37. Holy Disruptor: Amy Duggar vs. The Duggar Legacy

Summary

Flipping Tables – Episode 37: "Holy Disruptor: Amy Duggar vs. The Duggar Legacy"

Host: Monte Mader
Guest: Amy Duggar King
Release Date: October 15, 2025

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Overview

In this powerful episode, host Monte Mader sits down with Amy Duggar King—a member of the famous Duggar family (of TLC’s “19 Kids and Counting”), recent author of Holy Disruptor, and self-styled black sheep/crazy cousin—to discuss the realities lurking beneath the polished surface of fundamentalist evangelical Christian families. Monte and Amy pull back the curtain on the Duggar legacy, exploring issues of control, purity culture, hypocrisy, abuse—and what it means to disrupt unholy systems from within.

With raw honesty and rich personal anecdotes, Monte and Amy offer a heartfelt, sometimes darkly funny, and relentlessly hopeful look at spiritual deconstruction, family trauma, and reclaiming agency as women in patriarchal religious environments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Amy Duggar King’s Book: "Holy Disruptor"

• Background: Amy's book exposes the truth of what it was like being an “insider-outsider” to the Duggars—a family made famous by extreme conservatism and rigid patriarchy.
• Why Tell Her Story?: The catalyst, as Amy shares, was confronting family secrets, especially after the Josh Duggar scandals. She realized, “I am on a mission...I’ve always been a truth seeker, and so truth has always been very hard to find in my family.” [04:30]

2. Fundamentalist Family Rules: Women & Submission

• Amy and Monte walk through key tenets of Bill Gothard’s Institute of Basic Life Principles (IBLP), which shaped Duggar ideology:
  • Wives submit to husbands; never challenge them.
    • Amy: “You can’t ask questions and you can’t challenge it.” [05:45]
    • Monte: “It’s essentially like having an earthly God…If you question your husband, it’s questioning God.” [06:05]
  • Women may not pursue independence.
    • Amy: “Sorry, sorry, you were born with a vagina…if you have any other dreams, well, sorry.” [06:22]
  • Rules for women, none for men.
    • Monte: “So many rules for women. Basically none for men.” [08:00]
    • Amy: “They’re not held accountable for anything…Men can make rules and do anything they want.” [08:02]
• Amy’s unique position: Her nuclear family was less strict than the main Duggars, but the expectations and shame seeped in. She was always searching for reassurance she was ‘good enough.’ [07:31]

3. Growing up "the Crazy Cousin"

• Amy was pulled onto the show by accident (literally picking up her grandma), and cast as “Crazy Cousin Amy.”
  • “I was just a normal person. And that was sinful.” [19:13]
  • She confronted Jim Bob about the 'crazy' label, only to be brushed off: “Oh, Amy, it’s meant to be fun…You laugh and you’re bubbly, don’t worry about it.” [20:07]
• The “crazy” label, Monte notes, is an age-old tactic to silence women: “When they say women are crazy, it means she had a very rational emotional response…but I don’t like it.” [20:51]

4. Surface Level Conversations & Emotional Repression

• Amy describes relationships with her cousins as pleasant but empty. Real feelings and struggles were off-limits:
  • “Surface level, happy dappy…there was no weight to it.” [28:42-29:09]
  • Moments when she found a cousin suffering a panic attack alone in the dark, while family and film crew partied outside. [34:26]

5. Early Warning Signs: Secrets & Hypocrisy

• Amy found pornography on a computer from Josh Duggar; when she tried to report it, she was dismissed by the family.
  • “I was completely dismissed from everyone. ‘There is no problem, I think you’re mistaken.’” [35:14-35:28]
• Monte links the culture of silencing and “happily brainwashed” obedience to classic abuser tactics: “That’s abuser language. Holy shit…” [57:58]

6. The Josh Duggar Scandals & Amy’s Breaking Point

• The family’s cover-up, denial, and blame-shifting in response to sexual abuse allegations as the true breaking point.
• Amy’s confrontation with Josh: “I gave it all I had and the strength that I had to go in to confront him, and I was not leaving without an answer. And I got it, and it was terrifying.” [60:26]
• Leaving the family: “I am never going back to this shit…Not in this house. Not in this generation. Not with my child. Not with anything. And I was done.” [61:53]

7. The Cost of Leaving & Becoming a "Holy Disruptor"

• Amy shares the emotional toll—grieving her family, daily “mental funerals,” and navigating public ridicule.
  • She was called “demon,” “grifter,” and “home wrecker” by fans and trolls. [50:27-51:34]
• Her mentor gave her the phrase “holy disruptor,” recognizing her purpose in breaking generational cycles: "You’re not afraid to go after and question toxic patterns…you’re standing up like a warrior." [43:01]
• Amy now surrounds herself with positive affirmations, focusing on healing and creating a better legacy for her own child. [44:09]

8. Patterns of Abuse, Gaslighting, and Victim-Blaming

• Discussion of the IBLP literature which blames victims (especially girls) for sexual abuse.
  • “Let’s say something’s happened with your brother. Well, what did you do? What were you wearing to cause that? Did you have an ‘eye trap’?” [40:34-40:58]
• Men are never at fault; victims are forced to suppress, internalize, or deny trauma.
  • “If you ever feel like, ‘Oh, they’re a good person even though they did this,’ believe what they show you.” [64:54]

9. Healing, Faith, and Deconstruction

• Monte and Amy discuss moving beyond religious trauma, finding peace, and trusting one’s intuition.
  • “If you are in a situation that feels smothering, trapping…you are not in a truthful situation.” [55:20]
  • Amy: “I have daily mental funerals all the time…Even on Instagram, everyone looks so happy…but I have to daily remind myself that abuse is something not mentioned…and I don’t want to go back there.” [68:59-70:13]
• Both women note the importance of therapy, healthy relationships, and affirmations in healing.

10. The Holy Disruptors: Breaking Cycles & Inspiring Others

• Amy’s message to readers and listeners: “You are worthy of love and you can stop the abuse from happening. You can educate yourself. Learn what gaslighting is and love bombing…and really decipher what is love and what isn’t.” [74:32]
• Monte emphasizes: “Stories like yours…let us finally see [fundamentalism] for what it is. The lies are gone. The facade is gone.” [78:36]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I am on a mission…I’ve always been a truth seeker, and so truth has always been very hard to find in my family.”
  — Amy [04:30]

• “There are so many rules for women. Basically none for men.”
  — Monte [08:00]

• “I was just a normal person. And that was sinful.”
  — Amy [19:13]

• “I see underneath my name…‘Crazy Cousin Amy.’ And I’m like, ‘Whoa, excuse me? Why am I crazy?’”
  — Amy [20:07]

• “If you question your husband, it’s questioning God.”
  — Monte [06:05]

• “Surface level, happy dappy…there was no weight to it.”
  — Amy [28:42-29:09]

• “I was completely dismissed from everyone…They did not want to hear it. Nothing.”
  — Amy on finding porn on Josh’s computer [35:14-35:28]

• “Until there’s a holy disruptor.”
  — Amy [42:41]

• “You confront evil head on, and that makes you amazing. You’re what I call a holy disruptor.”
  — Amy, quoting her mentor [43:01]

• “God is not the author of confusion. Wherever there is confusion, God is not in it.”
  — Amy [54:32]

• “I am never going back to this shit. It—like, I’m never going back to this. I don’t have to.”
  — Amy [61:11]

• “If people lie to you, cheat on you, hurt you, belittle you…that’s not love.”
  — Amy [71:40]

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Important Timestamps

• [04:30] – Amy’s “turning point”: seeking family truth in the midst of rumors.
• [05:38–08:02] – Breakdown of fundamentalist gender roles & impact on Amy.
• [19:13–20:07] – Origin of the “crazy cousin” label and its impact.
• [28:42–29:09] – Amy describing the forced emotional repression in Duggar home.
• [34:26] – Amy finds a cousin dissociating, alone, during a family party.
• [35:14–35:28] – Discovery of Josh’s porn use; family’s total denial.
• [42:41–44:07] – Origin story of "holy disruptor": affirmation and reclaiming power.
• [60:26–61:11] – Amy’s confrontation with Josh and “driving away” moment.
• [68:59–70:13] – Grieving family loss, daily “mental funerals,” boundaries.
• [74:32] – Amy’s hope for Holy Disruptor’s impact: self-worth, healing cycles.
• [76:52] – The cultural moment: women coming forward as holy disruptors.

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

Amy Duggar King’s journey reflects the struggle—and courage—of thousands leaving oppressive religious systems. Through heartbreak and public shaming, she fights for truth, agency, and a new legacy for herself and her son.

Monte and Amy close by encouraging listeners (of every faith or none) to be “holy disruptors” in their own spheres: to question harmful systems, protect the vulnerable, and reclaim both faith and personhood from the ashes of abuse.

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Connect with Amy Duggar King

• Instagram: @amyrochelleking
• TikTok: @amyourking
• Website: amyduggerking.com

Book: Holy Disruptor—available now.

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“Remember that these systems can be broken, they can be escaped, and they can be healed.” — Monte [87:38]

Transcript

[Amy Duggar King]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Amy Duggar King]

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[Amy Duggar King]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Amy Duggar King]

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[Podcast Host]

From her book that just came out yesterday, Amy Dugger King opens with 19 kids and counting. First aired on TLC on September 29, 2008. Following the daily life of my uncle Jim Bob Duggar and my Aunt Michelle, along with their large growing family, the Duggars became massively popular for their unconventional lifestyle that emphasized extremely conservative Christian values, homeschooling and the challenges and rewards of raising a large family. And our main character today wasn't originally part of the show, tried to kind of avoid it and then suddenly when she came to pick up her grandmother for on a Random Tuesday, became a main character pulled into the scene that we later know as crazy Cousin Amy. And today on Flipping Tables, I'm going to be talking all about the Duggars conservative family values as well as the role of women in extremist fundamentalist groups. Today on Flipping Tables with Amy Duggar King. Amy, thank you for being here today.

[Amy Duggar King]

I am so excited to be here.

[Podcast Host]

I am so excited. We've been planning this for a while and I am really glad that it worked out because just the story, when I first got the email about your book and about I was like, you're kidding. You're kidding. She was there. She was like, what? And again, just so appreciative. We're doing this in person. So if you are watching this on video, we're actually live and in person, which we haven't done for a while now. Tell me how you are like right now in this moment. Like the book came out yesterday. It's coming out because we're recording a few weeks in the head. But so the book's getting ready to come out in a month.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And you've been working on this. You've been, you wrote this in seven months.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

You're doing all the promotional. How are you feeling? Like, digging through the story, reliving it, as well as getting ready to put it out there.

[Amy Duggar King]

I'm a jittery mess. I'm going to be really honest with you. It's. It's really good to proclaim all the truth that I'm. That is. That is coming out for the whole, you know, whoever reads it. I'm trying not to hype it up in my head. It's just something that, like, has to get out because it could help so many people, and that's really my focus. But I am. I am so excited to talk to you. I. I'm sitting here with you, and you look like a moody mermaid. You've got such a vibe about you, girl. And I love it. I am here for it. And so, yeah, just to share my story really means the world. So thank you, really, for inviting me.

[Podcast Host]

And. And what was the turning point? Like, what was the moment where you were like, I have to tell this story, like, the whole story, because obviously the Duggars were in, you know, the 19 kids and counties incredibly famous. And then the. The Ashley Madison scandal. Josh, every. Obviously, this is such a huge thing, but what was the moment for you where you, as an insider, have to tell this story?

