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- [00:01]
A
Daniel or Danny F. Collins was born on April 12, 1983, in Fort Pierce, Florida. He would later go on to play college baseball and was drafted by the Atlanta Braves. But that's not what's important for our story. Following a motorcycle accident. Accident and a subsequent opioid addiction, Danny would then spend 14 years in prison, where he became part of a white supremacist group. He deeply, deeply supported Donald Trump in his first election, claiming that it would save the white race. And now he speaks out against racism, against the injustice of the incarceration system in America and how we've now expanded that to immigrants. And this today is a journey about hope and education, learning, transforming yourself from the bottom up. Professional baseball player, drug addict, homeless. Now speaking, being active, trying to change hearts and minds. Danny F. Collins today on Flipping Tables. Danny, welcome to Flipping Tables. Thank you for being here.
- [01:07]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [01:09]
A
So we were just talking before we got on about the craziness of life and our circumstances and surrounding. How are you holding up with everything that's been going on the last month?
- [01:19]
B
I mean, doing fairly well, all things considered. Um, as I said, it's difficult when you live in a community that doesn't align with your. Your beliefs and values. So it's full throttle 24 7.
- [01:33]
A
Yes, it's. It's pretty. It's pretty hot and heavy and. And I gave a little bit of an intro in the beginning of the episode, but I would love to hear, like, your story because you have a platform built on changing your mind, and I would. I would love to hear about, you know, you getting into MAGA in the first place and then how you eventually ended up leaving.
- [01:55]
B
Okay, well, just to give you a little backstory, I used to play professional baseball. I grew up in a small town in South Florida. I signed with the Atlanta Braves at the age of 19. I played for about three years, ended up getting in a motorcycle accident. Yeah. Succumbed to opiate addiction.
- [02:13]
A
Oh, damn.
- [02:15]
B
In that process, I lost everything and ultimately went to prison. I was raised in a community that's Christian, conservative. I didn't really get into politics, I guess, as much until Trump came into the forefront of everything. And I think that kind of got a lot more people involved and engaged, at least especially poor white people in the rural communities that were previously kind of, you know, disengaged and not really paying attention to what was going on. And I was one of those people. But I went to prison in 2009, and, you know, I was. I did 10 years in prison years. But while in prison, I met a guy, I was this white Christian conservative, and I had met this guy who was a black Muslim, and he was sentenced from the same community as me at the age of 16. He was sentenced to 20 years, followed by 10 years of probation. What? But him and I. Yeah, him and I became friends, and we're from the same community. And typically when you're from the same area in prison, you kind of, you know, gravitate towards people because it gives you. It's like a conversation starter, right?
- [03:27]
A
Yeah.
- [03:28]
B
And I used to get the Wall Street Journal Senate, and he was always interested in reading it after I got done reading it, so we started talking. We started talking about politics and, you know, the economy and, you know, different things. But, you know, one of the things that I would tell him this was like, right when Trump was starting to come in to the political scene and Campaigning for President, 2016, right around that time, I would tell him that, you know, Trump's going to be the best thing for America and the best thing for the black community. And, you know, black people need to get off the Democrat plantation. And, you know, the Democrats don't care about you, they just want your vote and, you know, all the same, like, rhetoric.
- [04:03]
A
And so this is all happening in prison.
- [04:06]
B
In prison, yeah. So, like, in prison, we're watching it, you know, we're watching on TV every day. And the biggest thing with us in prison is, like, we're just looking for somebody that's going to change the game time. And we know, like, that's a federal thing, you know. Yeah, President, but, you know, on a state level, you know, we want people that are going to do something for prison reform. You know, that was something that Trump had talked about, too, with the First Step Act. And in Florida, we've had Republican control for 20 plus years, and we never get any change in the system. But, you know, I would tell him that, you know, one of the other things I would say is that, you know, stop being the victim. Like, these are the. I mean, the things that I said, like, looking back on it, it just, like, blows my mind because I would say, you know, we're responsible for our choices. These are the consequences, our choices. Nobody put us in prison but ourselves. But what he said to me, like, it really hit me. And he said that that's easy for you to say. You know, when that judge sentenced you, he looked at you as the all American boy.
- [05:08]
A
Yeah.
- [05:09]
B
You know, ex professional baseball player. You had went to college and, you know, succumbed to mental health and substance abuse. Issues. But when he sentenced you, he looked at you, probably saw his son in you and had 14 felonies. You went to prison and back home twice. Because before I'll get out for one felony that I was sentenced at the age of 16. He said, when that judge sentenced me, he looked at me as a thug, a savage, you know, inherently criminal, inherently violent. Just another young black kid lost to the system. He didn't see his son in me, he didn't see any redeeming qualities in me.
- [05:43]
A
And so he was, he was serving 20 years for one felony, for one.
- [05:47]
B
Felony at the age of 16. And the Department of Juvenile justice had recommended that he gets a rehabilitation program. Like not even prison time. That was a serious felony. The charge was a serious felony. But nobody was hurt, nobody was physically hurt. And he was the least culpable. So there was like two other co defendants and he was the youngest. He was the least culpable. He literally didn't even really have anything there other than just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And.
- [06:10]
A
Oh my God.
- [06:11]
B
So, and, and what's crazy is that his, one of his co defendants was this 23 or 24 year old female. She ended up turning state and then testified on him. And, and it was his brother and there was a weapon involved. But you know, again, nobody got hurt, nobody was shot or anything.
- [06:31]
A
That's crazy that like, nobody like it, nobody was harmed. Like. And how I'm gonna, I'm gonna go on a tangent here. I'm gonna. Just one second. How do you get 20 years when someone's not hurt and you're not even the prime offender and we can't put a rapist in prison for more than a year. That really angers me.
- [06:53]
B
And that's one of the things he would say all the time. He goes, I can't tell you how many times I've watched sexual offenders come into this prison and leave, you know, and then some even come back, you know, or you know, people who reaffamed. I've watched them leave and come back before I get a chance to get out once. And, and what's sad is like I said, the Department of Juvenile justice recommended that he get a rehabilitation program. You know, he had all this evidence that, that, that, that were mitigating circumstances to where he could have got some rehabilitation.
- [07:22]
A
You know, that's insane. How old were you when you were.
- [07:26]
B
When you were 26 when I first went to prison. So, and, and so that started to open up my eyes. So like I think Candace Owens Wrote her book around 2020. So him and I were at the same camp for years together. And I remember her writing the book Blackout. And again, I had it sent in to prison. And then I started telling black people, this is who you need to be. Like, you know, you need to be like Candace, and this is who you should listen to. And. And. And he said, you know, who you need to read is Michelle Alexander. And he told me to read the New Jim Crow. Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness by Michelle Alexander. When I read that book, they won't even let you get it in prison. I didn't read it until I got home. And when I got home and I read. I read it like, the first week that I got out, and I look back at the times and all the conversations I had with him, and I was like, he was right. So in my arrogance, too, I think I would look down, and I was like, what? You know, what's a young kid that's been in prison since he was 16? A young black kid. What's he going to teach me? You know what I mean? That's how arrogant I was. But he used to always tell me every single day, you underestimate me. You underestimate me. Because he had been in prison since he was 16. Books, read books, read books. Now, here's a kid that didn't graduate high school, he didn't get to go to prom, he didn't get his driver's license, none of this stuff. And then spent all these years in prison. He never succumbed to, like, the gang culture in there, any of the subcultures in there. And all he did was work out, read books, work out, read books. And. And he was so wise beyond his years. Like, the. The. The knowledge that he had. Like, I. He was right. I did underestimate it because, like, I was so caught up in, you know, thinking that I was right and the needing to be right, you know? Like, I think you hear about white fragility and you hear these terms. Like, I didn't know those terms at the time, but now I look back at it, and I'm like, oh, wow. Yeah, that was me, you know? But another thing that had happened when we were in prison was that in Florida, you. You have to work, right? Everybody gets assigned a job, and you don't get paid to work in Florida at all. Like, there's, like, a handful of jobs that pay. That are paying jobs for inmates so you could work. Like, I did 10 years in prison and never got paid because Slavery is.
- [09:38]
A
Legal in the US as long as you're incarcerated.
- [09:41]
B
So that's what he told me. So one day he got a job and he got assigned to an outside work squad where he can go into the city and get to mow the side of the highways and pick up the trash and stuff like that. Well, in prison we look at that as like a privilege, like oh my God, you get to go out the gate every once in a while. You'll get some street food. If you have a cool officer that brings you some food in, you'll get to see people like civilians and. And it's like, oh, you get away from the prison, right? And that's kind of how they package it to you to make like submissive and subservient to. But he was like, when he went to, to the, they call it ICT and he came back, he was like, I'm going to jail or the box world of solitary confinement. And I was like, for what? And he was like, they put me on a work squad. I was like, well that's a good thing. You get to go out the gate. You go, probably eat some good food every now and then. And he said, no, that's not a good thing, it's modern day slavery. And that's when he educated me about the 13th Amendment and the abolishment of slavery, except when punishment for a crime, you know. But again, I didn't get it right then and there. I it now. But you know, looking back at it like he was full of so much information and knowledge, but it meant that much to him where he said, you know what, I will go to solitary confinement before I go work. Wow, these people as a slave for free, you know. And he had kept going to the box and finally he's like, you know what? I need my game time. I need to get out. And he did what they asked him to do because that's what they'll do. They'll put you in confinement and take away your gain time if you refuse to work. So a refusal to work is, it's like one of the worst punishments, you know, one of the worst infractions that you can commit in prison because they want the free labor, you know, they want you to work and they want you to be submissive. Like they don't want you to incite a riot, as they would call it, for refusing to work because they don't want you to rally other people because they need people to work. That's how prisons say, you know, functioning and flowing. So that was Pretty much like what had happened to me in prison and I was MAGA all that time.
- [11:45]
A
And what was it, you know, you're, you're in prison, you know, and obviously you grew up in this conservative space. But what was it about Trump like while you're there that made him so appealing to you like, because you're not going to get to vote coming out of there. What made him, what did you think at that time was like the winning things about him.
