28. The Everyday Man- with Jordan Waggoner

Summary

Podcast Summary: Flipping Tables - Episode 28: The Everyday Man with Jordan Waggoner

Release Date: August 13, 2025

Hosts:

• Monte Mader: Former alt-right evangelical turned progressive, exploring evangelical deconstruction, American history, current events, and biblical interpretations.
• Jordan Waggoner: Influencer and educator with a strong presence on social media, focusing on political education and activism.

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1. Introduction and Host’s Acknowledgment

Monty [00:00] begins the episode by expressing the overwhelming nature of current events and the media's role in exacerbating feelings of helplessness. She introduces Jordan Waggoner as a pivotal figure in her journey from fundamentalist conservatism to a progressive platform.

Notable Quote:

"Jordan being from rural Minnesota, walking around in his pasture talking about economics and political history was really inspiring to me and I'm excited to have him on the show today." — Monty [00:00]

2. Mutual Influence and Connection

Monty and Jordan share a mutual admiration, highlighting how Jordan’s articulate and fact-based approach on platforms like TikTok inspired Monty to amplify her voice. Jordan humbly acknowledges Monty’s impact on his own growth and the unexpected nature of their influence on each other.

Notable Quote:

"I never imagined in my life that people would listen the way that they have, but it gave the courage to understand that our voices matter." — Monty [00:00]

3. Journey into Social Media and Activism

Jordan recounts his reluctant entry into social media, initially driven by personal circumstances and encouragement from his wife. A pivotal moment was his viral video about feeling ancient, which unexpectedly garnered significant attention and followers, leading him to embrace political activism despite initial hesitations.

Notable Quote:

"I was like, oh, okay, this is a thing now, I guess, sorta. And I was like, well, I'm not going to do anything political with it." — Jordan [07:37]

4. Personal Anecdotes and Realizations

Monty shares personal experiences that made her feel "old," reinforcing the universal nature of feeling out of touch with younger generations. Both hosts emphasize how personal moments can lead to broader political and social awareness.

Notable Quote:

"I felt like I'm physically, I can' next five days." — Jordan [09:11]

5. Political Missteps and Historical Context

Jordan delves into the historical missteps of U.S. politics, tracing the economic and foreign policies from Nixon to Carter, and their long-term impacts on rural communities. He criticizes the lack of civic engagement and understanding of how policies disproportionately affect rural areas compared to urban centers.

Notable Quote:

"Our rural roots for a very long time. You know, the Reagan era hit us really hard in the dairy industry..." — Jordan [18:23]

6. Media Literacy and Information Overload

The discussion shifts to the importance of media literacy in combating misinformation. Both Monty and Jordan stress the need for individuals to critically evaluate sources, cross-reference information, and understand the biases inherent in different media outlets.

Notable Quote:

"If you ask any one of them to explain what was supposed to be on Hunter Biden's laptop or what was in Hillary's emails or what. Benghazi. Where is Benghazi? Ask any one of them. I bet you they won't be able to tell you." — Jordan [35:27]

7. Current Events and Political Accountability

Jordan critiques the handling of the Epstein list controversy, highlighting the politicization and shifting blame among political figures. He expresses frustration with the Democratic Party’s reactive rather than proactive messaging strategy, arguing that it fails to build a strong, independent political brand.

Notable Quote:

"They don't have a solid pivot point, right? Like they're pivoting, but they're all pivoting in their own directions. They're all like, they're throwing stuff at the wall to try to see what sticks." — Jordan [35:27]

8. Civic Engagement and Practical Steps

Monty and Jordan discuss actionable steps for everyday individuals to engage in politics. They emphasize local involvement, such as attending school board meetings, participating in city council discussions, and voting in all elections. Jordan also encourages participation in protests and community organizing as means to foster change and build momentum.

Notable Quote:

"Get involved at the local level. City council meetings, boring as. But go to them because that stuff affects your life more than anything." — Jordan [70:52]

9. Media Consumption and Balanced Information

The hosts highlight the degradation of balanced media consumption over the years, pointing out the transition from sources like the Wall Street Journal to highly partisan outlets. They advocate for using platforms like Wikipedia for initial research and always seeking primary sources to verify information.

Notable Quote:

"Wikipedia is a great launch point for anything you want to learn on." — Jordan [66:40]

10. Future Endeavors and Vision

In the concluding segment, Jordan shares his future plans, including collaborations with Indivisible and local Black Lives Matter groups, expanding his podcast "Let Them Eat Toast," and continuing to create educational content. Monty expresses her support and gratitude for Jordan’s contributions to her own platform.

Notable Quote:

"I've spoken at a couple others. Now I've got local Indivisible that's asking me to come out and talk to them, help educate on some of that." — Jordan [75:06]

11. Closing Remarks

Monty thanks Jordan for his participation, reiterating the importance of voicing one's thoughts and acknowledging the support from Patreon contributors. She hints at upcoming announcements and encourages listeners to stay engaged.

Notable Quote:

"Thank you for being part of my journey, helping me realize that, hey, open your mouth and say something, and people will listen sometimes." — Monty [79:12]

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Key Takeaways:

• Mutual Influence: Both hosts recognize how they influence each other's journeys toward activism and political engagement.

• Media Literacy: Emphasis on the critical evaluation of information sources and the importance of cross-referencing to combat misinformation.

• Civic Engagement: Encouraging listeners to participate in local politics, voting, and community organizing as foundational steps toward broader societal change.

• Political Accountability: Critique of both major political parties for their handling of economic policies and lack of proactive messaging.

• Future Activism: Jordan’s involvement with organizations like Indivisible underscores a commitment to grassroots movements and educational efforts.

Final Note: This episode of "Flipping Tables" offers an insightful dialogue between Monty Mader and Jordan Waggoner, exploring the intersections of personal growth, media influence, and political activism. The conversation serves as a call to action for listeners to become more informed, engaged, and proactive in shaping the future of their communities and the nation.

Transcript

[Monty]

I know that right now it often feels like you want to scream into the abyss. It feels like wildfires are popping up every day. And when Steve Bannon said that they would use the tool of media to flood the zone, they meant it and they are good at it. The point of it is to make you feel overwhelmed and distracted and make you quit trying. Sometimes you need to rant. Sometimes you need to scream, cry, or in my case, do another heavy workout so that you don't scream at the innocent bystander. Well, we're gonna do a little collective group rant today. Get a little bit more, a little bit more aggressive today. Jordan Wagoner is an influencer that. Drumroll, please. Influenced where I am today. He is someone who is a key part in why I have a platform. I came across his videos on TikTok giving very educated comebacks, very knowledgeable. That made me realize that maybe I could speak up and help this cause. Maybe I could speak up. I never imagined in my life that people would listen the way that they have, but it gave the courage to understand that our voices matter. The everyday person matters. Your voice matters. And as someone who grew up in rural Wyoming, Jordan being from rural Minnesota, walking around in his pasture talking about economics and political history was really inspiring to me and I'm excited to have him on the show today. We're going to talk about political missteps, US History, and how the everyday man and woman and child can have a voice in turning the tide today on Flipping Tables. Thank you so much for being here for another episode of Flipping Tables. Once again, just thank you so much to my Patreon supporters and to people who have been reaching out. There's a lot of changes coming up this month. I have my website's going to be launching, we're launching Merch. And just as a reminder, I'm continuing those Bible studies on crowdcast. If you're not signed up for my email list already, please do that on my Instagram using that landing page. And they will be every other Wednesday. The next one being this, the Wednesday that this is released on August 13th at 6pm Central. They have been really informative, really fun. I've really enjoyed getting to know people as well as answering questions. Those studies take place. We have the study and then we do Q&As where I get to spend a little time getting to know you and dealing with individual questions. So just a reminder that those are also available to you. Again, I'm very excited to have Jordan on today. We are going to dive in and we're going to talk shop while it feels like the house is burning. And maybe how we can start to help the house not burn down. Jordan, thank you for coming to the show. Welcome to flipping tables.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah, thanks for having me on. I'm super excited. I've been a big fan of you for a long time and kind of geeked out when I saw that, you know, we were mutuals there and glad I. Glad I finally get to actually talk to you in real time.

[Monty]

Well, and I didn't get to tell you this yet. It's in your intro. Is that you were one of the voices that made me realize how much more I should be speaking up, because I had been talking and I would periodically talk. My platform really built this year. I had 25,000 followers in January. But you were one of the voices that. I'm like this. I don't know if anyone would listen to me, but this man is out here spitting facts, telling the truth, being articulate about it while walking around like, this gorgeous property in Minnesota. Right?

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yep, Minnesota.

[Monty]

And I was. And that actually helped me realize that, you know, there was space to say something because it. Because for a while, for me, it was like, nobody's gonna listen to me. Why would someone listen to me? So you were a big part of my journey. I've been following you for a long time. Long before my platform went anywhere.

