Work advice from the world’s favorite couples therapist w/ Master Fixer Dr. Orna Guralnik

Summary

Fixable — “Work advice from the world’s favorite couples therapist w/ Master Fixer Dr. Orna Guralnik”

Podcast: Fixable (TED)
Hosts: Frances Frei & Anne Morriss
Guest: Dr. Orna Guralnik
Date: November 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

In the season finale, Anne Morriss and Frances Frei welcome Dr. Orna Guralnik, renowned psychoanalyst and star of Showtime’s “Couples Therapy.” The episode centers on translating key lessons from couples therapy—trust, repair, dealing with difference—into practical takeaways for workplace relationships. The hosts explore how individuals can initiate positive systemic change at work, touch on the emotional realities of difficult relationships, and close with actionable advice for anyone seeking to improve their professional connections.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bridging Couples Therapy and Work

• Universal Dynamics: Dr. Guralnik emphasizes that both in relationships and the workplace, the core challenge is working through differences and “otherness.”

  “A lot of what we do in the world is figure out how to work through difference, really, in almost every aspect of our life, every minute that we're interacting.” (05:54)

• Curiosity over Judgment: She stresses the importance of approaching differences with curiosity rather than seeing them as a binary of right/wrong or better/worse.

  “If we're different, one of us is right, one of us is wrong … it's a flawed premise. So ... move out of that state of mind and into a state of mind of curiosity.” (06:58)

2. Cultivating Curiosity and Non-Judgement

• Emotional Frequency & Self-Regulation: Dr. Guralnik frames patience, taking a breath, and managing intensity as prerequisites for real curiosity and inquiry.

  “I model it as an emotional frequency … patience, breath, regulating level of intensity … so you can be open to taking in something new.” (07:44)

• Practical Techniques: She recommends literally and figuratively “taking a deep breath,” reducing urgency, and allowing more space for the other party’s perspective.

  “Coach yourself into reducing a sense of urgency … imagine yourself taking up a little less space … and making a little more space for who you’re talking to.” (08:55)

3. Negotiating Space in Relationships

• Dynamic Negotiation: Frances brings in the idea of helping people claim or yield space as needed for healthy interaction.
• System Mindset: Dr. Guralnik explains that relationship dynamics are system-based: “If you create a good system ... a lot can happen for individuals. ... One person can do a lot to create an environment where the rest can flourish.” (11:18 & 12:35)

4. Agency in Improving Work Relationships

• Boss Relationships: Subordinates often carry more responsibility in repairing or improving relationships with their boss, but they do have agency.

  “In a relationship with the boss, it's often the subordinate who has more responsibility to attend to the relationship.” (13:15)

• Example—Listening: The primary actionable step is to become a better listener, which builds a mutually respectful environment.

  “The more you create an environment of proper deep listening, where true things can be said, it goes both ways.” (14:34)

• Teams as Packs: Effective teams understand and make use of individual roles, minimizing destructive competition and maximizing collective effectiveness.

  “Ideally, you want a team to experience themselves as part of a big unit … the importance of the individual is not what’s at stake, but the unit, the system as a whole.” (15:30)

5. Rupture and Repair: Rebuilding Trust

• Constant Repair: All relationships cycle through “rupture and repair”—the real muscle is in rebuilding trust, not just maintaining it.

  “There’s a saying in ... attachment research that all relationships are a constant rupture and repair. Constant.” (17:25)

• Knowing When to Move On: If attempts at change result in no movement or remain fossilized, it might be time to leave a relationship or job.

  “If something’s bothering you and you're always left with this bad feeling ... and it's not moving, go. Move on.” (18:35)

6. Deep Listening: Mechanics and Practice

• Shifting Modes: Deep listening involves suppressing your urge to respond or defend; truly listen for understanding, not just to reinforce your position.

  “Deep listening requires, first of all, quieting down your wish to speak … tune in a way that you’re trying to really get to the essence of what they’re saying.” (20:31)

• Reflection: Frances suggests—and Dr. Guralnik agrees—that repeating back the essence of what someone has said is a practical way to check your listening.

  “When they can repeat back the other person’s point to the other person’s satisfaction, you’ve probably gone through deep listening.” (21:56)

7. Working with a Spouse or Partner

• Benefits and Challenges: Working together as a couple is “fantastic” when it works, as it reveals many dimensions of a partner, but it demands shifting between different ‘discourse’ modes and being mindful of competition and comparison.

  “There’s a certain kind of discourse that we use at work and ... it’s important to know how to shift between those.” (24:23) “We do not want to be optimizing romance.” (24:31)

8. Systemic Change: One Person’s Impact

• Agency and Hope: Even if you’re the only one trying, you can “do a disproportionate amount of the work so that you take care of the system.” (39:39)
• Optimism: Anne and Frances both reflect on how hopeful it is to realize progress doesn’t require universal buy-in.

