Monty (3:16)

Oh, it never changes.

Andrew Seidel (3:17)

They have. They never changes. They have propaganda, and you can fight propaganda with the truth. And I really wanted to give people not just the real facts and the reality and the true founding of this country, but. But also better arguments to fight back, because I thought that was something that was really lacking. It was kind of often treated as this historical debate about who we are and how we were founded, and not as this. This existential fight against Christian nationalism, which is how the founding myth treats it.

Monty (3:45)

And so I know about your work with Americans United and really pushing policy to separate church and state religious liberty. I know authorship. Is that the bulk of your primary work? What else are you doing, like, in this space? What would you consider your job?

Andrew Seidel (3:59)

Yeah, I mean, so my job is my day job at Americans United, you know, and. And I am a lawyer. I have. I have moved out of the litigating side of this, so I'm not in court anymore doing this, and I'm doing the communication side because turns out there was a lot of lawyers who are really smart and willing to do this work, but maybe are not so great at communicating these complex issues in a way that people can understand, and we were really losing that battle. That became really apparent to me during, for instance, the fight for the Masterpiece cake shop. Yeah. Ace. At the Supreme Court, which. I mean, this is a story about a bigoted business violating the civil rights of a couple. Civil rights that were guaranteed under the law. And it somehow got twisted into this story about this poor persecuted artist who just wanted to bake his cakes.

Monty (4:54)

Thanks, adf.

Andrew Seidel (4:56)

Yes, and ADF was the group behind it. And we were just. We were massively outgunned and really, really just behind. And I was, again, you know, on the front lines kind of having these arguments. And a lot of people in the movement, including my bosses at the time, are like, you need to do more of this side of things, and you're great in the courtroom, but, like, we need people who can do this. This. So. So that's What I do, you know, so I've got the founding myth. I wrote another book called American Crusade, how the SU Court Is Weaponizing Religious Freedom. I've edited a law book for law students with Professor Leslie Griffin. So it's. It's a religious freedom book so that students can learn about this issue. And then I also just launched a couple months ago, a podcast, One Nation Indivisible. You'll notice that there's a little bit missing from that phrase deliberately. So.

Monty (5:48)

Yeah, it's like we just skipped that part.

Andrew Seidel (5:50)

Yeah.

Monty (5:50)

Because it wasn't added until later anyway.

Andrew Seidel (5:53)

Much later. Yeah. And so I, you know, that's. I maybe 12 or 15 episodes in somewhere around there, so. So, yeah, it's writing, talking, fighting. This is. This is everything.

Monty (6:04)

It's like, I just. I fight this fight. It's what I do.

Andrew Seidel (6:06)

Yep, Yep.

Monty (6:07)

Okay. And that's one of the things, meeting you and just obviously reading your book, like, you're so smart and you're so witty, and you also, you know, even when we were at the Capitol for the Summit for Religious Freedom, just this lightness and kind of this comicalness to it that makes the topic a little bit easier to manage because it can get so upsetting. So I wanted to, like, I've had this conversation with my followers, but you're such an expert in it. So what? You know, you show up on a show and someone's like, well, we're a Christian nation. We were founded on Christian principles. Where do you go with that?

Andrew Seidel (6:45)

Yeah, I mean, that is the central argument.

Monty (6:50)

It is. It's the foundation.

Andrew Seidel (6:52)

And they start off that way, and then they fall back on the fuzzier one. It's always like, we're a Christian nation. And then they fall back on the fuzzier Christian principles. I mean, there are a couple places that you can go. I mean, I think it is fair to say that Christianity has had an influence on language and culture and stuff like that. Of course, that's not what they're talking about, and that's not an interesting debate to have. They are arguing that their religion and their holy book is the basis of the American Constitution and system of laws and government. And that is an untenable claim to make. So the first thing I like to try to do is to pin whoever I'm talking to down on that. That that is what they are really arguing so that they can't wiggle out of it later on with the. Oh, well, I just meant that, like, a lot of people are Christian in this country.

Monty (7:46)

Yeah, okay.

Andrew Seidel (7:48)

It's like, so not interesting. Yeah. Let's move on. We can agree on that. Who cares? And so I think, I think really clarifying the debate is important up front. And I do. This is, you know, this is exactly what I do in the founding myth. And I appreciate that you said Christian principles, because the phrase you'll often hear is Judeo Christian principles, which is kind of a phrase. It's a. It's a fig leaf meant to mask what is an exclusionary, discriminatory movement. Right. Christian nationalism is not about including religious minorities.

Monty (8:20)

Yeah.

Andrew Seidel (8:21)

It is about privileging straight, white, CIS conservative Christian men at the expense of everybody else. Yes. And this myth making that they get into serves that end. And really what they are trying to do is to claim to be the true heirs of the United States, of the American experiment. A phrase I love that's just, that's from the founding. And to say that everybody else is lesser, it's. This is not just this, this vague historical debate. It really goes to the rights that we as individuals have in here and now. And, and that I think is like the key place to why you have to pin them down early because then you can make the case that that's. This is what we're talking about.

Monty (9:15)

Yeah.

Andrew Seidel (9:15)

And we're not just talking about the history of these guys sitting around in Philadelphia, you know, debating the words that were going to appear on this parchment. It is much bigger than that and it has an impact on every single person listening to this right now.

Monty (9:30)

Yeah. And so how do you approach. Because we were talking about this before recording is, you know, we know. And so many of the founding fathers had conversations about religion not being what this is founded on. Like they said it openly, like it's not founded on Christianity. You know, the best of all worlds would be if there was no religion in it. They made these comments, obviously, Thomas Jefferson wrote about the separation of church and state. But there is that claim that you mentioned there where they say, well, separation of church and state isn't in the Constitution, so therefore it doesn't apply.

Andrew Seidel (10:02)

Yeah, That's. That is, I think, actually my favorite. And because I. This is something, you know, I've dedicated my, not just my career, but my, my life to this. Right. So the wall of separation between church and state is an American original. It is an American invention. The idea was floating around in the Enlightenment, but. But it was first implemented in the American experiment. Until then, no other nation in the history of the world had sought to protect the ability of its citizens to think Freely by separating religion and government. And I think that is something that we can be proud of, and we should certainly not let people undermine it with myths about founding of a Christian nation. And if you. If you get into the nitty gritty, if you look at the truly unique and original elements of our Constitution, they're all secular.