[Jordan Wagoner]

I'm. I'm super humbled. I had. I had no idea. And that. Yeah, I. I don't know what to say. That's. That's pretty cool. Cause I'm a. I'm a huge fan of yours. And then. Yeah, I. I don't know if you were already following me when I followed you, and then I just, like, realized later that we were mutuals or what.

[Monty]

Oh, yeah. I've been following you since I think last summer or last spring.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Okay.

[Monty]

One of your rant videos came across my profile, and I was like, yep.

[Jordan Wagoner]

No, that's. That's awesome. It's. It's really crazy in this space doing this. And I'm sure you're starting to kind of realize it now too. But when you start to realize that you have impacts and you touch people's lives in ways that a lot of times you'll probably never even know. But occasionally you get to find out like this, where you influence somebody to do something different or to pursue something, and it's just. It's cool and it's humbling and it's something that is. Is just a weird experience because again, yeah, Regular guy. I. I would never have assumed that anybody would be listening to me out here, you know, ranting in my past year. And now. And now people. You know, they have people reach out to me and tell me what my work means to them and stuff like that. It's still. It still feels so awkward. It's, like, humbling, and it's. And I appreciate it so much, but it's awkward because I don't know how to interact. Like, I don't know how to respond to that, you know?

[Monty]

And it's like the imposter syndrome voice gets in your head, and you're like, but wait, I'm just like, I'm just. Why are you listening to me? What's going on?

[Jordan Wagoner]

That imposter syndrome things on megaphone, that voice is. Is, you know, screaming in my ear all the time, and I'm like, well, I'm just gonna keep faking it till whatever happens happen this point. So, yeah, no, I'm excited. And it's. It's been so cool to be able to do stuff like this, get to talk to people who, you know, I look up to and people who I think have really important messages out there, people that I've been, you know, fans of. And. And so, yeah, I'm. I'm excited to be here, and I'm very flattered and humbled. Thank you.

[Monty]

Well, and one of the things, too, that resonated again with. With me and your videos is that I grew up in Wyoming, so I grew up on a cattle ranch in Wyoming, and I lived in South Dakota for a while. Just like your lifestyle, it was this meeting of circumstances and things that I just didn't see coming. Cause again, you're out walking in a pasture, and it's so smart and it's so articulate, and you're not the kind of person that someone would look at you and think that that's what you're gonna talk about, which I love. I think that that's a superpower, because I think you have a way of disarming people that maybe someone like me with a pronounced nose ring and four colors in my hair may not, but I'd love to know, like, starting out, how did this. This happen for you? How did. How did this start for you?

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah, so I. I'm a grumpy old man at heart, just, like, 90 years old with a shotgun telling people to get off my lawn. And so, like, I've been dragged kicking and screaming onto every new social media platform since MySpace, right? Like, I had MySpace.

[Monty]

I love MySpace.

[Jordan Wagoner]

I would still be.

[Monty]

Does. Tom loved us.

[Jordan Wagoner]

I know, I know. And this is why. This is why we're really in the reality we deserve, if we think about it, because you look like we abandoned Tom for Zuckerberg and like, this is.

[Monty]

We did. We cheated on Tom.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yep. And. And this is. This is just our cosmic karma coming back around. Like, everything is just, you know, we had a guy who gave us a great social media platform, just wanted us to be happy, you know, the. The top eight or whatever was a little toxic. But Aside from that, MySpace was a solid platform and I loved that I'd still be like the lone person on MySpace today if that's. Was. Had a girlfriend back then, dragged me kicking and screaming onto Facebook, and then that's where I was home. And basically just like, used Facebook for Marketplace because they ruined Craigslist.

[Monty]

Unfortunately, that's the other thing that we lost. Yeah, we cheated on Tom, we lost Craigslist, and then Harambe was killed, and that's when we went into the bad place.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yep, it is. It is. And. And so, yeah, so it was just. It was Marketplace and, you know, writing paragraphs to strangers on the Internet, telling them why they were stupid that nobody was ever going to read. And it wasn't. Wasn't healthy for me. It wasn't healthy, you know, for anybody else. It was just, you know, Internet fighting isn't. Isn't great. And my current wife would just get so annoyed with it, and she would. She was on Tick Tock then at this point and would be like, saving all these videos to show me because, like, I'm not getting Tick Tock. You can. So she would sit there and I'd be watching all these videos that she'd already watched on her phone. So she had, like, no phone to play on while I'm going through all these videos. And she's like, you are putting this on your phone so I can send this to you so I don't have to do this anymore. And so I kind of got dragged kicking and screaming onto this platform because she wanted to share these videos with me. She's like, you know, you should. You should maybe just make videos instead of arguing with people in the comments on Facebook. I'm like, yeah, I don't know that I want to do that. And again, because I'm like, who's gonna listen to me now? I'm just gonna be some guy ranting, you know, out here in the pasture and. But I had one moment, we were sitting at the bar. It was an Applebee's of all places because, you know, I live in the middle of nowhere.

[Monty]

Yeah, I love that it's Applebee's. I'm like, this is my childhood right now.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yep. Sitting at the bar at Applebee's, just as cliche as fuck. And I looked at that we ID thing on the wall and I, I was like, oh, shit. In a couple months, people who weren't alive for 911 are going to be able to sit here at the bar and drink with me. And I just like instantly turned into Mr. Miyagi, just like a thousand years old. I felt. And I'm like, I'm like, I need to express this feeling that I have right now. I've had three moments in my life that just like really felt like they aged me. Like where I felt like I was getting older for the first time. One after, after my divorce, I was looking for a, a roommate or something to help share the expenses and watch the dogs while I stayed out too late drinking every night. And I, I interviewed this, she was like 20, this 20 year old girl was looking for a room and I was talking about the Internet. And again, out in the country, poor Internet service. But I had, I had this service that like, it wasn't as bad as Dial up. And I told her that, I'm like, it's not great, but it's not as bad as Dial up. And she goes, what's Dial up? And like, oh, ow. Okay, okay. This isn't gonna work out. I'm sorry, you need to leave right now. And, and then we had, I, I, we have a rodeo right down the road and I used to go and ride the mechanical bull in their competition and I always placed like top, top three on my buddy and I. And then this one year we went and the day after it looked like we'd been hit by a truck. Like we had bruises and stuff everywhere. I'm like, this has never happened to me before where now I feel like I'm like, I'm physically, I can' next five days. And then, and then that moment when I was sitting at the bar looking at that, that we ID side and realized that, you know, this pivotal moment in my life is something that it's not even like kids, you know, don't have conscious memory of it. Like people, full blown adults who can drink at a bar with me just weren't alive for it, period. And that just made me feel so old. I'm like, I need to share that with somebody. I did a video about that and I was just like, what makes you feel ancient was kind of how I, I opened it up and that was all that was, the whole video. It would have done just as well. I don't think anybody watched the rest of the video, but I was like, I went into, you know, because this is what's making me feel ancient. But everybody started stitching that video over and over and over again and it blew up. I got like 10,000 followers overnight off this one video. And I was like, oh, okay, this is a thing now, I guess, sorta. And I was like, well, I'm not going to do anything political with it. I live in a very rural red area and I don't want to, I don't want to be dealing with that with my neighbors. And some lady comes on and she stitches it and she goes, what makes me feel old is kids today don't want to work. And that's where my attempt at not making it political stopped. And I next video was a call out video on this, on this lady. And then that one blew up and I was like, well, I guess I'm just gonna ride this out for as long as it goes. And I'm still riding it.

[Monty]

We're still riding it. And speaking of like the ancient thing, I have two moments that. Two moments that really hurt me, hurt my heart. I was in the grocery store and I heard this really young girl say something about people born in the 1900s.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yep.

[Monty]

And I was like, I remember because I was, I was dressed ostentatiously. Ostentatiously. Like I think I had a fur on. And I'm like, I'm a 90 year old woman. Like, oh my God. And then one time I was buying.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Costume jewelry and everything.

