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- [00:00]
A
Death is one journey that we all have to take. And throughout history, every culture has honored and imagined it just a little bit differently. For some, death was a doorway to a new paradise. For others, it was a descent into shadow. And for every civilization, there were people whose job it was to guide you through it. There was community celebration. There was ways to honor the ancestors or to ensure that your loved one had safe passage into the afterlife. Today we're going to talk about death. And for many of us who grew up in fundamentalism, our early years, or even our early conversions if we were very young, was rooted deeply in the fear of hell and eternal punishment after death. I know for me, I prayed the first sinner's prayer because I prayed several, of course, trying to make sure I wouldn't go to hell. I prayed it when I was five, really motivated by fear of what might happen to me in the afterlife. I had hell nightmares. And today we live in a culture that is really opposed to talking about death. Sitting in grief. We don't know how to sit with people or help them. We're usually so unprepared, not just for end of life, but how to even have those conversations. Today we're going to remove the stigma and lean into a journey that we all have to take. And we're going to start by diving into ancient death traditions, from ancient Egypt to Mesopotamia, some of the early Israelites, some solemn burials, and we're going to even go down into Africa with some of the mass dances to celebrate those tribes. And then we're going to speak with Brittna Savaris, who is a death doula. She works professionally helping people prepare for the end of life and to make that final transition. She's a Dallas death doula, offering end of life planning and preparation, grief support, visual sitting, ritual guidance, and she focuses on the deconstruction of fear around death. Death, like some of the faith that we've been taught, has these unspoken rules that we can unlearn and rebuild. She advocates for justice at the end of life, care that respects identity, culture and autonomy. She is an empowered presence in people with their last moments with their family. Facing the inevitable with love and intention can change how we live now and again. Just as we deconstruct harmful theology, we can deconstruct the fear around death, making space for peace and purpose, tradition, the afterlife, beyond the veil. What happens next today on Flipping Tables. I'm very excited for today's episode. A little bit different today. Tone's gonna be a bit different. I just wanna say another Immense. Thank you to all of my Patreon supporters and the new followers both to this show and on Instagram. Thank you for the new reviews. Thank you for sharing this with people. It means a lot to me. I am getting to transition completely out of fitness and do this work full time. And it has been so encouraging to see people join and be helped by what I have to say and to also meet people in public. That's just been really wonderful. Just a reminder that the new website, montemater.com is up and running and there is a shop there. There's information on my courses. We finally pulled all these pages and landing forms into one space where you can find everything that I'm involved with. And you can also sign up for my email list at that page. And today, the structure, we're going to talk a little bit about the history of death in different cultures, how they celebrated it. Just little touches of what did people used to think about this. And then we're going to transition it into our interview with Britna to talk about her work as a death doula. So we're going to start with one of my personal favorites, Ancient Egypt. And if you want to see a civil civilization that was obsessed with the afterlife, you can look no further than ancient Egypt. They didn't just believe in life after death. It was so much more than that. They actually engineered this life after death. The Egyptians imagined that the soul was a collection of parts. The ka, which was your life force, the ba, which was your personality. And it was free to roam separate from you and the akh, which is the transfigured spirit that would live forever if you made it through final judgment. So you can kind of imagine your. Your heart being placed on a golden scale, and on the other side is a feather. And the feather of Ma' at is the goddess of truth. And if your heart was lighter, you walked into paradise, into lush fields of reeds. If your heart was heavier than the feather of Ma', at, you went to, you know, crocodile, lion, hippo, Goddess Ammit would make sure that you never came back. You went into the underworld, into punishment. And to prepare for this cosmic trial that you would face at the end of your life. Embalmers and priests and professional, they were professionals, not family, went to work. Mummification wasn't just about preservation. In fact, that wasn't really a. It was a magical sacred process to make sure that the ka could find its way back to the body. Your body had to stay in one piece so that your life force could find its Way back to you. Tomb walls became illustrated maps of the afterlife. And in your burial chamber, they provide. Your family and friends provided food, clothes, and even servants in miniature form called shapti, figures to work for you in eternity, in your next life. These were the ancient Egypt death guides, and it was their version of helping transition you, almost like a death doula, into the next life, making sure that you had help. Now let's shift to Mesopotamia. Sumer, Akkad, Babylon, Assyria. Their view of the afterlife was much, much darker. Not this trial based on your life, not this, you know, thing that you could survive and then enter paradise. In Mesopotamia, there was no paradise, no divine reward. Every soul, no matter how good or wicked. The same place called Urkala, the land of no return. We see this reflected in ancient Israelite text. In the Old Testament by Sheol, there was no heaven. It was just everyone went to this. Sheol means the pit. It means darkness. And everyone went there when you died. And it's based on a Mesopotamian belief, and it was ruled by Ereshkigal, the queen of the underworld. There, the dead ate clay and drank dust. And it sounds incredibly bleak, but Mesopotamia still believed in caring for the dead. Burying someone properly kept their spirit from becoming a restless, hungry ghost. And here, the role of, you know, a death doula was filled with lamentation by priests, professional mourners, men called galah women were trained in wailing and ritual dirges. Their cries weren't just a performance. It was a spiritual work, making sure the dead found rest, that the living found release. Because in these cultures that didn't believe in heaven, simply that you. You passed on, one of the worst things that could happen to you was to linger, to become a ghost that would. Would haunt the region. And also they believed that you could also be completely exterminated, which was worse than going down to the pit or going down to the underworld. Again, the ancient Israelites was simpler, but no less profound. There was no fiery hell, no shining heaven, just stillness. It wasn't as dark or as grim as the Mesopotamian belief, But Sheol, the pit, was based in the same principle that everyone dies, everyone goes to the same place. In ancient Israel, burial happened quickly, often within 24 hours. Being gathered to one's ancestors was an honor. Often family tombs were used where the family would be buried in the same place. But mourning was especially deeply ritualized for families. You read in the Bible about people ripping their clothes, tearing their garments, putting ashes on their head, weeping aloud vigorously and loudly. There were also, in ancient Israelite culture, Professional wailing women. This was. It was this, this demonstration and this celebration of grief. And the prophet Jeremiah mentions call for the mourning women that they may come. This is one of the many spiritual practices that women took part of in ancient cultures, similar to what we talked about with witches last week, that women these spiritual roles around death, because women also served often to help families transition, sit with loved ones as they passed. Often it was women who came in and held that space. And in ancient Africa, the Dogon of Mali in South Africa, we meet the Dogon people of Mali, whose culture and death traditions are tied to the stars. To the Dogon, death is not the end. The soul becomes an ancestor that watches over the living months, sometimes years. After burial, they hold a dhamma, a ceremony to release the spirit fully into the realm of the ancestors. So this, this would look a little bit more like the village is filled with mass dancers. The masks were an important part of the ritual, an important part of the art form. They would beat drums, play this beautiful music, and each masked dancer has a meaning. Each of the masks represents a spirit, an animal, a cosmic force. Each representation is a visual part of helping the spirit transition fully to the ancestors. And these masked dancers are full of ritual specialists. They control sacred objects, chant secret magical words, and lead the soul into the new home. And according to the Dogon belief, without them, without these mass dancers, the transition wouldn't be complete. We see that theme again of. Of lingering. So across the ancient world, there were always these people, some of them specialists, some of them would have even been midwives that would also operate in this capacity. Some were herbalists, magicians, astrologers, or even priests or priestesses, often outside of the family themselves. Whose work was to help them say goodbye. Whose work was to help them transition into what the next chapter was. In Egypt, it was the embalmers and priests. Mesopotamia, we had lamenters. Israel had wailing women. In Africa, mass dancers and shamans. And today we call some of them death doulas. Trained professionals who offer emotional, spiritual and practical care in a person's final chapter. Now, these are not medical professionals. These are really here more for the spiritual, emotional and physical presence. And they often work very closely with hospice. They don't just comfort the dying. They hold space for the families. They help prepare documentation. Here's what we need to have prepared for you. They sit with people and make sure, what are your wishes as you make this final transition? How do you want to be buried? How do you want your family to celebrate your life? Truly, it's one of the oldest professions on earth. It just has a different name and a different set of clothes. For thousands of years, these beliefs have been practiced and evolved. Many of them were persecuted during the witch trials. But we now have a new resurgence of this type of conversation, this type of care, this beautiful look at life of how do we honor those who are going before us? How do we honor the next chapter? And to really talk about what that looks like today in America. We're going to start our interview with Brittna Savaris, a Dallas death doula. Brittna, welcome to the show today. Thank you for being here. We've been working for months to get you on the show. Your what you do is so incredible and I can't wait to have this conversation with you.
