Jehovah's Witnesses

Summary

Flightless Bird — "Jehovah's Witnesses" (March 10, 2026)

Overview

Journalist David Farrier and co-host Rob dig into the world of Jehovah’s Witnesses, focusing on their American origins, core beliefs, day-to-day practices, and the experiences of those who grew up in and eventually left the religion. Through in-depth interviews with two ex-JWs, Sarah and Jen, they illuminate the appeal of the faith, the challenges and isolation it can create, and what it takes to leave such a tightly-knit, rule-bound community. The tone is characteristically curious, empathetic, and laced with the hosts’ signature wry humor.

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Main Discussion Points

Introduction: From Annoyance to Inquiry

[00:41–04:01]

• David recounts how Jehovah's Witnesses are most familiar to him as persistent door-knockers—something both annoying and fascinating.
• He notes the religion's American roots, founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania, which eventually spread worldwide, now boasting over 9 million members.

Quote:
"Most of my time is spent coming up with excuses to not be stuck at the stoop... Well, recently it occurred to me that there is one place and one place alone to blame... America, the United States invented Jehovah's Witnesses." — David ([03:24])

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Door-Knocking and Social Awkwardness

[01:31–02:31][15:01–16:37]

• Both hosts and guests recall the discomfort and anxiety that door-to-door encounters can provoke.
• Rosabelle and Rob admit to sometimes hiding from door-knockers, and even resorting to buying products/services just to avoid saying no.

Quote:
"It's just so... I can't say no. It's like when people approach you on the street for donating to Oxfam or whatever, it's a little hard to say no, don't you think?" — Rosabelle ([01:37])

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Hosts’ Reflections on Religion and Skepticism

[10:42–13:16]

• David and Rob express awareness of biases against certain “fringe” or less mainstream American religions (e.g. Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Scientology, JWs).
• They discuss why it can feel easier to critique religions less familiar to them, noting particular objection to homophobia and social exclusion in JW teachings.

Quote:
"The thing that makes me... puts my hackles up a little bit about them is... They really don’t like the gays… Their ideas that they spend a lot of energy on seem potentially more damaging to people, more discriminatory." — David ([13:10])

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Interview: Jen’s Story — Growing Up a Jehovah’s Witness

[17:26–19:55]; [28:01–30:49]

• Jen describes how her family converted after JWs came to her grandmother’s door.
• As a child, she was isolated: no holidays, birthday parties, or patriotic events, segregated from classmates at school.
• Her congenital heart defect meant she needed surgery; JWs’ strict opposition to blood transfusions complicated and nearly cost her life.

Quote:
"You don't have holidays, you don't have your birthday, you can't play sports, you can't do anything patriotic. So it’s really isolating as a child… It’s weird." — Jen ([17:59])
"I struggled. I had many heart failures every day... Their thought is it's in the Bible somewhere about eating blood, don't eat blood. And they translate it literally… you will not have blood." — Jen ([28:12])

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Interview: Sarah’s Story — Community Promise, Second-Class Reality

[19:56–25:23]; [31:18–39:49]

• Sarah’s mother joined JWs seeking love and belonging but quickly learned that single-parent or “imperfect” families were viewed as lesser.
• Sarah experienced shaming and exclusion at school, mandated refusal to participate in “worldly” activities like the Pledge of Allegiance or holiday arts and crafts.

Quote:
"They came knocking at the door with promises of mothers and brothers and fathers and sisters in the faith… That’s very, very appealing… What they didn’t tell her was… if you’re not an intact, traditional kind of witness family… you’re treated as a second-class citizen." — Sarah ([22:31]; [23:21])
"I'm the kid who has to sit down during the daily Pledge of Allegiance... You can't pledge the Allegiance... The Witnesses do not believe in politics." — Sarah ([24:22–24:31])

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Unique JW Teachings and Practices

[25:29–27:37]; [34:07–37:28]

• Rigorous meeting schedule (multiple times a week, public speaking obligations for kids).
• Outreach is strictly limited to proselytizing; essentially, all “volunteering” is door-to-door ministry or distributing Watchtower literature.
• JWs prohibit blood transfusions and higher education; their worldview hinges on a pending Armageddon, after which true believers will inherit an earthly paradise.
• Cult-like traits: heavy time commitment, fear-based control, social/familial isolation, denunciation of “worldly” people.

Quote:
"You have meetings three times a week… They limit your education, limit your exposure to outside people. They’re very insular and they really rule you with fear." — Jen ([34:07])
"They would tell wild tales from the pulpit of like a demon entering into a Smurf doll… My mom made me throw away all my smurf stuff… I actually grieved the loss of those things." — Sarah ([36:27])

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Exiting the Faith: Process and Fallout

[31:18–33:40]

• Sarah and Jen both describe growing skepticism and a slow process of withdrawal as teenagers and young adults.
• Leaving is emotionally fraught, risking social/family support. But both found freedom, pride, and broader community after leaving.

Quote:
“I was looking around at everything we were supposed to believe... And in my little eight-year-old brain, I went, this is fucked up. None of this makes any sort of sense... When I knew I could support myself out in the world, I bounced... In the witness faith, if you’re not married by 19 or 20, they start to think something’s wrong... The night I called off my wedding was also the night I decided... fuck this cult. I’m out.” — Sarah ([31:18])

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Life After Jehovah’s Witnesses: Reflection and Healing

[37:42–39:49]

• Both guests emphasize the importance of chosen community and personal growth post-exit.
• Jen donates blood frequently as both a way to help others and “give a big middle finger” to JW dogma.

Quote:
"When you’re a witness, they tell you not to associate with worldly people... Well, guess what? I’ve never been as judged and persecuted... as I was by Jehovah’s Witnesses... Every single thing I’ve gotten to do since leaving has just been gravy and has been so awesome. I’m just like, fuck, yes, I made the right decision." — Sarah ([37:42])

"I donate blood as often as I can. I think I’m up to 3 gallons and it makes me so happy every time I do it. It really does." — Jen ([39:49])

---

Cultural Footnotes, Humor, and Quirky Observations

[41:41–45:27]

• The hosts poke fun at the awkward grammar and spelling of "Jehovah’s Witnesses."
• Lighthearted asides about Smurfs being “evil” per old Christian tales.
• Curiosity over how JWs promise eternal life on Earth with all resurrected loved ones — and logistical quips about overpopulation.

