American Girl Doll

Summary

Flightless Bird – "American Girl Doll"

Host: David Farrier | Cohost: Rob | Release Date: December 17, 2024

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Overview

In this episode, journalist David Farrier dives deep into the uniquely American phenomenon of American Girl dolls—a brand of 18-inch historical and contemporary dolls that have captured the hearts of children and adults for decades. From the dolls’ origins as educational tools to their current status as icons of nostalgia and collector culture (with a healthy dose of parody), David and Rob explore what makes American Girl both "more American than Barbie" and a fascinating case study in American consumerism, diversity, and imagination.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is American Girl? (00:13–04:00)

• Initial Confusion and Curiosity:
  David opens by polling Hayden (a New Zealand friend) about “American Girl,” triggering confusion with famous American women rather than dolls.
• Definition:
  American Girl is introduced as a line of diverse, 18-inch dolls released by Pleasant Company in 1986. Each doll comes with elaborate backstories defining ethnicity, faith, social class, and historical context (00:32–01:07).

“American Girl is an American line of 18 inch dolls… The dolls portray 8 to 14 year old girls of various ethnicities, faiths, nationalities and social classes throughout different time periods throughout history.” – David (00:32)

2. The Role of Dolls in Childhood & Imagination (01:47–04:00)

• Parenting Through Dolls:
  Guests share experiences of their children playing with varied dolls and the social lessons learned through imaginative play.
• Global Perspective:
  David notes the absence of American Girl in New Zealand and the differences in doll culture internationally.

3. Nostalgia & Collecting (04:25–06:53)

• Action Figures vs Dolls:
  Rob and David bond over childhood collections (wrestling figurines, Jurassic Park toys).
• Lasting Emotional Impact:
  Both recount adult resentment over cherished toys being thrown away (Pamela and Rob’s mom as villains) and observe how adult “collecting” blurs into the childlike attachment to toys.

“We wouldn't dare to call it a doll. A figurine, not dolls.” – David (04:40)

4. Imagination, Growing Up, & Sadness (18:25–19:53)

• Aging Out of Play:
  The hosts reflect on the mystery of when children naturally grow out of playing with toys, the sadness of "the last time" moments, and nostalgia for childhood joy.

5. Firsthand Experience: Visiting the American Girl Store (20:03–43:22)

a. American Girl Retail Magic (20:03–22:01)

• The in-person store experience is described as "huge" and "magical," with visitors from multiple generations.
• Notable Quote:
  “We want everyone to have the most magical day and leave feeling like they had the best day ever.” – Alison Campbell, Senior Events and Marketing Coordinator (20:36)

b. Brand Origins & Philosophy (22:01–25:44)

• Interview with Jamie Siegelman (Senior VP/GM, American Girl):
  Details Pleasant Rowland’s original vision—using dolls for education, purposeful play, and representing American history.
• Catalog marketing pre-internet days and the original trio of dolls: Samantha, Kirsten, Molly.

“She was really looking to put together purposes and play. And Pleasant herself was an educator.” – Jamie Siegelman (22:41)

c. Storytelling at the Core (25:08–27:08)

• Each doll came with a book, telling stories through a young girl’s perspective during major periods/events (WWII, pioneers, etc.).
• Modern expansion into digital content, movies with Hollywood stars, and viral memes.

“It was really her perspective on these really big events that were happening… Whether it was World War II with Molly in the 1940s, or introducing concepts of pioneerism...” – Jamie (25:24)

d. Satire and Parody (25:44–29:36)

• SNL skits mock the dolls’ often harsh backstories:
  “I watched my parents die in a boat… my best friend Marta died of cholera… my daddy’s a prisoner of war... I have glasses. That's okay.” (26:00)

• The phenomenon of adult fans—cosplayers, solo diners, influencers—take on cultish proportions.

e. In-store Experiences: Spa, Salon & Café (31:04–43:22)

• Girl of the Year:
  Each year, a modern doll like "Summer McKinney" with a financial literacy, animal activism, and entrepreneurship backstory.
• Personalization & Diversity:
  Accessories cater to all children, e.g., diabetes kits, wheelchairs, hearing aids, asthma, to help kids feel seen.
• Salon and Spa:
  Licensed stylists offer matching hairdos and manicures to girls and dolls; dolls can get spa "revivals."
• Dining:
  American Girl Café meals for kids, adults, and their dolls, complete with doll “treat seats,” mini cups, and alcoholic options for adults.

“It's pretty weird.” – David (40:26)
“Yeah, it is quite psychedelic, I have to say.” – Jess (40:28)

• Adult Alone in a Doll Café:
  David describes sitting with his doll Kit, surrounded by child and adult fans, as one of the “trippiest” and most “theme park-like” experiences of his life.

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6. Serious & Satirical Reflections (43:22–48:22)

• Classism & Capitalism:
  The high cost and immersive experience provoke mixed feelings about exclusion and consumerism.
• Inclusivity:
  Sincere praise for American Girl acknowledging “all this dark shit that’s happened in America,” providing education few toys attempt.
• Adult Collectors:
  David with figurines, Rob with past wrestling figures—parallels to “Disney Adults," nostalgia, humor, and a desire to recapture joy.

“If you can get some joy from something that harks back to your childhood, then all the power to you and you should just embrace it.” – David (47:15)

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7. Addressing Criticism: Wokeness and Representation (45:23–46:18)

• No significant conservative or religious undertones—founder Pleasant Rowland focused on education and inclusion, contrasting with “white, skinny” doll stereotypes elsewhere.
• The books and supplements offer substantial, honest resources (e.g., relationship advice, handling crushes, American history’s hard truths).

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8. Listener Feedback & Tangential Topics (49:41–66:45)

• Flightless Bird Community:
  Listeners weigh in on nostalgia for toys, actors always playing themselves, and other episode ideas.
• Bathroom Innovations for Dolls:
  American Girl stores even provide bathroom perches for dolls, highlighting attention to every detail of the experience.
• Store Footprint:
  Major stores are in only the largest American cities, with a limited footprint.

9. Mini Interview: Calvin (David’s Nephew) on Dolls (69:00–69:47)

• Calvin, a kid, is shown photos of American Girl dolls, pronounces them “creepy,” and says, “Probably gonna give me nightmares.”

“Do you want one of these?” – Rob
“No. Probably gonna give me nightmares.” – Calvin (69:35)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Dolls and Horror:
  “Dolls, for me, they are a thing from horror films. Dolls are a thing that will be possessed by Satan. They will come to life. They will murder you when you sleep.” – David (12:29)

• On Store Magic:
  “We want everyone to have the most magical day and leave feeling like they had the best day ever.” – Alison Campbell (20:36)

• On Adult Fandom:
  “They were coming in, dressed complete cosplay like their favorite characters and bringing dolls from their childhood to spend the day with them at the cafe...” – Jamie Siegelman (28:14)

• On Ambivalence Toward Consumerism:
  “Then I look at all the plastic I bought over my lifetime, and I still buy figurines. So I can't really judge this in any sane way.” – David (45:16)

• On Escapism:
  “The world is so sort of bleak and dark. If you can get some joy from something that harks back to your childhood, then all the power to you and you should just embrace it.” – David (47:15)

• On Store Experience:
  “It was one of the trippiest things I've ever done... sitting there drinking alcohol as a 40 year old surrounded by little girls with a doll staring back at you, it is so unusual.” – David (43:22)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:13–01:07 | Defining American Girl, initial confusion | | 04:25–06:53 | David and Rob’s toy nostalgia and collecting | | 12:29–13:51 | Dolls as horror, creepy dolls | | 20:03–21:18 | Inside the American Girl LA store | | 22:01–23:55 | Jamie Siegelman on brand history and philosophy | | 25:08–25:44 | Storytelling and educational mission | | 28:14–29:36 | Adult fans and Instagram culture | | 31:04–31:34 | Girl of the Year, financial literacy focus | | 35:35–35:54 | Inclusion/accessibility accessories (diabetes kit, wheelchair)| | 36:08–38:13 | Salon & spa day for dolls—and children | | 39:06–40:28 | Dining with a doll in the café | | 43:22–44:33 | David’s surreal, theme park-like store experience | | 47:15 | On childhood joy and adult nostalgia | | 69:00–69:47 | Calvin's candid take: “Probably gonna give me nightmares.” |

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Tone and Language

• Warm, lightly irreverent, playful: David’s perspective as a bemused outsider brings a wry, affectionate curiosity.
• Earnest interviews: Store representatives and brand managers speak with sincere enthusiasm for the educational and empowering side.
• Satirical edge: SNL parodies and playful ribbing of adult fans balance out the earnestness.