9. Transparency and Growth in Dr. Guralnik’s Practice

• Consulting Peers: The segments on “Couples Therapy” showing her consulting with colleagues were both authentic and intentional, designed to model learning and humility.

  “Relationships are based on not knowing and learning from other people and being in conversation.” (29:06)

10. The Power of Dogs (and Environment)

• Nico the Dog: Nico is an intentional part of Dr. Guralnik’s office, offering comfort and warmth as a “transitional object.”

  “She comes with me to work every day, does the work with me … she eases everyone in … and walks them out.” (32:27–33:21)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Patience and Space:
  Dr. Orna Guralnik — “Imagine yourself taking up a little less space, and making a little more space for who you’re talking to.” (08:55)

• On Systemic Power:
  Dr. Orna Guralnik — “A relationship is more than its parts … one person can do a lot to create an environment where the rest can flourish.” (12:35)

• On Rupture & Repair:
  Dr. Orna Guralnik — “All relationships are a constant rupture and repair. Constant.” (17:25)

• On Deep Listening:
  Dr. Orna Guralnik — “Deep listening requires, first of all, quieting down your wish to speak … tune in a way that you’re trying to really get to the essence of what they’re saying.” (20:31)

• On Leaving a Job or Relationship:
  Dr. Orna Guralnik — “If you’re trying to make progress and it’s not working … then maybe you should go.” (18:35)

• On Roles and Teams:
  Dr. Orna Guralnik — "A team ideally wants to experience itself as a unit, as a functional working group, where the importance of the individual is not what's at stake, but the unit, the system as a whole.” (15:30)

• On Bringing Your Dog to Work:
  Dr. Orna Guralnik — “She just brings … goodness and love and simplicity of connection … I don’t touch my patients, I don’t comfort them physically, but the dog does.” (33:23)

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Actionable Advice & Takeaways

1. Two Immediate Tips for Improving Work Relationships (34:59)

• Express Real Gratitude: “Express gratitude to whoever you’re working with about something real. It’s about building a field … where people feel recognized.” (35:04)
• Practice Deep Listening: “Decide: OK, I’m going to listen to whoever it is. ... It’s about introducing ... a spirit of generosity, inclusiveness, recognition.” (35:04)

2. Making Change When You’re Alone

• You don’t need everyone’s buy-in to make progress: “One person can make a big difference.” (39:39)

3. Knowing When to Leave

• If efforts to repair or improve are stuck and you’re always left with a bad feeling—consider moving on. (18:35)

4. Distinguishing Modes of Communication

• Shift intentionally between different types of conversations (work, domestic, romantic) and resist ‘optimizing’ personal life the way you would professional life. (24:23–24:31)

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Host Reflections & Closing Thoughts

• Hope & Agency:
  Frances: “You can do the disproportionate amount of the work so that you take care of the system.” (39:39)
• Presence of Curiosity:
  Anne celebrates Dr. Guralnik’s embodiment of curiosity and non-judgment as a “thrilling” and “powerful” counter to current media culture. (41:11)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introducing the Guest — 03:06
• Curiosity vs. Judgment — 06:58
• Emotional Regulation & Space — 07:44–09:37
• Agency in Boss Relationships — 13:15
• Repair vs. Rupture — 17:25
• Knowing When to Move On — 18:35
• Deep Listening Skills — 20:31–22:26
• Benefits & Challenges of Working With a Spouse — 22:56–25:51
• Transparency & Learning in Therapy — 29:06–31:42
• Dogs in the Therapy Room — 32:27–33:42
• Two Immediate Tips for Listeners — 34:59

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Final Thoughts

This episode distills rich, hard-won wisdom from couples therapy into tools for building, mending, and sustaining strong relationships at work. Dr. Guralnik’s blend of psychological rigor, authentic compassion, and everyday pragmatism offers listeners “ultimately hopeful” guidance for becoming stewards of healthier teams, partnerships, and systems—starting, as she notes, with a simple act of gratitude or an honest attempt at deep listening.

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For more episodes or to submit your workplace challenge, call 234-FIXABLE.

Transcript

[Northwestern Mutual Announcer]

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[Anne Morris]

This episode of Fixable is brought to you by Scrum alliance and their course Agile for hr. One of the patterns I see over and over in organizations is that HR teams are expected to drive change, but often they're the last ones given the tools to do it. Agile for HR helps Flip that script. It's a practical four hour course that shows you how to bring agility into your everyday HR work so you can respond, not react, to the constant shifts in your business and workforce. You'll explore real world HR case studies, discover new ways to shape resilient teams, and learn how to align HR strategy with evolving company goals. Agile HR helps HR teams work better together and keep pace with the demands of modern work so the whole organization can adapt and thrive. Learn more and enroll [e-mail] Frances, you and I have never been in couples therapy.

