Flipping Tables: Episode 18 - The Founding Myth with Andrew Seidel

Release Date: June 4, 2025
Host: Monte Mader
Guest: Andrew Seidel, Civil Rights and Constitutional Attorney

Introduction to Andrew Seidel and the Founding Myth

Monte Mader opens the episode by introducing Andrew Seidel, a civil rights and constitutional attorney affiliated with Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Monte highlights Andrew's expertise in combating legislation that permits religious discrimination and his dedication to preserving America's foundational principles of religious liberty.

Notable Quote:

Monty (00:00): "...the Founding Myth by Andrew Seidel is one of my favorite books..."
(00:00)

Exploring The Founding Myth

Andrew delves into his book, The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American, explaining his motivation to debunk the pervasive narrative that the United States was founded as a Christian nation. He emphasizes the importance of separating church and state and providing robust arguments against Christian nationalism.

Notable Quote:

Andrew Seidel (02:07): "...it is wrong. It's fundamentally flat out wrong."
(02:07)

The Constitution's Secular Foundations

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the secular nature of the U.S. Constitution. Andrew clarifies common misconceptions, such as the inclusion of "God" in the Constitutional text, and highlights Article VI's prohibition of religious tests for public office.

Key Points:

• The Constitution begins with "We the People," asserting that governmental power derives from the populace, not from a deity.
• Article VI explicitly bans religious tests for public office, reinforcing religious pluralism.
• Claims that the Constitution is based on Christian principles are unfounded, as foundational documents are inherently secular.

Notable Quote:

Andrew Seidel (10:57): "Our Constitution was the first governing document, not to mention a God or a deity."
(10:57)

Historical Impositions of Christian Nationalism

Andrew traces the origins and impositions of Christian nationalism throughout American history, particularly during periods of national crisis. He discusses how moments like the Civil War and the Great Depression were leveraged to embed religious elements into public life, such as "In God We Trust" and the National Day of Prayer.

Key Points:

• Civil War Era: Introduction of "In God We Trust" on coins as a morale booster.
• 1950s: The rise of Christian nationalism coincided with anti-New Deal sentiments, leading to the establishment of national religious symbols and events.
• The "ratchet effect" of Christian nationalism, where each addition (e.g., prayers in public institutions) makes reversal increasingly difficult.

Notable Quote:

Andrew Seidel (17:17): "...during times of national fear and crisis, this small group of straight, white Christian men took advantage of that fear to impose their narrow religion on everybody else."
(17:17)

Contemporary Implications and Supreme Court Cases

The conversation shifts to current Supreme Court cases that could reshape the landscape of religious freedom in America. Andrew highlights cases involving religious exemptions by organizations like Catholic Charities and challenges to inclusive educational materials in schools.

Key Cases Discussed:

1. Wisconsin Unemployment System Case: Religious groups seeking exemptions from unemployment taxes, potentially undermining state systems.
2. Mahmood Case (Maryland): Parents challenging the presence of LGBTQ-themed books in classrooms, raising concerns about broader implications for educational content and inclusivity.
3. Oklahoma Charter School Case: The push to establish religious public charter schools, questioning the separation of church and state in education.

Notable Quote:

Andrew Seidel (29:03): "...these cases aren't organic. It's not Catholic Charities bringing it. It's these Christian nationalist groups bringing these cases on purpose to change the face of American law."
(29:03)

Strategies for Combating Christian Nationalism

Andrew offers actionable steps for listeners to engage in the fight against Christian nationalism. He emphasizes the importance of supporting organizations like Americans United for Separation of Church and State and encouraging individuals to run for local offices to effect change from within the system.

Key Actions:

• Join Advocacy Groups: Support organizations dedicated to maintaining the separation of church and state.
• Run for Office: Engage in local governance to influence policy and uphold secular principles.
• Educate and Mobilize: Listen to informative podcasts, read recommended literature, and participate in community activism.

Notable Quote:

Andrew Seidel (51:08): "The number one thing that I'm going to ask everybody to do is to go join Americans United for Separation of Church and State."
(51:08)

Recommended Resources

Andrew shares a curated list of books and podcasts essential for understanding and combating Christian nationalism:

1. Books:

   • White Evangelical Racism by Anthea Butler
   • Money Lies in God by Katherine Stewart
   • One Nation Indivisible by Brad Onishi
   • Preparing for War by Brad Onishi
   • American Crusade by Andrew Seidel

2. Podcasts:

   • One Nation Indivisible by Andrew Seidel

Notable Quote:

Andrew Seidel (55:44): "Anthea Butler's White Evangelical Racism is a really nice easy read."
(55:44)

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Monte and Andrew wrap up the episode by reiterating the significance of understanding America's secular foundations and the ongoing battle against the redefinition of the nation as a Christian state. They emphasize hope, highlighting the potential for personal transformation and collective action to uphold democratic and pluralistic values.

Notable Quote:

Monte (59:35): "...the only thing keeping me going is I remind myself that if someone who is as deep into it as I was can pivot and change..."
(59:35)

Connect with Andrew Seidel:

• Americans United for Separation of Church and State: AU.org
• Social Media: Instagram, Blue Sky, TikTok (@AndrewLSeidel)
• Podcast: One Nation Indivisible

Support Flipping Tables:

• Patreon: patreon.com/montemater for ad-free episodes and exclusive content.

This summary captures the core discussions of Episode 18, emphasizing the historical and contemporary challenges to religious freedom in the United States and providing listeners with resources and actionable steps to engage in preserving the secular foundation of American democracy.