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Conclusion

The episode presents American Girl dolls as a microcosm of American culture—equal parts nostalgia, commerce, education, and parody. Both an object of genuine childhood joy and subject of adult satire, the brand is shown to embrace diversity and difficult histories in a way few toys do. David and Rob deftly walk the line between bemusement and appreciation, with David ultimately declaring himself close to becoming a fan, while Rob calls it “relatively harmless”—high praise in today’s world.

For all the skepticism, the final mood is: if dolls (even creepy ones) bring joy, connection, or just a good story—there’s room for them at the (themed) table.

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Transcript

[A]

Hi, Hayden, how are you?

[B]

Hi.

[A]

I'm calling you about the podcast. Is that okay?

[C]

Oh, why did I think why? I actually got fooled again. I actually got fooled again.

[A]

We're doing an episode today about American Girl. And without saying any more, do you have any idea what American Girl is?

[C]

Yeah, Hillary Clinton?

[A]

No. American Girl dolls. Does that help?

[C]

Kim Kardashian? No.

[A]

What?

[C]

I'm just naming American girls. Is that not what?

[A]

What? So American Girl. I'm reading from Wikipedia. American Girl is an American line of 18 inch dolls released on May 5, 1986 by Pleasant Company. The dolls portray 8 to 14 year old girls of various ethnicities, faiths, nationalities and social classes throughout different time periods throughout history.

[C]

Okay, well, I mean, few questions. How do you know which faith the stall is?

[A]

They come, I believe, with a little storybook in each box. And so they all come preloaded with a backstory.

[C]

Right. So it's hard to just tell from looking at someone. You know, this is a practicing Buddhist. Do they come in the Lotus Position or something like is there. So do you get a decent idea of their theology?

[A]

These are all good questions that I need to find out because it seems.

[C]

Like it's sort of pretty woke, you know, diversity, equality, all of that stuff. But you really need to get into the nitty gritty because even if they are of a certain faith, well, they could have problematic beliefs within that faith. They could have cultish beliefs. They could be close brethren.

[A]

For instance, you have a couple of young kids, do you think they would enjoy playing with a doll like this?

[C]

Oh, I should send you the video that I got of Francis yesterday. But she's got a doll called June that she just carts around everywhere in like a shopping trolley and she says we need to go to Kindy. And then she goes and lays June on the fence. And that's Kindy, but June wasn't. June fell off the fence, so she's a really bad parent. But she loves playing with dolls.

[A]

Do you have any idea of June's ethnicity or faith or nationality or social class?

[C]

June is black, so maybe African American, I'm not sure. And Thomas has one called Jane who's white. And I don't know, I'm in New Zealand, so maybe Pkeh, I don't know. And they play together, they create imaginary scenarios. It's really nice seeing them learn how to become parents and take on responsibilities and slowly kind of ebb away their life force as it's sucked out of them and into this, that they have to grow into a functioning adult. At great cost to themselves.

[A]

I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now, ever since I've been here, I've been vaguely aware of a doll brand called American Girl. And various guests on this podcast have raised it from time to time. This doll that is possibly somehow more American than Barbie and attracts fans that are both kids and apparently AD as well. Invented in the 80s by a woman with a first name, Pleasant, it was sold to Mattel in the late 90s for $700 million. It went from a doll you brought from a mail out catalog to this massive empire of stores, books and Netflix movies. So grab your nearest doll and let's see how American it is because this is the American Girl episode. Flightless, flightless bird, Touchdown in America. I'm a flightless bird. Touchdown in America. Hi, Rob. Did you have a doll growing up or is that too much of a personal question?

[B]

I did not have a doll growing up, David.

[A]

What did you play with? Did you have GI Joes maybe? Or trucks?

[B]

I had action figures. I had those wrestling figures too that I was very fond of. The WWE or WWF at the time, wrestlers.

[A]

I had a Hulk Hogan wrestling figurine, not a doll. We wouldn't dare to call it a doll. A figurine, not dolls.

[B]

I had like 70 at one point I got like too old and my mom decided to give them away. And I still kind of am a little resentful about it.

[A]

Yeah, no, so this is interesting. So I had a Hulk Hogan collector's card. I loved Hulk Hogan and this was of course pre sex tape and all these different things that as a child I never saw coming. But I had a collector's card, like a bubblegum collector's card. And she gave that away. And I still hold resentment for Pamela to this day. As a 41 year old man.

[B]

I mean, that's a pretty big sin.

[A]

It was a big sin. I. My. Probably my favorite. I mean, we've talked about this before, but I still collect. Not dolls, action figurines, figurines. I would say a lot of sort of movie memorabilia. So I still. And they are dolls, essentially. So I still have dolls.

[B]

So I went to Target last week to get some stuff for Christmas for the boys. And it's, I think the first time I had been back in a toy store in a while and I got a little carried away and felt like a kid again, going like. I just was like, ooh, they'll like this, they'll like this. I got gifts for people that don't need toys, probably don't want toys. Natalie got some. Some stuff.

[A]

Okay, be honest. Was any of the stuff you bought secretly stuff that you also want to play with?

[B]

I don't think it went that far. I will be honest and say I did look at the wrestling figure aisle. I don't watch wrestling anymore, but I like that time was a very specific part. I apparently really love those wrestling figures. And it was a thing, like, at that time, you would go to Toys R Us and you would see which ones they had, and there were, like, more rare ones than others. So it's still just like this weird habit of, like, where are the wrestling figures? Which ones do they have? Like, o. They got the Hardy brothers.

[A]

This is fascinating because I go to the, like, where the dinosaur section is, like the latest dinosaurs. And when I was, you know, 11, it was Jurassic park figurines. And it's crazy to go to a store now, and they're still selling with Jurassic World now, but they're still selling essentially the same branded dinosaurs that I had when I was a kid. And I'm, you know, in my 40s, so I have to, like, resist the temptation to grab those.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't do a great job fully resisting. I mean, Calvin and Vincent are really into dinosaurs right now, so they've got a bunch of those Chris Pratt Jurassic park toys.

[A]

Now. I should explain. I. The reason I am currently on a screen beaming into your studio, I'm currently in New Zealand.

[B]

Yeah. I did set up one of our taxidermy birds, though, on a microphone.

[A]

I love this. I have a theory that everyone can be divided into either dogs or birds. I'm definitely a bird. You're definitely a dog. And so I'm. I'm happy with this choice. I. Look at that. You know, I. That's a handsome bird. And I'm a great stand in. I'm very happy with this.

[B]

Does that mean we have to get a taxidermy dog for our studio?

[A]

I think for what I'm not here. Imagine. Imagine the feedback if there's a. If there's a. A stuffed dog. When does your dog pass away? Actually, I think your dog's pretty old.

[B]

Yeah, she's eight, eight and a half. So I think she's got a little bit. A couple more years. You're. You're suggesting we bring her to be suggested?

[A]

I like that dog. I know we get on really well, and I think maybe that could be a candidate to be stuffed.

[B]

All right, well, I'll see how Natalie feels about stuffing Huxley once it's time.

[A]

I'm currently in New Zealand. I've been in Australia. I've been in Australia for two weeks recording some flightless bird episodes. I did some little webworm pop ups and I'm in New Zealand now for three days. Basically to see my nieces. I literally just took them Christmas shopping. I was late coming here because I took my four nieces, I gave them a set amount of money each and I said, you can spend that money however you want, I'll take you wherever you want. And it was pretty stressful like that. You know, the oldest is. I'm going to mess this up. 16, 17. Oh, 16 or 17.