- [11:40]
B
Thank you so much. I'm so honored to be here. And you know, it has been a few months of trying, but I really think that timing is everything. And with what we're seeing right now with this administration, regime, whatever you want to call it, you know, trans being legislated out of existence, DEI affecting people with disabilities. We've got now gay marriage up for debate again. And you know, it's just a really important time, I think, to talk about what I do.
- [12:19]
A
I think so too. And I had never heard of what you do until you and I started speaking. And obviously we've introduced you, but I would love for you to kind of give a little general overview of, of what your profession looks like so that people kind of have a sense of what it is you do.
- [12:40]
B
So Death Doula is a non medical support person for people with terminal illnesses, their family or circle of support, just to be there to help them dive with dignity, make sure that their wishes are noted. So I do end of life planning, advance directives with everything that I just mentioned before. It's so important that all of the wishes that you have are written down, your desires and it's just something that people don't talk about very much. And so another thing that I really like to focus on is destigmatizing, kind of taking the taboo out of talking about death, dying, the limitations in western medication, things like that.
- [13:32]
A
Yeah. And I, you know, I will say, you know, I, I've lost my parents and my grandparents by the time I was 25. And one of the things that I've noticed in our culture is there's this resistance to kind of talking about death or sitting in grief. People tend to push it away as fast as they can. It's almost like I don't know why you're not over that yet. We say things like, oh, everything happens for a reason. And then we leapfrog over the grief that the person is experiencing. How did you end up here? Because that is such an intense place of work to come into people's lives at the end of their life and guide them through it. How did you end up in this profession?
- [14:21]
B
Yeah, so thank you for that question. And first, can we just start off by saying, you know, fuck platitudes. They do nothing but help the person saying it, and it does nothing for the person grieving. So I just want to give everyone permission just to. When you hear about someone grieving, just say, that fucking sucks. I'm so sorry about your loss. Why don't you tell me about your loved one? I'd love to hear about them. That's so much better than they're in a better place.
- [14:48]
A
And also, like, just reach out to the person and be honest. Say, I don't know how to help you, but I'd like to. Is there something I can do for you? How can I be here for you? Because I. So this was back when I was still in church when my dad passed away. And this. This church person said to me, you know, the. Everything happens for a reason. And this was the week after we had buried him. And I turned and I looked at her, and I do not necessarily advise this. I'm just telling the story. And I said, if you ever say something like that to me again, I will punch you in the throat. Like, I just didn't even blink. I was so outraged. Like, how dare you have the audacity to say that to me right now? But it's so incredibly common. So if you're wondering how to help someone when they're grieving, just ask them what they need and just be there for them. And if someone says a platitude to you, just let them know you're not going to tolerate that.
- [15:45]
B
Yeah, so that was my little sidebar. Now back to your original question. So, you know, I spent a lot of time as a young girl in a funeral home. And it sounds really odd until you realize that I come from a large family that's from a really small town, and that means a lot of death. So I got to see people react to the mortician, Ted, with so much gratitude and respect for the compassion that he showed the family. So at a very young age, before I was even a teenager, decided I wanted to be a mortician. So I was really able to find beauty in supporting people at the end of life and with their grief. So I went to mortuary college right out of high school and realized that's not what I was thinking. So in the industry, we call it the death whisper, which I heard at a very young age when I started mortuary college. For me, it silenced the death whisper. And flash forward a couple of decades, I heard a death doula named Alua Arthur speak. And. And as soon as I heard her talk about her work, that whisper became like a deafening yell. And I went, this is what I was supposed to do. So, fortunately for me, Alua has a training program called Going with Grace. And I was fortunate enough to be accepted into the program and have never looked back. It's been the most rewarding work I've ever done. Some of the toughest.
- [17:26]
A
Yeah.
- [17:28]
B
And. But definitely the. The most rewarding. So.
- [17:33]
A
And how do you. You know, because this is kind of what I thought of when. When you told me a little bit about what you do. How do you go into that space not internalizing the grief. Right. Because obviously it's sad. Like, these are sad spaces. You're watching a family grief. You. You know what's about to happen. You get to know this person and help them prepare, and then they're gone. So how do you emotionally manage that?
- [17:58]
B
So with a Lewis training, she's really, really intentional. Intentional about teaching people how to deal with that. And one of the tips that she gave that really helped me was, as I'm walking into a room, first, let me back up. In the training, you do a lot of work on your own thoughts about death, grief, and you kind of process all of that so that you can go in a little more as an open vessel. But to that point, when I'm entering a room, I touch the threshold of the door, and that's kind of my tactile notice to myself. Leave your baggage in the hallway. Yeah, they don't need it. It does not help them. And you're here to support them. And that allows me to go in with an open heart, an open mind, clear heart and mind, and really be able to be present for them and meet them where they are now. On the reverse, on my way out, I touch that threshold again. And that's my note to say, this is not yours to carry outside of this room. You have your own heavy baggage outside waiting for you. You've held this while you needed to. And then I'm able to leave it there. And that's not to say that I don't think about that. I don't think about those conversations moving through my day. I just don't carry it as my own. I know that there's nothing I can do to change it. So I'm just there to meet them where they are. And because I'm able to compartmentalize, when I do lose a client, it is easier for me maybe, than some people to say, I value so much the time that I had with them, the lessons I learned from them, because I do learn something new from every client, and I sit with that grief. Grief is hard, but it's so beautiful, Monty, because it comes from such a space of love and respect. And you don't have, generally grieve something you did not love and don't love. So that's another thing I try to tell people is sit in that grief where in our society, we're told, don't, you know, go through the five stages of grief and move on. You've got your timeline. You've got, what is it? You know, three days of bereavement at work, and then get over it. And it's just not how it works. And sometimes we almost have more grief and compassion for people when they lose a pet, when they lose a loved one. Both losses equally difficult, of course.