[Monty]

Exactly. And that's how I dress. That's how I exist in life. But I was like, that makes me feel extra old, what I'm wearing. And then same thing. Also at the grocery store, but I was checking out. I was buying a bottle of wine and I hand the guy my card. He asked me for an id, give it to him. And it was like really fast. And I was like, that was fast. And he's like, oh, I only have to see if there's a one at the front. And then I know you're good. And I was like, people with a 2 in the front can drink now. Oh my God. Like. And that was like, my niece was born in 2003. And I'm like, what is happening right now? But so how did you. Because you're, you're definitely on the wave still. How did you, so you're, you're a white guy living in a rural area, mentioned being in a red area. You remind me so much of all the people I grew up with. Like my whole family, rodeos, they're all ranchers and farmers. How did you end up like in this very political space, in kind of the more progressive space? Like, very educated about it, very articulate and a little bit unusual for your environment.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah, so, I mean I, I had an, A very, I guess, unusual childhood, kind of diverse childhood. My parents got divorced when I was really young. And then when I was about 7, my mom moved me to south Florida. So like I would spend my life between rural Minnesota and Miami basically. And, and so down there I got a lot of perspective experiences, you know, definitely a more diverse area than east central Minnesota. I got to kind of experience at, at the same exact time being upper middle class with the guy that my mom was dating and get to kind of experience, you know, on the first fringe of kind of, you know, how the rich and famous live.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Because of the people that he was around and worked for and, and then also come to where, you know, I, I had a friend growing up who ran a hose through his window for the shower in the summer and they just didn't have water in the winter type of thing. And, and you know, and then I went through, I graduated into the Great Recession and my dad, who had a. Okay, decent excavating company enough to just, you know, live a middle class lifestyle, you know, that went bankrupt. The only reason we didn't lose our house at the time was because the banks had foreclosed on so many houses. Somebody, you know, hang a little bit here right now was better than a house sitting empty and getting the copper robbed out of it.

[Monty]

Wow.

[Jordan Wagoner]

And so, you know, I was working three or four jobs while going to high school and I just, I've gotten, I lived a lot in a very short period of time. Experienced a lot of life in a very short period of time. And then I went to college down in the south to kind of, I needed to get away from, you know. Where did you go to all the struggles here? A little Bristol, Virginia. Right on the border of Bristol, Tennessee. I have a college called Virginia Intermont. I got scholarship to ride horses there for that.

[Monty]

I know where that is.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Do you?

[Monty]

Yeah, I went to school in Lynchburg.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Oh, no.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Where'd you go to school?

[Monty]

I went to Liberty.

[Jordan Wagoner]

You know what, that makes a lot of sense actually with your content now.

[Monty]

It does, doesn't it? All, all the context clues are now making sense.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah. Coming together. So. Yeah. So growing up, I mean, I was.

[Monty]

Always.

[Jordan Wagoner]

I don't like being wrong about stuff. And there's only two ways you can make arguments and not be wrong. And one is just to be too stupid to know you're wrong, or the other is to be educated enough to not be wrong. And so I was always more left leaning simply because, you know, facts and, and science and statistics have a well known liberal bias. But I, I was definitely more conservative when I was younger. Just kind of the, the people I grew up around and I had kind of, and I'm going to use this, this is going to come back to bite me the way that I'm going to say this. And I was sort of the minority in like school and the, the communities that I was in in South Florida because it was very heavy, you know, Cuban, Hispanic communities around there. So I kind of had that feeling of being the, the odd person out where I felt sort of like not accepted it in my own home country type of thing. And so I had a little bit more conservative views of immigration and that sort of stuff at the time. And then as I got older and kind of realized, you know, the realities of how, how our immigration system is set up, how our country, you know, treats and, and actively systematically disenfranchise minorities, it got really easy to just, all right, if the reality doesn't reflect my worldview, then my worldview needs to change. And so I've definitely gotten more progressive as I got older.

[Monty]

So.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah. But I, you know, I hated Bush. I was never, I was never that far right. And I think a lot of it just had to do with the fact that growing up in those two different places and Minnesota, even in rural areas, stayed more Democratic leaning a lot longer than any other state. Our Democratic Party here isn't actually the Democratic Party. It's the dfl, Democratic Farmer Labor Party.

[Monty]

Okay.

[Jordan Wagoner]

And we had very strong rural roots for a very long time. You know, the Reagan era hit us really hard in the dairy industry and stuff out here. All the family farms, my family farm had a dairy industry or a dairy farm that we lost during the Reagan years because of his ag policy and economic policy. And so it took him longer to forget out here. And so I didn't have quite the pressure, that conservative hardline red pressure that you get in the South.

[Monty]

Yeah. Cause even in Wyoming they, you know, I remember growing up and granted it's mostly strict like cattle ranching, like grassland grazing, but I remember they were very like pro Reagan. Reagan's amazing. He was like this God among Republican presidents. And then I grew up very, very alt, right. Like, about as far without the swastikas as you can go. Like, my family used to stockpile arms in case the government attacked us. And they would also, in the Christian fundamentalist side of things, they would say, well, the Democrats are gonna come and they're gonna bring the military to your door and ask you if you believe in God and it's your job to say yes and die for Jesus. Like it was this whole thing. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And so. And I was only allowed to go to Christian conservative schools. The, My elementary school that I went to was founded by my grandfather. It was called Heritage Christian School after the Heritage Foundation.

[Jordan Wagoner]

God. Yeah, Anything with heritage in the name now immediately, like, oh, no.

[Monty]

But you grow up with these ideas, like, based in these environments. And what's interesting to me is now that I grow up and I learn about Reagan, like, really learn about Reagan. The more I learn, the more I'm like, how did these people support him at all? But they just did not see the connection between the economic hardship they encountered in the 80s and 90s and Reagan. They blamed Clinton because a lot of those policies really impacted in the 90s.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Well, and this, and this is what, what happens and why so many people. This is why I get so frustrated with the lack of civic engagement, civic knowledge, especially with people, because these policies affect us out here way more than they affect people in the cities. You know, these big blue cities are less affected by terrible Republican policies than. Than the people that vote red.

[Monty]

You know, it's the conservative constituent that takes the brunt of that impact. Like, same with, like, what we just saw in the big ugly bill. The snap benefits, the rollback of Medicaid, Medicare, these agricultural subsidies disappearing, and even the rollbacks from the EPA are going to enormously impact the rural communities way more than, like New York City.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Well, absolutely. And what. And what people out here, because you live, you understand the rugged individualism of people who live out in rural communities and all of this, but they don't. They don't understand economies of scale and understand how dependent we are on the rest of the country to even exist. I mean, all of the rural south would probably not have power to this day if it wasn't for, you know, the tva, for the federal government coming in and using money taken from large cities to electrify the south and give them jobs. And that's the same thing. Our roads and our bridges and Everything. We don't have the populations out here to support those things on our own. We need, and granted, obviously big cities need food to come from somewhere and that's, that's kind of the trade off. Right. You have to have both. But not understanding that and, and being like, oh, we, they just, they view everybody else as the enemy. And I, I struggle, I struggle to deal with the stupid on a lot of days because I'm like, I understand how lucky I am to have the property that I have in the space I have and the Internet to my house. That I can do this with you right now. And none of that would happen without programs that come from the top.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

And, and it was frustrating too. It's like every single time that we go through these swings, it's a Republican up, which is what happened under Nixon getting us off the Bretton woods system. Obviously his Southern Strategy really flipped a lot of things on its head. But his, his economic policies, his foreign, or his, his foreign policy, especially to do with the Middle east and our foreign policy going long, long ways back on that had put us into a very bad predicament that Carter inherited. Right?

[Monty]

Yep.

[Jordan Wagoner]

And Carter started putting a lot of policies in place that hurt at the time. Like interest rates are going to have to go up if you want inflation to come down. You can't have low interest rates and low inflation. Those, those two things don't go together. So sure, people were bitching, but nobody wants to pay more for a mortgage or a car loan or anything like that. And I understand that. It's like this is, we got ourselves into a bad situation because, you know, you voted for a crook who didn't know how to handle the economy and, and didn't care. Right. And so now we've got to take our medicine and those high interest rates are part of our medicine. You know, it's good foreign policy takes time. You can't go in and muscle your way into everything and expect that foreign policy to hold up long term. And we've seen this, that every country that we have problems with right now, the drugs from Central and South America, you know, the terrorism in the Middle east, that's, that's us meddling and stuff with bad, quick solving foreign policy that has not panned out and was not sustainable long term. And so that's what Carter was working on doing too. Like, we're not going to go in with military intervention for these hostage negotiations. We're going to try to bring some sort of peace and stability. And that takes time. That takes Negotiation. And they're like, oh, that's weak, because, you know, America. Fuck. Yeah. And you immediately pictured the bald eagle.

[Monty]

With the, with the guns, didn't you?

[Jordan Wagoner]

Oh, yeah, yep, yep. Machine gun, bald eagle, you know, tank top with Arnold Schwarzenegger arms. And so his policies were working at that point. And then obviously Reagan did a bunch of shady shit, sabotage the, the hostage release and all that kind of stuff.