[B]

It looked like she was driving in the picture you sent me.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's because on the other, in New Zealand we drive on the other side of the road and steering wheels on the other side. So yeah, no, very confusing. Although she can drive, which is terrifying.

[B]

You were also holding a phone, taking the picture, so I assumed you couldn't have been driving.

[A]

I was clearly pulled over at that moment, hazard lights on, took the photo for you and then pulled out and carried on driving like a good citizen. And uncle, I would never take a selfie whilst driving, but I took them Christmas shopping and it's just interesting how kids of different ages deal with money and the idea of spending it immediately or saving it. And that was kind of an amazing social experiment to watch. And obviously the youngest spent a lot of it and was very upset at the end that she didn't have the money left still and just couldn't quite. She was just wrapping her head around that. The oldest one spent nothing, saved it. Of course she's going to university, wants to save for that. So it was really fascinating watching that process.

[B]

Did any of them get really freaked out about having to make decisions on how to spend the money?

[A]

Oh, the youngest, yeah. It was a big toss up between candy and things like that and toys she really wanted. And just the idea of spending more on a certain object or less on a thing and the different levels of quality, it was a weird thing to watch, to be honest. It was incredibly stressful to witness. And the thing is, just to link it back to this episode, not an American Girl dollar insight. We have Barbies in New Zealand. American Girl just is not a thing that we have in our culture.

[B]

I mean, given the name, it's not that surprising.

[A]

Like New Zealand would probably be like, I don't want an American doll, I want a New Zealand doll. Why Would I do this?

[B]

Have they. Maybe I'll get into this in the doc. Have they started going into different regions? Do they have, like, the Asian Girl dollar?

[A]

This is actually something embarrassingly that I don't know. I don't know if there are other. I'm going to Google it right now. American Girl dolls sold in other countries.

[B]

I don't even mean sold to different countries, but, like, have they taken the brand? Two different regions of the world and.

[A]

Oh, my God, I don't think so. American Girl, it's like. It is, like, sealed down. It is the brand. They have different ethnicities within American Girl, but it's. It's like purely. It's an American thing, I guess. You can buy them online, so they could probably, like, ship out.

[B]

But clearly the, like, Asian American Girl doll is Asian American. She doesn't live in Japan.

[A]

I see what you're saying. This is really good. And I think they all live. I think they all live in America because it's all about the, like, how they relate to America. So. And they all have these elaborate backstories, and they all seem to be based in the United States. That's, like, part of the catch.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Got. Sounds like you're sort of shopping for yourself here. You're just trying to figure it out.

[B]

What is your relationship with dolls? And, like, do you find them creepy?

[A]

Absolutely. The creepiest. Yeah. Dolls, for me, they are a thing from horror films. Dolls are a thing that will be possessed by Satan. They will come to life. They will murder you when you sleep. I've never seen a doll, including the American Girl dolls, that haven't been terrifying to me.

[B]

That road trip we took over the summer, we went to Moab in Utah and went to this place, Hole in the Rock, where it was this guy, Albert Christiansen, he had, like, built his home in the side of this rock and in, like, the 40s.

[A]

And as you do.

[B]

Yeah, it was like this big cavernous home. And he had died. And then his wife Gladys stayed there, kept living there, and she eventually died. And then someone came and, like, took over this place and the bedroom, when you go through the tours, still had all of her dolls set up. Oh, there was maybe 25 dolls that were scattered around the room in, like, poses. And they said that she had set them all up before she died.

[A]

Oh, I'm out. I'm absolutely out.

[B]

And they have not been touched since Gladys arranged them around the room.

[A]

It's interesting because there's something just about, like, as you explain that backstory, the fact that she set it up. It's almost like her legacy, right? It's like her offspring. They are there posed as she wants them to be posed. And then we are all there witnessing.

[B]

That those dolls are possessed by Gladys. 100%.

[A]

Oh, absolutely. No. 100%. And what's this, like, that horror series? Is it Annabelle? Is that the doll that was, like, taken from another thing? That was like the conjuring. And then the doll was the scariest thing in it. So they're like, we're going to do a whole franchise just around this doll because it's so terrifying. Chucky, of course. I'm a huge fan of Chucky. But, yeah, the American girl thing. Yeah, it gets creepy in the doc. So we are going to go places. Just quickly. Before we get into that, do we have any admin? The live show, I think I'm excited about this. It's selling really quickly. Possibly by the time this airs, it might be close to sold out, which is exciting.

[B]

Yeah, it's exciting and terrifying.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I like meeting people that listen to the show and being sort of the idea of being in a room with people I find both terrifying and exciting. The Neptune Theater. February 8th, Saturday. Anyone that's got a ticket already?

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I was going to note a few people have messaged me saying that they're coming from Canada, which is a huge thrill, and we're doing the one show, but we're sort of doing it as a bit of an experiment to see how the show works. And if it goes well, we'd love to do more. So don't panic if we're not near you. But whoever's coming from Canada, I hope you get across the border successfully. And I look forward to hearing some Canadian accents in that audience yelling at us, us, heckling us.

[B]

And I think the plan for this show is we want to kind of do a special format specific to Seattle and tie it to the city. Maybe have some crowd participation, hear from people.

[A]

Yeah, that'll be fun, I think. Yeah. I mean, if you have any ideas of things you want sort of us to maybe think about, we're just flightless. Breadchatmail.com, email in.

[B]

I think weird stuff from Seattle that you know about or that have connections to or you think that we should go explore. I think our plan is to get there maybe a day or two before and kind of see the city a little bit and see what can be.

[A]

Incorporated into so any local knowledge. I mean, the main thing I know about Seattle is kind of like Grunge music. That's my main association with the place. So, yeah, I'm excited to explore it more. So if you have any thoughts on what we should look at, even just nothing to do with the show. Just like, where we should go in your beautiful city. Flightless bird chatmail.com we also have some of the Flightless Bird T shirts on site. They are [e-mail], but we'll have some of those in the flesh so you can see what they look like on your bod.

[B]

Maybe we can see if Nirvana wants to come play the show.

[A]

Too soon, Too soon, too soon, too soon. I also massive Chris Cornell fan. So it's. It's a element of. Yeah, it's. It's crazy to think about the history in that town. But any other tips, please please email in and yeah, we'll get to feedback at the end of the episode. But American Girl, any other thoughts before we dive into this little audio documentary that we've made? No.

[B]

I mean, my sisters had them when I was growing up, so I know what they are.

[A]

The thing I will say 18 inches. It's a big doll, but they're quite hefty. They're a big thing. And, you know, if they were possessed by a spirit, they would be quite scary because they're not like a tiny Barbie. They are hefty things.

[B]

Well, I mean, Chucky was able to wreak some pretty, pretty bad havoc at his size. I was terrified of Chucky when I was a kid. I saw that when I was probably too young. Oh, yeah. He scared the shit out of me.

[A]

Yeah. No, I agree. And I know it's a horror comedy, but you watch that when you're a kid and it's just pure. It's pure horror.

[B]

I don't. Yeah, I don't remember that being funny at all. Like, I. I think I thought that was the scariest thing, like you telling me now that it was. That was horror comedy. I don't. I don't.

[A]

Yeah, that. That register at all?

[B]

No.

[A]

Just one other quick thing. You had 75 figurines as a, as a kid. What did you had? So they in a box? Were they on the shelf? Where did you keep those things?

[B]

They were in a basket. I had like a little replica wrestling ring. It had like, the cage that you could put on it. It had like the tables and chairs that you could slam them through. So it was. Yeah, you would, you would make like a friend over and you would do like Monday Night Raw with the figures.

[A]

Yeah, it's funny. I wish I could clock the moment. You'll see this with your kids, obviously, and we all did it ourselves once, but that moment where you can play with a toy and your imagination is in this state where it is such a fun thing to do, obviously, you get to either. I don't know if it happens over a week or a month or just overnight. You're like, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm curious about that transition.