Quote:
"Can you imagine if everyone on this planet who had ever died before came back all of a sudden?... The logistics of the bullshit they believe are so insane you just wouldn’t believe it." — Sarah ([36:17])

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Quick Facts about Jehovah's Witnesses

[44:29–45:49]

• Founded in 1881 by Charles Taze Russell.
• Watchtower Society is the central organizing body.
• As of the prior year, approximately 9.2 million members worldwide.
• Largest US populations: California, Florida, Texas, New York (esp. Brooklyn).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "I learned to try and look as pathetic as possible so they’d take pity on you, not difficult for you..." — Rosabelle, recalling her door-to-door marketing days ([02:31])
• "If you’re a Jehovah’s Witness and you love it, email me... very glad to hear about some amazing community outreach you do..." — David, inviting alternate perspectives ([43:32])
• "I'm just really grateful that I had that experience to make me value and appreciate the people that I have now and… have a good life." — Jen ([39:18])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:41] — Episode introduction: Jehovah's Witnesses and the American context
• [17:26] — Jen’s interview: childhood isolation and faith stories
• [22:22] — Sarah’s interview: community promise and reality
• [28:01] — Medical consequences: Jen’s heart surgery story
• [31:18] — Exiting the faith: Sarah and Jen’s paths out
• [34:07] — Cult-like features and time commitment
• [36:14] — JW worldview: Armageddon, resurrection, and rules
• [39:49] — Jen’s present: giving blood and closure
• [44:29] — Quick facts and American JW hotspots

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Final Reflections & Tone

• The episode is both informative and emotionally resonant, balancing empathy for those inside and outside the religion with irreverent humor and honest skepticism.
• There is a clear focus on understanding the human impact of insular religious communities, without losing sight of individual stories and broader American cultural quirks.

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Useful for listeners new to the topic, this episode offers a compelling, human-centered look at one of America's most globally exported yet misunderstood religions.

Transcript

[A]

Your call has been forwarded to voicemail.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

The person you're trying to reach is not available. Your call has been forwarded to voicemail.

[B]

Straight to voicemail twice.

[C]

Hello?

[B]

What the hell, Rosabelle?

[A]

I don't know why it does.

[C]

It.

[D]

It's.

[A]

It's quite disturbing because I'm always missing your calls nowadays.

[B]

Yeah, it sounds like a likely excuse. Does this happen with anyone else?

[C]

Well, no, to be fair, you're the

[A]

only one who calls me on FaceTime audio, so. No, you are the only one that. You're the only one calling me in this particular way.

[B]

Interesting. All I know is that when I call you, I get forwarded straight to voicemail. Almost as if you're hitting a button that sends me there the second you see my name pop up. Look, today's Flight the Spirit episode is about Jehovah's Witnesses, those funky folk that come around in pairs knocking on your door, which we have in New Zealand, but they were invented, from what I understand, in America.

[A]

Okay, what do I know about Jehovah's Witnesses? They don't celebrate birthdays. And the children do, in fact, go door knocking by themselves, which is, like, quite scary when you think about it.

[B]

Yeah, actually, that's a question. When people. We see a lot of people knocking on our. The door of our house for different things like that be power companies or religions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You would often not go to the door if I feel you hid from people.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's just so too. I can't say no. You know, it's like when people approach you on the street for, like, donating to Oxfam or whatever, it's a little hard to say no, don't you think?

[B]

Oh, incredibly difficult.

[A]

It's just best not to. But I do remember some children came and they wanted to pray for me.

[B]

Did you let them?

[A]

Yeah, because. I don't know. So awkward. And I just. I'm feeling anxious just thinking about it again.

[B]

Did you feel better or worse after the prayer?

[A]

I felt better than if I'd slammed the door in their face. You know, I used to do door to door marketing, so I'm like, very well attuned to the specific kind of rejection you feel on a doorstep.

[B]

What was the percentage of people that would happily talk to you at a door and people that would just say, get out of my face.

[A]

Such a low percentage. It's like maybe one in 10. And I really had to, you know, like I was smoking maybe 16, 17. And so you really had to. Well, I learned to try and look as pathetic as possible. So to take pity on you, not

[B]

difficult for you, it's actually quite a mean thing I said to Roosevelt just then. Apologize for that. I'm David Farrier, New Zealander, accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now, back over in New Zealand, one of the most annoying things that can happen is you hear a knock on the door and there they are, a pair of Jehovah's Witnesses, immaculately dressed, there to convert you to their particular religion, to give witness to the message of Jehovah. I guess Jehovah's Witnesses. That's how it works. To be honest, until now, I've never really stopped to think about it. Most of my time is spent coming up with excuses to not be stuck at the stoop with a pair of people yammering on about the good news. Well, recently it occurred to me that there is one place and one place alone to blame for being interrupted in New Zealand while I watch tv. America, the United States invented Jehovah's Witnesses, rather. An American man called Charles Taze Russell did. Quite a cool name. Charles lived in Pennsylvania, and somehow his breed of Christianity ended up getting really big, to the point where there's now over 9 million members all over the world. It's time to figure out what this religion is all about. So prepare to go knocking door to door, think about Armageddon quite a bit, and of course, the earthly paradise that awaits you if you do things right here on Earth. Because this is the Jehovah's Witnesses episode. Flightless. Flightless.

[C]

Flightless bird. Touchdown in America.

[B]

I'm a flightless bird. Touchdown in America. What's going on? You're up to something.

[E]

No, no, no. Rob's up to something right now.

[B]

Do you call people on FaceTime audio?

[E]

No. That's crazy.

[B]

Well, it's because I'm in another.

[E]

Yeah, I mean, I get. I get the logic, but if you're going to use FaceTime, you might as well use the video at that point.

[B]

Yeah, I don't want to. I don't always want to, like, surprise people with my face. And I feel like sometimes Rosewell doesn't want to, like, show her face. So we go audio only.

[E]

Yeah. And if you're FaceTiming, you got to use video.

[B]

Really?

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

I hate FaceTime. I don't like having to be. Because then you're anchored to your phone. You're suddenly thinking about how you look, where you are. Audio only. I can be doing a variety of things. I can Be naked. I can be indoors, I can be outside, I can be walking.

[E]

Are you often naked while you're at home?

[B]

I'm often naked. People are calling. So audio only just takes the pressure off. Whereas you're saying it's kind of disrespectful almost just to do audio well.

[E]

But again, you calling from different countries changes things a little bit. Because if you just want audio only, just call with your phone.

[B]

Yeah. Which. Yeah.

[E]

Whereas if you're gonna use FaceTime as

[B]

your form of calling, what is your main way of. If you're not calling or texting? Do you have it, like, what apps do you use to communicate with people? Because I'm. I'm WhatsApp and FaceTime messenger on Facebook. Because I'm old, an old man.

[E]

I mean, it's call or text, that's all. I mean, I'll FaceTime some people.

[B]

You're not using WhatsApp signal.

[E]

I have WhatsApp for like preschool groups chat.

[B]

Like, yeah.