[Frances Fry]

Oh yeah. So if you recall, you promised me early on that you would never ask.

[Anne Morris]

I did. I would have promised you anything. At that point. I was basically a child bride who had no idea what she was getting into.

[Frances Fry]

You were 30 years old. You were emotionally as you still are, like 75. And now I am super suspicious about what I'm. About what I'm walking into.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to ask you to trust me, baby. It's going to be amazing.

[Frances Fry]

Oh, boy.

[Anne Morris]

Welcome to Fixable, a podcast from ted. I'm your host, Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[Frances Fry]

And I'm your co host, Frances Fry. I'm a Harvard Business School professor and I'm Anne's wife.

[Anne Morris]

Today's episode will be the last new episode of the season, so we want to go out with a bang. We have a very special master fixer joining us today.

[Frances Fry]

I have never been more nervous and.

[Anne Morris]

I have never been more delighted to share a guest with our audience. The fabulous Dr. Orna Goralnik is with us today to help us take lessons from the world of couples therapy and apply them to the experience of work And Francis, if along the way, we get to our work and our relationship, it happens, baby. It's gonna come up organically.

[Frances Fry]

This is not helping.

[Anne Morris]

Dr. Guralnik, for those of you who don't know, is a renowned psychoanalyst and clinical psychologist on the faculty of NYU's postdoctoral program in Psychoanalysis. She is also the star of the fantastic show Couples Therapy on Showtime and Paramount. I want to say up front that I love this show. I've watched every episode, and I have been really struck by the overlap between her work and our work. We're not therapists, of course, but many of the same themes and challenges that come up in the conversations she has with her patients are the same themes that come up in the conversations we have with people every day. How to build and rebuild trust. How to repair relationships. How to not just tolerate differences, but really lean in and value them.

[Frances Fry]

Well, this is starting to sound better to me because this is what we think about and write about all the time.

[Anne Morris]

And these are some of the topics that we want to explore with Dr. Guralnik today. What are the lessons from her work that we can bring with us into the office?

[Frances Fry]

If we keep it focused on the office, I am totally excited if, along.

[Anne Morris]

The way, we get to our relationship. It happens, baby. Doctor Orna Goralnik, welcome to Fixable.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to join you.

[Anne Morris]

We are super fans and have so many questions for you today. We are also really moved by the grace and the wisdom and the values that you share with us and millions of other people through your show, Couples Therapy.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Thank you.

[Anne Morris]

We should disclose upfront that we are married to each other, which you have probably already figured out by now. So we may. We may get to some piece of that story before the conversation.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I'm okay if we don't.

[Frances Fry]

I'm okay if we don't.

[Anne Morris]

We might warm up.

[Frances Fry]

We already got there.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I'm so doomed.

[Frances Fry]

I knew I was doomed.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I know.

[Anne Morris]

I know. You're outnumbered, Francis. Two people who like to live the examined life. So let's start here, far away from me and Frances. This is a show about work, and on the surface, it sounds like a topic that's very far away from the intimacy of your expertise and domain. But so many of the questions and the topics and the skills that you explore with the couples on your show and I imagine, in your work deal so relevant to our experience of work. So maybe just as a starting place, what are the most important lessons from your work that people can bring into their experience of the Office, obviously, what.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

We'Re dealing with in the office as well as at home and in most of the situations that we encounter so far, we're dealing with other human beings, and we need to interact with other human beings with their otherness and their difference from us. So a lot of what we do in the world is figure out how to work through difference, really, in almost every aspect of our life, every minute that we're interacting. And even when we're not interacting with other people, we interact with ourselves because we have different parts that are often in conflict. So dealing with differences, kind of the basic of, like, human experience.

[Anne Morris]

If I can ask you right away, just for some coaching for us and for our listeners, how do we approach that otherness and that idea of difference with more curiosity and less judgment, both for other people and kind of for ourselves? Because we hear a lot of people beating themselves up for not being better at this one.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

One of the things that happens when we're faced with difference is we somehow our mind tends to go towards. If we're different, one of us is right, one of us is wrong, one of us is better, which is most of the time flawed. It's like a flawed premise. So to kind of convince ourselves to move out of that state of mind and into a different state of mind, which is a state of mind of curiosity, where. Oh, something different from me. How interesting. What is it? What can I learn from it? As opposed to, like, who tops who in your work?

