Flipping Tables – Episode 34: "The Bible Says! – With Dr. Dan McClellan"

Host: Monte Mader
Guest: Dr. Dan McClellan
Release Date: September 25, 2025

Overview

In this engaging, information-packed episode, Monte Mader sits down with Dr. Dan McClellan—scholar, social media myth buster, and bestselling author of The Bible Says So. Monte and Dan explore what the Bible actually says versus how it’s used in modern debates, from historical context and textual contradictions to hot-button topics like abortion, LGBTQ rights, and Christian nationalism. Drawing from Dan’s academic background and recent work, they offer listeners a refreshing blend of historical-critical scholarship and practical tools for understanding the Bible in today’s world.

1. Dr. Dan McClellan’s Journey and Mission

[03:16–15:44]

TikTok & Public Scholarship

• Origin as a TikTok scholar: Dan started on TikTok during the pandemic after seeing widespread biblical misinformation. Surprisingly, there was a massive appetite for reliable, scholarly insight into the Bible’s meaning across social media.
  • "I could see there were different kind of clicks...apologists, conspiracy theorists, deconstructionists, militant atheists...but I didn’t see any credentialed experts." (05:12)
  • TikTok allowed Dan to reach an audience that traditional blogs and platforms never did.
  • Core approach: “Data over dogma”—truth and consensus over ideology.

Terms Defined: Scholar vs. Theologian vs. Apologist

• Scholar: Analyzes and critiques theology, does not prescribe beliefs.
• Theologian: Engages normatively—tells others how to interpret the Bible and believe in God.
• Apologist: Defends their faith/tradition, prioritizing its views.
  • “While I am frequently accused of being an apologist for Mormonism, I am the furthest thing.” (08:27)

Academic Background & Motivation

• Four degrees: Ancient Near Eastern Studies (BYU), MA in Jewish Studies (Oxford), MA Biblical Studies (Trinity Western), PhD Theology & Religion (Exeter).
• Inspired by first reading the entire Bible before serving an LDS mission.
  • “I just fell in love with being in that world and particularly the gospels...I wanted to know about the history, the geography, the languages, the literature...” (12:23)
• Goal: Understand the Bible historically, not just theologically.

2. Key Historical and Textual Insights

The Divine Council & Polytheism in Ancient Israel

[15:44–28:56]

• “Elohim,” the plural form, references a council of gods and an ancient worldview akin to neighboring cultures.
  • “So the idea is basically that God is standing among the divine council and telling them, 'let us make humanity in our image.'” (17:41)
• Early Israel wasn't strictly monotheistic; polytheism gave way to monolatry as the Israelite god was rhetorically elevated.
  • Host: “Is the scholarly consensus that ancient Israel, like other nations, were polytheistic?”
    Dan: “Yes.” (21:09)

Composition of Genesis and the Hebrew Bible

• Documentary hypothesis: Most early prose in the Hebrew Bible likely dates to the late 9th or more commonly 8th century BCE.
• Genesis 1 (Priestly, later, transcendent God) vs. Genesis 2–3 (Anthropomorphic, earlier, “Yahwist/Non-P”).
  • “The Adam and Eve story...is a different creation account from what we have in Genesis 1. And I think it's an earlier creation account...” (24:45)
• Contradictions deliberately exist between creation accounts.
  • “If we look at these two creation accounts ... Genesis 1 is rejecting the complementarian worldview that is expressed in Genesis 3.” (27:06)
  • Biblical univocality—a modern myth.

God’s Wife: Asherah and Ancient Religious Politics

[28:56–36:52]

• Ancient Israelites worshiped Asherah as Adonai’s consort; evidence comes from inscriptions and artwork (e.g., Kuntillet Ajrud).
  • “We have ancient Hebrew inscriptions ... that refer to Adonai and his Asherah, his wife, the female deity.” (30:49)
• Campaigns against Asherah and exclusive worship of Yahweh/Jerusalem temple align with Josiah’s political reforms (late 7th century BCE).
  • “Suddenly Josiah's making it so there's only one deity that you're allowed to worship in one temple using one priesthood.” (34:24)

Notable Quote

“It's amazing to see how much humans change and don't change, that we do a lot of the same things ... usually for someone's benefit.” — Monte [36:52]

3. The Bible and Modern Hot-Button Issues

Abortion and Personhood

[40:47–49:03]

• Evangelical anti-abortion stance is modern, rooted in political, not biblical, history.
  • “Jerry Falwell enlisted the help of Paul Weyrich, and they concocted this scheme...to get evangelicals outraged about abortion so that they could gin up political support...” (41:02)
• In the Bible, personhood begins at birth (Exodus 21: fine for miscarriage, life-for-life if mother dies).
  • “The fetus is considered property because its loss only incurs a fine and the loss of the mother would incur the death penalty.” (42:40)
• Only in the 1800s did the Catholic Church shift to “life at conception.”
  • Augustine: personhood and soul at "quickening," not conception.