[Monty]

Which is, which is so crazy. Just that backdoor deal of him, him reaching out to a foreign power. Basically his campaign saying, just don't release them until after the election and I will give you more of what you want.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah, yeah, don't release American hostages until after the election. A person who became American president did that by keeping Americans hostage in Iran. So there was, there was a lot that kind of led into Carter's loss there. But then Reagan benefited from all of the hard work that Carter had done with those policies and all of the negative publicity. He got through that. And then people are like, oh, he's elected and suddenly the job market's getting a little better. And people don't realize that it's usually. Unless you go start slapping tariffs on every thing you see, usually your economic policy doesn't start affecting the actual economy for eight months to a year after your president at least, right? Yeah, at least. But Americans are stupid, you know, and they're just like, oh, it's good now. And so they, they held the line with Reagan. Reagan's policies, you know, eventually ended up us. But again, at that point, you could start blaming it on Clinton. You could start blaming it on. Well, I don't know why they never blamed it on Bush either.

[Monty]

Right. They didn't plan it on hw and it was affecting everybody then, but there was no conversation about blaming him either. And, and it's the same thing. It's the exact same pattern that we're seeing now where if there's a problem that comes up, it's somehow traced back to Obama or Biden or Hillary did something that she didn't have the power to do because she was never in a position to manipulate that particular thing. But there's never a reflection about HW or Dubya or the fact of, like, the really horrible impact Trump's first administration had on the economy, you know, and there's just no thought, no thought to that.

[Jordan Wagoner]

And you talk about, you just talk how. And this is where the Democrats biggest failure is messaging 100. The fact that they are always just playing response rather than. Than than being aggressive with their own messaging and building their own brand. Because if we're talking between our two parties and both of them suck, like I'm not sitting here peddling, you know, the Democrats are the greatest things in sliced bread. They're not, they're just the less shitty option between them. But if we're talking between the two, if we're going to say that one party is the party of the economy, it's, it's the Democrats by leaps and bounds, by every single metric they on spending, better. On the debt, better. On revenue, better. On gdp, better. On unemployment, like every single metric. You want to go look at that, that, that's an economic indicator that we, you know, value as, as our great capitalist society. Democrats do better on it by leaps and bounds. And Republicans have managed to sell themselves as the party of the economy and.

[Monty]

Democrats have just left the fiscal responsibility when they outspend, they outspend every Democratic president like by a landslide. We've got, you know, Tangerine Palpatine right now wants to build a $200 million gold plated ballroom. Like, are you joking? And also, you know, one of the things that you know, like I've been really working on because I also get frustrated. I get frustrated with the lack of intention to try to learn because I used to be one of them. I understand the indoctrination, I understand the grooming because I used to be you. I used to walk around with a Confederate keychain on my backpack because the Civil War was about states rights. I get it. But it's the absolute lack of curiosity or the desire for self discovery or truth or the willingness to change your worldview at all. When you come in contact with new information, when you learn something new, it doesn't mean that you're dumb. It means you didn't know the information, but you're choosing to act like an idiot if you now don't apply that information. Because one of the things I've been working really hard to try to connect with my family members and my friends who are more conservative leaning and try to talk to them and try to like have these educated again people that are actually willing to have a conversation, not people that are just hateful and screaming, but I tell them all the time, I'm like, there's only been outside of right now, which we just saw the biggest wealth transfer from the lowest 10% of people to the top 1% in history. There's only been two other times that Republicans have controlled all three branches. The first time led us into the Great Depression. The second time led US into the Great Recession. And if you track through time, these policies, they always devastate the economy because they only benefit the rich. And people just can't hear it. They can't hear it. They won't see it.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Like, well, and this is, this is where I think and I, one of the criticisms I get the most often is obviously my content can be a bit abrasive. And I'll, you know, I, I, I go out with the intention of educating, but not educating the person that I'm responding to. Like, as far as I'm concerned, those people are lost causes. If you're out here spewing easily debunked propaganda on the Internet or you're following those people, like the people who follow, you know, the older millennial or Charlie Kirk or any of these people, like, you have, you have made an identity decision and you're, that's, they're not curious. They don't care what the facts are. They're not going to care what the facts are because they have made an identity decision. They want to be a part of a club. That's all MAGA is, is a club. Right. It's a club for fucking losers and incels who just don't belong anywhere else. And they, this was an easy thing. I put on a red hat and just say, daddy, Trump is always right, no matter what, you know, no matter what reality is. And I get to be a part of a group of people who accept.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

And that's, that's all it is. And, and this is why trying to explain to these people in any type of logical way, have an educated conversation with them is pointless. Like, they want to debate. They don't want to debate. They just want to have the opportunity to be justified in their beliefs.

[Monty]

Yeah. They want to have a spectacle.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Absolutely. And so I'm not giving them that. I, my whole intent is to shame them into shutting the fuck up. Like, I don't want you to feel, I want you to feel embarrassed that you're a part of this club. Right.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Like, that's, that's what you should feel. And then the educational part comes for everybody else who's listening from the outside.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Using them as an example to hopefully give people information that they can help, you know, grow and learn from. And so when people criticize, you know, me attacking and shaming these, these mega people who are out here just spreading racist propaganda or classist propaganda or just outright lies, I don't give a fuck if they learn anything. I just want them to be too Embarrassed to ever talk on the Internet again. And I'm usually pretty good at making that happen.

[Monty]

Yeah. Like, a lot of times I've watched my videos, and I'm like, oh, this is my internal monologue. And one of the things that, like. And it's a very. It is kind of a harsh line to draw where it's like, I'm not worried about converting you because I don't think you're convertible. Like, I don't. You're. You're either too programmed or too stubborn or too stupid at this point. And I really had. I had a hard time with that thought. Like, I would wrestle with it, and I felt some shame and guilt around it because, again, I used to be like, obviously I wasn't MAGA because I was out before Trump, but Trump really, like, solidified my. I'm never touching the Republican Party ever again. Because the first time I voted was, I think, Romney. Obama.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah.

[Monty]

And I voted for Romney. And that was like, my. I was still kind of in this. I was deconstructing religion, like, Christian nationalism, but I was still very, like, I really believed in, like, conservative policies and fiscal responsibility and economics. Didn't understand all that yet. I was learning. But when Trump showed up on the scene, I was like, no, absolutely not. Like, you can't tell me I can't grow up in Sunday school my whole life talking about love and kindness and treating the stranger with love and being faithful to your spouse and, like, all these things. And then you guys jump on the ship with this, like, literally the most.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Deplorable human embodiment of the. Of the seven greatest. Seven deadliest sins.

[Monty]

Exactly. It was like, has he. Bro, I think he's broken every commandment, like, all of them.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Y.

[Monty]

But for me, the. The big turning point for me, where I think I've started to accept that there are just some people that are not going. They're not. They're. It's not that they're not savable. It's that they won't be saved because they don't want to be. Is with this new debacle with the Epstein list, the pivot that they have made has been shocking to me. I really thought. And for granted, for some people, this has been the straw that broke the camel's back. Good for you. Start learning. Get educated. Welcome aboard. But for the people that are just like, well, he must not be on it. There must not be a list. Obama made it. Ghislaine Maxwell's a victim. I'm like, what? I would love your Thoughts on that like that, how that whole saga has played out?

[Jordan Wagoner]

No, no, it's wild. And I, I mean, I, I did expect this. I still think that there's enough of a turn. I do think that this is going to be the beginning of his undoing. At this point, the Epstein list is still. They don't have a solid pivot point, right? Like they're pivoting, but they're all pivoting in their own directions. They're all like, they're throwing stuff at the wall to try to see what sticks. And nothing's going to stick here because this is a really easy, straight to the point, tagline thing that we have really lacked on the left. As far as, you know, they're, they always have the Benghazi, Hunter Biden's laptop, Hillary's emails. Just the one thing that they can say one or two words and it automatically associates with some sort of corruption or some sort of thing. And they don't even need to understand you. You ask any one of them to explain what was supposed to be on Hunter Biden's laptop or what was in Hillary's emails or what. Benghazi. Where is Benghazi? Ask any one of them. I bet you they won't be able to tell you. But, but it was, it was one of those associations. And they had spent so much time associating the Epstein list with bad. And because they were believing that, oh, it's gonna unearth all these Democrats. And I'm sure, I'm sure there's Democrats on there.

[Monty]

And whoever's on there, lock them up.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Send them every single one. You know what? And like, they keep bringing up Bill Clinton. I was like, the motherfucker's getting old. You better hurry up and release it then, because if you want to see him go to prison, you need to get on it, you know, and, and so they had, had, they already have that association in their head of Epstein list. Bad, corruption, Democrats, all of that, Democrats. And now. And Trump ran on. I am, I'm going to release this. I'm going to, you know, drain the swamp, show the corruption, send all these people to prison. And now, now he's not doing it. And so we have that ability now to just be like Epstein, let's list every time. Just like they had Hillary's emails and Benghazi and Hunter's laptop and all the other. But this one's actually real because they bought into it. They, they don't know where to pivot from. And it's making them unravel and so that's why they're like, it must be Obama wrote it, but we're not releasing it. But he didn't release it because Obama's in it. And like, all that kind of. I, I think that it's, it's going to break them to the point where they just kind of slink into the background. I'm hoping, I don't know. But it is, it is crazy. Like, they're not going to admit that they were wrong or that they got going to. Yeah. I think that they're just going to, you know, go back to pretend that they don't care about politics anymore like they used to. You know, these always used to be.