[Anne Morris]

Is part of what you're doing modeling what that, like, emotional frequency is?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, I model it as an emotional frequency. And if you want to talk about the emotional frequency, which. I like that word. It has to do with patience, it has to do with breath, it has to do with time, it has to do with regulating level of intensity, regulating kind of anger or despair. It's a lot of emotional frequency that you have to manage just to be able to reach the cognitive state of curiosity where you're open to taking in something new from the outside, as opposed to just affirming what you know already.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. And Chris Argyros work, which we go to a lot, he describes that as advocacy versus inquiry. And do you have any coaching for us on practically how to access that curious inquiry state? Like, in the moment I'm feeling the thing, my coworker just pissed me off, and I know I have to deal with it. I don't have the luxury of waiting till tomorrow. How do I even think about getting into the beautiful state that you just described?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah. So all of what it means to take a deep breath. And I don't mean it only in, but sometimes literally take a deep breath. But take a deep breath in terms of like your, your entire approach to the situation, like, coach yourself into reducing a sense of urgency, calming yourself down in a way, kind of. I like to think of it as like, imagine yourself taking up a little less space, whatever that space is, and making a little more space for who you're talking to so you can understand what's going on there on the other side. What is it that they're negotiating for needing? What is it they're presenting you with? Just make room for more.

[Anne Morris]

I love that. Francis, you had a non verbal reaction. I'm wondering if you have a thought there.

[Frances Fry]

That one works well. I spend a lot of time coaching people to take up more space and that's so that they can get in touch with their own power and their own voice. And when you interact, as I've just learned, it's a really nice metaphor to now, once you've taken up space now yield and give some and make room for someone else. So that really sits very intuitively with me, now that you've said it.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah. And I can imagine that it's of course not always true. I think with certain people or units that are more inclined to not take space, maybe the coaching would be different. Right. For a real interaction to happen, let's say it depends on how many components are at the table. But if there are two components at the table, both need to be present. And the negotiation of space as a metaphor is important there. Who's taking too much space? Who's taking too little? Are you flexible? Are you moving back and forth in terms of how much you're occupying versus how much you're letting your other side speak?

[Anne Morris]

And ideally, both people are kind of monitoring that shared space. If we're, if we're getting this right.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah. Although there's a lot that one side can do. Moving back to the realm of like couples work, I mean, sometimes people, very often people are kind of dragging their partner into therapy.

[Anne Morris]

How should we think about that scenario differently? When one person is more eager than the other one to have this type.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Of conversation, one person can do a lot. I mean, that's what I was going to say earlier about the relationship between, let's say what happens in a therapy office in couples work and other situations like work environments, or we can talk about other situations. Is that. And that's one thing I've learned, is that a relationship is more than its parts Right. When you're in a relationship, you're creating a system and the system has its own properties and it needs attending. There are ways that the system works that are different from each individual. And if you create kind of a good system, if you take good care of the field that is created between whoever's sitting at the table, a lot can happen for individuals. And in that sense, I mean, that sounded a bit abstract, but in that sense, one person can do a lot. Not everyone has to take care of the system equally. One person can do a lot to create an environment where the rest can flourish.

[Anne Morris]

So if we apply that to a team dynamic, which is a lot of how people experience work as part of their team and then in relationship with their boss, that's what a lot of the research shows. So if we take that thought and bring it into the workplace, it's hopeful because you don't need everyone pulling necessarily in the same direction to be able to make a lot of progress there. Let's start with a relationship with my boss that is not going well. But my boss doesn't seem to care because my boss is thinking about other things. But I want to make our relationship better because it's having a profound impact on my experience of work. What can I do in that situation?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Right. So in a relationship with the boss, it's often the subordinate, the employee has more responsibility to attend to the relationship to the system than the boss. We can think about all the reasons why that is, but that's often what it is. And you have, as a subordinate, you have many ways to do that. It's not. You don't need a two way street. There, there are plenty of things that you can do to kind of create a system of communication or a system of relationship, of relating to each other that is good, that is better than what it was. It depends on what the ills are. But just first of all, to keep in mind that it is your responsibility and that you have the power in that. Rather than sitting there quietly and like complaining that your boss isn't taking care of you.

[Anne Morris]

And can you have an example of what that might look like?

[Frances Fry]

Exactly my question.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, totally. One is to become a better listener. That's always the number one thing to go to.

[Anne Morris]

Like I am the subordinate. I want my boss to pay attention to me, pay more attention to me and what I need from work.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

My instinct is not to listen more effectively. I want to be an advocate for myself in that situation.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Right. But that's the beauty of thinking systemically. They're not mutually exclusive. Like, the more you create an environment of proper deep listening where things. Where true things can be said. It goes both ways. It's the field that you're creating. So if you talk to your boss and you say, I need you to talk to me very directly about what you need from me.

[Frances Fry]

Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Don't hold back. Talk to me as if I'm an adult. I want to hear what you have to say. You're immediately creating a field and you're inviting your boss to participate in a way that is serious, mutually respectful. And if the boss feels heard, it's. You can pretty much trust that they will then want to listen differently, that they will offer the same thing. Great.

