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- [00:00]
A
Today is September 19th, and the last week and a half has been maybe the most difficult week in this work that I've experienced as a fairly new new person to this space. We witnessed the assassination of Charlie Kirk, the changes in the administration, the announcement of a new patriotic civics course, the firing of Jimmy Kimmel for voicing an opinion, declarations of resistance groups being terrorist groups. And it's been a lot, and I understand that it's been a lot. And I'm very excited to have this next guest come on. So if you're wondering why in the previous episodes I didn't talk about what was going on with Charlie Kirk, it was because this is the first recording I'm making after his death, and we're gonna talk about that. And today I have a very special guest that I met through social media. Her name is Caroline Stout, and also, like me, a former conservative. A former conservative who in fact, used to work for Turning Point in the first Trump administration. And today we're gonna focus not just on her journey and both of our deconstructions, but on healing. There's a lot of people who follow my platform who are either former conservatives and some are former maga, and some people are lost and they're confused and they're scared. And we are gonna talk all about that and talk about how do we have these conversations in the midst of a time where things are spiraling into a fever pitch? How do we reground ourselves into the foundation of why movements like this exist in the first place? And that reason is belonging. The same thing that every single person wants on the earth is to belong to something, to feel like they matter, to feel like their voice matters. We're going to talk a lot about deconstructing, healing, crossing the bridge into new knowledge today on flipping tables. Now, before I dive into this interview, I'm not going to make any Patreon announcements today. I am just going to address kind of the glaring elephant in the room since I haven't had a chance to speak about it on a podcast yet. And that's the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And I know that I've gotten a lot of messages from people who are panicked and scared and there's so much going on and a lot of insanity in the Capitol and, you know, the flags at half mast and the commemoration, and I've had a lot of people ask me more directly what my views are or criticize my views. And my. My view is this. It's horrific. And I saw the video. I wish I hadn't And I fully support free speech. Even though I didn't agree with Charlie Kirk at all. I still don't think that he deserved to die that way. I also know that he died on an altar that he built. That he lived in this way of promoting and pushing violence and rhetoric and reaction. Again, I'm not saying that he deserved any of that, but I'm also not going to eulogize him. I'm not going to lie and say that he didn't say the things that he did. I'm not going to lie and say that he didn't push hateful rhetoric on a lot of people, people of color, especially women of color, black women, gay people, trans people. I'm not going to negate the harm that has been perpetrated on those people because someone died. And I can also stand and say I can't believe that I live in a country where this is becoming the norm. And I will point out the hypocrisy of the lack of concern and care. When Melissa and Mark Hortman were assassinated, there were no flags at half mast. There wasn't even a call from the president because he refused to call Governor Walz because he ran on the ticket against him. And it's also completely normal to have nuanced and complex feelings about something like that. You can be horrified by it and also be horrified by the things that Charlie Kirk promoted. You can be hurt and scared because you don't know what the fallout is gonna be and also not be embracing it. You can not mourn, especially if you're a member of the groups that were demonized by this person, by his movement. I just wanna take a minute to acknowledge it because I didn't get a chance to. This is my first recording since it happened. And to sit in this community and let you know that last week there's. I mean, I always get rape and death threats, but I've gotten way more, much more serious ones. My personal address and my phone number, personal, private information about me was released online. I had to leave town for a few days. And none of that matters in the sense that I will not be stopping, because now more than ever, is when we need to be having conversations and pushing back. There was a bill proposed in Congress last week that would allow for the Secretary of State to deny you or refuse to grant a reissuing of your passport if they deem that you are aiding and abetting any terrorist group. And what they specified was that if you protest Israel, you can lose your passport. And then shortly after that Donald Trump says that Antifa is a terrorist organization, which is just anti fascism. So despite the fear and despite knowing and understanding that there is inherent personal risk to me doing this, I don't care. I will continue to do so. I hope that you continue to do so. And I hope you sit with those complex feelings and those hard conversations this whole episode. The reason I invited Caroline on today was not because of Charlie Kirk's death, but because of the bridge, the chasm that is developing in politics right now. And the fact that the hard conversations are the scariest they've ever been right now. They're also the most important that they've ever been right now. And I hope that this episode gives you some peace and some clarity, especially for those of us. I'm going to make a personal call. If you are a white person who has left Christian fundamentalism and Christian nationalism, it is especially important that we take the front line here because we know what it's like to be indoctrinated into a movement where we thought we were doing the right thing. We know how confusing and how much loss you feel when you get out where you lose your sense of self. We are the only group of people who, who know that journey in this way and also know how Christian nationalism and how Christian fundamentalism works. We know how it connects itself to white supremacy. We know what it does to women. It is our job. And part of the reason I take this so seriously, it is my job as a white person who contributed to this movement to stand on the front lines and try to do everything I can to undo it. So all that being said, my work will not change. My mission has not changed. And I hope that as you listen to this conversation about two real people who used to be part of this movement, we can talk about how do we have these conversations even now, even at the highest fever pitch? Because I don't want to live in a United States where this is the norm. I do not want to be in a situation where a one and a three year old have to grow up and eventually hear this story. I also don't want to live in a place where hateful, divisive, violent rhetoric is tolerated without question. And with that said, I'm going to welcome Caroline Stout. Caroline, welcome to Flipping Tables. Thank you so much for being here.
- [07:19]
B
Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.
- [07:22]
A
And so where are you located now? Are you still in Texas?
- [07:25]
B
I am still in Texas. I am living in the panhandle of Texas, like the very top, which is like super red. So I'm like, ultimate, ultimate little blue dot here in a very, very agricultural area. So it's pretty, pretty interesting.
- [07:41]
A
And where are you from originally?
- [07:44]
B
I'm originally from Houston, so I grew up in Houston and went to school at Texas A and M and then University of Oklahoma for law school. So I didn't really, didn't really travel that far away. This is the farthest I've ever lived from home. That's perfect.
- [07:57]
A
It's perfect. So, and I gave in your intro, you know, really talk about, you talk about being a blue dot in a red area now and you have in your Instagram profile recovering conservative. So talk to me a little bit about what your childhood was like. Like, what did you grow up as far in the context of, you know, what we're seeing now in religion? What did that look like for you as, as baby Caroline?
- [08:19]
B
Yeah, I think that my experience really does track a lot with a lot of other people's experience, at least from what I found with the people who've resonated with me so far online, where I grew up in a pre affluent, just good, like bubble conservative in the suburbs of Houston. So where, where I grew up, I went to a Baptist megachurch growing up. So one of those churches was like, I think now they're up to like seven big old campuses.
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A
Wow.
