S5 : Ep 33 - The Knight and the Moth by Rachel Gillig

Summary

Flights of Fantasy: "The Knight and the Moth" by Rachel Gillig

Season 5, Episode 33 | October 21, 2025
Hosts: Anna, Kim, Kristina

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Anna and Kim dissect The Knight and the Moth by Rachel Gillig, a gothic-tinged romantasy with rich religious commentary, nuanced world-building, and a cast of complex, haunted characters. Their discussion focuses on the themes of faith, self-identity, romance, trauma, and the nature of power, framed by a blend of signature humor, passion for storytelling, and unfiltered bookish gushing.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. Atmosphere, World-Building, and Rachel Gillig’s Writing

Timestamps: 05:36–07:48

• Anna and Kim praise Gillig’s lush, atmospheric prose, noting its gothic (a la Edgar Allan Poe) and medieval aesthetic (“cathedrals, knights, gargoyles”).
• The Stonewater Kingdom is divided into specialized hamlets: tradesmen (Coulson Fair), scholars (the Sect), fishermen (Fervent Peaks), foresters (Chiming Wood), and weavers (Cliffs of Belladine).
• Each hamlet has a magical artifact (“omen”)—objects with dual-edged powers.
• The springwater's origin remains mysterious—a narrative choice possibly meant to mirror the leaps of faith found in religion.
  • “Maybe it's just supposed to be like religion. It's just faith. We're just supposed to mystically believe in this and it is what it is.” (Anna, 09:14)

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2. The Prologue and the Power of Story

Timestamps: 09:31–12:29

• The hosts highlight the book’s framing device: the act of storytelling as both revelation and deception.
• Featured quote:
  • “To tell a story is in some part to tell a lie, isn’t it?” (Prologue, [10:03])
  • “That final sentence ... I was like, oh, I’m intrigued. Yeah, tell me more.” (Kim, 10:05)
• The refrain of truth-as-lie permeates the book, guiding characters’ grappling with their realities.

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3. Religious Symbolism & the Power Structure of Aisling Cathedral

Timestamps: 13:44–18:33

• The Abbess manipulates both belief and power, using familiar objects and rituals to unite and control the hamlets.
• The hosts draw parallels to real-world religious institutions and discuss the power in being “the one behind the curtain.”
  • “She’s very much like the Wizard of Oz ... she wants to be behind the scenes controlling everything, but she doesn't want to be known.” (Kim, 15:30)
• The act of repeatedly drowning diviners (Sybil and others) echoes baptism and the symbolism of moths (rebirth and metamorphosis).
  • “Every time these diviners die and are brought back, it’s like the caterpillar going into the cocoon and coming out a moth.” (Anna, 16:59)

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4. Disillusionment and Identity Crisis

Timestamps: 17:08–19:33

• Central theme: Characters must confront that “the story you’ve been told was a lie.”
  • “How wonderful, how wretched it must have been, stepping out into the world, learning the story you’d been told was a lie.” (Weaver to Sybil, 17:15)
• The hosts tie this to larger trends in fantasy—how the genre is now often used in academic contexts to explore religion, power, and social norms.

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5. The Diviners – Dehumanization, Trauma, and Agency

Timestamps: 21:11–24:56

• Diviners are stripped of names and given numbers—a direct, disturbing commentary on erasure of personhood (compared to Holocaust tattooing).
• Anna and Kim note the intentional focus on foundlings—no family ties means no outside interference.
• Unexpectedly, diviners defy expectations:
  • “You know what? I was delighted by this. It was so unexpected ... these diviners are having sex and they are smoking pot, and I love this for them.” (Kim, 23:00)
  • The humor and sex-positivity within the diviners’ circle give brief respite from their daily trauma.

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6. Sybil: Faith, Doubt, and Self-Discovery

Timestamps: 25:56–28:48

• Sybil, Diviner #6, is quiet, curious, and deeply shaped by being treated as “a vessel, not a person.”
• Internalization of worth:
  • “My worth was written by the rules I followed. But then the Abbess called me resentful, a martyr, and maybe I am. But didn't I become that way because her love cost as much?” (Sybil, 27:06)
• The hosts discuss how in a duology, Sybil’s journey from devotion to doubt moves at a brisk pace—sometimes almost too quickly.

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7. Rituals and Religious Parallels

Timestamps: 28:55–30:31

• The divining ritual: exchanging blood, immersion, and visionary trances—evoking communion and baptism.
  • “The drinking of the blood is very—a communion ... the wine is meant to symbolize you’re drinking Jesus’s blood.” (Kim, 30:18)

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8. Encounters with the Omens & More Thematic Quotes

Timestamps: 31:10–34:28

• The omens are distinctly uncanny, bordering on sexually predatory, amplifying the book’s themes of corrupted power.
• Sybil’s arc and her journey to agency is highlighted by Rory’s insight:
  • “The Abbess, her care came with conditions. You bent yourself to fit them. And now you see yourself as this terrible burden, like you’re nothing if you’re not the best, the most useful version of yourself.” (Rory to Sybil, 32:53)
• Each character struggles against the roles others have forced upon them.

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9. Self-Identity: Character Arcs in Crisis

Timestamps: 34:31–36:10

• Maude summarizes the universal struggle:
  • “It’s hard to see who I am when I am lost in what’s expected of me.” (Maude, 34:44)
• The hosts break down:
  • Sybil: Faith fracturing, identity beyond duty.
  • Rory: Rejecting disbelief alone, learning what/who to stand for.
  • Benji: Wanting more than a hollow crown.
  • Bartholomew: Loss and legacy—being more than a victim/former human.

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10. Quest Structure & Notable Omens

Timestamps: 36:12–38:08

• Encounters with omens (especially in Fervent Peaks) are unsettling and reveal truths about the fate of the missing diviners.
• Sybil’s strength and “training montage” provide moments of levity but also reinforce her budding agency.
• Bartholomew delivers comic relief, breaking tension:
  • “The knave looks undone.” (Bartholomew, 40:45)

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11. Romance: Sybil & Rory

Timestamps: 44:47–54:54

• Rory’s skepticism and Sybil’s faith create fruitful tension—neither is quite enemies-to-lovers, but they "push and pull" each other into growth.
• Notable apology:
  • “You should not have to bear nor marshal my derision. I was cruel. And whatever you did to spite me after, well, I deserved it ... I’m sorry I was such an ass.” (Rory to Sybil, 46:16)
• Favorite romantic scenes:
  • The hot springs: “I was wondering what it would be like watching you unravel.” (Rory, 49:08)
  • Removing the shroud: “Please, Rory, take it off. I want someone to see me ... I want it to be you.” (Sybil, 51:20)
  • Chiming metaphor in their first love scene: “I was a chime, and he was sounding me again and again and again.” (Sybil, 53:08)
  • “The sound of air rushing out of his mouth was profane.” (53:17)

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12. Benji: The Boy King’s Descent

Timestamps: 55:42–59:10

• Benji’s story is one of powerlessness and a hunger for purpose; the hosts note his increasing petulance and hints at potential villainy.
  • “I am made a prostrate fool to prove how much weaker a king is to a God ... what does it say about them if a king is the one who brings them all down?” (Benji, 57:18)
• Questions of what power, responsibility, and legitimacy mean for someone so young.

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13. The Heart-Sore Weaver and the Climax at Aisling Cathedral

Timestamps: 61:32–74:35

• The discovery that the Abbess is herself an omen—the sixth, the Moth—turns the narrative, linking all magic (and abuse) back to her.
• The weaver’s revelation: Bartholomew is the first diviner, and his fate is the original tragedy that underpins the present crisis (“Little Bartholomew ...” 64:28).
• The defeat of the Abbess is both cathartic and brutal:
  • “With hammer, with chisel, I hit her until she was dust ... until the final omen was dead.” (Anna, 74:35)
• Discussion of shock at Benji’s betrayal and the heartbreak of Bartholomew’s fate.
  • “…he takes it so seriously. It’s my job to protect her.” (Anna, 76:51)

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14. Bartholomew: Humor, Tragedy, and Emotional Anchor

Timestamps: 65:11–71:05

• Bartholomew is a source of levity and piercing insight:
  • “When you do the right thing for the wrong reason, no one praises you. … No one says they need recognition or praise or love, but we all hunger for it. We all want to be special.” (Bartholomew, 70:40)
• His origin as the first diviner and transformation into a gargoyle is devastatingly recounted—robbed of his humanity, agency, and eventually memory.
• His relationship with Sybil and the group is deeply touching and brings emotional resonance to the story.

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15. The Final Confrontation & Ending (Book 1 of Duology)

Timestamps: 71:16–78:51

• The hosts reflect on Benji’s descent and the shattering of the found family—Bartholomew broken, Sybil surrendered, Rory and Maude exiled.
• The chilling final lines:
  • “You've seen this world for what it is ... to be all knowing ... what is a God if not that?” (Benji, 77:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “To tell a story is in some part to tell a lie, isn’t it?” (Prologue, cited 10:03)
• “You are the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen, Sybil Deling.” (Rory, 52:33)
• “I was a chime, and he was sounding me again and again and again.” (Sybil, 53:08)
• “My worth was written by the rules I followed.” (Sybil, 27:14)
• “It’s hard to see who I am when I am lost in what’s expected of me.” (Maude, 34:44)
• “When you do the right thing for the wrong reason, no one praises you. ... We all want to be special.” (Bartholomew, 70:40)
• “With hammer, with chisel, I hit her until she was dust ... until the final omen was dead.” (Anna reading Sybil, 74:35)
• “I’m her squire. We cannot be apart. ... Bartholomew, as they take him away.” (Bartholomew, 76:40)
• “What is a God if not that?” (Benji, 77:20)

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Theories & Predictions for Book Two

Timestamps: 78:51–80:47

• What will Benji do with power? Is he redeemable, or the new villain?
• Will Bartholomew survive? Sybil’s tears might carry healing springwater magic.
• Sybil’s life depends on springwater, now buried—will she become like Bartholomew?
• How will the found family regroup? Will Sybil and Rory reunite?

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Tone & Style

The episode is rich with enthusiasm, emotional investment, and incisive social commentary; Anna and Kim balance playful banter with heartfelt, sometimes raw analysis of character motivations and themes. The vibe is both cozy bookclub and sharp literary salon.

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For First-Time Listeners / Those Who Haven't Read the Book

This episode offers a comprehensive, spoiler-rich journey through The Knight and the Moth, unpacking its religious symbolism, character arcs, and emotional climaxes. It prepares listeners for book two by highlighting unresolved questions and the emotional stakes ahead—making it a valuable listen whether you’re a longtime fan or a curious newcomer.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Anna]

Welcome to Flights of Fantasy, your Romantasy podcast book club. I'm Anna, joined by my book besties Kim and Christina, and together we're diving into the characters, theories, lore and magic behind all your favorite fantasy romance books. Hello listeners. We are so excited to be here discussing the Night and the Moth by Rachel Gillig. Oh my gosh.