[Anne Morris]

Thank you. How does that counsel change? If I'm thinking about my interacting my relationship with my team members on more of an equal plane.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah. Team relationships are different because, of course, there's certain similarities. But you can think of a team as kind of a pack, like a pack that has to work together like sled dogs. And ideally, you want a team to be experience themselves as part of a big unit that is working together like a good working group. And a good working group knows that they have different roles. And the roles are clear. They know what each are good at. So one might be the one that is responsible indeed for the quality of the relationships. One might be the one that comes up with all the crazy ideas. One might be the one that, you know, fights with the enemy. One might take on more of a leadership type position. Or one might attend to process or to small details. It's good to know what each is good at. The dynamics that get in the way of teams often, aside from lack of clarity, are competition. Right. Sibling rivalry. And competition is a healthy thing to have to a certain degree, but beyond a certain level, it becomes really destructive. So the challenges of a team are different. But it's important to think that the team ideally wants to experience itself as a unit, as a functional working group, where the importance of the individual is not what's at stake, but the unit, the system as a whole.

[Anne Morris]

A lot of the couples on your show are working on the practice of repair. So there's some kind of harm that's been inflicted on the relationship. We increasingly find ourselves talking with leaders about how important this repair skill is. So the real muscle isn't building trust, it's rebuilding trust.

[Frances Fry]

True.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

You know, there's a saying in the attachment research that all relationships are a constant rupture and repair constant.

[Anne Morris]

Oh, that's so powerful.

[Frances Fry]

It's so powerful. And it's exactly what we're experiencing because people often treat trust like a Faberge egg. And once it's broken, it can never be restored. And we're like, no, you can actually restore it to even stronger than it was before. And we guarantee you you're going to break it. But I like constant state of rupture and repair. Yes.

[Anne Morris]

And it's really liberating because, I mean, back to people beating themselves up, people often feel a lot of stress about the fact that these relationships are in flux in this way.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Right. But it's the nature of the beast.

[Anne Morris]

It's the nature of the beast some of your couples are wrestling with. Whether the rupture is so profound that they need to break up. How do I know if it's time for me to break up with a relationship at work, to leave a team or leave a company? Any coaching there on how I should think about that?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Wow, that's a hard one. Because there's so many factors that can be part of it. But maybe we can start with what I see in the realm of like a couple's world and see what applies. But when couples are too, in a way, addicted to cycles of, we could call it like abuse and vengeance. There can be something that is too satisfying about that, that it's hard for couples to leave that mode of being and move into a more constructive mode. It can be impossible for them for whatever history has accumulated or what they're bringing into the relationship. You know, if something feels like you're trying to work on it one way or another and you're always left with this, like, bad feeling, then it might be time to go. It just might not be the right fit and there's just too much damage or it's just not the right fit for me. Like, the key question is how much change are you able to affect with something that is bothering you? If you. If something's bothering you and there's change, you can change something over here and then change something over there. But it's a moving system. It's dynamic. It's not, you know, stuck in this kind of fossilized place. Why not? Why not keep working at it? It's not like you're going to go somewhere else and it's going to be perfect. You're always going to find some challenge. So try to work on it. If it feels like it's not moving, go, move on.

[Anne Morris]

I love that.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

When you said deep listening, which resonates a lot. But if I was going to teach someone how to become a deeper listener. Are there some pragmatic steps that we can take?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah. You know, there's an area in the brain that is responsible for expressive language. And there's another area in the brain, like the broca area is responsible for listening. It's really shifting. If you can have, like in your mind that you're shifting brain areas. But deep listening requires, first of all, quieting down your wish to speak. So there's a difference between listening to fortify your own position versus listening to understand. And you have to learn how to distinguish between those modes within yourself. It's not always clear. Sometimes you think you're listening to listen, but you're really just kind of building your own point or building your own argument. And you have to really know when to quiet things down. And sometimes you need to do that. But it's important to know how to quiet yourself down. And first of all, tune in to the other person. And then tune in a way that you're trying to really get to the essence of what they're saying versus get caught on the details. I mean, people get caught on details constantly. No, it didn't happen yesterday, it happened three days ago. It's not the point. It doesn't matter when it happens.

[Frances Fry]

That's really. That's a super practical one. Let me test some advice I've given to see if it makes sense, which is that I tell people when they can repeat back the other person's point to the other person's satisfaction. You've probably gone through the act of deep listening.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah. Yes. And the idea is not to necessarily repeat it word by word, but to get essence, what's important to the other person.

