B (2:13)

Well, you're a busy lady.

A (2:14)

Yeah, very busy. So I just am so excited to talk to you about you are born and raised Tennessee girl and doing incredible things with music. Your EP was just spectacular.

B (2:26)

Thank you.

A (2:27)

But I would love to know more about you growing up and how music really started for you.

B (2:33)

Yeah, so for me, I started singing when I was, like, about 4 years old in the children's church choir. Basically. My grandmother, grandfather was the pastor of the church that I grew up in.

A (2:46)

Okay.

B (2:47)

My mom, she played keys and sang gospel music. Like, her song was Long As I Got King Jesus by Vicki Winans. I think that's who that's by. So that was her vibe. And my dad, you know, he had a Christian rock group that toured, you know, in the region. So music was. That's where music started for me in the church, and I'm really grateful for that. A lot of people that I look up to in music, that's where they started, you know.

A (3:20)

Yeah.

B (3:21)

But it was always something that I was going to do regardless if it was a job or not. But even as a kid, I never. I didn't think music could actually be a job. I was like, no, you just. You just like. I was like, songs just happen, right? You know, they just exist in the world. Had no idea how music was made. Had no idea about a lot of things, really. I was so, so sheltered. But a lot of great things. My dad was just like. The one thing that he instilled in me was integrity, how important integrity was. You know, when you say you're gonna do something, do it. When you. When someone asks you, you know, did you do. Did you do this? You don't lie. You know, like, very clear, clear, you know, sense of self in a way, but. But also just, you know, how the church sort of encourages you to grow up in a really specific way. I just, like, knew very little about.

A (4:33)

Very little.

B (4:34)

Yeah.

A (4:34)

It's like I knew my bubble very well. And you grew up. So you grew up slightly outside of Memphis. What was your hometown like?

B (4:42)

My hometown. So I grew up outside of Memphis in a town called Bolivar, Tennessee. There's probably, like, Lord, there's probably, like, three stoplights. Small. Maybe four. Yeah. Small town. Like, we were talking before the pod. 75 people in my graduating class. Yeah. Predominantly black and predominantly, you know, I don't want to say poor, but just middle class, you know, very little people, actually in my town were like, well off.

A (5:14)

Yeah.

B (5:16)

You know, it was like field trails, you know, field parties. Like, wasn't really much to do besides, like, go to the Walmart and, like, walk around.

A (5:28)

Yeah, it's like, we're going to go to Walmart.

B (5:30)

Yep. And. And the parking lot, that was literally. It was like the park. We called it the parking lot because that's what it was. But that's like, literally where people went on the weekends and just parked and literally just listened to music and like.

A (5:42)

Hung out with each other.

B (5:43)

Hung out, did wheelies or, you know, spun out donuts in the parking lot, you know.

A (5:48)

Sounds like where I grew up. That sounds very familiar.

B (5:51)

Being hooligans definitely got into some, you know, stuff as I got older, into high school. But pretty much like my church that I grew up in was not in town.

A (6:03)

Okay.

B (6:03)

And we were also pretty much. We said we were non denominational, but it was Pentecostal, essentially. Not in the traditional sense of Pentecostal, but definitely, like, speaking in tongues, running around the church, you know, like, letting the spirit tell us when the service is over type deal. Very much. Like, you know, people would stand up and be like, I have something to say today, and would prophesy over someone or even just, you know, or just share their testimony of, like, I was praying for this job and I got this job and, you know, all these things. And my friends in Bolivar were going to, like, the First Baptist Church or, like, the First Methodist Church or the First Presbyterian Church, you know, First Church of Christ. Yeah, right. All firsts. And they. So I was really just flung out in the middle of nowhere. The church also had no service at all. Like, cell service.

A (7:03)

Oh, wow.

B (7:04)

So that's partially because it was in, like, basically a 10 building. But yeah. So I always felt, like, separate from, like, what was happening in my. In my hometown as far as like, being a normal kid. Like, I would bring. I would always have to preface my friends, bringing them to my church. Like, okay, just so you know, like, I don't know what's going to happen. And I don't. I don't, like, have. I don't take responsibility. Like, I have no say over this. Like, this could go on for an hour. This could go on for four. Like, I don't know. Yeah. And they're always.

A (7:38)

How big was the church? How many members were there?

B (7:40)

And it's, like, prime in its heyday. There was probably, like, 60, 60 people.

A (7:48)

Okay.

B (7:49)

And it was. I was always like, how in the world had. Did people find this place? Because we were, like, small too, so. Yeah. But Bolivar. I still was in Bolivar has a music scene, though, actually, it's not. It's nowhere near like, what it is in Nashville or Memphis, where I ended up, like, going to college, but there's something there. Some of the most talented musicians I know are from Bolivar. Wow.

A (8:16)

Interesting.

B (8:17)

Yeah. And that's where I met my husband, who was the first artist that I ever met, and he was the one that really showed me. Oh, this is how you write a song. Like, maybe not even, like, great, but just like, oh, this is how it's done. You do it.

A (8:33)

Yeah. These get made by people. Seriously, so amazing. So as you get older, so you're talking about, you know, you're growing up in this sheltered environment. Your music is really being kind of born in the church from the influence of your parents. What was your. When you say sheltered, what did that look like in your family? And what did, like, Christian faith mean to you at that time? Was this, like, hey, this is my family's thing. Was it something that you felt really compelled towards or was it more just an environmental piece?