[Kim]

Oh my gosh.

[Anna]

We have such a treat ahead for you all. But before we give our official spoiler warning, Kim has some announcements.

[Kim]

I sure do. So if you want even more from us, if you just cannot get enough of your book besties, we have so much good stuff going on over on our Patreon Flies of Fantasy podcast. So for tier one, our book besties get all of our episodes a day. Free. A day free.

[Anna]

A day free.

[Kim]

You get a day.

[Anna]

You get a free day.

[Kim]

Get a free day. We are powerful that be.

[Anna]

We are so powerful.

[Kim]

We're so powerful. We're giving you a free day. God, wouldn't we all like an extra day? That would be lovely. I could definitely use that. Okay, so all of our episodes a day early and ad free. We are also doing a lot more book bestie chats where two or three of us get on and we're just shooting the. We're just giggling, we're chatting, we're venting. It's a fun, fun time as well as we do a lot of like written book reviews, book chats over romance books. We've read lots of fun stuff like that. Tier 2, our book betches for only $10 a month gets all of that plus the full unedited video episode for all of our episodes. And we have our cauldron chat series, our trending pages series, our SJM series. So much incredible stuff over there. This month for instance, on Patreon we have four chapter chats for Night and the Moth. And I had the best time recording those chapter chats for you guys. They are all up right now. We have a cauldron chat from Christina about Helion and the lady of the Autumn Court.

[Anna]

Oh, it's so fun.

[Kim]

Yes. An in person book best teacher with me and Christina and Anna is doing her recent romance reads.

[Anna]

I'm so excited.

[Kim]

So just so much good stuff over there. So if you want even more of us, please head on over to our Patreon. And speaking of Patreon, another benefit of being one of our tier two book is that you get a special shout out in one of our episodes. So in this episode we are going to be shouting out Brandy Mel in and Jack G. Thank you guys so so much for supporting us. Truly, we could not do this without you and we are so grateful to all of you.

[Anna]

Thank you guys so much.

[Kim]

Yes. Okay. And I hit us with that spot. Spoiler warning.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

All right.

[Anna]

Spoiler warning from here on out for the night and the Moth by Rachel Gillig.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Okay everyone, it's a new book.

[Kim]

New book. What does that mean? New world building with Enna.

[Anna]

I love it so much.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Okay, so before we dive into the actual world itself, I just want to touch upon Rachel's writing. Oh gosh, you guys, it's just so much fun to be back in one of her stories. Her writing is so atmospheric. It always paints such a vivid picture. And I think, you know, when we read the Shepherd King duology, we said in our episodes that those books really evoked a gothic romantic Feel, you know, it's very Edgar Allan Poe and spooky.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And we felt like the knight and the moth immediately gave us medieval vibes. Right. We have cathedrals, knights on horseback, we have gargoyles. And even Benji's, you know, pursuit to uphold his grandfather's legacy was kind of giving us a little bit of the Crusades. Mm.

[Kim]

Definitely.

[Anna]

You know, they were going from Hamlet to Hamlet searching for religious artifacts. It was very much getting me into Deanna Jones.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Which I'm a huge fan of those movies.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

So I loved it. It was kind of very nostalgic. I don't know. There was just so much about this book that was really fun. I love when we're on a quest.

[Kim]

Me too. It's so fun.

[Anna]

Yeah. And as we go through this episode, we're obviously going to be reading lots of quotes that I feel like really kind of exemplify her writing. But it's just such a treat and a joy to be back and her world and get lost in it with her stories and her characters.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

So with that being said, let's dive into the world building.

[Kim]

Let's do it.

[Anna]

So we are in the Stonewater Kingdom and it' made up of. I'm not sure if it's five. I'm not sure if the cathedral is considered its own hamlet. There are six omens, but I think it's just five hamlets.

[Kim]

True.

[Anna]

Yes, true. Right. I mean, the cathedral is its own thing.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

But I think of the hamlets as being separate. The other five places that we visit. Yes. So we have Coulson Fair, which is where the merchants resides. You know, that's where we have goods and trades happening. We have. The sect is another hamlet where we have scholars. It's pretty self explanatory. We have the fervent peaks where the fishermen are, the chiming Wood, which is where the foresters lumber. And then the final one is Cliffs of Belladine, which is where the weavers reside.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Now, in each of those five hamlets, we also have five omens, respectfully, one for each hamlet. And they each have their own stone artifact that has power. So in Coulson Faire, we have the artful Brigand. He has a coin. We also have the harried scribe in the sect, which has. He has an ink well. The ardent oarsman has an oar, and he's in the Fervent Peaks, which is where the fishermen are. And then we also have the faithful forester with a chime. And the Heartsore weaver has a loomstone. So each of those stone magical objects has two sides to its magic, kind of has, like, a positive and a negative. Most of the time, the positive is just being able to, like, jump from place to place magically, and then the negative is some sort of ability to destroy something.

[Kim]

Yep.

[Anna]

I think maybe. I mean, it was useful in this book, but I do think in book two, those things might become a little bit more prevalent and maybe there'll be some more uses to them. I don't know.

[Kim]

Yeah, definitely.

[Anna]

But speaking about the magic system, I feel like it's very intertwined with religion. There's probably some commentary there, but the magic, you know, is very much tied to the religion in this book. And I think it could be said for pretty much any fantasy world. Right. That has gods and goddesses, but for some reason, in this world that Rachel has built, it feels a little bit more pointed that these two things are tied together. We actually have an entire religion section that we're going to kind of go through all of that. But I just want to bring that up now.

[Kim]

Yes, definitely.

[Anna]

And obviously the story revolves, like I said, around Benji's crusade.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

To collect all of these magical stone objects. Right. And that by collecting all of them, they also rid the world then of these, quote, false gods, these false omens.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

The only thing that left me a little confused is the spring water. Like, I just. I don't know the origins of it.

[Kim]

Yep, me too. It wasn't super clear on where did it come from? How is it magical? I don't know. It wasn't explained. Why. Why this is here. Why is there no other magical.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Because the objects were made from the spring. Right. Spring water.

[Anna]

Yes. Yeah.

[Kim]

Right. That's how it made the items.

[Anna]

And I think even the omens, because the omens all, they were craftsmen from each of their respective hamlets, and they fought and killed each other.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And then she basically rose them from the dead.

[Kim]

Yes. She did some necromancy.

[Anna]

She did some necromancy and with the spring water.

[Kim]

But it's like. So is there no other magical object beside the spring? Is it just the spring? You know what I mean? Cause it seems like all magic derives in some way from the spring.

[Anna]

Absolutely. And that's. And I don't know if it's just supposed to be fantasy reasons, and we just.

[Kim]

Sure. Okay.

[Anna]

We're rolling with it.

[Kim]

We got it.

[Anna]

That's fine. We don't need exact answers.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

I do hope maybe we'll get. I don't know, maybe we won't. Maybe it's just supposed to be like religion. It's just faith. We're just supposed to.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Mystically believe in this, and it is what it is.

[Kim]

Sure. And we can do that.

[Anna]

We can do that. We can do that. We suspend a lot of belief for a lot less.

[Kim]

Oh, do we ever. This is nothing compared to the things that we have had to just be like, you know what? Fine, we'll accept it and move on.

[Anna]

All right, Kim, can you. You kind of walk us through the prologue, the beginning of this book?

[Kim]

I would love to. You know, guys, if we are sluts, for one thing, it's a good prologue. Absolutely. I mean, truly, we love a good prologue. And this one, while it is short, it absolutely sets the tone for the book. When I read this quote, I was like, oh, I'm locked in. I am locked in. Let's go. This is the quote. You know this story, Bartholomew, though you do not remember it. I'll tell it to you as best I can and promise to be honest in my tail bearing if I'm not. That's hardly my fault. To tell a story is in some part to tell a lie, isn't it?

[Anna]

I love that quote.

[Kim]

Wow. That final sentence, when I read that, I was like, oh, I'm intrigued. Yeah, tell me more. It's so. I know we always say this about Rachel's writing, but there is something so fairy tale. Like, original fairy tale?

[Anna]

Yes, like Grimm's Fairy Tale.

[Kim]

Grimm's Fairy Tales. Like dark. Something dark, something eerie, something a little unsettling. Like when she's like, yes, it's in some part to tell a lie, isn't it? I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh, what do you mean? It's beautiful. It's simple, but it gets the point across. Because we know that all stories over time change and they develop to fit the current climate. I mean, you can take pretty much any religious text and they have all been reinterpreted countless times over the centuries, and people will continue to debate their teachings from now until the end of time.

[Anna]

Right, Exactly.

[Kim]

And we also know that history is written by the victors. So the story that we hear is often clouded by the rose colored glasses of the person who is telling it. Yeah, And I think that's absolutely happening in this situation. I mean, it's not confirmed, but I think we can both agree that this is the Abbess speaking to Bartholomew. Right?

[Anna]

Oh, that's what I interpret it as, because especially at the end of the book, then, when Bartholomew is telling his story and he puts on the Abbess's voice. So, to me, it's the Abbess always kind of taunting him with this story and his creation. And it's so sad.

[Kim]

Yeah, it's awful.

[Anna]

But again, she's, like you said, the victor. She's telling the story. And that last line that you read from the quote, to tell a story in some part is to tell a lie, isn't it? And that's so much of this book.

[Kim]

Yes, it's a lie.

[Anna]

The things that they've all believed in and every character. We're going to go through it a while, but it's just wonderful. She has set the tone.

[Kim]

This quote I want to read, too. She said you learned how to dream and how to drown. I'm sorry, I don't care to go back to this part of the story either, Bartholomew, but I so often wonder, and this is 100% the abbess making Bartholomew relive his trauma and what she did to him. And again, like, putting the blame on him in a way. And we will get to that, of course, when he tells his full story. But it's so disgusting looking back at it, at her forcing him to relive this and telling him this story enough that he can retell it in his own, like, verbatim, over and over again, over and over. It's so incredibly sad. And I hate her so much.

[Anna]

She's awful.

[Kim]

She's the worst.

[Anna]

Honestly, she was barely in this book. She's just talked about, you know, she's in the beginning, she's in the end. And I'm like, I wanted her to suffer more.

[Kim]

She did not suffer enough.

[Anna]

Can we put her in the spring and bring her back?

[Kim]

Yeah, let's do some necromancy on her just to torture her. Okay. If anybody deserves it, it is her.

[Anna]

I think everybody who she has drowned should be. Have to drown her and bring her back. Yes, repeatedly. Over and over and over again, over and over again. That should be her punishment. That should be her hell.

[Kim]

I love that Tenant just repeated. I mean, she did it to the.