[Frances Fry]

I love the word essence there.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. So what advice do you have for us? We do all of our work together. We now have a hard time not doing it because we find that we are both so much better in each other's presence than we are out there individually in the world. What should we think about, look out for? How are we good stewards of this partnership both at home and out in the world?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

First of all, I think it's wonderful couples that manage to work well together and create something together. I mean, that's fantastic. It's both that thrill of doing it together, but also you get to know your partner in different ways, in ways that people that don't work together don't. You can adore, admire, respect, care for, console. I mean, there's so many. The relationship can get so rich because so much of our lives nowadays is about work. So when it works, I think it's wonderful. The things that can get in the way, you know, I don't need to tell you, of course, is first of all, of course, competition and issues of power and issues of self esteem. Everything that has to do with comparison. When people get like stuck on this problem of comparison, it can be destructive, depending on the quality of the comparison, where people go with it. There's a certain kind of discourse that we use at work and there's a different discourse that has to do with domestic life, and there's a different discourse that has to do with romantic life. And it's important to know how to shift between those. If at work you're like, concerned with like things like the bottom line and optimization, I mean, that's not the language you want to bring to your domestic life or it's not the language you.

[Frances Fry]

Want or to romance.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

I was just echoing you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We do not want to be optimizing romance.

[Anne Morris]

You do not want to be optimizing the romance.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, yeah. So to know that you're shifting discourse and to be kind of aware of that seems to me super important.

[Anne Morris]

Nice. I love that. To me, one of the most thrilling parts of it is that I get to see so many more dimensions of Francis out in the world than, you know, just within the limitations of domestic life. It's just, it's a more. It's a more narrow version of all of us. And then I get to go out in the world and see like all of the beautiful colors show up in all these different ways. And I think that is like half the fun of this for me.

[Frances Fry]

Selfishly, Anne often makes a phrase that I think I now understand when she says she coaches people to have adult to adult relationships. And it sounds like you're giving a lot of dimensionality to adult to adult relationships.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Exactly.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. Back to frequency. There are all these reasons where we don't choose that adult to adult frequency, usually from a place of love, is maybe too strong in some of these scenarios, but taking care of other people. So I'm not going to tell you the hard truth that you're not performing or. Because I want to protect your feelings and I want to avoid the discomfort of this. So sometimes the way through it is with this adult to adult framing, which invites both of us to show up.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah, yeah. And trust that truth will set you free.

[Anne Morris]

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[Dayforce Announcer]

This episode is sponsored by Dayforce. Something about the way we're working just isn't working when you're caught up in complex pay requirements or distracted by scheduling staff in multiple time zones, or thinking about the complexity of working in Monterrey while based in Montreal, you're not doing the work you're meant to do. But with Dayforce, you get hr, pay, time, talent and analytics all in a single AI powered people platform so you can do the work you're meant to do. Visit dayforce.com.hework to learn more.

[Anne Morris]

So you're years into making the show right now. It's been a massive success. Your own learning has become part of the script and the scenes of you not having all the answers and engaging with your colleagues are also super powerful. Even just as a portrait of a professional at work, you are both strong and skilled and human and vulnerable all at the same time, which I think is really powerful to see. Can you talk about those scenes? Were those intentional? Did you find your way there and how do you feel about them?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

First of all, thanks for how you're portraying it in My profession as an analyst, we do often make sure, on and off, to have consults with colleagues and with supervisors. We often create these peer supervision groups to make sure that you're not stuck in your own little rabbit hole of how you understand what's going on. You have to keep a great deal of confidentiality. You can't talk about your patients with the rest of the world. But it's important to have certain people to talk with so that you're not just stuck, so that you can get different perspectives on what's going on, especially when things get intense. So it's. When we started doing the show, I was telling the directors, well, I'll probably hire a consultant to make sure I'm thinking about everything. And they were like, well, maybe we should film that too. And I'm like, that's a great idea. So that's how it happened. So we started with Virginia, and then I was like, well, why don't we bring in the rest of my peers? Because those are the people I would be consulting with. And that's what we did. And it's both really great for me, just for the same reason. It would be great for me in my private practice. But I also think it's really important for people to see that because it is a chance to constantly learn the way I'm constantly learning. I can share it with the audience, like, how do you think about these situations? How do you theory and so. And indeed, kind of debunking the idea that you have to be a know it all, that relationships are based on not knowing and learning from other people and being in conversation.

[Anne Morris]

I love that it really comes through in retrospect. What are other creative decisions that you have made for the show that you think were most important?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Lots. There's always discussions about that. One was what aspects of my own life to allow in and what to keep out. Because typically, as an analyst, my patients don't know much about me. I mean, they can read stuff that I've written if they want to. Most choose not to, but otherwise they just come into my office and they're free to know very little. Now, the documentarians, in the beginning, they were, you know, like any documentarian. For them, it's like, the more the better. Like, we want to know about you. We want everything. Like every conversation you have, we want to film. And I'm like, this is not good. This is not therapy, is not like that.

[Anne Morris]

It's not.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

You want to include less of me to make room for the couples and to make room for the audience also to have their own transference, not to put too much of myself in there. And that was kind of navigating. That was something that we were always learning and trying out. And I had a pretty rigid stance early on. But then Covid hit, so it was like, okay, forget it. Never mind. We're filming at home. Okay. And then, you know, my kid walks in, and it's just like, Frances is.