Monty (10:57)

All of them.

Andrew Seidel (10:58)

All of them. Our Constitution was the first to declare that power comes from the people, not gods. So those words that we all love to talk about, those first three words, we the people, they're poetic, but they're also so much more. They are a declaration of power in a revolutionary declaration of power that had not been done before. Self government, not government, by pointing to a God. And our Constitution was the first governing document, not to mention a God or a deity. And it's godless by choice, not by accident. And there were, as there are now, there were people in the founding generation who objected to that choice. It pissed them off.

Monty (11:39)

Yep.

Andrew Seidel (11:39)

And there have actually been a number of attempts over the years to change we the People to include, you know, a nod to Jesus Christ. And all of them have been defeated throughout American history. And then you get a ban on religious tests for public office in Article 6. And our constitution was the first to do that. And this is actually the only mention of religion in the original, unamended document. Religion appears nowhere in the original document except to ban religious tests for public office. And this is some of the most clear and emphatic language in a document that's often deliberately vague. So. Right. If you remember back to, like, your high school government class or whatever, you probably learned that the Constitution was kind of meant to be an outline. Right. Like it set up these boundaries. And then later generations would come and put meat on the bone. Something along those lines. But not here. Right in this, it says, no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust. No shall ever. Any. I mean, that is as clear and emphatic as you can be. And then after all of that, then you get the First Amendment, which comes along and separates church and state and guarantees religious freedom. And so there is a whole lot that is wrong with our Constitution. And I say that as a constitutional attorney who's studying this thing. There's a lot that is wrong with that document. But. But those secular foundations are what made it unique. And they are genuine contributions not just to political science and to thought, but to all humanity.

Monty (13:20)

That's incredible. And I never. It never, as someone who's read the Constitution, talked about it like that Article 6 in the emphatic language.

Andrew Seidel (13:29)

Yeah.

Monty (13:29)

Like, it never clicked for me the way you just explained it as far as, like, they were very clear that religion did not qualify or disqualify you from office. When, you know, I, and you know this, I grew up super alt right. My whole family's Republican politicians. And it was very much taught in my growing up years that if someone is not a Christian, they are not qualified to lead. Which is actually in direct contrast to what the founding Fathers thought.

Andrew Seidel (13:57)

Yeah. And actually there is another spot where in the Constitution where religion sort of surfaces a little bit, even though it doesn't get an explicit mention. And it goes to exactly what you're talking about. And that's an Article 2, Section 1, Clause 8. And this is the Presidential oath of office. Okay. The Constitution actually lays out the words that are said verbatim in quotation marks in the Presidential oath. And it's I do solemnly swear and then in parentheses or affirm. Right. Because there were Christians who couldn't swear, there were believers who couldn't swear, so they could affirm instead and then goes on to say, faithfully execute the office to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and period. Doesn't include the word so help me God. But it's that, that parenthetical ability to affirm that also is kind of a nod to, you know, the religious pluralism that they were creating by separating church and state and the freedom that they were granting to everybody. And it's not until really around depending the first probably mention of so help me God is Chester a. Arthur in 1881, and then not until World War I do you start to get presidents adding so help me God to that oath that is clearly written out and clearly does not include those words in the Constitution.

Monty (15:20)

Well, and then under God gets added. And in God we trust gets added to money. And that's all Eisenhower.

Andrew Seidel (15:27)

So, yeah, and I took. This is actually, you know, in the founding myth, you know, I mentioned that I've been. I'd had these arguments so many times. And this is the part of the founding, this is part four that I was so bitter about having to write and include. But one nation under God, in God we Trust are two of the most popular arguments that you hear from Christian nationalists. 100% to claim that we were founded as a Christian nation, even though none of them date from the founding era. And it takes like not even two seconds to figure that out on Google, you know, and so it's amazing that they blow that so badly. It's just like time is not that difficult. I know you're not that bad at this, but the, the other thing that is striking to me about this, and this is. So I tell the story of how these came to be in the founding myth because to me, the story is really, really fascinating. Because what you. What you get when you examine this is you see that during times of fear and national crisis, this small group of straight, white Christian men took advantage of that fear in that national crisis to impose their narrow religion on everybody else using the machinery of the state. Right. That they took advantage of the crisis. And so actually, the first time in God We Trust really comes into being is during the Civil War. This is actually. It is debated amongst this very small group of men. It's proposed by a preacher, a guy named Mark Watkinson, who finds two very sympathetic ears in the Secretary of Treasury and the Director of the Mint. And he. One of. One of those guys was also one of those people who was pushing to add Jesus Christ to the preamble to give you an idea of the sympathetic audience.

Monty (17:17)

Yes.

Andrew Seidel (17:18)

Yes. And so these guys are. They're looking around, and this is the. It's 1863. Brother is killing brother. It's. It's the bloodiest war in. In American history. It's. It's. Lincoln has suspended habeas corpus. It's. It's chaos all around. And these guys look around and they're like, you know, we need to. Do. We need to get God on our coins because if we lose this battle, people are going to be like, they lost because, you know, they didn't. They didn't have the right God. And there's a little. There's a little piece of this puzzle, too, that's interesting is because when. When the Confederacy seceded, they. They wrote their own Constitution. And unlike the godlessness of the U.S. constitution, they, they. They cribbed a lot, they stole a lot, plagiarized a lot, and then they added Jesus to it. Yep.

Monty (18:07)

Tons of God, tons of God.