[E]

Like for big group chat.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[E]

I've got a couple or like international friends. I've got a few of those on WhatsApp, but that's it.

[B]

Well, all I can say is there's been some kind of update on Facebook. Zach's gotten involved and it go, when I call Rosabelle now straight to voicemail.

[E]

Do you have those friends that are terrible on text but great on DMs on Instagram?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. There is a huge difference between DMing some people on Instagram and a text conversation.

[E]

Yeah, I have. Well, I have some friends that like, will not respond to text for the life of them. Like, they're so bad at texting. Facebook and Instagram, Instagram DMs, like, they respond.

[B]

I wonder why it is. Is it like people are moving away from phone calls because they're too socially traumat? And I wonder if texting is falling into that category now. Whereas Instagram DMs are seen as kind of fun and memes and like wacky and so it's less awful.

[E]

I don't know. Or maybe it's like a volume thing. Like their texts are just so overwhelming. Because I do. I do know those people that have like thousands of unread texts.

[B]

Have you noticed a thing while we're doing phone chat? It was a trend that started for me, I feel like a year ago where some friends really got into leaving voice memos and so you would come and have maybe five one minute voice memos that you then had to listen to.

[E]

Yeah, I don't like Voice memos very well. I don't, I don't mind them.

[B]

I try not to offend a certain friend that's listening.

[E]

There's always no, I'm trying to think. Like there's some people, I don't mind hearing their voice.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

But if I'm texting, I'm doing it because I can't be on the phone and I can't play audio. Like most of the time I'm not in a place where I can play audio out loud.

[B]

Horrific. I think it's fundamentally selfish if you're sending voice memos because it's saying you owe me this time. Like you owe me this five minutes to listen to all this shit.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

I can't be bothered like texting. I'm just going to ramble on as I go about my day to day business and you, you owe me that time to listen. I don't, I don't listen to them anymore. I'm not listening to them.

[E]

There are a few though. Whether they start with like, this is too long to type out, which I will give people grace.

[B]

Yeah. For that slightly.

[E]

Explainers. Or like I had a friend recently, she just had a baby and like it was hard to type. Quick housekeeping. Before we get into this episode, we've got live shows still. Tickets still on sale for you.

[B]

Got a few live shows. Austin.

[E]

No, let's start with, let's start chronologically.

[B]

Can we do them out of order just to keep on their Toes?

[E]

Yeah. Austin, April 2nd, before Austin, we're going to be in Utah and Salt Lake City on March 29th.

[B]

And then post Austin, which is our middle date, we're going to be in April 4th.

[E]

We're going to be in Dallas. Yes.

[B]

Which is also in Texas.

[E]

Also in Texas.

[B]

Yes. They're both in, they're all in quite iconic venues. Incredibly excited to do the shows. And yeah, Tickets are at FlightlessBreadPod.com or in our Instagram page under the show links or in the show notes. In this very episode that you're listening

[E]

to, Austin is showing up more than Salt Lake City in Dallas. So if you live near Dallas or Salt Lake City, don't let, don't let Austin show you up.

[B]

No, you don't want that. Today's episode is about Jehovah's Witnesses, which to be fair, I do not know a lot about. Of all the topics we've done, this is almost the biggest, murkiest area. Just because in my mind, my whole life they've been like the people knocking at the door who I've kind of made an active effort to ignore.

[E]

You got them in New Zealand.

[B]

We do.

[E]

And are they based in the us?

[B]

All us. Yeah. Us. Invented us. Born and bred. Spread to New Zealand, spread out all over the world. And I just thought about this. Now, we both loved a movie called Heretic that was based around some door knocking. Jehovah's Witnesses. Yeah. They sort of. They knocked on doors. Hugh Grant was in the house.

[E]

Topher Grace was the head Jehovah's Witness. The head Witness.

[B]

Things went badly for those particular Jehovah's Witnesses. I found. When I was putting this episode together and typing out the script, just typing Jehovah's Witnesses grammatically was quite difficult for me.

[E]

Believe me. When I had to, I was texting about this topic. No, no. And I was thinking about this. Texting about this topic to our editors and our video guy and you. The amount.

[B]

Like, it's difficult. Right.

[E]

I had to just come up with a nickname for them because I could not spell Jehovah.

[B]

Yeah. I think that's the most difficult thing about this religion. I think the main point against it is how difficult is to spell. Yeah. JWS is what I've gone for. But those apostrophes and what word owns what in the sentence. Very complicated for me.

[E]

And then pluralizing Witnesses.

[B]

Yeah. Wiles.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Do not like that aspect to it at all.

[E]

Talking about Jehovah's Witnesses seems a little tricky. It is a religion. Yes, It's a religion. Not tricky, but just. We want to be careful that we're not offending.

[B]

Oh, yeah. That is an interesting thing with this. No, because in my. You know, I'm sure people who listen to the show know that I'm very skeptical of religion.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

But it is funny where there's different. And we've touched on a few religions and. Cause this is a show about American culture. A lot of them tend to be branches of Christianity because that's what this country is kind of built on. So that's just the way it is. But when you get into things like Seventh Day Adventists and Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, all that stuff, I. There's like almost a graph in my. Like a line in my mind of like, sort of legit religions here. Scientology at the other end. And then I kind of slide the scale between them, and that isn't accurate. That's just what my brain kind of does by default. It's interesting because you're right. I don't want to offend followers of a religion, but Certainly in my mind, certain religions I find myself more easily being tempted to be derogatory towards than others.

[E]

Well, and there's like. It feels like there's some safety in being critical of Christianity for us because

[B]

it's a giant one and we grew

[E]

up in a giant one and we came from it.

[B]

Yep. We've got skin in the game.

[E]

There's like a little bit of COVID I guess.

[B]

Oh, no, I. I completely agree. Like, we have lived experience in that.

[E]

Yeah. And. And it's like a very represented one.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

And then you've got Scientology, like you said, on the other end of the spectrum.

[B]

Yeah. Full on cults.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Not arguable at all.

[E]

Which I don't think we were.

[B]

I think we still weirdly could have been more disrespectful to Scientology.

[E]

I guess it's good that we're not disrespectful and which, I mean. Yeah. If someone's beliefs are someone's beliefs, there's that.

[B]

I also. There's certain. I think what I would say about the little I know about JWS and talking to these former members and doing a tiny bit of reading. The thing that makes me. Puts my heckles up a little bit about them is they are an offshoot of Christianity that tends to be. They really don't like the gays. You know, there's certain things where they're a lot less, you know, within Christianity. You've got some really, like, liberal Christians who are like, very inclusive and good. Jws, from what I can tell, seem a lot more locked down and a lot of the idea. Their ideas that they spend a lot of energy on seem potentially more damaging

[E]

to people, more discriminatory.