- [12:04]
B
So that's the stuff that I didn't fully understand. Right. That I was literally supporting a party that did not have my best interest in mind as a convicted felon. The Republican Party has had the super majority for the House, the Senate as well as the Governor's mansion in Florida for 20 plus years and they've done nothing in terms of prison reform or helping people who are incarcerated.
- [12:26]
A
Yeah.
- [12:27]
B
So why I would support the Republican Party, but I think it was just because that's what I was conditioned to do for so long as a Christian, as a conservative, you know, just taught that, you know, as a kid, never really questioned why. But I would say the things that I thought that I identified with was like, oh well, you know, they're anti abortion and you know, they're anti gay marriage and as a Christian I'm supposed to support these things. You know, again, never really understanding why. But the other thing about Trump and, and what you'll hear from a lot of white people and you heard it in the voices of, you know, Charlie Kirk and you know, the Tucker Carlson's and, and a lot of the white right wing influencers, even you know, the Andrew Tates, is that, you know, white people are under attack and we're being discriminated against and our way of life and our values, you know, you know, Christians were being persecuted in this country and Trump kind of spoke to that. Right. Because like anybody who looks at Trump for what he is, he was a rich, you know, spoiled kid who got a 400 million dollar inheritance, could not understand the working class or blue collar men or, or Christian, Christian people at all ever.
- [13:37]
A
Like, it's, it's like a different planet.
- [13:40]
B
Right. Like so how he even, I, like people even identify with him, how I did, I don't. It blows my mind now looking at it. But back then like the other thing too is that he presented himself as anti establishment. I'm going after Republicans and Democrats and the status quo and he's not a politician. And then you're taught that, oh, he's a good businessman and United States of America is just one big business. And, you know, he's going to make the economy better. Even though he bankrupted casinos and had, like, six bankruptcies and was given money to still, like, fail and literally had MAGA not saved his empire, like, he would. Went completely under. Yeah, there would have been no saving him. But that's the stuff that he, you know, he spoke to. I don't know how he spoke to that, but I think, you know, I say it a lot now, is that he made us feel safe in our mediocrity. You know, like, you don't have to learn anything new when you support Trump because, you know, a lot of the left was teaching new concepts, and people weren't ready for that, like, and then kind of hijacked the word woke. But teaching, you know, like, we didn't. I didn't know anything about pronouns. Even coming out of prison. Out of prison. Like, I didn't understand, like, you know, the whole. This whole concept of more than two genders and the difference between gender and sex. And. And so, like, there was a lot of things that I. I didn't learn. You know, we're taught, you know, the whitewashing of history in a very sanitized version of history. So, like, you know, especially in Florida, where DeSantis was putting in the curriculum that, you know, black Americans benefited from slavery and they were taught trades and skills and. And as if they couldn't do that on their own and didn't before.
- [15:21]
A
Before they were kidnapped.
- [15:23]
B
Yeah. So, like, it's insane to me to. To look at it now, but. And that's what they're. That's why they're so adamant about doing what they're doing now. But I can say one thing about me is that I never wanted to willfully be racist. I even joined a white supremacist organization in prison, and I didn't do it at all my first seven years. I didn't do it until Trump campaigned for president. And it was literally because I thought the white man in the United States of America was under attack, that we were being discriminated against. And it was almost like a rallying cry. Like, you know, some of us got to speak up and have a backbone. And, you know, it's not our fault. We're not responsible for what our ancestors did. Quit blaming us for everything. Take personal accountability. Quit being the victim. You know, all the things that, you know, we're taught to say.
- [16:11]
A
All those punchlines.
- [16:12]
B
All the punchlines, yeah. You know, especially when you're talking about the criminal justice system, which I was obviously in, you know, black on black crime, you know, like, why, why don't we say white on white crime? You know, but you know, these things that it's a very skewed perspective.
- [16:29]
A
And, and it's and it's intentionally like meant to be a dog whistle because, like, regardless of whatever crime happens to you, it's most likely going to be committed by someone of your race. Like, that's just how crime works. To portray it, to do that intentional spin is to discredit crime in black communities or perpetuate it against black victims, while the exact same thing happens in white communities.
- [16:52]
B
Yeah. And it's proximity and it's fear mongering really. Like that's what it all is. And I see now, like, especially when I went to the extreme of joining a white supremacist organization, in my head I still didn't think that I was racist. I would have been like, well, you can be pro black, why can't I be pro white? If you've got black pride and brown pride, why can't I have white pride? And not really focusing on the idea of white pride being centered in the oppression of black people and brown people in anti blackness, you know, whereas black pride and brown pride was formed to survive that oppression. It was formed to stop the erasure of cultural identity. So there was a big difference even in what white pride meant and what black pride meant.
- [17:33]
A
Yeah.
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B
And then not even back then, obviously I didn't understand that, you know, race was a social construct and why it was created to perpetuate racism. You know, most people identified by their ethnicity or nation of origin. Back then, you know, white people wasn't even a thing. So these were all things that I had to learn. But most MAGA people don't feel comfortable in learning. They're so caught up in trying to work 60, 80 hours a week to barely get by that they need to scapegoat other people. They don't have time to read books, they don't have time to, to watch documentaries or learn things because they're, they're so busy working and they're so angry about the fact that they have to work and barely get by and they're struggling. So what they do is, and what I did was that I would look at other people that were poor like me and then blame them, you know, like, and I see it all the time with maga, like if diabetics or if, if drug addicts are people who suffer from opiate addiction or fentanyl addiction or getting Narcan. How dare you give them Narcan when we have diabetics. You can't get insulin. You know, rather than getting mad at the billionaire class or whoever's creating, you know, this. The same thing with prison. How dare you give them people in prison resources when we're out here and we can't get the resources, we can't get education or healthcare. How dare you give it to them when they committed a crime. I didn't commit a crime. You know, so, like, these are things that people on the outside always say, and it's things that, you know, people in my own family, in my own community would say. You hear it all the time from them. So, like, I just kind of bought into that narrative. Even being in prison myself. It was like, well, I gotta blame myself for being here, and these are, you know, the consequences. But, you know, if I just follow Jesus and get my life together, then it'll all be fine. And now I can, you know, scapegoat and blame everybody else.
- [19:19]
A
But I think that's amazing because it's just so much of the conversation has been left versus right, left versus right. And it really is about, you know, like Lyndon B. Johnson said, you know, if you convince the poorest white man that he is better than the poorest colored man, he won't mind when you pick his pockets. In fact, he'll empty his pockets for you. And it's like, it is exactly that. Because not only does reading the books and doing the work take so much time and effort that a lot of people are not willing to put in or can't, but also it. It allows the rich to skirt the real issue. Because if people have homes and they have education and they don't have to panic if they go to the doctor because of expenses, it's. You're not as hateful, you're not looking to scape. Scapegoat other people. When you're actually doing well, when you're well fed and you're well rested and you're not stressed out of your mind and you're not sick. So if you have a system where people are in that space, especially the impoverished of any race, you can immediately funnel them into, well, it's the immigrants are the reason that you're poor. It's this person is the reason that you're poor. It's this person is the reason that you're suffering. Instead of, oh, we have the money for universal healthcare. It would. It would save us $450 billion a year. To have universal health care, but it's not convenient to make money.
- [20:40]
B
Yep. And so what I'm dealing with right now, even with healthcare, like I had to go in and get surgery and paying $400 a month in insurance and still the amount of money that the patient responsibility is just absolutely insane. And in the past, I probably would have found somebody else to blame rather than just looking at the system and realizing that it's not even broken, it's doing what they want it to do.
- [21:01]
A
It's doing exactly what they want it to do. So what, what changed? I mean, you're in it. You like you joined a white supremacy group.
- [21:08]
B
You were so in what really the, the, this is the, the information that I, the, the dots that I connected. So the 13th amendment, the abolishment of slavery, except when punishment for a crime. Right. You fast forward 100 years, you've got, you know, reconstruction area then or Reconstruction era, and then Jim Crow segregation. Well, during Jim Crow segregation, black people face second class citizenship, right. They were disenfranchised from voting. You had to pay poll taxes, pass literacy exams, could be discriminated with jobs and education and even loans and basically everything based on the color of their skin. Literally the color of their skin. Well, LYNDON B. JOHNSON, 1964, they passed the Civil Rights Act. Then they passed the 1965 Voting Rights act which says that they can no longer discriminate based on race. Well, as a Republican my entire life, that I always thought the systemic racism didn't exist. It was a thing of the past. You know that we have rectified it for the 64 Civil Rights act and the 65 Voting Rights Act. Well then what I learned though after that was that from like 1970, right after the civil rights era movement, that there was a 700% increase in our prison population and that 1 in 3 black males carry a convicted felon label, 1 in 6 Hispanic males and 1 in 17 white males. And, and I saw those numbers and I realized that in 2025, there's one class of people right now that you can still discriminate against legally. You can disenfranchise from voting, you can deny housing, you can deny jobs, you can deny, you know, loans from the bank based on a label, based on a status. And that was convicted felons. And I had experienced this firsthand. You know, I live this and, and I, and I asked myself, well, why would that be? Do I think it's a coincidence that one in three black males carry a convicted felon label since the end of the civil rights movement and Jim Crow segregation, Or is there something more nefarious to play to? Either I have to think black people are inherently criminal and evil and violent and all of these other things, or there is a system that has been designed to deliberately target and keep a demographic people oppressed. And then I learned, as being a poor white male, that I just became collateral damage in a system that wasn't even designed for me. That system was not designed for me. And so many times that system tried to give me chances. They would slap me on the wrist every time I get arrested. We need to protect his baseball career. Let's sweep this under the rug. Let's pretend this didn't happen. And so finally, I got arrested so many times that they were like, okay, we can't do this anymore.
- [23:50]
A
Like, yeah, there's nothing else we can do.
- [23:52]
B
Yeah, I've been arrested, like, 15 times. You know, most of the time, it just started out with disorderly intoxication, public intoxication, you know, minor alcohol offenses. But it progressively got worse, you know, through addiction, as addiction got progressively worse. But they never rehabilitated me, or they never. And they never sent me to jail. They would just kind of slap me on the wrist, act like this didn't happen. Let's protect his career, and let's move forward. And until they couldn't. Then I realized when I saw that and I saw how the system was designed and being in prison and seeing that black people make up 13% of the population in the U.S. they say, and roughly 40 to 45% of our jail and prison population. We went from 300,000 inmates in 1970 to as high as 2.1 million inmates in mid 2000.
