other things. It's almost an emotional obstacle that gets in the way. We have forgetfulness.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. No, in our experience, this is not an intellectually difficult idea, but what's hard in execution is to really have the stomach for it.

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[Anne Morris]

All right, Frances, let's start this conversation with an example, because I feel like this is an idea that people really need to touch and feel to internalize.

[Frances Fry]

So the example that brings it to life most deeply for me is the example of the MacBook Air. I still remember when about 20 years ago, Steve Jobs strode across the stage carrying a manila envelope and every geek.

[Anne Morris]

It wasn't just the geek. We were all paying attention to this moment.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah, we were all paying attention and he was carrying a manila envelope and nobody had any idea what he had in that manila envelope. None of us dared to think that he was going to slide out a computer from that manila envelope. It was just unprecedented at that time. And he presented to us the MacBook Air as thin as an envelope. Now, to do that, to be best in class at weight, which is what his ambition was, he had to be worst in class at physical features. So to be the lightest weight laptop on the market, he couldn't have an internal CD ROM drive.

[Anne Morris]

Kids, ask your parents what that was. But am I hearing this right, Francis? So Jobs and his team of incredible designers, they imagined this machine that had never existed before, right. That was the lightest laptop ever with this beautiful design. And in order to deliver on this thing that they wanted most, right? This radically lightweight, beautiful design, they had to give up some other things. Now, the example of the CD ROM is literally something they gave up, right? There was no CD rom. But the other provocative part was that there were other things that they had to include. They had no choice but to include them. Like a battery, Right? That was good enough, but it wasn't great.

[Frances Fry]

Yes. And I think that you just detailed two of the most important parts of strategy, which is, what am I not gonna do and what am I not going to do?

[Anne Morris]

Well, I love that because we, you know, what am I not gonna do? That is like a famous definition of strategy. But what we hear a lot less about is what am I gonna do but not do very well? And I think that is the emotionally hard part of what you're trying to do.

[Frances Fry]

It's more difficult, quite honestly, it's much more difficult to do something poorly than to not do it at all.

[Anne Morris]

The other example that brings this to life for me is the impossible triangle. So tell us about the impossible triangle.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. So in construction is where it's usually used, which is there is very famously cost, quality, speed, pick two.

[Anne Morris]

I remember this from when we renovated our kitchen.

[Frances Fry]

Indeed. And what it essentially means is that you can't beat the competition at all three of these. And so if you're gonna pick two, you have to. One of them has to give. It's bad in the service of good. It's sacrifice to make progress. So if you want to speed up the project at the same quality, it's gonna cost more.

[Anne Morris]

And that's intuitive. Cause I gotta hire more people and get them to work after hours and. Exactly right. Is not free.

[Frances Fry]

So in the world of physical products, this, in order to be great, you have to be bad. Is not a very emotional conversation.

[Anne Morris]

Right.

[Frances Fry]

And it's because physics applies. Like if I make something that I can drop on my foot, I can't pretend that there aren't trade offs. I can't pretend that I can be best in class. At weight and best in class at physical features. Right. That they literally physically trade off against each other. In the world of services, the same physics applies, but we seduce ourselves into thinking that we can be great at everything. So this is more difficult to do in service business. So we often say, as shorthand, people think they can defy gravity. It means they're talking about a service and they're acting as if trade offs don't apply to them. And they do.

[Anne Morris]

Right. And it's our shorthand for saying you think delusionally that you can be great at everything.

[Frances Fry]

Yes.

[Anne Morris]

And we know from the science that that is physically impossible.

[Frances Fry]

Yes.

[Anne Morris]

So the moment of truth that I think about a lot is Herb Kelleher, the iconic founder of Southwest Airlines. And he had built this company that was deeply aware of the strategic trade offs embedded in its model. In the beginning, you didn't get an assigned seat and you didn't get a full meal, but in return, you got cheaper prices and you got more frequent flights. And there's a whole bunch of operational reasons why those two things trade off. So at one point, Herb gets this letter from a very frustrated grandmother, and she. It was like a very sympathetic customer. And she's describing how she travels to see her grandkids frequently. And this is a huge part of her life. She has to transfer airlines. And Southwest has a policy where they won't transfer bags. And this was a very big decision.