[Amy Duggar King]

It's a really good question. I believe that it was when I went to confront Josh. I wasn't getting any answers from my family at all. I kept asking, what's going on? There's chatter about, you know, sexual abuse with the sisters. And there was all this stuff, like, little. Little noises that I was hearing and little things. People gossiping. And so I was like, what is the truth? What is the truth? What is the truth? And I. I go in my car, I start the engine, and I'm like, the hell I'm gonna find out. The hell I won't find out. And I go down that driveway, and I knew that was the moment where things are gonna shift, things are gonna change, kind of.

[Podcast Host]

Whatever happens.

[Amy Duggar King]

Whatever happens, I'm going forward, and I'm going. Like, I'm going for a mission. Like, I am on a mission to. And I've always been a truth seeker, and so truth has always been very hard to find in my family.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, I relate to that.

[Amy Duggar King]

And so for me, I was like, here it goes. Like, it's a turning point. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And it's interesting how in the quotation marks, holiest conservative families. It sure seems like secrets overwhelm the truth more often than not. And I just want to dive into your story because this is so amazing and so what I do. And one of the things I was talking to you about before we started recording was in the beginning you mentioned the institute and basic life principles and you actually write them out. And for those of you that have listened to flipping tables, I have mentioned this with Bill Gothard and the umbrella of authority. I've mentioned it with James Dobson and also just conservative Christian fundamentalism. So I'm going to go through and I'm going to read these taglines and I would love for just a little bit of your feedback, how you saw it in your life before we really dive into the nitty gritty of the show and TLC and scandals and stuff.

[Amy Duggar King]

Let's go.

[Podcast Host]

So the first one is the wife must submit to the husband and refrain from challenging him.

[Amy Duggar King]

I just. Yeah, yeah, that, that happened all the time. I mean, there was no. You don't ever talk back. They have the main voice, they have the main, they have the only, the only answer. And there is no, you can't, you can't ask questions and you can't challenge it.

[Podcast Host]

It's essentially like having an earthly God, like tangible God. If you question your husband, it's questioning God.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes. Yeah. It shows that you're, you're rebellious. You have a rebellious heart.

[Podcast Host]

Strong willed child. Women may not pursue independence or self reliance. Yes.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah. I mean all, everything that I'm written in this book, it's like a book of truth. And so, yes, they have a already ordained plan for your life if you are a woman. And it is to be childbearing and to be meek and mild and be quiet and if you have any other dreams, well, sorry, sorry.

[Podcast Host]

You were born with a vagina.

[Amy Duggar King]

You were born. You were born and you're gonna have lots of kids and. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Did you feel that pressure as much in your family else? Because this is your aunt and uncle that you saw kind of passed on to your cousins. Did you have the same kind of rules, the same idea of like, don't worry about career, don't worry about school?

[Amy Duggar King]

I didn't. I could really pretty much do whatever I would like. I had a lot of free reign. But at the same time, they did have their impact on me, of course. Because I was, I was in it.

[Podcast Host]

And you're on the show.

[Amy Duggar King]

I was in it.

[Podcast Host]

Now.

[Amy Duggar King]

I'm not gonna say, like, I was a part of the IBLP and I'm gonna ride that coattail because I was not there. Okay. Thank God. I went to a couple, you know, things that they have, like, conferences and that kind of thing. But as far as, like, really in it and studying the. In the booklets and all of that, no.

[Podcast Host]

Heck, no.

[Amy Duggar King]

I didn't do any of that. But I will tell you that it really did have an impact on me because I wanted to be a good person. And I thought I was, but I wasn't as good as a person as I thought I could be in their eyes. And so I was looking for that, like, gratification, if you will, just any kind of, like, reassurance that I was a good person.

[Podcast Host]

Well, in this feeling that is, like. Because we mentioned this before recording too. Like, this feeling of, I'm never enough. I'm never enough. I'm never enough. Because there's so many rules for women.

[Amy Duggar King]

So many.

[Podcast Host]

Basically none for men.

[Amy Duggar King]

No. They're not held accountable for anything. And that's what really just drives it in. Because if you're not a good person, if you don't have a good heart, if you are not a genuine. You have genuine soul, you can make rules to do anything you want without.

[Podcast Host]

Any repercussions as long as you're a man. And out of these rules. So when you were, like, compiling these rules so that people like you, who didn't actually grow up under these. Because I grew up under these.

[Amy Duggar King]

You did?

[Podcast Host]

I did. Oh, yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

I did not know that Rules kind.

[Podcast Host]

Of pivoted when he realized that I was, like, smart smart. And then he was like, oh, okay, well, since I now have, like, a paper proof that you're really smart, instead, we're gonna put you in law school so that you can be a Supreme Court justice and overturn Roe v. Wade.

[Amy Duggar King]

You are such a badass.

[Podcast Host]

He wanted me to be Amy. Coney Barret is essentially. But prior to that moment when you realized I was smart, it was. Cause I was a chunkier kid. He was like, well, you need to lose weight for your future husband. I'm 10 at this point.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, gosh.

[Podcast Host]

He started making me. I had to wear makeup at 12, shave my legs at 12, do my hair at 12. And everything was about future husband, future husband, future husband. And then when I got IQ tested, cause I skipped a grade, and my teachers were like, what is going on with this girl? And my dad's whole path turned well, because they have to have women in strategic places of power to keep all the other women in line. That's why you have your Christina.

[Amy Duggar King]

You cannot have an uprising, Levitz. You cannot have an uprising. You cannot think for yourself, you are considered rebellious. Something is wrong with your heart. Sinful sin. Yeah. Oh, you're a walking sin.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

We're both walking sins. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Hell, yeah. I was. I just led a Bible study last night on the creation of biblical womanhood. And I talked about how so much of that changed, really, in the Protestant Reformation. This gendered theology of the highest calling for woman, instead of being celibate and serving God, was getting married and having kids.

[Amy Duggar King]

And Martin Luther.

[Podcast Host]

That Martin Luther said, quote, women's only purposes are to be a wife or a prostitute. She's good for nothing else.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, that pisses me off so much. It's so sad. It's so wrong and so twisted.

[Podcast Host]

Went after the wrong people.

[Amy Duggar King]

They really did. They really, really did. Ye. And it's really sad that now, as we continue to grow and learn more and educate ourselves, there's still families and women stuck in these terrible situations that they can't think for themselves. And they're. They. They literally probably feel like they're worth nothing.

[Podcast Host]

They do. They feel like they're worth nothing. They. And they feel like if they have a moment of completely reasonable doubt, of completely reasonable fear or longing, of I wish I could have gone to school for dance or whatever that dream was, they're immediately overwhelmed with shame because this isn't what you're supposed to do. And if you' unhappy or depressed in your marriage, it's because of your sin, not because you're not meant to just live in the house taking care of kids all day with no one to talk to and a neglectful husband. Oh, no, that can't be it.

[Amy Duggar King]

No, of course not. Of course not. No, of course not. Can't have that. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So, like, as we go in. So the show starts in 2008. I want you to. I'm just gonna let you. I have my notes of, like, which stories I want to make sure we cover, but give us the story of how you got pulled onto the show because you weren't originally part of the cast.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, my gosh, no. And I never really wanted to be at all. That was their thing. And I was like, he.

[Podcast Host]

Hey.

[Amy Duggar King]

Like, they got their own thing going on. So, like, I respect that, but, like, I'm gonna stay over here. I literally was just picking up my grandma from. Or picking her up from the house, and she wouldn't come to the car. She refused. And I think she's very smart, very strategic woman and was just like, no, no, you come in. No, you come in. And I was like, fine. So I Was like, you know, we're gonna stay out here all day waiting for you to come in, or I'm just gonna. Just do it. So I walk in, and immediately I am greeted with everybody in the living room, and the, like, all the kids are sitting there, like, so, poised in their hands, in their laps, silent. This beautiful, adoring, obedient kids. And I'm, like, tiptoeing around the room, you know, as quiet as I can. And Jim Bob is. My uncle, is saying, who wants to be the chaperone for Josh? Nana and I. How do you not laugh? Okay. These people are adults. They are adults.

[Podcast Host]

How old was Josh at this point? He was.

[Amy Duggar King]

I remember, what, like, 19, 20? I don't. Something like that. He was adult. He was an adult. And I'm like, like, I just. How do you not do that? Right? And so. And so the producer noticed that, you know, because that's something they don't ever do. And he comes up to me, and he's like, who are you? And I was like, I am so sorry to interrupt your shot. I am just trying to get to grandma's room, which happened to be on the other side of the living room, so I had to, like, go across this huge room. Right? And he was like, why don't you want to be the chaperone for Josh and Anna? And I was like, because I will let them do whatever they would like to do. They don't need a babysitter, you know? And I just said, like, no offense to their beliefs, but that's not how I roll, basically. And he was like, you need to jump on camera. And I was just like, oh. And, like, I had a really hard time saying no to people. I didn't say no easily. And it was something that, like, was ingrained in me as well. Like, always be obedient. Always, like, don't rock the boat. Don't do anything. And so I was like, okay. And so, yeah, boom, there I am. And I'm. Yeah. It just is just as crazy to me that now looking back, so much has gone on, and I'm just like, how, like, what is life? What is my life?

[Podcast Host]

Well, and when you were like. So just, like, for the contrast, because we know, like, your cousins are, like, super strict in this conservative environment, there's very strict gender roles.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

What was your family like in contrast to that? Because clearly, they're not as strict. But what was their faith? What did they teach you about.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Who you should be?

[Amy Duggar King]

It was the Christian faith. It was. My dad was like, A very hard worker. So he wanted to make sure that, like, I worked very hard in life and instilled that he was a. He was a. There were some good qualities there. I will just say that. But he wasn't, like, overly, like, biblically, like, inclined, and, like, you know, he wasn't dominant like that. My mom was the sweet, sweetest pie. I mean, she's so, so kind. And it was just really different. I grew up with bathing suits and, you know, listening to the radio and. And concerts and kissed a boy. You know, I think I was a late bloomer, so I was, like, 17, but I know. I know. I had. I had a birthday cake that said 16 and never been kissed. And it was, like, the most embarrassing moment. But that's all right.

[Podcast Host]

I was 16 when I got my first kiss.

[Amy Duggar King]

But I will say. Were you okay? Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I will say junior senior banquet because we couldn't have prom because dancing is vertical sex.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. And so was the beat of any kind of music. You cannot listen to anything with an offbeat.

[Podcast Host]

My dad was a drummer, so he bent some of those rules, so. But it was. We could only listen to Christian music unless it was a classic rock band he liked.

[Amy Duggar King]

That is so crazy. Why are these rules?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Like, why do these.

[Amy Duggar King]

Why. Why do they exist?

[Podcast Host]

Listen to, like, Boston and Three Dog.

[Amy Duggar King]

Well, that's amazing that you could. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You know, but anything, like, any 80s hair metal. Absolutely out. No 90s alternative. I didn't even. I didn't know who Tupac was until I went to college.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, my gosh.

[Podcast Host]

I love it. And my roommate showed. I was like, this is the greatest thing that's ever happened.

[Amy Duggar King]

What do you mean? I love it. Do you want to know my favorite 80s song? Like, my. Actually, I'm ready just, like, my lifestyle song, like, for my life.

[Podcast Host]

So this was your. This is like your. Your anthem on your life album.