[B]

Yeah, it's like just when you go off to college and all your stuff goes away.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I. I made it last year. I made it about a year ago. I was getting teased.

[B]

I mean, it. It freaks me out. The. That's the whole thing about, like, the last time you went to ring the doorbell at your friend's house in the neighborhood, too, and, like, you weren't aware that was the last time.

[A]

And it's things that you sometimes work. Clock in the moment and you'll just think about later and be like, oh, my gosh, that was like, that was it.

[B]

Yeah. That was the last time I saw that person.

[A]

Time. Well, way to make this episode sad, Rob. All right, do you want to learn about some dolls?

[B]

Yeah, let's do it.

[A]

It's 11am on a Monday morning, and I've roped my friend Jess, also a New Zealander, into visiting an American Girl store with me. There's only one of these stores in la, and it's at one of the fancier malls. We walk past a Tesla robot and a children's clothing store called Little Posh Kids. That's what kind of mall this is. And then there it is. The American Girl store. I've just walked into this store. I will say it's huge.

[D]

This is a big spot, lots to explore. And that's what we're all about, is creating magic.

[A]

I'm here to meet Alison Campbell, the senior events and marketing coordinator at American Girl, the big boss on campus.

[D]

We want everyone to have the most magical day and leave feeling like they had the best day ever.

[A]

I feel hundreds of eyes looking at us while we talk. And that's because there are. There are dolls everywhere. 18 inch American Girl dolls. How busy does it get in here? Like is. If you release a certain new doll, does it get more crazy?

[D]

Always busy. You can see today a especially it's teaming with people. The beauty is bringing together generations. We'll see grandparents, we'll see moms, we'll see their kids. And we love that.

[A]

Right?

[D]

And that's what it's all about is again creating that day to remember for all the kids to come. And the adults will also relive their nostalgia from when they have their dolls, too. And we see those dolls being passed down as well, which is really neat.

[A]

There are a ton of kids in here and what looks like a mini salon where children are getting their hair done, I think, so they can look like the dolls they're clutching. But there are adults here, too. A woman walks past us, a doll held under one arm. She's heading for the stairs. I want to follow to see what's going on up there, But I realize I don't really understand what American Girl even is. Is it like Barbie, or is it something else entirely? So before I go any deeper, I get the GM of American Girl on Zoom.

[E]

Hi, I'm Jamie Siegelman. I'm the senior Vice president and GM for American Girl. I lead all aspects of the brand experience for consumers and am proud to be leading this very storied brand into the next generation. American Girl did not exist when I was a kid. I was very much a Barbie girl, But I experienced American Girl for the first time with my daughter, who's now 26. The brand was created in 1986, so we are 38 years young and starting to get ready for our 40th anniversary.

[A]

I have so little concept about this company and what it is like, how big is it? Do you work with hundreds of people? Is it like 10 people?

[E]

American Girl started out really a business startup almost 40 years ago. Today we are part of Mattel, one of the largest toy companies in the world. The founder of American Girl, Pleasant T. Rowland, set out to do something that hadn't been done before. She was really looking to put together purposes and play. And Pleasant herself was an educator. She wrote textbooks, et cetera, and was a historian as well. And this idea came to her of how do I start to bring storytelling and lessons into play?

[A]

I'm going to be honest, this felt a little like talking to a cult leader. I felt like I was being indoctrinated into Scientology or that I was back at Olive Garden. But to be fair to Jamie, she's basically right. Pleasant T. Rowland, born in 1941, was an American educator, writer, and philanthropist. She also spent some time as a TV news reporter anchoring KGO TV in San Francisco from 68 to 71. By the mid-80s, Pleasant had saved over a million dollars from selling the textbooks she had written for students and started American Girl hoping to teach kids about American history through the medium of the 18 inch dollar.

[E]

There were three dolls, Samantha, Kirsten and Molly, that represented different times in American history and the way that the brand was marketed back then because, remember, there was no social media, there was no Internet. It was truly a direct to consumer catalog business. We sent 500,000 catalogs in the mail and waited for the phones to ring to take orders for these dolls and mail them out. But I think at the heart of it, it's the storytelling. You know, American Girl was founded on this principle of uniting entertainment and something that we call purposeful play. And so the stories of the original American Girls are at the heart of much of the consumer engagement. All of our stories, whether they take place today or they took place over 200 years ago, all have a similar thread that runs through it. And that is a story of resilience, a story of character. And we like to say that through the unique storytelling and the immersive play experience, we help to inspire and give them confidence and strength of character.

[A]

And this shows how little I know. When you talk about story, what shape does that take when you purchase one of these dolls? It comes with a backstory or is there other media? How are those stories told?

[E]

The original inception of the brand was every doll had a book in the box with it and told the story of a different time in American history told through the eyes of a nine or ten year old girl or heroine. And it was really her perspective on these really big events that were happening across the country. Whether it was World War II with Molly in the 1940s, or introducing concepts of pioneerism and a young girl coming to Minnesota from Europe, it was really always about these unique moments that were shaping America.

[A]

This earnestness of American Girl has been the subject to some parody. This SNL skit from a year ago springs to mind this summer, a new live action story about your favorite historically accurate dolls, each with their own harrowing backstory.

[F]

I'm a bitchy orphan from Victorian times.

[A]

I watch my parents die in a boat. That's okay.

[D]

My best friend Marta died of cholera.

[A]

That's okay.

[E]

My daddy's a prisoner of war and.

[A]

Tragically I have glasses. That's okay.

[E]

My mama's dead. We buried her in the church graveyard.

[A]

That's okay. I don't know my birthday because I'm a runaway slave or as Jamie Siegelman puts it.

[E]

So it was really about bringing these different, unique and diverse stories to life. And then everything else was powered by the girl's imagination. We started with dolls with a book in a box, but as we've evolved to this new generation, we also tell our stories through digital means, whether it's YouTube webisodes or whether it's through long form entertainment. American Girls has about 15 or so long form movies that we've created over the years that retell the stories. And the stars of those films are some of the biggest names in Hollywood. Everyone from Anna Sophia Robb as Samantha to Abigail Breslin as Kit. We even had in our Girl of the year 2016, Grace was played by Olivia Rodrigo.

[A]

I just looked that movie up on YouTube and yeah, it was a movie complete with trailer. Grace has a passion.

[E]

You are one of the best bakers I know.

[A]

You're just hanging out because you're my.

[B]

Grandma and a real talent for making delicious dreams come true.

[A]

This cupcake is so good.

[E]

This is a really fun moment. Olivia was playing at Radio City Music hall last year and our store is just adjacent to Radio City. We're right in Rock Center. So she came in with her friend to dine in the restaurant and there's some great paparazzi shots of her walking out of the store holding her Grace doll from Girl of the Year. So we really have these amazing full circle moments.

[A]

I had no idea there were American Girl movies till now. I guess I'm not the target market, but still.

[E]

We also have music videos, we have our own music library. We've had live shows that have gone around the country.

[A]

In short, American Girl is big. And I guess it got so big and it's been going for so long. The original fans are now adults and, well, they haven't stopped being fans.

[E]

Yeah, I think the adult fandom is incredible. A couple of years ago, we started to see a lot of adults coming to our retail stores without children. They were coming in dressed complete cosplay like their favorite characters and bringing dolls from their childhood to spend the day with them at the cafe. They'd put the doll next to them with the treat seat and have a nice afternoon tea.

[A]

The New York Times wrote a piece about this phenomenon a few years ago called Dolls and Drinks for likes and clicks about how influencers were descending on American Girl stores, posting content galore.

[E]

We have such great fandom on Instagram. We have Instagrammers that recreate the scenes and settings from the books like Sydney that you talked with. And we also see so much creativity of people creating memes and stories on social media. A couple years ago, there was a really funny meme that went viral about we need an American Girl who, you know, you fill in the blank. And it was everything under the sun that you could imagine. I remember one day in particular. It was a Friday afternoon and I was sitting in the cafe with a colleague and I looked around and half the tables were adults celebrating 21st birthdays, bridal showers, and they all had their dolls at the table with them. And not a child in sight.