[Anne Morris]

A huge dog lover.

[Frances Fry]

I was just gonna go to the dog.

[Anne Morris]

Why don't you go to the dog?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

While I was my favorite topic.

[Frances Fry]

It's so palpable.

[Anne Morris]

The role.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

The role.

[Frances Fry]

I would love to know the thinking. Did it begin as an accident? And it was then a happy accident? Was it intentional? I'd love to know the story beyond this, at least. It's part of central casting for me in my consumption of the show. As a lifelong dog, having dogs in.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

The family, definitely not an accident. Nico comes with me to work way before the show. She comes with me to work every day, and she does the work with me. She's an amazing presence in the office. She's also just. She's funny. She just knows her job. She, like, greets people at the door. She walks them in. She sniffs and licks them and makes them happy, and they pet her, and she kind of eases everyone in, and when people are settled, she settles down, and when the session ends, she gets up and walks them out.

[Anne Morris]

That's so good.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

And she just brings, you know, what dogs bring. They bring this kind of goodness and love and simplicity of connection and very tactile. You know, I'm an analyst. I don't touch my patients. I don't comfort them physically, but the dog does. She's sort of like a transitional object.

[Frances Fry]

How did she learn how to do this? Did it. Was she just naturally good at it? Did she have training for it?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

She didn't have training. She's just, you know, she's one of those dogs that just gets it, you know, when I'm like. You know, when heavy stuff is going on in the session, if it's, like, really upsetting or she comforts me, you know, I grab her and I pet her, and it's. I'm comforted.

[Anne Morris]

I see my wife's mind reeling about the possibilities.

[Frances Fry]

So neither of our dogs are. Get it in the way that you just described.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, I don't think any of our dogs are naturals.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

No.

[Anne Morris]

Let's just say that.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah. What kind of dogs do you have?

[Frances Fry]

Labrador. And then a mix between an Irish Setter and a golden retriever, which should be perfect.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

They should get it.

[Anne Morris]

Her threat assessment machinery may be jacked up a little too high for the work. This conversation has selfishly been so fun for us. If our listeners could do one thing tomorrow to make their relationships at work better, what would you advise them to do?

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Can it be two?

[Anne Morris]

Yes. Yes. We're going to give you two so much.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

One is to, I mean, this is very corny, but super powerful is to express gratitude to whoever you're working with about something real, which again, this is about building a field. Like building the field that. Creating a field where people can work well. So when people feel recognized for what they're contributing, it's always good. I mean, this is just, anytime you're in doubt, do that. It'll make everything better immediately. And the second thing is, listen, decide. Okay, I'm going to listen to whoever it is. Just it's all about introducing kind of a certain kind of spirit of generosity, inclusiveness, recognition, creating a field in which you want to live.

[Anne Morris]

I love that phrase, a field in which you want to live. And to your point, as an individual in that field, I can have a huge impact even if I don't have everyone's consent around me or everyone on the same page necessarily.

[Frances Fry]

One of the things that I'm taking from this is that when we coach people, they usually begin by saying, I can be a good leader as long as employees are pristine. They don't say it that way, but that's what they reveal. Then we tell them our ambition for them is to be great when they're pristine and great when they're not pristine. And you really help to give all kinds of dimensionality to that. And I do. As Ann said earlier, I do find it an ultimately hopeful conversation. There's a lot of rigor and a lot of optimism with this, and so I'm really grateful for it.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Good.

[Anne Morris]

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and time with us today.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Thank you for inviting me.

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[Anne Morris]

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[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Can I make my site firmer?

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[Frances Fry]

I don't know that I've ever been in an audience with a better human and it and by that, you know, the way we think about leadership is about making others better. Who is she not gonna make better?

[Anne Morris]

Like, oh, I mean it was pretty motivating. So motivating your best self. And she has that impact on the scale of the planet right now. I mean, what an invitation. You. You talked about her message being hopeful. What parts of her message made you most hopeful?

[Frances Fry]

Let's say you're in a teen that's not going well or you're in a relationship that's not going well. You don't have to wait for the person.

[Anne Morris]

I love that too.

[Frances Fry]

You can do the disproportionate amount of the work so that you take care of the system. So we each have to take care of ourselves. But somebody it could be just one person who tends to the system that's like crazy hopeful because usually the person with the frustration also has the discretionary energy to bring to it. So I love that one person can make a big difference. The other part is that everything like every time we asked her to double click on something, like what Deep listening or each step was accessible. Like each one was something we could do if we set our minds to it. And then I really loved the rigor. Oh, this part of your brain does. This part of your brain does that. So it might help to think that you're shifting from one part of your brain to the other. Golly. That speaks my language. Yeah.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

One of the challenges of this conversation is every. Every conversation I wanted to have with her could be an hour conversation. Right. And to try to have it in this kind of snackable way, to her credit, like, this format, it almost doesn't work because there's so much, like, rich territory to get into. And so to skim across the surface as a challenge, I found myself just. Part of the joy of the show is being in her presence.