[Amy Duggar King]

I was playing baseball. This is what we'd be playing. Patti Smythe Warrior. Do you know that song?

[Podcast Host]

100%.

[Amy Duggar King]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

It's amazing.

[Amy Duggar King]

I'm obsessed with that song. There's a Patti Smythe website, and I. I think I'm the only one that ever bought a T shirt for, like, 29.99. I have it at home. And I love my life.

[Podcast Host]

I love that song. I will say that, like. Like, coming into pop culture in. In college, one of the cool, like, some of it, I felt so overwhelmed, and I felt so stupid because people would make movie references or song references. I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Who is Nirvana?

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh.

[Podcast Host]

But getting to listen to those albums for the first time as an adult.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, life changing.

[Podcast Host]

Amazing, right? Amazing. Like listening to Alice in Chains, Dirt from Top to Bottom. Like, for the first time as discovering Rush, Ozzy Osbourne, I'm like, this is.

[Amy Duggar King]

The great crazy train that has ever happened.

[Podcast Host]

And, yeah. You know, and I love Black Sabbath. But being able, as an adult to hear those has its own kind of benefit. There's just so much you miss out on. Oh, so here's a question comparing your families.

[Amy Duggar King]

Hold on.

[Podcast Host]

Before she's like, stop.

[Amy Duggar King]

Hold on.

[Podcast Host]

Hold on. Stop.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes. I was gonna say we were on a crazy train in a whole other different way.

[Podcast Host]

This is so true. Yeah. This is so true.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah. Okay, I'm sorry.

[Podcast Host]

So were you allowed to read or listen to or watch Harry Potter?

[Amy Duggar King]

No.

[Podcast Host]

You weren't. Okay, so your family still was with the Harry Potter thing.

[Amy Duggar King]

Still with the Harry Potter thing. I couldn't have a cabbage. Cabbage. Pat does Patch. Can't even talk. Cabbage Patch doll.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, my God.

[Amy Duggar King]

I could not. I wasn't really into a lot of Disney, but I could, like, you know, Little Mermaid. I could pretend in the bathtub or, you know, spin around.

[Podcast Host]

Like, I couldn't have a Barbie, but I could have.

[Amy Duggar King]

I could have Barbies.

[Podcast Host]

A Disney princess doll in the shape of a Barbie, but not Barbie herself, because Barbie had her own house, in her own car and wasn't married.

[Amy Duggar King]

Heathen.

[Podcast Host]

Heathen.

[Amy Duggar King]

I didn't know that Barbie was a heathen.

[Podcast Host]

Barbie Satanist. No. Just kidding.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah. What an evil, evil girl.

[Podcast Host]

So you had a little mix. So I had some of those rules.

[Amy Duggar King]

I had. Yeah, I had a mix. But my dad was a huge heavy rocker, so I grew up in, like, I mean, Bon Jovi and, like, all the. All the classics. All the classics. But Patty Smythe is by far my favorite.

[Podcast Host]

And my dad, as I mentioned, my dad's a drummer. So anytime.

[Amy Duggar King]

Any.

[Podcast Host]

Then growing up, he played guitar and sang. I grew up singing with him in nursing homes was how I got into music. Okay. But every time my dad would see a drum kit. Cause he didn't play as an adult anymore. But he would go. He'd play the best version of Wipeout you've ever heard. And he'd be, like, sweating. By the time he was nice, I was like, dad, you were meant to be an artist. How did we get here?

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, my gosh. What happened?

[Podcast Host]

Poor man. What happened was he went to college in Arizona for two years, and he had the Opportunity to go move to LA to be a session musician.

[Amy Duggar King]

Wow.

[Podcast Host]

And this would have been right around the time that the Wrecking Crew was working and Linda Ronstadt and the Eagles and all.

[Amy Duggar King]

Everybody. Wasted time.

[Podcast Host]

He mentions it to my grandfather, who says, you know, essentially, music's not a career. Good sons come home and take care of the ranch. And my dad and dream, dream gone.

[Amy Duggar King]

Crushed.

[Podcast Host]

Right. To be a righteous son, you know, so it affected my dad, too. And he lived his life in such a sad way. Cause you could tell, his whole life, all he wanted to do was sing and write books, and he never.

[Amy Duggar King]

I hate that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Never got to do that. So as you're kind of in this. So you're kind of the sinful cousin, right?

[Amy Duggar King]

Apparently.

[Podcast Host]

How did you. So they call you crazy cousin Amy. How did that originate?

[Amy Duggar King]

I honestly have no idea. My personality was just different from all the kids. I had a person who allowed to have one because I was allowed to show emotion. I was allowed, you know, if something annoyed me, I was like, oh. Like, I gave. I was just a normal person. And that was sinful. That was not something that they. They, like, frowned very much upon that. And so I couldn't even say, like, I hate tomatoes or like anything. Anything related to hate or I don't like, or that's not cool. Anything like that was considered, like, very. A behavioral issue.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

And. Yeah. So I just was on the show, and as it aired, I see underneath my name or above my name, crazy Cousin Amy. And I'm like, whoa, excuse me. Excuse me. Like, wait a second here. Why am I crazy? Why.

[Podcast Host]

Why is that being announced?

[Amy Duggar King]

And, like, they didn't even ask me. They didn't even ask me. It was just something that just, like, popped up and, like, went with it. I talked to my uncle, and I was like, I don't like that this is being associated with my name. What. What can we do about this? And he was like, oh, Amy, it's meant to be fun. You know, you can. You. You know, you are just a little. A little light, and you have just. You're always fun. You laugh and you're bubbly, and don't worry about it. It's no big deal. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, it's gonna be so bad. It's gonna be so bad because people can take crazy in so many different ways. Oh, yeah. Well.

[Podcast Host]

And it's also, like, also, whenever it's used to women, it's inherently demeaning.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Women are too emotional to be in the White House. Women are crazy. Women are this.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And typically when they say women are crazy, it means she had a very rational emotional response to an incident. But I don't like it.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Is what that means.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah. It means you're rebuking whatever they were, like, trying to throw at you, and you have emotions about it and an opinion, and they don't like it, and so they're going to shut it down.

[Podcast Host]

They called you loud, and they're gonna.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, yeah, I definitely was called loud. I was. I was never told by my uncle that I was. That I wasn't enough. He never said that. But I was too loud and too much, and I needed a man to tame me down and that he could find me one, you guys. And he could find me one.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, this. That just brought me nom. Flashbacks. Oh, my God. Because I remember my dad, when I got older, he would say things like, it's gonna take a hell of a man to tame you down.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And it was this whole thing that you're. You're too much, you're too vocal, you're too vibrant. Yeah. And so. And obviously, he's not saying. He's not saying the words, you're not enough.

[Amy Duggar King]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

He's definitely comparing you to his daughters, his wife, and saying, you're not, like.

[Amy Duggar King]

You're not like them.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. And so without saying it, as you're existing in this space, how does. How does that kind of conversation and also, like, purity culture, like, affect you and kind of seep into your mind? Did you notice how it affected you versus your cousins?

[Amy Duggar King]

I. Yes. No, I did, for sure. I. Every day, I was very much aware of, like, the way I was speaking. As you know, in iblp, the women are soft right here. Right here, right. Right up there.

[Podcast Host]

Just like that.

[Amy Duggar King]

And they don't change. They don't ever change. I remember one time, all the time, I. Yes. I came home and I asked my mom, I said, I know this is gonna sound crazy, but, like, do I speak like a man? Because I don't. I'm not princessy. Like, I even. I even noticed, like, some of the wives that were getting married that are joining our family were speaking in that way. And I was like, when did that happen? Hello? Like, what. What is going on here? And it's just, like, it was always around. There was always. I was always aware of, like, my makeup and my hair and the clothes I was wearing. I always had clothes in my car because if Jim Bob didn't, like, one thing I was wearing, I had several options because Again, I wanted to. People, please. I wanted to. And you want to be accepted. And I wanted to be accepted. You know, I want to be accepted just for me. Being in me. I wanted that to be enough.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

I don't feel like it ever was, but I did. I just wanted to be myself. I just thought, like, why is it. Why is it never enough?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Well, and also in these environments that the Overton window always shifts.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Because it doesn't matter how good you are. In order for them to continue subjugation and continue this idea that only men can be an authority, because men are perfect and wonderful and God loves them more, they have to make sure that they remind you why you have to submit, why you have to be less than. It. It's the whole.

[Amy Duggar King]

I always had a heart issue. I was always called into the office because of my heart issues. And I was just like, if I.

[Podcast Host]

Rolled my eyes any harder at that, I would lose them.

[Amy Duggar King]

I'm not kidding. Yeah. But I couldn't do that. I couldn't roll my eyes. Of course not.

[Podcast Host]

Because then that's. Because then it's business, and then it's.

[Amy Duggar King]

Like a whole other thing, a whole other level. And so I was just like, yes, sir. Yes, sir. And I was just like, why am I in here?

[Podcast Host]

It's so crazy.

[Amy Duggar King]

Why am I in here?

[Podcast Host]

I remember especially so, like, we grew up under these rules to a degree because I was raised only by my dad, so him trying to wrangle six kids was an adventure for him. But we also had families that were on the range of, like, we knew a group of families that the. The women could only wear floor length dresses, long sleeves, couldn't wear jewelry, no makeup, and. But they all did this.

[Amy Duggar King]

That little. Hi.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, my God. Like, so that's why I hated the demure trend on Tick Tock.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Shut up.

[Amy Duggar King]

I know.

[Podcast Host]

I didn't wear the jewelry, Max. I do not like to clean, girl. I don't like the demure thing. I think those are all in my mind, conservative, pipeline, trad wife. I'm like, no, if that's your natural style, great, Wonderful. Love it. If it's something that's a trend or being like, oh, this is better.

[Amy Duggar King]

No, no, no, no. Yeah, you definitely be yourself.

[Podcast Host]

I'm always gonna. Two colors in my hair. I'm going to wear the nails and the jewelry, like, and part of the opposite.

[Amy Duggar King]

I've never. I've honestly never done my nails. Like, I did them in, like, in like, prom.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. Next time you come, we're Going to go see my girl.

[Amy Duggar King]

But, like, well, they look really bad right now, but. But no, I'm more natural. So, like, I would be in a ball cap with, like, no makeup on and just, like, hanging out in Arkansas.

[Podcast Host]

And then they would be like, oh, you need to do more for your husband.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, well, that. But also, ball caps were considered boyish, so I couldn't wear them on camera because I was considered, like, having a heart issue. Again, because I was not being more feminine and I needed to show.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, I need to know what some of these. More of these heart issues were. Give me some exam some more examples of these quotation mark heart issues.

[Amy Duggar King]

Distressed jeans were a heart issue.

[Podcast Host]

How dare you show your kneecaps.

[Amy Duggar King]

My car. My car. Listen. The kids were not allowed to drive with me going anywhere because I had a radio in my car and a CD player in my car yet. Yeah. And it wasn't even on. It wasn't even freaking on. But the fact that they had a radio in their car was completely fine. They had a radio, they have a CD player, and yet it was fine. But no one could ride in my car because they thought I was going.

[Podcast Host]

To influence them with your sinful music.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes. I remember the first time that the kids were all going somewhere and I was meeting them there. And one of Joe's. I felt to say his name. He. Which I've never really said their names because I'm trying to obviously watch Legal, but he got in my car and I was like. Like, I gasped because he's never been in my car. And he was like, it'll be fine. And I'm like, are you sure?

[Podcast Host]

Like.