Homosexuality & the Bible

[52:24; 52:35–64:49]

• The Bible doesn’t address trans people; eunuchs are treated as a special category later, welcomed by God (Isaiah, Matthew 19).
• Biblical writers didn’t have a concept of orientation. Leviticus addresses certain acts, not loving same-sex relationships. Female same-sex acts are ignored.
• Paul (Romans 1) does refer to same-sex acts, but within his extreme ascetic, end-times outlook—marriage is only for those who can't manage lifelong celibacy. Modern selective literalism ignores most of Paul's sexual ethic.
  • “For those Second Temple Jewish folks who were saying, it’s only for procreation. Paul was like, eh...if you need to have sex to stop yourself from...whatever sexual immorality...then get married so you can have that occasional passionless prophylactic sex.” (58:19)

Women, Modesty, and Authority

• Biblical modesty references (in the pseudo-Pauline Pastorals) are about socioeconomic status, not covering skin.
  • “Modest means...not dressing with ostentatious displays of wealth and status...Zero passages...tell women they have to cover any part of their bodies in order to prevent men from lusting.” (63:05–64:40)
• Pseudo-Pauline letters (Timothy, Titus) are very likely not written by Paul.
  • “The language is very, very different. If you isolate all the non-people and place names...a third of the words...are unique to the Pastoral epistles.” (61:39)

Corporal Punishment and Childhood

[66:20–70:03]

• Proverbs does endorse corporal punishment (a rod for discipline), though many modern apologists attempt gentle reinterpretations.
  • “That is something that the Bible endorses in the Book of Proverbs. And it's just wrong.” (68:12)

Embracing Messiness and Contradictions

• The Bible both condones and represents ancient violence, gender roles, slavery, etc.
  • "If you want to be honest, you have to let the Bible be messy ... I'm not gonna take this ancient culture and just carte blanche, say, yep, we're gonna do everything these people that didn’t know what a microwave was." — Monte (70:03–73:32)
• All believers, including strict literalists, selectively ignore (often unconsciously) parts of the Bible.
  • “I think a lot of people find that once they can come to grips with that, [it’s] quite liberating because it means that the Bible is not in charge.” (71:39)

4. Advice for Engaging with the Bible Today

[76:48–78:52]

• Access is improving, but public scholarship must do better.
• Recommended resources:
  • Study Bible: Updated NRSV, especially the SBL Study Bible.
  • Introductory book: A History of the Bible by John Barton.
  • Commentaries: Hermeneia, Anchor Yale Bible series.

5. Listener Q&A and Mythbusting

On Lilith and Genesis

[79:12–83:13]

• The myth of Lilith as Adam’s first wife in the Alphabet of Ben Sira—an attempt to harmonize two creation stories.
  • “She says, dominant position. I want to be on top. And Adam says, you're not fit to be on top. Only I am...and she [Lilith] storms out of the Garden of Eden.” (79:50)
• Lilith becomes a folkloric symbol of independence and sexual freedom, but was not a mainstream doctrinal view.

Sexual Dominance in Ancient Views

• Penetration and social hierarchy: Ancient cultures based sexual taboos on dominance/submission, not orientation.
  • “It would have been emasculating and feminizing the person taking the receptive role.” (81:55)

6. Notable Quotes and Moments

• On Contradictions:
  “That would be miraculous if it were even remotely true. But it’s not...there are very clearly numerous contradictions.” — Dan [28:03]

• On selective interpretation:
  “The reality is the Bible is not in charge for anybody. Even the strictest literalist rejects an awful lot of what the Bible says because it doesn't serve their interests.” — Dan [71:49]

• On modern harm:
  “If you have a reading of the Bible that compels children to take their own lives, that's wrong...find yourself a new God.” — Dan [73:40]

7. Final Thoughts & Further Resources

[84:04–end]

• Monte highly recommends Dan’s book The Bible Says So and the podcast Data Over Dogma.
• Dr. McClellan offers online courses in Biblical Hebrew and is developing more resources for the public.
• Connect with Dr. Dan McClellan: TikTok/Instagram/Twitter/YouTube @maklelan, maklelan.org
• Closing:
  • “I learned so much from you… you make a living talking about the Bible without indoctrination or demonizing. And that has been so healing for me as a person...” — Monte [86:07]

8. Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------|------------| | Dr. Dan’s Media Work and Credentials | 03:16–11:20| | Starting with the Bible (LDS Mission) | 11:20–14:27| | Divine Council, Plural Elohim | 15:44–23:35| | Source Criticism, Genesis Contradictions | 21:39–28:56| | Asherah, God’s Wife in Ancient Israel | 29:09–36:52| | Modern Use/Misuse of the Bible | 36:52–47:11| | Abortion in the Bible | 40:47–49:03| | Homosexuality, Trans Issues | 52:35–64:49| | Corporal Punishment, Messy Scriptures | 66:20–73:32| | Resources for Critical Engagement | 76:48–78:52| | Lilith and Sexual Dominance Myths | 79:12–83:13|

9. Tone and Style

Monte and Dan maintain a conversational, often humorous, and direct tone throughout, with Monte’s personal history grounding the dialogue and Dan’s straight-shooting scholarship dispelling myths and misinformation without condescension.

End summary. For further reading: Start with Dan’s book, explore the recommended resources, and check out his podcast and social media for more myth-busting!