- [20:51]
A
And so with your growing up, like, did you grow up with any kind of religious background, like, conversations around heaven and hell with death? What was your. Your kind of foundation as a kid?
- [21:05]
B
So one of the reasons I was so attracted to you and the work that you do is because I was raised Southern Baptist. And that just saying it, it's like I was too. I was too, you know, to my body. And, yes, I do, though not as entrenched in my life as with yours. Southern baptism, the Southern Baptist just within itself is very oppressive. Yeah. And there was trauma involved in that. And so there was a lot of fear about hell and dying. And that caused a lot of anxiety, but it also caused a lot of questions. I was very inquisitive, and, you know, that's really frowned upon girls, especially for young girls. And so there were several times when in Sunday school, I would be asked to sit out in the hall because I couldn't understand how, you know, a man built a boat and got all the animals or how bushes were talking to people and, you know, things like that. And instead of being able to address those questions, much like you would, it was just shut up and get out in the hallway. And then they moved on. And so I have a lot of respect for how you've taken the trauma that you experience and are using that to educate and help people like me kind of process what they actually went through.
- [22:46]
A
Yeah, and it's, it's one of the things, because I think part of the reason that we have this, especially people with Christian backgrounds have this cultural weirdness with death is because of that fear that's instilled in you when you're very, very young. I mean, three to five years old, when you think about it, it's. It's kind of abusive, like to kind of threaten and intimidate a small child into this belief system that they don't understand, they can't understand yet with this threat of eternal punishment. I remember, you know, five, six years old having hell nightmares because I used to get night terrors a lot when I was a kid. And it's very fear motivated. I don't know of anyone that got saved between that 3 to 6 range that I know of personally and myself included that got saved because they understood or wanted Christ's love or anything like that. They all got saved because I didn't want to go to hell. I was scared. Which is an insane confession to have. And in the Christian nationalist kind of larger dialogue, there's. Especially now with like. Because the hatefulness and the rhetoric and the dogma is so open now and it's so out there, like it's always been there, but now that they're not trying to mask it, there's this kind of joy they have when they talk about atheists are going to hell or gay people are going to hell. It's like, that shouldn't make you happy, but it does. And it's very much. I think that sometimes Christians are so caught up in the indoctrination of heaven and hell that they forget that you're a steward of earth. And because you're so focused on. I'm just focused on the kingdom of God. It's like the kingdom of heaven is also here based on what you do right now to the people around you. And I think it's that kind of thought process and that kind of early fear that instills an even greater fear of death in people than they maybe would have had if that wasn't put in place. Do you notice a difference in how people approach death based on, like, religious upbringing? Is that something that you've noticed with clients?
- [25:05]
B
It is definitely. Every culture, every religion has kind of its different belief systems on not only the afterlife, but kind of death and dying in and of itself. And it's, you know, the rituals that are involved in that. And so I have been able to do a lot of learning about different cultures and belief systems as it relates to death. And I think that's been really beneficial to me as a white Southern Baptist woman to grow from the lessons that I've learned from these different cultures. And I think that it's impacted my belief and thoughts about death and how to care for people of all backgrounds and belief systems. I don't have to believe what people believe in order to support them.
- [26:01]
A
Yeah.
- [26:02]
B
Now, with that said, of course there are some people I will not support. If I walk in and you've got a, you know, Trump flag in your background, I'm not helping you. I'm so sorry.
- [26:10]
A
Like I said, I can't be in this space with you.
- [26:13]
B
Right. But to that point, I do believe everyone does deserve support during death and dignity and death. And so I will help you find a hate filled doula if there is one out there, you know, but it's not going to be this bitch.
- [26:32]
A
It's not going to be me. And I. One of the things this made me think of when you and I first started talking. Have you read the book the Top five Regrets of the Dying?
- [26:41]
B
I have.
- [26:42]
A
So I love that book and I don't reread it in its entirety all the time, but I do reread those Top five Regrets pretty frequently. And I read it after my dad's passing because I recognized my dad died very young, very healthy, very suddenly. And so I recognized that you get one life, you don't know how long it's gonna be. And some people get noticed that, like, hey, you've got this long left. Some people don't. And that book was so eye opening for me. And just for people who haven't read the book, she's a hospice nurse who writes about what the most common regrets are that people have that they communicate to her at the end of their lives. And it's so informative about what the focus of our lives really should be. And in your experience with your clients, do those hold true? What do you notice that when people get to the end of their lives and they're in this chapter, what do you notice that they say, you know, I wish I would have done more or less of. What are some of those themes that you've seen in your work?
- [27:53]
B
Yeah, well, I can tell you it is pretty universal that no one says, I really regret that I didn't work harder at my job, you know, and so I do hear a lot that it's, I regret I did not pay attention to the joys in my life. Just the little joys that, you know, brewing that cup of coffee in the morning and just sitting there and smelling that. Spending time with the family, even if it's just, you know, sitting on the couch together and not really even speaking much, just kind of being. Having your energy intermingled, things like that, that's all really universal. Wanting to spend more time focused on the relationships in their life and having hard conversations with people. There's a lot of regret about not spending time talking about difficult things in life. Just easier to sweep it under the rug. Go on.
- [29:02]
A
It's not real. I'm going to try to pull up. I don't have the list. I want to pull up and read those top five regrets, because you would think at this point point I would have them memorized, but I don't. And here are the top five from Bronnie Ware is her name. Number one is, I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me. The second one is, I wish I hadn't worked so hard. Three was I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings. 4 is I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends. And five is I wish I had let myself be happier.
- [29:43]
B
And with everything going on right now in this world, aren't those five so important?
- [29:49]
A
So important, Especially joy. I've had a lot of conversations around joy with people and everything from, how do I find joy in this time? Or I feel guilty for having joy, and I'm like, that's what makes life worth living, you know? And if you allow yourself to get into this cycle where there's no happiness, there's no air, there's no joy, you're gonna give up. You know, I can't remember the exact quote, and I'm gonna misrepresent it a little bit, but there was a quote about what was going on during the AIDS crisis that they said, we buried our friends in the morning, we protested in the afternoon, and we sang and danced all night. And that is just the most beautiful picture of. Of what resistance while being alive means and looks like.
- [30:44]
B
And do you think, oh, sorry, go ahead, Go ahead.
- [30:46]
A
No, no, go ahead.