[Amy Duggar King]

And I was like, looking around, like, do I have anything out here that's gonna like. Like a. Like a dark lipstick?

[Podcast Host]

So stressful.

[Amy Duggar King]

Nail polish. My. Is my sunglasses a right color? Like, all these things? And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, it was just worry, worry, worry, worry. And I remember being like, I'm so sorry if you see something. Like, I was so worried for no flipping reason.

[Podcast Host]

It's really stressful as a woman being in these environments, because it's every little thing. It's what you wear.

[Amy Duggar King]

It's so many.

[Podcast Host]

It's what you listen to. It's the color of your shoes. It's the color of your fingernails. It's what lipstick you're wearing. It's if you're wearing jewelry and you have to like. And. And because they've tied it to your salvation, they tie it to your worthiness. Yes. They tire. They tie it to your future of, like, having love. Oh, like, yeah. So you're so stressed all the time.

[Amy Duggar King]

I was so. I. Yes, I. I could. I just always wanted to be perfect. And it's. It's a level of expectation that you can never get to. And there is no level. It's a pat. It's like just a power over you and control to keep you underneath them.

[Podcast Host]

Yep. And it's this whole thing of, like, Eve was the sinner, you know, it's like, well, first of all, that was a myth based on a Babylonian myth. But also, I don't think that God created half the human race and said, you're just not as good. Go sit in the corner.

[Amy Duggar King]

I think he has plans for all of us.

[Podcast Host]

I think so. I was like, that.

[Amy Duggar King]

We all have a plan.

[Podcast Host]

We all have a purpose.

[Amy Duggar King]

Exactly. Don't ever listen.

[Podcast Host]

I don't think that a good God is going to create a group of people and then say, no, you stink. Sorry.

[Amy Duggar King]

No, I don't think so.

[Podcast Host]

Doesn't seem right.

[Amy Duggar King]

That's not right.

[Podcast Host]

And as we're. You're diving into the show, how are there some moments that really stand out to you where you're like, especially with your cousins, especially the younger cousins, where you're like, ah, this is. This doesn't feel right.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

What were some of those, like, big moments that stand out to you?

[Amy Duggar King]

There was several of them that I just. Well, first off, it could only be surface level conversations. There was never any kind of like, hey, what are you struggling with? Hey, you know, what are some things that you're worried about?

[Podcast Host]

Are you okay?

[Amy Duggar King]

Are you okay? I could never ask those questions. It was very, like I said, surface level, happy, dappy. Talk about weather, talk about a jean skirt, talk about whatever. Whatever the. How pretty the flowers are blooming. I don't know. It was very just like, like there was no. There was no.

[Podcast Host]

I don't.

[Amy Duggar King]

I don't even know. There was no way. There was no weight to it.

[Podcast Host]

You might find a skeleton if you start asking questions.

[Amy Duggar King]

Imagine that. Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

Well, so during this time, so this before everything happens with Josh, what was your relationship? Because this is your mom's brother.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

What was their relationship like?

[Amy Duggar King]

Great.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Amy Duggar King]

They were. I mean, they were close growing up. My mom wasn't on the show hardly really ever. A couple times, you know, but it was never like a mere focus on her. But yeah, I mean, they had a great relationship. They went to lunch, they talked, they hung out, you know, and that kind of thing. And it was very Like a family that was very healthy. And I honestly put them on a pistol, you know, I was like, wow, you have this many kids, and it's so peaceful and calm and wonderful over here. And it really was my safe haven growing up that I spent so much time over there.

[Podcast Host]

What was discipline like for 19 children?

[Amy Duggar King]

They had encouragement. Have you heard of encouragement?

[Podcast Host]

I. I think it's going to be similar to my dad's version of inspiration.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, inspiration. I've never heard of that one. Okay. Yeah. So there was. There was rods. There was like plastic rods, like thick plastic that had a handle on them. And they were around everywhere. They were in the van, they were on top of the refrigerator. They were. They were everywhere. And I never saw them use it, but I heard so many of the. Of the older kids talking to the younger ones and saying, if you don't obey, would you like some encouragement? And it was like, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

See, my dad would be. His question was, how long has it been since you've been inspired? Was his question. And my dad used a big, thick wooden spoon that was like a foot and a half long, huge spoon itself. And his other rule was that you couldn't cry or scream, and if you did, you get spanked longer.

[Amy Duggar King]

I'm so sorry.

[Podcast Host]

But my dad said it, it was inspired. I was, but I was wondering how they would phrase it, because. Especially because you're on reality tv, you can't depict that.

[Amy Duggar King]

They. Yeah, no, they did not ever show anything like that on the network. But the network, let me just say the network was great. They were wonderful. They really were. I had loved the crew. I loved. I loved everything about it. And they were sidelined, too. I mean, they really were. They had no idea.

[Podcast Host]

And so when. When did things start to get shaky for you? When did you start to say things feel off, things aren't right. What was kind of the breaking point in this system? So you're. You're kind of halfway in, halfway out.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

When did things start to either feel off or when did things start to shift that eventually kind of led to the breaking point later on?

[Amy Duggar King]

So I found porn on a computer that my dad bought from Josh. And it. I mean, I had no idea, you know, and so I found that happen lots of files. He just always had to do his tech. Always. And so whenever he would get something new, he'd be like, who wants it? You know, kind of thing. So my dad bought a computer, put it in, like, the kitchen, you know, counter area, and I'm scrolling learning the new MacBook. You know.

[Podcast Host]

Woo.

[Amy Duggar King]

Big MacBook. And. And yeah, I just so happened to look down and in the files part, it said josh's files. So I'm like, oh, oh, he forgot to delete something. That's what I was, you know, whatever. So I click on it. This is the moment that, like, I have never seen Josh ever be rebellious. Show any. I mean, he was like the most charming, you know, perfect son, like, perfect person. Okay? Like, there were no flaws that I have ever seen. And I scroll, I see all this and it's. I mean, it's nothing but just naked, naked, naked, naked.

[Podcast Host]

You're just like, wow.

[Amy Duggar King]

And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. And I realized right then that there was a secret and it's been hidden. And I tried my damnest to talk to my uncle about it. Tried my hardest. I truly did. And. And this. You know what? That's a good question. There's been a lot of stuff.

[Podcast Host]

There's been a lot of stuff.

[Amy Duggar King]

There's been a lot of stuff happened, I would say. I mean, it was the. In the beginning. In the beginning.

[Podcast Host]

So I mean, early, when the foundation starts to crack.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes, yes, exactly. And then there was another time that I went to the pantry at their house and I was looking for like, napkins or something, and I heard this little whimper. I heard this like, like very soft, like, not kitten like, but very soft. And I was like, oh my gosh, what is going on? And the lights were off. And so I turned the lights on and I saw a jean skirt. And one of the older girls was having a total meltdown, panic attack. And I talk about that in my book too. I don't mention names because that doesn't matter and the names don't matter.

[Podcast Host]

And it's not their fault.

[Amy Duggar King]

It's not their fault. And I'm not gonna do that to them. It's their storytell. But I reached down and I just wanted them to know that they were seen and that they didn't have to like, cry alone in the dark. And this was also when a birthday party was happening, when there was so much joy on one side of the. Of the house happening. And all of these people and all this fun and all these things, confetti and cake and all this stuff. And then behind a door was a broken girl. And I knelt down and I just. I just held her. I just held her, you know, and.

[Podcast Host]

If she cries in front of anybody, then she's gonna be. Oh, it's rebellious. You're trying to take attention for yourself. You're, you know, and so when you find this, all this porn on Josh, so then you try. What happens when you try to tell his dad or tell anybody about it?

[Amy Duggar King]

I was completely dismissed from everyone. From everyone. Like, there is no problem. I think you're mistaken.

[Podcast Host]

I saw hundreds of naked people.

[Amy Duggar King]

I did not make that up. Like, they just, they did not want to hear it. They did not want to hear it. Told my mom. We called. We called my uncle. He did not want to hear it. Not at all. Nothing. And I was just like, our hands are tied. What do we do? I mean, we can't do anything. And plus, porn's not a crime. I can't really report that.

[Podcast Host]

It's just hypocrisy in this instance.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah. It's just, you can tell there's, like, more to the story than what they, Than what they were selling. Yeah. At the time, in my opinion. Let's put that in there.

[Podcast Host]

So is this. So is this the kind of the moment for you where you're like, wait, none of this. It was this kind of the light bulb moment.

[Amy Duggar King]

This was the light bulb moment where I realized not everything as perfect as it seems. And after I saw that sweet girl bawling her eyes out and shaking uncontrollably. I can't even tell you how bad it was. It was awful. Scare running. I mean, the whole thing. Sorry, I'm hitting the mic. But, but I literally, I. I was just, like, I looked around the room. I left. She went upstairs. I, you know, I got her out there without people seeing her. And I said, go upstairs.

[Podcast Host]

Fix your.

[Amy Duggar King]

Fix your makeup.

[Podcast Host]

It's okay.

[Amy Duggar King]

Like, I love you. I'm here for you. You know, all that kind of stuff. And everyone was smiling, looking around, and. And I was just like, who else is hurting? Who else is hiding? Ford Blue Cruise hands free. Highway driving takes the work out of being behind the wheel, allowing you to relax and reconnect while also staying in control. Enjoy the drive in BlueCruise enabled vehicles like the F150 Explorer and Mustang Mach E. Available feature on equipped vehicles Terms apply. Does not replace safe driving. See Ford.com BlueCruise for more details.

[Podcast Host]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

[Amy Duggar King]

Listening to this podcast.

[Podcast Host]

Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move.

[Amy Duggar King]

Another smart move.

[Podcast Host]

Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling.

[Amy Duggar King]

Just another way to save with a.

[Podcast Host]

Personal price plan like a good neighbor State Farm is there prices are based on rating plans that vary by state Coverage options are selected by the customer availability, amount of discounts, and savings, and.

[Amy Duggar King]

Eligibility vary by state. Pain. Because when you.

[Podcast Host]

When you can't have these deep conversations in conjunction with the fact that when you have 19 children, you cannot give each of them the attention they need.

[Amy Duggar King]

I. I truly don't believe that.

[Podcast Host]

You can't.

[Amy Duggar King]

You can't. It's not possible. No.

[Podcast Host]

You know, and because, I mean, I'm number five of six and then later a younger half brother. And even with six kids, did you.

[Amy Duggar King]

Feel lonely at times?

[Podcast Host]

100%. Like, part of the reason I'm such a nerd and a book girl is because there wasn't time for it, because I wasn't a problem. I didn't get that attention. And also the combination of, you know, my dad's theory of, like, you know, there's no use crying over spilt milk. So if you had feelings to talk about.

[Amy Duggar King]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

Feelings are not doing that well. Feelings are ungodly in the iblp. Yes, it is something that is like feelings. You don't just have them.

[Podcast Host]

You don't have to trust your intuition.

[Amy Duggar King]

Don'T trust your instincts.

[Podcast Host]

All of those are your sinful nature because you are inherently born sinful and broken.

[Amy Duggar King]

Right. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And then when I got older, I got a lot more attention because my dad, like, had this, like, goal for me, but it was never about me, and it was never, you know, I don't think my dad and I, until I was, like, late teens ever had a conversation about feeling something, ever. And it sounds like for the Duggar kids, they never got to have those conversations, except maybe whispered to each other when no one was around.

[Amy Duggar King]

You know, I have. I don't know. I can't really speak for them, but what I saw is I. I believe that's correct.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

It's just so sad.