- [24:39]
A
So that is insane. That is a staggering number.
- [24:42]
B
The explosion of mass incarceration in the United states, that we're 5% of the world's population, but we're 25% of its prison population. But we claim to be the land of the free incarcerate, more per capita than any other industrialized nation in the world. And it just. It blew my mind when I saw the numbers and how profitable the prison industrial complex is and how many. How much black people are overrepresented inside our prison system compared to, you know, their white counterparts? And I started looking at the data that, you know, white people and black people use marijuana at the same rates, but black people are three and a half more times likely to. To be arrested than white people.
- [25:22]
A
Well, and we have the comparison as well of when they were classifying drugs that you Know you. I think I have to double check this, but you needed 500 times the amount of white powder cocaine to qualify for the same prison sentence as crack cocaine. Yeah, like that is so. It's so like blatant because who uses powder cocaine and who typically uses crack.
- [25:45]
B
Cocaine at that time, at that time in the mid-1980s. Yep. And it was very deliberate. So and when. That's when I started to see and then even now, like what I'll get from most Republicans or magas. Well, you can thank Joe BIDEN in the 94 crime bill and Bill Clinton. And it's like, okay, we understand that like democrats during the 90s were doing the same thing. It was the tough on crime rhetoric. Everybody was talking about it. It was a way that they had to stay in office and get elected. Yeah. After Nixon, after Reagan, you know, then you had what, Jimmy Carter and then you had Bush. So like, like they had to do what they had to do to. It doesn't make it any better. But at least one thing about Biden was that he admitted that, hey, that was wrong here. Yeah, we screwed up. Whereas most, you know, Republicans will still say, oh, it doesn't exist. Systemic racism doesn't exist. We don't target black people. But if you hear all the language that they use, it's that, you know, black people are inherently criminal. Still to this day, if you look at red states compared to blue states and see how the criminal justice system operates within those states, how that they view, you know, black people compared to white people when it comes to crime in the language that they use, and it's clear as day, you know, what, what's going on. And that's what really opened up my eyes to be like, you know what? I'm supporting a party that is obviously inherently racist, whether they want to admit it or not. And I think that, you know, I have a lot of white people that I know that I grew up with in their heart of hearts, they don't believe that they're racist. They believe they're well intentioned. How dare you call me a white supremacist. How dare you say I support the politics of white supremacy. But then when you give them the data and information, they still, it's like, like you don't want to admit it. Like, I just showed a clip of what Charlie Kirk was saying about Jasmine Crockett and talking about the Great Replacement Theory. When I was in this white supremacist organization. There was a creed that they went by. It was the 14 words that we Must secure the existence of our race and a future for white children. Then it's followed with like a secondary slogan. You basically have a response, why? And it's so that the beauty of the white Aryan woman shall never perish from the earth. Well, white women. But the whole idea was that. And if you look at the policies of the Republican party, though they go hand in hand. They don't maybe not explicitly say that. Yeah, but they're so big on women not having bodily autonomy. Why? Because they want white women subjugated to white men. You know, like you need to be pushing out our babies. Be quiet. You know, stay in the house.
- [28:19]
A
My lineage, my. And it's, and it's always, it's always oriented towards the men. Right. Because it's, it's. The lineage is never referred to as the woman's lineage. It's always the male lineage. You have to give me these babies. If you marry someone of another race, you're, you know, race traitor or whatever it is. And they, I think what it is is that they one, they don't want to accept the actual data because it's too much. So they just push it away and say, no, you're lying. Like that can't possibly be true. But they, the, the core principles absolutely do over line. Like, but they, what they've done is in order to justify their alliance with white nationalism, they've narrowed the definition. Well, I don't fly a swastika and I don't claim that I'm a white supremacist. So therefore I'm not. It's the same way that they've narrowed the definition of sexual assault. Well, I didn't hide in the bushes and jump out and rape this woman, you know, with penetration. So therefore it's not rape. When really those definitions are so much bigger. But that's the intentional response of like, how do I still follow along with these excuses? But I don't get categorized over here either.
- [29:25]
B
Yeah. When I talk about white supremacy with most of the people in my community who are maga, who work and go, you know, pay their taxes, take care of their families, they think that they're well intentioned people that wouldn't cause any harm. And I'm not racist, I have black friend type of thing. But when they think of white supremacy, they think of the ball headed white guy on a prison yard with swastikas, you know.
- [29:47]
A
Yeah.
- [29:47]
B
I'm like, Hitler was not that. Yeah, they're literally rose to power through the political channels. Like through like what he had a Failed art student. Yeah. He didn't come out and say, hey, I'm going to be a dictator and. And put a gun to everybody's head. You know, like, he literally mesmerized him with his words. Like, the same thing with, like, the Trump. Like, he just captivated the people, like. Yeah. And I was like. And then he slowly chipped away at the norms and the constitution and the laws. Like, then, if you look at even present time, like, Vladimir Putin did the same thing in Russia.
- [30:21]
A
Same thing.
- [30:22]
B
Come out and become a dictator. He literally waited till Covid and then changed the constitution and made himself president until, like, 20, 30 something, and then started silencing the dissent. You know, anybody who spoke out against him to the point of killing political.
- [30:36]
A
Yeah, like, journalists that, like, defy him disappear or wind up dead. News sources that defy him get shut down. And, I mean, that's something that makes me really nervous right now, because we have all these court cases that Trump has put against all these news sources, and he's claiming libel and defamation. And literally the defamation is. They supported. They, like, they endorsed Kamala, which is totally legal, not outside their purview. But, you know, Jimmy Kimmel getting fired, like, all of these things, whereas we're witnessing the silencing of dissent. And it doesn't. When you have complete control of the government, you. Changing the Constitution is not hard.
- [31:10]
B
No, not at all. Yeah, you can start to ratify it. And that's. I had a friend say to me, a guy, a kid that I grew up with since we were, you know, in grade school was like, how can you say that he's silencing the opposition when you just posted a video with the Democrat talking on national television? And I'm just like, oh, man, we're this far off. Like, oh, God, I really got to break. Like, do you not. Did you just not see what happened to Jimmy Kimmel, like, what he said about him? Do you not see the. The lawsuits where, you know, with 60 Minutes? Do you not see, like, the way he go. Every media outlet and they're all, like, bowing down to him and, like, kissing, knees, buckling.
- [31:44]
A
I can't believe it. I am. I've been shocked and enraged by the cowardice.
- [31:50]
B
It's. It's the money, man. Like, they. That's all they care about. They will take that profit. They don't want even a little bit of a discomfort, a little bit of, you know, suffering for them, which would just mean, you know, maybe one less jet or something.
- [32:03]
A
Right. Exactly. Oh, I didn't get that third yacht.
- [32:06]
B
Yeah. So, like, it's not even that much of a difference, you know, in their lifestyle, but it's just. And you see it too, with like all the tech moguls and stuff. I've noticed on Tick Tock that since Trump has been in office, how much my content has been suppressed.
- [32:22]
A
Oh, mine has too.
- [32:23]
B
Yeah. The analytics, I can literally trace it to when Trump was in office. And I mean, I have the data that backs it up, but it's. And then now they're talking about, you know, his billionaire buddies that are supposed to be taking over, you know, and again, it's just another way to silence any opposition, any voices that speak out against him. And.
- [32:43]
A
Well, and the thing about having these, you know, even massive digital platforms is that all of these, the people in control of these platforms are all buddy, buddy with Trump. And so all he has to say is, I need you to shut that person's account down. They can flag us and say, you violated community standards and you're done.
- [33:00]
B
Yeah, that's it.
- [33:01]
A
Yeah. And so I've, I've been making a concentrated effort to build my email list, get people on Patreon, like, even as, like, subscribe as free members. So if I disappear one day offline, I can still reach people, I can still do something. Because we're in the stage of authoritarianism where it's silencing any dissenting opinion.
- [33:20]
B
Yeah. And we're in it. Like, we're in it.
- [33:22]
A
We're in it. We're not.
- [33:23]
B
It's not happening. It's here, it's happening in the present, right now, as we speak. It is. We're in full fledged authoritarianism.
- [33:30]
A
Yeah.
- [33:31]
B
And my fascism in real life, my.
- [33:33]
A
Favorite quote has been from Pirates of the Caribbean right now, like, just to like, summarize the moment, right when they first take Elizabeth Turner and she's like, I don't believe in ghost stories. And he's like, you best start believing in ghost stories, Ms. Turner. You're in one. Like, that is the thing that is burned into my brain right now because I'm like, we're in it, we're in it. And I mean, the fight still stays the same. But when you really started learning all this information and like, having this amazing perspective of I was in prison, I know how this system works. I know how it was used to disenfranchise me and other people. Like, how did you feel like, as you're learning this information coming from being very into maga, like, you know, into like white nation stuff. How did what was going through your mind and how did you feel as you started to learn that information?
- [34:25]
B
I mean it was liberating. Yeah, right, Getting. But I will say it was lonely too. So like two things. Learning new information and deconstructing at first was a very lonely place for me. My social media platforms, what really started to grow. I was in a marriage with a MAGA person at the time too.
- [34:41]
A
Oh, wow. So you were in it.