- [30:47]
B
I was just gonna say, I do think that that is one of the best lessons that I've learned in doing this work, is the more you think about death and talk about death, it's almost counterintuitive. It makes you live a better, more rewarding and fulfilling life because you know, it's such a short, finite amount of time. You're looking for little bits of joy. And I found before I was focused on death, I was looking for big moments of joy. And so the little ones, which really make the biggest impact, were just going by me completely unnoticed. And that changed the moment I started thinking about my impending death. And, you know, some people don't think about their death until they're terminal. We need to reframe that. We are all born terminal.
- [31:49]
A
Yeah.
- [31:50]
B
So we don't need a diagnosis. You're born with a diagnosis. It's called birth. It's the end of that, you know, and so take all the. Find all the joy that you can, learn all the lessons that you can, and then plan for the end, because you never know when it's going to happen. And I think that's another part of my job that I really find a lot of fulfillment in, is teaching people that lesson so that they can in turn find that joy, but also getting them to plan their end of life. And that what that looks like is if you're incapacitated and can't speak for yourself, what do you want your surroundings to look like? Do you want people in the room with you? Do you want to limit the number? Do you want certain smells or sounds when it comes to your death? How do you want to die? If possible, do you want to die at home? Or are you looking for alternatives? And then once you do die, how do you want your. Your friends to celebrate what is important to you? What do you want that life celebration to look like? And one of the great things is people now are getting sick of the traditional funeral where you sit in, like a pew and people tell you how to mourn, and that's about it. So I'm really excited to see people embracing things like having their end of life celebration at their favorite sports bar. And people are getting to mingle and share stories. And so there's laughter, there's tears, and it's a true, beautiful celebration.
- [33:37]
A
It's very Irish.
- [33:38]
B
Love that trend. It's so Irish.
- [33:40]
A
Very Irish.
- [33:42]
B
And there's a lot of cultures that embrace death like that and actually have a respect and a reverence for the dead as opposed to just kind of a, oh, you know, they fought the good fight, now it's done. It's like, man, they learned everything they needed to. How amazing for them, so much respect. They've moved on to whatever the next is, is, you know.
- [34:09]
A
Yeah, that's incredible. And I. I wonder too. I just lost my Train of thought. For a second, I was really caught up in that. I think about one of the blessings that came from experiencing so much death at a young age was it did change my perspective on life, and it changed my perspective. I don't think that I would have pursued music, which eventually led me to the work I'm doing now, if my dad had not died young. I was raised by my dad exclusively, and my dad was 60 years old. He was perfectly healthy. I had a phone call with him that day. He was fine. And what it showed me was there was a couple things. One was all my dad ever wanted to do his whole life was to sing and to write. And he never pursued it because he was caught up in pleasing his father. And his father said, well, good sons come home and take care of the ranch. And I watched my dad sacrifice his life to someone else's dream. And then when he was gone, he was gone. And he didn't have a chance to plan for it, and he didn't have a chance to, well, when I retire, I'm gonna pursue these things. And so for me, what it taught me in that moment was, if I go tomorrow, like, what is the. What if I can't live with? What would be the one thing that I would have wished I would have done? And if I do live to be elderly, what do I wanna look back and say was the story of my life? Do I want it to be that I was brave and that I tried these things and I leaned in? Or do I wanna sit and live with, well, what would have happened if I did? And what do you find are the most common things that people haven't prepared when they enter this end of life chapter?
- [35:57]
B
Just about everything, unfortunately. And so because of that, I also host end of life planning parties to kind of take the out of it. So I do think. I think especially for the communities that I like to represent the most, which is like the queer community, disabled community, polyamorous community, just kind of the, you know, marginalized communities. There's so many nuances in the death, you know, end of life planning for those communities that I don't think people think about. And so then the time comes and it's like, oh, shit, are the hospitals? Is the medical team going to honor my identity? Are they going to honor my chosen family? Will people know my routines at the end, how to work, my medical equipment, things like that? And you can't have a dignified end if people don't know those things. And it's also just such a beautiful gift to give your loved ones. If you have all your plans done, they can focus on celebrating you and grieving you and what a beautiful gift because how many times have you heard and you may have experienced this with your dad since it was such a sudden loss? The oh shit, now what? Where do I find any life insurance policies? How do I log into these electronic devices? What did they want done with their social media presence? There's all these little things that people just don't think about. And so it's really important not only for us to have dignified deaths, but to allow our families and our loved ones to grieve appropriately. Does that make sense?
- [38:08]
A
Well, and to give them space and like reduce some of the stress, you know, because. And in my family there was a huge fallout because my dad hadn't updated his will and he was getting ready to when he passed away. And it was just one of those things. And we're going to take a brief break to thank our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by ground news. 1 in 3 female active duty military members face sexual assault and harassment in the military, which is often referred to as MST or military sexual trauma. And those are just the reported cases, but it's significantly higher compared to the one in five for the general population. And it's notoriously hard to get convictions, especially when the attacker is also a Service Member. In 2023, the Department of Defense concluded that sexual harassment is a leading factor affecting the unit climate. On sexual assault, the majority victims were harassed by someone in their chain of command. Veterans from all eras of service, from World War II to those who served more recently in Iraq and Afghanistan, have reported experiencing military sexual trauma. And those assaults, especially repeated ones, lead can end in pregnancy. When I checked my Ground News headlines and saw that the Department of Veteran affairs is now removing abortion protection for veterans and active service members, my heart sank. In 2022, Biden established protections that would allow service members to have abortions in cases of rape and incest as well, for the health and safety of the mother. And now those protections will be taken away, especially for women who serve in the military, get attacked by their own ranks and receive no justice. This seems unspeakably cruel. This, coupled with massive budget cuts to the VA as a whole, is another massive blow to what should be a growing, not shrinking, veteran care. As I have followed this story on Ground News, I've been I've not been surprised to see that the headlines vary pretty wildly from no nuance. Taxpayers shouldn't pay for vet abortions to larger picture discussions of reproductive care for vets and the budget cuts in the va. In the overwhelm of information. Being able to contrast sources on Ground News and immediately see their factuality rating and who owns them helps me get information from multiple sources that I can rely on and helps me weed out the ones I can't rely on. Subscribe today using the link ground news.com tables for 40% off their vantage plan and stay informed with a resource that you can trust. This episode is also brought to you by Intravenous Solutions, Nashville's premier IV Therapy and wellness center. IV therapy can help you recover quicker from heavy workouts or illness, treat the symptoms of dehydration and improve sleep and give you healthy glowing skin. Being on stage several times a week, using my voice constantly and dealing with some chronic health conditions, I can say that their ozone therapy and their IV treatments keep me on my feet and are a lifesaver. Dr. Allen and his staff are kind and knowledgeable and use up to date state of the art groundbreaking practices to keep you healthy and moving freely. They also offer vitamin shots, oxygen therapy, Botox, filler, weight management and mobile services. With four locations in Nashville, Hendersonville, Franklin and their brand new location in Second Avenue on the Baker's Alley Hotel by Hilton. It is so easy to get high quality care all week. So come party in Nashville, come say hi to me and beat the hangover at Intravenous Solutions. Give the code Monty10 at checkout for a 10% discount on services. My next question is with what are some things if you feel comfortable sharing like some of the kind of magical stories that you've experienced in these moments, like because I've never sat with someone as they died or sat with someone right in that, that really, that, that very, very end. What is that? Like, what have you noticed with people? Like what has happened energetically or spiritually in your experience?