[Podcast Host]

It's so sad.

[Amy Duggar King]

And because you're not supposed to be a robot. Yeah, we're not robots.

[Podcast Host]

And then that, I mean, that progresses to affect you. You know, when you get older and you get into relationships and you're trying to have your own family, how do you communicate? Yeah, how do you communicate?

[Amy Duggar King]

Exactly?

[Podcast Host]

You don't. I had to learn. I had to learn.

[Amy Duggar King]

I had to learn. Yes, exactly. I did, too. I did, too. I grew up with a lot of fear, a lot of control. Just. I would never measure up. I felt like I would never measure up.

[Podcast Host]

Well, and I felt, you know, I really struggled with, as an adult, like, in. Even in dating, relationships, speaking up when something's wrong. Speaking up When I'm troubled by something, because it's so ingrained to you to never talk, never protest, never rock the boat. And it sets young women up, particularly, but young men as well, for abuse. Oh, because you just take it.

[Amy Duggar King]

You just take it and you. You're silent about it, and you don't know how to talk about it. You don't know how to process it. You don't know how to work through your pain at all. So you just bury it. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And you mix that in with, especially for women, this idea of, well, you know, you're owned by your father until you're owned by your husband. Your virginity is your only value. All those things, you tie all that up in with this abusive relationship that you can't speak against. That's how women get stuck and get killed.

[Amy Duggar King]

Did you know there's actual. Exactly. Do you know there's other workbooks that are in the IBLP that literally talk about, like, let's say something's happened with your brother. Well, what did you do? What were you wearing to cause that? Yeah, what was. Did you have an eye trap? Was there eye traps? An eye trap is anything below the. The neckline, so your clavicle, your. Anything.

[Podcast Host]

Cleavage, anything.

[Amy Duggar King]

Anything. It could be your. It could be your shoulder.

[Podcast Host]

Yep.

[Amy Duggar King]

It could be your kneecap.

[Podcast Host]

Because I remember when those pamphlets came out, like, we didn't have those in the house, but I remember when it came out because there was all this talk in the church, and I went to only Christian schools. The elementary school I went to was named after the Heritage Foundation. It was founded by my grandfather, but it was this whole thing. Well, you can't show your shoulders, you can't show your ankles, because if you do, you lead a man to stumble, and then it's your fault.

[Amy Duggar King]

And then it's your fault.

[Podcast Host]

What did you wear? Were you alone with him? Did you flirt with him?

[Amy Duggar King]

Did you know the word abuse is not even something that they use? It's not even a word they can even exist. They don't. They don't exist. It doesn't exist.

[Podcast Host]

You just need to submit more. Don't you know?

[Amy Duggar King]

And it's also called that. Like, if something. Let's see, one of the. One of the girls has been through some horrific things, they would just say, oh, that happened to me too, to one of the other girls. And it's just. They don't know what it's called. It's the saddest system. And it's closed. It's a closed, awful system, in my opinion.

[Podcast Host]

It is. Let's put that in there. And like, the thing is, is with, like, with fundamentalist circles, they're breeding grounds to protect.

[Amy Duggar King]

I put that in my book.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. And, like, because this system, this system is built to protect abusers. And again, the men are never at fault.

[Amy Duggar King]

No.

[Podcast Host]

And you know, you have, like, Christian marriage counseling through Paul Popeno, James Dobson, all these people where if the man cheats repeatedly, it's, oh, well, you just need to meet his needs better. And if he's abusive, they don't use the word abuse.

[Amy Duggar King]

It's a covenant marriage.

[Podcast Host]

It's a covenant marriage.

[Amy Duggar King]

You can't leave it, you can't protect it. You're not allowed to. Or Jesus won't love you enough. Like, you're lower on the curse your children.

[Podcast Host]

Did you ever hear that one?

[Amy Duggar King]

I heard that. I heard that they'll get sick. I heard that they'll come down with something awful. They'll have a horrible car wreck. Always out of fear. They. They always. They practice out of fear, out of everything. And it works.

[Podcast Host]

It works.

[Amy Duggar King]

It works like a charm. And it is so sad. Until there's a holy disruptor.

[Podcast Host]

Until there's a holy disruptor. Now, good segue.

[Amy Duggar King]

Unless there's a holy disruptor.

[Podcast Host]

I want you to expound on that topic because the book is called Holy Disruptor. I want to know where it came from, where it originated, and then we're going to really dive into when things really imploded.

[Amy Duggar King]

Okay. I love it. Yeah. So Holy Disruptor is a powerful title and it's something that I went to lunch with one of my friends and mentor. She's incredible. And it was when I was just feeling completely depleted from this show. Okay. I was like, I am so misunderstood. I got people praying for my soul. I'm getting all these emails. It's awful. Like, media is tearing me down. I felt like, lower than dirt. I truly felt lower than dirt. And I was like, I don't know who I am and why I'm a part of this family. And, and what makes. Why am I here? What is my purpose? This is crazy. Like, I hate this. And she was like, Amy, hold on, hold on. She was like, first off, you're strong. Don't ever let someone try to, like, poke at you and tell you you're nothing because you are strong. She's like, second, you confront evil head on, and that makes you amazing. She was like, also, you're what I call a holy disruptor. And you're not afraid to go after and question toxic patterns and the things that have broken so many people. You're standing up like a warrior. That's why that song is so important.

[Podcast Host]

And there it is.

[Amy Duggar King]

Circle. But, yeah, that's the moment. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And something clicked inside of me, and I was like, maybe I am a holy disruptor. Maybe I am like, I don't have. Yes, there's flaws. Everyone has flaws. But maybe I do have a purpose after all. And I just started to, like, really taking that in. And I started writing things all over my house. Little notes that were like, you are enough. You can do great things. You know, all of these affirmations that I needed that I wasn't getting from no one. No one. You know, I don't know.

[Podcast Host]

How old were you at this point?

[Amy Duggar King]

I was in my 20s.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, so you're taking on this affirmation.

[Amy Duggar King]

Taking on this affirmation. And then, yeah, I just was like, if I ever get a chance to maybe share my story in any kind of way, I want that to be the title. And it's crazy to think that is here. It's a total God wink in my. In my eyes.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. And I love how in that story, like, sometimes it just takes one person to shift your perspective, because same with you. Growing up in the system. And I really start. I hit my wall around 23 was where I really started to wrestle. I had always had a problem with how the church treated women. I can look back now and be like, oh, I've been a feminist my whole life.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah, no, me too.

[Podcast Host]

I just didn't know what the name was.

[Amy Duggar King]

I didn't know.

[Podcast Host]

And I thought, oh, I'm being sinful. Oh, I'm defying God. I'm defying God's role for my life. And you put your. And you absolutely start to just.

[Amy Duggar King]

You wrestle with it.

[Podcast Host]

Yes. And they also. They get so good at breaking you down and destroying you that you start to do it to yourself. And so I was really good at that.

[Amy Duggar King]

I was really good at that, too.

[Podcast Host]

So good. And I remember I was. I went to Liberty. Okay. Graduated from Liberty. And one of the years I was raising money to go on a missions trip, went to one of my favorite professors, you know, with this, told him about the trip. As I'm walking down the hallway to go back out of the building, I hear him yell, I believe in you. Oh. And I just stopped. And I went to college at 16. I think I was 18 at this point. I think I was two years in, and I just froze. Nobody had ever Said that to me before. Wow. And I was like, that moment. Powerful is burned into my brain. And not that my self esteem and my self worth changed right then. It didn't. It took years and years and lots of therapy.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah. But shout out to the counselors that help.

[Podcast Host]

Shout out to the therapist. Oh, my God. My first therapist was absolutely incredible. Like, that woman saved my life. Like. But this. It's this one moment that was like, oh, like I'm worthy of someone believing in me because I had become this achievement addict. You know, straight A's, gotta be on the ensemble, gotta be the best at everything. Gotta do this, gotta be perfectly skinny. Gotta be like. Cause that was my way.

[Amy Duggar King]

That was your way.

[Podcast Host]

I was gonna earn my worthiness.

[Amy Duggar King]

That was your way. You're gonna earn it. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And yeah. My first therapist, she was so great. Cause I was really purity culture for me was really a big deal. The heavy hitter. The heavy heavy, hard to overcome. So when you're after.

[Amy Duggar King]

It's amazing though.

[Podcast Host]

It is. And I remember I was sitting. So nutshell. Cause I want to go back to the Duggars.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I was engaged in my early 20s and I was like, oh, my good. I've done everything right. I'm the perfect little virgin and I've met my husband, blah, blah.

[Amy Duggar King]

And.

[Podcast Host]

And we end up. I lost my virginity to him two months before we were supposed to get married.

[Amy Duggar King]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Two days later, I find out about all the other women. And I find out that she.

[Amy Duggar King]

Heartbreaking.

[Podcast Host]

Stole my identity and put $65,000 of debt in my name. Ended up being homeless for almost a year. Holy shit. It was this whole thing. It was this whole thing. I was living in Virginia at the time. I relocated to New York after this all happened. Gave him the ring back, obviously broke everything off. He had put the gym studio that we owned in my name. All of it was in my name. So I had to do everything to break it all down.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, my gosh.

[Podcast Host]

And moved to New York with my clothes and had to file for bankruptcy at 23. So. But there was this whole. So there was this whole thing where I'm like, oh, my God, I'm such an idiot. I let this guy play me and deceive me. And I was so in love with him. I was like, so over the moon for him. And then like, oh, my God, I'm worthless now. I'm a piece of chewed up gum because I've had sex with this person. And my dad screamed at me for it. And I remember going to my first therapist and this was, like, I was in, like, a bad place. And our first couple sessions, I remember, like, I am, like, dry heave sobbing to her about the shame and the guilt, and I can't function, and I can't look at myself, and I'm, like, falling back into an eating disorder I had in high school. And I was just like, you know, I'm the only person that sinned. I'm so disgusting. I'm gross. I mean. And she ends up, like, looking at me, and she kind of freezes. And she was this beautiful, vibrant Jamaican woman. Just beautiful hair, like, just radiant joy. Just joy. Like a pure joy.

[Amy Duggar King]

Pure joy.

[Podcast Host]

And she sits there and she opens up with me and she tells me. She's like, I'm gonna tell you something. That the only other person in the world that knows this is my husband. And she opens up with me, and she tells me this devastating story about her when she was 19. That, like, I'm sitting there and it was the first time that I felt like someone told me it was okay to not be perfect. And also that no one is. It was just this moment. That woman saved my life, and she saved me from addiction later on. She ended up passing away a couple years after that, but was just an.

[Amy Duggar King]

Angel sent for you. Yeah, Angel. And just.

[Podcast Host]

I, like, I. Every time I'm feeling overwhelmed, I just remember Deborah smiling. I'm like, I can do this, I.

[Amy Duggar King]

Can do this, I can do this.

[Podcast Host]

But again, it's those specific people that show up. And sometimes it's one line like, you're a holy disruptor.

[Amy Duggar King]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

And sometimes it's a conversation where someone shares their most vulnerable thing with you, and you realize, oh, this whole idea that I'm the only one that's not perfect, which is how they painted you.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Is not true.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah. I thought I was the only one in the world that felt like this. I really did. Like, because I was this lone girl on this show with millions of followers, and I felt like every single person that followed me followed the show Reddit. I mean, I don't even know all hated me. Every single person hated me.

[Podcast Host]

What would they say?