[B]

Which is. Yeah. Which is why I instantly tend to get a bit like,

[E]

maybe it's the religions that we're less informed on their beliefs that.

[B]

Yeah. Potentially. In New Zealand, our old neighbors, they were JWs and they seem really nice. Their parents seem really nice.

[E]

I worked with a Jehovah's Witness at a job and I. He was nice, quiet, kept himself a lot. I do remember when we. When I found out he was one, I looked fired him. Like he could. Well, I knew he, like, couldn't have alcohol. I think there was medicine that he was not allowed. He's not allowed to have medicine.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

And he wasn't allowed to really make friends with people at the office outside.

[B]

He told you the religion. I'm taking my goals. It's like, no, you don't want to hang out. It's against my religion.

[E]

But I mean, it checked out for how reserved he was.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

With. And, like, not social. There'd be, like, lunch outings with the whole company and.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[E]

It made me want to be friends with him more.

[B]

Yeah. It's like a challenge almost.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like, this guy needs friends.

[E]

Our friendship will break your religious beliefs, belief system.

[B]

Did you get close? Do you feel you made progress or. Not really.

[E]

No.

[B]

No. I'm sorry. Rob, He.

[E]

I mean, he was our coder to one of our coders. So, like, already is kind of a

[B]

personality being derogatory to coders. No, no, no.

[E]

This is social.

[B]

No friends. Nerds. Wow. We need to talk about how we talk about coders on this podcast because I think we're being pretty offensive.

[E]

I like coders.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

I get along great with coders, even though I think they're a dying breed now.

[B]

Okay, one last question. As far as door knockers in America, does your household have an attitude to people door knocking, whether they are Jehovah's Witnesses or they're selling advertising or anything else? Because Rosabelle would hide in her room.

[E]

I hate it. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

I. I've signed up for things because I don't. Yeah. If I answer, you feel someone that I need to answer the door.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

And then I sign up for a company to spray our house once a

[B]

month for bugs because it's so hard to say no. Right. Yeah.

[E]

Well, they're. They're good at it.

[B]

They're good at it. Yeah. You've got Rosewell's problem. We, like, she can't help being nice as well.

[E]

It's got. It got to the point where I did get a plaque that says no solicitation.

[B]

Has that helped?

[E]

Nope. It's still. It's not. Well, we haven't put it up. We actually don't get a sorry.

[B]

You got the sign, but you haven't put it out. That's why it's not working. We.

[E]

We live on, like, a dead end street, so we don't get a ton of them.

[B]

Do you think you'll. You'll put it up anytime soon or you just going to leave it?

[E]

I don't know where it is.

[B]

If I can find it.

[E]

Am I. It's not the prettiest sign. I got like a metal one. Yeah.

[B]

Like one of the ugliest things you can put.

[E]

No, I got, like, a nice one, but they're only.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

So nice. A sign that says no solicitation can

[B]

look instead of in silver or sort of like. What's this sort of what?

[E]

No, it's like forged in metal, like in brass.

[B]

And where would you put it? On the door or next to the door.

[E]

That's the problem. Yeah, I think you're supposed to screw it, like onto the door.

[B]

I think you should do it.

[E]

It's not very inviting though. And what's the idea? I know.

[B]

You're too nice. You can't. You're so nice you can't even put up the sign you bought to get rid of them.

[E]

Yeah, we had at my parents house just had a sticker that said it. Little sticker on the door.

[B]

Okay, let's learn about JWs.

[E]

Yeah. Knock knock.

[B]

There are a few ways to put together an episode about a particular religion. You can get a religious scholar on to analyze it and break it down. You could talk to a current member of the church to get their take, or maybe a leader. That's what we did with the Seventh Day Adventist episode. We talked to one of the big head honchos. What I wanted to do for this episode though, was to talk to some former members of the religion, people who had grown up as Jehovah's Witnesses, and then for whatever reason, chosen to leave. I figured they'd have some direct personal insight and maybe enough distance from it all to be slightly objective. So I spoke to Sarah and Jen.

[D]

So my name is Jen and I live in York, Pennsylvania, but I work in Hershey, Pennsylvania.

[B]

Jen stepped out of work and is zooming from her car, which is why the line's a bit dicey. Can you smell it in the air around the factory?

[D]

Yes, and it doesn't smell good at all. But the Reese's Peanut Butter cup plan is down the road from my office. And when they roast peanuts, it smells amazing.

[B]

She tells me she started off originally, baptized as a Lutheran when she was a kid. Then the Jehovah's Witnesses came knocking.

[D]

They came proselytizing to my grandmother's door when I was 2. So she converted and then my mom converted with her. And it's very. It's tough because you don't have holidays, you don't have your birthday, you don't have Christmas, you don't have Easter. You can't. You can't play sports, you can't do anything patriotic. And so it's really isolating as a child to not be able to do anything that normal kids do. It's. It's weird.

[B]

Jen says her mum had her when she was just 20 years old, raising her on her own. Jen's dad was out of the picture. Back in 1972, that was a rough time to be a single mom without a lot of support.

[D]

They are giving you what you think you're missing. You know, maybe you feel like an outsider. You don't have a lot of friends. They're going to be there to support you.

[B]

But being a Jehovah's Witness meant things like Bible study, which meant friends and support and help. So Jen can understand why her mum was into it, but she says from early on it made her life a bit weird compared to the other kids I remember.

[D]

You know, in elementary school, if another student had a birthday party, I would have to go sit in the hallway in class. Like I couldn't have cake, I couldn't do anything. I couldn't stand up for the Pledge of Allegiance. I couldn't if I was in chorus. And you know, we would do a show for school. If they sang a patriotic song, they would have to stop the show and wait for me to come down out of the bleachers and sit down. Their reasoning is that you shouldn't be pledging allegiance to anything except for Jehovah God. You shouldn't be putting anything above Him. So if you're pledging the flag, if you were, you know, celebrating your own birthday, then you're saying that you're more important. You're taking that glory

[B]

then this Sarah's

[C]

Story so my name is Sarah. I'm 51 years old. I live in Kansas City. Well, I work in Kansas City, Missouri, but I don't know if you've heard. We're on the state line between Kansas City, Kansas and there's Kansas City, Missouri. So I work on the Missouri side and I live on the Kansas side.

[B]

Also, you're constantly crossing over states.

[C]

Yeah, I'm in two states every day.