[Frances Fry]

I loved being in her presence, and.

[Anne Morris]

It was so fun in this conversation to just be in her presence as she processed the world and revealed these core values that are so powerful that I think she put a little bit of voice to, but they are also so counter to, I think, much of what we experience in the world and in the media environment right now. So this sense of the opposite of polarization, curiosity about the other, welcoming of the other, doing the practical work of being interested in this other perspective, like, it just to see it and to feel it is just super powerful. Yeah.

[Frances Fry]

I look forward to our listeners getting a glimpse of it as well through this. You know, one of the more remarkable parts of the conversation was at the end when you asked her, how do you know if a couple needs couples therapy? And she removed ambiguity. Like, if you feel like you're able, you have problems. Let me just begin.

[Dr. Orna Guralnik]

You have issues. If you feel like you can move.

[Frances Fry]

The needle, you might not need to bring in an additional voice. But if you feel stuck. I love the word fossilized. Then an additional voice might be helpful, although. So on the one hand, wow. A lot of people will be thinking about couples therapy. On the other hand, I can feel a lot of disappointment when walking in and it's not her and Nico.

[Anne Morris]

I know it does. I mean, we don't know the feel, but it does set quite a high bar for what happens next. I found that a really useful for. Do I stay in the job? Do I stay on the team? Are you trying to make progress and getting nowhere? Yeah. That's the thing you care about as opposed to a lot of the kind of loaded language and words and toxicity that we think about. Oh, here are the red flags for why. For when you need to move on. Like, are you trying to make things better? And it's not working. Okay, then maybe you should go. But if you're making progress, there is. There is hope here, and it may be worth your time to stay and see how far you can go.

[Frances Fry]

And if you're doing nothing and just waiting, you haven't tried yet. Yeah, I think that's another signal to go. I'm just not enjoying myself. It's just not happening. That's not the signal.

[Anne Morris]

You're sitting on the sidelines and judging the behavior of your colleagues. That is not reliable data.

[Frances Fry]

Also.

[Anne Morris]

I love that. All right, well, Francis, this is our last episode of Fixable for the season.

[Frances Fry]

Wow.

[Anne Morris]

I want to share with our listeners that we're really excited. We're going to take a few weeks off now and really think about the show. We're going to come back next season with even more fixable, even more episodes, and we're thinking really hard about the formats and the structure of the show that are gonna be most interesting and most fun and the topics that are really gonna resonate with people, on people's minds. So we are back in action on January 26th, and then we're gonna come back stronger and better and stronger than ever.

[Frances Fry]

And along the way, we always invite people to call in with their problems or send us emails, and we appreciate that very much. And we can even open the aperture some. You can tell us which aspects of the show are your favorite, so we make sure not to. Not to walk on by those, because I do think it's, you know, it's time to refresh and think about bringing in new things, which means you have to let go of other things. And so learning from people, what resonates most, you can include that in what you share with us.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. This is a particularly fertile environment for feedback.

[Frances Fry]

Yes.

[Anne Morris]

As we think about how to make the show better. So any thoughts and ideas you have, please send them. How do they communicate with us? Frances Fry?

[Frances Fry]

You can email, call, or text us at my fixableed.com or 234- FIXABLE. That's 234-349-2253.

[Anne Morris]

Fixable is a podcast from ted. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris, and me, Frances Fry. This episode was produced by Rahima Nasser from Pushkin Industries. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Daniela Baloro and Roxanne Hylash.

[Frances Fry]

And our show was mixed by Louis at Storyyard.

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This episode is sponsored by Dayforce. Something about the way we're working just isn't working when you're caught up in complex pay requirements or distracted by scheduling staff in multiple time zones or thinking about the complexity of working in Monterey while based in Montreal, you're not doing the work you're meant to do. But with Dayforce you get hr, pay, time, talent and analytics all in a single AI powered people platform so you can do the work you're meant to do. Visit dayforce.com.hework to learn more.

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This holiday, Verizon is helping you bundle up incredible gifts and savings. You'll get the latest phone with a new line on my plan and a brand new smartwatch and tablet. No trade in needed even on our lowest price plan. That's two gifts for your family and one for you. Or two for you and one for someone else or three gifts for you and only you. Either way, you save big on three amazing gifts at Verizon, all on the best 5G network. Visit Verizon today. Rankings based on RootMetric Truth Score Report dated one each 2025. Your results may vary. Service plan required for Watch this tablet. Additional terms apply.

[Anne Morris]

How does F1 turn data into insights at 200 mph?

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[Anne Morris]

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