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, gosh, I've heard everything from.

[Podcast Host]

You know, you've been called a demon. Because that's.

[Amy Duggar King]

I have. Yes. That's a. That's a great one. I've also been called just a. Like, a home wrecker, which was crazy.

[Podcast Host]

I had.

[Amy Duggar King]

A long time ago, there was a rumor that I was, like, sleeping with this older man. It was insane. This random woman. I don't Know anything about her? Anyway, I had to go on the Today show. This is like, when the first, you know, couple seasons were airing on 19 Kids Accounting. I had to go on the Today show and like, like, tell everyone, like, how it was a lie because so many people were contacting me and just, like, bashing me for no reason.

[Podcast Host]

I've had.

[Amy Duggar King]

I've had so many things. I'm fake, I'm a grifter. I ride the Duggar coattails. They think I changed my name from King, which is. Is my husband's last name, to Duggar, just to get famous.

[Podcast Host]

Even though the producer pulled you onto the show.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah, Yeah, I have heard. I've heard I have fake lips. I have no eyebrows, which I don't. But that's not my fault. They just. I have to color them in every day, which today they look pretty bad. But whatever.

[Podcast Host]

God did this to me.

[Amy Duggar King]

I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. But, yeah, I have fake lips that I have a love child. One of the cousins is my love child. Oh, my God, I have heard so much crap. It is, like, continues all over.

[Podcast Host]

And it's really sad just because you're not like them.

[Amy Duggar King]

Right? Yeah, they. They all just are like, oh, there she is during trouble again. She's just stirring trouble. And I'm like, I don't. I'm not editing these episodes out loud. Yeah, I'm sorry. Like, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like, it was really, like, strange. Very strange. But it's really interesting how I'm sure, you know this social media, they believe anything they hear anything.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah. I love the rumors I hear about myself. Oh, yeah, I'm quite.

[Amy Duggar King]

I need to. I need to, like, put on Reddit and just, like, read them out loud. I need to do that. I haven't done that yet.

[Podcast Host]

But the lore is intense. I'm like, wow, I didn't know I did that.

[Amy Duggar King]

Long time ago. I used to ball my eyes out, be like, oh, my gosh, no one loves me, like, having these moments. And now I'm like, all right, and let's do the list. Like, you know, like, I don't need that anymore.

[Podcast Host]

But this is why I don't read Instagram comments typically.

[Amy Duggar King]

This is why I re. Read it.

[Podcast Host]

I'll read a few. I stay off Reddit, you know, But I mean, the.

[Amy Duggar King]

The.

[Podcast Host]

The themes are the same. It's something around slut and whore. Yep. Something around being a bitch nose ring. And now the new one is I Get called trans all the time.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, yeah. Nice.

[Podcast Host]

Because that's. That's the new insult. And people like, oh, what did. It's always my jawline because I have, like, a very angular face. I'm like, oh, I look like my dad. But also, like, one guy said, his comment was, are you. Oh. He's like, oh, are you trans? You look strong and built. And I'm like, I'm putting that on a T shirt. Thank you, sir. I just got back from the gym. I was like, it's working games. So excited.

[Amy Duggar King]

Well, I'm here. I'm sitting right across the street. Or right, the street, but right across from. You're the street right across from you. And you were breathtaking. Oh, thank you. Don't even.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, it doesn't faze me.

[Amy Duggar King]

No, I know. But, like, the problem. But the second, like, there's lies, lies, lies, lies, lies. I feel like the enemy just uses that, you know, just to tear us down because we are strong women.

[Podcast Host]

Well.

[Amy Duggar King]

And there's more of us rising up, let's be honest.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, my goodness. A whole way.

[Amy Duggar King]

There's a whole. It's a whole thing going on right now.

[Podcast Host]

And you. And you know this. That. When I had this kind of philosophical moment the other day, you know, like, when Jesus talks about that narrow is the path that leads to salvation. And I realized that it's people like you who are facing these conservative, traditional religious systems full on in the face, I was like, that's the narrow path. It's not all the people in the church who are condoning racism and protecting pedophiles.

[Amy Duggar King]

Great.

[Podcast Host]

That's the wide path.

[Amy Duggar King]

That's the wide path.

[Podcast Host]

It's easy because you get included. You don't get kicked out of the circle. It's the person who stands up and says, uh, this is what Jesus taught. I'm down with him and I'm gonna fight for what's right that gets removed. I'm like, it just dawned on me the other day. I was like, oh, that's the God.

[Amy Duggar King]

Do you know my, like, motto for life is peace, be still? Of course. But it is that God is not the author of confusion. Wherever there is confusion, God is not in it. Think about that for a minute. Think about all the shit you've ever experienced in your life. The trauma, the heartache, all the confusion. Has God been in that?

[Podcast Host]

Nope.

[Amy Duggar King]

Exactly. And so it's when. Whenever I'm, like, faced with a problem or faced with, like, a situation, or I'm like, I don't know what to Do. I don't know what to do. I'm like, why is there confusion? Oh, because God's not in it. There's my answer.

[Podcast Host]

Yep. And something's wrong.

[Amy Duggar King]

And something's wrong here.

[Podcast Host]

No, something is wrong here.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah. Like, listen to yourself. Because I do feel like there's, like, an inner calm that comes through you when it's right.

[Podcast Host]

Well. And also you will know the truth and it'll make you free.

[Amy Duggar King]

That's right.

[Podcast Host]

And if you are in a situation that feels smothering, trapping. You can't breathe, you're panicking, you're stressed, you are not in a truthful situation.

[Amy Duggar King]

No. A hundred percent.

[Podcast Host]

And I will say, especially to young women listening to this, because I have young women who have left. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormon cults, Christian fundamentalism, all these things. Listen to your body as you are deconstructing, because your body will warn you before your brain catches up. As you're unpacking these ideas that your emotions are sinful, that your questions are sinful, which they're not. God has no issues with questions. Men have issues being questions.

[Amy Duggar King]

I think he offers the questions. He wants your questions.

[Podcast Host]

Faith by default requires doubt.

[Amy Duggar King]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

If it's certainty, it's not faith anymore.

[Amy Duggar King]

Agree.

[Podcast Host]

And so. But what I will say to, like, what helped me a lot when I was deprogramming purity culture and I grew up in a very abusive home, was like, learning my body. So, like, ladies, when you feel like your gut instinct says, I shouldn't be in this room, get out of the room.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah, exactly. When you feel shaky, weak, nervous hands.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. When you're.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah. Headaches. When your heart starts beating really insanely fast and you just feel, like, uneasy. Yeah. Flee from it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. And just. Just know that, like, your body's working through something. And even if you're with someone, that you're like, oh, I should trust this person. This person's my family, or this person's a church leader, or this person, if that. Those body emotions show up, that's your cue to go. That's just. Get out. And also, it's often, if you're dealing with shame and guilt around these ideas, it's also a sign that those feelings didn't come from you. They were given to you by someone else. Someone else told you you should feel that way.

[Amy Duggar King]

Preach.

[Podcast Host]

It's not. If you listen to it, it's not your voice.

[Amy Duggar King]

It's not. It is someone else's voice. Never is your voice. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So as this. We're gonna kind of Go to the, to the big hitter now. Okay, the juicy home run part.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes, yes.

[Podcast Host]

So you try to confront the porn that was found. Yeah, let's talk about, kind of give me an overview of, like, the brainwashing that has happened collectively.

[Amy Duggar King]

I literally have a chapter called Happily Brainwashed.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, I know. That's why I made the note.

[Amy Duggar King]

Uh huh.

[Podcast Host]

Uh huh.

[Amy Duggar King]

I just feel like no matter what is being told or said, if you were in the iblp, in my opinion, I mean, you don't get to question it. So you just believe it, you blindly obey and you just go along with whatever they say. They also have family meetings where they will sit down and talk and, and say, like, hey, like, we love this person, but we're not going to tell them any of our business because they won't understand how we guide and love you.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, that sounds like abuse. Don't tell your mom.

[Amy Duggar King]

Right?

[Podcast Host]

This is a special thing between us, right?

[Amy Duggar King]

Just this.

[Podcast Host]

That's abuser language. Holy shit. Mm.

[Amy Duggar King]

Ooh.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I know. That was one I never got. Ooh, that's. Ooh. That, like, makes my stomach hurt.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah, it was very. It was a very, like, closed system, you know?

[Podcast Host]

Has to be, because it's the only.

[Amy Duggar King]

Way it can thrive because that's the. Exactly, exactly. And so, I mean, there's just been so much that's happened.

[Podcast Host]

And so I remember I was living in New York, working at the gym. Like, I had really worked to rebuild my life. I was in a good place. And I remember listening to a podcast and hearing about the Ashley Madison scandal. So how did that play? Because you're in it. How does that play out when Josh is found as part of that scandal?

[Amy Duggar King]

Well, so here's the thing, is that when I confronted Josh about, about the sexual allegations and stuff about this, my, the sweet cousins, my sweet. The sisters, that was my moment where I was like, I'm probably never coming back. I'm never coming back.

[Podcast Host]

Give me the lead up to that. Like, tell me, because again, for people that maybe aren't familiar with what happened. So Josh is the oldest son of the 19. He's married at this point. This all comes out.

[Amy Duggar King]

And kids.

[Podcast Host]

So how does the allegations surface to you and to other people that are not immediate family? How did you find out?

[Amy Duggar King]

There was like. Well, for one, there was a news source that came out, a magazine that came out and had a picture. Most of the time, magazines don't catch my eye at the grocery store, like, whatever. This one I walked past and it was the picture of my cousin's home. And I was like, what? And on it said, house of Horrors. And I was like, what is going on? What is going on? And that is when I was not getting any answers. I was getting told lies. I was getting told, like, half truths. I was getting told, like, oh, don't worry about it.

[Podcast Host]

This article that. Did you read the article? And that was how you first found out there were allegations?

[Amy Duggar King]

That first found out that there was allegations. I found out like the rest of the world. My mom and I found out like the rest of the world. Dylan and I found out like the rest of the world, and we were just dumbfounded, completely heartbroken because this had.

[Podcast Host]

Gone on for a long time.

[Amy Duggar King]

For a long time.

[Podcast Host]

A long time.

[Amy Duggar King]

A long time. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And so what happens when you confront Josh?

[Amy Duggar King]

I let him have it as far as, like, I didn't hold anything back.

[Podcast Host]

I wish I could have been a fly on the wall.

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

That was probably years in the making.

[Amy Duggar King]

Years in the making, for sure. I won't give away what happened.

[Podcast Host]

I don't want to tell the whole story.

[Amy Duggar King]

Let me tell you. It was. It was like the moment I felt like a superhero. And not to, like, ooh, look at me. But, like, I gave it all I had and the strength that I had to go in to confront him, and I was not leaving without an answer. And I got it, and it was terrifying. And I felt like I have never known him at all.

[Podcast Host]

You're just like, this perfect person is a monster.

[Amy Duggar King]

It was awful. Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was heartbreaking. And I also felt like a superhero.

[Podcast Host]

Well, because when you stand up, when.

[Amy Duggar King]

You stand up for what is right.

[Podcast Host]

Against something that is so evil, it does make you feel like you could run through a wall.

[Amy Duggar King]

I seriously felt like that. I, I. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I just remember being. Just driving one hand on the wheel and being like, I am never going back to this shit. It. Like, I'm never going back to this. I don't have to. And in that moment, you, the sinful.