B (9:02)

I was. I was in it. I was really. I. I'm the oldest daughter. Yeah. Which period. I mean, full stop. Like. And I had two younger brothers. So I was really the example. Not just in my family, but at the church, in the youth group especially. Most of the kids were, you know, it was such a riff raff group of people. But I don't know, I. Music with my family was. I didn't know. Like I said, I didn't know anything. Like, I didn't. I didn't really. I knew of Elvis, Right. Because my great grandmother was, I mean, obsessed with Elvis. My grandmother, who was. Her daughter, was obsessed with the Beatles, so got those two things. My dad was into, like, 80s hair band music. Like, he loves Rat, obviously, like Def Leppard. My mom, I remember, I remember asking her what her favorite music was, and she was like, I don't really know. Like, she's like Bryan Adams, you know. So music was just like this. Obviously, once I got older, I was like, pop music. We're here. Let's do it. Let's do it. You know, Kesha and Katy Perry and, like, all those things. But I didn't really know as far as. What Sheltered means for me is just like, I didn't have a real, like, sense of the world. Like, really how it worked. It was always, like, there was always a spiritual. Spiritual warfare being fought.

A (10:52)

Yeah.

B (10:53)

On my behalf. That, you know, there's. There's forces which, you know, I still believe, you know, I believe that there are things in the world that, you know, that the universe is conspiring on my behalf, you know, Like, I believe that, like, whether that's real or not, you know, so there. And that's an interesting sort of like, mental hijacking. Yeah. And. But I'm aware of that and I consent to that versus, like, growing up and being like, this is the re. This is reality and, you know, the.

A (11:22)

Only thing that you can do and move forward with.

B (11:24)

Exactly. Yeah. Like, just even. Even in the way that I would speak to people, it was just like. Like Adam tells me all the time, he was just like, when you. When I met you, you were just the brightest rose colored glasses, like glass. The glass wasn't just half full. It was like running over the cup was running over. To use a religious.

A (11:53)

Christianese.

B (11:54)

Christianese, yeah. Which I still subscribe to. I love, you know, And I think that's what's cool about growing up and becoming an actual person who thinks for themselves and who, you know, can parse through the details of what you were given. And keeping some things and throwing some stuff away and. And seeing some stuff is just like, you know, a part of your story regardless, you know, So. I don't know. It's been. Obviously it's always a journey, you know, to get where you are, but I'm grateful for what happened and what. Where I grew up, but also glad that I found my way out.

A (12:34)

Yeah. And so you start working with Adam, your husband. Tell me how you first started working with him musically and then how that really changed your musical journey. Cause, like, learning, oh, this is actually a career. Like, this is. This is work that people do. People get paid for this. You know, I was growing up and I remember being asked, well, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I was like, well, I want to sing and write books. And my dad's immediate. My dad immediately, like, intercepted the conversation saying, music isn't a job. You can't do music as a career. So I'm really interested to see how first how you started working with Adam and then how that changed your musical trajectory moving forward.

B (13:10)

Yeah, yeah, I. Excuse me. For me, life really is like, before Adam and after Adam. Yeah, truly. He's. He's. This sounds so weird, but he's my Christ, you know, he's like my before Christ, after Christ. But truthfully, that's what, like, that's what it feels like for me because Adam is someone who. I mean, he basically, like, he's the youngest child of his family, had three older sisters. His mother, God rest our soul, was the greatest human being ever on this planet.

A (13:51)

Oh, man.

B (13:52)

Just classic. One of those Southern women that, like, just, you know, she. She's the. Has all the good qualities of, like, what it means to be a Southern woman. But yeah, Adam had lived. He basically had lived like three lifetimes before I met him. And I had just lived my one little half life of, you know, basically just church and. And that was it. But he had like, he met these people that. In Whiteville, Tennessee that had this huge like house with. With like 27 dogs. The. And the man, the older gentleman, he was sort of like this mentor for everybody who was like this head and. And there were, you know, drugs and a lot of unhealthy things obviously, you know, but a lot of experimenting and you know, especially creatively and just sort of this hub where all these kids could just be degenerates, but, I don't know, also hone in this sense of life and experience and like where. Where we. Where we create from. Yeah. So when I met him, I'm, you know, just basically a baby. And he. He had this song that we ended up recording. We were in a band called the Mason Jar Fireflies for a while and it was this.

A (15:16)

So southern.

B (15:17)

It is so Southern. And he. And it was with that. That older guy that was like the mentor. It was me, Adam and Greg Carmack. And anyway, Adam wrote this song and I came over and I. It was like a duet, you know, and it was cute and fun and he had a girlfriend at the time. And I just. I was like, I'm not interested in that at all as far as romantic, really. But I saw he was so genuine and had a real like, going to. Going toe to toe with Adam is like a feat. Like he. He's like you in that way. Like, you were like, you don't mince. You are like, you are. You got your information and you're like self assured and confident in what you have to say. And that's. That's how Adam is. And yeah, just. I fell in love. I really did fall in love. And my parents were not here for it at all. They just were like, didn't know who this man was. Like the first impression of him was this like mixed CD he used to rap and like. And like. And the content was like liter. The. The mix CD was called Drugs, Guns and Graffiti.

A (16:34)

Oh my God. Your parents were like, absolutely not.

B (16:38)

My dad found it, the CD and he just like, he literally played it and when it got to the first curse word, he like switched to the next song. And when it got to that first curse word of that, he switched to the next song. He was like, his vocabulary needs work.

A (16:56)

Oh my. And like that parents remind me so much of my dad, but he could.

B (17:00)

Have said so much more. Like. But I was just like, yeah, Anyway, I'm going to go over there and I'm going to make music. And I just became. I really feel like I became a. I started to become a person with. With Adam. And not that I wasn't before, but I started to expand my experience of life. And one of the first things that truly shocked my system was he mentioned this, like, movie. I don't know. For you, you can't even. I'm sure it's out there somewhere. I don't know where it's at, but the Zeitgeist.

A (17:37)

Oh, yeah, I've seen it.