- [41:55]
B
Yeah. What a beautiful question. Thank you so much. So you know, every death is different, but there are some commonalities you do often see at the end of life. People kind of reaching up. There's thoughts behind that that people are reaching up to their spirit guides, whether that be family members, loved ones, whatever. You'll often hear if people are able to speak, saying things like like I've got to get my bag packed, I've got my train ticket and it's like.
- [42:27]
A
Oh, they're going somewhere, taking the train out.
- [42:30]
B
Yeah, we know there's a trip coming. There's a lot of times you also see a second wind which sometimes can be kind of alarming to the family because it makes them a little hopeful, like, ah, great coming back. But no, it generally is just like, okay, I know I'm going out so I'm going to go last to raw, make sure I can tell my story is love all my loved ones a little bit longer. And I think that that makes passing easier probably.
- [43:00]
A
Yeah. And what do you, what do you believe after being in this space for as long as you have? What do you believe happens after death?
- [43:12]
B
Who knows?
- [43:13]
A
And it's okay if you don't know and it's okay if you're like, I feel that this, I'm just wondering because you have such a unique, unique perspective that's not influenced, you know, by say like a pastor or a priest. It's, it's just these experiences of being in the room.
- [43:28]
B
Yeah. So I'm really, when I'm going into the room, I'm really open to anything, obviously, like I said before, but I, I guess when I think about it and my thoughts almost change all the time, Libra in me maybe, I don't know that, you know, energy does not die. So I like to think that at the moment of passing and Allua explained it beautifully, that like you process all these feelings, like every feeling you ever had and it's just so intense that, you know, the anger, the love, the compassion, everything builds up and your body just can't take it anymore. And then your soul just, and she calls it an orgasmic explosion of glitter and energy out into the universe. And I found that so beautiful. That really resonated with me because I don't, you know, I know that energy doesn't die. And so that's, I guess my belief of what happens at the end. You know, we talked about being raised Southern Baptist and having that fear of hell. I almost think that my fear of hell now has kind of changed in that when you hear people talk about their near death experiences, one of the commonalities that you hear is not like I went towards a bright light or anything like that. It's. There was a life review and so you weren't seeing things from your perspective. You were seeing things for what you did, how it impacted other people. So you're feeling the feelings that you caused other people. And I did not always have the belief system that I had. And I know that there were people in my life that I caused harm to. And I was scared about feeling that. Even though it doesn't sound like it's like an eternity, like, you know, fire and Brimstone hell. It's still just even that time of feeling harm I may have caused before I started doing good. And I don't know that the good will outweigh the bad in the slight review. And that's like hell to me. That's like a new hell.
- [45:56]
A
And what an interesting take on, you know, because there is these kind of. In the Southern Baptist tradition and in Christian fundamentalism, there's this theme of like your life is going to be replayed, like you're, you're going to have this kind of moment where it's interesting to me that people that do have these near death experiences get that review or part of it. And it's such a jarring kind of putting you on notice of your life. Right again, right now here on earth is impacting people. And that's what you will have to be accountable almost to yourself one day, that you're gonna have to experience the good or the harm that you put on other people.
- [46:43]
B
Right.
- [46:43]
A
And that's an incredible. I would love to meet someone who's had a near death experience and like have a conversation with them. But it's such an incredible kind of thought process because one of the things that I was always impressed with was in the New Testament, Paul very much thinks that Christ is returning in his lifetime. And Paul reiterates over and over that the kingdom of heaven is now. The kingdom of heaven is now. He clearly thought that this was a right here, right now, not sometime in the future kind of a thing. And, and what I like about that thought is that it really does change what you do now. And it makes, you know, it makes you reap what you sow. Makes so much more sense. It makes so much more sense if it's right here, right now, not sometime in the distant future. And when you've been in these spaces and holding space for people, have you ever experienced, and this is like a curiosity for me because this is something that interests me. Have you ever experienced anything that you would consider paranormal or any kind of, kind of almost magical, unexplainable kind of instances when you're in these rooms?
- [48:01]
B
You know, unfortunately I'm always looking right, it's paranormal. And I'm like, I'm open to it. Where are you? But I have seen some really amazing signs or just beautiful things happen. For example, my, one of my clients, in all of our conversation over a two year span, she was my longest running client, we talked about that. It was just really so important for her dog to be present now. She, of course had the plans of dying at home. We knew, you know, which room, all of that. We had planned everything. And death does not always look at our schedule or our end of life plans. And so it's always good to have backup plans, which is, you know, something I always recommend. And so she did end up going to the hospital, but we got her dog in there, and it was really beautiful to see. She had been laboring really hard. It was hard to breathe, which made it really difficult, obviously, for her family to see that. And within 10 minutes of getting the dog there, her breathing calmed and she was able to breathe easy. And within an hour and a half, she died. And she had been in the hospital for about three days breathing like that and all of that. And it was just knowing that we needed to fulfill that one last wish was all she needed. And that was really beautiful. That was really beautiful.
- [49:49]
A
Yeah. And I think, you know, you definitely hear stories where, you know, people hang on until a specific person can get home, or they hang on until. And pets play such a big role in that, too. I know some people kind of poo poo the relationship with pets, but it's so important. And I also think for the pet, it's important to help them understand because, you know, they're part of our lives most of the time. They live a lot shorter timeframes than we do. We're their entire life. And so they also have to be able to understand why mom's not home anymore. And I think that that's so beautiful. That, like, just that companionship and that desire that she had was, you know, really what she needed. And, you know, when it's, like, kind of making me emotional, like. But it is. It's so beautiful. And one of the things that I've grown to appreciate as I've deconstructed and as I've gotten older, is that, like, there's these beautiful things in each phase of life, just kind of. And I think with end of life, it's this idea of your memories and your reflection and looking back and this celebration of life, which, for me is a huge motivator in how I live every day, because I understand that I get to write the story, and I'm writing it right now with every single decision I make. And I love that, you know, people can. I'm just amazed that there's people like you who do come into these spaces and hold space for people like this because it's just. It's heavy, but it's also very, very beautiful.