[Podcast Host]

Person, or the one person that is.

[Amy Duggar King]

Like, the one that's crazy, the one that has been called all these. These things, all the rebellious that have a rebellion heart, you know, all these things, God was there, and I. I just felt this righteous rage come over me that was like, I will not let you do this any longer if I have anything to do with it. It's stopping now, and it's stopping with me.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

And not in this house.

[Podcast Host]

I'm not gonna.

[Amy Duggar King]

Not in this house. Not in this generation. Not with my child, not with anything. And I was done.

[Podcast Host]

And so I remember after the allegations came out that there was a whole bunch. Obviously, there's always conflicting information in the family. So what happens in the immediate family when this allegation goes public? Are they defending it? Covering it up? Are some of the kids?

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, I get a phone call. I get a phone call from my uncle and just says, hey, just want to let you know that there's some stories flying around the media. You know how they do. Very passive. Just want to let you know. You just don't talk to them. Let this story blow over. It's. There's nothing to it. There is no truth to this story.

[Podcast Host]

How can you, in any realm of reality, call yourself a man of God and you defend your son who assaulted your daughters? How?

[Amy Duggar King]

That is a question that I am still really wrestling with.

[Podcast Host]

That's a level of delusion I can't even imagine.

[Amy Duggar King]

I don't understand. I don't. I don't understand.

[Podcast Host]

So obviously, Jim Bob's covering up for it. What happens? What about, like, the rest of the kids? What about Michelle?

[Amy Duggar King]

Allegedly.

[Podcast Host]

Allegedly. Allegedly.

[Amy Duggar King]

Allegedly. Michelle is sweetest pie, very just supportive of her husband, just as an IBLP wife should be, and doesn't question it, doesn't do anything. You know, I wasn't there for those conversations. I have a lot. I would have a lot to say if I would have been there. But in that moment, I. I chose better for my life.

[Podcast Host]

That was none of this.

[Amy Duggar King]

I was like, I am done. Like, that's. The first scandal was disgusting and awful. This one is like, are you stupid? Like.

[Podcast Host]

Like, it quacks like a duck.

[Amy Duggar King]

In my opinion. I think it's the dumbest thing. Like, he used my grandma's address. He used a famous DJ's photo. Like, it didn't make sense. It was very just like, I'm just gonna do whatever. And. And it didn't make sense. And so it was very sad. It was very sad for the people involved and for his wife and all of that. But at the same time, I was like, I want nothing to do with any of this anymore. This is not God, and this is not the God that I know. And this is. This doesn't serve me in any kind of way.

[Podcast Host]

Well, and there's no way to come back from that.

[Amy Duggar King]

No.

[Podcast Host]

Like, there's no. There's no way, like, between, you know, like, molesting his sisters and then the Ashley Madison stuff. Like, there's no way to come back from that and be like, oh, You're a good person that made a mistake. No. You made a series of intentional choices over the course of years.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And it wasn't just, it wasn't just abuse. It wasn't just molesting someone. It wasn't just adultery. It wasn't just lying. It was all of these things repeatedly.

[Amy Duggar King]

It was wrapped up.

[Podcast Host]

Up. Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

It wrapped up in a pretty little bow too. I mean, it was very, very hush hush for a really long time. I will say for the people that are listening to the women that are listening to the young women that if you ever feel like, like, oh, they're a good person, even though they've done this right. Even though they lie to me, even though they, they pushed me or they.

[Podcast Host]

I know he loves me. Even though I know he loves me.

[Amy Duggar King]

Even though. Yeah, yeah. No, believe what they show you because it's only going to get worse. That's how abuse travels. It has to have a place to grow, a place to do something. So they start out small, abuse starts out very small. And then it, it just grows uncontrollably.

[Podcast Host]

And again, for young girls, listening, it starts with words. Belittling you. Yes. Controlling you, making a snide remark, joking at your expense. Consistently. And then it escalates to things like using his body to tower over you, block you from leaving a room.

[Amy Duggar King]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

And then it escalates to punching a wall, throwing furniture, and then it's you. So if you're a young girl, if you're in your teens, your twenties, and, and for young men listening to this too, same for you. Yes. If someone is always putting you down or they are always making you feel stupid, they're always mocking you, that person is an abuser. Use that as your red flag to get out.

[Amy Duggar King]

They do not love you.

[Podcast Host]

And they do not love you that you're using you for their own benefit. And if they ever use their body to physically intimidate you, choke you, touch you, push you, leave the first time.

[Amy Duggar King]

Run for the hills.

[Podcast Host]

Tell somebody you trust.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

And do not let that person near you again.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Because I mean, I, you know, you and I grew up in a physically abusive home.

[Amy Duggar King]

Same.

[Podcast Host]

And it does. You're predisposed to fall into abusive relationships because it's all you've ever known. It's all you've ever known. And you're so convinced that especially as a woman, women are more susceptible to it because you're so convinced that your whole life purpose is to be in service to a man and that everything is your fault. If you're raped, it's your fault. If you're assaulted, it's your fault. So you end up in these scenarios where when someone harms you, the first thing you ask is, oh my God, what did I do wrong? Oh my God, I shouldn't have said that. Oh, my God. And I was, I was looking at a. It was yesterday, actually. I looked at an Instagram reel and it was about abuse and ending up in abusive relationships and kind of some of those red flags. And there was a bunch of comments from women who were talking about how it affected them as adults. And one woman said, you know, she's like, it wasn't that I couldn't communicate. I was just so afraid of upsetting people that I wouldn't speak. And then couple comments down in reply to that, there's a man who says, well, good, you'd make a great wife. Quiet and submissive.

[Amy Duggar King]

It's abuse. I get away with it.

[Podcast Host]

I will push back on any conservative talking bro who really pushes this submissive wife thing because it's just abuse. It's just abuse. If you are opposed to equality and parity in a marriage, then you want an abusive marriage. Pass.

[Amy Duggar King]

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[Podcast Host]

In the app online and in stores. Boom. No thanks.

[Amy Duggar King]

No.

[Podcast Host]

So you close up, you drive off. You're. I'm done. What's happened since then? Because I. The emotional toll of having to cut this, this huge piece of your life just out.

[Amy Duggar King]

Out. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And then there's the, you know, there's the hurdle with your faith too, of like, right. This whole family is supposed to be so holy, so righteous. So in service of the God that I serve, right? And this is what they're doing. So like, what does that journey after that drive out look like?

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh, I mean, I have daily mental funerals all the time.

[Podcast Host]

That is a great term. I'm stealing that.

[Amy Duggar King]

Okay, you can, but I do. I mean, I. Even on Instagram, everyone looks so happy. Everyone has seemed healed. You know, they're wearing jeans now. They're cutting their hair. They're doing all these things. And I'm so proud of the girls and. And hopefully the guys are doing great too. But like, I was ridiculed and judged for wearing jeans that now they find completely fine.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

And it's just like, where, where's the logic here? Where's the balance? Where. Why does. Why do the rules have to exist in the first place? You know? And so I do love the fact that they are growing into their own and becoming these hopefully amazing women and moms and wives that can actually speak and talk back and like, have opinions and form, you know, form opinions. But I have to daily remind myself that. But abuse is also something that is not mentioned. And I don't want to go back there. Right. I want the best for them. Sure, I can love them from afar, but there's boundaries and there's boundaries on purpose.

[Podcast Host]

And where does the family stand with Josh?

[Amy Duggar King]

I have no idea. I think half of them are divided. I think a lot of them ride the fence. I don't think a lot of them want to talk about it. I think a lot of them are just like, oh, well, that's just our past and that's not my future. And they don't really go there. Yeah, they just to the line.

[Podcast Host]

Fortunate. Because what I've learned in my life is that you either face the darkness or at some point it turns around and faces you.

[Amy Duggar King]

I 100 agree with that.

[Podcast Host]

It's much harder to do the latter.

[Amy Duggar King]

I just don't really respect someone that isn't going to just stand up for what is right. I just, I don't have. I don't have. Exhausting. It's exhausting. I don't have the energy for it anymore. You know, I say in the book that it's. It's almost like the Truman Show. I don't know if you ever watched that movie where Truman is great. His life is wonderful and going, you know, happy, go lucky. And then all of a sudden he realizes his entire existence has been a lie. And he hits the wall. He hits a wall. I. I hit that wall. I hit that wall. And now I'm just like, what does life look like without all of these people in my life that were supposed to be there? And it's just cr. It's just a really, really crazy situation. And really eye opening to realize that, like, if people lie to you People cheat on you. If people hurt you in any kind of way, disrespect you, belittle you, speak in a condescending tone. All of that, that's, that's not love. And that could be family relationships, a co worker, a boss, it could be your neighbor, it can be literally anyone. I just don't have time for that same.

[Podcast Host]

Life is too short.

[Amy Duggar King]

I don't have time for it.

[Podcast Host]

Life is way too short. One of the things that like again, during deconstruction and all this healing, I finally got to a place where fine wasn't good enough.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And so one of my decision making cues for me is it's either a fuck yes or a fuck no. Because my life is too short. My life is too short and I don't want to. Especially for major decisions like where I live, who I marry, what I'm, you know, where I'm traveling. I don't want to say fine. Oh, it's fine. Those areas, those big life altering areas, it's either gotta be an absolutely yes or an absolutely no. And where do you feel like, what have you noticed grow and change about you since driving away that day?

[Amy Duggar King]

Oh my gosh, there is so much peace. I'm telling you, I'm hitting it in the background again. Sorry, I, I, There is so much peace. I am a whole different person than I was back then. I smiled on, on cue, I laughed, I did all the things, but I was a broken person.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

And now. Yeah, hurting, hurting that people don't, I mean, they don't even know half the stuff that's in this book. But now I can literally say, I wake up with a smile on my face and I know that my child is safe. I am safe. There's no yelling in the home. There's no like insane expectations. My child can just live freely and have this beautiful childhood. I don't have to worry about predators. There's all of these things that I am so proud of myself for doing the hard work to change a generation for him, you know, not just his, but when he has kids someday, maybe, you know, if he has a wife someday, how is he going to treat his wife? It's all about, it's like a ripple effect.

[Podcast Host]

It is. And breaking generational trauma is one of the hardest things in the world. But so important it is because these cycles continue to repeat because people will not face them. And then we pass it on to our kids.

[Amy Duggar King]

It's all hidden. It's all hidden until you're like, oh, why'd I Do that. Oh, because someone did that to you. And it continues and continues. And you see those broken families. That's why you see so much hurt and so much pain in this world. Exactly. Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

And you know as this. I mean, this is like deep emotional trauma. This is like really intimate stories for you. This is something that you clearly sat with yourself and you. I'm gonna tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

What are your hopes for this book, for the people that read it? What are some things that you hope are a ripple effect from the holy desperation?

[Amy Duggar King]

I love this question. I want to talk to every broken person who feels like they're not enough, who feels like they have nothing to offer this world, who feels so broken from the choices that they've made or the things that's happened to them, and let them know that you are worthy of love and that you can stop the abuse from happening. You can educate yourself. You can learn what gaslighting is and love bombing and all of these names and all these descriptions of what everything is and really decipher what is love and what isn't and what is healthy love.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

And from there, like I said, it's a ripple effect. You begin to invite peace into your life. And so for me, if I don't have peace about anything, kind of like you're fuck no or yes kind of thing. Mine is like, if there's peace, if I have peace in my heart about a situation, then I feel like it's a yes. But if I don't, if I'm jittery, if I don't sleep at night, if I just always have it in my mind thinking, and I've got all these, like, a million ideas of what could happen wrong and all of that, I don't feel like that's the path I need. And so I hope that more people become Holy Disruptors and they break toxic cycles and patterns that are harming them, because that's not love. It's just not love. And that is like, the whole point of the entire book is just, here's my story, here's the truth. I'm gonna connect the dots for you on why I left the show. There's many of them. There's many, many reasons why there's a lot of dots, but they're all for a good reason. And it can help just so many people.