B (17:38)

Yeah, that was like. That seems so silly to say, like, but it's true. Like, for someone who had never even, like, remotely considered, I found Adam and I was like, yeah, I can make music. But secretly I was like, I'm gonna save this boy's soul.

A (17:53)

Like, I was like, I'm gonna save him.

B (17:54)

I'm gonna save him. It's. It's the.

A (17:56)

The Christianese version of I can change him. It's. I'm gonn from hell.

B (18:00)

I mean, yeah. I mean, truthfully. And, like, I would pray for him. I like, anyway. But when I saw that, it really shook my foundation, you know? And I'm not even, like, vouching for the validity of this film. I'm just saying that when presented with this particular case of information about how religions are all connected and, like, the 12 disciples with. I don't know, I'm, like, obviously going to butcher it. But, you know, like, how Ra, the Sun God and how the symbols carry.

A (18:40)

Over into each new iteration.

B (18:43)

Yes.

A (18:43)

And if you. If you're listening and you haven't seen Zeitgeist. Zeitgeist is kind of this. It's almost like a history of religion kind of conversation. And it talks about Christianity in particular, but how these symbols and these stories we see reiterated throughout history with, I mean, everything from Egyptians to Mesopotamians to Babylonians, and it carries over into the Greeks and the Romans and then shows up in Christianity. And it is. Especially if you're someone who's never questioned.

B (19:06)

No.

A (19:07)

Because, you know, you grow up in these environments and all the adults in your life believe the same thing. So why would you.

B (19:13)

Yeah.

A (19:13)

And so you see something like that and you're like, what if everything is. What if everything I believe is wrong?

B (19:18)

Yeah.

A (19:19)

Like, what if it doesn't mean what I think it is? And it's extremely destabilizing because a lot of times it's the first time you're asking those questions. And how old were you when you saw Zeitgeist, I was, like, 18. Yep.

B (19:32)

So, like, freshly an adult. And thank you for summarizing that so eloquently. Yeah, it really. I was like. And I was. At the time, we were. We had stopped going to my grandfather's church that I had grown up in my entire life. And.

A (19:50)

Why did you stop going?

B (19:52)

My parents. It was, you know, it was just really muddy of a relationship, you know, not healthy boundaries, you know, with my grandf. And they just were really like, we need to feel like, I don't know that we're doing this. Not just because it's Paw Paul.

A (20:10)

Yeah. Not just because it's his church.

B (20:11)

Yeah, exactly. So we started going to this church. We found a campus in Jackson. Didn't know that it was a satellite campus for a church in Memphis, a big, mega church in Memphis. And I had also just started college, so a lot of transit. Transitory spaces happening at this time. So my foundation was already, like, really was, like, prepped for this moment in my life. And. But I somehow worked through the Zeitgeist situation. I don't know. I was just like, it really. I was depressed for a second, literally for like, a week. And I just, like, didn't know who I was. Didn't know what life is like. I didn't know what it. What was real. And. But I found my way out. And. And when we joined this church, Adam knew that if he wanted to be with me, he had to. He had to go to church for my family. I was quickly. I mean, again, so naive. Just like, oh, my God. Just craving validation from anybody, you know, was confident in myself, but still was just like, you believe in me? Oh, my God. And so when I started seeing singing, you know, I've been singing, leading worship my whole life at this point. So when I got plugged into this.

A (21:36)

Church, and this is the one in the main campuses in Memphis.

B (21:39)

Main campus in Memphis. We were going to the Jackson campus. But eventually, when. Then when I went to college at the University of Memphis, then we started attending the Memphis campus. Okay. And, you know, I started leading worship there, obviously. And they really took to me, and I took to them, and I. And I was just like, you know, I believed in it so hard, and I just was like, I don't know. I just. I really wanted to be good enough.

A (22:09)

Yeah, good enough.

B (22:10)

Good enough. And they were sort of. What I can look back at now is I was basically being groomed to assimilate fully into the fold, and what they wanted was me to be full time Worship leader. Okay. But I had to earn it. Prove yourself and prove myself, you know, to stay after the services to put the chairs up, you know, like, lead. Lead the youth worship, like, be an example to. To all these people, like, serve. That was a big thing at this church, you know. You know, you don't get paid, you're starving, which.

A (22:56)

Who doesn't love some free labor?

B (22:57)

I know. I mean, that's. And that's essentially what it was. And eventually I had, you know, been in it for a while, and one of the head pastors, he called me into his office, and he was like, kendall, you know, Pastor so and so. Pastor so and so. Pastor so and so, who were like, mainly the worship leaders. He was like, we call these people game changers. And he was like, you're. You're a game changer. And these people are essentially celebrities in this church, you know, like. And that's what's also an interesting dynamic, is that the people who are worship.

A (23:34)

Leaders, they're basically rock stars in the church.

B (23:37)

In the church. And I was like, oh, my God. You mean, I'm like that, you know, and I didn't believe in myself truly. You know, I didn't see my real value back then. And so I was like, basically this vessel that anyone could pour into to, you know, achieve what they needed. You know, I was very, like, open and willing. Yeah. So then started this whole campaign essentially of, like, them really, like, as, you know, gradually working me in and, you know, and to the point where this same pastor pasture out to pasture, this same pastor and one of the head worship leaders had me after this service one day, and they worked me up into this emotional state by one of the worship leader pastors telling me basically his life story and how joining the church and being this worship leader and choosing this path was the right thing for him. And. And I was so impressionable and emotionally just, like, ready to be manipulated in this way. That. And then when they got me in that state, they were like, you know, maybe God is telling you to, you know, quit college. You know, maybe, you know, they're like, we don't know. You know, maybe God is telling you to break up with Adam.

A (25:09)

Maybe what they were doing, girl, I mean, oh, my God.