[Anna]

Diviners over and over again daily.

[Kim]

Yes. Okay, so we want to kind of set the tone for this episode. We are really going to be focusing on our main characters and the pivotal moments that affect their character ar rather than kind of bringing you through each hamlet one by one and just sort of summarizing those experiences. There is just so much beautiful imagery and incredible themes that Rachel explores in this book, and we really want to take our time exploring those topics and having thoughtful conversations about that. And, of course, obviously, we are going to be swooning over the romance and laughing at the things that Bartholomew says. But where we begin is obviously in Ashling Cathedral. The new king, Benji, begins his tour of the hamlets, taking part in ceremonies unique to each one. The first stop is Aisling Cathedral, where our story opens. And this feels like the perfect time to kind of pause and unpack the very strong religious undertones running through this book. Anna, would you start that conversation?

[Anna]

Yes, absolutely. I kind of want to actually kick it off with a quote that Rory has at the very beginning of the book, and he says it's clever Aisling system. The stone objects the omens are known for are common, their potence vague. The margin for error and misinterpretation is. Is so wide, my horse would die of starvation trying to get from one end to the other. And yet this cathedral, this hallowed ground, is the only place in Traum where people can justify that wasting one's life looking for signs is a life well spent. They pay hard earned coin to do so. Wow, I love this quote. This is. I mean, this is literally on page 35 of the book. Yeah, I feel like Roy really hits the nail on the head here. You know, the Abbess has made religion easy for everyone to digest in this world. Right. She is the master architect. And like Rory said, she's using basic everyday objects that each person from the Hamlets are familiar with. Right, yeah. And it's very, very smart because not only does she create these, like, easily known objects that everyone can identify and see and overly read into every little sign that the spilled ink shows, for example. Right. But also she gives each Hamlet their own omen, their own God.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And so rather than she having to control thousands of people, she only has to control five, the five omens.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

And they are each beholden to her because she controls the spring water that sustains them.

[Kim]

Yes, definitely.

[Anna]

And so it's really smart because she's the power broker and holds the key to their survival, but the omens, each Hamlet just kind of prays to each of their own respective omens. And they all don't really realize that the Abbess is that sixth omen, that she is the moth. Right, right.

[Kim]

I think that's on purpose, I think.

[Anna]

Oh, 100%.

[Kim]

Yeah, definitely. She's very much like the wizard of Oz. Like, she wants to be kind of behind the scenes controlling everything, but she doesn't want to be known because I think being known leads to maybe questions and digging and research, and she doesn't want any of that.

[Anna]

She doesn't want any of that. And so not only does the abyss control the omens, but she also controls. Right. The diviners and the gargoyles. And while we were reading this, Kim, you actually had a really interesting point, which.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Is so kind of obvious now that you say it, but I'm like, how did. Like, as I was reading it.

[Kim]

Right. How did we not get this? So Anna and I were going over the outline. We were just talking about the drowning and everything. And I was like, wait a minute. This is like baptism. The diviners are being baptized by the abbess over and over and over again. If you're not familiar with baptism, it's a ceremony that takes place as a religious ceremony where you are basically committing yourself to the church or the establishment.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

It's meant to symbolize kind of a rebirth. Right. You go under the water, it washes away your old you, and you are reborn, and you commit yourself, you know, to God or whoever it may be.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And it's so fascinating that Rachel did this, that she had these diviners being drowned, baptized over and over and over again to show their commitment to the abyss and the cathedral.

[Anna]

It's fascinating, constantly being reborn. Right?

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And also the symbolism with the moth, because moths are the metamorphosis. Right. They go through a whole change, and every time these diviners die and are brought back, it's like the caterpillar going into the cocoon and coming out a moth.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

I hope that as we continue through the next book that there's a little bit more of this kind of symbolism. I'm curious to see where she takes us on that journey.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

I also want to touch upon, before we move on, this idea of disillusionment, because I think it kind of goes hand in hand with religion.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And I'm going to start with this quote. It's actually at the very end of the book, and the weaver says this line to Sybil, and she says, how wonderful, how wretched it must have been, stepping out into the world, learning the story you'd been told was a lie. Which again, goes back to the prologue quote. To tell a story is, in fact, to tell a lie.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And I think this idea of disillusionment, the weaver says it almost kind of wistfully.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And that's Sybil's entire journey. And each of the characters actually go through their own kind of disillusionment with things that they've held true. Definitely. And obviously, Sybil's is the most, I think, prominent and kind of obvious to us, but it's gonna feed into kind of what Kim is going to lead us through in a little bit on self identity. But I think it's important to the story because it's what each character has to face in their own right throughout the book.

[Kim]

Absolutely.

[Anna]

And I'm really excited to talk about that.

[Kim]

Me too. It's so interesting. Between this and Carissa Broadbent's Crowns of Naxia series with Songbird and Fallen, there's a huge religious undertone in that as well. I find it so fascinating. Fascinating, this concept of playing with different aspects of religion.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

Especially in fantasy books. We've been seeing it quite a lot and I just find it so fascinating and so interesting and it makes for some really, really good conversations. So I'm excited to touch on that.

[Anna]

You know, it's interesting that you bring that up. Just saying that. We see it in so many fantasy books. I can't remember where I read this, but I saw that like actually in some college courses now. Fantasy books, because there's. There's so current and so, you know, everybody's reading them. That professors are utilizing the stories to teach social construct type classes like norms, religion, diversity. You could use dystopian to talk about power, corrupt power and rising up.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Social economic constructs. And they're taking these books because what's a better way to teach someone than through the means of like, what's popular and what's. Yes, again, kind of what the Abbess is doing. It's tangible, it's right there, it's easy to digest and we. And it's fun.

[Kim]

Yes. Right.

[Anna]

It makes it fun and that's what literature is. So yes, of course, it's romantasy and it's fun and it's romance and we're here to escape. But at the same time, what makes a really good book a good book is when there's also commentary on things.

[Kim]

Absolutely.

[Anna]

And I feel like Rachel does a really nice job of doing that, but also it's not so in your face. It's just kind of a. It's a beautiful story. We're here for the story.

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[Kim]

For the story, but it is done so well. So, speaking of the story, let's chat about our diviners. So these diviners have been stripped of their names when they first arrive at Aisling and the Abbess drowns them. And that is metaphorically, symbolically, but also real.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

They are drowned and they forget everything before that point. Who they were, what their names are. They are essentially reborn and given a number. One through six. We know Sybil is number six, and I think this is twofold. Right. Because they obviously cannot have ties to the outside world because then people would come looking for them. So that's why she only chooses foundlings, sick foundlings. Also giving each girl a number rather than a name, it sets them apart. They are no longer a person with agency. They are simply the property of the cathedral and the Abbess. And it is absolutely meant to dehumanize them.

[Anna]

Absolutely. I feel like when we were reading this, not comparing the two situations, obviously one is fictional, but giving them a number immediately made me think of the Holocaust and how in the concentration camps, the prisoners were given tattooed numbers and the Jewish people were given a number, and it was to basically take away their humanity. It was, like you said, to dehumanize them and to set them apart. Right. They were no longer a person with agency. They were just the property of the camps. And that's kind of, to me, that's also what the Abbess is doing, is she's saying, I'm stripping you of all your identity. You are just a number and you are here to do my bidding. You are a vessel.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

It's very interesting.

[Kim]

It's very interesting. It's such an interesting commentary. It's just such a fascinating concept.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

You know, so when I first started reading this, I thought of the diviners as nuns. To me, they seemed like nuns.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And you know what? I'm happy to say that they surprised me. Okay. They are not. These diviners are having sex and they are smoking pot, and I love this for them. Oh, my God.

[Anna]

So this was hilarious to me.

[Kim]

You know what? I was delighted by this. It was so unexpected.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

Because you have this image of them. They have the shrouds on. They're in these robes, and they're in a church, and they have the pews and everything, and it's all so biblical and religious. And then next thing you know, she's like, he didn't tell me he was married. When his head was between my thighs, I was like, yes, girl. Get it. I love it. I love this sex positivity. I love that they are not prudes, that they aren't like, oh, my God, you're having sex. Like, it's clearly very normal to them, to their. They're discussing it in a very normal way. And you know what? I think they deserve to have a few vices, 100%. These poor girls are being drowned every single day and then vomiting their guts out. And I would probably want to escape that nightmare, too. With some vices.

[Anna]

I'd be like, yeah, can I escape and have some man's head between my eyes?

[Kim]

Yes. That's exactly what I would need after.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

What is she like?

[Anna]

They're getting high.

[Kim]

Like, I love it.

[Anna]

I love it.

[Kim]

Yes. I mean, there is zero slut shaming coming from us. Get on with your bad self, ladies. I absolutely love this. And I thought it was just. Just such a fun little twist, because I just thought, oh, they're nuns. And then I was like, oh, no, they're not. I'm loving this. So something else interesting, but not as fun. Not as fun of a fact about the diviners is when Sybil is in the sect Hamlet, she sees all of the foundling homes, okay. She comes upon them, and she realizes that this is where the Abbess is pulling girls from, Right?

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And after she has an encounter with the harried scribe, she kind of starts to ask Bartholomew some questions about the Abbess and the diviners. She starts to become curious. And this is what Bartholomew says. She. The Abbess said that girls bear the pain of drowning better and that sick ones always wake strange, special and new.

[Anna]

Gross.

[Kim]

Gross. Disgusting. But also, how interesting for Rachel to comment on. And I'm just going to say it.

[Anna]

Just say it, Kim.

[Kim]

I think this applies to our world, too. I think that in our world, in our society, in real life, life, women are forced to bear the pain so much better in so many situations than men ever would be.

[Anna]

A hundred percent, Period, period, end of story. It's just a little nod, but it's so true.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

Like, you think about all the shit women have to go through on the daily with our bodies, monthly periods, childbearing.

[Kim]

Childbirth, all of that, and we're just expected to grin and literally grin and bear it.

[Anna]

Grin and bear it.

[Kim]

And men, oh, if men had to give birth, Earth, our society, our world would be such a different place. And I think it's so interesting of Rachel to put this in and to say that girls bear the pain of drowning better. It's like, oh, God, isn't that the truth? Isn't that I love it in a terrible way? It is the truth. I just love these little pieces of commentary that Rachel puts into the stories. It doesn't take you out of it. It's not distracting.

[Anna]

Not at all.

[Kim]

But you can be like, wow. Yeah.

[Anna]

Yeah, that is true. So, speaking of women, let's chat about Sybil.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Our main female character, AKA Number six Diviner. Number six, Yeah. I really loved her as a leading lady.

[Kim]

Me too.