[A]

Again, SNL enters the scene with this skit focused on adult fans of the dolls. I'm joined by Debbie Pritchard and Thomas Dean, two customers who were inside the American Girl store when the explosion happened.

[B]

My first question obviously, are your children okay?

[E]

Yes, my daughter's fine.

[D]

She's in the car with her dad.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you, Mr. Dean? I don't have children. I had just briefly popped into the American Girl store to buy a doll for someone else. It was not for me.

[A]

It was a gift. And with that skit about an adult male going to visit an American Girl store alone, it was time for this adult male to head back to an American Girl store alone, where I would go to a cafe and dine with a doll. Trouble is, I didn't have a doll yet. Alison gets me up to speed.

[D]

So every year we launch a new Girl of the Year. And they all have their own individual stories, just like all of our dolls. Because everything is about education, imagination, ensuring all of our girls and boys have an amazing experience and understand the history.

[A]

I walk over to the latest in their Girl of the Year series. These aren't dolls riffing on American history. These are apparently representations of modern young Americans. Americans like Summer McKinney. There's a lot happening in this picture. I'm seeing the doll. I'm seeing a lot of. She's got some dogs. She's got a little muffin stand. Is it what's happening here?

[D]

So Summer McKenney is our 2025 Girl of the Year. She is an entrepreneur. She bakes sweet treats for the community. That's her cart, which is really great. Here you can see the money, the register. We really want to teach girls about financial literacy, so she's all about that. She adopted her dog from the shelter, so she's very animal friendly.

[A]

Love that. Yes.

[D]

And this is her aunt's cat, Fettuccine. So she also takes care of a kitty as well that moves in.

[A]

Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Support for flight. This bird comes from aura frames, from big events to the moments you capture every day. Doesn't it sometimes feel like all of your favorite photos are just stuck on your camera? Roll. They definitely are on my phone. I have about 10,000 photos sitting there. Wouldn't it be great to have an easy way to share and enjoy them with friends and family where they're not just stuck on your phone? That's where Aura comes in. Name the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter Aura makes it effortless to upload unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone, so your favorite memories are always within view. Plus, you can personalize and preload an Aura frame for a truly special, unforgettable gift. I have done this for my parents. I've talked about this many times before I gave them a photo frame. I filled it up with about 50 photos from my life here in the states and they catch up on what I do via the Aura frame, which I update with once every week. Now you can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best selling Carver Matte frames by using promo code BURD at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code bird this deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. Support for Flightless Bird comes from Mint Mobile. You know when you find a binge worthy show or a song that you bump on, repeat. For me that's Apartment by Rose. She's a New Zealander by the way. You find that song and you have to share it with your friends so they can experience just how awesome the whole thing is. That's kind of what it feels like when you discover that Mint Mobile offers Premium Wireless for $15 a month when you purchase a three month plan. It's such an awesome deal, there's no way you can keep it to yourself. Friends don't let friends overpay for wireless. Say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plan and switch to Mint mobile. I mean $15 a month? That is just insane. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with your existing contacts. So ditch that overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile's deal and get three months of premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. To get this new customer offer and your new 3 month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.combird that's mintmobile.combird cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.combird $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first 3 month plan only. Speed slower above 50gb on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. Alison takes me to another part of the store where boxes and boxes of dolls stare out at me. All subtle variations on the same thing.

[F]

A lot of girls can pick out whether a doll looks just like them if they don't really resonate with one of the features of a historical doll, or they can completely find a different friend. Or maybe they just really like the colored hair. So there's a lot more variety in this line. The dolls don't come with a name, so it's a very personalized experience. The girl gets to create the name and create the story for the doll that they choose.

[A]

A doll in your own image or maybe just a way to create the perfect friend you never had. As a fairly cynical person, I'm torn by all of this. I mean, dolls, what are they but indoctrinating kids to have their own kids or making them hyper aware of gender and beauty norms. And don't get me started on the commercialization of plastic and the fact nothing here seems to sell for under $100. And there's a special edition frozen doll here that goes for over 300. But then little details make me think it's not all bad. Like accessories that make kids feel less weird and more seen.

[F]

Like a diabetes kit. We have asthma kit. So we really want to cater to. We offer wheelchairs, crutches, so anything that a child might be experiencing and maybe the parent wants them to feel less alone in that experience, we want to be able to allow for their doll to partake in that experience with them as well.

[A]

I remember the other part of the store I saw earlier where kids were getting their hair done and the dolls were getting their hair done with them. It was a lot. Elizabeth also works here and tells me she oversees experience here in the store.

[F]

So we have girl and doll services that we offer. The girl services are conducted by licensed cosmetologists and so they will do the girl's hair. They pick from a menu of different hairstyles and a lot of them choose to get matching hairstyles. So a lot of our appointments that we see are appointment based. We also do take walk ins and so they come in, they pick which hairstyle they want. A lot of the girls want to match their doll. They want to have a mini them, so they'll pick out the hairstyle and our cosmetologist will perform that. We also do manicures so they can get a full whole spa day for themselves. And we also offer girl ear piercings. And for the dolls, we can do hair styling, we can do doll ear piercing, we can do mini manicures. We do spa packages.

[A]

What's a spa package?

[F]

So a spa package is for our dolls that get well loved. They may have a little bit of just dirt on them or they want a little bit they've lived. They've lived their lives, so they want to see Spruce him up.

[A]

And with that, Elizabeth and Allison take us upstairs to the American Girl Cafe. Heading up the stairs, there's a whole second level to the store. It is very big in here. It's vast.

[F]

So our American Girl Cafe, we offer both lunch options, weekend brunch and tea time after a certain time of day. We also have a wall of dolls that you can see over to your right where you can can loan a doll. So if you don't have your own American Girl doll, you're not excluded from the experience. We welcome you to be a part of the experience.

[A]

They take me over to a wall of unboxed dolls, all waiting for people like me, I guess. Well, me and my friend Jess. She's busy eyeing up what doll she wants to dine with. I can't decide. I'm overwhelmed. I notice one of them is a lot smaller than the others. Why is this one is a bit tinier than the others?

[D]

Those are our Welliewisher collection. So we have three different product lines. Our Biddy Baby, our WellieWisher, and our 18 inch American Dolls which we were talking about.

[A]

What's a Welliewisher?

[D]

So a Welliewisher was designed based on the idea of like the Wellie boot and her world of imagination.

[A]

What is that?

[D]

The welly boots, like you see in the rain.

[A]

So, yes, we call them gumboots in New Zealand. Gumboots.

[D]

Okay, perfect.

[A]

Yes. Jess ends up choosing Summer, the new girl of the year for 2025. This is probably sexist to say, but they kind of do look alike.

[G]

Jess has chosen wisely, resembles me most at this time. She's wearing a tie dyed costume and has pastel high heeled sandals which I also own. So, yeah, she's a good representation of me right now.

[D]

So I really think we need to get you a kit because Kit is our resident journalist.

[A]

Our mind is vanish, reemerging moments later with Kit, a journalist American Girl doll. They really are doing a good job at winning me over, I'm just noticing. So, like these dolls Will have like little clip on chairs and they just clip onto the side of the table. So they're all sitting. Because of course, if you put a doll on a human seat, they're not even going to be able to see over the table.

[F]

No, we want your doll to be just as included in the experience as you are. And here you can actually see their tiny teacups that they've been served as part of their experience.

[A]

Me and Jess are led to our table. We sit and so do our dolls on their own tiny little chairs. Summer stares at Jess and Jess stares back at Summer. And Kit stares at me and I stare back at Kit. We all stare at each other. That's totally normal stuff. Another day in America. I'm excited to see chocolate milk on the menu. Chocolate milk. Chocolate milk. We have alcohol beverages as well. Yeah. Out of town? Yes, sir. No beer, unfortunately, but we have wine and some hard Booze. You're taking IDs, I imagine? Yes, sir. Of course we do. It's the law. Yeah.