- [51:40]
B
Thank you. You know, it's and it's one of the probably oldest professions, though people didn't usually get paid for it. But I'm sure with the history knowledge that you have, you know, you've heard stories of people being supported during the time of their death by people that were not family members. There was community members. Tribes have had people that their focus was helping tribal members labor out of life. They weren't always called death doulas, obviously, that's a newer term, you know, so you'd hear them in the black midwives. Different cultures have different names for them, but the work has always been done. I really do appreciate that we are learning more in our culture about how to honor the dying, how to die with dignity, you know, and that brings up another point. You talked about our relationships with our pets, and isn't it amazing that we have such compassion for our ill pets and we don't want them to suffer, so we allow them to die with dignity and not in pain. We give them comfort and we are allowed to help them labor out. We don't have that same compassion with our loved ones, except for in like, 14 states or something like that. And so I really think it's important that we try in this country to get medical aid and dying legal in every state so that people do have some agency over their death. And I don't think that we should make our loved ones or allow ourselves to have to hold on because of this false sense of the Hippocratic oath. And you gotta milk every single day. For me, it's definitely quantity of life over quality of life. And I think a lot of people in our culture are finally starting to realize that.
- [54:03]
A
Yeah, well, and they're realizing that treatment, the way that our medicine is set up, is that, like, we're going to stretch as many days as you can. But if those days are full of pain and suffering, like, why, again, like, I wouldn't let my cat go through that. And on the same. It's the same people having that argument against, like, euthanasia or medically assisted suicide, things like that. The same people that are having that argument have no issue violating the Hippocratic oath to help a woman who's actively miscarrying. She's got to go septic first before they're willing to help her. This makes me think of the Terri Schiavo case. I can't remember what year that was, early 2000s, where she was brain dead, living on a feeding tube. And it was this big debate between her husband and her family between keeping her Alive, letting her pass away. And I remember there was so much conflict in my church over this. This was a big talking point for a long time. And people were so upset that euthanasia could even be considered. And it was like, well, what did she want? Because I can tell you that if I get to the end of my life, and I am, I can't feed myself, I can't move, I can't speak. I do not want to exist like that. And I think that every person should have that right to say, under these conditions, I do not want to be on life support. I do not want to be on a feeding tube, the same way that we can have do not resuscitate orders. And I think that if someone has terminal cancer or a really progressive, painful disease, like, they shouldn't have to just suffer or be so doped up they can't function at the end of their life. I absolutely agree with that. And I think that that's something again, because we live in a culture that doesn't want to talk about death. And then we live in this culture of Christian nationalism that says, well, you can't interfere with God, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and it's like, we inter. You know, I was, like, wearing your seatbelt. Interfering with God. You know, if you're supposed to die in a car accident, like, it's just this weird, archaic idea of control. It's really about not allowing people to have agency, which I think at the end of their life is maybe the time they should have the most agency.
- [56:29]
B
Yeah, definitely. And, you know, to your point, the people that are like, you know, you. You can't interfere with God's plans. You are hooked up to a damn machine. That's the only thing keeping you alive. That's not God keeping you alive. Because the second you pull them off, you know they're going to die. So that's God's will. That kind of mental gymnastics just amazes me.
- [56:59]
A
Well, and it's like with Adriana Smith, who died, and they kept her on an incubator until they could cut her baby out of her. It's the most horrific dystopian. What the hell are we doing right now? That is something I thought would only ever exist in a science fiction film. Like, horrific. And this idea of, like, desecrating her body, keeping her as a dead incubator. Yeah. Until that can happen. And. And what it did to her family. And her family has to shoulder the medical burden, even though they did not want to keep her on life support for four Months is just. It's. Again, it's so hypocritical. It's mental gymnastics, and it's. It's really sad. And especially in her case. You can't take organs from someone unless they have a written directive to be an organ donor before they die. So how in the world can you justify using someone as an incubator? You're giving her less rights and less autonomy than you do every other dead body. Which is crazy.
- [58:08]
B
Yeah. The stuff we're seeing these days is absolutely insane. I do want to jump back, though, because I do find that semantics are so important, especially when it comes to things like trying to fight for medical aid and dying. You had said medically assisted suicide, and that is kind of a toxic term. And so now it's really called medical aid and dying or death with dignity.
- [58:39]
A
I love that. Thank you for pointing that out. I didn't know that.
- [58:43]
B
Yeah. It's just really important because it is kind of. People hear the word suicide and they immediately will turn on, you know, shut off that conversation.
- [58:54]
A
And I can see that, because that's even. Even in my mind, I'm like, ooh, that's a harsh name for it. I didn't know that it had another one, but thank you. Because even I've learned so much over the last few months with my platform and things. You know, you say things and you don't realize implications, and then people point them out and you're like, oh, I need to rephrase that. Didn't know. Now I have this new information. I can do something differently. So it's medical aid in death or death with dignity.
- [59:23]
B
Medical aid in dying.
- [59:24]
A
Okay.
- [59:26]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, there. It's not one of those where you can just decide one day, hey, I'm done, and go to the doctor and get medication. There are.
- [59:37]
A
Yeah. The implications are very different. That's so true.
- [59:40]
B
Yes. Yes. And so it really is a true process. You do have to have a doctor buy into it and say, you know, hey, we talked about this. We realize that there's no treatment that's going to help now right now, because that is not legal in every state. The only thing that is constitutionally protected, a constitutionally protected way of hastening death is by fasting, was something called voluntarily stopping eating and drinking. And so you'll hear a lot of people opt for that. And I'm seeing that a lot more lately as people want to take ownership of the way that they die.
- [60:31]
A
That's also so tragic, too, though, that, like, your only option is to starve yourself.
- [60:38]
B
Yeah. Again, we wouldn't do that to our pets. We would never do that. And that's when. When you opt for something like that. It's another time when hospice care is so crucial because they do give you the medications to help the body deal with the shutting down of the system because it is a, you know, a slower process as the body shuts down one system at a time.
- [61:07]
A
And how does your work overlap with hospice care? How do you work in conjunction with them?
- [61:14]
B
That's such a great question. Thank you so much for that. Because a lot of times people think that we compete with hospice, and that's definitely not the case. We work hand in hand with hospice and we offer completely different services. Being non medical, I'm just there to advocate for my clients. Hospice nurse, a hospice social worker, they want to do the same thing. They don't have as much time.
- [61:42]
A
Yeah.
- [61:43]
B
So I get to come in and support them. I get to take the time to help educate the family on their options for advance directives. Maybe help explain some of the conversations that have been had that a nurse maybe did not have the time to. To fully go through those kinds of things. Yeah. Yes. It's a really nice partnership.
- [62:06]
A
And what I love, too, I was thinking back to what you said about how traditionally and when we look at ancient cultures, this was a frequent process. And a lot of cultures specifically had non family members come in to handle, like making sure the family had food, making sure the burial and building a casket, and all those things were done by non family members so that the family could grieve and so that the family didn't have to shoulder that burden. It was much more of a village mentality. But it also makes me think of. Because doulas, both in birth and in death, have traditionally been women, they were also a targeted group in the witch trials because traditionally what we would now consider ob gyn type of care in this sphere of birth and death and medicine was a woman's role. And these were traditions that were passed down orally from grandmother to mother to daughter. And in the witch trials, it was considered witchcraft. And they would often. Doulas were often arrested for they would make claims that they killed the mother or they killed the baby, even though, you know, it was like a 50% infant mortality rate. And they would also arrest these end of life doulas claiming that they were murdering people, when really all they were doing was trying to help people have this safety. And it's so interesting to see in my perspective, that a Lot of these traditions we see in ancient cultures, pagan cultures, pre Judaism are starting to come back. These traditional female roles that women held that were persecuted again. And the excuse was that they were acting in defiance of God, which was not the case. They were simply providing comfort and medicine.