[B]

Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word for from our sponsors. Support for Flightless Bird comes from Shopify. Now if you have ever started your own business, you'll probably know that it is incredibly stressful because you have to wear so many different hats. I've sold clothes online in various forms for various things over the years and good God, I wish I'd had Shopify as a partner. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the United States, from household names to brands. Just getting started with Shopify, you can get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you, easily creating email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. Best Yet Shopify is your commerce expert with world class experience in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond all that really complicated stuff. And if you get stuck, well, Shopify is always around to share advice with their award winning 247 support. Tackle all those important tasks in one place. From inventory to payments to analytics and more. No need to save multiple websites or try to figure out out what platform is hosting the tool that you need. Everything's all in the one place making your life way easier and your business operations smoother. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.combird go to shopify.combird that's shopify.combird

[C]

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[B]

Like with Jen's mum, Sarah's mother also became a Jehovah's Witness out of a kind of necessity, a need for community and help.

[C]

My poor mother, God bless her, was raised in a terrible abusive family. Mom, terrible alcoholic dad and in the total five kids, so four siblings. And she was kind of the black sheep of the family. And I was 2 years old. And so the Witnesses came knocking at the door because you know they go door to door preaching, right? And they came knocking at the door with promises of mothers and brothers and fathers and sisters in the faith. And for someone who didn't have that in their family of origin, that's very, very appealing. And so she was all in because she was already kind of a Jesus freak hippie and so she was all in. So from 2 years old she was all in on that. And so that was that.

[B]

Unfortunately, Sarah says things weren't exactly what they said on the tin, but what

[C]

they didn't tell her was that the fine print is that you have to be an intact, traditional kind of witness family where the father is in the faith, the mother is in the faith and all the kids are in the faith or you don't get all that instant family, you're treated as a second class citizen and less than. And when the Witnesses told my dad that he had to stop playing in a band and had to stop smoking pot. He said, deuces, I ain't doing that. So he wasn't a witness and she was. But he was so in love with her and so far up her ass that he never, ever, like, rocked the boat or made waves. When she would drag me off to the meetings three times a week, drag me off door to door multiple times a week. Wouldn't let me go to his mother's house for Christmas Eve celebration, all that. He never put his foot down and said, look it, you chose this. That's fine for you, but she's my daughter, too, and I'm taking her to my mom's house.

[B]

Sarah's experience as a kid growing up in this religion also kind of echoes Jen's, including her experience at school.

[C]

I'm the kid who has to sit down during the daily Pledge of Allegiance because the Witnesses do not believe in politics.

[B]

You can't pledge the Allegiance.

[A]

No.

[C]

They are politically neutral. They don't vote. They don't participate in politics in any way. You cannot stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance. You can't sing the national anthem. None of it. So every single day, I'm the weird kid who sits down during the Pledge of Allegiance. And don't forget, with the last name sleazer,

[B]

you're in trouble. You're in a whole world of trouble.

[C]

So. And then, you know, second grade art class, when it comes Thanksgiving time, everybody else is making, you know, a turkey out of their hand. And I got to do that because it was a turkey and Jehovah made turkeys. But come Christmas time for second grade art class, I could only make a construction paper pine tree because Jehovah made pine trees. But I couldn't have it with any decorations on it because that's Christmas. Christmas, and Christmas is pagan.

[B]

I get her to drill more into what sets Jehovah's Witnesses apart, what she remembers.

[C]

I had to go to church an hour a week every Tuesday night, two hours a week every Thursday night, and two hours a week every Sunday. And then a couple of nights a week after school that we weren't at the church, I was expected to go knocking on doors. So, like the Thursday night program, the first part of it would be there would be a couple of people, and you went in rotation. Whenever your number came up, you had to do this, but you had to give what they called a talk. And so you had to make up a premise and sit on the stage across from a fellow congregant and pretend that this issue has come up and you are trying to preach to somebody who is a non believer about topic A. Huh? And you know, so that I could be the shining star that my mom needed me to be. Boy, my first talk was given at around age 9 or 10 as an introvert. Do you have any idea? I didn't even know what that was. Anxiety.

[B]

Awful, horrific.

[C]

The anxiety that filled me anytime it was my turn for that exercise was so crippling and so horrible, but I could not show it, had to just stuff it down and do as I was told. And then after that, then some dipshit would get up and talk for an hour. Then on Sunday days, some would talk for an hour. And then they would go through the Watchtower study. Because what they're pedaling when they go door to door are these two magazines that they make called the Watchtower and the Awake. And they're like either weekly or monthly. They're just religious garbage, whatever. But they would go and you would study this one article and then they would go over it from the stage and then they would ask questions and the congregants are supposed to answer and then, and, and raise their hand and if they get called on, say the answer. And so once again, you know, I'd get the elbow of like, raise your hand, you know, the answer to this shine for me, type of performative from my mom. And it was horrible. Absolutely horrible.

[B]

Do you think there's anything like, good within Jehovah's Witnesses? Like, are they out there volunteering in the community? Are they very focused?

[C]

No. What they call volunteering is they are saints because they're going to spread the word to people who might not have heard the word.

[B]

So all they do is door knock. That's their community outreach.

[C]

That's what they think is the community outreach. Yes.

[B]

For Jen, growing up as a Jehovah's Witness came with some very specific problems that extended far beyond having to sit out pledging allegiance to the flag every morning at school.

[D]

So I was born with a congenital heart defect called Tetralogy of Fallot, which without surgical intervention, kids usually, they don't live past four. So I was on track seeing cardiologists to have surgery. And then they joined the Jehovah's Witnesses and they have a very strict no blood policy. Their thought is it's in the Bible somewhere about eating blood, don't eat blood. And they translate it, which I think actually has to do with keeping kosher, but they translate it literally and they just, you will not have blood Lip surgery. So I was sort of put on hold because the doctor that I was seeing wouldn't do it. My mom found a doctor in the Bronx in New York, and he did bloodless surgery for Jehovah's Witnesses. So I saw him for years, and I struggled. I had many heart failures every day. I weighed almost nothing. My heart was working so hard. And finally, at the age of nine, he said, she can't wait any longer. But I have new hospital administration, and they won't allow me to do bloodless surgery anymore.

[B]

Listening to all this feels like watching an episode of ER or maybe the pit. Hospital dramas always seem to feature parents from this religion arguing with the doctors trying to save their kid.

[D]

So we found a heart surgeon in Texas, and we ended up going to Texas. And he didn't use blood on anyone, not just Witnesses. When I went to Texas to have my surgery, the pediatric floor I was on was. It was mostly Witnesses. There was a boy from Greece who was a Jehovah's Witness, and they came from Greece because they knew Dr. Cooley would do it without blood. By the time I was nine, I only weighed 44 pounds. I was tiny.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And I would. My lips and my fingernails would turn blue multiple times a day. If I was in the middle of doing anything, I would have to stop what I was doing and rest. It was. It was really dangerous. And so I don't know how I lasted until I was nine. I really don't. It was very clear to me that this was just the way it was. I didn't. I don't know. I didn't think of anything else. I knew I was really afraid. But also, being a Jehovah's Witness, you always have an impending sense of doom because the world's gonna end any day, Right? So it was. It was heavy. It was very stressful. It was very scary. And I was really happy when I was able to get my surgery.