B (25:12)

And then they were like, maybe, you know, God could also be telling you to, you know, not maybe do music full time at the church, you know, like, not be gigging out in the world, you know, And I. And at the time, I was like, is. Is God saying this? Like, I don't know, like, I had no idea. Zero idea. And they had this whole internship that, like, it was a year internship called Damascus Road. And it was essentially where you. You say you essentially sell your soul to this church. And they basically are like, can have you. You're almost like a free. You're an intern. Yeah. Really? To then work in ministry.

A (25:51)

Yeah.

B (25:53)

And they're like, they want to. Really want me to do this. And. And they were like, but we're gonna. We're gonna leave you here alone in this room in this emotional state that you're in. And, you know, you. You just talk to God. Just talk to God.

A (26:07)

That sounds like. Because, I mean, that. That immediately brings to mind, like, the stories you hear about, like, relationships where, like, men have essentially coerced their wives out of the workforce.

B (26:18)

Yes. Right.

A (26:19)

Where it's like, oh, see, this isn't working for you. This isn't good for you. Maybe this isn't what. And it's really about. Right. Control. Right. And that's immediately what I thought of when you said that. And it's like this intentional kind of frenzying of you in order to say, well, maybe you should drop out of college and do what we need you to do.

B (26:38)

Exactly.

A (26:38)

Which is crazy. And so they had met Adam though, too.

B (26:41)

They met Adam, and here's the thing. They wanted to separate me from Adam because they knew they couldn't get him.

A (26:48)

But they could get you if you were by yourself.

B (26:50)

Get me by myself. I was not strong enough mentally, emotionally, spiritually even to handle that sort of coercion. Really.

A (27:02)

So before we get back into you being left alone in this room and what happens next, we're going to take our first of two MID show sponsor breaks. If you would like to have these episodes ad free, you can sign up on patreon@patreon.com Monty Mater. You get the entire catalog ad free with bonus content. And this is our first of two mid show sponsor breaks. This episode is brought to you by Ground News. With everything going on in the United States, it's sometimes hard to keep track of things globally. The protests in Iran, what's going on in Venezuela, and the rise of authoritarianism globally. Yesterday, the Ugandan government shut down the Internet just two days before the parliamentary and presidential elections are supposed to take place. The Ugandan Communications Commission ordered Internet to be stopped, taking the step, stating it was necessary to prevent misinformation and the incitement of violence. Iran did the same thing in the wake of their protests to prevent organizing and prevent access to communications of protesters as well as information being sent out to the outside world. In Uganda, all non essential Internet traffic is now prohibited prior to the election, which happens tomorrow. As of this recording, in the wake of Uganda's President Yower Museveni, A81, who is seeking his seventh term after ruling the country since 1986. Stories like these are so important. It's something that until recently we hadn't really considered. What happens if your country shuts down the Internet to prevent you from accessing information or for organizing a protest, or to prevent you from getting access to information you might need? What if they use it to sway or manipulate elections? And the only reason that I saw this story was because I go every day to Ground News and I look at the breaking news page and then I look at my for you page where I customize based on stories I want to follow that I don't want to get lost in the deluge of news broadcasts every day. But the breaking news helps me find stories like this that I might have otherwise missed. It's really important that we stay informed. One of my greatest fears right now is the rise of authoritarianism and far right, especially misogynistic ideologies that are arising not just in places like the Middle east and in Africa, but also in Europe as well. And I know that being informed right now can be really overwhelming. But Ground News makes it easier to take in the information you need and be able to put the phone down and walk away and make those decisions with your life without being caught up in an algorithm. The danger of getting news from social media, as someone who talks about the news on social media, is that algorithms don't care about truth, they care about engagement and they are not regulated. So it is really important to always have an external news source off of social media that you can fact check with that you can also used to get news without being caught into an algorithm doom scrolling overwhelm or not being able to verify information. And if you would like to be able to use Ground News, you can subscribe to ground news for 40% off. Their vantage plan comes out to about $5 a month at groundnews.com tables. This episode is brought to you by FX's the Beauty Official Podcast. Join host Evan Ross Katz on the Official podcast for FX's hottest new series the Beauty, taking you behind the scenes with its amazing stars as they discuss the show's jaw dropping moments. Featuring Evan Peters, Anthony Ramos, Jeremy Pope, Ashton Kutcher, Rebecca Hall, Bella Hadid, Meghan Trainor, Isabella Rossellini, Jessica Alexander and Ari Grayner Search FX is the beauty Wherever you listen to podcasts, how do you make chicken nuggets like 7,000% better? Short? You let Taco Bell make them long. Start with all white meat chicken nuggets, bread them in crunchy tortilla chips, and serve them with Hidden Valley Diablo Ranch. Yep, that's Hidden Valley Ranch mixed with Taco Bell Diablo sauce. It's exactly what it sounds like and somehow even better. Simple math. Spicy results. Crispy chicken nuggets from Taco Bell, a brand new classic at participating US Taco Bell locations for a limited time only while supplies last. Hey, it's Brooklyn Adams, and I'm partnering with Abercrombie to tell you about the newest drop from their active brand. Your personal best YPB leggings are made with buttery, soft fabrics that hug you in all the right places and come in Abercrombie's viral curve love fit, designed to eliminate waist gap. Paired with sports bras and super soft sweatshirts, it's activewear that supports every part of my busy lifestyle and gives me my best butt ever. Head into the new year feeling your personal best. Shop Active by Abercrombie in the app, online and in stores. And we're back. Okay, so you get left in this room.

B (31:29)

Yeah.

A (31:30)

By yourself. Emotionally frenzied. What happens?

B (31:34)

I'm just laying there on this couch, like, tears just streaming down the sides of my face, and I'm just, like, so confused and, like, trying to find an answer and pleading to God, like, tell me what to do. Tell me what to do.

A (31:54)

You are also gigging out with bands at this point as well?