- [34:42]
B
In it, yeah, in it, in it. And I felt obligated because she was by my side in prison. Like, and she was, somebody had been. We've been together 20 years on and off. Like, so there was a lot of guilt and shame that came with that because she was there by my side when I was in my chaos of like drug addiction. Like she withstood a lot of stuff that she probably, you know, like felt like she didn't deserve. Right. She deserved better than that. Like, so it's very nuanced. Right. It's not always a black and white conversation. But we were also very toxic. Like it was just a toxic, unhealthy relationship. And so when I started to make this change, I was speaking out on social media with it and she was like, well, she gave me this ultimatum. Basically, I can water down my message and just keep it to prison reform and addiction and recovery or you know, like, we gotta separate and, and coming out of prison, you know, that was the other thing was that like she was the breadwinner. I was coming out of prison. Like, you can't just go get employment and housing and everything. You know, I had no credit history because I've been in prison for 10 years. So like, it's difficult trying to get back on your feet and, and start over. And it was, I was fearful like to leave because I was like, okay, I literally gotta start with nothing from nothing. And finally I just got to the point where I was like, you know what? No matter what, like, I have so much peace when I'm doing the work of deconstruction. Like it, it is like saving me, it's healing me in more ways. Like, especially with the mental health and the substance abuse side of things. Like, I had a lot of childhood trauma. My biological mother left when I was one. She lived three streets down for me my entire life. I couldn't tell you what she looked like. So there was like a lot of childhood trauma that, you know, I didn't deal with. And through the process of doing the work of, you know, deconstructing and anti racism stuff, I Started to learn a lot about myself and look inwardly. Well, then finally I made that step to say, you know what? I'm just going to get my stuff and I'm going to go. And I did. And of course, I got the hate that came with the crap. She stayed by your side. How dare you do that? It's like, how dare I be happy and find peace and really set her free? Probably the best thing for her as well. So I made that decision to do that. But then, you know, when you. When you leave maga, like, where do you go? Right?
- [37:00]
A
Yeah.
- [37:01]
B
It's like, this is all I've ever known my entire life was white Christian conservatives. Like, that was my friend group. This is my circle of influence. And now, really, the only friendships I have with people are online. You know, they're not really, like, in real life. So, like, and. And a lot of people are apprehensive, right? Like, well, did he really do the work? Did he really change? How do you go from being a white Christian nationalist to the point of joining an organization to, you know, like, is this for real?
- [37:29]
A
Yeah.
- [37:29]
B
And so that was a struggle at first, right? Because it was just like, being on this island of, like, not having anywhere to go and then. But the other side of it, that coin, was that it was the most liberating thing I ever did because I finally, you know, found peace within myself. It. It solves so many other issues for me doing that, because I got to live my own truth. You know, I'm not. I'm not seeking validation and acceptance from people anymore. I don't care, you know, what you think or what you say. Like, I, you know, I finally learned the truth and not what you told me. I had to believe for so many years.
- [38:06]
A
Well, and it also heals. There's so much. Like, what I found was it released so much hate and fear and shame that I was just. And I didn't even realize that it was hatred, but I realized I had been groomed and indoctrinated to be prejudiced against these other people, to scapegoat other people, I was so, like, shame is really the big one for me. There was so much shame in my belief system. Every little thing I did that. When I was finally able to walk away from it, because my family was very far right, like, stockpile arms against the government, that kind of stuff. And so to be able to walk away from that and just be like, oh, my God, I'm a person. Like, I'm a person and my opinions are valid, my life is Valid. I don't have to jump through all these performative perfection hoops to be like just a person. It was extremely liberating. Like lonely, like you said, because you lose your community. But it's so liberating. And also for me, curiosity is one of the most important tenets of my life. Like, I hope I never stop being curious and getting into this new space. I was able to learn things and ask questions and it was okay if I didn't know something and I could ask more questions and I could change my mind when I learned new information. Because back to your point about Biden in 94 and him coming out and saying I was wrong, I want my politicians to say I was wrong more often.
- [39:31]
B
Like, you're not gonna always get it right.
- [39:32]
A
You're not gonna always get it right. And it means that you're. You understand, you're human and it means that you grow when you get new information. I would love more of that saying, you know what? We didn't handle that right. You know what? I didn't have the right information. You know what? My, like, whatever it is, I find that to actually be so much more refreshing than people who just double down and claim their right all the time.
- [39:52]
B
Yep. And that's what I would always do is double down. And it's like there. It's for what. It's so much pride. But being able to change your mind is. Is one of the biggest tenets for the way I live now too, is that if you can present new information, you give me substance. I'm willing to learn. And I am very, very curious. I'm very open minded to, you know, new information. And, and there's a lot of freedom in that. There was something else that I was going to say now. I forgot. It just slipped my mind. But.
- [40:30]
A
Trying to find it. We're back. We were talking about Biden. We're talking about changing our mind. Education, leaving community. But yeah, it is. It's a, it's a lot. And I also.
- [40:40]
B
The shame. Yes, the shame. Right. And I think that was the biggest thing in my addiction was that there was a lot of shame of the things that you do in addiction. Right?
- [40:49]
A
Yeah.
- [40:50]
B
And. And there's a lot of vulnerability too, because when you lose everything. When I was literally homeless in the streets, right. Like I, I was couch surfing with friends or there's a couple nights that I would stay at a park, you know, like I would say, I would literally street. I would sleep in my truck at the beach and go take a shower, like in the, the beach showers, like in my board shorts, you know, like, and I remember like so many of those nights and like, the shame with it because it's like, logically, you know better, right? Like, how did I get to this place in my life where this is happening? I had plenty of reasoning, you know, plenty of sense, but I had no emotional regulation and I didn't know. No emotional intelligence, right? And I think that's the biggest thing with change comes, like, you know, with that emotional intelligence and developing compassion and empathy because I didn't even have that for myself, so how could I have that for anybody else? Because I was so hard on myself and I would beat myself up over and over and over again and I had to check myself now because I'll do that. Like where I find myself getting prideful or I get in my feelings about things and then. And I know it's wrong, like, I know, like, but it's physical, right? It's a visceral feeling. And it's like, why do I feel this way when I know I shouldn't feel this way, right? Like, I know that it's not productive, like it's not going to do anything good, but. And I do it. And then if I lash out with it too, like, then all the shame and the guilt that comes with that. And. And I remember being in addiction and being so vulnerable and being homeless and they tell you, well, you got to find Jesus or you got to do the 12 steps and this is the only way. And if you don't do it our way, basically you're going to be homeless even longer. So now you have to kind of adopt that narrative, you know, and assimilate into what they want you to do. Because it's basically their way or the highway. You know, if you go into a halfway house or you go into a 12 step group, or you go into a church, they want you to adopt their narrative and their culture and their way of life. And if you don't, then they're not.
- [42:46]
A
Going to help you.
- [42:47]
B
Yeah, you're not getting the benefits of food, housing, you know, your basic physical needs met. So that was a big struggle for a long time, you know, is that I'm having to do what everybody else wants me to do or believe. What they want me to believe is because if not, I'm going to be homeless or not have anything. So. And now you couple it with the fact that I'm a convicted felon. And now it's that much harder because they control the jobs, they control the Work, and. And it's something even out in my community, like, where being. It's hard to find, you know, meaningful work. So I had to kind of do things for myself and try to make a way. So that was something that was. That was really difficult dealing with and still can be at times, is because there was shame in that. You know, not accepting or having to adopt their narrative and not being able to live to be truly who I wanted to be. So when I finally said, you know what, whatever happens, let the chips fall where they may. Like, it's still hard financially at times, but it's so much more freeing because I don't have that shame. Like, I'm not gonna hide behind this idea that I have to accept Jesus and his forgiveness in order for me to. To not carry guilt from my past, you know, like, that's what you know. And I see a lot of people who do that, who are Christians, who I know were drug addicts, who I know were in the streets, who did things that they thought were shameful and that they've been so conditioned to believe that the only way they can forgive themselves for that is by accepting Jesus. They have to cover themselves in the blood of Jesus. Otherwise there's no freedom, and there's no. You have to carry that shape, that shame and that. It's like, no, you don't like.
- [44:24]
A
And it's like, it's always so conditional. Like, the first thing is that, like, shame attacks who you are as a person. And I find that shame in Christian nationalism is like, it's the same cyclical cycle to keep you stuck in the movement. Right? Because when you look at, like, if we just take Jesus as just his teachings at face value, it's all about forgiveness and acceptance and, like, taking people where they are and meeting people where they are. But you, when it's brought into Christian nationalism, it's. You're faulty, you're broken, you're worthless. Unless you buy into this particular version of God in the Bible, because only my version is right, which is insane, because we're talking about a text that, like, the earliest manuscripts, like, it was starting to be written in the 9th century BCE and you're saying that you're the only person who fully understands it. Like, it's. It is so much arrogance and abuse. It's so much arrogance. Like, how dare you, like, say it is abusive? And it's. It's meant to foster a sense of power. And, like, you're not allowed to question me because only my opinion of God is right and it's actually insane. Like, for me growing up and, like, I graduated from Liberty University. I studied, like, I was required to take theology courses, which I took in Israel with Liberty. And it was the studying of church history and, like, understanding, like, the scriptures more that made me start to walk away. I was like, wait a minute. You can't tell me that all these different men over 1500 years wrote with one single goal in mind. You know, you can't tell me that. Like, but again, when you're in that system, it's. You either believe this checkpoint list and pray this exact salvation prayer, otherwise you don't count and we will not help you. And the. The hurdles that Christian nationalists will go through to not help other people is pretty amazing. Like, do anything but help people.
- [46:19]
B
Yeah, that was the hardest thing because it is mostly all Christian nationalists where I live. Like, there's no real, you know, idea of being like Christ. Like, with. According to his teachings.
- [46:31]
A
Yeah.
- [46:31]
B
Like I said, with the grace and the mercy and unconditional love and just the willingness to. To help those who are ostracized and stigmatized by, you know, society standards. And, you know, he literally went after, like, the religious leaders of his day. So, like, yeah, these people, that's who Jesus would be going, you know, like, the. The ones that are gatekeeping, you know, the faith are the ones that Jesus would have called the brood of vipers. So, like. But I get it now, but it was just so hard because it was. It was so abusive. I just read something in Japan where they literally are making it a crime. So, like, if you indoctrinate your kids to. You force them into a religion or.
- [47:09]
A
That they don't want to be in. Yep.
- [47:11]
B
Yeah. That they don't want to be in. You force them as kids, you can be charged with, like, child abuse and.
- [47:18]
A
Like, wow, what a concept.
- [47:20]
B
What a concept. Because growing up in my community, I realized how much it is, you know, I'm dating someone now who's the same thing. Like, she experienced a lot of the same thing, and it's just like, okay, like, and. But she got it a long time ago.
- [47:37]
A
Yeah.