Andrew Seidel (18:08)

Deo vindice is their. Their motto. Right. God will vindicate our cause. And, and so you get these three guys who are like, you know, they're. They're. They're kind of leaning on. On the Almighty. Maybe we should, too. And, and, and really, it's these, these three gu. They're going to put in God We Trust on our coins. And, and we have some of the letters that they wrote to each other. And what they were talking about, you know, they're talking about how it's pro. Propitious. Propitious. Right. That it's. It's lucky that things are so bad right now because we can turn to God and. And, you know, researching this is just. That really stuck with me. And you get. You get something similar when you get to the 1950s, and you get this just wave of Christian nationalism, these artifacts, these disfiguring scars that have been imposed on the country. And, you know, from. From 1951 to 1956, you get all kinds of stuff. You get the National Day of Prayer becomes a thing. You get the National Prayer Breakfast. You get a prayer room put in the US Capitol, which features a stained glass window of George Washington kneeling in prayer in Valley Forge, which we know didn't happen. You get in God We Trust added to all of currency. You get Under God added to the pledge. You actually get a raft of proposals to add Jesus Christ to the US Constitution. Again, all of those failed. But it. It is. It is these times of national fear and crisis, right? This is Korean War atomic scare. The McCarthyism is kind of on the wane. And these people, these Christian nationalists, as we've come to call them now, are taking advantage of that. That fear and that national crisis to impose their religion on everybody at a time when dissent is virtually impossible. Right. When dissent means you might get hauled up before the House UN American Activities Committee, where it might. Means you might lose your job and you might lose your security clearance. Right? It's the reign of witches. It's not possible to dissent. Excuse me. Not witches, witch hunters. Important distinction.

Monty (20:12)

Yes. Big distinction.

Andrew Seidel (20:13)

Big distinction. And it's that time where we get this Christian nationalism imposed on us. And what I have. I've begun to. I talk about this on the podcast recently begun to think about Christian nationalism like a ratchet, right? It operates like a ratchet. So they successfully get in God We Trust on the coins in 1863, and that. That locks it one notch farther. And then they get it put on the paper currency, and then they get it into the pledge, and then they get a National Day of Prayer, and then they get a National Prayer Breakfast, and they get a prayer room in the capital. And each one of these is click, click, click, click. And it becomes very, very difficult, very difficult to unwind that Christian nationalism once you have lost that battle. And it's something that I'm thinking about a lot, and it's a big motivator for me in this fight right now, because once they've got it, it is damn near impossible to undo.

Monty (21:13)

Yeah. And one of the things you talking about, Christian nationalists taking advantage of times of crisis. And I'm working on an episode about the family and the fellowship who run the National Prayer Breakfast. And the fact that they were founded in the heart of the Great Depression as the country's experiencing all this economic instability. But now FDR and Democrats are proposing these social programs to help protect people, help reinvigorate the economy, and then the family gets founded in the midst of all of that. And then by the 50s, they've now instituted the prayer breakfast. And I never quite put the timing of them being founded in the. In the space of people were scared and suffering. And then this group starts to work because they know they can work in this area. And churches now operate the same way. Like it is beneficial to them for people to be scared and poor and not have healthcare, because it's easier to convert people, because you can sell them that you have the answer and that God is gonna help them and God is gonna give them prosperity. It's a lot easier to get people in the pew when they're not taken care of.

Andrew Seidel (22:19)

Yeah, I talk about this a little bit in American Crusade at the end about how. How one of the things that we're seeing a lot these days is in the cases that are coming before the Supreme Court is these cases about religious groups that want to provide social services. They want to help parents adopt kids. They want to place kids in loving homes, but only in ways that conform to their religious beliefs.

Monty (22:42)

Yes, only in straight, white Christian homes.

Andrew Seidel (22:45)

Exactly. And they want to take your tax dollars to do it. And, you know, we at Americans United, we represent this Jewish couple who was denied the ability to foster a kid because they were Jewish, because the local group that provides that training and those foster services is a Christian ministry that is funded by the state. You know, this is actually a thing that we saw before the Supreme Court recognized marriage equality in the Obergefell decision. A lot of folks don't remember this, but states started doing this on their own and started recognizing marriage equality. And as they were doing that, you had Catholic foster and adoption agencies in those states shutting down. And instead of placing any children with, you know, loving families, they just said, nope, we're done.

Monty (23:39)

We're not doing this at all.

Andrew Seidel (23:41)

Kids, you're on your own. Yeah.

Monty (23:43)

So pro life of them.

Andrew Seidel (23:47)

And there's this kind of. To your point, I had to rewrite the chapter I had on the 1950s when I did the founding myth, because at the time, a person who I consider a friend now Kevin Cruz, who's a historian at Princeton, published a book called One Nation Under God. Right. As I was kind of finishing my first draft and getting ready to turn it in. And he did some phenomenal original research and into the creation and selling of religion to the American public in the wake of FDR's new deal.

Monty (24:26)

Yeah.

Andrew Seidel (24:27)

And there was. There were these groups of Christians who partnered with big business to sell an anti New Deal religion. The clergy called it spiritual mobilization. And we're literally talking about religious messaging called the Religion in American Life campaign that was conducted by the Ad Council with the Mad Men, like from the TV show, like, America's Best Admin and ad agencies. Right. And like, their goal was to show that religious institutions were the basis of American life and to urge Americans to attend houses of worship. And they pump out thousands and thousands and thousands of ads from 1949 to 1956. And the goal is to use those people in the pews to then undo the New Deal. And it is this anti New Deal push, backed by billionaires, that have found in the churches a convenient ally to do what they could not otherwise do because it would be wildly unpopular in a democracy. And that really is the story of Christian nationalism that we're fighting today.

Monty (25:42)

Yeah.

Andrew Seidel (25:43)

And it's a. It's a. Kevin. Kevin's book is remarkable. I really encourage everybody to read it. My. My chapter certainly built a lot on it. But again, you know, you get. You get so much of what we. We see today and what is claimed by Christian nationalists today to show that we're a Christian nation, dates to that area is capped off by, of course, Cecil B. DeMille's Ten Commandments movie, which comes out in 1956. And if you've ever seen any of the granite monuments around the front of public buildings, for instance, in Austin, Texas, on the Capitol grounds there, or Denver, Colorado, on the Capitol grounds there, these granite monuments to the Ten Commandments were actually part of the publicity push to get people to go see the movie. Jeez. Yeah. And then now they're taking it. I mean, there is a certain amount of, like, that's really kind of is very American. Like, we're pushing a movie. Yeah.

Monty (26:40)

Like. And that's how you're gonna do it.