[Anna]

You know, I found her to be this kind of fascinating mix of. She's very quiet, but she's also intense. There's. On the surface, she's reserved and she's dutiful, but there's a restless curiosity to her that she can't quite tamper down. Obviously, throughout the book, she's wrestling with questions of faith and identity and who she actually wants to be, because she has spent her entire life, like we've said, being treated as a vessel and not as a person.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And that's part of what makes her so compelling. I think it's her natural curiosity that ultimately drives her to leave the cathedral and seek answers about her sister diviners that have gone missing.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And I do. I love this quote that she says about herself. She says, but really, I tried to be good, to be a perfect diviner and do everything the abbess told me to. I never complained, never said no. My worth was written by the rules I followed. But then the abbess called me resentful, a martyr, and maybe I am. But didn't I become that way because her love cost as much?

[Kim]

Oh, my God.

[Anna]

I love that. I specifically love the line where she says, my worth was written by the rules I followed.

[Kim]

Wow.

[Anna]

I feel like that line specifically speaks to her character. Right. Because she. We find out she's purposely choosing the short end of the stick when all the diviners draw like her worth is big based on the praise and the love that she accepts from the Abbess. Yep. And I think her character is so interesting because I think it would have been very easy to make her overly pious. But instead, she is devout. She's very devout, especially in the beginning of the book. But she is not super rigid and unflappable. Right. She is actually surprisingly logical and she's not extremely self righteous. She's able to take a step back and she can see the facts in front of her and she's not blinded by the lies that she's believed in. She can look at the facts and kind, kind of go, oh, okay, I can use my brain and understand that these two things are not adding up. Right. And I think normally this type of realization would take multiple books, but it's a duology, so it kind of happens kind of fast.

[Kim]

I was gonna say, I do feel like in a perfect world she would have struggled a little bit more. I feel like she was very quick to kind of question things. I feel like she was very quick to kind of be like, oh, no, I want to go find out more information about that.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Where I feel like in a trilogy or a five book series, she might fight it a little bit longer and kind of push against the brainwashing that has been done to her.

[Anna]

I think we would have had a lot more of back and forth between her and Rory.

[Kim]

Yes, exactly.

[Anna]

We'll get to, you know, we talk about it being a little insta lovey, but it's a duology.

[Kim]

Sure. We understand what's happening here, you know, and it made for a very. There was no lagging, I will say.

[Anna]

And no miscommunication, really.

[Kim]

That's right. And, you know, so, you know, you win some, you lose some. And I'm okay with this one. And I. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that.

[Anna]

So I want to quickly touch upon the divining ritual itself that Sybil has to go through on the daily awful. So essentially there's exchanging of the blood. Right. The person who is being divined for pricks their skin, and then the diviner, in this case specifically, it's Sybil. When Benji comes to be divine for and she has to swallow a little bit of the blood, I was not prepared for that. And for some reason, the way it was written was just kind of like a little icky.

[Kim]

Yeah, it's gross.

[Anna]

And then the Abbess recites a bunch of words and prayers and she names each omen and their magical objects and at the end of the prayers, she pushes the diviner underwater and she says, dream, like, dream, bitch, dream.

[Kim]

God, it's awful.

[Anna]

It's awful. And then the diviner enters this, like, dreamlike state. Right. And the diviner moves through each of the omens and sees each of the magical stone objects, and she has to interpret whether it's a positive or a negative prophet. But just a reminder that we find out at the end that the Abbess is actually pushing her feelings and her own objectives into the dreams, which is very interesting to me.

[Kim]

Yes, I read that and I remember it, but there was so much going on that I didn't stop to think about the fact that. So basically all of this is a lie. It's just the Abbess's own agenda, essentially. Yeah. The whole time.

[Anna]

Which. Another commentary. Right. Religious leaders, like, what is their agenda? What are they pushing and how does it serve them and their greater purpose.

[Kim]

Absolutely. You know what I also. Sorry, thought about really quickly is the drinking of the blood is very. Communion.

[Anna]

Oh, my God.

[Kim]

The wine is meant to symbolize. You're drinking Jesus's blood. The blood of Jesus.

[Anna]

Oh, my gosh.

[Kim]

That's so fascinating.

[Anna]

I love all these little things that she pulls.

[Kim]

I do, too. So good. Wow, that's so interesting. That's so good. I bet that's why.

[Anna]

Absolutely. But that's why kind of just talking about the world building in general, that's what makes this book so easy and fun, is because it is things that we read and we can just understand.

[Kim]

Totally.

[Anna]

And I love that she makes it easy for us to understand.

[Kim]

Absolutely.

[Anna]

So, anyways, after we have the first divining ritual, Sybil eventually tries to escape the cathedral. Right. She goes in search of her sister diviners who have gone missing. We visit the sect, which is the hamlet of scholars and knowledge, and it's here where we encounter our first omen. The harried scribe that Kim has mentioned.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Yeah, he is gross. This was not what I was expecting. I don't know what I was expecting, but it wasn't this. And it's very Rachel, though. It's creepy. It's weird.

[Kim]

Unsettling.

[Anna]

Yes. And so what Benji and the ragtag group are doing is they're challenging each of the omens to their craft. And if they win, they get to take the stone object and that omen dies. And so the craft is that they have to answer questions. It's so creepy. He, like, drinks her blood at one point, he, like, licks her neck.

[Kim]

Yeah. It's disgusting.

[Anna]

It's kind of sexually assaulty. It made me very uncomfortable. Good writing. Like, it was good writing. It made me uncomfortable.

[Kim]

Absolutely, yes.

[Anna]

It's also the first real hint that we get of the missing diviners that they are more than likely dead.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

The harried scribe says to Sybil, strange they sent you to me in this fashion. I've never felt a diviner's pulse before, y'.

[Kim]

All. Yeah, I was like, oh, I don't like that.

[Anna]

I don't like that. But I was still on the. Oh, that's because they're all gargoyles and they're gonna come back to life.

[Kim]

Yes, yes. And I had a theory. Go watch our chapter chats on Patreon. But Anna had a really great theory. I will say that all of the diviners become gargoyles, and they stay at the cathedral and they become these stone gargoyles.

[Anna]

That's what I thought. And I kind of like my Persian better.

[Kim]

You know what? I do too, Anna. I do too. Benny.

[Anna]

Wouldn't it all be dead?

[Kim]

Yeah, exactly.

[Anna]

Okay, so I wanna wrap up with this quote from Rory that he says to Sybil, which I found very interesting and really kind of hit Kim and I in our feels. But he's talking about the abbess, and he says, the abbess, her care came with conditions. You bent yourself to fit them. And now. Now you see yourself as this terrible burden, like you're nothing if you're not the best. The most useful version of yourself.

[Kim]

Ouch. Y' all attacked.

[Anna]

Personally attacked. It very much gives eldest daughter energy. And Rory, our ever observant king, is hitting the nail on the head again. Yeah. And it's just. It's so true, because she doesn't know who she is if she's not this person. And she bends herself to gain that praise and that acceptance from the person that she is. The only person she's known as been like a mother figure to her. And the sad fact of the matter is that Sybil doesn't know what her identity is if it isn't tied to being a diviner.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And that kind of brings us to our next section. Kim.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Talking about self identity as a theme.

[Kim]

So one of the biggest running themes throughout this book is self identity. And like Anna has mentioned, every main character is wrestling with who they and what they believe in. Each of them is grappling with this disillusionment with the crumbling of the structures that they once trusted, and they're trying to kind of define themselves in the aftermath. Maude, our sweet mother figure of the group, has A wonderful quote that we want to share. She says we grow up searching our guardians for what is right and what is true, thinking they have all the answers, like they already understand the signs of life. But they don't. No one does. I see how Benji is desperate to achieve what his grandfather could not. How you are fighting to unstitch all the lies, the habits sewed into you. And while I am a hunter, a killer, like all Bower women, I should have looked harder at myself and less at them. This line. It's hard to see who I am when I am lost in what's expected of me.

[Anna]

I love that line.

[Kim]

That might be my favorite line from the book.

[Anna]

That's so beautiful. It's hard to see who I am when I am lost in what's expected of me. It's getting so confused when you wrap yourself up around everybody else's expectations. Patience. And it says, well, where am I in this? What is it that I want when I'm only breaking myself for others?

[Kim]

Yes, right.

[Anna]

You can't. You can't fill others cup if your cup isn't full.

[Kim]

That's right. It's so good. So let's kind of run through our main characters and the different struggles that they're having when it comes to self identity. So Sybil, obviously hers is very obvious.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

Her journey is about a faith that's unraveling. She begins as someone that is defined by her devotion, but her natural curiosity pushes her right to start questioning everything that she's been taught. We have sweet Rory. And Rory's arc is more about realizing that actually disbelief isn't enough, that he has to decide what he will believe in and what he wants to fight for and who he's going to stand beside. So kind of the opposite of Sybil in a very interesting way.

[Anna]

Yeah, he is.

[Kim]

And then we have Benji as our boy king. And his fight for self identity is about carving out a purpose and trying to be more than just just a figurehead. And then we have sweet Bartholomew.

[Anna]

Oh, Bartholomew, my favorite. Our little humorous gargoyle.

[Kim]

Gargoyle. Boy Bartholomew really carries both humor and tragedy in one. Because he was once a diviner and now he is a gargoyle. And his self identity is really tied to that loss. He has been reshaped by forces beyond his control, yet he still manages somehow to be our story's emotional anchor, reminding everyone and himself that he is more than what was done to him.

[Anna]

I can't wait till we get to Bartholomew's section.

[Kim]

But me too.

[Anna]

His story is so sad. And such a tragedy.

[Kim]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, what's next?

[Anna]

Next up, we have. Okay, so we are going to take a little road trip up to the Fervent peaks. Okay, let's go. We're with Sybil and Rory and Bartholomew, and they're going to confront the ardent oarsmen, one of the omens.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

He has the magical or. And the encounter, as they all are, with the omens, is very disturbing.

[Kim]

Yep.

[Anna]

He, again, there's just another one, physically assaults Sybil. I mean, listen, they are all very attracted to Sybil because she's got the spring water runneth heavy through her veins, and he's licking her neck. He's boasting about. They just are obsessed with. I think it's probably because the pulse point. I'm guessing that's what it is.

[Kim]

Absolutely. Yes. Very vampire of them.

[Anna]

Very, very vampire coded. He's licking her neck, and he's boasting about his, quote, godhood.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And Sybil pushes back, and she calls him out as a fraud. And this quote is incredible. Bravo, Rachel.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Sybil says, you're just a man paid like a king to play act as a God.

[Kim]

Wow.

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[Anna]

I mean, if that isn't true for, like, a lot of things today. But paid like a king to play act as a God, but you're just a man. You're just a little sad man.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Oh, Rachel, I loved that quote so much. And this rattles the oarsmen. He gets kind of pissed off, and then it backfires a little bit, and he's like, I'm not telling you anything about your missing diviners.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And that's when Rory steps in and he challenges the oarsmen to a quote, a match of vigor. And, you know, it's a deadly battle of strength, and, you know, only one person can live at the end.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And the oarsman accepts, and he gives them three days to prepare. But he adds a little twist.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

He says since Sybil is the one who wants answers, she's the one who has to face me in this challenge.