- [47:39]
B
So she. She broke out of that, you know, years ago. Whereas for me, it, you know, because I needed the help, you know.
- [47:48]
A
Yeah. So badly that it puts you in a desperate situation.
- [47:52]
B
It puts you in a desperate situation.
- [47:54]
A
And I think that's part of the political motivation for, like, the far right to keep people struggling and poor. Because desperate people fill church pews.
- [48:04]
B
Yep. Like, and they'll fill the MAGA voters box. Too.
- [48:07]
A
And they're so easy to manipulate.
- [48:09]
B
Yeah. They won't question it. So that's the other thing that I talk about with maga. You know, it's easy to get Christian nationalists to have this blind faith into maga and don't even question. Trump says he can go in the middle of midtown Manhattan and shoot somebody in the face and they'd still support him. And they would, they wouldn't question him. You know, like, oh, well, if he did it, then there must have been a reason why he did it. It was justified, you know, like. And it's the same thing with their faith. Like, just because the Bible said so. Well, because Trump said so. You know, like, it's just that the.
- [48:41]
A
Parallels there, it's pretty, pretty painful and I'm interested. So, like, with your knowledge of like, not just experiencing prison, but like the work you did in anti racism and the incarceration system, like, how do you see that changing and expanding with how we're handling immigration right now? Because I was just at an immigration hearing in D.C. and it is staggering the amount of people that we're putting in detainment, detention, prisons, the amount of prisons and camps we're building. What are you seeing from, like, your very unique perspective regarding that?
- [49:16]
B
I believe it's very much the same of what we saw with Black people for 400 years. First of all, it vilifies and demonizes and hyper criminalizes an entire demographic of people. Right. Just the same way we saw black people on, you know, Fox News and on the news stations every night. And it kind of puts in your head that they're inherently dangerous and criminal and violent.
- [49:37]
A
And that's the point of it. That's the point of the rhetoric.
- [49:39]
B
Same thing with immigrants. You know, that's why you say they're thugs and murderers and criminals and rapists. And you use that very harsh and extreme language. And, and, and again, it's about your white women. Your white women are in danger. I just got an Andrew Tate clip of when he was on. I came over with a guy's name, Pierce. Whatever. The guy, Pierce.
- [50:01]
A
What is his last name?
- [50:02]
B
I don't remember his last name.
- [50:04]
A
Eager help. Pierce something, huh? Here's Morgan.
- [50:08]
B
Is it Morgan?
- [50:09]
A
Is it Morgan?
- [50:09]
B
That was Morgan.
- [50:10]
A
I think so, but we're with that.
- [50:13]
B
Yeah. Andrew Tate was basically saying, you know, like, I fear my two daughters. They walk down the street and they'll just be raped.
- [50:19]
A
You know, like coming from someone who sex trafficked women. Yeah, I bet you're scared, you dick.
- [50:24]
B
Yeah. And he's like, and I'm half black. You know, he's trying to justify it by saying that, you know, but it's just like, you know, the hyper criminalization of. And this, this existential threat that, you know, white people fear that these immigrants are coming in and they're going to take their women and rob and rape their women. It's the same thing they said about black people, you know, after the abolishment of slavery, like where they had commercials, like where you had to like hide your white women walking down the trail because there's going to be a black person hiding in the bushes that's going to rape your woman. And it's the same thing that they feel about immigrants. So that's why I say it all goes back to the politics of white supremacy. Whether they consciously can realize that or not, even the people who unwittingly support it, like, that's what they're supporting. And the prison industrial complex is very profitable for a select few. But you know what else it does is that detention centers and prisons and jails, they prop up the economy. Right. So if you, yeah, most of these prisons and jails and detention centers are typically built in rural communities. Right. Anytime you see new ones pop up, they're pop up in rural communities. Well, these rural communities are predominantly white.
- [51:36]
A
Yeah.
- [51:37]
B
Right. And they're low educated, low skilled workers working in prisons. Now you're providing a job. Well, guess what? Now they're going to shop at your local Piggly Wiggly, your local Walmart, your local, you know, whatever, your grocery store, Kroger. And, and then on top of that, they're going to rent or they're going to buy houses. So it keeps that economy circulating. Now you're providing jobs. I've, I've been in prisons like in, in North Florida where there's, you know, there's hundreds of prisons in, in Florida. The vast majority of them are in rural communities. And I've been in prisons where you've got like three families that work the entire prison.
- [52:14]
A
Wow.
- [52:15]
B
The sergeant, the officer, the nursing, the, the food service workers. Literally every job, the maintenance, you know, the entire, you know, it's just a handful of families, but you're providing jobs to that community. So it's almost like a source of welfare. Right. Like when they say black people are getting welfare and government assistance, well, white people are getting it in the form of, of jobs by just building more prisons. Now if you got a whole nother demographic of people to target with immigrants now, more money, more money. And then Also, that's more judges, that's more prosecutors, more defense attorneys, more people that, the bailiffs that work in the jails or in the, in the courts, the people, the transcribers, the people that, you know, do literally every job within the court system, the clerk of court. So now you're just.
- [53:07]
A
Bail bomb bloats the whole system.
- [53:10]
B
It just props up the economy in so many ways while also demonizing and vilifying an entire demographic of people. Because now you're basically saying that immigrants are inherently criminal and evil. It was never about doing it the quote, unquote right way.
- [53:25]
A
Yeah.
- [53:26]
B
Saw Trump remove temporary protection status of like 500,000 immigrants.
- [53:31]
A
Well, and they're arresting people at their immigration hearings. Like you, you no longer can make this argument of, oh, we're just, you know, you know, being tough on crime or we're just going after, like you're going after people who are there because the judge told them to keep their green card. They needed to come to this appointment and you're abducting them. It's been, it's been unbelievable. I mean, and now like several US Citizens have been snatched up. Why? Because they look Hispanic or they look Latina or they speak Spanish. It's, it's absolutely insane and completely morally bankrupt. And the fact that Pam Bondi used to be a lobbyist for the Geo.
- [54:07]
B
Group, like, well, that's the other thing I was about to say is that if you look at the private contractors of, especially with the immigrants, because it is the private contractors that are getting a lot of these deals. Now, when you look at state and federal prisons, you know, only I think 8% of the actual prison, of the prisons that are federal or state are private prisons. So 92% of them are, you know, government ran. Okay. You know, the state, but even within that, there's a lot of private companies within it. So like I said, it still props up the economy in that local area. So even if it's a state ran prison or a federal ran prison, it's not a privately owned prison or privately ran prison. It's still going to prop up the economy. It's also going to have private entities within it. So whoever runs the healthcare is going to be a private company. Whoever runs the food service is going to be a private company. Whoever runs the canteen, the Aramark, you know, the key fee, these different groups, these different companies, they're all going to be private. And there's big money and big contracts in that as well. But with the detention centers, you see the go and the core civic or whatever, I can't remember what. There's a couple, there's like two or three that are in competition with each other, with the private prisons, and they get the contracts too, with the states and the federal prisons, too. But there's a big, big, big market with them. And you're talking, you know, billions of dollars with immigrants. So in a couple billionaire buddies, like you said, Pam Bondi used to lobby and I'm sure Trump, you know, like. And they just. One hand washes the other. And it's more money.
- [55:47]
A
Yep. And it's more of a cycle. And it's. I mean, and to me, it's amazing that she was able to even get confirmed with a glaring conflict of interest like that. But it really is. It's become. It's become every, you know, justice, free speech, elections, whatever it is, has really become down to the highest bidder. And one of the other things I think about you mentioned, it's kind of this returning rhetoric of protect your white women, protect your white women, which is the same rhetoric they used during the Cold War. It was like this imagery of, you know, the big, strong, all American soldier. And you, you know, the women need to be protected from the red Scare, from the communist enemy, from socialists. And what do you think? How do we start to have the conversation with Christian nationalist men? Because if you look at the different chapters of how fundamentalism has grown in fascism, it's always at these critical points where masculinity is being redefined. So, like, coming into the 20th century, men were going from working these big manual agricultural, you know, labor jobs into working more like punch a clock type work. So there came this move, this way of, how do I demonstrate my masculinity? And then you look at, like, civil rights when women are now working out of the home, they're going to school, there's this conflict again. How do you start to open the door with like, especially white men about, hey, like, you can be a man without having to buy into all of this dogma? Because I think that's the hardest thing to reach.
- [57:20]
B
The education. Right. Yeah, look who's controlling those narratives and airwaves. Your Joe Rogans, your Charlie Kirks, your Andrew Tates, your Tucker Carlson's, and. And half of these people aren't even, you know, it's just mind blowing because, you know, they preach this whole alpha male concept of. That's one of the things I get the most from MAGA now is that, oh, you're this beta ch, sheep, soy boy.
- [57:46]
A
And Meanwhile, they're the ones that are, like, falling in line with whatever their group, questioning anything.
- [57:52]
B
And then on top of that, like, what's funny is that, like, I was an athlete. Like, I'm 6, 3, 2, 30. Like, so if you really wanted to take it to that level of what you define as masculinity, like, like, come at me, bro. Yeah, you're not even on the same playing field as me. So I laugh at that, first of all. But then secondly, like, it's like, it's. Your definition is so skewed of like. And it's. It's their own insecurity, right? It comes down to fear. Proper education. I think the. One of the biggest things for men and what we need to be teaching young men is emotional intelligence, right? Like, the vast majority. Like, if I would have been taught that at a younger age, I would have been way ahead of the game, you know, but, like, I fell so far behind because I was naturally intelligent. I was a very good student. You know, I sought, like, I wanted to be a good person, right? I sought truth. I just was taught, you know, a very, you know, whitewashed and very toxic masculinity. Every bit of that, you know, I was taught all of that. That's why I was conditioned to believe. But had I had the emotional intelligence. And they look at that as weakness now, right?
- [58:59]
A
Toxic empathy.