[Frances Fry]

Because this is a moment of truth. This is a poignant moment of truth.

[Anne Morris]

Totally because they're in this cutthroat game with all these other airlines, and all the other airlines are providing the service. All the other airlines are going to transport for your bag. So he gets this letter and he responds very thoughtfully. It's basically like, we've built an airline that is profitable and doesn't make you sad. Right. We're the only ones.

[Frances Fry]

Right.

[Anne Morris]

But in return, we're going to ask you to make some of these sacrifices. And this is why if we transferred your bag, the whole model would start to fall apart. You know, they have this strategic discipline that is, like, unprecedented in this industry and in many industries. The other thing I love about this story is he basically ccs the entire company.

[Frances Fry]

That's the breathtaking part of it and.

[Anne Morris]

Is like, this is what it looks like to absorb the emotional tax of these kinds of trade offs, which is really the hard part in our experience.

[Frances Fry]

And which means it's the part that the leadership should model.

[Anne Morris]

But what we find must model. I just want to underscore, like Just dial it up. You have to. Because if you start to like, waver even a little bit, it gets amplified.

[Frances Fry]

Through the rest of the organization.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna think, oh, oh, then this, they're not serious about this. So I'm not gonna work as hard as I'm working right now, because this shit is hard.

[Frances Fry]

And what we find that most people, the further they are away from the front line where the trade off is occurring, the more likely they are to forget about why the trade offs need to exist. And so if you find your way to call the CEO like the CEO is a guaranteed yes, if you can finally get through the gatekeepers to get there. And that's really bad posturing. The CEO should say the same no as we want the front line to say, which isn't a mean no, it's a contextual no.

[Anne Morris]

It's a strategic no.

[Frances Fry]

It's a strategic no. And the reason that he cc'd the rest of the company is it was an educational moment. The reason he doesn't do it is we would have to slow down the turnaround time of airplanes. And if we slow down the turnaround times of airplanes, they calculated it even 30 minutes slower would correspond to the entire annual profit of the airline. I think southwest had a 30 minute advantage. They could turn their planes around 30 minutes faster because of many of these choices that gave them essentially the entire profit of the airline. And so anything that got in that way, they can't do, but they didn't do it because they didn't care. And you got the sense that other airlines, when they say no, it's just the person you were unfortunately assigned didn't care. And if I was given a more empathetic person, I would have gotten a yes. This was an empathetic no. And that is the key on Dare to be bad.

[Anne Morris]

Okay, so say I'm convinced I'm ready to get in touch with my inner herb, and I want to do this for my own organization. Where do I start in bringing this kind of thinking into the system?

[Frances Fry]

I think you start with your customers. So you have some, you have an idea of what your service is, what your product is and who you're serving. So when you have those, you start with a customer. And what is it that the customer values most? And so I often think about this. When the customer is thinking of giving you a dollar, who else are they thinking of giving that dollar to? That's your competitive set. And so when the customer is thinking of giving me a Dollar. Why? What's the most important thing to them? Write it down. What's the next most important thing to them? Write it down. And so on. It's really important that we know the ordering of attributes, otherwise we could make the wrong decision. If we're going to be great at some things and bad at others, goodness, we better be great at the things they value most.

[Anne Morris]

When you think about your most important customers, the markets that you really want to win in, what do people care about? And what is the order in which they care about those things?

[Frances Fry]

And the reason that we have people simulate the customer before going and talking to them is twofold. One, it gets you fluent in the language. You're like, it's the pre conversation. So that you're ready to go and be able to participate in the conversation and you have a hypothesis of what you might hear. But here's the second reason. I want people to realize how little they can trust their instincts, because when.

[Anne Morris]

You simulate it, it's super humbling.

[Frances Fry]

Oh, my God, it's so humbling because people have so much confidence. Oh, our customers care about this, this, and this. I want them to do this as a group exercise because they're gonna be in a group with people who are just as confident and think very differently. Well, first of all, you're both not right. So imagine, and this is what's going on. But imagine if you had two people in the organization pulling the company in different directions. That's what's going on. And so by doing this first, by simulating it first, you get to surface. Oh, my gosh, we're not all going in the same direction. We need to go in the same direction. And then let's go get guided by the people who know the answer, which is the customer.