[Kim]

Whoops.

[Anna]

Which is, you know, wonderful, because Sybil can't even wear a pair of boots without complaining.

[Kim]

No. She doesn't even own shoes. So we own shoes. We're behind when it comes to, you know, training.

[Anna]

That was a really funny quote in the beginning of one of the earlier chapters where she's like, I had my toughest battle yet today. And she. She's, like, staring at the boots, like.

[Kim]

Try to put them on. Yeah. I love it. Such a Simple thing.

[Anna]

But I love that Rachel kind of wove that in here as this ridiculous kind of little quirk of her character.

[Kim]

Yes, definitely. It's so funny. I love it.

[Anna]

But we have. So anyways, we have all these fighting montages, and I'm kind of. I'm confused as to how she's supposed to learn to train to fight in.

[Kim]

Three days successfully, but seems like that's not gonna happen.

[Anna]

But, I mean, they do talk about how strong. Strong she is, and I guess maybe that hammer and that chisel for 10 years.

[Kim]

Exactly.

[Anna]

Has made her.

[Kim]

She's been doing some resistance training, I think, with the hammer and the chisel. So she is very strong. It's.

[Anna]

No, she's got some biceps and forearms.

[Kim]

Definitely. Definitely.

[Anna]

I wouldn't necessarily say that translates into, you know, very quick on her feet, sword fighting, but.

[Kim]

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[Anna]

There's this really kind of. I want to pause it. There's this really funny moment when. With Bartholomew the gargoyle, and it's when Vory and Cybil are training and she bests him and he ends up on the ground and she's on top of him, and it's. They're flirting and it's kind of this really strong sexual tension.

[Kim]

Oh, it's hot.

[Anna]

She's leaning into him and it's like they're about to kiss for the first time. Benji and Bartholomew walk in and they cockblock the situation. But the gargoyle says. I say, bartholomew, are you quite well? And Sybil peels herself off of Rory and she says, I'm fine. And she's dusting herself off. And the gargoyle goes. I meant that. That Bartholomew, the gargoyle flipped a stone finger at Rory. The knave looks undone. Like Rory's on his back, like, breathing heavy, like, so aroused.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And Bartholomew is just so funny. He has no shame, and he just says these words that come out of his mouth, and he very much just comments on what he sees without thinking.

[Kim]

Absolutely. It's so funny.

[Anna]

It's so funny. He just adds. He breaks up the tension in such a great way.

[Kim]

I completely agree. He has much needed comedic release.

[Anna]

Yeah. But, Kim, what happens after this? Training.

[Kim]

Okay, so it is day three. Sybil is facing the ardent oarsmen. While they are fighting. He admits that every 10 years, he takes a diviner drinking her dry, because the spring water that all the diviners have been swallowing each time they drown lives forever inside of them. And it's that magical spring water that sustains him and the other omens.

[Anna]

Yep.

[Kim]

So Sybil ends up stabbing the oarsmen, and as he's bleeding out, he reveals that another diviner came to him just a week earlier, and he drained her completely, just as he had has with all the others. And then, unfortunately, he shoves Sybil into the water. And this is a problem because, listeners, if you don't remember, Sybil cannot swim. That seems she can't swim. But Bartholomew says, don't worry, everyone. She's really good at drowning. She's a professional at drowning, so don't you worry. And everyone's like, love this moment, sweetie. Sweetie.

[Anna]

I'm just imagining him sitting on the side of the water, and she falls in. Everyone else is panicking because she can't sit. And he's like, no, no, no. This is.

[Kim]

This is.

[Anna]

She's really good at this part.

[Kim]

This is kind of her thing.

[Anna]

This is her thing. She drops, drowns all the time. She's gonna be fine. She's gonna pop back up.

[Kim]

And everyone's like, well, she is wearing a full set of armor, and she can't swim. So this is a little bit different. It's a little different. It's a running body of water.

[Anna]

It's not a magical spring, Bartholomew. And he's like, no, no, no, no.

[Kim]

Right? She's really good at this. Don't worry, guys. You're all panicking for nothing. I just freaking love her. I love it. But we do have this really sweet moment where, like, she's kind of fading out of consciousness, and Rory is saying, wake up, sweetheart. Wake up. The sweetheart. The sweetheart got. I was like, I love this.

[Anna]

I died. I remember. I was ahead of you. We just finished recording a chapter Chat. And I texted you because I had gone and read the next chapter. And I was like, kim, read the first page.

[Kim]

Read quickly.

[Anna]

Oh, God, the sweetheart gets me.

[Kim]

Sweetheart. Oh, it's so precious. I love it. So Sybil does wake up after a few days. She goes to find Rory in the woods, and she kind of has this moment where she realizes that she's done pretending that the diviners are all alive. She knows they're dead, and she is basically like, I want to be burn shit to the ground. Like, I'm going to dismantle everything.

[Anna]

Let's go.

[Kim]

Let's do this. Because my beloved diviners are dead. Everything I've ever known is a lie. So let's go. And she also finally tells Rory her real name. I know.

[Anna]

I love that.

[Kim]

Which is, of course, Sybil.

[LHH Advertiser]

I love that.

[Kim]

And it's such a huge moment for them, you know, kind of bonding and coming together.

[Anna]

I know. And I'm surprised because you, up until that point, you have these flashbacks of her and her name, but you're not quite sure if she actually remembers it or if Rachel's just giving us, the reader, a little insight. And so I kind of love that she does share this with him. And thankfully, she didn't get to actually the gargoyles point where he doesn't even remember that Bartholomew is his name.

[Kim]

Yes. Oh, it's so sad.

[Anna]

So, okay, I wanna kind of pause here, and let's talk about Rory for a minute. Okay. I feel like he is very much, in a lot of ways, Sybil's mirror opposite in the best way. You know, she starts off clinging to faith and that belief system that slowly starts to unravel. And whereas Rory enters the book very much a skeptic. Right.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

He doesn't buy into the visions or the omens, and he's very outspoken about it, but at the same time, he's very steadfast. He's very loyal. You know, he's the kind of knight who is defined less by the tradition, but more by his own moral code and honor. And he's blunt, but underneath all of this kind of hardness and this skeptic man, he's really shaped by his loss and his own disillusionment with everything from the way that he's been raised. And what makes him so interesting next to Sybil, is that while she is learning to let go of blind faith, Rory, on the other hand, is learning what it means to kind of finally believe in something, or rather someone, which is Sybil.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And I think it's Interesting because he was a foundling boy and he was raised by the artful brigand. Maude and Benji hint that his upbringing was harsh, that he was probably abused. And I think, though, what's really interesting is that Rory's pushback to civil and her belief system is actually, I feel like what draws them together the most. And we kind of touched upon this, that I think it probably would have created more friction for a longer period of time. But again, he was raised by an abusive omen and he's going to be suspicious of the very belief system that Sybil represents.

[Kim]

Absolutely.

[Anna]

And that's kind of what draws them together. It's not really an enemies to lovers, but there's a push and a pull there, which is very intriguing. And that's kind of what makes them interesting to read as a couple.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And I love, love this quote because he's. I wouldn't say he's mean to her, but he is very harsh sometimes in the beginning because of how he was raised. Right. So it makes sense.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

But he has this quote later to Sybil. He says, I wanted to get under your skin. I saw you on the wall that first day at Aisling, all in white, looking down your nose at me. So patronizing and pious. I wanted, I don't know, to sully you, maybe to rip the shroud from your eyes. So you know what? I knew that nothing is holding holy, that the omens were a lie, that you were no better than me. But I regretted it. You should not have to bear nor marshal my derision. I was cruel. And whatever you did to spite me after, well, I deserved it. He gave me his eyes over his shoulder once more. I'm sorry I was such an ass.

[Kim]

Wow.

[Anna]

Kim, what do we love?

[Kim]

We love an apology, Anna. We love a king.

[Anna]

We love a self aware king.

[Kim]

Was that hard?

[Anna]

No.

[Kim]

No.

[Anna]

We love an apology.

[Kim]

I love you should not have to bear nor marshal my derision.

[Anna]

That's not your job.

[Kim]

Wow.

[Anna]

Your job is not to coddle me and my feelings and my own shit.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

I can take that on. I should not have put that upon you.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

That is so fucking self aware.

[Kim]

So self aware. So incredible. I love taking accountability for your own actions and your own emotions. These are adults. Yes. Okay. Other characters in other series that don't apologize. Okay. No one else is responsible for you and your feelings and your emotions and your behaviors and how you react to things. That's your responsibility.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Don't put that on somebody else.

[Anna]

I mean, he says, like, I just. I didn't want you to look down on me. I didn't want you to think you were better than me. And. And there was probably a part of her that did.

[Kim]

I think so 100%.

[Anna]

I mean, we were. We're in her POV, and she feels, you know, she's a diviner, and that's part of her journey. Right. Is to, like, realize that I am no better than.

[Kim]

Right. But she raised to think otherwise, so it's not necessarily her fault.

[Anna]

Right. Like you said, she's given a number. They're raised to be other than.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Their humanity is stripped of them.

[Kim]

Absolutely.

[Anna]

But I love this moment that they have together because I think it's a real turning point in their relationship.

[Kim]

Oh, absolutely.

[Anna]

And she looks at him and she realizes, okay, I can understand where you're coming from.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And I can work with this.

[Kim]

I can work with this because it's a real moment of vulnerability from him, and she has. Hasn't seen that before. And I think she needed him to kind of break his walls down a little bit and let her in a tiny bit so they could move forward from this.

[Anna]

Yeah. All right, Kim, speaking of, since we're on Rory, let's. Can we go through some of our favorite romance moments?

[Kim]

I would love nothing more. Oh, my gosh. There were some very sweet moments between our little lovebirds that we're going to talk about. The first one is the hot springs in the Fervent peaks. Oh. This, I would say, is kind of where Sybil and Rory's relationship has the most rapid growth.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

This is where they're on the stakeout together and they start kind of opening up to each other about their dating lives, essentially. And Sybil admits that she has never experienced the little death at the hands of someone else, which I had never heard that phrase before, but Anna had because it's French.

[Anna]

That's what they call an orgasm. Is the little death amazing? You just die a little? Because it's so amazing, but it takes your breath away.

[Kim]

Right. How chic is that, by the way?

[Anna]

That's so chic.

[Kim]

I love it.

[Anna]

I've always loved that.

[Kim]

Oh, wow. I'm obsessed with that. And I love that Rory is like, wait, yeah, hold on. You've never finished. Like, we must. We need to rectify this.

[Anna]

Hold on.