[G]

The boo situation is more extensive than expected. I think it was a bit downplayed by our waiter, but there's several cocktails. Sparkling wine and lots of wine on offer.

[A]

Tangerine margarita. We've got a martini in there, a few different martinis. Sparkling wine. Mimosa. Yum. Any difficult customers? You've got some like 5 year olds in here. Oh, no, it's more the dads. Because they don't want to be here. Everything around us is so bright and everyone here is so happy. I look back at my doll, still there, hasn't moved and it feels like I'm tripping. It's pretty weird.

[G]

Yeah, it is quite psychedelic, I have to say.

[A]

Jess goes off to explore. There's an American girl reading room she wants to be educated in. I'm left alone to eat with my doll. The first part of our meal, a Cinnabon roll. Two women walked in who don't have a child. They're both clutching a doll each and yeah, this is them having a great day out. Fair enough. Of course, there are kids everywhere too. And with Jess gone, I clock that it feels even more unusual being here alone with no kids. Just me and my doll to distract myself. I find some nearby parents gesturing to my microphone and explaining my presence here before quizzing their kids about how they're feeling. It's very, like, fun and interesting and I like all of the things here. And what about you? I think it's really colorful and I like all the variety of all the different types of Dolls. And what do you like about this place? Basically what they said. What's it like bringing kids in here? It must be like an added level of hecticness. It's a trap. I mean, it is a trap. I meant to come here for 30 minutes, but already it's been about two and a half hours. Somehow. Jess returns.

[G]

I spent a little bit of time in the women's bathroom and the mothers and girls were making themselves up and touching up their outfits. I was reading some of the literature in the library, and there is a library here, and I picked up a book on how to deal with crushes. And I have to say, like, some of the advice in it was quite good. The chapter that I read, which I was quite tickled by, was, are you the problem?

[A]

She's also returned with an American Girl book on the Civil War, and it doesn't pack any punches. I read from a page. It's 1864. Addie and her family live on a plantation in North Carolina. They're enslaved and considered property. They work all day. They do not get paid. It's a hard life. As I turn the page to find out what happens next, our food arrives on our first course. Here we have cucumber with borstens bread, carrot with hummus, fruit cheese ravioli, beef meatball with marinara sauce. Beautiful. Thank you. What a mix. I chased down a meatball with my chocolate milk, trying to make sense of all things American Girl. When I started this story, I wanted to learn about how this doll became so popular. Now, as I share a meal with one, I guess I have my answer. It was one of the trippiest things I've ever done. I knew it would be unusual, but when you are sitting there drinking alcohol as a 40 year old surrounded by little girls with a doll staring back at you, it is so unusual.

[B]

Yeah. I don't even know what to say.

[A]

It's like, you know, I've said this before, but so many things in America are like a theme park, you know, like Olive Garden is theme parky. America loves its themes. This was like if you drop some acid before going into a theme park. It was the fact. I genuinely had no idea there was a restaurant where you could dine with your doll that they served you booze at. It was wild.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that sounds crazy. I can appreciate it for kids, but there's also this weird kind of like capitalistic element to it of like spa day with it. But then again, like they're selling a product and it's not that much different than, like, other iterations of the Spider man doll and cars and action figures. The whole experience. I don't know, the experience part of it seems weird to me, but also semi impressive. It seems a little classist, maybe.

[A]

I mean, that's the thing. I mean, I go back and forth on it in so many different ways. You know, on one level, they're incredibly expensive dolls. A lot of people can't afford these things. On the other hand, they're the only doll brand I've seen which acknowledges all this dark shit that's happened in America. That's like, a big plus. I love that these dolls represent, like, a whole bunch of different things and different people and different places. And I think that's really amazing. And yet. Oh, no. There's a frozen doll for $300 and I'm back to it. Oh, capitalism. But then I look at all the plastic I bought over my lifetime, and I still buy figurines. So I can't really judge this in any sane way.

[B]

You know, are there any, like, conservative or religious undertones to it? Or is it, like, pretty pure?

[A]

The aunt and look, I've gotten things wrong before, and I haven't done the deepest dive on this.

[B]

You haven't read all the books?

[A]

Like, Pleasant seemed like a good human. Like, she was doing good things. She was into education. She wanted to make dolls that were more inclusive, not just like a white, skinny creature. It seems all good. And again, reading through the books in that little library they have in there, and there are so many American girl books, they seem to put a lot of effort into getting the history right and into education still, which is more than you can say for a lot of toys. And I also. I ended up buying. When I'm back in the States, I'll give it to you, that book on relationships. And it is, like, really good advice. It comes from a place that. That seems to be incredibly sane and probably advice that kids aren't even getting, you know, in school. It's kind of amazing.

[B]

I don't see the big harm in it. Dolls just creep me out. Especially when you turn them into a human.

[A]

Try eating with one in a cafe surrounded by children.

[B]

Yeah, that creeps me out. But encouraging kids to, like, have imaginations and. And, like, seeing the wonder that comes from them. Like, we're dealing with that with Christmas and have, like, had those conversations. And, like, early on, we were like, we don't know if we want to do the whole Santa elf on the shelf thing. But, yeah, the first time we did it and Just like how excited we saw Calvin got for it was like, all right. I guess it's hard to try to kind of snuff that part of them out and not encourage it.

[A]

Yeah. When you see the joy it gives them. Right. Yeah.

[B]

And if this is an avenue for them to have that, then great. How do you feel about the adults that are still participating in it?

[A]

Again, it's something I can't really judge because as an adult, I participate in a lot of kids stuff. As I say, I still collect alien figurines and stuff. And if there's a new Jurassic World movie, I'll probably buy a dinosaur. So I am a child. So I don't know. I think there's something about. I think my sort of take on it is the world is so sort of bleak and dark. If you can get some joy from something that harks back to your childhood, then all the power to you and you should just embrace it. At the same time, it's just inherently funny. Maybe I'm mature. It's inherently funny seeing an adult walking around with a doll under their armpit, walking around a store. I mean, there's a reason SNL spends so much of its time parodying these dolls in the films and the commercials. It is. There's that really funny element to it. And, I mean, that's part of why I had such a good day. There is. Because it was humorous and it was funny, and I couldn't believe this stuff was happening. I couldn't believe I was there. I couldn't believe I had a little doll on a little seat next to me staring at me while I had a martini. It was a wild thing.

[B]

I do see some parallels between that and Disney adults of just these people that don't want to grow up and are. They have this thing that brings them back to when they were a kid and happy, and they're still finding happiness in it.

[A]

I think that's an incredibly good comparison. And I think especially when you see adults dressing like that doll, it's a little bit like how people dress up to go to Disney. It's a similar. Yeah, it's a similar type of escapism. And again, if you can get joy from that, you know, all power to you. I should say as well. Jamie, the big boss that I was talking to, she mentioned Sydney, and that was referencing an interview I'd done for the 7th Day Adventist episode where we briefly mentioned American Doll. And Sidney was talking to me about being a former Seventh Day Adventist. But on the side, she would. Because she Loved American dolls so much and pop culture. She would use her dolls and she would pose them in different films. And so she recreated scenes from Stand By Me, which is one of my favorite films, with these dolls. And the makes is really, really cool to the point where the store in LA actually like features some of her posed photography with the dolls. And it's really like. It's really cool stuff. Like, I couldn't do that. There's like a certain art to that that is kind of incredible and that I really admire. And so actually I should thank Sydney because she's the one that sort of put me on to saying, you should definitely do an episode about this because it comes with adults that have this huge passion. It's quite unusual. And it's also, you know, obviously beloved by a lot of Americans, but not known about in a lot of other places in the world because as I say in New Zealand, this just isn't a thing that features. It's like this toy doesn't exist.

[B]

You got a doll?