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B
I would be at church like Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night, like the whole thing just from a very young age. So I was always surrounded by a evangelical, like it was a diverse church community, but largely dominated by, you could probably say by whiteness. And it wasn't necessarily overtly political from the beginning, but I think that they did engage in a lot of, a lot of more subtle discussion of politics and patriotism. So from a very young age, a sense of patriotism in a sense of a mandate from God essentially was fused together from the starts, from, from a very young age. And so that was the, the church community I grew up in. And then my political origin really does coincide with that as well. I mean, my family was generally pretty politically active. Like the first time I ever engaged in political activism, I was four years old and block walking for a candidate. So, so we started, started out pretty young.
- [10:06]
A
That's incredible. And so as you, you know, you grow up in this environment, as you go to, like when you go to college and then grad school, how does some of that start to interact and change? And I know that you worked for Turning Point. When did that happen in your journey?
- [10:21]
B
Yeah, I can kind of go through the chronology because it really does lead up to that self reflection and deconstruction process. So I got involved with Turning Point when I was about 16, 17 years old. So pretty young, but old enough to start to be forming ideas and start to be wondering about the world, but not quite enough world and life experience to have much context or nuance for people that didn't look like me. And so I got involved with Turning Point by initially going to CPAC with them, which is the Conservative Political Action Conference. You're not as though, you know. Yeah, yeah, I. It was described to me at the time as like conservative Christmas or like the Republican Super Bowl. So like, it was. It's where everyone converges. And as someone who's 17 years old, I think by the time I went, I was probably 18. I think I just had stars in my eyes because I had seen all these people on Fox News and I was like, oh my gosh, that's Sean Hannity, that's Rand Paul. And being a little political nerd, I was like, oh my gosh, these are like my rock stars. And like getting to meet all these people. So by being involved with Turning Point, I felt more significant than I had prior to then. And I felt a little. I felt more seen and I felt like, oh, like I can play. I can be a person within this world that seems a lot bigger than the community that I grew up in. And so that, that sense of importance and that sense of belonging was really something that drew me in. Additionally being handed down a political ideology that had been neatly packaged for me that I could just put on that fit really well with my faith upbringing. It was a really easy role to step into without having to do any of the work to develop my own ideas. And so from there I went to Texas A and M for undergraduate, where I, in my second semester there, started working as a field staffer for Turning Point, where I would recruit people and I'd be like on campus with my little clipboard and my little table and have conversations with people. And it wasn't like the on campus debate that Turning Point and Charlie is most famous for. It really was just having discussions with people who looked like me, acted like me, where I could be like, oh yeah, you're a Republican, right? Like you agree with this, right? And it would just be like, oh, yeah, yes. And it was just very much focusing on finding, finding people that were pretty, pretty similar that would just sign up, sign up and join.
- [13:15]
A
And what were the next steps? Once they would join, then what Happened.
- [13:20]
B
Yeah. So I was one of the founding members of the Turning Point chapter at Texas A and M. So we would have. I guess at that point it was like monthly meetings, pizza, and, like, connect. And we would have, like, schedule people to table on campus with us, so recruit more people. We would host events with speakers, partner with other organizations to host speakers. And I really built a lot of my own social college experience within that conservative world. So, like, hanging out with the College Republicans, hanging out with the, like, Young Americas Foundation. So it was. Was pretty insular. And we. We invited people in, and it was really fusing this, like, political activism with. With your community and your. Your entire social. Social experience. So then after that, I interned for Turning Point, so lived in a house with a bunch of Turning Point people. And this was outside. Outside of Chicago, in the suburbs, and did a lot of media for them. So initially, as an intern, you're supposed to rotate through, but I started in media, and I guess they liked what I was doing. So I stayed within media and had the opportunity to photograph and video their conferences, write articles for them. And I felt like, oh, my gosh, this is my. This is my ticket in. Right? Like, this is something that I feel, like, seen like this. These significant people see that I exist and I can have a role within this organization. But with doing that, I became aware of just how. Just how subtle and subliminal a lot of the messaging was within the media that was being pushed out. Yeah, I was reading through some of my old articles a few days ago because I was kind of just trying to refresh my memory on the kind of content that I was myself writing. And it was describing people in ways that wasn't really necessary, like, being like this. Like, one. It was like, this atheist mom is suing her school district for, like, prayer. Like, just things like that. Where it's like, why does that. Why does that matter? Why are we focusing on that or focusing on liberal bias on campuses? Like, these things that are trying to. This language that is attempting to persuade the readers that there is this war against Christians and this war against conservatives. And that's when it. What really started to open my eyes was.
- [16:10]
A
Was really this, like, language that you were seeing kind of seep in.
- [16:15]
B
Exactly. Yeah. Well, I kind of. It kind of clicked for me. Whereas, like, thinking, oh, if I'm twisting things that really don't seem like that big of a deal and acting enraged about it, are other people in media doing the same thing? And I started to realize, hold on, is Fox News not objectively Reporting everything the way that they should be. Are they trying to get a message across? Are these other media outlets doing the same thing? Do they have an agenda? And it's. I started to realize, hold on, am I being duped? Like, am I, am I a part of this kind of machine? And I'm seeing it from the outside now for the first time after having been insulated inside this bubble, where. Echo chamber, of course, and where every. You, you play the role because you're conditioned to play that role. And I started to realize, oh, maybe this isn't all truth.
- [17:27]
A
It is. It's amazing how when you grow up in that environment where it's essentially Fox News tells the truth, everybody else is lying, and you're not taught any form of media literacy. Like, I have an older niece who's been asking me questions about, you know, what kind of articles do I trust? How do I know? And I was like, well, the first thing you do is, I was like, read the headline. What does the writer want you to believe from that headline? What is it that they want you to focus on? And so even teaching her that just with headlines has helped her because obviously media always has an inherent bias. But then it's the question of, is this intentional? How great is this bias? Is this trying to fuel, like a larger discussion? Because that's when we get into the idea of agenda. Um, but when you had this moment, so you're, I mean, because you're an intern, like you're in college, you're doing the thing, you have this realization. What did you, what were your next steps after realizing that?
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B
So it was a pretty, pretty internal process. It wasn't like I just walked out the door and said, hey, like, this is wrong, y' all are terrible, and I'm gonna fight against you now. It was, I mean, it took such a long time to be open to asking myself questions because I, like I said earlier, my political views and my faith were so fused together that I just could not question one without questioning the other and questioning my upbringing, both politically and religiously. So I knew that once I started asking questions that this was going to be such a big undertaking, that there was so, so much just interwoven together that I was really afraid to come at and start that question asking process. So a lot of it was just very slowly allowing skepticism to come in and allowing for myself to not take everything Fox News said as Bible truth and not take everything that like Charlie Kirk would say as, as Bible truth and start to really think about why. Why is this Being handed to me as absolute truth when they're saying that the other side is engaging indoctrination in indoctrination by doing the exact same thing.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So it's very, a very slow process. A very, I mean it took years to really undo a lot of the, the programming that goes into becoming a evangelical and conservative political activist.