[B]

Jen says other kids weren't so lucky.

[D]

There was a couple that was in our congregation who had twins. The twins came early. One of them needed blood, and the hospital was trying to push the issue. And the father, who was an elder in the congregation, went to court, and they won, and they let the baby die.

[B]

I wondered why and how these women left. Sarah says she was skeptical from the start.

[C]

I was precocious enough and innately born with a bullshit meter. Enough that by about eight years old, I was looking around at everything that we were supposed to believe and what we were learning and all this other stuff and. And in my little wee eight year old brain, I looked around and I went, this is fucked up. None of this makes any sort of sense. What are we doing here? And so from 8 years old until 21 years old, I slowly and surely knitted my safety net, bided my time, played the game just enough, I pretended just long enough to survive. And when I knew that I could support myself out in the world, I bounced the book out of there so fast. In the witness faith, if you reach about 1920 and you're not married yet, they start to think that something's wrong with you or maybe you're gay. And so the clock was kind of ticking for me getting up there, 1920, and there was this guy. And from what I had to pick from within the faith, this guy that I knew was going to be abusive physically or worse was a guy that I dated and got engaged to. And the night that I called off my wedding was also the night that I decided, fuck you, here's your ring back, I never want to see you anymore. And fuck this cult. I'm out.

[D]

Goodbye.

[B]

Jen wasn't quite as hardline, but was still pretty skeptical as a kid.

[D]

I mean, I was still pretty young when I started thinking, you know, this doesn't make sense. So you're telling me that being gay is wrong, but God made everybody perfectly, so he doesn't make mistakes. So that doesn't make any sense. And so just. Or, you know, I was meeting lots of people. You know, my friend's family's Catholic and they're wonderful. So I think that there's really nothing wrong with Catholic people. And my best friend was really the only reason that I stayed going. She was my saving grace if I had to go and hang out with her. And her dad was also an elder and they moved them to California. And, and after she left I just never went back. I was, I think 14. I was sort of beyond the point of my mom forcing me to put on a, you know, knee length dress and go to church.

[B]

When you look at Jehovah's Witnesses and compare it to, you know, say I grew up Christian and that's generally not defined as a cult, even though it has kind of cult like elements. I feel like when people talk about Jehovah's Witnesses, they're more likely to sort of label it occult. Do you have any thoughts on maybe what's different or what is more cult like about Jehovah's Witnesses or if it's just as cult like as, you know, some of the more intense forms of Christianity say.

[D]

I feel like it is more cult like because it's very. We're right. I mean they actually call it when you're a Jehovah's Witness, they call it you're in the truth. So that's what they would say about each other. While they're in the truth or she's in the truth. They really try to take all your time. You have meetings three times a week. You're supposed to be out in field service. And if you can't do field service, you start to lose privileges you may have in a congregation. They limit your education, they limit your exposure to outside people. They're very insular and they really rule you with fear. If you don't do these things, then you're, you're not going to be, you're not going to live forever in a paradise on earth because that's what they believe. They don't necessarily believe in heaven. So I feel like the monopolization of your time and just the constant just, you know, ruling you by fear really is very cult like and you know, also letting your child die. It's also not something that I think Christianity or any normal sane religion.

[C]

The Witnesses do not believe in higher education because they are convinced that Jehovah is going to eventually bring Armageddon and Armageddon is going to kill all of the just unsalvageable, evil people. And then there's going to be a testing period for those that are left. And it's going to last a thousand years. And then if God deems you good enough to have survived the thousand years and you're truly good, then whoever isn't that gets destroyed forever. And who is good during the thousand years gets to live forever and be reunited on this very earth where we sit with every single loved one who has ever died is going to be resurrected, brought back to life and be, be back with them in this paradise.

[B]

Earth sounds pretty good.

[C]

It sounds stupid as it's not possible. Can you imagine if everyone on this planet who had ever died before came back all of a sudden?

[B]

It'd be crowded. It'd be a crowded time.

[C]

I mean the, just the logistics of the bullshit they believe are so insane you just wouldn't believe it. They're obsessed with the devil. They're absolutely obsessed with like the devil and demons and blah blah, blah. And so whatever they deem demonized, you're not supposed to have. I mean they would tell wild tales from the pulpit of like a demon entering into a Smurf doll that a child had brought to church, and the demon inhabiting this smurf doll caused it to get up and dance down the aisle and out the door of the church. And so my mom made me throw away all my smurf stuff. I was absolutely crestfallen because she heard that from the pulpit and she didn't want to tangle with the devil or demons. And so she made me get rid of my smurf stuff. I actually grieved the loss of those things. We were poor, and so those things that I had came at a high price.

[B]

You know, before I wrap up, I wonder what these two women make of the religion now, outside of having to throw away their smurf toys. They're years out of this thing now. They have some perspective, I think, about

[C]

my sliding door self and what she would be doing all the time. And so I ended up falling into a friend group of mostly dudes that were older than me, that taught me everything I know about partying and being out in the real world. And I tried to mask what a naive green bean dum dum I was because I was so, like, shocked that the cool kids wanted to hang out with my dorky ass, you know? And so when you're a witness and they tell you you shouldn't associate with worldly people, that's what they call people that aren't witnesses because the world will chew you up and spit you out. Well, guess what? I have never been as judged and persecuted and treated badly in the world by any of these people as I was by those Jehovah's Witnesses. And that same group of dudes are to this day still in my tribe. We call it the tribe. They're in my tribe of chosen family. I'm thankful that I have kind of worked through the grief of what I missed out on during childhood, and now I can just look back on it, ironically, with a gallows sense of humor. And because of the life that I thought I was going to have to live, which is just under somebody's thumb and impoverished and just miserable, Every single thing I've gotten to do since leaving has just been gravy and has been so awesome. Any place that I've traveled in the world, all of it, I'm just like, fuck, yes, I made the right decision.

[D]

I'm really appreciative of the ability to be open minded and know so many different people and accept them and just realize that the world is. The world can be a scary place, but it's not. Not everything is scary, you know, And I'm just really grateful that I had that experience to make me value and appreciate the people that I have now and the ability to parent kids and, you know, just have a good life.

[B]

Do you give blood now?

[D]

I do. I started doing that in 2022, so I was terrified of needles. I still hate needles. But I thought what is one way that I can really give back and sort of give a big middle finger to the Jehovah's Witness organization? And I donate blood as often as I can. I think I'm up to 3 gallons and it makes me so happy every time I do it. It really does.