Andrew Seidel (26:41)

Yeah, like, there's a certain amount of. Like, okay, this is. This is very America, but also completely un American, but also.

Monty (26:47)

Yikes.

Andrew Seidel (26:48)

Separation of church and state. Yeah. Yeah.

Monty (26:51)

That's incredible. If you follow my content, you know that I talk a lot about history, but I also talk a lot about current events and news. This past Memorial Day I received a DM saying that Trump called Biden and his administration as well as veterans scum at an Arlington Day speech. I had to go see if this was really true. So the first thing I did was went over to Ground News where they show me all the sources brought into one space and I can see the bias of each source, how factual it is. The first place I went for this story was I wanted to find a news article that was center and high factuality. And I found out that while Trump didn't say that at the Arlington speech, several hours prior to that he had released a tweet that did in fact call the Biden administration scum as well as insulted other Americans. It's really important in this barrage of information to be able to find sources that you can trust because you know what their bias is and you know how factual they are. Ground News also helps me see just how much of each side, the left and the right, is reporting on a specific topic. It really saves me a lot of time and a lot of content overwhelm. If you subscribe today using the link groundnews.com Monty, you'll get 40% off their vantage. Plan to stay informed with a resource that you can trust. This episode is also brought to you by Intravenous Solutions, Nashville's premier IV therapy and wellness center. IV therapy can help you recover quicker from a heavy workout, workout or from illness, treat the symptoms of dehydration and improve sleep and give you healthy glowing skin. Being on stage several times a week and talking so much, I can say that IV treatments keep me on my feet and are a lifesaver. Dr. Allen and his staff are so kind and so knowledgeable. They make sure that every appointment is welcoming and easy. They also offer vitamin shots, oxygen therapy, Botox filler, weight management and mobile services. With four locations in Nashville, Hendersonville, Franklin and their brand new location on Second Avenue in the Bankers Alley Hotel by Hilton. It is so easy to get high quality care all week. So come party in Nashville and beat the hangover at Intravenous Solutions. Give the code Monty10 at checkout for a 10% discount on services. So you know in the work that you're doing and you know, obviously it's chaos right now. What are some cases that are incoming to the Supreme Court that are like really on your radar?

Andrew Seidel (29:03)

Yeah, the Supreme Court's got three cases this term that are pretty huge. The first one's out of Wisconsin and essentially it could upend the unemployment system and it is it is brought by groups that are affiliated with Catholic Charities. Basically, Catholic Charities absorbed some other non profits and now says that those non profits are religious and they are exempt from paying any unemployment taxes, even though they've paid them for years. And Catholic Charities itself has paid them for years. They're claiming religious freedom. Right. To not pay that. So they are likely going to win that case, the Supreme Court. It's going to upend unemployment systems, certainly in Wisconsin. But there's going to be follow on cases that'll do that around the country. And then they're not just going to limit themselves to unemployment. Right. Essentially they're going to argue that any kind of government regulation that gets at, I mean, you can expand it to your heart's content. Right. This religious exemption, any religious exemption that exists anywhere in the law is going to get blown up. And the reason it's going to get blown up is because these cases aren't organic. It's not Catholic Charities bringing it. It's these Christian nationalist groups. In this case, the Beckett Fund, like ADF that you mentioned earlier. Right. These groups are bringing these cases on purpose to change the face of American law, to again accomplish what they can accomplish democratically. That's one case that's terrifying. It's terrifying. It's going to have far reaching ramifications. Nobody's talking about it. Another case is the Mahmood case, which is out of Maryland. And essentially, again, Beckett Fund is, is the group on this. And essentially what you have is this school district has brought inclusive books into the classrooms, into including elementary school classrooms. Right. Books with LGBTQ characters, people who are LGBTQ existing in literature. And parents have objected to that, basically arguing they should get a heckler's veto now and get those books out of the classroom now. They are, they would say no, that's not what we're arguing. We're just, we would want an opt out, the ability to opt out of any curriculum that would include LGBTQ themes or themes that would violate our religion. But the problem with that is that we're just talking about books that are sitting in the library, in the classroom that students may pick up and read, that teachers may pick up and read. It's not part of a curriculum. So for instance, it's not akin to like a health class.

Monty (31:31)

Yeah. You're not being required to study this material.

Andrew Seidel (31:35)

Yeah. It's just part. It's something that is there, it exists. And there's also a whole issue with we don't actually know how they're going to use this because the case was brought so early and there was no factual development. So there's a kind of a separate thing with that. But it also, if the court agrees with this, these parents, and the court is almost certainly likely to, it raises some really harrowing possibilities. It's like, okay, so if you can object to the existence of an LGBTQ book in the classroom, can you object to the existence of an LGBTQ teacher in a classroom or an LGBTQ student in a classroom or a tr. Like, I mean, imagine a trans kid in a classroom. Are the parents going to have to now notify those religious parents that have challenged this and say, and do they get to opt out or do they get to get to say, oh, sorry, you can't be in my kid's classroom? How is that going to work? It's a disaster. And it is also worth pointing out that the school district did try to come up with some sort of opt out that would make this work and workable, and they couldn't figure it out because it's not this standalone kind of.

Monty (32:44)

Well, and it's also, it's not honest. It's, it's, it's done in bad faith to take more power. Because what they don't, like, oh, they're indoctrinating the kids. Acknowledging that gay people are real is not indoctrination. Like, but putting the Ten Commandments on.

Andrew Seidel (32:57)

The wall is 100%.

Monty (32:59)

It's not, it's not an argument that's. You can't win an argument that's done in bad faith.

Andrew Seidel (33:03)

True. And it's also, like, if you want your education to comply with the rules of your religion, you go get a religious education.

Monty (33:14)

Yeah. Or home school.

Andrew Seidel (33:15)

I mean, yeah, that is, that is the solution. And yes, maybe that is more expensive. Maybe that costs you more time. Maybe it costs you more money. I mean, one, take that up with your church. I don't know. Like, but also, like, yes, sometimes choosing to follow a religion is burdensome, but it's not on everybody else in society to shoulder that burden. It's your choice. That is what religious freedom means. It means freely burdening yourself with a religion and what comes with it. Not getting to transfer that burden to everybody else. Yeah.