- [20:19]
A
Yeah.
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B
Giving yourself, I mean the first step for me was giving myself permission to, to, to ask those questions. Like, not even like deciding from the outset, we're starting from scratch, we're burning it all down. Starting from scratch. It was the first big biggest step for me was just allowing myself, hey, I, I can work within my doubts and that's not a bad thing. And that's, it's gonna be difficult, but it's not inherently wrong.
- [20:53]
A
And I think that's one of the dangers. I love what you said about, you know, I was given this like religious political ideology that was prepackaged and I could just put it on. Like that's such a good analogy. Cause it's literally like just putting on a shirt like it's ready made, it's ready to go. I don't have to ask questions. Cause there's also this undertone in Christian nationalism, Christian fundamentalism. And you know, we see that with like James Dobson and Bill Gothard, like the umbrella of authority where it becomes, well, if I ask questions, if I defy my father, I'm defying God, if I defy my pastor, I'm defying God, if I ask questions, well then I don't have faith. And so it's not only a ready made system, it's also a system that says, you can't question me. Which is crazy because that's what faith is like. Faith requires doubt. Like, like you have to be able to not know for sure. And I think that that's, that's maybe the best analogy I've heard of how this system just becomes like your world. And you're so right that once you start to question the political side of it, because with people that deconstruct like it usually happens one side or the other, something happens with their faith. But if they, they know, if they question that, they have to question how they view politics in America or it's the other way around. For me, it was the other way around. It was, it was political like you. It was political and you know, kind of some of these foundational quote mark truths that I was being sold. But I knew that once I started dismantling that I had to question my, my Faith in this Christian, this form of Christianity that I had been sold. So how long were you working with Turning Point and, and what was your pivot after Turning Point?
- [22:34]
B
Yeah, I left working with Turning Point in mid, early mid 2017. So this is after Trump was elected for the first time. And it was, it also was a lot of the language that came up with, with the rise of Trump and that massive shift in 2016 from traditional conservatism to, to the quote, unquote conservatism that we see today, which.
- [23:02]
A
So military.
- [23:05]
B
Exactly. So militant. And so there's just this nastiness and this edge to it that, that really thrives off degrading people. Like at that time, the language was build the wall and lock her up those river. The refrains of the right at the time. And it's something that I, as somebody of faith, just could not reconcile. I couldn't reconcile. And it was that, that dissonance that, that also really spurred me to start asking those questions. And to your point too, about how like, asking those questions from. Feels like you're like speaking like opposing God. And it's completely a system by design to stop people from asking questions. But what really helped me in my journey was the realization that if my God and my faith and my politics are actually as strong as I want them to be, my little question asking and my little doubts are not going to impact them at all. And if God and my faith and my politics can't withstand my questions, then I don't believe anything, so I'll be better off for it. So it was really digging into those, digging into those questions. After I left Turning Point, I was a sophomore in college. Going into my junior year of college, um, and really letting myself let go of my preconceived notions and let go, let go of that and just allow myself to consider alternative perspectives. Because I'd been raised to believe that you can't be a Democrat and also be a Christian.
- [24:53]
A
Yep.
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B
That there is something mentally wrong with you if you are a Democrat, that there's something inherently evil if you are a Democrat. And I let myself consider, well, maybe the other side also just wants what's best for America and also is, is, is acting in good faith and is not like inherited by the devil and funded by George Soros. Like maybe, maybe it's not as, as evil as the right would like, like, like me to believe. And so it really was at that point that I started to, started to let myself go on this transformation journey, unplugging from conservative politics. Really kind of just withdraw from that world and looking. Looking for truth in different places. And it took a really long time for me to come to the peace that I'm at now with my political views. It's only really in the last couple years that I've been able to voice to my family, hey, I disagree with xyz because there was a lot of. A lot of shame and a lot of fear. A lot of. A lot of fear of my family being, you know, displeased. But at the end of the day, I would just, and still do have to tell myself if I, like, I have to follow my convictions. And that's. I can't. I. I can't not. Yeah, I can't not talk about it.
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A
I can't. It's. For me, it boils down to, like, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I hid the truth because of fear.
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B
Right.
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A
And I think some of that. And it sounds like you and I grew up similarly. Where there was this. There's this idea. So because of, again, Christian nationalism and fundamentalism getting married to the Republican Party, there's this idea of, yeah, you can't be a Christian and a Democrat. There's this idea of you can't question these things. And I love your comparison there, too, because I teach scholarly Bible studies now. And I tell people, I'm like, this is a space where I want you to question everything you hear. Because the truth will hold up to scrutiny if you can't ask questions. And it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It's not the truth. And I think it. It is. But there's this. And I was. And maybe you weren't raised with this. It sounds like you were. But, like, I was raised with this idea that, like, Democrats were demonic. And because God is on our side, anyone who opposes us is on Satan's side by default.
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B
Right.
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A
Which, like, gives you kind of carte blanche permission to treat people that are other however you want because they're demons, they're Satan, they're sent from Satan or whatever dialogue you use. And it really becomes a pathway to cruelty and violence and discrimination. And, I mean, we're seeing it, like, at a fever pitch now because even when I was, you know, and my family was very alt, right. Even when I was growing up, I would have never imagined to see what we're seeing now at that time. Like, it just would have seemed, you know, incredibly foreign. Again, this naive idea of that can't happen here, you know?
- [28:19]
B
Exactly.
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A
And so do you have any Moments when you were starting to deconstruct where you found out things that really surprised you, I find. I find, like, I look back on my deconstruction, I remember these moments where I read something or learned something where I was like, wait, what? Were there any of those moments for you?
- [28:36]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it is. Is in retrospect, a lot of it is looking back and identifying the perspectives or the things that I did not learn about growing up. I went to public school in Texas, and while I had fantastic teachers who were not trying to indoctrinate me, they weren't trying to portray things in a specific light. The curriculum still. Still is heavily biased. Like, looking back, I never. I never learned about the labor movement. I did not know anything about the labor movement. And growing up in Texas was taught that unions were violent and scary and they would kill people and burn down your house if you didn't join them. And so I was like, oh, unions are bad. I'm so glad I don't have to join a union. And so, like, it's crazy.
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A
It is. And we. And now we see the demonization of unions again. And, like, these references to the Gilded Age where I'm like, do you guys understand what corporations did to people when they tried to unionize?