[Anne Morris]

It's a really powerful conversation for surfacing these implicit assumptions. Not only what do customers want, but which customers are most important to us at this time? Like a lot of stuff, really important stuff comes to the surface. Okay, so let's say I get to a confident list. We work through all of these things. We bring in some external data, we're confident in the list. What's my next move?

[Frances Fry]

So if you're going to be successful in that market, look at things at the top of the list. If it's not 1, I sure hope it's 2. And if it's not 1 or 2, I sure hope it's 3. Otherwise, don't be in that business. Yeah, look at things at the top of the list. And what do you have the Operational capability to be great at, not what are you great at today? What do you have the potential to be great at if you gave that more attention?

[Anne Morris]

Yep.

[Frances Fry]

And then if I gave that more attention, I have to acknowledge where am I taking attention away? And please don't take attention away from something that's also at the top of the list.

[Anne Morris]

Right.

[Frances Fry]

Take attention away from something that's at the bottom of the list.

[Anne Morris]

Exactly. The order you're suggesting here is start at the top, where do I want to win? And then reverse engineer what do I have to give up in order to get there.

[Frances Fry]

And all of it is guided by the customer's preferences.

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[Anne Morris]

So where do my competitors come into this story?

[Frances Fry]

So the competitors come in when we say what are you going to be great at? Great is a relative term. What am I going to be better than the competition at? Well the only way I know that is if I Know who the competition is. And most of us, if we go and ask people who the competitors are, sometimes companies think their competitors are different than who the customer thinks their competitors are. And you know who's right? The customer.

[Anne Morris]

Right, Right. So where do companies tend to get stuck in kind of bringing this more strategic use of resources to life inside the system?

[Frances Fry]

Well, one is being disciplined enough to really get to the nitty gritty of that ordering of attributes. Most important to least important. That's the first thing. The second thing is we tend to be a generous grader to ourselves and a really harsh grader to the competition. So we overestimate what we look like in the eyes of the customers, and we underestimate what our competition looks like in the eyes of the customers.

[Anne Morris]

Oh, it's so good. I mean, we do it just to get through the day. And you're going to take that away from me too, in this conversation.

[Frances Fry]

So particularly in highly competitive industries where it's the Coke versus Pepsi. Coke is great, Pepsi is bad, or Pepsi is great, Coke is bad. Oh, my gosh. Don't listen to anybody on the inside about how well you think it's going. You gotta go get market research. Because we think we're great at everything, and we think they're bad at everything.

[Anne Morris]

All right, so let me ask you a question that we get all the time. How does this approach apply to individuals?

[Frances Fry]

Oh, this is.

[Anne Morris]

Or does it?

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. So this, I think, is the most common question that we get when we do this exercise with organizations, which at some point, when people finally, they struggle to get it, they want to be great, they don't want to be bad. And then at some point, there's the breakthrough of, oh, my gosh, in order to be great, we have to be bad. And then the light bulb goes off and they're like, wait a minute, does this apply to me, too?

[Anne Morris]

We had that same arc when we started doing this work and writing about it. We were like, oh, shit, this might explain everything.

[Frances Fry]

And it turned out it explained everything because even though we teach companies around the world, we were getting it wrong at home.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, the home front is a great one. So you often talk about working moms as an example. And I just feel this one. But you're a better messenger for this. Too close to home for me.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. So when we started studying working moms and we could line up the performance of working moms that were killing it to working moms that were just one missed handoff away from a catastrophe, I mean, you know, like, just the like.

[Anne Morris]

You can like see, you can see this whole spectrum and like the drop off line, you can see it in.

[Frances Fry]

The drop off line. You can see it so clearly. I mean, I used to joke that the tell is, are your roots done? That's a working mom who's killing it. Yeah, there's not the exasperated.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

And so what we found is that the working moms that were killing it were actually internalizing this lesson and they were choosing to be best in class at a few asp, a few aspects at work and a few aspects at home. And they were no longer even trying to be great at being a sibling, a daughter, a sister, a friend. The PTA is a laughable acronym to these working moms.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, no one, no one at the PTA meeting has their roots done.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah, nobody does. And everyone on the, on the just one missed handoff away. I loved their values. They thought, you know what? I'm going to use my own physical exhaustion as the only binding constraint and at least I'm going to try to be as good as I used to be before kids at daughter, sister, sibling, PTA and all of that. And so what we're saying is you can either have the nobility of effort and that's that exhausted set of moms, that's exhausted mediocrity, the nobility of effort, or you can have the nobility of excellence, and that is being willing to make trade offs. And you can't have both.