[B]

Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Support for Flightless Bird comes from Helix now. We have been talking about Helix almost since this podcast began and that's because they set me up with a Helix mattress. I've loved it ever since. And so I'm more than happy to tell you why it's so good. Because you know what? It's really important to get a good night's sleep. We spend so much of our time sleeping. Why would you want it to be anything else but excellent? I went online, I got matched with a mattress that suited my body type and sleeping type and I've never looked back. Also, tax refund season is the perfect time to invest in a Helix mattress. Hello. And yeah, back to the sleep thing. A study they ran found that 82% of those involved saw an increase in their deep sleep cycle while sleeping on a Helix mattress. I've had mine for about four years now and I've been sleeping great. It's also won awards. It's the most awarded mattress brand tested and reviewed by experts like Forbes and Wired. It's also got free shipping and seamless delivery. It delivers your mattress right to your door. Free shipping within the United States and you can rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. If you don't like it. The Happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk free customer first experience designed to ensure you're completely satisfied with your new mattress. So go to helixsleep.combird for 27% off site wide exclusive for listeners. That's helixsleep.combird for27% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you helixsleep.com bird. All right, jws One thing that I had in common with them that I just realized as I was doing the story, she talked about how Smurfs were evil in her faith. Same in whatever the Christianity I was sort of adjacent to. I definitely remember hearing that Smurfs, pagans, were evil. Did you get this ever?

[E]

No.

[B]

Yeah. No, they were bad.

[E]

Well, they had Gargamel.

[B]

He was scary.

[E]

Yeah, Gargamel was scary. And the cat that he had.

[B]

I think maybe something about the Smurfs. I think maybe they were gay. The Smurfs. Papa Smurf was gay, I think, is what I was told. And that was a bad way. No, it wasn't. But that's what, like, within my religion. That was a part of it is, like, gay. Definitely wasn't part of it. And if it was, who gives a shit?

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

I mean, that mostly just made me feel bad for all of the kids that didn't choose the religion and then had to just be so isolated and.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Like, the idea of an assembly have, like, I just pictured full assembly. One kid having to just, like, walk. Already a hard time being a kid and trying to fit in.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

And then having to walk and leave when there's something.

[B]

Yeah, it's some of those. And it's interesting because, you know, in New Zealand, we're not pledging allegiance to the flag, but those seem like these group activities that are at least meant to kind of bond you as a class.

[E]

Pledged legions. Not really, but an assembly is not really either, but.

[B]

But like.

[E]

But still to. To, like, oh, there goes the one kid that can't be here.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

During this.

[B]

Yeah. Seems rough from what I can tell about it. It's just seems like a sort of extreme version of Christianity where, like, it's very restricted and. Well, yeah. And then arbitrary rules, like no blood transfusions, which leads to people dying, which is, again, in every hospital drama. But hearing it directly from her was this whole other level of it that kind of hit it home for me. If you're a driver's witness and you love it, email me flightless birdchatmail.com, like, very glad to hear about some amazing community outreach you do or something. But from what I've read, I don't know. As far as, like, championing in a religion, it's not the one I'd like. Choose to back. A few quick facts. Oh, all the facts are so boring, to be honest.

[E]

Let's hear. Make them fun. Maybe do them in a fun accent.

[B]

So, 1881, Charles Taze Russell, who I mentioned in my intro, founded Zion's Watchtower Tract Society to organize and print all of JW's beliefs, which we heard about again in that doc. There was a leadership dispute after Russell's death, Joseph Franklin Rutherford retained control of the Watchtower Society. He changed some of the doctrines, which all reading them seem exceedingly boring. It's the trouble with like a lot of these, like niche religions.

[E]

Watchtower Society sounds kind of cool.

[B]

It's not. It sounds cool. Dead boring. And yeah, as of last year, 9.2 million members worldwide. And they get you in by sort of promising you community and eventual avoiding Armageddon, that kind of thing. It was pretty amazing. Like how all the dead sort of come back and you all hang out on Earth for a thousand years, which is long.

[E]

Just the idea that they're going to decide who's pure enough to stay alive. Yes, but if your family of anyone that stayed alive, you'll be resurrected anyways because all of their family, people they knew are coming back.

[B]

No idea.

[E]

So just need one person in your

[B]

family to put in the good work.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you kind of get that bonus. We get that bonus thousand years. Maybe. But then after that, maybe you're like

[E]

destined to hell and you're living forever if someone in your family makes it through that thousand years. Right.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I don't know. It's a good point. I know what you're saying that if that's. That's a great loophole.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe it's the one to join.

[E]

Yeah. I mean, my sister's very good.

[B]

So you're in.

[E]

I'm just gonna. I'm gonna hedge your bets.

[B]

Yes, slightly.

[E]

Are there specific regions of the country that they're more prominent? Because I. I have seen Jehovah's Witness facilities around la. There's one in Highland Park, Calif. Half a million.

[B]

Florida, 300,000. Followed by Texas, New York, New York,

[E]

particularly in Brooklyn, formerly the world headquarters is generally considered to have one of the highest concentrations of Jehovah's Witnesses.

[B]

Okay.

[E]

They do not publish city by city member statistics, but the US has one of the largest populations overall.

[B]

I love that One of the AI results is. Is Selena Gomez a Jehovah's Witness? Answer. No, she's not. Apparently a comment Google thing.

[E]

I think the confusion is Selena. You know the singer Selena?

[B]

No, but happy to learn about her.

[E]

She was a Jehovah's Witness.

[B]

Ah, so people hear Selena before she died. Rest in peace. But people are thinking she is Gomez.

[E]

That's what it seems like.

[B]

Solve that mystery.

[E]

The confusion often stems from the iconic singer Selena, who was raised as a Jehovah's Witness before her untimely death.

[B]

She died when she was just 23.

[E]

Yeah, like a car Accident, right?

[B]

Gunshot wounds.

[E]

Gunshot, yeah. There was a movie. I saw a movie about it. Selena called. Really?

[B]

There's a movie? Seriously? This is all new to me. This is like a massive Wikipedia page. She was huge.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Every. Oh, my God, she's so big. Yeah. Her Wikipedia page is like a hundred pages long. All right, so look, Jehovah's Witnesses. Difficult two words to say and write to me don't seem like the greatest religion to join. That's just me. If you have any great, great inside info. If you're ahead of the JWs, email in flightless [e-mail]. okay. Feedback. As always, a lot of people responding to the format, being on the latest nest session. People love the format.

[E]

They're a good. They're a good one.