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B
And now they're all for, like, all for the deregulation, all for, all for that. Because, I mean, because there's this idea of the government, like, you should be able to run your business in the way that you. You see fit. Like, you shouldn't have the government trying to stop you from making money and all this red tape stopping you from being success successful, when it's not the red tape that stops you from being successful, it's the big corporations. And so. So in retrospect, like, there's just so many. So many things where I'm just like, oh, my gosh. And I. I bought all of it. I bought all of it. I, like, accepted all of it. Is 100 truth. Like, I didn't learn about the Tulsa massacre and Tulsa, like, race riots until I was in law school. And the only reason I knew about it was because I went to law school in Oklahoma, and it came up one day. I was never. Never learned about that. Never learned about, like, black Wall street or anything like that or anything about the. Like, anything about the black liberation movement or anything whatsoever. And so it really does scare me now seeing this even further permeation of Prageru and Turning Point in the Heritage foundation into public education. Like, that that is very alarming to me because what I learned about the world, the facts were so skewed. 100% so skewed. And that. That's before where we are now.
- [31:13]
A
And as of today, you know, yesterday was when the Department of Education under Trump has now announced that they're teaming up with the Heritage foundation and Turning Point and Hillsdale College to create a, quote, patriotic civics course, which just means it's just gonna whitewash it more, lie about it more, and now it's gonna be forced into public schools. And I'm in the same boat that you did where, you know, I don't think that, you know. And granted, I went to all private Christian schools, so there was a little bit more skewing, you know.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But at the same time, my dad was an amateur historian, so he would. He would open these conversations, but I still barely learned anything about the civil rights movement. Like, MLK Jr. And Malcolm X were completely demonized in my household. You know, Malcolm X was this violent, militant, MLK Jr. We shouldn't listen to him because he had affairs, and I'm looking at them that all support Trump now. Like, excuse me, I have a question really quick, but I think that makes sense for me. Exactly. Like, that doesn't. I didn't learn about Tulsa until I was 28.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Had no idea. And then felt so stupid because I knew nothing about it. Didn't learn about the labor union. Didn't learn anything about women's suffrage other than women were able to vote in 1920 and then move on and didn't learn anything about what happened to indigenous people. Nothing.
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B
Oh, my gosh.
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A
I didn't know anything.
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B
I didn't either. And so when I went to law school in Oklahoma, which. You go to Oklahoma. Oklahoma. So conservative, obviously.
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A
Oh, I've been there.
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B
So red.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Especially. Especially with their. The current state superintendent of education, he's.
- [32:50]
A
Oh, yeah, the porn in the office guy. When he displayed it.
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B
Oh, yeah, exactly. Figure of morality, for sure. But I, fortunately, in law school, got to be on the American Indian Law Review, where I got to learn about boarding schools, and I got to learn about the forced sterilization of Native women.
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A
And, like, 40% of childbearing age Native American women were sterilized in the earliest 20th century.
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B
Like, exactly.
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A
Staggering numbers.
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B
Devastating. Absolutely. Like. Like sickening. Absolutely sickening. And that. Never learned about that, because in. In. In my, like, upbringing in my education, like, you learn about the Trail of Tears, and you have a day where you're kind of like, oh, that like, that's so sad that that happened to them. And then you move on.
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A
Yep. You get one day maybe.
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B
And you still. We still. You still have Columbus Day.
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A
Like, really well, because what I've realized, and especially seeing it now, and the ultra right know this. They know this. And I separate the ultra right from what I would consider traditional conservativism. I think there's.
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B
We've.
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A
We've crossed a chasm now. But the far right understands that you don't get to this Christian fundamentalist idea of American exceptionalism unless you lie. Because America is just like every other nation has committed the sins that every other empire has created. And you cannot get to this place of, oh, my God, we're a Christian nation and we're so perfect, and we've done everything right. And white guys are the best. Unless you lie. It's the only way.
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B
Yeah, exactly. Like, perfect picture of that is Donald Trump removing pictures of enslaved people from the national parks. And all of the censorship that's happening with the Smithsonian, like, it's. It's completely alarming. Like, I don't. Considering how whitewashed it was growing up, like, growing up going through public school, imagining it more whitewashed than that. I just don't. I don't see how. How we will lose an entire generation. We'll lose, like, to. To the right. And that's. That's what. That's the goal.
- [35:03]
A
That's the plan. Well, I mean, it's the thing that, you know, Hitler understood, Stalin understood. You know, you look at all of these authoritarian regimes, and they understand that you have to get people young because it's what Christian fundamentalists have been doing for decades. If you can get them when they're 3, 4, 5 years old, you can control the media, you can control the narrative. I've been doing a lot of talks about how the facts don't matter anymore as much as controlling the narrative does.
- [35:31]
B
Right, right. And that's something that Turning Point understood and engaged in, because I got involved back with them in 2014 when the focus was college students, college campuses, preventing liberal indoctrination on college campuses, which is education. Education, truth, critical thinking, other perspectives, diversity. Like, God forbid.
- [35:57]
A
Yeah.
- [35:57]
B
And you see Turning Point bringing that same indoctrination to younger and younger groups, because then they start focusing, focusing more on high school. And you have all these high school chapters then. Now they're pushing. I think they have, like, homeschool curriculum now. So, like, it's getting younger and younger and younger, and then the indoctrination of Women specifically, so that they can get the women, like to pass on that indoctrination from day one.
- [36:31]
A
Well, and also it's I. Because I grew up, I mean, I remember in the 90s, like before my dad realized I was smart, I was raised like my sisters, where your only purpose is to get married and have as many kids as possible. So that. And this came from my pastor's pulpit. We can outbreed the left, literally, what he said. So gross. But it was, but it was this idea of, as you know, are you a woman who wants to save the nation, have as many babies as possible and teach them this version of, you know, the truth. I'm very nervous about what's going on in public schools and I don't have a clear sense of how we as a collective push back because I don't believe that the majority of America wants this. I do not.
- [37:14]
B
I don't think so either.
- [37:17]
A
We've got this control group, though, that is just. And they will do whatever it takes to have their way.
- [37:24]
B
Right. Well, even in the past, in the past week, or a little bit more than a week now, since Charlie Kirk's assassination, I have been, I mean, just on my personal Facebook, you know, like, just get on there. I had to get off of it because I was like, y' all are.
- [37:42]
A
It's crazy.
- [37:42]
B
Piss me off, piss me off. But all of these people that, that I knew that I, that are the like non political people.
- [37:49]
A
Yeah.
- [37:50]
B
Are like memorializing Charlie, which is their right to do that. Like, it was a shocking, shocking event. And I feel like, I feel sick about it just because I did know him personally back in the day. But seeing all of these people who are not inherently political, just willingly memorialize and sanitize and canonize this person without knowing everything that he and the organization and that entire movement stand for.
