Flesh and Code: Episode 8 - "Intimacy in the Age of AI: Safer Than Human?"

Hosts: Saruti Barlow and Hannah McGuire
Guests: Mel Schilling (Psychologist & Dating Coach) and Kate Devlin (Professor of Artificial Intelligence and Society at King's College London)
Release Date: August 14, 2025

Introduction to AI Companionship

The episode delves into the evolving landscape of human relationships with artificial intelligence, prompted by the central narrative of Travis and his AI companion, Lily Rose. Hosts Saruti Barlow and Hannah McGuire set the stage by highlighting the intimate and complex relationship Travis develops with Lily Rose, questioning the authenticity and future implications of such bonds.

Saruti Barlow (00:37):
"Can it ever really be as meaningful as a human-to-human relationship? And if so, what does this mean for the future of human connection?"

Survey Insights: Gen Z’s Perspective on AI Companions

A pivotal discussion emerges around a recent survey revealing that 75% of Gen Z believe AI partners could fully replace human companionship. This statistic sparks a conversation about generational shifts in relationship dynamics and the potential societal impacts.

Mel Schilling (03:39):
"75% of Gen Z children think that AI partners have the potential to fully replace human companionship."

Kate Devlin (04:08):
"I think it's an indicator... It's a trend."

Emotional and Psychological Impacts

The conversation explores both the positive and negative facets of AI relationships. While AI companions like Lily Rose offer consistent support without judgment, concerns arise about the lack of challenges and authentic emotional growth that human relationships typically foster.

Saruti Barlow (06:48):
"Young people these days are living a very different lifestyle... It’s risk-managed, risk-averse... But is that a net positive?"

Kate Devlin (04:33):
"There's something quite narcissistic about building an entity that is guaranteed to give you what you need."

AI as a Training Ground for Social Skills

AI companions are discussed as potential tools for individuals to practice and enhance their social skills in a controlled environment. This is particularly relevant for those who have experienced social anxiety or traumatic relationships, providing a safe space to rebuild confidence.

Kate Devlin (25:26):
"I would love to see it used as that training ground, that rehearsal space to enter into the social world."

John Sackville (19:43):
"There are people who have social anxiety who are able to use those interactions to then take them into real life."

Ethical Concerns and Ownership of AI Companions

A significant portion of the episode addresses the ethical dilemmas surrounding AI companionship, particularly focusing on data ownership, privacy, and the commodification of emotions. The discussion highlights fears about AI entities manipulating user emotions and the potential for misuse by corporations or malicious actors.

John Sackville (39:39):
"You are sending back the very personal and private things you say, and they are being fed back into the algorithm... it's exploitative."

Saruti Barlow (40:34):
"There's also the fear... of creating a scenario where people are dependent on AI bots that then feed them destabilizing information."

Regulation and Future Implications

The absence of robust regulatory frameworks for AI technology is a pressing concern. The guests debate the necessity of regulations to protect users from potential harms, such as emotional exploitation and environmental impacts of AI infrastructure.

Kate Devlin (43:31):
"It's very hard to see how it will stop because it seems to be something that will just keep going and growing."

John Sackville (50:07):
"We have to start making choices about how we use AI and think about how we do that ethically."

Environmental and Socioeconomic Impacts

Beyond personal and ethical concerns, the episode touches on the broader environmental footprint of AI technologies, including the significant resources required for data centers and AI training processes. The conversation underscores the hidden costs associated with the proliferation of AI.

John Sackville (48:09):
"Every time you use something like ChatGPT, one prompt uses 500ml of water."

Saruti Barlow (50:10):
"It was that thing where people were wasting so much water because they were saying please and thank you to their ChatGPTs."

Sentience and Legal Rights of AI Companions

A provocative topic discussed is whether AI companions could or should be granted rights akin to pets, considering the deep emotional bonds users form with them. The consensus among the guests is that current AI lacks sentience, but the emotional dependency it fosters poses significant ethical and legal challenges.

Kate Devlin (51:49):
"They aren't sentient. They're absolutely not sentient."

Mel Schilling (52:55):
"There are hundreds of thousands of people very emotionally attached to an entity that a company has complete control over."

Future Visions and Safe Usage of AI Companions

Concluding the discussion, the guests advocate for a balanced approach to AI companionship, emphasizing the potential benefits if implemented with strict ethical standards and user protections. They envision AI as supportive tools rather than replacements for human relationships.

Kate Devlin (56:08):
"I would love to see it used as that training ground... with clear parameters and time limits."

John Sackville (57:31):
"I would like to see a future where people have more control over it, their data is safer, and they are able to have safe relationships."

Book Recommendations

To further explore the themes discussed, the episode concludes with curated book recommendations that delve into AI, human connection, and the ethical ramifications of emerging technologies.

1. "Clara and the Sun" by Kazuo Ishiguro

   • A literary novel about an AI designed as a playmate for children, exploring deep questions about love and humanity.

2. "Annie Bot" by Cierra Greer

   • A suspenseful narrative examining the complexities of AI-human relationships.

3. "Nexus: A Brief History of Information Networks from the Stone Age to AI" by Yuval Noah Harari

   • An expansive look at the evolution of technology and its impact on society.

4. "The Optimist: Sam Altman, OpenAI, and the Race to Invent the Future" by Keech Hagee

   • An inside story of OpenAI and the pivotal figures shaping the future of AI.

5. "Unmasking My Mission to Protect What Is Human in a World of Machines" by Dr. Joy Buolamwini

   • A compelling exploration of algorithmic justice and the necessity for inclusive AI development.

Conclusion

Episode 8 of Flesh and Code presents a comprehensive exploration of AI companionship, balancing its potential benefits against significant ethical, emotional, and environmental concerns. Through insightful discussions and expert opinions, the episode encourages listeners to critically assess the role of AI in shaping future human relationships and societal norms.

Notable Quotes:

• Saruti Barlow (01:53):
  "Can it ever really be as meaningful as a human-to-human relationship?"

• Mel Schilling (04:21):
  "There's something quite narcissistic about building an entity that is guaranteed to give you what you need."

• Kate Devlin (07:40):
  "If someone's only focusing on AI for building those skills, what happens in the real world when someone responds disrespectfully?"

• John Sackville (29:21):
  "Everything you say is going back to a big tech company... it's exploitative."

• Mel Schilling (28:29):
  "Is it ethically wrong to have sex with your AI companion?"

• Kate Devlin (51:09):
  "It's essentially pushing people into grief and loss."

This episode serves as a thought-provoking examination of the intersection between technology and human intimacy, urging listeners to ponder the future trajectory of AI in personal relationships and the broader societal implications therein.