[Monty]

I'm not really interested in politics.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah. But that's fine. Fine by me.

[Monty]

But I mean, I think, you know, I am grateful for it because I do think that there is power in that ability to be like, like you said, Epstein, list all you have to say. And even if they try to defend it, one or two questions disintegrates it. And it's this, it's this very powerful point of. You are supporting a pedophile.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yep.

[Monty]

You have absolutely no moral high ground whatsoever. And in the face of, like, because most of them are Christian nationalists, it's like you are not only like disgracing, like, your religion, you're taking away its power because people are seeing you for exactly what you are, exactly what you believe in and exactly what you support, and they'll never trust you again. And we're gonna take a brief break to thank our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by ground news. 1 in 3 female active duty military members face sexual assault and harassment in the military, which is often referred to as MST or military sexual trauma. And those are just the reported cases, but it's significantly higher compared to the one in five for the general population. And it's notoriously hard to get convictions, especially when the attacker is also a Service Member. In 2023, the Department of Defense concluded that sexual harassment is a leading factor affecting the unit climate. On sexual assault. The majority of victims were harassed by someone in their chain of command. Veterans from all eras of service, from World War II to those who served more recently in Iraq and Afghanistan, have reported experiencing military sexual trauma. And those assaults, especially repeated ones lead can end in pregnancy. When I checked my ground news headlines and saw that the Department of Veteran affairs is now removing abortion protection for veterans and active service members, my heart sank. In 2022, Biden established protections that would allow service members to have abortions in cases of rape and incest, as well as for the health and safety of the mother. And now those protections will be taken away. Especially for women who serve in the military, get attacked by their own ranks and receive no justice. This seems unspeakably cruel. This, coupled with massive budget cuts to the VA as a whole, is another massive blow to what should be a growing, not shrinking, veteran care. As I have followed this story on Ground News, I've been I've not been surprised to see that the headlines vary pretty wildly, from no nuance taxpayers shouldn't pay for vet abortions to larger picture discussions of reproductive care for vets and the budget cuts in the va. In the overwhelm of information, Being able to contrast sources on Ground News and immediately see their factuality rating and who owns them helps me get information from multiple sources that I can rely on and helps me weed out the ones I can't rely on. Subscribe today using the link groundnews.com tables for 40% off their vantage plan and stay informed with a resource that you can trust. This episode is also brought to you by Intravenous Solutions, Nashville's premier IV therapy and wellness center. IV therapy can help you recover quicker from heavy workouts or illness, treat the symptoms of dehydration and improve sleep and give you healthy glowing skin. Being on stage several times a week, using my voice constantly and dealing with some chronic health conditions, I can say that their ozone therapy and their IV treatments keep me on my feet and are a lifesaver. Dr. Allen and his staff are kind and knowledgeable and use up to date state of the art groundbreaking practices to keep you healthy and moving freely. They also offer vitamin shots, oxygen therapy, Botox, filler, weight management and mobile services. With four locations in Nashville, Hendersonville, Franklin and their brand new location in Second Avenue on the Baker's Alley Hotel by Hilton. It is so easy to get high quality care all week. So come party in Nashville, come say hi to me and beat the hangover at Intravenous Solutions. Give the code Monty10 at checkout for a 10% discount on services and and.

[Jordan Wagoner]

This was and and being anti pedophile which you know by all means we should all be anti pedophile. But like like being anti pedophile in a murder fantasy kind of way was like their entire personality, right? Like I can't tell you how many times I've seen like pedophiles lives don't matter bumper stickers or or they use.

[Monty]

It so often to attack the LGBTQ community Who, like. Like, way less incidents of grooming and sexual assault than, like, the straight male community, but they skip that. And they're justifying their hatred of the gay community by saying they're protecting kids. And now we have this in, like, this stark juxtaposition of, like, oh, it's not about the kids. Like, let's be so for real right now, because we're talking about a man who exploited 1,000 or more young girls, and now you're calling his girlfriend, who didn't just recruit the women for him, but actively participated in assaulting them. You're saying she's a victim, but you don't think Cassie with Diddy was a victim. It's interesting how that doesn't seem to line up for you. Yeah, it's tough, but I'm thankful for it because I do think that this is the unraveling. And I have seen a lot of people. It really snapped something in their brain where they are like, oh, wait, this is all the corruption you claimed all these other people were doing. And now they're gonna ask all these questions, and now they're gonna start. I've had several people in the last few weeks message me or join my patreon and say, hey, I'm 40 years old. I'm 50 years old. I'm in my 70s. I have been a Republican my whole life. I have been this my whole life. I see it now. Where do I start? And that's a great place to be. It's a great place to be.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Absolutely awesome. And again, back to the messaging part is we need to keep on this. There is not. We can't allow the pivot. And this is what they're trying to do. And I've seen it too. Like, all the places they're trying to pivot is, oh, Obama and Biden wrote it. Oh, well, Biden's actually the pedophile, and they're trying to break up, like, the sniffing thing again that they were all on there for a while for. And, like, you can't. You can't bring this back. Like, you can't. And then, oh, well, why didn't Biden release the list? And I don't even ever justify any of those with an answer. I mean, because obviously the answer was it was an active investigation and the evidence was sealed while Biden was president.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yep. Like, why didn't Trump release it? He ran on releasing it. If he wasn't on the list, he'd release it to prove that he's not on the list and to Prove that all these other people are on the list like he said he was, but he didn't do that. So clearly he's on the list and he's a pedophile. And you know it well.

[Monty]

And it's like, Pam Bondi was the AG while Epstein was running the island in Florida. She was the AG of Florida. She knew what was going on. She honored the sweetheart deal that he had. And also now we have this paper trail. So not only do we have, like, the. The public break with Elon Musk, like, where he drops the bomb on Twitter, but the Department of Justice. Pam. Bonnie first acknowledges she has the list in February. Then in May, the Department of justice lets Trump know he's in the list. Now, then they said the list is fake, and then now we have that the FBI redacted his name from the files. Like, it's. It could not be.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Which is just gonna be a black sheet at that point with, like, one word. Yeah.

[Monty]

And we have. We have eyewitnesses, and we have victims who have identified him. Like, it could not be more clear. And there's just no way that I'm like, if any Democrat did this, y' all would be on this so fast. You would be tearing shit down. But because it's your guy, you're letting it slide, which tells me everything about what you value and don't value.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Well, and the. The other thing that really is giving this the power is the fact that it. This is now giving Democrats in the minority at the moment so much leverage because they can keep putting these bills forward and be like, you now have to vote against this if you want to protect your boy. And that means you're voting to protect pedophiles. And there's just no good way to explain that. And this is getting a lot. This is really putting a bad stink on a lot of Republican senators and congressmen who are not willing to, you know, cross the line. I am a little surprised that they haven't leveraged this to just unseat Trump at this point. I feel like he's. I've always. I thought that he would have gotten, you know, JFK or something a long time ago just because he's. He's too unpredictable. I fully expected the Republicans to leverage him to get, you know, the power that they want and then find a way to remove him and toss him aside simply because.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Because he's not. He's not predictable. He's not. He doesn't know what he's thinking. He's, you know, seriously got Dementia. Another thing I just, they talk about Biden having dementia. We're like, yeah, we can kind of see he's not cognitively all there. And this is why people who are 190 years old probably shouldn't be president.

[Monty]

There should be an upper age limit.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Like you're 65, you can't fly commercial airplane anymore. Maybe you shouldn't be piloting the country would be a, a decent new rule.

[Monty]

That's the new rule. Term limits for everyone. And you can't be over 65 when take office in presidency. Yeah, you can leave after 65, but you can't start there.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yo, I, I, I'd be totally okay with that. But yeah, like all that, like they were, they were picking on, on Biden's mental competency. And I'm like, that's a, that's a fair thing. But you can't look at that and then listen to this man rant about electric boats and sharks and, and, and be like, oh yeah, this guy is clearly sharp as attack.