[B]

Morgan wrote in, she said, listening to the Mara Wilson episode about child stars and the story of LA trees that fall over at the roots and any gust of wind. I grew up on the east coast and had never seen that until I moved to la. La. I learned this because the root systems of trees in LA are very shallow. Essentially, in most places, the roots go deep to get groundwater sources, but there is no groundwater in la, so there's no reason for the roots to go deep and search for water. The roots stay shallow and it's super easy for them to blow over.

[E]

It's a very timely bit of feedback since Vinny's preschool just had a tree fall over and it is now shut down for a couple days.

[B]

School's off because of a tree.

[E]

School's off for the next couple days. It also seems dangerous.

[B]

It does.

[E]

They had to call in an arborist to come assess how serious it is as it removed this giant tree that fell near one of the classrooms.

[B]

Just a root system that's too shallow.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Whenever there's any storm, if you're driving around, inevitably there'll be a tree on a car or across the road, which.

[E]

Yeah. And it storms like four times a year here, so it's not that often.

[B]

Yeah. Louisiana trees, if you're listening, put those roots deeper. Even if you're not getting water, they'll stop you falling over.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just a practical thing for you. Carly wrote in about the Schizophrenia Simulator episode. I am another indigenous person north of the 49th parallel, though that border means nothing, as white men from abroad drew that line through our communities. I'm a psychologist who specializes in indigenous best practices and mental health. I was glad to hear your conversation about psychosis. That being said, I was itching to write to you the entire time. Indigenous understandings of psychosis acknowledge that the entities, voices, etc are there. Not all of us can perceive them. The problem is not the gift, the problem is society and the system that doesn't understand it or properly support people experiencing it. Thank you Carly for writing in. Elena said, thanks for bringing the guys from the format on one of my all time favorite bands. Great to hear them on one of my all time favorite podcasts. Would love to do a live show in Tampa. Maybe we'll do a Tampa show. Rob, have you been to Tampa? Yeah Elena I love Tampa. My favorite cities.

[E]

Tampa Bay is really hot. The last time I went to Florida was in the middle of July on tour and it was so hot that you would go outside and instantly be sweating. It was very humid, yet toasty. Not my favorite temperature.

[B]

You don't want to be sweaty all the time.

[E]

No, not instantly either.

[B]

But if you want to be sweaty, yeah, Tampa. Tampa would be the place to be met.

[E]

A lot of people I liked on that time in Florida, good people in Tampa, good people in Florida.

[B]

They're all sweating, sweating, pouring the sweat. Shelby I live in Alberta, Canada and I just wanted to share how much I appreciate the Canadian the Indigenous Canadian representation of your episode in Schizophrenia. My sister is a psychologist who specializes in Indigenous mental health health and works with people who have schizophrenia and other conditions. She's done a lot of research on Indigenous wellness and uses a cultural land based approach in working with people. Her and I work closely with an organization that helps Indigenous people who have experienced forced sterilization, which this episode also touched on. Eugenics is a very real part of Canada's history that not a lot of people are aware of. Thank you. Shall be. Okay, two more Stay safe. The world has a funny way of showing up in a week that is a complete American dumpster fire. There's a Shining light in Flightless Bird As I did my gym workout yesterday, I listened to Schizophrenia Simulator. What a guy. I'm a mental health therapist and my first session of the day, within hours of listening to your show, was a client who I hadn't seen in over a year. We were catching up and she told me that her son had been diagnosed with schizophrenia disorder and was struggling with substance use issues. Of course I recognize recommended this episode as a resource to her. She's been looking for resources and ways to connect with her son. Chris is just what she needed. I thought that was pretty cool.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Finally Ian sent in a rebuke. I love rebukes. First off, love the show. It's great hearing topics you pick and your take on the US So he's leading into this rebuke with a bit of kindness in there, which is nice. But also I'm always thinking where's what's going to happen next if people open up with too much of a compliment means something harsh coming, something bad coming. Now, the real reason I'm emailing, please, in all caps, for the love of God, stop referring to San Francisco as San Fran. It's cringeworthy and not something respectable people should say when talking about the great city as San Francisco. Acceptable options are San Francisco, sf, the city or the bay. I say this with the utmost respect. Just looking out for you, dude. Ian, I accept. I understand your criticism. In New Zealand we have a city called Christchurch and it is sometimes people shorten it to church, the Christ Church. So they just go with the Christchurch church Ch and just say church. And that I feel, elicits a rage in people in Christchurch. I mean, it even sounds annoying.

[E]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

San. Yeah. So look, I'm going to respect San Francisco. Yeah.

[E]

You're the one doing this, not me. Right.

[B]

And he knows me.

[E]

Yeah. I don't like calling it that.

[B]

To me it feels like it just slides off the tongue. Yeah.

[E]

You calling St. Louis. St. Louis.

[B]

God, it's hard sometimes. But Ian, I would shoot back and say you signing off that email with just looking out for you, dude. I think calling someone dude, as a New Zealander, that line comes across as being deeply sort of like dude. You know, if you say dude, it's like calling me a piece of.

[E]

No, it is not here.

[B]

So to eat. No, not here. But I'm just saying culturally, in New Zealand where I'm from, saying San Fran is a sign of respect. In the same way that you saying looking out for you dude is a nice thing you thought you were saying to me. Whereas I received that as one of the most saki insults I could imagine hearing. Well, let's get call someone dude.

[E]

Can we get feedback from our New Zealand listeners? Is calling it San Fran a sign

[B]

of respect, like the spread chat?

[E]

So that's why that's what you're saying is that it is. It's New Zealanders say that as a sign of respect.

[B]

They do. Okay, Sam. Fran, we love to take. Can we book a trip from New Zealand to San Fran, please? That's what they would say at the travel office whilst booking a trip to San Fran. And we would never say looking out for you, dude. Oh my God, Ian. So what I'm saying is we've both learned something. I will now call it San Francisco. Ian, you'll never say looking out for you, dude to someone from New Zealand Fair.

[E]

Someone from New Zealand. But what if you talking about the Nickelodeon show Hey, dude.

[B]

Hey, dude. That tonally felt different. It didn't feel like an attack. Okay, just looking out for you, dude. That line specifically.

[E]

Okay, so it's not dude.

[B]

It's the use of dude in the sentence. Just looking out for you, dude. You might as well be saying, I want you to fucking die. You know, it's the similar San Francisco, beautiful city. I respect you. When we did a live show there last year. Love being there. Beautiful crowd, beautiful grounds. Saw my first Waymo. Very exciting. Now they're everywhere. All right, we're gonna go. We're gonna be back next week. FlighttheSpreadchatmail.com. if you have any feedback, please share episodes around on social like and subscribe. Give us a review and a star rating that helps other people find the show, whether they're on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. And live shows coming up in Salt Lake City, Austin, and beautiful Dallas.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

End of March, early April. April.

[B]

We'll see you there and see you next week.