B (31:57)

Yeah, yeah. I'm also at the University of Memphis. I have a full ride vocal scholarship. I graduated with no college debt, which.

A (32:05)

Is like, listen, y', all, when you hear her sing, you'll understand why she had the scholarship.

B (32:09)

It was. Excuse me. It was huge blessing and, like, what.

A (32:13)

An insane thing to walk away from. I think any adult that cares about you in your life, college is free. Come on.

B (32:20)

I know looking back, it made no sense, but it actually made all the sense in the world for what they were trying to do. And I, I basically, I remember sort of like getting to this, like, blissed out state of like, not euphoria or like even a good feeling, but just like, you know, just dumb and numb in this way. And I convinced myself that I heard the voice of God say, you need to go. You need to go on Damascus Road. You need to walk the Damascus Road. Meaning that I needed to commit my Life to this church.

A (33:04)

Yeah.

B (33:05)

And if I didn't, then I didn't really love God or that I wasn't really worthy. I wasn't good enough. Clearly you weren't good enough, you know, because if you really were about this, you would. You would move forward with this church. And I told Adam about that, and he was livid. His mother was livid. His mother, she was like, oh, if I see that, Pat, I swear to God, I am going to.

A (33:37)

Oh, I love Adam's mom.

B (33:38)

Yes. No, she was so. And she's not that type of. Actually, if she. You go after her kids, which she considered me one of her own, she's gonna go. She's. She's. She will do anything. But. And so for about a week and a half or maybe two weeks, I was, like, really wrestling with it because I. I had this, you know, the. The pastors, you know, really like, urging me to do this. Adam and the rest of my life was like, what?

A (34:07)

Why would you do that?

B (34:08)

Why would you do that? And I was just like. And eventually I decided, I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do the church thing. Still go to church, but not like.

A (34:20)

I don't want to do the Damascus Road situation.

B (34:22)

No.

A (34:23)

And walk away from a full ride scholarship.

B (34:25)

Seriously. And like, everything else I was building in my life, you know, not just music, but, like, as soon as I said no, they flipped a switch. All of the, like, special treatment, I. David, like, call it that, but like, all of the acknowledgment, all of the, like, pouring into me that they were doing. Some of them wouldn't even look at me. And I was just like, I was really hurt by that, like, and couldn't make sense of it in my mind. But I was like, well, at least I still have, like, my boyfriend, you know, Like, I have my. My college friends. Like, I. I still. I had other things that I could, like, you know, plant my feet in when I felt like the rug was pulled out from under me. My parents were not happy about it. They were like, you know, God, I mean, that. And that's a whole. That's a whole story in and of itself. But, like, yeah, it was really rough and. But we kept going to church, though. And then we ended up just going to the Jackson campus and, like, helping that situation out, because it wasn't like, what the Memphis campus was. The Memphis campus was huge. And literally, they built an arena. Like, then Hillsong comes and plays there.

A (35:43)

Wow.

B (35:43)

Okay.

A (35:44)

You know, I was part of Hillsong in New York.

B (35:46)

Get out. In what way?

A (35:48)

So, no, I just. That was my home church. Like, I was there when Carl Lentz was pastor before that whole debacle.

B (35:55)

Oh, my God.

A (35:56)

So it is. It's like they're like concerts. But when I went to Liberty, the time that, you know, you talk about, like, the worship leaders being celebrities. I went to Thomas Roy Baptist Church, and the lead vocalist, worship leader was Charles Billingsley. And he was like an icon. Like, people saw him around town. Like, it was. It was really this kind of modicum of celebrity. And I look back on it now and just even how. And you see this, like, at church camp and in, like, these major churches, like, there's that. There is this manipulation that goes on in these services. And, I mean, there are many good things about it in the sense that you're getting community once a week, you know, and for some people, that time on Sunday is the only time they're shaking someone's hand or hugging someone or getting that in person time. There's. There's a beauty in that. There's a beauty in coming together to. To sing, because when else do we as adults sing if you don't do it for a living in some way? But there's also this manipulation, like the chords they use in the music, the fog machines, the darkness, the changing the temperature in the room. You know, the way the musicians are taught to play for this kind of emotional response. And it. It really becomes very. It does make things really cloudy. Yeah. Because you'll be in this moment and you're like, oh, my God, are they. Are they talking to me? Like, am I in sin? And because it's so much about. You have to perform in such a way to be good enough. There's always that kind of constant need of wanting to make sure you're right with God and wanting to make sure you've done enough and wanting to make sure your place in heaven is secure. And I look back on some of that now, and it kind of makes my stomach hurt. And not that there weren't beautiful moments there, but I can look back now and see the manipulation in it. And just. And I was part of the choir, the Thomas Rowe Baptist Choir, and it just. It makes me sad because, like, there's no reason for that. There's like, something that is good should be able to be good on its own merit without adding all these layers of. And especially for women, like, again, not being surprised at all that they immediately took away favor from you and attention. Because especially with women. Women are expected in the church to do all this free labor. And if you stop doing it, you're not useful anymore. And you see that with women who are printing bulletins or women who are teaching Sunday school or whatever, if they step away, you know, maybe they're burnout. Immediately. The church changes its tone towards them.

B (38:07)

Yeah.

A (38:08)

But doesn't offer to pay them.

B (38:09)

No.

A (38:10)

Or help them.

B (38:10)

No.

A (38:11)

You're. They're just kind of done with you.

B (38:12)

Yeah.

A (38:13)

It's really unfortunate. So what happens at Jackson when you're here trying to kind of build this up separate from the Memphis church?

B (38:20)

Yeah. That's when I was like, all right, this. Can we curse on that? Yeah.

A (38:25)

Yes. You curse all the time.

B (38:27)

I say curse like I'm a second grader. No curse words.