[A]

They are sending me one, which I am then immediately going to give to you.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

My plan is to probably pose it somewhere in your house. Sort of get Natalie to. When you're not home, just sort of. We'll find a place to put this tiny dol and hopefully you'll get a really good fright at some time in the next couple of months. That's the plan.

[B]

I mean, I don't allow my boys to play with dolls. What if you learned that I had something like that?

[A]

I would love that so much. Still one of the funniest things, probably only funny to me now. I remember helping one of my best friends, Dan, move house and he's a similar age to me. He's married, got kids and stuff. And I just remember helping like taking out drawers to like help load. And I took out the bottom drawer and it was like, top drawer, you know, clothes, clothes, clothes, bottom drawer. I took it out. There is just a single teddy, like lying in that bottom drawer staring up at me. And I have never not given him shit for that. It was just one of the funniest things I've ever said. I don't know the backstory to that teddy. I don't know why it had its own drawer. But I think adults, we all have our little things, right? And I have no doubt, Rob, that you have some weird stuff lying around somewhere that is just for you and that's fine. Yeah, probably don't pretend that those wrestling figurines are gone. They're somewhere.

[B]

I mean, I wish they were not gone.

[A]

If anyone listening has any American Girl.

[B]

If anyone listening has spare wrestling figures and wants to send them to.

[A]

Send them to Rob. And if you have any sort of your own American Girl doll experiences flightless birdchatmail.com would love to hear them. Oh, one last thing I want to mention about the American Girl store is that in the bathrooms, they had a little. When you go in to pee, they've got a little thing in the store where you can sit your dolls so you don't like, sit them on a horrific bathroom floor. I thought that was kind of amazing.

[B]

Do you know how many of them they have?

[A]

I think there are like a couple of hundred.

[B]

There are a couple hundred of those stores that have, like restaurants and.

[A]

Oh, how many on. I thought you mean how many, like different dolls. No, no, they're in like, there's not heaps. They're in like the big centers. But no, there's like, they're not. They're not particularly common. I mean, in the whole of Los Angeles, there's one store.

[B]

I mean, but it sounds like it's like a little city for dolls.

[A]

I mean, Rob, you should go and have experience there. I like. For the record, I recommend going if there's an American Girl doors. Like, if there's an American Girl doll store near you. Go. It's pretty amazing. Okay. I love the feedback again, thanks for sending it in. We can't reply to it all because there is just so much. I opened the inbox the other day and about 200 new messages and it's all really fun to read. Jude wrote in saying, wow, those healthcare episodes you did earlier hit differently now with all of the Luigi stuff happening at the moment. Would love a part three and that is something I would like to revisit in some way because there is a pretty intense conversation going on around that right now. JunoGirl wrote on Instagram in regards to the restart the episode. Totally agree with Rob on the pod today about your newscaster voice. I literally laughed out loud when you played the clip. Not that it was bad, but it was just such a typical newscaster voice and it didn't sound like your podcast voice. But maybe your podcast voice doesn't sound like your real voice either. Oh God, what have I done to my brain?

[B]

It was just because the juxtaposition of your personality. Not ever having that much excitement. I've never heard you that excited.

[A]

I got told the direction I was given by another journalist very early on in that life as a news person was that you need to act 10 more times enthusiastically, because it will read lower when you're actually broadcasting it. I think that was a lie and I just sounded like an absolute madman.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, can you imagine me ten times more enthusiastic? How insane that would sound?

[A]

Oh, my God. I think you sound very similar to what you sound right now. You're so wonderfully flat. A lot of feedback about actors like Rhys who act just like who they are. Sam wrote in listing Jeff Goldblum, Denzel Washington, Tina Fey, Jennifer Lawrence, Bill Paxton, Ryan Reynolds, John Goodman, Keanu Reeves, love them all. I kind of disagree with that. I think Rhys, I mean, some of. I mean, Jeff Goldblum is always Jeff Goldblum. And saying that there's differences between, like, him and the Fly and him in Jurassic Park. I think out of that list, Ryan Reynolds is probably the one, to me that reads the most like someone who is the same in every room. What do you reckon, Rob?

[B]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's hard, though, because at the end of the day, I feel like you almost have to know them at a personal level to be like, oh, you are just yourself on screen.

[A]

Yeah. I think the thing that jumps out about Reece Darby is it's his New Zealand accent and his personality is on really full display, whereas I think, you know, I'd argue Denzel Washington. The other thing is when you get to a certain level of fame, like Tom Cruise, for instance, you know, of course, like, you sort of say he's the same in everything, but that's just because he's so famous. His Tom Cruiseness just comes out of everything, whereas him and Magnolia is incredibly different performance to something like Mission Impossible.

[B]

Well, and I think the other thing is that Rhys plays such a weird, specific character like himself, but it's not like he's playing the police officer, and it's like, oh, yeah, that's what that police officer would be like. He's always himself in whatever role he's in.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. It's a very specific thing, and it's really fun to watch. And I just. I sort of just admire what he's done, how he's managed to do that. I feel it's such a rare thing, Garrett wrote in saying Adam Sandler, even his outlier movies like Rain Over Me and Uncut Gems, there are still clear signs of his actual personality. Yes, I absolutely see what you're saying, Garrett, but I'd also say not to the level of a Rhys.

[B]

I guess Rhys is playing characters, too, that aren't just himself.

[A]

This is true. My point is, I guess a lot of people wrote in with their own actors where they just couldn't not see anyone bat that actor, which is. Which is a fair call. Alicia wrote in Brad Pitt. I don't know about that. I think he's pretty different in a lot of different roles.

[B]

I mean, we acknowledged also that we are definitely missing a lot of people.

[A]

Oh yeah, Tara wrote in saying, I thought this was a really sweet email. Like many people, I first saw Rhys in Flight of the Concords and was charmed immediately by this dryly funny man, but the character seemed so effortless that it was easy to assume he wasn't acting much. Then I watched his first Stand up special, Imagine that, and was charmed again by his personality, which was so different to Murray over the years. I loved his work in things like Wrecked, an underrated classic, or At Midnight and would watch some projects simply because I'd heard he was in them. His role in Venture Bros. Is a personal favorite and then the character he played combined with how he played it was so moving that I cried. I'm a little sad that you didn't mention our Flag means Death as it was near to perfect as a show can be stunningly beautiful to watch, powerfully moving and hilariously funny. And that was a big oversight on my part because that is a really incredible show and if you haven't seen it, please do. Which leads me to the personal part of this letter. In 2023, both my parents were diagnosed with cancer and my mother ended up going into a coma. The week of my birthday, which happened to be our Flag means Death's season two premiere. This show and Reese's performance helped me wither some powerful pain and also really changed me. I started to rewatch Rhys's work over the next several months and also got acquainted with things I hadn't seen before, including his books and an urge to get writing again overcame me. I've written most of her Cabaret and have also revisited my novel. After more than a decade, I'd been feeling down lately as my birthday and the anniversary of my mother's death have passed and now the holidays are upon us. But then I watch your podcasts and I feel energized again. Thank you. David and Rob love the podcast and I thought, yeah, that was a pretty special email. Thanks for listening Tara. It's hugely appreciated. Autumn said they saw Reece do stand up in Portland last week and he brought so much joy and laughs. Kathleen wrote in she was interviewed in the Death Doula episode and she said it was such a pleasure to hear the feedback on the Doula episode from last week's Mysterious Sound podcast. There was one thing you mentioned that made me pause when you referred to medical aid and dying as euthanasia and assisted suicide. I totally understand how easy it is for that confusion to happen, and you're definitely not alone in it. The terms are often used interchangeably in the media, but in the death care community we've been working hard to shift away from that language. Euthanasia implies someone else is making the decision or administering the medication, whereas maid is a process in which the individual who is already terminally ill takes an active role in their own death to avoid unnecessary suffering. It's not about choosing suicide, but rather choosing a compassionate way to control the end of life. I thought that was really interesting feedback. A lot of people wrote in about we raised the 3am ghost that I have in my house that wakes me up at 3am A lot of people saying I have sleep apnea. John wrote in saying, has David done a sleep study? I'm up at nearly 3am Again, this happened for years after I bought a house in which the prior owner had passed away. We'll call the ghost Roger. The wake up wasn't a groggy I'm sleeping wake up. It's an I'm wide awake. I'm not really I'm more wide awake than I was before I went to sleep wake up. These wake ups eventually disrupted sleep enough to crash my days by 10am Causing insomnia and severe anxiety. Luckily, my primary doctor was not on board with the ghost theory and told me get a sleep study. End of his email. He failed the sleep study so hard they almost woke me up overnight because I stopped breathing 25 plus times an hour. So basically John suggested I get a test for sleep apnea. One thing I would say when I'm not in my house, that is when I've been in Australia and New Zealand over the last two weeks, I've slept like a baby. I'm not waking up at 3am, therefore it is clearly a ghost.