Monty (33:49)

You don't get to make everybody else do it.

Andrew Seidel (33:51)

Yeah, yeah. Like, literally. Not my cross to bear. Sorry.

Monty (33:54)

Literally and figuratively. That's one of the things about Christian nationalism. Like, looking back on it now and not understanding the system that I was participating in when I grew up, but the fact that there's this. It's this undercurrent of. They completely negate that religion is all about personal choice. And for them, it's about forcing it on other people. And the fact that functionally Christians don't believe in religious pluralism. They believe that religious exceptions should only apply to them. They believe that special treatment should only apply to them. And if it doesn't apply to them, well, then you're persecuting them.

Andrew Seidel (34:28)

And that is the story I tell. An American crusade from the legal standpoint. And that was well said. I mean, perfectly right on. And also gets to kind of the last case that the court is considering. And it's. It's essentially whether or not we're going to have in this country religious public schools. Jesus.

Monty (34:47)

Oh, that's right, the charter school.

Andrew Seidel (34:49)

Yep. This is out of Oklahoma. It involves a Catholic charter school. Under Oklahoma law, very clearly, charter schools are defined as public schools, both under state law. The Oklahoma Supreme Court found that charter schools were. Were public schools. The law literally says that almost verbatim. National. There's all these national charter school organizations that agree that charter schools are public schools. That's how we treat them. That's how they're organized. And the Catholic Church in Oklahoma created this charter school. And there's a whole bunch of shenanigans in how the school was approved, including with Ryan Walters, who sadly, many of you probably recognize that name. You should not know the name of the superintendent of education if he is not in your state. Yeah, it's like a black mark on Ryan Walters. But this is. I mean, basically Christian nationalists have turned to Oklahoma and said, we're going to make this our pilot state. ADF is involved in this case. Becca, first. Excuse me. First. Liberty Institute is involved in this case. The Notre Dame Religious Liberty Clinic is involved in this case. And they took it to the Supreme Court. And it depends on how the court decides it. My guess, based on the oral argument is that they'll somehow decide that this is not a public school, which would not be the worst case scenario. There are worse scenarios, but it's still going to be a very bad decision. But I think they're going to say that, yeah, you have to allow this Catholic school to form. And that's even with Amy Coney Barrett sitting this case out because she's best friends with some of the folks at the Notre Dame Religious Liberty Clinic and recused herself as a result of that. So three really, really bad cases on top of a number of cases from the 2022 term. And just, I mean, religion is on a Christianity is on a remarkable winning streak under the Roberts court. And it is to your point, what you were just saying, it's not about religious freedom. It's about claiming religious freedom to violate or impose on the rights of other people. And that is fundamentally not freedom and is inherently unequal.

Monty (37:02)

Yeah. And I mean even the fact that now we're seeing in some statewide bills that separate but equal language is starting to show up and that I found so deeply concerning. And ultimately again, somebody that grew up in this system, participated in this system shamefully, and now tries to fight it. Like I know what the end game is. Cause they told me. Cause my dad raised me. I was kind of being groomed to go to law school and become a conservative judge. Like the goal of my dad's political think tank unit was to get me on a district or the Supreme Court. That was the vision that they had. So it's, you know, I know from being in those conversations that it's about power, that there's no space for mercy or religious plurality or equality. It's about you either listen to what I have to say, my interpretation of my own religion, or I get to treat you like a second class citizen. And that's my right. But you can't do that to me because they're taking the Christ out of Christmas.

Andrew Seidel (38:05)

That was a favorite of mine for a long time.

Monty (38:08)

I was like, really?

Andrew Seidel (38:10)

I did as I did a series. I don't know. I don't even know if they exist anymore. On some very. When I was at the Freedom from Religion foundation of Letters from the Front, a War on Christmas. Letters written in the style of the old Civil War. Letters that like Ken Burns used to read on the Civil War documentary. Right. And I wrote a few of those from the front in the War on Christmas. Your point earlier about. You have to find some sort of joy, joy and fun in this fight because it is so depressing and so bad sometimes and the stakes are so damn high that if you kind of really do have to be able to smile to do it for a while.

Monty (38:51)

Yeah. And you mentioned in before recording that there was a research article being cited claiming that the Founding Fathers quoted the Bible more than any other document. Yeah, I haven't read this study yet, but I'm super curious as to what the study is, what people are saying and what it actually says says, because typically what people say it says is not the same.

Andrew Seidel (39:12)

So one of the things you'll hear, and this is typically from Christian nationalists who are a little more, slightly more sophisticated than the Under God, in God We Trust crowd and they. You will hear that the Bible was the most cited book during the founding generation. And that's if they're. They're being clever about it. This, this is a. It traces back to David Barton, who's the granddaddy of Christian nationalist disinformation. Yeah. So he and his family run this, this propaganda mill called Wall Builders. And, you know, they've been called pseudo historians. That is unfair to pseudo historians everywhere. They are propagandists.

Monty (39:53)

Yeah. I met Dave Spartan.

Andrew Seidel (39:55)

Oh, God. They tell me that story over a drink one day.

Monty (39:58)

I know, right? We'll get a scotch and have a conversation about it.

Andrew Seidel (40:01)

Jail. The sad part is, the sad fact is propaganda works. I mean, that's, that's why they don't have any new arguments. But there's like a lot of good propaganda. There's a kernel deep down in here that if you dig into, you can find. And it's a study, this study based from a guy named Donald Lutz. And, and researchers looked at the political documents of the founding era and then counted each time that it cited another author. And. And printed sermons were a common form of literature at the time.

Monty (40:34)

Yes.

Andrew Seidel (40:34)

You'll. You'll be shocked to learn that in those printed sermons, citations to the Bible rank highly.

Monty (40:40)

Yeah, because it's a. It is a sermon.

Andrew Seidel (40:42)

It is a sermon, you know, and if you, if you listen to the Christian nationalists, that's where the analysis ends. Right. Except, of course, this study digs significantly deeper than that. And if you look at the sermons, they cite the Bible more than eight times on average. But if you set aside those sermons and look at the real political writing, they cite the Bible about 0.3 times, which is about once in every three or four works. And then if you just don't just come up with this sort of fluffy phrase in the founding era, and you look at the years of the Constitutional Convention, that plummets to one citation in every 16 publications.