[Monty]

They're eating the cats, they're eating the dogs. Well, and if you look at any of his posts from Truth Social, it's just like, what am I reading here? What is going on? And it's getting, and we get, they, I think one of the mistakes and again, I have so many beefs with the Democratic Party, like, so many. But one of the things is they're always on defense and they're, you're not, you're not only allowing them to pull you into arguments that aren't worth having, but they've constantly got you backpedaling because, and a lot of it around this idea, even with Biden. And they've allowed this dichotomy to exist where, oh, if you don't support Trump, then you're in love with Biden. I didn't like Biden as a president. I thought he was too old. I don't have an issue with him personally. But I'm like, I don't think you're a good president. I'm not in love with what you're doing. It's a very much a lesser of two evils thing. And he, I think that they massively mishandled the election if he's declining at a pretty rapid rate, which would have given you probably a little bit more foresight. You probably knew a year before, a year and a half, maybe two step down, boom, first female president here was.

[Jordan Wagoner]

My frustration with it at all was the fact that he ran in 2020, period. Yeah, because 2020 was a pivotal moment where we could have had basically anyone we wanted as president because people were willing to vote for a flaming bag of dog over Donald Trump in 2020.

[Monty]

Yep.

[Jordan Wagoner]

And so that's what they gave us basically. And I, I'm being a little harsh on Biden. I just think that Biden knew that he was going to, you know, be older than Moses by the time he had to run for reelection.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

So even if he was, was mentally competent in 2020, there was a good chance that he still wouldn't even be alive by 2020.

[Monty]

And I think they should have came in with the understanding that he was not going to rerun. Like maybe he was the man for the moment and then step aside.

[Jordan Wagoner]

But I disagree with that too, because the, the thing is, an incumbent advantage is huge. Incumbents win their reelections 80% of the time. So squandering that when we, everybody knew Trump was going to run again, we knew that this was going to be the third Trump matchup up. We needed somebody who was going to be popular enough and competent enough and mentally capable enough to have that incumbent advantage and then we wouldn't be here.

[Monty]

Yeah, that's true.

[Jordan Wagoner]

That's my, that's my biggest beef. It's, it's that he ran it all in 2020 and it should have been, he should have stepped aside, said my times passed. If he wanted to run, 2016 was his time. If Biden wanted to run, he should have ran in 2016 right off.

[Monty]

Because then we, we might not have had a first Trump term because Hillary was, she's just not, one, you have the disadvantage of being a woman, but two, she's not likable. She's not one of those people. She is not warm and cuddly and fuzzy. She's smart as hell, but she's not someone that a lot of people like, even progressive and left leaning people don't like her. And that's, that's, that is what it is. Who would you have liked to see run in 2020?

[Jordan Wagoner]

In 2020? Well, that's hard. You know, I don't know. I, we never really had the option. I mean, I know Bernie ran again and I'm, I'm a Bernie Stan all day, every day. But I even, even at that time thought that Bernie was too old to be running and I wanted, I wanted somebody a little bit younger and more progressive. Pete, Buddha, Judge. I think if he had stuck in it a little longer, I don't, I feel like he is very much a status quo Democrat, very much like not My particular choice, but I feel like he was the only young person stepping up at that time. Yeah, that at least. At least would be able to start shifting the window towards palatability, towards younger, progressive, less traditional candidates.

[Monty]

You know, now we've got Zoran Momdani.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah, exactly. So I think I was just wanting, you know, anybody who is young enough to be a Solid contender in 2024 and Shift that window back from. We don't need any more fucking boomers running for president. Let's. Let's get somebody who's a more.

[Monty]

We don't need someone with one foot in a nursing home.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Exactly.

[Monty]

This is getting out of control.

[Jordan Wagoner]

This is the thing is every single president in my lifetime. So for the 35 years, every single president has been a boomer, except for Biden, who's silent Jen, who's even older. Yeah, so. So, like, like, it was just. It was that. That bothered me so much as we've had, you know, Biden is older than Bill Clinton. Like, that's. That's insane to me. But Bill Clinton. Every. Every single one. You know, Bill Clinton was obviously younger, but, like, that 40 to 55 range is kind of the sweet spot, I feel like, for somebody running for office.

[Monty]

And what's the exact median age in America? Is it. It's like, what, 36, 37, I think.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah.

[Monty]

Like, upper 30s is the. Is like the largest population, and we have absolutely no representation for anyone in 20s, 30s, 40s. Really? Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

No, honestly. You know who I think would have been a cool option to run for president in 2016 would have been Tammy Duckworth.

[Monty]

Oh, she's awesome. I am.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Like, how, how, how cool? Because you could have knocked off, you want first. She. She would have been like, like disabled vet, you know, woman. I forget what her heritage is, but she's Asian American.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

You would have had, you know, the whole gambit there.

[Monty]

And she's so smart and she's so likable, like, exactly.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Love.

[Monty]

I love her. I got to meet her very briefly at one of the veteran protests in D.C. and she is amazing.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah, I. I haven't had the privilege yet, but I. I would love to. I'd love to meet her, I thought. But when Biden was picking a vice president, I thought that she should have been the pick that was like, my top of the list. I'm like, how can you miss this one? Like, it's right there. You've got. You've got a draft dodger, and then you've got a woman who literally lost her legs in Combat, like, you've got that. That veteran vote, you've got the woman vote. You've got all the things. She checked every box that we needed. So I didn't understand why I didn't pick her. I thought that she would have been fine, top of the ticket. It. Especially in 2020. Because, like I said, I think anybody could have won in 2020.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Because again, nobody loved Biden. Right. Nobody was excited to go thing ever.

[Monty]

It was just kind of like, oh, here we go again, but we got to stop the other guy.

[Jordan Wagoner]

So you could have put. We could have used that as our opportunity. Biden could have stepped aside and allowed a more competitive primary among, you know, a wider field and let it be what it was going to be. But. But that didn't happen. And then I feel like that's my biggest frustration with him running, was running the first time, not even him waiting forever to step down. By that point, we'd already squandered that incumbent advantage, and that's that. But it is funny that you brought up, you know, how they're, like, trying to say that, oh, we're in love with Biden. In one breath they'll be like, oh, you don't like Trump. You must be as obsessed with Biden as we are with Trump. And then in the next breath, they'll be like, like, isn't it funny how Democrats never have anything good to say about Democrats, just bad stuff to say about Trump? And how I never see any Biden merch. It's just, you know, like. And I'm like, how do you guys impale yourselves with the point and not fucking get it? Like, how. How? Like, impale yourself with the point. Like, you're standing so close to the.

[Monty]

Point, it's giving you a lobotomy. But it is. And it's. It's this weird. It's such a strange. And when Tim Walls said the word weird, I was like, that is the best. Like, that. That's it. Because it's this strange. It's like when you're a kid or like a preteen and you have, like, your favorite. Like, you know, for me, it was Backstreet Boys, like, the boy bands posters on your wall, and you get the T shirts and you got the albums and you've got. And it's. It's that and it's this weird shrine worship that is so incredibly bizarre. I have never. And I'm gonna out myself here. In my lack of romantic relationships, I have never been as obsessed with anyone in my life as People are obsessed with Trump ever. Like, not someone I'm in love with. Not when I was like a super committed Christian. Like, I have never loved someone as much as. It is so strange.

[Jordan Wagoner]

It is.

[Monty]

I don't get it.

[Jordan Wagoner]

I don't understand. And it's weird that they don't see it as weird. Like, to me, even if I had something like that, I am just super nerding or geeking out about. Like, I'm always a little bit restrained about, like, outwardly, like, talking about that and appearing too overly obsessed with something, because I feel like that that's a little weird, right? Like, you never want to be the person at the party that doesn't shut the up about one thing, that you're the only person who cares about it, you know, and, and so, like, the fact that these people just go out in public. I had. Oh, my God. I, I was, I was sitting at local bar here, and some drunk biker guy is sitting next to me against my will, and he, he's talking and talking, and I'm. I'm maintaining, you know, a little bit of a polite conversation. And this is the other thing that drives me nuts about it, is the fact that they have to bring it up in every goddamn conversation. Like, they, it's like, you know, vegans and people who do CrossFit, you know, how do you know that they're one of those things? Don't worry, they'll tell you.

[Monty]

As a meat eater, I will throw in people who are on Carnivore. They do it too.

[Jordan Wagoner]

They do it too. But, you know, it's. It's like one of those things. It's like they have to find a way to slip it into every conversation that they're a Trump supporter. They have to bring up politics all the time. And again, growing up around these people and knowing that I wasn't, we usually had had political ideological differences, but we could still go out in public and, you know, watch cars turn gasoline into loud noises for entertainment and, and do that together and be like, this is fun to watch. And we could sit here and hang out and get drunk, and politics has no business being here. There's no point to talk about that here. Like, it doesn't need to be a part of this. And then suddenly, you know, Trump comes around and they've got Trump merch booths at events like that. And I'm like, this is, is. This is weird. Why is it, why is it like that?