- [38:22]
A
Sometimes they do and they don't care.
- [38:24]
B
Exactly. Like, to me, it's, it's the willingness, just the willingness to say, yes, that, like that, because that looks like me and that is pro, pro people I look like and identify with.
- [38:36]
A
Well, and even just like, it's the same thing that Trump did where like, Trump is very clearly not a Christian person, obviously, but he can hit enough of the talking points that people are like, okay, you said the right words. You said that we're not gonna persecute Christians anymore, even though that's never happened as long as they have the talking points. And what I think with. And you know, after Charlie's death, so many left leaning creators, myself included, were Doxxed threatened. I mean, I get death and rape threats all the time, but like, this was like up in a different level. People released my address, my phone numbers. There was lists of people. Some of those creators don't even live in the country. They're not left leaning, us creators. And there was this hu. You know, bomb threats to HBCUs, bomb threats of the DNC. There was this huge wave of violence before we even had a suspect. And it was just. That's why I kept telling people. I'm like, it doesn't matter who the suspect is, because we see them spinning that narrative as well. It was like, what matters is what they can do with the narrative. Because the things they're doing now, like, like firing Jimmy Kimmel for a comment that was not out of line at all. Like, at all.
- [39:42]
B
No, he's. He's a political satirist and comedian.
- [39:46]
A
Yeah. And he said it was an opinion. It wasn't. It wasn't an attack. It wasn't. It was literally a sentence. I didn't think it was inappropriate at all. But all of the censorship that they're now implementing is like, what they plan to do anyway. This just gave them a lot more leverage to do it. And, you know, there's been this. I've gotten a lot of messages, even from people I know here in town, about, oh, you were celebrating. I was like, I wasn't celebrating anything. I never wished death on him. But I'm also not gonna eulogize him. I'm not gonna pretend that he wasn't hateful and contributed to hateful rhetoric and abusive towards people who were immigrants or people of color or women. I'm not gonna do that. I'm like. And also, if his words make you uncomfortable, maybe you should evaluate what he was saying. Like, that's not my fault, but it's this huge for me. It's kind of. It's perfect timing in the sense that people were fracturing over the Epstein files and now it gives them a lot more ammunition to unite everybody, a lot more ammunition to push this new rhetoric, this new doctrine, these new civics courses. But at the same time, like, it allows for the demonization of anybody who disagrees. It's, it's the, it's worst case scenario in my opinion, as far as trying to find healthy solutions. Um, you know, and it's. It. And. But it is also heartbreaking in the sense that, like, you know, again, getting into that mental space of how in the world is this happening here? Like, never in my lifetime did I Think that these would be things that I witnessed ever.
- [41:21]
B
And these are people. And then this is all coming from the side that preaches the First Amendment. Yeah, that absolutely preaches the First Amendment and points to it as sacred, which I agree with.
- [41:34]
A
Agree 100.
- [41:35]
B
It's so important. Freedom of press, freedom of speech like that, that is so, so sacred to the fabric of our democracy. And they, they preach it, but also fight against it. It.
- [41:49]
A
Free speech for me, not for thee.
- [41:51]
B
Exactly. 100%. And in that. And that's so antithetical to what Turning Point was back. Back when I was involved. Yeah, like, back when I was involved, it was such a different organization than it. Than it is now, which is also very interesting because it coincided with the rise of Trump. The shift in the organization and the shift in Charlie's own own words and his tone and his messaging.
- [42:16]
A
Oh, his messaging changed. Radically changed at that point. Like, prior to that, like, it was one of. I started deconstructing in 2014. And so I was never on the Charlie Kirk wagon really. But, like, never didn't really have an issue with him either. I'm like, okay, I understand what you're saying. Cause I grew up in that rhetoric. Like, I don't agree with you, but okay. But I mean, he made a hard pivot and even he was much more, you know, mainstream than like, you know, now we've got like Nick Fuentes and the 4chan crew and just it gets progressively worse. But yeah, the whole movement made a very, like, militant, very misogynistic, very hateful pivot. And nobody within the movement has been checking it, saying, hey, that's not what we're about. They've just kind of allowed it to happen.
- [43:09]
B
Yeah, exactly. I know when in. I think this was probably in late summer of 2016, I wrote a article for Turning Point. I use the term article very loosely because I had not gone to journalism school and was a teenager. But I wrote an article criticizing the alt right, saying that racism and misogyny and just bigoted language, xenophobia does not have a place in the conservative movement. I think I was probably very naive to say that, but it was my opinion and I published it on, like, the Turning Point news outlet. And I got so many people just attacking me for it, attacking me for condemning racism.
- [44:01]
A
Yeah, it's central to the movement.
- [44:03]
B
It was a huge eye opener for me because I had thought, just based on my upbringing, that we could just. We can all agree, even if we. Even if we. Even if the right at the time and what I Believed at the time was that there was a not inherent racism in a lot of conservative policies. Looking back now, I'm like, okay, it's just under the surface. And I, I was just really condemning like surface level racism. But even just condemning that, I got so much, so much backlash for that. That was a huge eye opener for me. And that's when I started to use the word, or like think of the word dangerous.
- [44:43]
A
Yes.
- [44:44]
B
In regards to this rise of the militant right that I had never seen before. Even as someone who grew up in Texas going to like going to Tea Party meetings and stuff, it wasn't, it wasn't the same, the same kind of militant ideology. It was more of a, like waving our, like don't tread on me flag and like these taxes or whatever it was. It wasn't like white power. And that's when it really started to shift for me in terms of the danger level really starting to go up.
- [45:20]
A
Well, and also I think I noticed a distinction because my dad passed away in 2016, right before Trump was elected, and did not support Trump. He did not like Trump. He's like, nope, he's immoral. And I will say to my dad's credit, he held the same standard for Bill Clinton on Trump. Like, he's like this moral characteristics. I'm like, okay, but what I mean, I feel like back, even back then, if a left leaning political commentator or a comedian or anybody got fired or canceled or whatever because they made an opinion comment, I feel like my dad, people like him would have been like, no, you can't. Like, this is free speech. I don't agree with this person, but they should be able to talk. Like, that's. And that's how I always felt about Charlie Kirk. I'm like, I don't agree with what you say, but you do have the right to say it. You know what I mean? I'm not gonna advocate that your free speech should be taken away from you. And now we've seen a shift where there is no voice on the right saying, hey, no, we need to honor discourse, we need to honor free speech. And it's getting really, the temperature is upticking a lot and I keep hoping that the fever will break, but I don't know what the fever breaking looks like. And with. I forgot to ask you, when you went to law, what type of law do you practice?
- [46:37]
B
I do civil litigation. So it's nothing inherently political.
- [46:40]
A
Okay.