Monty (41:24)

Wow. That is a huge difference.

Andrew Seidel (41:27)

It's a huge difference. And then the study actually says this. And I just pulled up the quote so I can get it right. Quote. The Bible's prominence disappears, which is not surprising since the debate centered upon specific institution about which the Bible has little to say. So when the researchers were looking for biblical influence in the framing of our founding document, that was their conclusion. The Bible's prominence disappears. And it's even more striking when you continue to dig, because the Federalists. Right. These are. This was the group that was supporting the strong U.S. constitution, the strong sort of central federal government. Federalist federal government. They never cited the Bible, not once. And that's what the study actually says. And this holds when you look at, at the records of the Constitutional Convention, which we also now have. So I love, we're about. I'm going to nerd out for just a second.

Monty (42:25)

I love it. Please do, please do.

Andrew Seidel (42:27)

So Philadelphia, Independence hall. The founders are there and they're meeting in secret. Like we forget this. Like all the doors are closed, the windows are closed. This is summer in Philly. This is not nice.

Monty (42:40)

Stinky and sweaty and I mean it must have been.

Andrew Seidel (42:43)

And rank in that room. Like it, like you don't when you go to Independence hall. It doesn't. But it must have been awful. And, and they're, they've, they've sequestered themselves in this room and they, one of the first things they do is they agree to keep everything, all their proceedings secret for 50 years. But they're all keeping records and they're all writing each other letters and they're all writing in their diary and James Madison is scribbling, basically the secretary of the Convention scribbling all these notes down, right? But we don't, we don't get those until 50 years after. And then now there's all these great additions. Max Ferrand has this great edition which kind of compiles all of the records that we have in chronological order, including the diaries and all this. And so you can, you can, you can see when, when you look at those three volumes of records, the Bible's like non existent. It's, it's never, never lifted up as the Bible says this we should do it. There's like a couple of allusions to it for like, kind of like storytelling purposes. Like Ben Franklin in particular, right. Like loves to spin a good yarn. And there's one moment that the Christian nationalists love again, this is another David Barton favorite. He says, you know they proposed prayer at the Constitutional Convention. Ben Franklin, you know, the atheist, the deist, the non Christian, even proposed a prayer because this is how religious all these people were. But they don't tell you the follow up, which is that they didn't pray, they didn't do it, they didn't need it. And in Franklin's own handwriting on his, which you can see, you can see the original in this. It's so cool. He says the convention, except for three or four persons, thought prayer unnecessary. And so there are moments in American history, including the Continental Congress, right, when the founders are debating independence. Things like that, where they do pray and they do it publicly. And it's these public piety, these political piety moments where they're leveraging religion for political ends. And you can see that. But when they're in secret, behind closed doors, doing their thing, they're not citing.

Monty (44:52)

The Bible and drinking the Bible so much.

Andrew Seidel (44:55)

Yeah, and drinking so much, which is one of my. Also my favorite things. And I'm thrilled to hear you mention that. They're not praying because they don't need it. Yeah. And this is not where they're getting their. Their ideas from. Do you want to get into the drinking?

Monty (45:07)

Yes, I want to get into the drinking. Let's talk about the drinking. I used to have a list written out of how much they, like, drank after it was signed. And I don't remember the numbers, but I remember, like, I was recording a podcast about the Constitution drinking while I was reading that. And I was like, I need more. I need more scotch. I need bourbon. I need something like, somebody bring me more to drink. I gotta keep up, up.

Andrew Seidel (45:29)

I. I have. Let me see if I can find it. I have this somewhere. The amount of wine that they drank. Yeah, we. So we have the. The bar bill from the founding era, from that last. That last time after they have all signed it. How much. How much did they actually drink and spend? And it is. It is an insane. Just. Here it is for folks. The title of my document here is Founding Fathers Drunk at Constitutional Convention. Bar Tap. That is the document name. Okay, so this is like. And I. This is. So here, 54 bottles of Madeira, 60 bottles of Claret, 8 bottles of old stock, 22 bottles of Porter, 8 bottles of cider, 12 bottles of beer, 7 large bowls of punch. And obviously the cider and the punch were alcoholic. And this is September 14, 1787, for 55 gentlemen. And the bill also includes cigars, spermaceti, candles, and charges for broken wine glasses and tumblers. Then this is 21 bottles of wine and seven bowls of punch for the servants and the musicians. Okay, so, yeah, if you want to know what that. That comes out to, it's £89, four shillings and two pence, which is, depending on what calculator you use, somewhere between 18 and 19 grand today. Just amazing.

Monty (47:06)

It's so amazing. It's one of my favorite little factoids about them. Again, again, against this whole idea of, like, these pious religious men. I'm like, no, they weren't. Come on.

Andrew Seidel (47:17)

Yeah, yeah. And the only sort of, like, argument, I guess, is they. They were like, water was not safe to drink then. Right. Like you can't just drink water out of whatever. Well in Philadelphia, it's not safe. So like they, they tend. People tended towards alcohol and fortified things more than, than not. But yeah, I mean, the idea that the founders and this is like one of the more popular arguments that you hear too, right. That like, I mean, you just, you said it, they were all, they were all Christians. They were all very much Bible believing, very religious men. And this is, this is again something that like I kind of felt like I didn't really shouldn't have had to deal with. But I deal with it very early on in the founding myth because it's, it's is such a popular argument. But the reality is, is like you can be a deeply, deeply religious person and that doesn't mean that when you are at work, you are bringing that religion into every single thing you do.

Monty (48:19)

Yeah.

Andrew Seidel (48:20)

You know, it doesn't mean. Even if I conceded the fact that the founders were all Jesus rose from the dead Bible believing Christians, that in no way suggests that our Constitution is based on those particular beliefs. Right. And the fact that we just went over, right. That they didn't cite it at all, didn't talk about it at all. The Bible doesn't exist in the records that we have.

Monty (48:44)

They decided prayer wasn't needed.