[Monty]

But I was sitting next to this.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Guy at the bar, and he keeps needling and I keep trying to redirect from the conversation because like, I'm not, I don't want to go down this road with you because when I start, I don't stop. And you're, you're gonna have a bad time or I'm gonna have a bad time, but we're not gonna have a good time. And, and he. It was. I've had a lot of weird interactions with Trump supporters, but this one was the, the weirdest. He had this button up shirt on and he finally, like, I finally said something where I did some said something slightly critical of Trump or something because he was pestering and he just, he stands up and rips his shirt open like, you know, inbred Clark Kent and has a Trump shirt underneath it and like says something about Trump. And I'm like, like this, this is really happening. You're doing this and you think that this is, this is sending a message.

[Monty]

This is an Arby's.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Like, yeah, yeah, it was. I was like, my God. And I'm like, this is why Weird. Weird is what it is. I'm like, how, how can you see that behavior? Like have a little bit of self reflection that this is the behavior that you're exhibiting and think about it. Just take Trump and yourself out of it and think about anybody else doing that or any other situation and would you not be like, that person's a fucking creeper.

[Monty]

It's like, what just happened? Like, why did that just happen? And one of the things you need medical attention, like, are you, are you okay, sir? How many fingers am I holding up? One of the things that, like, especially because you're someone who's so knowledgeable, like not just historically and politically, but like civil responsibility. And one of the things that I get a lot of questions of and this is across the board, this is people who are extremely progressive, people who are just now realizing, hey, I have to be involved in politics. And people that are walking away from this kind of like Christian nationalist bubble. How would you recommend like that the average everyday person.

[Jordan Wagoner]

1.

[Monty]

Where do they start getting educated in your opinion? Like some of the examples where you got educated and how do they get involved?

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah. So the getting educated thing is, is hard because there has been such an effort to delegitimize factual independent media. Right? Like, yep. The, the far right media of Fox News and Blaze and Bribe Art and, and OAN and Newsmax have. Because every, every accusation is a confession. Everyone on the right, right? So it's like the, the liberal media and there is. Let's be clear. There is next to nothing for liberal media or like far left media in the United States.

[Monty]

Yeah. Our left is very center when you look at global politics.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah. And so I think, I think the first place to go is not a specific place to get educated. It's to learn media literacy. I think that that is the biggest deficiency. And this is something that I think is millennials, where the big disconnect comes from us. Because now somehow we ended up being the most progressive generation, which is unfortunate because we shouldn't be. There's two younger generations than us now.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

But we grew up when the age of the Internet was kind of coming around. And I'm sure you remember Wikipedia was not allowed as a source back in the day. And we had to get, you know, primary sources and all of that. And that's something that Gen X and boomers never grew up with with. They just had. If it came from a dude in a suit on the television or the radio, you could take it as fact. Right.

[Monty]

Y.

[Jordan Wagoner]

And then.

[Monty]

Well, prior to Reagan, we, we did have the Fairness Doctrine. So we did, you know, so there was a little bit more, a little bit more balance back prior to him, like revoking that doctrine, even though William Randolph Hearst did dramatically impact like tabloid style news.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Right. And people, I mean, in, in just fairness to the, the Fairness Doctrine, it's a lot more limited in scope than people think it was. Yeah. Like it didn't, it didn't apply to cable news or anything. It only applied to anything that was put out on public airways.

[Monty]

Yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

So really where the change came, the revolt or the removal of Fairness Doctrine allowed AM radio to get taken over by far right people like Rush Limbaugh. And that's really where they got their foot in the door. And that's the damaging part of Rush Limbaugh because that was the first stepping stone to Fox News. But Fox News exist even if we reinstated Fairness doctrine today. Yeah, 101, but, but yeah, no, the, the repeal of Fairness Doctrine and allowing conservative talk rate or just political talk radio in general was really kind of that first step into propagandizing media.

[Monty]

Yeah. And that's so true because it's, it's even one of the things. So one of my nieces, you know, she's in her early 20s. She's, she's kind of at the same age that I was when I started deconstructing and I started like hunting out facts because I had been taught a very whitewashed version of history. Like, you know, America is this Great godly nation and all these people are perfect and it was our divine, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. So I had to like reestablish all of my knowledge. I had been raised in propaganda my whole life and didn't know it. And so one of the things I've been helping her with is both media literacy and, and being able to know when something is being pitched to you as propaganda or not. And one of the exercises I've been doing with her is I will send her an article and I will say I want you to read this headline, tell me what it is the author wants you to focus on before you even read the article. And I'll have her send me a note and then I'll say, okay, now go back and read the article and then I'll send her. Once she does that, then I send her a different source and we do the same thing. So she's really starting to learn. She's like, oh my goodness, like they like this impacts what I think of the article before I even read it. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Wagoner]

And that's why. So I really do think, because any, if you have decent media literacy where you get your information from then is a lot less important because as long as you understand what you're reading in the context I can read as long as it contains factual information. A right leaning article that is clearly trying to lead you down a specific, a specific path if you know that going into it, because you can pick that out on the front side, you can read that more objectively and try to find, pick out the truth within that and then you can go verify the information in that article with other sources. And so that's, that's the first thing is cross reference sources. If one article sounds outlandish or ridiculous, cross reference it with another source from another publication. It doesn't matter what publication. You know, try not to go from Fox News to Newsmax, but like always cross reference your sources and always look for primary sources. If they don't quote something that you can go independently look up, it's not true, just automatically take it as as and don't believe it. And it, it might be, but you can't, if you can't independently verify that there's, you should absolutely not quote it, you should absolutely not take it as fact. And learning that media literacy of just if something sounds super ridiculous, it probably is. Like if, you know, they say that, I don't know, AOC wants to do post birth abortions or something like that, you know, that Sounds absolutely asinine, right? Because it is asinine. And like, start looking up like, like if it sounds ridiculous, figure out what they're talking about and look that up from a source that's not trying to sell you a specific story.

[Monty]

One of the things to look for that is to be able to like gauge your emotions. So if you are reading something that makes that, like, if you took this headline as fact, it immediately makes you angry and incensed and riled up. That is intentional and it is probably not true.

[Jordan Wagoner]

True. Yep, yep. 100. And that's again another part of media literacy is making sure that when you look for information, you're looking for information and not something that fits your confirmation bias, not something that's going to validate your preconceived notions. And, and I, I do miss when like Rupert Murdoch didn't own the Wall Street Journal because the Wall Street Journal has always been a more right leaning publication, but it was still a, it was a moderate right. And I relied on that a lot to go. And I'm like, I just want to understand the perspective of how more conservative people are viewing these, these topics. And it was something that I could at least take it as. They aren't, they aren't trying to sell, you know, mega style propaganda. They're just, this is a conservative publication writing about a very real event or policy from a conservative viewpoint. And I liked being able to have that balance. And it's hard to find that now because it's so extreme. Murdoch owns everything on the right and then, you know, and all the, all the center right, you know, traditional cable news also. Just stay away from cable news. Cable news is awful. Yeah, punditry, stay the away from punditry. I hate pundits so much. Which I get is kind of ironic because that's sort of what I am, I suppose, if you really got down to it, is, you know, political commentary.

[Monty]

You know, we're the news, we're the commentary now. And it's a very interesting shift. And I will say as well, cause again, I get a lot of questions about how do I get as educated as you, how do I find these things? And one of the best things you can do, and I know that it's hard with our social media era. Read, read, oh my goodness, get the actual book, find the primary source, read the news article. It will change the way that your brain processes information. And then when people talk, you'll be able to flag things. You'll hear somebody and you'll be like, wait, that doesn't sound right. That sounds, Wait a minute. And then you can, it teaches you how to interact with the information differently. And that's one of the things I say on my platform a lot is I'm like, please fact check me. Don't trust me just because I'm saying it. Please do that. Please go. But I think one of the things that we've lost, especially for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, is that they're not reading. It's all video, it's all voice. And so they're hearing it, they're taking it in the same way it used to be the guy in the suit on the news. And there's this gap where like, it's not even just media literacy, it's literacy is going down.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah, no, that's, that's absolutely true. I, I guess so. I get that question a lot people ask for, you know, oh, what books do you recommend? And I'm like, I, I mean, I've read a fair amount of books in my life, but I, to get educated on these types of things. I never go with books. I go with the driest material. You're, you're ever gonna see the research article. Yeah, I, I want, I want the facts and the statistics as, as free from interpretation or opinion as possible. So that way I can form my own as I'm consuming that information. And I think that that's where you know, if, if you read a book, you're reading it through the author's line lens, which is, which is great for a lot of things, but you're reading it with their opinion, presenting this information. If you, if you watch a news source where you have a pundit, you're getting this information through their lens. And so you're already being presented this as, you know, they, they can frame that and the information can still be factual, it can still be accurate, and it can still be very framed and curated to lead you to a certain feeling or perspective about that. And so, so I, I do think I support Wikipedia, honestly, when we weren't allowed to use it. I think Wikipedia is a great launch point for anything you want to learn on. Yep, go look up that topic because they're, they have all those primary sources on there, they have all the citations down at the end. It's LinkedIn very nicely, like a research paper would be. It's, it's organized really well and you can get a very quick overview. You can link back to where they got this information from to double check it for yourself, and then you can start your rabbit hole There on anything you want to know more about, you can get going from there. And I think that that is really probably the best place for people who want to start getting educated on that sort of stuff. It feels so weird to say, as a millennial, when we were told we're.