[Anne Morris]

Oh, I felt that we wrote a book about this if people are interested in this idea. We wrote a book called Uncommon Service. Sure, it's in the discount bin now. It's been a good decade, but we really get into the step by step on how you do this. When we were writing that book, we were like, okay, well we gotta take this for a test drive. So we went to our young sons and we came up with an ordering of attributes. And one of the things we learned is that they did not value the time we spent volunteering at their school at all. They did not value complicated meals, like more, more chicken nuggets, please. They did want us to be present when we were home. Like when we were with them. They wanted us to be 100% present. They didn't want us to be checking email in the bathroom. Again, hypothetical, hypothetical.

[Frances Fry]

Disappearing for conspicuously long bathroom breaks.

[Anne Morris]

And the trade offs. When we really, we did, we put it on a map. We call these attribute maps. We put it on a map. And one thing that really jumped out at us is if we took back time from some of these Activities from like meal prep. Like, obviously we're still putting nutritional meals on the table, but we're. You may be spending less time everybody went to on the New York Times recipe list. Repetition. It's fine. It was fine for this age. If we were taking time like that, we could spend time finishing our work at the office and not bring it home. And so we were. When we were home, be totally.

[Frances Fry]

I mean, you remember in preschool, we used to go by we. I mean you more than me. You used to spend so many evenings at the preschool on PTA responsibilities and on governance. You were on the board of the school.

[Anne Morris]

And listen, these schools are run by volunteers. But often that volunteer burden is not equitably distributed. And I made the wrong choice for our family by really leaning into that part of my obligation. And it came at the expense. Cause it was one of a list of 20 other things I was doing of being really present and connected to our kids when we were home.

[Frances Fry]

And the irony is you were doing it for our kids.

[Anne Morris]

Oh, no. That was a story in my head for sure. Yeah. This is for you, honey.

[Frances Fry]

You were staying there at the preschool till midnight.

[Anne Morris]

Well, yeah, things went. Things went a little awry on the governance front, but yes, that is a true statement. There were some midnight board meetings. I love that we started the season this way because I also want us to be able to refer back to this conversation, because what's interesting is I think we wrote the book 10 years ago, you did the research 20 years ago. And yet this is still a tension we see in organizations everywhere. And so this is one of the things we are going to push on this season is how do you acknowledge that gravity also applies to you as a leader, as an organization, as a parent, as a human being?

[Frances Fry]

Yeah. In fact, the first time we wrote about it was in that bargain bin book, Uncommon Service. The second time we wrote about it was in Unleashed. And the third time we wrote about it was in Move Fast and Fix Things. And it's, I think, the only thing we have written about in all three books. Because society has not yet. We have not yet said it in a way that people have been able to fully digest. And it's so important in this semester, in this season, we're going to take a swing at trying to make sure that our fixers understand that in order to be great, you have to be bad and we have to be equally unapologetic about both.

[Anne Morris]

And Frances, I have to tell you, we're going to be writing about it in the fourth book. Too because it is a secret memo that needs to be out there.

[Frances Fry]

You just dropped the name of the new book the Secret Memos.

[Anne Morris]

Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Your participation helps us make great episodes like this. Please keep reaching out to us in all the ways Email, call, text [e-mail] or or 234 FIXABLE. That's 234-349-2253.

[Frances Fry]

We read, listen, experience every one of your messages.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah please keep communicating. Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me Anne Morris and me Francis Fry. This episode was produced by Rahima Nassa from Pushkin Industries. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Daniela Baloraiso and Roxanne Hylash and our.

[Frances Fry]

Show was mixed by Louis at Storyyard.

[Anne Morris]

Louis.

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[Anne Morris]

Carol, you're in remission. I think what gets me most about this whole journey that I've been through is just how many jigsaw pieces come together to help someone like me. I've met people who have just packaged the drugs, just this white box saying World Courier on it. But I want to better say thank you to every single person that works on these things because they've saved my life. Every single one of them.

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[Frances Fry]

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