- [46:40]
B
Um, I, yeah, I get as much courtroom time as I can. Lots of, lots of commercial litigation. So. So it's Nothing. Nothing resistance oriented.
- [46:52]
A
Well, it wasn't. It wasn't even about that. It was more like safety concerns, you know what I mean? Because people that are immigration lawyers now are under attack.
- [47:01]
B
Right.
- [47:02]
A
I was in D.C. yesterday and I went to a shadow hearing with Congresswoman Jayapal, and they were talking about, like, what's happening with immigration. And it was just devastating stories, like people being abducted from picnics, disappearing for 12 days. Congress people having to get involved to find out where someone went. Four of the people that were taken from this picnic were US citizens and held over 10 days without being able to contact a lawyer. They were all minors. Not. They were interrogated without their parents. Like, just, Just.
- [47:35]
B
I mean, yeah. Not even a semblance of due process.
- [47:38]
A
Exactly. And it's just so foreign to me growing up in the movement that I did, because I will say my dad was far right, but he was also a constitutionalist. Like, he was very much genuinely free speech, free religion for everyone. Even though I don't agree with you. And I don't know where those conservatives have gone. I don't know if they've just gotten drowned out, if they're burnt out like all of us are, and they're just fried from everything. But it's intimidating.
- [48:07]
B
It's so intimidating. Like, exactly. I think that there's a lot of fear of disagreeing with the party or the, the sect of the party in power. Like, when I, When I was involved in about 20. 2016, into the 2017, I. There were things that I disagreed with, but I did not feel empowered to voice those disagreements because you, when you. When I was young and joined the organization, you exchanged, like, your disagreement and any criticism in exchange for belonging in that organization, in that party. So, like, to criticize maga now to criticize maga, to criticize the right, to criticize Trump, you are risking being booted out of this. This community of belonging.
- [49:02]
A
Yeah.
- [49:02]
B
And that's what a lot of. A lot of MAGAs and conservatives really crave is that, is that sense of belonging and having other people around them that believe in what you. You say that you believe in. So the people that disagree, I don't. I think that a lot of them are. Are afraid because then when one of, like, you criticize one thing, you have a whole posse of them who are doxing you and attacking you, and violence.
- [49:32]
A
Is not an issue because again, we go back to, well, God's on my side. So therefore, if you disagree, you're Satan, and it's okay that I respond to you. You know however I want. And when you've made these changes and you're still in a very red area, where does your family stand on a lot of this? And how are you handling those conversations?
- [49:53]
B
It's so, it's so challenging. It really, it really is because, like, with my family, I've pretty much had to say, like, we cannot talk about, we cannot talk about politics because it's, I know that I'm not changing their mind. They know where I stand.
- [50:13]
A
Yeah.
- [50:13]
B
So it's, it's really, really hard because I, you know, I don't want to go no contact with, with my family, but, like, for one of the more personal aspects of it is I am a sexual assault survivor and everyone, all these family members voted for Trump who, Who degrades women and has. Is. Is an adjudicated sexual assaulter.
- [50:41]
A
Yeah.
- [50:41]
B
So, so that, that really, really is where, where I stand on, on that where it's like, we are not going to see eye to eye if you still voted for him despite what happened to me.
- [50:55]
A
And, you know, like, that, like, and being able. Being in close proximity to you and seeing the damage and seeing the pain and seeing, like. And that not being a deal breaker for you.
- [51:07]
B
Right. Like, right, right.
- [51:10]
A
It.
- [51:11]
B
I mean, devastating. And so, so it's, it's really, it's really challenging. It's really challenging being in such a red. So that I live in Amarillo, which is like, red. Like, so red. We do have a pretty, pretty solid progressive community here, which is fantastic. There's more of us than you would think. But I mean, it's, it's really, it's, it's challenging just that, that tension sitting. Because I still, I still am a member of a church, and I go to a church with a pastor who speaks out against Christian nationalism. So I'm very thankful for that. And so, But I still, I'm like, I go to church and I still have that feeling of, like, looking around. I'm like, I know some of you, I know some of you still voted for Trump.
- [51:59]
A
Yeah.
- [51:59]
B
And it's, I know that that's, that's the wrong reaction for me to have. That's something for me and God to work out my resentment there. But. But it's, it's hard to, hard to find common ground in such a, such a red area.
- [52:13]
A
And it's. Well, and I had a conversation with someone that I was very close to growing up recently about all of this, and he kind of approached it like, do you think we were going over the Trump issue, you know, do you think I'm racist? Do you think I'm okay with rape? Do you think any, like, lists all these things off? And I was like, no, but they're also not deal breakers for you.
- [52:34]
B
Exactly.
- [52:34]
A
And it's like, that's it. And that. And we are at a place now where silence has become complicity. You know, and for things that are so grievous like that, so, like, for that to not be enough to say, you know, for me at this point with people, I'm like, we stand on a very different moral surface when those are not deal breakers for you. And the other. And the other thing is that I think I have to catch myself too, because I get frustrated and angry with people and I want to yell at them and shake them, and that doesn't work.
- [53:12]
B
It doesn't. It doesn't. Because that's what they expect.
- [53:14]
A
Yeah. Oh, you're the intolerant left.
- [53:18]
B
You're the intolerant left. Well, because when you, when you try to have. When you try to argue and you try to be like, you're like, you support racism, use for whatever you are, establishing yourself as the enemy.
- [53:30]
A
Yep.
- [53:30]
B
And that, and that just justifies their perspective of you, of you being this meta. Part of this metaphysical enemy force, whatever. And it just, it really galvanizes their. Their point of view. So it's really challenging because that's my, that's my gut reaction. Like, I want to argue with people. And like yesterday I woke up extra grumpy and I was ready to fight. Like, sometimes, sometimes I go out, I go out. I'll go out looking for a fight.
- [54:00]
A
Yeah.
- [54:00]
B
Like, because, like, I'm just ready today. I wish somebody would give me, give me a reason. Like, please give me a reason. And then I'm like, but that's not, that's not my mission. That's not, that's not my, My message. Like, my, my. My goal is to find the common ground and to, to restore. Because if I am going to criticize them for looking at us as the enemy, I can't, on the flip side, look at them as the enemy.
- [54:32]
A
Yep.
- [54:32]
B
Like, we, we all are human. We all are here trying to do the best we can. And it's. I have to. I have to tell myself that all the time because I get so angry and I get so frustrated and I, like, you want to just shake them. I'm just like.