- [63:57]
B
Right.
- [63:59]
A
And so do you have a network of like women who are also in this field? Is this something that you're seeing grow as you've been doing this and as these kind of traditions are starting to rise back up?
- [64:14]
B
Yes, definitely. And I'm really happy to say that you're seeing men and trans people get involved in this care and I think that that's so important. And you're also seeing young people get involved. So I know doulay here that is 24.
- [64:35]
A
Wow.
- [64:35]
B
And so that's so important because you think about how many young people are diagnosed with terminal illnesses and they may not relate to a 50 year old woman.
- [64:47]
A
Yeah.
- [64:48]
B
And so I do love that. And I see this especially in Dallas because obviously that's where I am. But I do hear these stories across the country that we're building communities. And so here in North Texas, I've worked with a few other doulas to start Death Collective, North Texas. And it's this wonderful support system and, you know, educational outreach group to really teach people about the work that we do. And that is bringing a lot of different people in. And that's really exciting because there's also like a lack of competition in this work. Because as much as, you know, I couldn't help everyone in the Dallas area with their dying if I wanted to. It's so large. And I also, I mean, you know, look at me. I'm not going to be the doula for everyone. And so it's nice to be able to have a group where I can tell a family, I'm not going to be the person to support you. Or they tell me you're not the person to support us. And I'm still able to say, but I want you to have the best death possible. So I'm going to help you find, find someone. Here are the doulas that I know in the area that after talking with you, I think might be a good fit. Let's connect you and let you interview them. I think working with a doula is very much like finding a spouse. You probably don't want to marry the very first person you go on a date with. So I like to offer free consultations where we can just get to know each other, find out what kind of support you're looking for, see if we mesh. And there are times where it's just not a good fit. And that's okay.
- [66:42]
A
Yeah. And it's not. And it's because it is really about like what they need. Right. Because this is their, their journey. And I, I love hearing that young people are getting involved because that is something I was thinking about, you know, because you do hear about 20 and 30 year olds who end up with terminal cancer or, you know, and being supported by someone that you do feel connected with or that you feel like understands you. And I also, I also could see the benefit of someone who is elderly who like having someone like just the meaningfulness of this young person coming in to take care of me, especially maybe if that person lost a child or anything, any kind of experiences like that in their life, how healing that could be. That's really, I'm happy to hear that. Not just that this profession is growing, but that these services are available and people are having these conversations. So for like the listeners on the podcast, what are some of the lessons you've learned about death in this journey that you would want people to know just as they go about their life, maybe as their parents are elderly, what are some of the kind of the beautiful things you've learned about it and things that you just want people to be aware of.
- [68:00]
B
Goes back to that. Finding joy. Don't be afraid to think about your death. So many people think if they think about it or they talk about it, they're going to manifest it. I talk death all day, every day, and I am still breathing. So, you know, this is not how it, that's just not how it works. And so I do think making sure that your plans are in place so that your family, your loved ones know how you want to be cared for and they know how you want to be celebrated. I think those really are, you know, two of the, two of the best lessons. I do also want to go back. We were talking about young people and then these conversations and Monty, I want to tell you this story. I host these Death Cafes in Dallas and Death Cafe is not my invention. It's an international organization and, and they do, we do wonderful talks across the country and it's, you know, volunteer hosts that just open up a safe space for people to have these conversations about death, dying, grief, whatever that looks like for them. Very organic conversations. There's never a set topic or anything. So I've been hosting them now in Dallas. It'll be two months, I mean, two years this month. And my very first one I thought at, I was like 48 at the time. I'm going to be the youngest person there and the healthiest. The only people that are going to want to talk about death are old dying people. I could not have been more wrong. I was like the oldest person in the room. It was. I had people in their early 20s and my initial thought and I asked the question, you know, I didn't think about my mortality. I was immortal. At your age, was it the pandemic that has caused you to think more about your mortality? And I remember one attendee looked at me and it was. You could see on her face, it was like, oh, you sweet little naive old lady. Into the said, we've known since the first day of school that we could die at any moment. Somebody could come in and shoot us dead at any moment. We've prepared for it. That was two years ago. I still get goosebumps. That was a kick in the gut for an old lady like me. Like, what have we done to the kids and what country? She was almost not even phased by it. Just like, yeah, it's just not. That's just how it is. But it took my breath away. So that's almost a double edged sword though, because at the same time I was like, fuck yes, y' all are preparing for this. You're gonna die with as much dignity as possible and your loved ones are going to be cared for in their grief.
- [71:16]
A
Yeah.
- [71:16]
B
Because you're so aware. So yeah, it was still. Still chokes me up.
- [71:23]
A
Wow, that's heartbreaking.
- [71:26]
B
Yeah.
- [71:26]
A
And I wouldn't, I mean, as someone in their 30s, I wouldn't have seen that answer coming either. And it is, but it is. There is this beauty to what I love about this conversation, kind of going back to what we started with, is that all of this, you know, kind of honoring of death and the beauty in it. Right. It's your transition to the next thing to your next space. As we've talked and we got past those initial first questions, there's no, it's not about fear and punishment and you deserve. It's about what's next and joy and grief. Which like, you know, I tell people especially. Cause I was the first of my friends that lost my parents and my grandparents. And so as their parents have started to pass away, they reach out to me and what I tell them. I was like, you know, I'm crying in the subway or I was crying in the middle of the grocery store and I was like, listen, tears are grief that just lost their home. And they're just trying to find a new place. And there's this kind of, you know, like, grief is the toll we pay for how much we can love people. And I love that. This conversation. And the reason I wanted to have this conversation with you is because within religious communities in particular, but Christian fundamentalism is. There's all this fear and trauma, punishment, evil tied to death, when in reality, it's just something we all experience. It's something we all go through. It can be something really magical and really beautiful when we're prepared for it and when we live our life with this awareness that this is coming. And I know it's coming. And because I know it's coming, I'm gonna be as kind and as joyful and as loving as I can. That is like. I don't know. I have, like, this feeling in the pit of my stomach right now that is just. It's so comforting. As someone who has experienced so much death in my life, I am just in awe and so deeply appreciative of the work you do, because that is something that is such an underserved community, and it's an underserved topic. And you're hosting talks to help people face this reality. And. And what does, like, your, you know, your family and friends, how do they interact with this career that you have? I can't even call it a career. It's like. It's like a calling. It doesn't feel like a career. It's like, this is a calling.
- [74:24]
B
Yeah, it's a calling. But a girl still got bills to pay.
- [74:28]
A
Exactly that, too.