- [59:00]
B
Kids about their feelings. Like, how dare you teach these young boys about their feelings? Because we didn't communicate that stuff as. As a kid. You know, my dad never said, I love you growing up. And I didn't even grow up in a family. Like, most of my, like, dad's side, they were like bankers and corporate people anyways. But yeah, you know, my dad was in law school when he had me, and he dropped out and ended up working, like, at a grocery store and in the grocery business. So, like, we were fairly poor and kind of the outcast compared to the rest of the, you know, the family and stuff. But, like, we didn't. He didn't even do, like, a lot of stuff with your hands. But I grew up around it, you know. Yeah, but it's just defining, like, redefining. Like, what. First of all, like, what does it mean to, you know, to be a man? Like, what they. These people get so hung up on, like, you know, the ideas of what masculinity is. So I think it is. I think it comes down to emotional intelligence, you know, controlling the narrative. Look at who's controlling the narrative right now. The influencers. And that's One of the biggest problems, I feel is that you look like in Florida, Ron Desantis. Like, he is. Look at it as being like your. Your man. Like your manly. Your man's man. He's wearing high heel boots.
- [60:13]
A
Like, like, if we're gonna get real specific about your paradigm, not that it.
- [60:18]
B
Matters, but like, this is. But according to you. According to you. Yeah, according to. Here we have the limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their.
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Car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.
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Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
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A
Uh, limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera.
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B
They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.
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Liberty Mutual Insurance company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts.
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C
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- [61:39]
A
Because they again, it's these narrow definitions, like, narrow definition of white supremacy, narrow definition of sexual assault. Narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow definition of what a woman can or can't be when. And it's all this fear, because it's this fear of, like, what if I let go of control? What if I don't fit in this list? Then who am I? And the reality is, so, like, you can see me. I've got, like, long nails. I've got a nose ring. I've got tattoos. So I get it. Like, people are like, what are you, trans? Oh, nose ring. I can't take anything seriously. And I'm convinced that the reason that it makes them so uncomfortable is because someone else's definition of me doesn't matter. If I know who I am, that's it. And they know that. And so when they See, someone who knows exactly who they are and doesn't care that they don't fit on the list. It makes them really uncomfortable.
- [62:30]
B
Yeah.
- [62:31]
A
And it makes them afraid.
- [62:32]
B
Have identity issues. Right. People have real insecurity, real insecurities and real identity issues. And I think that was a big problem for me a long time is I had identity issues. Like, who am I?
- [62:41]
A
Like, yeah, I don't know who I.
- [62:42]
B
Am because I was conditioned to believe that all these things that I was supposed to be and put in this box and, and I was so much more and then also so much less at the same time. Like, it really, I just, for once, I don't care what anybody says. And, and people that are close to me now, they say that even like when I post content, like I'll take one take and just post it. Like that's what I do, redo it a million times. Like I don't care what I look like, like I don't care what people think. I just post what's really on my mind and, and how I feel. I try to be my authentic self regardless of what people think. Because I, when I sought the validation for so long and sought, you know, the people pleasing and what I used to tell people, like when I first came into Christianity was that like that Jesus supposedly filled that void. Right. Like he was the one that gave my identity was in him. But even that was just another, you.
- [63:39]
A
Know, it was just another list, another checklist.
- [63:41]
B
Yeah, I was just putting on, you know, like, because it's not really how I felt. Right. And finally, because even when I get down to like the God questionnaire, I tell people, like, if I'm completely honest, we just don't know. Right.
- [63:52]
A
Like, you can't prove it either way.
- [63:55]
B
Yeah, I just don't know. Like, I mean, I'm open to the conversations. I, I love the idea of a lot of the teachings that, you know, you hear of Jesus, I just think he was enlightened, just like Gandhi or Buddha or, you know, Muhammad, you know, they just tried to reach this point of total enlightenment, you know, of consciousness, what it means to be woke. Right.
- [64:15]
A
Yeah. What it means to be like a real person. And I really believe one of the things I've come to believe, especially about the New Testament, is that like when he's talking about the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of hell, it's like it's what we create right now. Like your actions, he said, you reap what you sow. We either build the kingdom of heaven now or we build the Kingdom of hell right now is like, my belief on that.
- [64:36]
B
Because Eckhart Tolle talks a lot about that stuff too. Like. Oh, I love. Yeah. Like, I. This esoteric mystic. Like, I kind of just. That's what I believe. It's what we create right now. Like, and we're going to be in our own heaven, our own hell. Like, we have that power. Like, we're all creative. Right. Like, what are you creating? Like, what are we creating on a daily basis for our lives? Because that's what, you know, we each have 24 hours to create whatever we want and, and to do what we want.
- [65:02]
A
And you're going to shift the needle one direct or the other.
- [65:05]
B
Yeah. And I'm not going to be doing it for other people now or try to fit into your mold of what it means to be a man or what it means to be, you know, a Christian or what it means to be a conservative or what it means to be a Democrat or any of those. Like, I, I don't want to fit your labels or boxes anymore. I just want to be me to the best of my ability.
- [65:24]
A
Honest, curious person. What a concept person.
- [65:27]
B
Yeah. Like, it's, it's, it's really a lot simpler than what we make it. But I do find the irony in most MAGA men. Everything that they project is typically a confession. Right. They, they fear. I, I posted a video the other day with my shirt off and I was like, thirst trapped into consciousness or something. Just funny. Right? And so many MAGA men came and said, yeah, you're gonna attract all these gay people and you're gonna. These trans people. And it's just like, who cares if I do? Like, so be it.
- [66:01]
A
It's not a bad thing to be a 10 on both teams.
- [66:04]
B
Yeah. Like, to be attracted, that just means you're attractive to multiple people. Who cares? Right? Like, but to, to, to hear like, the insecurity and like, the fear, like, what are you fixations and the fixation on it. Yeah. Like, that's the first thing that came to your mind with that is like, why are you so fearful and fixated on it? And, and you know, trans people make up what, 1% of the population, yet they literally control.
- [66:30]
A
Like, yes, they. I was like, I had that conversation the other day with someone. I'm like, how does this one tiny group of people, like, become the source of all of your problems? Like, do you know a trans person? No. No, you don't? Like, just.
- [66:45]
B
Yeah. And I, I didn't even really know any trans people until my Platform. And now, like, some of, like, my really good friends that I talk to online pretty regularly, they're trans. And, like, I have no. No issue with that.
- [66:56]
A
What's another human being? Look at this.
- [66:58]
B
Another human being. Like, very insightful. Very. You know, I don't even look at, like, their sexual identity or preference or orientation or any of that. Like, just not issue.
- [67:08]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [67:09]
B
I remember, actually, when I. Go ahead, when I first came out of prison, right? I was curious, and I was wanting to learn, and I was deconstructing, but I still didn't understand, like, pronouns. I told you that, right?
- [67:20]
A
Yeah.
- [67:21]
B
You know, I started hearing people say non binary and cisgender, and I'm like, what does all this stuff mean? So I have a friend of mine, and her name's J.D. fuller, and she has a thing called Changing the Narrative. And she had me on her show, and we ended up becoming friends. We met on. Online. Well, her wife is from my community, from my town, and, like, she's from, like, Los Angeles in the first place, and she's a black woman, and she definitely doesn't fit the mode of, like, the stereotype of the person in my community, right? And so she was like, well, I'm coming to town to visit my wife. Let's go to lunch. And I was like, good. I want to learn about pronouns. I need you to come teach me. So we go. There's a place, like, on the water where I live. And it was, like, during. It was, like, during. On the weekend, during the day. And they had, like, all these boats with all these Desantis and Trump flags everywhere. Jesus. Nothing but drunk white rednecks. And in me and her, we walk into this restaurant and the books, just because she. The way she was dressed and just her look and, like, the looks. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. She was like, I don't even care. Like, she's used to it. Like, I can handle my.
- [68:33]
A
Like, I got it.
- [68:33]
B
It's like. Like, to hell with these people, right? Like, Like. And again, somebody who's completely comfortable in their skin does not care about the validation or the acceptance or what people think. And, like, they better hope they don't get out of line. They better know their place. And. And that's the way she carried herself. But. And I learned about pronouns that day, but it was, you know, just the experience. I remember, like, being one of the first times I was out of prison and just experiencing that and seeing that and being so concerned for, like, how she was feeling or her well being, but realizing that, you know, like, she didn't care because she was comfortable in her own skin. But like, you know, a lot of times I realized that, you know, there's place like black people do not feel safe in a lot of, you know, white spaces. There's a reason for that, you know, and, and a lot of white people don't understand that, like, because, well, it's this perception.
- [69:30]
A
The way that I compare it to people is, you know, you meet men who are really trying to understand like the, the female experience and they're trying to be advocates and they're trying to be allies. And what you have to communicate with them is like, I'm so glad that you don't know what it's like to never feel safe in a dark parking lot. But I need you to understand that I've never felt safe in a dark parking lot. And it's switching and white people have to step into that same space of, oh, just because I feel safe here does not mean that this is safe for everybody else. And like, my experience doesn't dictate the reality of the whole world.
- [70:13]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's another thing you see with most MAGA people is that they cannot validate other people's experience. Like, yeah, I have somebody that I argue with, debate with on a daily basis on Facebook and I just kind of stopped because I just see that he does not have any desire to be intellectually honest.
- [70:30]
A
Yep.
- [70:31]
B
He's ignorant, poorly educated, but has this like pseudo intellect. Right. And, but he, he never, he's always telling other people what their experience is. Like, literally. You could tell him. I could tell him, oh, you know, I was a white nationalist in prison and. Oh, you weren't a white nationalist? Oh, you just did that for protection? Or you just, you know, or you could tell. I, I told him, you know, I went to this fashion show in New York City with actively black, and they did this whole thing. It was a really cool experience. They did this whole thing on like, black history. They had a lot of icons there.
- [71:09]
A
Oh, that's amazing.
- [71:10]
B
Martin Luther King, Dr. Martin Luther King's daughter was there. You know, some of Bob Marley's family was there. Ben Hate, who created the Juneteenth flag, was there. Like, it was just a really cool experience. And again, he tried to tell me about what their experience is like and why that they did some of the things they did in the protest and, and fighting for civil liberties and stuff like that. And I'm like, why don't you just listen to what people say and what their is invalidate their experience and say, okay, that's what it is. Like when black people tell you they're experiencing racism, then believe them rather than saying, oh, that's not racist or you know, quit being so sensitive or quit being the victim.