A (38:29)

No curse words. Those naughty words.

B (38:31)

Yeah. No, I. That's when I was like, I. I basically was like, well, I'm gonna, like, have fun.

A (38:39)

Might as well live my life.

B (38:40)

I'm gonna live my life. I, like, got drunk. I was, like, gigging on the weekends. I was, you know, and not doing anything like crazy, but just.

A (38:49)

Just being a young person in the world.

B (38:51)

Yeah. Honestly. And that was really good for me. But what. What you. What you were talking about with, like, the worship services. The worship service aspect of a church service. I've. I've. I. The way I feel about that now is I have no issues, like, with that in particular, but the problem is, is that no one is consenting to this.

A (39:22)

Yeah.

B (39:23)

It is a. It again. It is this, like, altered state. Yes. And this alt. This reality that you're not aware of. Like, you know, all the tactics that are being used to, like, get you into this. Basically hypnosis.

A (39:44)

It's a trance, like state.

B (39:45)

It is.

A (39:45)

In many ways it is.

B (39:47)

And I'm like, if people are aware that this is happening and they're consenting to it.

A (39:54)

Totally different.

B (39:55)

Yes. Communal rituals like this are important, but it's just like, people aren't, like, they aren't aware that this is happening to them. And so they don't have. They don't have that extra. That little. One little line of defense up that's just like, oh, this feels good. But I know this is what's happening. But I'm. I'm engaging this in a healthy way. Like, that's. Now I'm like, if I go to a church, if I ever find a church, you know, I don't know if I'll ever will, but that's. I'm confident that I can go into it with. With that and, like, Feel good about it. Yeah.

A (40:31)

I saw a video where one of my friends who toured professionally with Christian bands, but was a, you know, drummer in, you know, Christian music and worship and leadership, and he actually did a video kind of breaking down. It was a video of him playing and he's like, let me show you what I'm doing to create. Cause he deconstructed and is now, you know, separate from like the organized church. But he would literally break down, broke down throughout the song, what he was doing to create this emotional response. And he was like, and I'm doing a fill here. And here's what's happening in the lyrics. And then I pause.

B (41:03)

Yeah.

A (41:03)

And it, like, it gives me goosebumps thinking about this. I know, because you're just like, oh, my God.

B (41:07)

Yeah.

A (41:08)

And it's so. And again now looking back, and I'm like, oh, it is so clear because it really does, you know, turn you into a trance, like in a trance like state. Especially in. In. I remember this the most strongly with like, like Acquire the Fire and the youth groups and youth camps. You know, it's all these young, really impressionable kids. It kind of becomes this fever pitch emotional thing. And in the moment, you're like, this feeling I have is proof that this is real. Is proof that this is true. Is proof. Is proof. Is proof. But it wasn't until I got older and started experiencing non Christian music in college and going to concerts and you see that trance state happen again and you're like, oh, it's the music, it's the feeling. And it's the combination of music, the feeling, and people being around you in the environment. And I started to realize that, oh, this trance like state is more related to the music than it is anything else. And when I can go to a concert knowing, same as you said, I'm consenting to what I'm gonna get into, whether it's a heavy metal concert and that's a mosh pit or it's something else. And that was really eye opening for me because those feelings and that fervor was part of what, for me made me believe growing up that it was 100% real. That it was like, oh, this has to be real. It's kind of like it's almost in alignment with the idea of answered prayer as you talked about earlier. Everyone's praying for this thing and then it happens. We'll use the job as an example because that's what you use. It's like, okay. But you also did the work to send out 10 applications and you did really well in your interview.

B (42:45)

Yeah.

A (42:46)

So did you just put your mind to it? And even if that prayer or that meditative state helped you initiate the action you needed to do.

B (42:53)

Right.

A (42:55)

But it's like, it goes through this lens where it can only be this one thing.

B (42:58)

Yeah, well. And it's because all glory to God.

A (43:01)

Right?

B (43:01)

You know, it's like.

A (43:03)

And if you praise yourself for doing the work. Well, you're arrogant.

B (43:06)

Yeah. Yeah. And you know that you must decrease so he can increase. It's just like, why is God, like, so, like, obsessed with himself?

A (43:16)

Why does he need to be in the chat?

B (43:17)

Seriously, Like, I mean, you know, I just am like, what was. I just remember asking my mom one time. I was like, why? Is God jealous? Yeah. What does he have to be jealous of? And she was like, well, I can't remember what she said. It was some, like. And I remember also asking her, I was like, so God can do anything, right? She was like, yeah, he can. And I was like, so he could drop a house on us right now if he wanted to? And she's like, I guess. I think yes. You know? And I was like, well, why doesn't he do it? And she's like, well, he doesn't want to. And I just like, you know, God is like the wizard of Oz dropping houses on witches. Right, Exactly.

A (44:01)

You know, just dropping houses on people.

B (44:03)

Like, fair enough. You know, that was like, a stupid example. Mom's like, he's not going to drop a house on us. But, like, you know, I was, like, questioning, like, but why. Why, though? You know, why does. Why is God, you know, why do we prop him up in this way? And I just. Obviously, you know, it's like, as a kid, you're just like, unquestioning, sort of like, okay, well, this is just the way the world is.

A (44:25)

Yeah. This is the way the world works. And I don't want to make God mad, so I'm going to go along with it.

B (44:28)

Right, Exactly. But. But, yeah, it's wild, dude. It's really wild. Looking back, and what year was it.

A (44:35)

That you went to the Jackson Church? And when did you stop going there?

B (44:40)

Yeah. Excuse me. I, like, had dairy yesterday. No, I started going. We started going to the Jackson campus originally when I turned 18 and then went to college. And I probably was around, like, 21, 22, maybe 23 when we stopped going there.

A (44:58)

Okay.