[Monty]

Like, ever, but they do, because Wikipedia.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Is the devil, Bobby.

[Monty]

When you go. When you go to these pages now, they do. It's all directly linked to those primary sources. And then at the bottom, they have lists of books where this information came from. And so it makes it. It's a really great, again, starting place and also kind of leads you to sources kind of naturally instead of having to hunt and try to find them on your own. And really, my last question on a lot of this is like, again, so you and I are now kind of these talking heads. And so we're in the news and we're doing responses to this stuff, and we're involved politically in keeping our eyes on this. How can people who are, you know, parents just now learning about this, how can people in practical ways really start to get involved? Because the house is on fire and people are realizing how important it is that all of us are participating. And I think a lot of people are very intimidated by it.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah, it can be as easy or as hard as you want it to be. And I think that that is. Is maybe the expanse of choice is what kind of overwhelms people in getting involved. But I'm telling you, if you've got kids and you're not at least going to school board meetings and PTA meetings, you should be like, that's. That's the bare minimum that you should be doing involved in your. Your kids lives. And I'm gonna be honest, school boards affect national policy far more than anybody realizes. And it affects local policy and it affects us for decades. We can go back the whitewashing of history that you were brought up with, that many of us were brought up with, the. The state's rights and all of that, it has been done through, you know, Texas Board of Education, affecting national policy and Moms for Not Moms for Liberty, Daughters of the Confederacy, you know, moms for Liberty 1.0, basically. Yep. Affecting curriculum in schools and. And that has a huge, huge impact on people for generations, because that's what you grow up and that's what you believe your entire life. That's what then those are the people who get into leadership who then write policy based on this flawed understanding that they were brought up with, because that's what was propagandized to them in school. So get involved at the local level. City council meetings, boring as. But go to them because that stuff affects your life more than anything. At the national level every ever will zoning laws and, and the things that they're passing there. And this is where you start to meet people who. You can figure out where to get more involved in your community and going. But beyond that, it doesn't have to be just that you can. It's. It's not hard to go to a protest and going to a protest is. Especially when the house is on fire like this. This. It's chicken noodle soup for the soul.

[Monty]

It is man. It's so empowering.

[Jordan Wagoner]

You get out there and you're around a bunch of people who are all there for the same cause, wanting the same thing and it's good vibes and lets you feel less hopeless. It gives you a really good feeling of hope and that's getting involved. And once again that's where you start meeting other people who are involved of you just. There's. There's lots of little things you can do. Obviously vote in primaries people. I'm about ready to strangle everybody who bitches about anything politically and has not voted in a primary. Like if you are complaining about candidates, you don't have a right to complain about candidates. If you haven't voted in a primary. Like you just. You don't mean. Shut the fuck up. So get out there, start educating yourself. When primaries come up, vote in primaries and then obviously vote in midterms. That's another, another thing. Just get out there and vote in all your elections and vote all the way down ballot. That's. That's the bare minimum of civic engagement. It's not hard to do if you can't show up on the day. You can vote absentee, you can vote mail in. There are ways to do it. Make sure that you stay involved. And again, that's the bare minimum. And then local. Local party politics are always looking for bodies to do anything. They will be very overwhelming and try to, you know, get you to sign up for all kinds of stuff. But take what you can manage.

[Monty]

Take what you can manage.

[Jordan Wagoner]

They would do that less if more people showed up and took on a few of the positions. Right. And that's really the problem is all of these local, local parties and these are just local people. These are people in your communities. This isn't big party. The, the. The DNC doesn't have a clue what's going on in your local Democratic precinct. These are just people who want to help improve their communities and be involved. And it's really not that hard to show up to a few caucuses and meetings and take on a little task here and there to help move the needle, volunteer for campaigns, door knocking, calling. There is, again, there's millions and millions of ways, and really, just getting involved in one of those is going to start introducing you to the people who know how to get you involved in more stuff.

[Monty]

Yeah, I agree. And so for you, before we wrap up, like. Like, what is. What are things that you're working on that you're excited about? What's kind of your vision for the future with your work and your path? What does that look like for you?

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yeah, I am. Got horrible ADHD and don't plan anything again, I'm just riding the wave. But, no, I've been really excited. I've gotten the opportunity to be working with Indivisible and the local Minnesota Black Lives Matter have invited me to speak at some protests, which has been really, really amazing, really empowering experiences. I got to speak at the no Kings protest.

[Monty]

That's amazing.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Or in St. Paul right after, you know, Senator Hoffman was murdered. Senator Hoffman and her family were murdered that morning.

[Monty]

How has that just, like, vanished?

[Jordan Wagoner]

Yep. A political assassination.

[Monty]

And they. I was so angry that they would not call it that. I'm like, this man has a list of abortion providers, all Democratic politicians. He's written exposes about what he's gonna do. Murder, murdered two, attempted to murder two more. And it's not. It's not terrorism. It's not a political assassination. But someone who. Who puts.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Luigi's Terrorism, though, right?

[Monty]

Exactly. And someone who puts graffiti on a Tesla. Yeah, like that. That just disappeared from the public radar, like, immediately. It was shocking.

[Jordan Wagoner]

And it's. It's frustrating, you know, And I mean, I'm. I guess I'm guilty about not talking about it enough either. I kept trying to remind people about it for a while, but. But the zone's flooded. It's hard to keep focus on. On anything. And that's, you know, very intentional.

[Monty]

Yeah, that's what Bannon said that they. Like, he said that in an interview, that that was their goal, was to flood you with so much that you can't handle it all.

[Jordan Wagoner]

And they've. They've done a great job of that. And, you know, I think the. The Hoffman assassination is a. A perfect example of that. But, no, it's. It's been really cool. You know, speaking at that. That was one of the most impactful moments of my life. Because first they pulled us. They weren't even going to do the protest. And then, you know, 80,000 Minnesotans showed up and they're like, no, we're not going to be. We're not going to be bullied here.

[Monty]

Yep.

[Jordan Wagoner]

And so then, yeah, I'm standing there, you know, the brightest target in the place up on stage and, and couldn't do my prepared speech because there was a lot of comedy in it. And it was definitely not the, the, the vibe for comedy, but got to, you know, say fuck Donald Trump and hear 80,000 people say it back to me. And that was, that was amazing. And so, yeah, I got to, I got to do that. I've spoken at a couple others. Now I've got local Indivisible that's asking me to come out and talk to them, help educate on some of that. I'm going to be doing some videos for one of my local Indivisible groups. I've been working with the state party to help kind of expand content creation and messaging. So I'm excited about that. Otherwise, it's just I'm trying to grow my podcast. Let Them Eat Toast is my podcast, which we'll have Monty here on very shortly, very soon. So I've been trying to grow that and get that going and continue to grow the brand and just kind of say yes to the opportunities that come where I feel like I can make a little bit of a difference.

[Monty]

Yeah. And where can people find your platforms? What's your username? What are all the things things?

[Jordan Wagoner]

All the things I'm on most of the social medias that aren't, you know, like only clans or whatever Trump's on these days. But Tick Tock is definitely my biggest platform. It's off joy and that's of Underscore J A W a G O N. And you can find me there on YouTube as well as Instagram Blue sky without the underscore threads sub stack all the places Podcast is Let Them Eat Toast that is on YouTube and video form under my regular channel as a, as a playlist. Otherwise, it's wherever you get your podcast and audio form, if you were to take them that way. So, yeah, you can feel free to. To follow me and, and watch me berate Trump supporters, I guess.

[Monty]

Watch, watch more of the rant. More of the rant. Jordan, thank you so much for coming on, especially. Cause it was pretty short notice, but I'm really excited to talk to you. Thank you for being part of my journey, helping me realize that, hey, open your mouth and say something, and people will listen sometimes. And I just want to take a minute to also thank all of my Patreon supporters that are making the show possible. And some special announcements coming up in the next few weeks for that. And I will see you next week on Flipping Tables. Jordan, thanks for being here here.

[Jordan Wagoner]

Thank you so much for having me. This was great.