[Podcast Host]

And how do you see the role? Because, you know, holy disruptors, again, there's an entire generation of women, specifically, who are coming out of these Religious sects. I don't know if you've read the well Trained Wife by Tia Levings have. Oh, so good.

[Amy Duggar King]

So good.

[Podcast Host]

But, you know, women like Tia and coming out and coming forward, how do you see the role of the Holy disruptor in the climate that we're in right now? Like, culturally, politically, we're seeing this rise in Christian nationalism, Christian fundamentalism. How do you see the role of, of these disruptors in this environment right now?

[Amy Duggar King]

I think they're everywhere. I think they're becoming. They're finding their voice. They're not silenced, you know, or they have been silenced and they're not going to be anymore. And they're not letting fear control them. And I think people are breaking free. I really do. I think the chains are being just completely. Just tossed to the side and we're not afraid to stand up. And we're realizing that we're not alone. We are not alone.

[Podcast Host]

That was the most shocking thing about my platform, doing what it did, because this is all pretty new. It started in February.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes, that's what I was told.

[Podcast Host]

And I did not realize. I obviously knew there was a lot of people like me who had been in similar. I didn't realize how many.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah, I still don't know. I. I can't wait to find out from people that have read this and have watched this podcast and reach out to me and I, you know, I want to be relatable. Please reach out. I would love that message me, all the things, but I, I don't want to feel alone, you know, and I did for a really long time. And so I am very curious to see how many people will say, I've been there, I've done it. Help me through it. I'm here, you know, because we all have to, like, hold hands and band together and just be like, we are.

[Podcast Host]

Not going to be afraid doing this.

[Amy Duggar King]

We are not doing this. We are not doing it. We're not doing it today, we're not doing tomorrow. We're done for the rest of our lives.

[Podcast Host]

And I think stories like yours in particular, and one of the things, because I get a lot of questions online about, you know, how are you staying hopeful with everything that's happening? And one of the things, with stories like yours, like mine, but also Christian nationalism being on display like it is right now, we're seeing it for what it is we're seeing. We are watching Christian nationalists protect abusers. We are watching this discrepancy between how women are treated and men are treated. And it is on Full display. There's no pretense anymore.

[Amy Duggar King]

And. And what I'm hiding.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, there's no hiding.

[Amy Duggar King]

There's no hiding it like it is there.

[Podcast Host]

And we. I think as. As bad as things feel sometimes, there's so much benefit to. We finally get to tear it down because we finally get to see it for what it is. The lies are gone. The facade is gone. And I have a lot of, like, really amazing, like, true Christians who follow my platform and a lot of amazing atheists and everybody in between, but especially the believers, get to say, that is not Christ. Right. I will not let you hijack this religion for your lust for power and abuse. And I think that we finally get to dismantle that movement from the top down, and I think that your experience is, like, an amazing reflection of that.

[Amy Duggar King]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

What happens after the book? Like, what are some of the goals you have? Well, like what?

[Amy Duggar King]

I don't know. This book was very heavy.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

This book, very heavy.

[Podcast Host]

It's hard. I was reading it. I was like, oh, my goodness.

[Amy Duggar King]

Crying. I cried a lot. I. I did the audiobook. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's a. That I take. I take the listeners on a ride on that. I. I hold nothing back. You know, transparent. Transparency is, like, everything to me, and very. It has to be. It has to be. And so that was just a whole other. Whole other journey, but because of this book was just so light or so. So heavy. I want to do something maybe lighter, but I also don't want to stop talking about being a holo disruptor because so many people, so many women especially, need to hear the truth.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

And so I don't know.

[Podcast Host]

You're.

[Amy Duggar King]

You're a podcaster, and I love it. And I don't know, maybe I see myself going down the same road. I don't know. I don't know what's gonna happen.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, you bet, though.

[Amy Duggar King]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

But I think. I think it's gonna be. I'm excited for maybe a children's book.

[Amy Duggar King]

I feel like a children's book would be cool.

[Podcast Host]

How cool would that be to do a children's book book? Like, to really, again, disrupt.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Those. You know, those harmful things that get taught to kids about. You're. You're sinful and you're broken and your questions are evil. Like, what if kids understood that they're not perfect and that that's okay and that's okay with their questions.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Imagine that. Yeah. I don't know. There's. I think he's opening Doors, and I'm just, like, going through them, and I'm just like, okay, do I have. Do I have peace about it? Do I have peace about it? And then I'm like, okay, I do. I do. I feel like he's. He's going before me.

[Podcast Host]

And my last question is actually related to this. Like, how has your faith changed based on coming from this movement, being involved in this. The scandals into where you are now? How has. How has that changed and, like, major faith evolve?

[Amy Duggar King]

It has grown so much. I will literally say this. I used to be like, yeah, I'm a Christian, whatever. I mean, I, you know, I definitely, like, like, believed in him and that kind of thing. But it wasn't until all of this started happening that I was like, I need him daily. Daily at, like, you know, no matter what it is. But especially with all the scandals going on. I mean, I listened to, like, praise and worship music for hours because I was just bawling my eyes out.

[Podcast Host]

I have to reset my nervous system.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes. My nervous system was destroyed, let me tell you. And the last scandal did me in for years. It did me in because not only did that happen to children that I don't even know that I want to hug and love and be like quella de vil and have like a hundred, 100 puppies, you know, like a hundred kids. I want to protect them all. I want to protect every single child. But at the same time, I just. I mean, I don't even know what I was saying. What was I saying?

[Podcast Host]

Like, protecting kids, hugging the kids, some of them. You didn't know.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah, I lost it. I had something really good there. Hey, thank you. I'm so glad he's here. You hear that deep voice?

[Podcast Host]

It's the voice of God.

[Amy Duggar King]

I love that.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, he's there.

[Amy Duggar King]

My guardian angel. But it really did. It. It controlled, like, just what music I listened to, how I protected my child even more. I was more just. I don't know, I was just more sensitive to the things of this world and just how broken it is and how. How many systems are broken and are meant to destroy women and are so not like Christ. And, you know, the enemy hates women. You know, they hate us. He hates us. And so just to shine a light in the darkness is really what I'm about, and I'm going to keep on doing every day.

[Podcast Host]

So also, before we wrap up, where can everyone find you? Where can they find your website, social media that you're on, whatever you're working on? Where can they follow you?

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes. Okay. So my Instagram is at Amy Rochelle King, and I just share, like, real life and real stories and my healing journey and how the heck I'm, you know, working through all of this. What is all. What's going on? Yes. And then tick tock. Is Amy our king? I've got Amy duggerking.com is the website. And you can just find more about that. You can, you know, contact me. Like I keep saying, if you're struggling, if you're hurting, if you feel like you're all alone, I'm here. You are here. You are not alone.

[Podcast Host]

No. There's so many of us.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So many.

[Amy Duggar King]

So, so many. So I just. I love being a part of that and just joining together. I think you're stronger together today.

[Podcast Host]

Man, I knew this was going to be a great conversation. I knew it. I knew it, too. I was, like, so amped for it.

[Amy Duggar King]

And.

[Podcast Host]

Yes. Oh, it's so great. And so everybody. Her book came out when this is released. Her book came out yesterday, and it's called Holy Disruptor. And I would highly recommend reading it, especially for those of you that are deconstructing. You're in your deconstruction journey. And for those of you who are wrestling with what true faith means. I think that was one of the things that came through so much for me.

[Amy Duggar King]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

Was true faith versus this legalism versus systems that harm people. You know, like, the basis of the faith that we were taught is love. And if it does not originate from that point, if it does not uplift and it does not edify, it's not love. So I would highly recommend her book. I'm very excited to see, like, what happens when it comes out, and I'm.

[Amy Duggar King]

So excited for feedback.

[Podcast Host]

Well, I think we should do an Instagram live, too.

[Amy Duggar King]

I think we should do something with that. So you read most of it. Did your jaw drop? Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah. There were some things. And like, because there were things. Because I never watched the show.

[Amy Duggar King]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

So I remember hearing the premise. I think I heard of the show in 2011, but I was. There were several. There were levels to this. So I've always been a closeted feminist. When I was younger and I had this. I knew that the IBLP was part of it, and I was like, fuck that. I do not want to hear another sermon on submission. I was immediately out. Also, pregnancy is in my top three fears. So the idea of 19 children just kind of made me nauseous. So I. I would rather swim in open water with sharks, with A cut foot than be pregnant. Like, that is. That's the level I'm rocking right now. Yeah. So I watched a couple episodes, and it was so triggering from my childhood. And, like, I'm looking at these.

[Amy Duggar King]

I'm so sorry.

[Podcast Host]

No, no, I'm looking at these kids. And, like, especially the littles. And I was like, this is. I was like, oh, I know where this goes. I know where this goes. I was like, I'm just not interested. And then when the scandal was broken, I'm like, and there it is.

[Amy Duggar King]

There it is.

[Podcast Host]

You know, and right after I left Liberty was the Jerry Falwell pool boy scandal. And I'm like, and there it is. And then I was at church and Hillsong in New York with Carl Lentz. And there it is.

[Amy Duggar King]

There it is.

[Podcast Host]

I was just like, I'm out. So not having context for a lot of the story, except for the premise. I was reading your book, and it one feels horrifically familiar. Cause it's like, it's just. It's a rebrand of the same abusive system that is in these fundamentalist communities. But also some of it was way more shocking than I realized. Like, and there was a couple moments I had to like. I'm like, I'm just gonna.

[Amy Duggar King]

Just take a minute. Take a minute. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And it's. And it also, like, it's so enraging even how they would speak to and demean you for just existing.

[Amy Duggar King]

For existing.

[Podcast Host]

For existing.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And it was like. It was like walking down memory lane and also really, really angering. Like, I just. I had moments where it's just. And I'm surprised, but not surprised. Yeah.

[Amy Duggar King]

Well, keep on reading.

[Podcast Host]

I know I've got like three chapters left, I think. Yeah, 15.

[Amy Duggar King]

You're going to. I think you're going to love the ending.

[Podcast Host]

Yes. I'm just like, cannot wait because I got an advanced copy. Thank you so much for being here.

[Amy Duggar King]

Thank you for being willing to do this so much.

[Podcast Host]

Tell the story and be brave and be vulnerable, because that's really what we need. If I can support you in any way, please always let me know. And for everyone listening, really consider being a holy disruptor, whatever that means. Because again, I have a bunch of atheists that follow me too. You're. Same, same boat, same, same.

[Amy Duggar King]

Disruption can happen anywhere. That is toxic. It doesn't have to be.

[Podcast Host]

And they often are the best at it because they're like, this is objectively wrong.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Shush. I'm not allowing it.

[Amy Duggar King]

Yep.

[Podcast Host]

So that's my encouragement is that. Remember that these systems can be broken, they can be escaped, and they can be healed. And I'm very excited to hear also what my listeners think of the book as they read it. And I will see you next week on Flipping Tables. Thank you for being here.

[Amy Duggar King]

Thank you so much.