[Kim]

Yeah, but he's staring at her, and she gets very self conscious about it. And he says this. Oh, this quote. Rory's voice was gravel. I was wondering what it would be like watching you unravel. Sir.

[Anna]

Sir.

[Kim]

Okay, let's do it.

[Anna]

All right, well, let's test it.

[Kim]

They have this very sweet, playful moment. They're in the hot springs, and they're kind of tickling each other, and he accidentally kind of grabs her foot and pulls her under the water. And he forgets that she can't swim. Or maybe he doesn't know.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And so they kind of have this moment where she kind of starts to drown. And he scoops her up, and she's like, yeah, I can't swim. And he's like, I'm so sorry. He is so precious.

[Anna]

So cute.

[Kim]

And he says, I don't know how to behave around you. You make me so fucking nervous. And she's so sweet. She's like, it's okay. Yeah, it was just an accident. And he just mouthed. He's like, I'm so sorry. Oh, my God, I love that moment.

[Anna]

I don't know how to act around you.

[Kim]

Act around you.

[Anna]

So innocent.

[Kim]

It's so. Like first love. Like we're teenagers and we're just. Everything's so heightened, but still so innocent and sweet. He says your hair is pretty like moonlight. And your skin is so soft. But beneath, he needed my muscles. If I were to bite down, I'd break my teeth on you. If you were to bite down, your bottom teeth would leave a crooked mark, unique as your fingerprint. That's what I thought when we first spoke at a outside the diviner's cottage. You smiled.

[Anna]

Mm.

[Kim]

He resumed his ministrations. Shall we see? Then I wondered if he could feel my pulse drumming through the water. Where would you bite me? Night? Wherever you told me to, Diviner. She gives him her hand. Rory held my gaze and slipped his teeth over the flesh below. My thumb, pressed down, my lips, parted. His bite was the same as his touch, exacting but gentle. A low, determined pressure. Then his teeth were gone. Rory shut his eyes, sighed into my palm, replaced his teeth with his lips. Rory kissed the place he'd bitten with arduous slowness. I'd rather this left a mark instead, he murmured into my skin.

[Anna]

It's just so sweet.

[Kim]

That is precious.

[Anna]

I love it. I'd rather this left a mark instead. And we love a little gentle kiss, like on the wrist or.

[Kim]

Oh, yes, the forehead or the nose or. They're. They're so tender together. It's so incredibly beautiful. This, though, that Anna's gonna talk about. This is probably one of my top favorite moments of this.

[Anna]

I love this moment. The removing of the shroud.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

It's the evening after Sybil has been Knighted by Benji. And she goes to Rory's room, and she's asking him to help her remove her armor because it's so heavy, it's.

[Kim]

So hard, and I can't do it.

[Anna]

So she's in her underclothes, and she asks him to remove everything. And he's confused at first, but then he realizes she also means the shroud over her eyes. And she says, please, Rory, take it off. I want someone to see me, I whispered against his lips. I want it to be you. Rory's touch was slow, gentle. He slid his pointer finger under my shroud, grazing my cheekbones, the delicate line of my lower lashes. We both let out a shaking breath. His inhale was shaking, sharp. For an excruciating moment, I couldn't read his face, couldn't decipher his eyes. What? She says. And he says, I just. His breath came faster. I don't think I have the words. And she says, am I so unsightly?

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[Anna]

And his thumb found my chin, lifted it. There was wonder in his gaze I'd never glimpsed before, as if seeing my eyes for the first time had profoundly altered his. He said it intently, like he was imploring every part of me to take keyed. You are the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. Sipple deling.

[Kim]

Oh, my God.

[Anna]

Like he's imploring her. To hear him say this.

[Kim]

As if seeing my eyes for the first time had profoundly altered his. What? Rachel. Rachel. Wow. It's so beautiful.

[Anna]

And then they. They start kissing. And she says Rory liked kissing. Or maybe he disliked kissing me because he can't stop kissing. Kissing her like he can't move on from it.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And then they start. Things get hot and heavy. And he says, calling back to what Kim talked about, he says, first you unravel.

[Kim]

Yes, Rory, we love it.

[Anna]

Consider it king.

[Kim]

That's right.

[Anna]

I love this line, though. When they actually start to have sex. She says, I was a chime, and he was sounding me again and again and again. Wow. Like, talk about writing a sex scene, but somehow writing that line for us to realize what's happening in the moment. Also, Kim, you said this when we were going through the outline, but it reminded you of.

[Kim]

So again, again, again. It's a callback to the cathedrals and the bells that chime. Yes, I was a chime. And he was sounding me again, again and again.

[Anna]

I mean, I love it.

[Kim]

Wow.

[Anna]

And when you hear. I'll never forget when I was in Paris a few months ago, walking and I heard Notre Dame's noon bells go off and. And it's like a cacophony. You can hear them across the city. And it's just all these bells going off. And that's what I envision with this line is like, it's just an overwhelming sense of sound and movement and joy. And she's so brilliant. And this line also is one of my favorites. Listen to how she uses the word profane in the sentence Rachel writes. His entire body flexed. The sound of air rushing out of his mouth was profane.

[Kim]

Profane.

[Anna]

I mean, profane is something that is, like, base, that is ungodly and irreverent. And the fact that she uses. Rather than saying he moaned or he groaned, it's the breath leaving his mouth was profane. Yeah, like the sound of air. That is so. It's very vivid.

[Kim]

Yes, very vivid. It's incredible.

[Anna]

Like, I can see him. I could see it. I love it.

[Kim]

I could see it.

[Anna]

And I. And she writes these spicy scenes. They're so incredibly sexy, but they're also very tender, and there's so much emotion in them. And I feel like Rachel, really, all of her spicy scenes are very purposeful. It's not sex for sex sake.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And I love the way she writes these.

[Kim]

Agreed.

[Anna]

So, anyways, the morning after, when Cybil wakes up, she sees herself. She finally works up the courage to look in the mirror, and she sees her eyes and their stone.

[Kim]

And I was right.

[Anna]

We suspect you did, too, which we both suspected. And she is repulsed. And she thinks that Rory, who doesn't happen to be in the room with her when she wakes up, that he was also repulsed and that the whole night was like a lie. But that's not the case at all. He had just left to get their breakfast and sustenance because he's a considerate king.

[Kim]

He is.

[Anna]

And he tells her. He comes back and tells her repeatedly that she's the most beautiful and fearsome creature and that he regrets nothing, and it's just absolutely beautiful. And I just love them together.

[Kim]

And.

[Anna]

And I'm so anxious about the next book to see where it goes.

[Kim]

Me, too.

[Anna]

But let's move on from here. Kim, can you talk about Benji for a minute?

[Kim]

Yes. So Benji is a very interesting character. So Benji, our boy king, he is a figurehead in a world where real power obviously lies with the Abbess and the omens. And I think that leaves him constantly wrestling with his purpose, what it actually means to wear the crown when his voice doesn't carry the weight that it should. His grandfather, Father was Obviously branded a failure and a heretic for speaking out against the omens. And Benji is trying to walk that same path, but he's. He wants to be smarter and more careful about it. And yet beneath the crowd he is still just a 17 year old boy. He's caught between the expectations of a king and the reality of being a teenager, carrying far more responsibility than any teenager ever should.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And this is when him and Cybil are speaking and he's kind of telling her the story of his grandparents grandfather. He says of course it's not. Benji's cheeks reddened, his voice hardening. I'm the king and it's never about me. I'm not respected like a craftsman or a knight or a diviner. My first public act is to go into the hamlets and be utterly humiliated by the nobility in the names of the omens. I know that I'm young and that my grandfather was a heretic, but the treatment of sovereigns goes far beyond that. It's as if my position has only ever existed to be a foil to Aisling. I am made a prostrate fool to prove how much weaker a king is to a God. The silence in the room was heavy. Rory went to stand in front of Benji. When he slouched, as he often did, Roy and the king stood exactly equal, eye to eye. Perhaps that's the system's fatal flaw. If Aisling and the omens have only ever painted a king as inconsequential, what does it say about them if a king is the one who brings them all down?

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Benji's face twisted as he held back teeth years. So you're really seeing here, I think that despite his youth, there's an intelligence and also an edge.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

To me, Benji seems like he has a chip on his shoulder. It seems like he has something to prove.

[Anna]

Oh, I agree.

[Kim]

He wants to almost avenge his grandfather. 100 and that is his guiding light throughout all of this is like I'm gonna prove them wrong. I'm gonna show them that they do need me and they do need a bow to me.

[Anna]

I think he really does have a chip on his shoulder. He's very much, much like I'm just here to be made a mockery of because the Abbess is the one with all the power. And my whole thing, reading this whole book is if he is taking all of these objects, who is going to have the power? Then you're taking power from one person and giving it to another person. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Kim]

Absolutely.

[Anna]

And he's 17 yeah. Yes. He's, you know, not a child. But that much power in the hands of one person whose frontal lobe isn't fully developed.

[Kim]

No, I was about to say, say frontal lobe is not developed. That's terrifying.

[Anna]

That's terrifying.

[Kim]

Don't love that.

[Anna]

And I think I didn't see him being the bad guy at the end of the book until about this point, you know, and where he goes to Knight Sybil and he kind of just starts to make these demands, and it's very petulant and it's very. He's almost throwing a temper tantrum about it.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Like, it's about me and that she's my knight and, you know, she has to do what my desires and my wishes. And it's very. It was. I remember reading it for the first time. Time and being like, whoa, where is this coming from, Benji?

[Kim]

Yeah, agreed. This felt very petulant, very childlike, very. Like you said, temper tantrum. Yeah. And this was the first time that I was kind of like. And it was the first time that Rory kind of pushed back against Benji and stood by Sybil. And you could tell Benji did not like that.

[Anna]

Benji didn't like that because he already struggles with this idea that what is my purpose.

[Kim]

Yep.

[Anna]

Who is going to be loyal to me? And to see somebody push back against him, which is what a good leadership should have. Right. Some. They should have people who question them.

[Kim]

Yep.

[Anna]

He doesn't like it because he is a little boy king at the end of the day.

[Kim]

Well. And he's like, rory's my friend. Yeah. He's my knight.

[Anna]

Yeah. He's very. It's, again, it's very childlike. It's my toys. You can't touch my things.

[Kim]

Yep.

[Anna]

But that leads us into the final part of this book where we go to the cliffs of Belladine.

[Kim]

Yes. So the cliffs of Belladine hold. So they think the Weaver's loomstone. And I would say that this is definitely the most surprising Hamlet.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

The ceremony is very benign and actually kind of tender. Benji's not really humiliated like he is in all the other hamlets. The biggest thing that hap. Well, before we get to the big, big thing.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

But something interesting that happens is that Benji meets with knights who are not Maude and Rory. And this. Would it be weird if Benji didn't make it freaking weird. Okay. It's so awkward. It definitely puts you on edge.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Sybil is going to meet with Rory and she runs into Benji meeting with the knights, and they're like, talking shit. About Rory.