B (45:00)

And I had. Dude. I was like, so. I was so, like, unfulfilled. I hated everybody. I hated, like, forcing myself to do this and Less with, like. Actually, you know what I was like, at one point, I claimed to be an atheist.

A (45:18)

Oh. Because what was the. Like, the incident that you finally just walked away from the church entirely? Like, not with going back to the Jackson campus. What was the moment that you were just like, I'm done?

B (45:28)

Well, it was more honestly, like, logistically, I moved. I went one summer, my final summer before my senior year of college, I went to Nashville.

A (45:39)

Okay.

B (45:40)

And I had an internship, quote, unquote. But really, I was working with a producer and we were writing and whatever, and, you know, and that never really came to anything, but it was like the first time that I was on my own. Not even with Adam, who was like a. Like, rock for me. And in a lot of ways is responsible for, like, who I became eventually as a person. But I was like, I didn't have to go to church. Yeah. On Sundays. And I remember the first Sunday that I had that I had that I didn't go to church. Maybe, like, for the first time in my life, maybe. Besides, like, being on vacation or something and getting back to sickness, but truly of my own power. I woke up and I listened to. It's this Emmylou Harris song. But it's like, troubles and trials often betray those. And it's like this folk gospel song. And I remember I just, like, I was listening to that song a lot, and I put it on and I just had a cup of coffee. And the peace that I felt in that moment was so real. It was like, wow, I don't have to do this anymore. I don't have to pretend. And the church in Jackson just had to fend for their own. Adam, bless his soul, was still there, just, like, holding it down on base with my parents, you know, Adam probably just like, I still want to be with this girl, and I gotta. I gotta grin and bear it. And, yeah, it was. It was incredible. And so I just. Just, like, eventually I was just like, I'm not going back. Yeah, I'm not going back there. Like, that's stupid. Why would I do that? So I don't know.

A (47:29)

That's really what happened. So this is like, now the chapter of, like, you're out of college. Yeah, you're. And now music is. Music is a real. A real endeavor. A real thing of, like, I can make money doing this.

B (47:40)

Yeah.

A (47:40)

What happens after that?

B (47:42)

After that, me and Adam really, like, we just, like, hit the ground running. Like, at first, it was just, like, trying to get as many gigs as possible. Like, and literally, like, just playing to no one like. Yep. Been in those rooms for four hours straight, you know. 200 bucks. Yeah. For four hours straight. Which. I mean, that. I don't know. So some people are like, oh, really? Four hours, 200 bucks. But like, as a vocalist. As a vocalist and, you know, inflation and just how the rates have not changed, you know, like, um. But it. That's a whole.

A (48:17)

And also, as a private contractor, you're taxed way more heavily.

B (48:21)

Yes. Yeah. And we could go into all that. Oh, yeah.

A (48:25)

More on that later.

B (48:26)

Yes. But yeah. And just worked ourselves to death, really. And then we. That same producer that I worked with in that summer, he's like, why don't y' all move up here? Like, come up here. And we started working at this sushi place. Like music.

A (48:45)

Yeah.

B (48:45)

At a sushi joint.

A (48:46)

That's hilarious.

B (48:47)

Which doesn't. If anyone has been to a sushi place, music is like. It doesn't like. It's a weird puzzle to fit.

A (48:54)

Yeah.

B (48:54)

It's a weird.

A (48:55)

It's a weird spot to be in.

B (48:56)

Yeah. They really, really all. If you want music at a sushi plays, it should be just like low key jazz. No. No vocals.

A (49:02)

No vocals. Two or three piece.

B (49:04)

Yeah. Just filling up the vibe. But we played there four nights a week, beating our heads up against each other just like. I mean, eventually it got to a point where, like, I was like, I can't do this anymore. And that plays truly. I feel like the trauma that I got from that place was because it was a sushi place. And it was. We had to be so quiet. So quiet that it like forced us into this small place.

A (49:39)

Cause you can't let it rip at any point.

B (49:41)

No. And you're overly. Like, half the job of a performer is observing.

A (49:47)

Is reading the room.

B (49:48)

Yeah. And when the room is kind of doesn't want you there. And it's also like so quiet and. And you're watching everybody's minute facial expressions and like, you know, trying not to. Trying to make everybody in this room happy. And it's like, that's not possible. And we like, really. The mental. The mindset that. That put us in is not the mindset that you have to be an artist.

A (50:18)

Yeah.

B (50:19)

It's like to be an artist. And I really had to, like, do the work to get that out of my system. And similarly, it kind of in. And I was. Again, I was already sort of prepped for that because of church. They want you to be confident in the Lord. Yeah. And they want you to be, you know, like, when you're Worshiping to be, you know, whatever, but that. It's not for you, though.

A (50:42)

It's not for you. And it's not your own choice. And it's not like. It's not about trusting your own decisions and your own intuition and your own inner voice. It's about. It has to be all external for God instead of for yourself. And I think that that's enhanced in women as far as, like, this kind of education that teaches us to ignore our own intuition of, like, you know, and our own autonomy in a way of, like, no, I don't want to do this.

B (51:05)

Yeah.

A (51:06)

And a lot of women end up in the cycle of, well, I have to do this, because this is what a good Christian woman does, or this is what a good wife does, or this is what a good mother does. And so they end up in these cycles of. I think one of the things that was jarring for me when I was deconstructing was learning how to listen to my own voice and realizing coming out of it that I didn't even know what I liked. Yeah, I didn't know what I liked. I didn't know what foods I really loved. I didn't know what kind of music I actually really liked. What do I want to do with my free time? Do I. And part of my deconstruction started with restaurants. I would take myself out to eat and just try new things because it was always, well, you're gonna eat what you're served. You're gonna eat all of it, and you're not gonna complain. And so I didn't. And then I realized I was an adult, and I don't have to eat asparagus. No one can make me. No one can make me. I know, but it was. I look back at it now, and I'm like, how sad to be, you know, in your mid-20s, and you have no idea who you are. Yeah, not a clue.