- [74:29]
B
Yeah. And, you know, and so that is one thing that is funny. And then I'll get back to you to your original question, but that one of the hardest things as a death doula, and you hear this with everyone that is starting to do the work or is thinking about the work. Is. But how do you charge for that? Like, it's hard work. Isn't that hard? And at first it is. And then you start thinking about the way we spend our money without even questioning our hairdressers get over $100 and nobody even bats an eyelash.
- [75:04]
A
Yep.
- [75:04]
B
Massage therapists, things like that. So why, you know, why shouldn't we all?
- [75:10]
A
I worked as a personal trainer for 15 years.
- [75:13]
B
You know, like, yeah, nobody probably even thought twice about paying you. And so once I realized that, it was much easier for me to honor the work. Work that I do. And then, you know, hearing people say how helpful it was to them also really helped with that so now I've already forgot your original question. Monty, I'm so sorry.
- [75:37]
A
It's okay. I was asking about how your family and friends kind of interact with your calling.
- [75:43]
B
Yeah, thank you. So that. Yeah, that's a mixed bag. My mom, every time I'm like, yes, I got a new client, she's like, oh, that's wonderful. Oh, wait, I don't. I don't know what I'm supposed to say. And I'm like, mom, they're gonna die with or without me, so at least they have my support. It's okay to say, you know, it's okay to be happy for them to have that support and for me to have a continuing. You know, a job. Yeah, yeah. And then I have people that, you know. I have an aunt that will not talk about what I do. She doesn't want to hear about it, doesn't want to read about it. When I'm in magazines or anything, it's like, no, because she's afraid it's going to manifest it. And again, no, it doesn't work. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If that were the case, then, you know. Million dollars. Million dollars. Million dollars.
- [76:38]
A
I'm just gonna think about a million dollars all the time. And before we wrap up, for people that are listening who maybe have a really big fear of death, and maybe that's connected to religious trauma, maybe it's not. Are there any books that you would recommend people read, kind of dealing with death and the. The comfort of death, facing death, or any resources that people can find as they start to kind of think about this? Or maybe they're in a grief cycle and want to start inquiring about that.
- [77:12]
B
Yeah, great question. Thank you so much. So there. There are quite a few. There's a couple of books that I really, really enjoy. For Alua Arthur, she's written a book called Beautifully Perfectly Human, and it's an incredible book about not only her journey of becoming a doula and the lessons she's learned, but just about looking for those little moments of joy in life. So I really. I find that book amazing. If you liked audiobooks, I highly recommend it because as she narrates it, and you can just. You can feel her energy and her passion. It's very, very beautiful. And then there's also the Beginner's Guide to the End. And I think it's just a really. Almost a dummy's guide to dying, you know, and it talks about how to prepare for things, to think about, alternatives to traditional burials and funerals. And so it's A really good read. It's a really good read and it's not heavy. And so I really like those two. If you're wanting to have conversations, I highly Recommend looking@deathcafe.com to see if there are deaf cafes in your area or if there are any being held virtually that work with your schedule and if you don't find one, maybe start one. They're really easy to host. You don't have to be a doula to have these conversations. You just have to have a willingness and a desire to promote a safe space for people to have these conversations. So no special training or anything. And then get your shit together. You know, give yourself that honor, give your family that gift. And you know, here in the Dallas area, I do the end of life planning parties. So it doesn't have to be this scary. One on one. We get together in a group. I tell funny stories because there's some really funny stories about death and dying and funerals and, you know, an 85 year old woman who wanted to be buried in her finest lingerie because she was going to meet her husband when she gets back upstairs. Oh my God, that's amazing. And so, you know, there's some really great things and it doesn't have to be scary. Take the taboo out of it. We're all going there, so let's enjoy the ride. Pardon me?
- [79:51]
A
Oh, I curse all the time. You don't have to. You don't have to sit myself here.
- [79:54]
B
I watch these. Yeah. So, you know, let's enjoy the ride. Let's talk about it. Why not?
- [80:02]
A
It makes a lot more sense to talk about it than to pretend it's not real until it's. That's staring you in the face.
- [80:08]
B
Yeah, yeah. And then connect with a doula in your area. We're all over the country, there's a doula for everyone if you're interested in the work. We need more doulas. Everyone's dying, so we need.
- [80:23]
A
Everyone's going there.
- [80:25]
B
Yeah. So connect to a doula and find out where to get good training and things like that.
- [80:33]
A
Yeah, that's amazing. And also I'm kind of realizing, you know, we mentioned at the top of the interview that we'd been trying for a couple months to do this. And as we've gone through this conversation, I realized that the timing is so perfect in so many ways. You know, how people are feeling and thinking kind of collectively. But I just passed the anniversary of my dad's death and it's just one of those years where it Just felt a lot heavier and it was very introspective. And there's been a lot of healing in my relationship with my dad since his death. And I just, you know, I'm sitting here thinking about, you know, having someone like you in the room for someone like me, as I was at that time in the shock of it and in the, in the midst of it. And it's just such incredible, like, sacred holy work that you're doing. It truly is. And I think that there's a lot of people that this conversation would be really uncomfortable to have in a one on one situation, but you can listen to two ladies chat about it and talk about those things, and it opens the door and also relieves some of that, some of that fear and some of that trauma that comes with these conversations. And I'm just in awe of what you do. I'm so deeply grateful. And thank you also for correcting my terminology so I can be better in the future. I love learning things like that because I do want to be always, always improving. And without those conversations, I don't get better. And so where can everyone find either information? If they're in the Dallas area, where do they find your business contact you follow, you resources you want to give them? What are those things?
- [82:29]
B
Someone, thank you so much. I really appreciate those kind words. And as somebody who feels like I've learned so much from you, it's just such an honor to feel like that I've given something back to you a lot. And so also thank you for this space that, that you provide people like me to get to learn when I feel like I had really shut off learning anything about religion and, and you've really helped me grow as a person. So thank you for that. As far as me, I mean, I made it real easy to find me. I'm just Dallas Death doula. So you can't, you can't miss me. My, my daughter told me the other day. She's 12. Mom. I googled you. You're a celebrity. It's a little different. Yeah, but. Yeah, so just Dallas Death doula for the collective here in North Texas. It's Dallas. Dallas Deaf Collective, North Texas. And that's a great place to find conversations here in the area. If you're looking in your area, there's probably a lot of doulas in your area. Maybe death collectives again. The death cafes are wonderful. I do host two here in Dallas, one in Farmer's Branch the second Thursday of every month. And then my longest running one is at Union coffee. And it's the last Tuesday of every month. And this month we're doing our two year anniversary. So tap some of those conversations. There's really good community there. I have people that have come every single month for two years. And so, yeah, it's really nice.
- [84:16]
A
That's incredible. So, Brittna, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for what you do. And if anyone is looking for more resources, please look her up. Find the death cafes. You can also email. The new email for Flipping tables is just infoontimader.com Remember that Monty is spelled with an E. Have these conversations, lean in a little bit. Start thinking about how rich life can be no matter how long it is, and keep your eyes forward and upward. And Brittna, thank you so much for this and for everyone listening. I will see you next week on Flipping Tables.