Andrew Seidel (48:46)

Yeah, like that tells us a lot more than what their personal religious beliefs may have been at that particular point in time. Never mind that like people change their religious beliefs all the time too, right? Like, yeah, I mean, well, and also.

Monty (48:59)

There'S, there's the political ploy of it of like presenting a certain way and it, you know, makes you look better in a political spectrum. Like they played the game too. Like they knew the culture that they were in and the concern, like the culture as a whole was more conservative because of the time frame. You know, but to say that, you know, this was what they, you know, were writing, that would be like saying if I'm, you know, a health data analyst, I'm going in and writing in God in all my data entries when it's not relevant. It's not, it doesn't mean I'm going to do that.

Andrew Seidel (49:33)

And I mean, you know, again, like it's to the point that it was a different time. That's really important. Right. Like we know George Washington, for instance, we know he was a member of the Anglican Church, but like you had to be in Virginia at the time to be, to hold any other public office until Virginia disestablished the church. And we also Know that later on, like, like some of the religious leaders who were, you know, ministering to Washington were like, hey, like, wasn't really, wasn't really like, religious. Not much of a believer. We know that he didn't take communion, that he didn't pray in public, and we know that on his deathbed where he, he lingered for quite a while for, for many hours, he actively chose not to have any religious consolation at his deathbed.

Monty (50:19)

Like, that's just pretty telling.

Andrew Seidel (50:20)

Religious guy. Yeah.

Monty (50:21)

He just doesn't seem like it was necessary for what he wanted to achieve. And that's.

Andrew Seidel (50:27)

But again, like, I mean, to me that, like, I guess there is an argument to be there. Like, if they're not religious, we're pretty sure they're not using biblical principles to do something. But like, even if we concede the point, it does not prove what they think it proves.

Monty (50:41)

Yeah, well, and I guess kind of like as we move forward, like, I get a question because I do talk about bills and staying active and contacting your representatives and what do we do? Like, this show ship is headed in a real bad direction real fast. What the hell do us sane people who want social services and want equality effectively do to make actionable change?

Andrew Seidel (51:08)

Yeah, I mean, the number one thing that I'm, I'm going to ask everybody to do is to go join Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which is that again, that's my day job. You were at the Summit for Religious Freedom. I think you can testify to this. But our whole. What we do is bring people of all religions and none together to protect the right of everybody to believe as they want as long as they're not.

Monty (51:31)

Harming others and don't discriminate against others.

Andrew Seidel (51:34)

And don't discriminate against others. We're in the courts, we're in the legislatures, we're in the public square, we're out on the streets marching. You name it, we are out there doing it. For 80 years, Au has been the organization working to ensure that church separation is that shield that protects the religious freedom of all of us. And the thing that I love about the organization and the work is that we can only do that as Americans United. And that's why I'm so proud to be part of an organization that embodies that value in its very name. So if you want to support that amazing and crucial work, visit au.org today. So, I mean, that's the number one thing that I tell people. The other thing is I every. If you are, if you are this Far into this podcast. Go run for office. Yeah, you. If you are this interested in this, go run for office. There are many, many local offices which you could run for which you would be unopposed. I'm positive that you're sitting there thinking, well, I am not qualified to be whatever. Let's say the school board. You are.

Monty (52:40)

You are.

Andrew Seidel (52:41)

Yes. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene is the counter argument. Lauren Boebert is the counterargument to that.

Monty (52:50)

Did you see the Colorado woman who's challenging Boebert seat her ad campaign? She's a rear admiral in the Navy.

Andrew Seidel (53:03)

Yeah.

Monty (53:03)

And she is a badass. Like, she gets on there, and they're introducing her, and it's this strong announcer language. And she's like, listen, I'm just a mom, and I try to juggle serving in the military and taking care of my kids. Like, well, did you think you would become a politician? She's like, absolutely not. Well, why did you. And then she just pulls up this clip of Boebert telling veterans that, like, you staying healthy is not my problem.

Andrew Seidel (53:26)

Wow.

Monty (53:27)

And then she's like, okay, Lauren, if it's not your problem, I'll make it mine. And the ad is just. So what is her name? Hang on, I gotta look. Yeah, let's go support her. I was like, please. Like, please let her win. Because Bobert and Green are just.

Andrew Seidel (53:43)

But there's. You know, there's. There's a million Boebert in greens. And people should.

Monty (53:47)

You.

Andrew Seidel (53:47)

Should they. My point is they are. They are not hindered or hamstrung by the belief that they are unqualified despite manifest evidence to prove the point. And, you know, I mean, I'll just say one other thing while you're finding that is, like, I pulled together a list. I did a crossover episode for One Nation, Indivisible, with Brad Onishi, who runs the Straight White American Jesus podcast and who wrote a great book called Preparing for War. You know, similar to you, Monty, he kind of came out of this. This Christian nationalist space, and Preparing for War, he asks the question, would I have been at January 6th? Which was really interesting. Anyway, we did a crossover episode, and we. We. And this was maybe last month, we laid out an entire menu of activism for all the people who are introverts, who are extroverts, where you want to stay at home and do some work. You want to get out there and march in the streets and do some work. If you are looking for a place to get an idea about, here's what I can do. Go check out that episode of One.

Monty (54:43)

Nation Invisible and what I'll have you do, if you don't mind after we get off, Andrew, I'll have you send me the link to that and I'll put that in the show notes so people can just find it and link it. And the woman's name is Eileen Lawbacher.

Andrew Seidel (54:54)

Eileen Lawbacher, Yeah. And the other thing I would encourage you to do is to continue to listen to podcasts like Monty's and to educate yourself about the threat that white Christian nationalists poses to a pluralist democracy, to a democracy that is diverse in terms of religion, race, gender. You know, it is fundamentally opposed to all of the things that we value. And you owe it to yourself to educate yourself on that. I've also got a great. I can share this link with you too. I've got a reading list that I've pulled together.

Monty (55:31)

I was just going to ask you what you thought your top like the top five books that should be reading right now. Like if they want to be in this fight, they want to know what's going on. They want to understand America better. What are the top five?