- [71:56]
A
And it's just only my reality is real.
- [71:59]
B
Yeah. And he's one of those people. And I realized when I looked back at my life, I was the same way. Like I was. I would always invalidate what other people's experiences and tell them what their experience either was or what it should have been, you know?
- [72:10]
A
Yep.
- [72:12]
B
Yeah. Like you need to be like Candace Owens. Like I was telling you, like this is what you should be like. And it's just like.
- [72:19]
A
And I even look back and I think about. And my dad was much more like a lot of people I grew up around were very overtly racist. My dad was not. But there was. He had like definite ingrained covert racism that I don't think he even realized. Cause I look back now at some of the things he would say and I'm like, oh my gosh, like that is so not okay. But I don't like to him it was just like telling you he's going to get a sandwich. Like it just doesn't. He was so stuck in his own paradigm that only his experiences were real, that it was this storyline that he had created. And it is. They get stuck in their own reality, that only their reality can exist. Only their. And also like losing nuance of two things can be true at the same time. Like there can be good police officers, people who try to do their job the best they can. And we can have a systemic problem of police brutality in black communities. Both of those things can be true.
- [73:18]
B
They can coexist. Yeah. They're not mutually exclusive.
- [73:20]
A
Yeah.
- [73:21]
B
And I say that all the time, is that people don't understand that two things can be true at once and people can overall try to be good people and still have that covert racism. And I'm going to try to be well intentioned. Like I don't believe any person is all good or all bad. But I do believe that like we should definitely be willing to at least take a look at, you know, ourselves. Ourselves. Yeah. And I look back to it, you know, the racism in our community. And it's so funny when I hear some of the MAGA people tell me now that they're not racist and I'm like, bro, I grew up with you. Like I remember what some of the Things. I remember some of the things that were said that, you know, we tolerated or that we engaged in or. And then even now, I have. I have a friend who is going, he got divorced, whatever, but his wife's not dating a black guy. And it's an issue. Right? And that's an issue in my community. Like, because white people will say, I would never date a girl that dates a black guy. How dare you do that? You know, or they'll say this. It doesn't make me racist. It's just my preference.
- [74:23]
A
Yep.
- [74:24]
B
You know, she dates a black guy, then that's just. That's my preference. Like, you know, like, it doesn't make me. I like black people. I have no problem with them. It's just my preference to not date. Like, no, that makes you racist.
- [74:35]
A
So he's raging little dick energy, too. Like, yeah, like my guy.
- [74:41]
B
But we were conditioned to believe that, like, yeah, like, that somehow, like, that taints white women if they have, you know, that how dare they get intimate or date a black guy or something? And, yeah, and they truly believe.
- [74:52]
A
Again, those narrow definitions.
- [74:54]
B
Like, and I see that now. Like, I see that even with, you know, they don't want their kids to get caught up in that. Like, you know, or worried about what other people will think if their daughter dates a black guy or something. You know, like, what's the community going to say about us or her? You know? And it's just like, a couple months.
- [75:12]
A
Ago, I did an interview with Jane Elliott, and I was talking to her about a lot of this. She's amazing. And I told her, I was like, I still will come up on things or ideas or phrases that I never realized the connotation of. And she's like, oh. She was like, you were raised in America. She's like, it would be shocking if you didn't carry some covert racism. She's like, that's the point. That's the intention of the system is to create these paradigms to put people in the boxes they want you to be in. And, man, she's right. Like, especially when you grow up in these rural white areas, it's almost impossible to come out.
- [75:46]
B
You're going to be racist. It's a natural byproduct of growing up in America. I say that to people all the time. Like, and I say, if you're a white and you grew up in the United States of America, you have some level of racism in you, whether you admit that or not, it's just a natural byproduct of being exposed to our institutions, our systems, our education, our way of life. It's just inevitable. Now it's up to you to do the work to deconstruct and become less racist and ultimately not racist. But you're still going to have some level of COVID hidden something.
- [76:15]
A
Bias.
- [76:16]
B
Yeah, bias. Implicit biases that, that you're just unaware of because we've been so programmed. And it is such learned behavior, too. I. I have another friend who's a firefighter. Was a firefighter, retired from being a firefighter when we were kids. You know, he had his daughter, and she was like 3 years old, and we used to always take her to the store to get, you know, toys or whatever. If we. Or if we went to Walmart to go grocery stop, we'd let her go down the toy aisle and get a toy. And we're pushing her down the aisle and there's these Cabbage patch dolls. And she says, daddy, Daddy, I want the chocolate baby. He literally leans in and says, you're not getting the N word, baby. And. And she. And then pushes the car and she starts screaming at the top of her lungs, I want the N word, baby.
- [77:06]
A
Oh, my God.
- [77:06]
B
Oh, my God, there's people in the store and everything. And I remember this so vividly. And this is just the truth. This isn't. This is a real life experience that happened. And. And I remember being so embarrassed. Right. But then, you know, trying to laugh it off like it wasn't a big deal. But when I look at the work that I've done now, and you're just.
- [77:27]
A
Like, oh, my God, this is a.
- [77:28]
B
Story that vividly sticks out to me. And it lets me realize, like, how much this stuff is learned and it's passed down from generation to generation to generation, you know, because he said it to her so casually. It's a firefighter, you know, and she.
- [77:43]
A
She doesn't know any better.
- [77:45]
B
Yeah. And then she just did what daddy taught her. You know, she just said the word that he said. And, you know, if she's not taught differently, she will go and espouse the same beliefs and then pass it on to her kids. And. And that's just. That's how generationally it gets passed down from family to family. And. And that's just being real. And if most white people admitted the truth, they have stories like that.
- [78:10]
A
They know that we all do.
- [78:11]
B
We all know. And like.
- [78:12]
A
And kids are such a testament that, like, all of this prejudice about race and gender and sex and sexual. None of it matters. It's all taught. It's all impressed upon because a little kid might have a question like, oh, why do you have two dads? Oh, that's cool. And then they're done. They're done with it. They move on. You're just another little person like me. They don't have these inherent prejudices. We give it to them. And that is heartbreaking. Wayfair's big sale is returning. Get ready for way day. For four days only, score up to 80% off all things home with free shipping on everything from October 26th through 29th. Score Wayfair's best deals, like up to 80 off area rugs, up to 60 off mattresses, up to 60 off bedroom furniture, and more exclusive doorbuster deals. So mark your calendar and shop Wayday starting October 26th at Wayfair.com Wayfair Every style, every home.
- [79:10]
B
It is. It is. It's sad. Even now, the girl that I'm dating, she has a daughter, and we took her to the same thing to get a doll at the store, and hands down, she grabbed the. The. The black baby. We didn't say anything about it. Nothing. But she. Not. It didn't even cross her mind, Right. Yeah.
- [79:30]
A
It's like, okay, that's the one you want.
- [79:31]
B
Nothing. That's the one she wanted. Okay, so be it. Life goes on. Right. But then we. When she gets home and, you know, other people see the black baby, they can't help but wonder, what did Danny coach her into getting that? Because they know that form is the way that it is. Like, no, she did that 100 on her own. Like, this was not even an issue whatsoever. But. But it's cool. Just kind of seeing too, like, how things play out and knowing that that's the impact that I had, that it makes people think about, like, well, wait, what's the influence that he's having now? Yeah. But I will say, like, the people, like, in my immediate circle of influence, they all get it. Like, some are more scared of being vocal.
- [80:21]
A
Yeah.
- [80:22]
B
You know, or afraid of the consequence. I have a friend now that I've been educating a lot, and he's the one that doesn't like the idea of white women dating black guys. And he's come a long ways, but he's still got a long ways to go. Yeah. And I mean, this is all I'm around. This is people I know my entire life. And. And I'm constantly just educating, educated, educating, and. And he's come a long ways, but he. He. He's starting to consciously think about things, but he's coming to ask me questions as well. Like, so he's, he's curious, he's starting to get curious with, with these, you know, new questions and stuff. But one of the things that he said was that he was afraid to be anti Trump in our community because he was afraid of the financial backlash with the business and stuff.
- [81:12]
A
Yeah. And that's real because that's exactly what will happen. That's not an unfounded fear.
- [81:18]
B
Yeah. And I felt, I've, I've experienced that myself, you know where, because my platform has gotten so big now and I'm so anti Trump and I live in a MAGA community that people do they naturally. And I was working in sales before, so you think somebody's going to come buy a product for me? That's, you know, like that's the same thing with him. He was in sales. You think somebody's going to buy the product from him knowing that, you know, Joe Blow down the street sells the same product, but he's a Trump supporter. So now if he speaks out against Trump, then you're going to be blackballed and, you know, excommunicated from the community.
- [81:50]
A
And that's how they keep us stuck.
- [81:52]
B
Yeah. And that's a real fear. And that's what I said. Like, you've got to be so willing to give it all up. And you got to be willing. You're gonna, you're talking about like when it comes to privilege, you got to be willing to give up your privilege, your position, your power, your pocketbooks. Like, and most people aren't, aren't willing to go to that length.
- [82:11]
A
You know, especially recently, like, you know, the rhetoric has gotten more violent. People are getting doxed, people are getting, you know, calling their bosses and their HR to get them fired. Like it's a very real, like if you're making a decision to step into this space in, in whatever capacity, whether it's just talking to your circle or doing it online, like there's a lot of risk.
- [82:35]
B
I saw that Wisconsin teacher that got suspended for saying calling Charlie Kirk a racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic person.
- [82:46]
A
Yeah. Literally, like just, that's just the truth.
- [82:49]
B
Speaking the truth about who he is and got suspended and I think was losing the job, like ultimately losing the job.
- [82:57]
A
And I've had several left leaning creators that I follow have all have gotten doxxed fired like all of these things and it's. But what I will say is the overwhelming majority of them are like, you guys just freed up so much more Time for me to be even more of an activist. So what's in the future for you? Like, what are your goals? What do you want to keep doing? What's your hope for the future?