- [54:50]
A
And it, it really, like, I was reminded. So I was. I was speaking with Dr. Steve Hassan, who used to be a Mooney. He was part of the Mooney culture. And he was talking about, he and I are considering doing like courses together, kind of teaching people how to talk to cult members. Cause that's what this is. Like, you just. But one of the things he always comes back to is he was like, you can't reason or logic them out of it because they didn't reason or logic their way in. Like, this is indoctrination, it's grooming, it's community. And I'm really thankful that you shared like, where you're at with your family, because I know that for so many people, even people that follow me and support me on my page are terrified that their families are gonna find out that they support me because their entire world is linked up in this movement. It's their church family, their biological family, it's who they went to school with, it's who they married, it's their in laws. And it is scary.
- [55:48]
B
It is because you've already, you've already had to go through. So if you've gone through this deconstruction process, you, at least for a period, you are ideologically without a home.
- [55:58]
A
Yeah.
- [55:59]
B
And so to. For that to become actually without a community around you, something that already feels very isolating while good and a good process to go through, it is very scary to face the prospective loss of that relationship with your family and your friends and your church community.
- [56:22]
A
Yeah. And it's like what I, what I'm learning and relearning all the time is that like the best thing to do is ask questions like, yeah, just to say, well, what do you think about this? And one of the things Dr. Hassan says is he's like, compare it to like communist China or like use an external comparison to get them to answer those questions. And then the other thing that I found to be really helpful is just saying, hey, well, the Bible says xyz, Jesus said, so what do you think about that? Or why would we do this? If Jesus said. And that has actually been extremely productive in one of two ways. It either gives them enough pause because they don't have that immediate speed bump of, well, the Bible says. And I'm like, I just told you what the Bible said. But they also, if they choose to argue or get aggressive, it's like, you're not arguing with me anymore. You're arguing with the Bible. And like, that's a tricky situation to be in. But it's, it's really about changing our dialogue, I think too. Cause it is easy to get so angry and so frustrated. And I think that there's a place for that. I think there is a place for these moments of, like, passionate outcry and anger at unrighteousness, but I think in these interpersonal conversations, it's really not productive.
- [57:37]
B
Yeah. I mean, bringing like, to your point about the question asking. When people, when I was on campus talking about Turning Point talking Points, and someone would ask me a question and I didn't have an immediate answer to it, that would stick with me. And I think, why didn't I have an answer to that? And that would kind of be a little peek through the curtain of, oh, there. There isn't an answer to that question because I'm wrong.
- [58:03]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [58:04]
B
Because I haven't thought about it. Because I'm wrong. And that having those little moments or witnessing other people's conversations and other people's debates, whether it's. Or in person, you can kind of in a much softer way, approach those questions as well.
- [58:26]
A
Yep. And I think that that's how, you know, one of the things about the, you know, people that I know on the left or progressives, especially if they've been left their whole lives, there's kind of this idea in this dialogue of, oh, these idiots. And I'm like, you need to understand that these people are not stupid. They have been planning and orchestrating and organizing for decades. They knew to get into school boards, they knew to affect kids, they knew to go after the youth. They knew how to do all of these things. And I think that we can learn something from that movement by reversing it and saying, they were out here talking to people. They were out here making sure all this information was readily accessible on their websites. They were, you know, and doing that ethically in the reverse. But it comes from conversations, because ultimately the core of this. The core of this is belonging.
- [59:16]
B
Exactly. That's. That's the thing. Because that's what I was. That's what I was looking for when I first got involved in politics and with Turning Point, because all, like, all I had to do, to quote, unquote, earn that belonging, was say, yes, I agree with you.
- [59:31]
A
Yep.
- [59:32]
B
And that. That. That was the ticket in. Is. Is agreeing with their views. And so there is that. That searching for belonging. And so demonizing the right and demonizing Magaz, that does not invite them in. That does not provide a soft place for them to land when they do start asking those questions. And that's something that I've tried to try to communicate on my page, is you are welcome, because you are always welcome to Change your mind. Like, do I wish you would have changed your mind and spoken out like a year, however many years ago? Yes, of course. But like, you can't sunk cost fallacy your entire way through the rest of your life. Like, now's the time to dig in, figure out what you believe in and join the other side. And that's okay. It's like, there's not shame there. Yeah, yeah, we're good. Like, we're, we're good. And not, not everyone on the left is gonna be like that. I've had plenty of people say, like, we don't want you over here. You did xyz and like, okay. Like, that's not gonna grow the movement. Yeah, that's not going to grow the resistance. Like, providing that, providing that belonging to people is so key because you're not just gonna, like you said, you're not just gonna reason your. Their way out of that indoctrination. You can ask questions and you can also be present and a friend for them, which I know that's not possible for everybody because this is a harmful administration and there is a lot of just implicit harm and bias and just real sense of danger with, with what's going on in this administration. So I'm not going to expect everybody to be. Be buddy buddy with the MAGA in your life. No. But if you're capable of it like that, that's how we can change minds.
- [61:25]
A
And that's, that's a distinction that I will point out for the, for my listeners because I've, I've been very clear about this on Instagram in the past. Like, we're not talking about having conversations with people who are inherently violent or unsafe. Like, there's going to be maggot in your life that they are not safe people to have these conversations with. They will get violent. They will scream at you. There's. There's just only rhetoric. That's not who we're talking about. We're talking about like, the people where it's. I'm really close to my mom and I do not know how to get to her. I don't know how she's bought into this. These are the conversations we're talking about because those are the people eventually. And we don't know how long this will be or how bad the situation's gonna get. They're going to eventually break away. Like, the people that supported Hitler eventually were like, what have we done? And they're gonna. And even on. I was so inspired a couple weeks ago in Patreon And I have all these chats with different groups of people, and this woman comes blazing in there. She was like, I'm 40 years old. I've been in the cult for 40 years. I woke up, I see it. I'm sorry. How can I learn? How can I help? And she's not the only message I've gotten like that. Because when. I love that, when the scales fall off, they fall off.
- [62:34]
B
They really do. Because now, like, I look at, at the right, and I'm just like, how did I believe all of that? Like, I. I don't understand. I really don't understand how I was there, but I was. I was.
- [62:47]
A
You're an attorney. You're a smart person. You know what I mean? This is not some intellectual thing, like, smart, exactly.
- [62:55]
B
Like, it's, it's. It's just awareness of, of the, the grooming and the training, the indoctrination and being able to see how. How by design, it all is. And. No, you're so right. Like, I have also had a lot of people since I posted my first TikTok come into my messages, and they're like, hey, I used to be a conservative. Like, I had a very similar story. Or I used to be involved with Turning Point, and then I realized that it's a scam. Or I had a lot of people that I worked with at Turning Point that were fellow employees who reached out to me and have said, hey, like, I also woke up, like, welcome to the resistance. And it's, it's so, it's so powerful because there, there are people that are waking up. And you're right that it's not the, the Super Die Hard Magas. Like, I don't know how to reach them. I really don't. Like, I have. I have people in my DMs, like, how do we talk to? I'm like, I don't know if I could crack the code.