[Anna]

Yeah, it's weird.

[Kim]

I'm like, I don't like that.

[Anna]

No, especially when you come off of the conversation that we just had where he calls out Rory and basically questions his loyalty.

[Kim]

Yes, exactly. And Benji is kind of trying to isolate Sybil, and he's kind of trying to manipulate her into going against Rory. And they're talking down on Rory because he's a foundling child and he was a thief for so many years. And Sybil's basically like, no. Yeah, absolutely not. We're not gonna. I'm not gonna stand for that. Thank God she stands up for him. And I love that she does that. I love.

[Anna]

I do too.

[Kim]

She's like, no, shut up. You're stupid.

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[Kim]

Oh, you smell amazing, James.

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[Kim]

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[Kim]

Okay, so we're gonna kind of run through just to summarize what happens here and get to a heartbreaking, heartbreaking reveal. So Rory, Sybil, and Bartholomew go looking for the heart sore weaver. Bartholomew says he knows the way and it's down this hole that leads to underground tunnels.

[Anna]

Nope.

[Kim]

No spelunking.

[Anna]

We do not spelunk.

[Kim]

We are not here for the spelunking. I'm not going down that small hole that I don't know where it leads to. This was a little claustrophobic for me, but it's fine. Fast forwarding. Rory loses his magic coin in a sea of other gold coins and has to search for it, which I find that to be a lost cause. Best of luck to you, Rory. Yes, and Sybil follows a different route and ends up in a chamber with the heart sword weaver. And it is obvious almost immediately that she is different from all of the other omens. Because she is completely stone. She is full gargoyle. And this is when we learn the Abbess is in fact, an omen herself. The sixth one. And the loomstone is actually in her possession at Ashland Cathedral. The heart sore weaver says that the Abbess started starving her and the omens of spring water. First it was bottled up, but then she started delivering each omen a dead diviner, once every 10 years. And the Abbess actually says this at the end. Starving things make for loyal people, pets. So long as you feed them just enough.

[Anna]

Wow.

[Kim]

Disgusting. But the weaver didn't want to be an omen anymore, but the Abbess essentially laughed in her face and called her ungrateful. So the weaver starved herself and refused to drain the diviners, and instead she lets the salt air take them. And she tells Sybil it's the best burial I can offer them.

[Anna]

I kind of was sad to see her go. I mean, she needs. I'm glad that she got put to rest.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

That's what she wanted.

[Kim]

Exactly.

[Anna]

I liked her.

[Kim]

I did, too.

[Anna]

Kind of wanted her to stick around a little bit.

[Kim]

I know. I was like, no, you're a good one. Like, help you.

[Anna]

You're like Bartholomew.

[Kim]

She was, but I think she was tired. I think she really wanted to go.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

So Sybil ends up killing her, essentially at her request. She's like, I want you to end this. Like, please.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

But the weaver has some very interesting parting words. She says, to be a gargoyle is a very strange thing. The ones upon the tour do not tell the stories of who they are. Indeed, they hardly speak, I think, because they do not remember what it is to be human. Or maybe they are too afraid to disobey their master. But not that first one. He was a most peculiar boy. What was his name? The first gargoyle she made. I saw him not two days ago upon my cliff. Came to see him last night, but you frightened me away. What was his name? And then at this moment, Rory and the gargoyle are running in the tunnels looking for Sybil. And so Bartholomew yells out, bartholomew, the heart sword. Weaver's breath went out. That's it. The foundling upon the tor. The first diviner. Her last words. Quiet as a prayer. Prayer. Little Bartholomew.

[Anna]

Little Bartholomew. Oh, guys, I got chills again with you reading that.

[Kim]

I'm gonna tear up. This is so sad.

[Anna]

It's just so sad. She's lying there.

[Kim]

Oh, God.

[Anna]

And you realize she's like, I saw him before and I came to see him again. And then you just hear Bartholomew's Voice.

[Kim]

Bartholomew, she says, that's it.

[Anna]

That's it.

[Kim]

The first diviner, little Bartholomew.

[Anna]

Bartholomew.

[Kim]

Oh, beautiful.

[Anna]

I swear there were parts of the Shepherd King duology that had Kim and I in tears.

[Kim]

Oh.

[Anna]

And I am very anxious about book two.

[Kim]

Agreed.

[Anna]

I am very anxious.

[Kim]

There is a scene from Two Twisted Crowns that I can't even think about without crying. I can read the line and just immediately start.

[Anna]

Just immediately sob.

[Kim]

No.

[Anna]

Like, we couldn't make it through the outline. We couldn't make it through recording.

[Kim]

I cried when I was editing it.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

And then we had it but a book awards. And I. We all cried then. Me reading it like it would not stop.

[Anna]

It's so good.

[Kim]

But then, like, Bartholomew is even more precious to us because he is very childlike.

[Anna]

Yes. Okay, so let's talk about Bartholomew.

[Kim]

Let's do it.

[Anna]

We've been so excited.

[Kim]

We have.

[Anna]

Okay. So Bartholomew is very much, I think, the heart of the night in the moth. Right. He is a bit of levity when things get dark. He's always calling everyone Bartholomew. He's always lightening the mood. And. And underneath that humor, though, there is so much depth. Right. Because he's ancient. He is literally a gargoyle. Right. Bound to the cathedral, but there's this childlike wonder that makes him feel so human, and there's that mix of agelessness and innocence that gives him a way of seeing the truth that no one else can. He can crack a joke and then suddenly drop a line that cuts straight to the heart of everything. And when we finally learn his story in this part, the one that he's been trying to tell for the entire book, really, it's just absolutely gut wrenching. So essentially, his story is that he was once a starving boy, and the abbess found him, revived him in the springswater magic, and she raised him as her own, and she made him like the weaver, says the first Viner. And together they built the faith that is now the foundation of the Stonewater kingdom. And so later, when the five craftsmen arrived and they become the omens and she, the abbess, creates the sacred objects and convinces everyone that they're gods. But that's kind of years later, is when Bartholomew starts to push back, because he obviously is aware of the lies. He helped create them, and he doesn't want to obey her anymore, and he starts refusing her. And this is when the abbess pushes back and everything changes, and she makes him into the gargoyle that we now see him as today.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And it's heartbreaking because. Because, like I said, he did help build this system, and it cost him his humanity, and he didn't ask for it. It's not like he asked to be drowned in the spring, right? Abbas chose to do that.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And despite all of that, he's capable of humor and kindness, and that is what makes him such an emotional anchor to the story. Right? Because he here is a creature who has lost everything, but somehow still manages to see the beauty in it all. And probably a lot of that is because he doesn't quite realize what he has lost, because he doesn't remember. But he does, in a sense. He's just so twisted and she's just. The Abbess is so mean to him, and when you look back on the way that she treated him, and especially knowing all of the history, it's just so awful. But I want to read this quote that he says here. When the heart sore weaver finally outs him as the first diviner. And this is kind of part of his story. Story. The quote starts, the gargoyle's voice hardened. And remember, he's saying the story kind of through the voice of the Abbess. He shut his eyes, imitating the Abbess. Lie in the spring, Bartholomew. What signs do you see? Bartholomew. Don't cry or be sick, Bartholomew. Ignore the pain, Bartholomew. Never complain, Bartholomew. Stop humming, Bartholomew. Soon I'll replace you, Bartholomew. Would you were a daughter, Bartholomew. I'll forget and erase you. Bartholomew. Bartholomew. Bartholomew. Bartholomew. His shoulders shook and he let out a long, mournful sound. She kept me locked away in the cottage with no windows, denied me spring water, thinking I might starve. I do not know how long it took for my body to fracture and change. A long while. I think I must have gone senseless for the pain. I starved. But I did not die turning to stone. Instead, I became a gargoyle, fearsome, a guardian at Aisling Gate. And suddenly she was pleased with me again. Suddenly I was useful once more. After all, swords and armor are nothing to stone. And then he continues. My name was wiped from her stories, and so were the names of all the diviners that came after me. But I tried to hold on. I think I must have spent centuries trying to tell the world who I was. In my own peculiar way. He wrapped his arms around me. To live again after death. Death is strange magic and even stranger fate. Would that things were different, Bartholomew. Would that we had never been reborn. But if we hadn't, well, I have wondered and pondered, and now I am sure, for better or for worse, the rest of the story could not exist without us.

[Kim]

This is so Sad.

[Anna]

It's so heartbreaking. Like I said, he is an ancient creature, but there is such a childlike innocence to him, which makes this even more depressing because. Because he was a child when it happened, and he's kind of, I think, forever stuck, like, frozen in that mindset. But he is also so ancient. He has a lot of wisdom.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And he imparts that to Sybil and to people around him, if they know how to listen and to read between his kind of quirky little ways of phrasing things. And he looks at it and he goes, but maybe that's what this all was for, is so that this is our story. Like, this is the beginning of the. And what we are supposed to do next.

[Kim]

Right? Yeah.

[Anna]

And I just absolutely love him, and I. It makes what happens in the end all the more upsetting.

[Kim]

Oh, yeah, he's wonderful.

[Anna]

But I love his character so much. It's one of my favorite side characters that I've read in a very long time.

[Kim]

Oh, absolutely. He's so special. And the way that Rachel crafts his character. And I think he and Sybil connect a lot with feeling useful.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

And that they're worth. Is tied to being useful to the abbess.

[Anna]

Yes. Like he says, I became a gargoyle, and all of a sudden she needed me again. And he liked that.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Everybody wants to feel needed. Everybody wants to be wanted.

[Kim]

Yes. Okay, so because you said that this quote from Bartholomew, when you do the right thing for the wrong reason, no one praises you. When you do the wrong thing for the right reason, everyone does. Even though what is right and wrong depends entirely on the story you're living in. And no one says they need recognition or praise or love, but we all hunger for it. We all want to be special.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

Oh, God, I love him.

[Anna]

This is the same character who, when he's escaping the cathedral in the beginning of the book, mixes up his words, and instead of saying, farewell, farewell. He's yelling, welfare, welfare. Like, this is the same character. And then he has a line like this, and you're just going, holy shit.

[Kim]

Oh, it's. He contains multitudes. You know what I mean?

[Anna]

Yes. He's so multifaceted. And what a gift Rachel has given me. Us with this character that she's created.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

It's truly beautiful. So anyways, we. We get all of this information, we find out he's the first diviner, the last final omen, sort of is dead. And that takes us to Ashling Cathedral. Kim.

[Kim]

Oh, here we go. Okay, so we show up to the cathedral to defeat the Abbess. And the Abbess comes out, and she's confronting them, and she removes the shroud that has covered the entirety of her head. Turns out out she is all stone as well.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Not a lick of human skin on her.