- [83:19]
B
I think eventually I'd like to run for something. I'm. I'm finishing up my bachelor's degree now, so I had my AA degree before I signed to play baseball. So I'm back in school now. Criminal justice, which. The irony in that, because we were talking about the Constitution and they were talking about undocumented immigrants and due process and trying to tell me that due process was only for American citizens.
- [83:41]
A
Like, that's not how that works.
- [83:42]
B
That's not what the Constitution says. Like, no person shall be denied. And it doesn't say no American or no immigrant citizen.
- [83:50]
A
Because they use the word citizen when that's what they mean.
- [83:53]
B
Yeah. So. But then they tried to say that there was other works that they point to, like, when the Constitution's not clear on it. And I was like, well, that's pretty clear to me. You know.
- [84:06]
A
It'S pretty clear. You just don't like what it says.
- [84:08]
B
Yeah. So I. I would like to probably ultimately go to law school, but because I want to keep fighting within the system, the criminal justice system, and then educating people. So, like, I do some public speaking now where I go around and just kind of speak on my experience and share, like, what it was like being MAGA and how I deconstructed and got to the place that I am now. And so I do. I'm passionate about that because then I can kind of mix into, like, some of the substance abuse and mental health issues as well, which is, you know, a big issue in this country.
- [84:46]
A
It's all part of the environment. We've created part of that big circle.
- [84:50]
B
When people say, you know, why is everything got to be about politics? Well, technically, it is, you know, literally everything that you're passionate about, whether it's mental health, substance abuse, criminal justice reform. Like, politics is the channel to get it done. Like, whether everything is political, like, whether you want to admit it or not, it really is. So getting people to see that, because, you know, that can be a touchy subject, especially when you're speaking. But I don't. I don't hold back.
- [85:17]
A
Like, oh, I know. Oh, I know. I've. I've seen it.
- [85:22]
B
I mean, you, too. Like, and I see that. Like, I appreciate the people who do the work that don't hold back or try to water it down or, like, you know, play both sides or the Respectability, politics. Because, like, you should not be afraid to tell the truth. Like, call it what it is.
- [85:37]
A
Like, yeah, be honest about it. That's my biggest thing is, like, you don't have to, like, you know, I'm not gonna do a tit for tat in the sense of, like, I'm not gonna come out. I'm not gonna be ugly, and I'm not gonna be cruel, but holy am I gonna come out fireblazing with facts, and I'm not gonna waver on it.
- [85:53]
B
Yeah, that's the same way. Like, I don't want to resort to, like, trying to belittle or name calling or, you know. You know, like, doing that.
- [85:59]
A
I want to sometimes, but.
- [86:02]
B
Yeah. But I'm not going to. To back down. And then I do try. I think, you know, changing the narrative is very important and also sometimes changing the approach to the conversation. If I feel somebody's willing, you know, to be intellectually honest and, like, receive, like, truth, to try to learn. It's hard to. To kind of discern, like, who is and who isn't, but Because I think that could be important is. Is changing that approach because I don't want to be. Always be that person that's like.
- [86:32]
A
Yeah, you have to, like, read the room. And there are. There are certain people that, like, they're. It's like you're the person you were talking to on Facebook, where you just can tell, like, you have no interest in learning or growing or actually having a conversation. You're talking at me. And then there are those people that come at you with a question, but they'll have the dialogue. And I think that's the big pivot is, are you willing to actually have the conversation or not?
- [86:53]
B
No.
- [86:53]
A
Yeah, because.
- [86:54]
B
And I look at the, you know, people who are effective, you know, somebody I like to. That is kind of in the space, kind of what, you know, you're going as well. But as a politician. Is that James Talarico is that.
- [87:04]
A
He said, I love James Talarico.
- [87:07]
B
Like, I just think, like, the way he articulates in his emotional intelligence and his demeanor, like, in the way he. He beat you with facts. You know, I think his delivery is much like.
- [87:17]
A
And he makes you look so foolish, but he doesn't intend to do that.
- [87:21]
B
Yeah.
- [87:21]
A
Like.
- [87:22]
B
Yeah. And it comes from a position of love, you know, like an authenticity, and you can tell he's genuine. So, like, I want to try to be that person. And I know sometimes I can come off as being, like, arrogant or smug, and I don't want to be that, like, because I do want to be approachable or relatable, because if I'm not changing hearts and minds and what's the point?
- [87:44]
A
Exactly.
- [87:44]
B
We're just doing it to. To. To tell people how much we know or how much we've learned without genuinely showing how much we care, then I think it's all pointless. And I remember when I was homeless and dealing with all that, that was one of the things that you would hear a lot is, like, show people how much you care before you tell them how much you know. And I tried to try to live by that. Like, show that I genuinely care, like, and meet you where you are. It's hard sometimes it's hard when people.
- [88:13]
A
Are just, yes, yes, it is.
- [88:15]
B
Yes, it is gonna match their energy and just be like, you know what?
- [88:18]
A
Like, yeah, I have to reel myself in all the time. I have to reel myself in and remind myself that I used to be this person.
- [88:24]
B
Person. Yeah. That's the other thing is I got. I remember is that I used to be that person. I doubled down, triple down. But it got me in trouble once, too. So, like, with the Joey Swole thing, right?
- [88:35]
A
Yeah.
- [88:36]
B
And then I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt once. He did his little apology video, and most people said he was disingenuous and it's not sincere, and this was a bad take. And. And I was like, you know what? I try to hear people, and if I feel like that, you know, they're genuinely wanting to learn. And then within 24 hours, he was right back to his.
- [88:55]
A
His whole thing. It was like, yeah, never mind.
- [88:57]
B
And I felt like a real idiot. But it was a learning curve for me because, you know, a lot of my followers were like, you know, we've dealt with this 24 7, you know, and we've seen this. So we can smell sincerity and we can smell fakeness like, a mile away. Like, we know, like, and. And I wanted to believe in the goodness, right? Like, you want to believe that people genuinely want to change and they're sincere when they apologize and they're willing to do the work. And I lost some people, some followers with that, which. Which, I mean, it is what it is. But, like, people know that I'm coming from a place of, like, authenticity and just making myself vulnerable. And, hey, I could admit when I get it wrong, you know, like. And I said that, you know, like, I. Hey, I got this wrong. I thought I gave him the benefit of the doubt, like, because I want to believe that people Want to change, right? Like, I know that I genuinely wanted to change or at least seek truth, you know, like, whatever that looked like, I wasn't so, like, stubborn and stuck in my ways to where it was like, you know, my way or the highway. So, you know, I think that's a big thing. Like, I want to be able to change hearts and minds. And I've had a few people that have come to me. I remember when I first got out of prison, there was a guy that. He did 15 years in prison, a white guy with me and him. And I became pretty good friends in there. And he got out too, and he was doing really well out. When he first saw my platform, like, he was mad, like, how dare you, like, say all this stuff? And now he's full blown, like, left leaning. When he told me too, he's like, man. And he messaged me one day on Facebook and he was. It got to the point where he unfollowed me, unfriended me, like, and we've known each other for years in prison, but he was like, I can't watch your stuff anymore. Like, how can you say that? Being in prison knowing, like, how some of the black people were in there towards white people and how racist they were towards us. And I was like, you just got to understand where, where it's coming from. You know, where black anger comes from. Like, yeah, especially within the criminal justice system. Like, know that that's not. It didn't just happen in a vacuum, first of all. So understand the historical context of why we. Where we are, and then it'll allow you to have some compassion and empathy and then ask some questions and be able to de. Escalate that and diffuse that rather than escalate it and make it worse. Because that's typically what most white people do because they, they become the victims and they become angry and offensive or defensive about, you know, something that they don't try to take the time to try to understand. And. And that's what he finally. He messaged me and he said, you know what? I think I see the light. It. I was like, that's good. Like, you know, like, it's effective. Like, some people are getting it. And like I said, my other friend, you know, and he's still got, you know, a lot of work to do, but I know that he's genuinely trying. So, like, and he's not the brightest crown in the box, and I tell him that he wasn't the best student, you know what I mean? But he asked questions and he's curious and, and, and he's smart in other ways. Right. He wasn't the book smart student, but he was, he's, he knows, like, he's, he knows things about cars and, you know, the trades and the handsy hands person. Right. And I think everybody has their own talents and own gifts and, and some people are educated in, in the books and some people have, you know, other skill set. But he's willing to, like, learn and learn, you know, new things. And that's, that's all I ask, you know, and I'll meet you where you are and I'll even extend, like, I'll hold space for growth, you know, like, even if you like, do things that are still kind of like.
- [92:18]
A
And I gotta, I gotta call you out on that again.
- [92:21]
B
Yeah, I'm gonna call you out. I'm check you every time. I'm gonna call it what it is, you know, But I'm also not gonna completely give up on you, you know, if you're trying to do better. So.
- [92:33]
A
And where can everybody find like all of your content and all the work that you're doing? Can you just give all of those.
- [92:39]
B
Danny F. Collins. So it's on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook. Daniel Collins so, so just, just living.
- [92:48]
A
On the platforms for now.
- [92:49]
B
For now, I need to do like, I, I got to substack. I don't. One of the things like being in prison for so long, like technology kind of passed me by, so I did kind of grasp the other things fairly quickly. But I still, I need to, I want to do the substack and YouTube. I, I was thinking about doing a podcast, but I also feel like there's so many people doing it, but just.
- [93:10]
A
Pick one at a time. That's the way to do it. It's just like, just like baby step it, learn one thing and then after a while it all kind of becomes like a wheel that's running pretty well, but it's just too overwhelming if you take them all on at once.
- [93:23]
B
Yeah.
- [93:24]
A
Well, thank you so much for being here today and thank you for your story. Thank you for the work you're doing, like standing in such an important space because we need people who have changed their minds and people who have grown, especially men, to be having these conversations. And I really appreciate it. And to everyone listening, it's Danny F. Collins on Instagram and TikTok and hopefully we're gonna. I'm planning on doing some panel format online stuff as well, so I'm hoping to bring you on for some of that.
- [93:53]
B
That would be great.
- [93:53]
A
Yeah. And to everyone listening, go follow his page. I'll see you next week on Flipping Tables. Keep fighting the good fight. Hold space for people. Have awkward conversations, and I'll see you next week.