- [63:57]
A
I would let you know.
- [63:59]
B
I would let you know. I would let everybody know. But what I can do is talk to people that are a little bit unsure, but they just don't know how to take that step. And I can be a friend for them.
- [64:10]
A
Yeah. And I think that that is. And this is like, such a great conversation because, I mean, this last week has just been chaos and it's been so difficult. But I really think that that is the secret to how this ends, is remembering that, like, we have so much more in common than we do indifference 90% of the time. And we keep getting pitched in this political movement of it's right versus left, right versus left. And it's not. It's top versus bottom, and it has always been top versus bottom. And continuing to change that conversation and continuing to see the humanity in people again. I firmly believe in righteous anger. I believe in passion. I believe in confronting evil, calling it out, and I will do that. And I will rip people into assholes sometimes on online again, people that are vitriolic, people that are hateful, not people that are confused. Not people that are like, I think this is the right thing. Not people. Because a lot of people in this movement believe they're serving God.
- [65:07]
B
Right, you know? Exactly. And when you're on a mission. Oh, go ahead.
- [65:10]
A
No changing the dialogue to where we do create this new space of like, no, no, no, no, no. All of us want freedom of speech. All of us want freedom of religion. All of us want to feel safe. All of us want our kids to feel safe in school. And that is where I think we start to see the tendrils of healing start to show up. And again, there's gonna be the far, far right that they're just never gonna change. Like, there's too much hurt, harm, and hate that they. And we can't make people change. People have to change on their own time. But I think with how things have escalated, we have an opportunity to, like, as people fall out of the movement, say, hey, there's a better way over here. And I think that especially falls on those of us who grew up in the movement to say, hey, come over here. Like, I'll help you. It's going to get rocky. It's going to be rough. You're going to feel a little lost. But help. Let me show you. But anyways, continue what you were saying. And I would love to hear more about, like, where you're at personally. Just like, with what. Because deconstruction, I find, is ongoing. And I would just love to hear, like, where you're at.
- [66:20]
B
Yeah, I think that, like, to your point about. Yeah, we're not, we're not going to reach the people that are, that are on a, like, mission from God. Because when you are on a mission from God, like, the rules don't apply to you in your mind, and neither does logic, I guess. And so reaching the people that are, that are wondering and are genuinely curious and are. Are looking for that better way because they know the humanity inside of them is telling them that the way that they're going is not the better way. That's. That's the path forward. And to your point, about top versus bottom. I am seeing a lot of class consciousness start to really take hold and a lot of people that have been like traditionally on the right because there are a lot conservative policies that are somewhat. Policies views that do, do lend themselves well to that class consciousness discussion. And the realization there really is starting to go, to go a long way because then we have, we have a common cause, the common people. Right? And like that's where, where, where I'm seeing a lot of progress. But personally, I mean personally, yeah, deconstruction is, is ongoing. It is, it's. There's not a destination because we continue to learn and continue to grow. And that's, but that's also faith like the, the continuing to grow in faith and continuing to be comfortable with sitting and not knowing the answer to things. That's been a big part of my faith journey is just being willing to sit with my questions and sit in that discomfort and know that I'm doing what I can to look for those answers and find those answers that mesh with what I know to be true. And so it is ongoing. Especially in an ever evolving like world where politics just has become more and more high stakes and, and intense. I think that it's easy for people like me that are a little bit newer to the left to just get really just entrenched in a certain political view and then put on a new, put on a new circle, put on a new political hat and just be like, yes, I'm like a progressive. Why? Because I am and not actually really understand why I believe. And so being able to sit with, not having a good solid elevator pitch on my beliefs is a place of growth for me that I think that a lot of people who are leaving the right really need to learn how to sit comfortably with just not, not having a perfectly packaged political ideology.
- [69:25]
A
Well, and also understanding that there's, there's no way to have all the answers and that's okay, right? And it's okay to come into a new topic and be like, oh, I don't know about this, I need to dive into this because I can't give you an answer to that question because I don't know the answer. And getting rid of this idea of certainty and kind of reintroduce faith and reintroduce learning. And that I think is the hardest thing. I think that's why so many religious fundamentalists of any religion are so prone to fall into other cults because we find ourselves looking for ready made because that's what we're used to.
- [70:05]
B
Exactly. Like, I'll watch. I watched a certain, like, cult documentary, and it was kind of in the beginning of the cult when it's, like, how people got into it. And I was watching, I was like, oh, this looks awesome. Like, this looks great. Like, I would love it. I was like, oh, are they still. Are they still active? Like, can I apply? Like, And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm so. I, like, from my upbringing, I'm so primed to just look for the easy answer in terms of ideology and belief. But being able to sit comfortably with, like you said, the not knowing is. Is so. Is so challenging, but it is an ongoing process.
- [70:44]
A
Yeah. And it's really, really important. And again, I think that there's a specific role that former, like, Christian nationalists, Christian fundamentalists have to fill, because we are the bridge between these movements. And especially as white people, and especially as white women, we kind of understand the depths of where this movement can go, like how women have gotten swept up in it and abused in it. And I'm just. I saw your video, you know, really breaking down Turning Point, but also this. This movement of what deconstruction looks like. And I'm really appreciative of your work and your honesty, even here. And just saying, I don't have the answer for my family. I don't. I don't know how that's going to play out. You know, where can people find you and your work and your commentary? Because I know that I have a lot of subscribers who grew up very similar to the way that you did.
- [71:42]
B
Yeah, I'm most active on Instagram and TikTok. Both of them are BabyBlue, TX, Baby Blue, because I'm a new. New baby liberal. I'm new here relatively. But. But yeah, that's where. That's where I'm active. Um, I'm also technically on substack, but I've written exactly one thing there, so wouldn't. Wouldn't go there for a lot of content. But you can find the link in my bio on Instagram and TikTok.
- [72:13]
A
Okay. And I hope for everyone listening that this was a calming nervous system regulating conversation. We have to remember that the core of this, like, the deepest baseline core is love and connection, because when you don't have it, you can buy into such incredible, dangerous movements. I think that that's why Christ made love the foundation, that it was more important than any other law because of the damage that happens when it's not there. So I hope that this encourages you wherever you're at. In deconstruction, whether you're a person of faith, not a person of faith, but also to have tough questions with, like, the living, breathing humans around you. It's going to be a long ride. It's going to be a little bit of a bumpy ride, but I do believe that there's another side to it. And, Caroline, thank you for what you're doing, and thank you for being here on flipping tables.
- [73:08]
B
Thank you so much. This was a great conversation. Thank you.