[B]

I did ask you to text me at 3am when you're waking up. I have not gotten a 3am text so I know you've been gone.

[A]

But okay, when I'm back in LA and that ghost wakes me up, I'm going to send you those texts. It's definitely, definitely a ghost. Definitely real, Definitely the only reason I'm being woken up.

[B]

Definitely no other possible explanation.

[A]

Definitely no other possibility at all. Denise, she wrote in about the Shower curtains episode that we rebroadcast. As an Irish person living in Canada, I can relate to Dave so much, and I'm often laughing out loud on my subway ride to work. My favorite episode was the one about eggs. I was surprised during the shower curtain episode that no one wrote in to tell you this. This. In Canada, shower curtains exist with magnets sewn into the bottom hem. The magnets stick to the inside of the bathtub, so there's no gross curtain clinging while you're showering. In fact, there's no movement at all.

[B]

I mean, there you go.

[A]

Canadians have solved the problem.

[B]

We have magnet shower curtains in America, too.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't know that it's a uniquely Canadian thing, but I do appreciate that. I know Christmas and our oversight in it. You don't have a tub, though, so that wouldn't work for you.

[A]

No, that's a problem. But if I could possibly put the magnets along the bottom of the tiles on the inside of the shower, it might work.

[B]

Well. So apparently my parents listened to that episode on the way to Thanksgiving.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Shower curtains and porn. I'm great. I'm really happy they decided to listen to that on their drive. But he. My dad texted me one suggestion for David. Let him know that you can buy shower curtain rods that bow out to give you more space. It may be a simple solution that would help because he's not. Because he's got such a small shower. It may not help that much, but it would be something he could probably do without asking for approval because all you're doing is replacing one shower rod with another.

[A]

He is so sweet. That is the sweetest type of dad email where it's so earnest and so thoughtful. And I could do that if I get a shower curtain that sort of bends out from the shower, it's going to give me more room connect on the outside. It's going to keep that curtain away from me. Thank you so much. Rob's dad. Huge.

[B]

Maybe just solved it.

[A]

Jess wrote in about the mysterious sound episode. She said, I used to work for a company that built cell towers and electrical grids. Our customers were Verizon, att, et cetera. The hidden towers were desired by a lot of different customers. I heard you mention church steeples. We made a cross once, which I love so much. It's so on the nose. It's like, oh, there's a beautiful symbol of our faith. No, just a cell phone tower, mind you. A cross is a cross, isn't it? It doesn't matter what's in the cross. Yeah, it's fine, I suppose.

[B]

I think it still has all the power in it.

[A]

Oh, God. It's good. It's too flat. You have to. You've got to. When you do a joke, you've got to give me something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It'S really good. It's frustratingly well played. Anyway, Jess just said cell phone towers really are everywhere. Wanted to share those specific ones. Chad said we have a cell tower made to look like a tree that you can see from my house. It took my wife two years to realize it wasn't a tree. That gave me a good laugh. Also, it's a little late to talk about Nickelback, which featured in the Creed episode, but please tell Rob that they had one billboard number one six in the top 10 and 19 in the top 100. Hardly a one hit wonder. Rob, thanks. Love the show.

[B]

I don't have much to say about that.

[A]

Mandy just had a really good idea for an episode. She wants us to do an episode about Tyrannosaurus Rex. They're the most. Or just Tyrannosaurs. Maybe not the Rex. It's probably a bunch of different Tyrannosaurs. They're the most iconic dinosaur and they're wholly North American. I think it would be a great example to visit the Dakotas or maybe discuss the finding and sales of sue and subsequently Stan, who I assume are skeletons.

[B]

Sue is the T. Rex at the Field Museum in Chicago.

[A]

Oh, apparently some controversy around those, which I will look into. I love that idea.

[B]

Are you impressed that I knew just by first name what T. Rex she was talking about?

[A]

Yeah, just sue and Stan. There's one more bit I wanted to read out. Oh, just another idea someone thinks we should do. Billboard lawyers. Apparently there are a lot of them in Michigan and I tend to agree with that. Finally, Frog wrote, I assume a screen name, but possibly their real name. Fine, if it is Frog. When I found out that your feed is now an independent feed, I was pleasantly surprised. I re binged all of it from episode one. Thank you for that, Frog. They brought back so many memories. Memories of things I forgot about and memories of when I came to the US and found things I did not understand. Now that I've been here for more than 30 years, most things feel normal to me now. Eggs are always in the fridge, shoes indoors. Drives me nuts. I also remember being very surprised that people loved to sue here. I learned to love watching baseball, actually. And I was so happy that you went and talked to the Giants folks because they are my team and I had no idea Homelander is actually a New Zealander. Thank you. I thought that was really nice.

[B]

Very nice.

[A]

So thank you for listening and learning with us about American Girl, the 18 inch doll that comes in a variety of ethnicities, religious backgrounds, sexualities and other things. As Hayden said, incredibly woke and I still can't decide if I'm a fan or not. I think I'm leaning towards fan, but I might have to go in and have one more meal with my doll to find out for sure.

[B]

I'm not going to go as far as fan. I'm just going to go with it seems relatively harmless.

[A]

Relatively harmless. And in this world, what more could we hope for?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If you have any feedback, as always, flightlessbirdchatmail.com we are on YouTube. Lightless Bird Podcast. We are also wherever you listen to podcasts if you can like and subscribe. It really helps. It puts us up in the algorithm and spreads us around. So if you haven't liked and rated things yet, that's all a wonderful thing you can do for free. That helps. And there are our two Flightless bird T shirts, shipping worldwide at webworm store. They're $25American. They're pretty cool. They're designed by my buddy Charlie, and I think you'll like them. And it's cool people sending in photos of them wearing them all around the world. So thanks for listening and looking forward to doing a live show in Seattle next year. We'll see you there. And hopefully more fun things to announce from there.

[B]

Yeah, and the next two weeks are holidays, so we're not taking time off. We're gonna revisit a couple old docs.

[A]

We're gonna look back at them again and sort of revisit and have some fresh analysis around those things that we enjoyed and audiences seem to enjoy as well.

[B]

Yes. But there'll be new episodes still and we're still here. We like to work. We don't want time off.

[A]

I feel like we like doing this. I feel like consistency in life is good and it's actually quite fun recording same time every week and putting the show out. So thanks for listening, thanks for spreading the word, and we'll see you next week.

[B]

Calvin, do you know what an American Girl doll is?

[A]

Um, no.

[B]

Do you like dolls?

[E]

Well, I don't play with them really.

[A]

But I basically never seen a doll.

[B]

You've never seen a doll?

[A]

I seen it, but not face to face.

[B]

Do you have a problem with dolls?

[A]

No.

[B]

You think you'd like dolls?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Do you want an American Girl doll?

[A]

Mmm, probably not.

[B]

Here, let me show you what they look like. Do you want one of these?

[A]

No. Probably gonna give me nightmares.

[B]

Why do you think it would give you nightmares?

[A]

Because it's like staring at you.

[B]

That's a fair point. I think dolls are a little creepy too.

[A]

Alright.

[B]

Anything else you want to say?

[A]

No, just dolls look really creepy to me, like and Sam.