Andrew Seidel (55:44)

So the first book I usually recommend to folks as like their entree into this space is Anthea Butler's White Evangelical Racism, which I think that is a really, it's a nice easy read. She is a brilliant scholar both but rights in a way that is very accessible and it really, it gets at the white in white Christian nationalism. So that's typically the first book that I recommend to folks. I also just finished my friend Katherine Stewart's book Money Lies in God.

Monty (56:19)

I just finished it.

Andrew Seidel (56:20)

It was so good. I just had her on the podcast. The episode dropped the morning we're recording this actually and that is phenomenal and I think does a really great job of capt the anti democratic movement that we're up against and kind of a lot of what we were talking about with the sort of the billionaires allying with the Christian nationalists to promote what would be a wildly unpopular agenda that they couldn't get anywhere with without the kind of the foot soldiers. I say this with all humility. If you've not read the founding myth, I would really encourage you to do that.

Monty (57:00)

It really is great.

Andrew Seidel (57:01)

Great.

Monty (57:01)

Yeah.

Andrew Seidel (57:02)

Well, thank you. Yeah. I mean I, you know it's of all everything I've written. It is, it is certainly my favorite. And I also, you know, speaking of like whiskey and scotch and having a drink, I, I knew it was going to get picked apart and attacked quite a bit because of I'm arguing with Christian nationalists and I'm arguing about the history. So I paid two attorneys at two different times each. So four different times during the writing of that book. Book, before I even got it to my publisher, I paid them a bounty for every error, mis, cite, mistake in a citation that they could find so that I knew it would be as bulletproof as it could be coming out the other side of that. Yeah. And, and they were, they were both kind fellows and agreed to take their bounty in, in liquid form. Which is why, why that makes, that makes sense. Yes. And while I was looking for one of them, you know, I was like, okay, well I'll get you, I'll get you like a really, really nice bottle in this range because you found some stuff and you made, obviously made the book better. And I found a bottle of Irish whiskey, which is the best whiskey for those of you paying attention, obviously called Writer's Tears. And I was like, oh, well, I'm going to also get this because this is wildly appropriate. Yeah. So those three. I also, so other, some other recent ones that I have finished. I do think both Brad Onishi and, and April Joy's books are really useful because unlike a lot of the other books that are either scholarly studies of Christian nationalism or like, mine are more like, here's how you fight it and here's why it's wrong. Brad and April tell first person stories of being in that space. And to me this is like the most important thing. Show that it is possible to change minds and get out of those spaces. And it's one of the reasons I love what you're doing. Like, you are a living testament to the fact that people can grow and change their minds. And that to me is something that is just completely lost in the discourse. And I know that a lot of people feel hopeless nowadays, but, but think of all the, the people who have changed their minds. Think of, think of the Monty's and the April Grads. And, and it is definitely. And despite how things are shaping up, I actually still have a tremendous amount of hope because I do know that that kind of change is possible.

Monty (59:35)

Yeah, it's important. And it's like the only thing keeping me going is I remind myself that if someone who is as deep into it as I was can pivot and change and really just completely change my mindset, my idea of what faith is, all of those things than anyone can, because I was so in it and I was so committed to it.

Andrew Seidel (59:57)

So, and, and I, I, I think that's just Crucial and it. It with how. And I get why things seem dark and. And they are in many ways but to me that is just absolutely a light to stay focused on that people can and do change their minds. And you know, I mean I've changed my mind about a lot of things. Always for the better over the years I think as well.

Monty (60:21)

Same. So if you don't mind, before we wrap up, where can everybody find you? What's the best platforms to follow you on? And then I'd love for you to put in AU's information again as well.

Andrew Seidel (60:33)

Yeah. So AU, Americans United for Separation of Church and State is AU.org we are on all the socials often Au Org or Americans United depending on the platform. Please, please, please go if you support financially, if you can, if you can't go follow us on socials. Personally, I am Andrew L. Seidel A N D R E W L S E I D E L on all of the things I. I'm not really on X anymore. I'm having a lot of fun on Instagram these days. I'm on Blue Sky. I am on TikTok. There is footage of me dancing out of an elevator as I sued the state of Missouri for violating the separation of church and state with their anti abortion laws, which was so that exists. And yeah, I mean, you know, the books are the founding myth in American Crusade and then the podcast, which I would love if people would go subscribe as one nation Indivisible. It's definitely a work in progress, but I'm having a lot of fun. So. Yeah, I mean, I guess I think that's everything.

Monty (61:37)

Yeah. And I'll include. I'll. I'll send you a text and I'll put all that in the show notes so everybody can find it. But thank you so much for taking the time. I. I've really loved this conversation and I'm really glad that it worked out today.

Andrew Seidel (61:48)

Me too. Anytime you want to do this, let me know.

Monty (61:53)

We should do like a live on Instagram and just have like a session of just breaking this stuff down. We need that. I think that's the next step.

Andrew Seidel (62:00)

Let's do it. I'm in. And yeah, when the Supreme Court. There's a line from a movie I like because it's the actress who plays one of the daughters in Downton Abbey and then she's in what's his name? Snatch and Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.

Monty (62:21)

I don't know. I'm the wrong person to ask about anything film or TV show related okay, my apologies.

Andrew Seidel (62:27)

Anyway, it's the person who plays Lady Mary, you know, this buttoned up like prim proper. And then she's in this, this, like, you know, other movie, and she says, there's fuckery afoot. And I loved it. Yeah, and there's a lot of fuckery afoot. So, you know, when the fuckery from the courts bleeds over into the real world. If you want to ever chat, hit me up. I'm around.

Monty (62:50)

Oh, I'm so ready. I'm so ready. Thank you so much for being here and we'll be chatting again soon. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really do feel like I need to go get a drink after that episode and celebrate the Founding Fathers appropriately. But I have also told myself I'm not drinking for a few months, so I will celebrate in spirit as always. If you would like to receive these episodes ad free, you can sign up to be an accomplice at my Patreon. It's $1 a week. Those tiers are going to be changing a little bit in the coming months because of adding new Bible studies, private live streams and video events. But you can go over to patreon.com montemater the link is in the show notes and I'll see you next week on Flipping Tables.

Andrew Seidel (63:30)

Sa.