[Anna]

Yep.

[Kim]

But where the gargoyles are kind of contorted into different animals and shapes. She's more like a statue. Almost like a Michelangelo statue. She's beautiful.

[Anna]

I think of her as like marble.

[Kim]

Yes. Marble. But we learned some very disturbing truths about the history of the Abbess and the diviners. She says, one by one, I retrieved the diviners with the loomstone, held them in my arms. One by one, I broke their necks, strip them of their robes, sent them out into the hamlets that the omens might have their fill. Terribly inconvenient, as I have yet to find new girls. But it had to be done because you decided to break my rules and lead the diviners off the tour. So, really, my dearest girl, you might say this entire misadventure began because of you.

[Anna]

Wow. Gaslighting.

[Kim]

Hate that you. You're disgusting. Then she says this to the faithless. A God is a monster, and I am certainly a God. She touched her stone skin. I was born in this very spring, a hundred years before Bartholomew came to the To. I was a babe, a stillborn. I have never tasted humanity nor food, only sweet, rotten water. My infant flesh fell away, leaving only stone. She smiled and there is nothing to stone.

[Anna]

So I. She's just always been stone.

[Kim]

I don't really understand this. I'm gonna be honest with you.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

I don't understand, like, what do you. Somebody had to give birth to you. Did they give birth in the spring and you were stillborn, so they just left you? Yeah.

[Anna]

I'm, like, confused on how did nobody realize she was all stone? Because don't they touch you wouldn't.

[Kim]

The Abbess has touched Sybil's face before, and Sybil, like, kind of leans into it, like, to seek comfort from her touch.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

So I'm like, could you not tell that her hand was stone?

[Anna]

Yeah. I mean, I know she's covered from head to toe like that. Her shroud is not just over her eyes. It's, like, over her face.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

But, yes. Wouldn't you know that for 10 years.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

She would touch you unless you somehow.

[Kim]

I don't know. I have some questions about this. I'm gonna be be honest with you.

[Anna]

And unfortunately, she's dead now, so.

[Kim]

She's dead. So we might not ever know.

[Anna]

We might not ever know.

[Kim]

I Do love that. Sybil punches the Abbess.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

She says, am I not all that you imagined, or am I so much more?

[Anna]

Oh, God, it's so good.

[Kim]

You are so much more.

[Anna]

Punches her. I love this. She decks her. And then this total chaos erupts and the abyss, and it's Abbess and the gargoyles versus Sybil and her gang. And Sybil almost drowns again because the Abbess is holding her under. But she. She takes her hammer and her chisel, and it's the very one, right, that the Abbess has given her and she's been using for years. And I love it. It is so unceremonious. She just bangs and shatters her into a million pieces. And it's beautiful. She says I struck right upon her stone heart. I was not exact as I had been with the heart sore weaver. This was an annihilation, and Aisling would bear the mark of it. My blows were unbridled in their violence. Stone flying, hitting my face as they flew by, scoring me with pain. Still, I kept striking her. With hammer, with chisel, I hit her until she was dust, until Traum was free of its false gods, until her last breath came. Not loud like the peel of a bell, but frail still, I kept striking her. I struck and I struck and I struck until the final omen was dead.

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[Kim]

That's incredible.

[Anna]

Love that line. Like, not like the peel of a bell. Again, all the imagery that Rachel uses in this book with the cathedral. Chef's kiss.

[Kim]

Chef's kiss. Okay, so let's run through the conclusion because we want to spend some time chatting about, like, maybe a little bit theories for book two. So the Abbess, the omens in the cathedral have been destroyed, and the magic spring water lies buried beneath the rubble. As our cast of characters tries to escape the crumbling cathedral, they see the King's army of knights galloping towards them. And it is unfortunately, at this moment that Benji turns on his friends. With the omens gone, he reveals his plan to rebuild power through wealth and faith manufactured around Sybil. He wants her as his queen, not because he loves her, obviously, but because she is the last diviner, the symbol that he can use to control belief. He admits he's already redistributed the omens hoarded wealth to the nobles to buy their loyalty.

[Anna]

That's what the meeting was.

[Kim]

Right? That's what the meeting was. Benji lashes out at everyone closest to him. Rory, whom he calls a bad knight in a bad influence. Maude, his dearest friend, whom he finally drives to renounce her allegiance against him. Even Bartholomew, who lies broken on the ground. And why?

[Anna]

What did Bartholomew do to you?

[Kim]

Leave him alone.

[Anna]

Leave him alone.

[Kim]

And there's this heartbreaking moment where the boyish Benji almost kind of flickers back, but he shoves it down and it vanishes as he hardens into the king that he has chosen to be. So he offers civil an ultimatum. Basically, her freedom in exchange for Rory. Maud. And the gargoyles lives. And it's a trap. But Rory is bleeding out. The knighthood is closing in, and she has no choice. Sybil tells Rory to go to save himself and the others while she surrenders to Benji. And this. I hate this moment with Bartholomew. So she's like, go take care of Bartholomew and go. So Rory and Bartholomew and Maude are walking away, and they're, like, dragging or kind of carrying Bartholomew. And Bartholomew says, wait, wait, wait. The gargoyle began to sob, more pieces of stone falling from his body. I'm her squire. We cannot be apart. And he's screaming Bartholomew. As they take him away. It's so sad. Oh, my God, I hate it.

[Anna]

I hated this because it's like he takes it so seriously. He's like, of course he does. My job to protect her.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

It's so sad. And I just. Oh, God, I hate it.

[Kim]

I hate it.

[Anna]

So the. The final line of the book is Benjy. And he says, you don't need the signs anymore. You've seen this world for what it is. A tale of lurid contradictions, a true story and also a lie. You've known coin, knowledge, strength, intuition, love, life and death, and beaten them at their craft. You've known everything, diviner. And to be all knowing. The King of Traum smiled at me, his future queen. What is a God if not that?

[Kim]

Wow.

[Anna]

Okay, Benji, we see you hate it.

[Kim]

Hate it.

[Anna]

I don't know. I feel like. I know the writing was kind of on the wall, but I also. It was still really shocking when he stabs.

[Kim]

Agreed. Rory.

[Anna]

Rory.

[Kim]

Yeah, that was shocking.

[Anna]

Yeah, it was very impulsive. I also wonder if how thought out it was. Clearly he was taking money and securing the, you know, rich nobleman. But there's a line that the abbess says at the very, very end of the book, and she says, says to kind of Benji, the Hamlets will always look to their signs and folk will come to me to divine them. I have my cathedral, my spring, my tour. The only thing of influence you ever had, Benedict Castor iii was her. And he points the diviner. And I wonder if that's the moment where he, like, I want to know how much of this was premeditated, because to me, that does make a difference.

[Kim]

Absolutely. I mean, it does in. In real life, too. Premeditated. You know, there's first degree, there's second.

[Anna]

Degree murder, and this is a crime of passion. Or are we panicking?

[Kim]

Right. Was it manslaughter? Was it first degree? Because that's like, death penalty or not.

[Anna]

Yes, I agree.

[Kim]

I do think the meeting with the knights makes me think part of it was being put into motion earlier.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

But I do wonder if the Abbess saying that to Benji was kind of his thing of like, oh, shit, she's all I have.

[Anna]

She's all I have. And she's in love with Rory, but I need her to be my queen.

[Kim]

And then knowing that they wanted to leave, that Rory and Sybil wanted to leave him.

[Anna]

Yes. They didn't want to stay.

[Kim]

And I think him knowing that. That he was like, well, I can't have. I can't have that happen.

[Anna]

Panic mode. Yeah. So I'm really curious where we're going to go with him, because I think we have to have a villain. The Abbess is dead, so we have to have a villain. And he's kind of easily fits that role right now.

[Kim]

Sure.

[Anna]

Rachel has proven in other books that she can take a morally gray character and a character that's confusing.

[Kim]

Absolutely.

[Anna]

And kind of twist them to be something different. So maybe there's hope for him. I don't know. He hasn't killed anyone yet.

[Kim]

Right. He hasn't killed anybody.

[Anna]

And he even said, like, rory, get up. I didn't kill you. Like, he's like, I'm not trying to kill you. Just get up and go.

[Kim]

Yeah. He's like, I don't want to have to do this.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

I can see him being redeemable. It just depends on how far we're gonna push this. Have him go down that dark path. You know what I mean?

[Anna]

Yes. I was more pissed off about shattering Barthol, because that scares me.

[Kim]

Agreed. Agreed.

[Anna]

I do want to note, though, and I'm really clinging to this, Sybil throws herself on of top of Bartholomew, and her tears, it says, fall into the cracks of Bartholomew's like fissured stone.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And I keep thinking that the water has healing properties, so maybe her tears can heal Bartholomew.

[Kim]

That's not crazy. It's not. I kind of hope. I mean, the way it's worded, I'm like, okay, this seems healing, like. Like you're kind of melding him back together.

[Anna]

Yes. Exactly.

[Kim]

He's gonna be fine. Right?

[Anna]

Yes. Right.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

Rachel, let's not take the one happy, sweet character we have.

[Kim]

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I don't know. I'm so interested to see where book two goes. Yeah, I'm interested to see. Rory and Sybil are going to be separated for at least a time. Yeah. Once they get back together, like, what is the story going to be?

[Anna]

And the big thing they did at the end of the book was cover the spring water.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

And Cybil needs that to survive. She's reborn. She has been dead. And as the Abbess says, once you die again, the spring water can't bring you back. Back.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

So if they've covered up the spring water, how the heck is she supposed to. She's going to turn into a gargoyle if she doesn't have that spring water to sustain her.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

So what is that? What is going to happen? She's going to turn into Bartholomew.

[Kim]

Oh, God, I hope not.

[Anna]

So where are we going with this? That's what I'm very interested to see, how we're going to wrap this up in one book.

[Kim]

Me too. Me too.

[Anna]

Anyways, so much fun.

[Kim]

Oh, my God, so much fun. We have been waiting to read this book for months and it didn't not disappoint.

[Anna]

Did not.

[Kim]

Oh, we have had such a blast doing chapter chats and recording this episode. We hope you guys have too. Let us know what you thought of the book and, yeah, we will see you next time.

[Anna]

Cheers and happy reading.

[Kim]

Bye.

[Anna]

Bye.

[Kim]

Well, friends, that wraps up another episode of Flights of Fantasy Podcast. Don't forget to join our book club community on Instagram and TikTok at flights of Fantasy Podcast, where you can share your thoughts, theories, and favorite moments with us and fellow listeners. We'd love to hear from you if you enjoyed today's episode. Please rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps us spread the magic of Romantasy to even more book lovers. Until next time, keep dreaming, keep reading, and remember, every good story deserves to take flight.

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[Anna]

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[Kim]

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