B (52:02)

I know.

A (52:02)

And. And it almost feels like guilty and kind of shame inducing to be like, I'm gonna do something for myself or I'm gonna make this decision for me. Like, it feels like arrogance and pride when it's not, you know, especially if. Even looking through the lens of faith, if God has given us these gifts and you have one of the most incredible voices I've ever heard, why wouldn't he want you to use it for yourself? Why wouldn't he want you to, you know, put you in that role? There's so much contradiction there for me of, you know, not everybody can do these, you know, not Everyone can be a worship leader, and not everybody should.

B (52:36)

Yeah.

A (52:36)

And it's such a. It's such an interesting kind of contradiction for me. So what happens after the sushi place? Where do you. Where do you go musically from there?

B (52:46)

Well, yeah, we really. I mean, God, what did we even do? Well, we stopped playing there, thank God. Because of COVID Oh, right. Literally, it was like once Covet happened.

A (53:01)

This is actually, like, way more recent than I thought it was.

B (53:03)

Yes, girl. Yeah. So we moved back. We moved to Nashville probably around, like, 2018, a year after I graduated college. And we found this, one of the last few houses on Wedgewood, Houston area that, like, hadn't been turned into a tall and skinny. Yeah. Awful house. But it was our first one. It was our first one, and we were really proud of it. And. And we. I. During COVID I was like, I hadn't really found my voice yet as an artist, obviously, being a. As, you know, like, singing in bands where you're singing other people's music, you can have your own sense. You obviously can be an artist in that realm, meaning that you can apply your own preferences and you can choose. Sprinkle on it. Yeah, yeah. But. But for me, I was so good at, like, mimicking other people that I was like, I don't know, to your point about, like, not knowing what you like and what you do as a person and a creative being, you know, and so in Covid, that get. That created so much space for everybody, and we all had such varying experiences in that, like, the tragedy of that. And then also the breath that we all could take, the deep breath that we all took during that time lasted forever. And, you know, and that's what that's. Seasons are really important, you know, and sometimes you can outlast that season. And we really, you know, so when it ended, it was like, okay, thank God. But when it. In the middle of it, I was writing and I was asking myself, like, what do I do as an artist? And Adam had went to LA and had picked up one of our friends who, like, that's the whole story. But, you know, but it was his time. He came home to Nashville and lived with us. And while they were gone, I was in the studio writing, and we made this pop, like, this full pop EP that the genre wise was, like, each song was different. And I still stand by those productions, and I still stand by the songwriting and, like, what I was saying in them, you know, and I think that's an important thing to remember is that, like, you know, that is not who I am anymore as an artist, but it helped me get to where I'm at right now.

A (55:27)

You know, it's a chapter of it.

B (55:28)

It is a chapter of that. And yeah, I just. Honestly, a lot of my life musically has been gigging. I'm a gigging musician, and I don't necessarily wear that as a badge of honor, but at the same time, I'm like, but damn it, that's what got me. That's what I mean. I cut my teeth in Memphis, you know, like, and in Nashville, too. But, you know, getting out of the gig scene, any working musician knows, it's like, you can really stay in that.

A (56:01)

Realm forever if you want to.

B (56:02)

Forever. Forever and ever and ever and ever.

A (56:05)

I mean, I just got out of it in September.

B (56:07)

Yeah.

A (56:07)

You know, and it's even. It's like, we're working on original music, but it is. It's like. And it's also part of your identity because when you do it for so long, it's like, oh, well, I'm not. Why am I not doing two to three gigs a week? And yeah, it's. It's a really big shift, but it is. You know, that was a moment for me that even before my platform took off, I had been talking to the guys about, like, because I was running a personal training business and I was gigging so much, I was like, I didn't have time to do original music. And I kept saying to the guys, I came here to be an icon, not mimic them. But I started to lose, you know, but gigging for me was a big part of finding my voice. Cause I moved here at the end of 2020. I was here. I moved here in December of 2020 and had no idea, like, I was doing. I knew it was gonna be in the rock realm. I knew that was kind of where. But it wasn't until we were doing these again, four hour non stop shows that I was like, oh, I actually, like, really love hard rock and heavy metal and that's where I want to live musically. But I didn't know until I had time to kind of massage and feel it all out. And then I had to get out of the. The constant gigging in order to write. I just didn't have the. I didn't have the creative bandwidth.

B (57:12)

Yeah.

A (57:12)

To write that much creatively when I was in it. And. And you. And so you move here in 2018. You said you and Adam got married in 2019.

B (57:20)

20. 19.

A (57:21)

2019. And then Covid hits.

B (57:22)

Then Covid hits. Yes.

A (57:24)

And so how does, like, CBS and postmodern jukebox all happen?

B (57:29)

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, that. Well, that was like. That was some, like, years later, but still, it is like, let's see. When did postmortem jukebox happen? Well, I'll say this. A couple years ago in July, my friend Sam. Hey, Sam. He sent us this picture of his TV from, like, CBS Mornings, which, you know, it's because he works, like, a regular job. Quote, unquote, quote. Yeah. And so he watches the news in the morning, and he saw this, and it was this. The CBS Morning's mixtape music competition. And I didn't think this was real. Yeah, I didn't think it was real. It was so random. I was, like, googling things. Couldn't find anything about it, really. It was like, one little announcement had been made, and. But I was like, okay, well, whatever. And so the whole premise or the whole, like, thing, the audition process was. They wanted you to create a new rendition of I Can See clearly by Johnny Nash.

A (58:34)

Okay.

B (58:35)

So specific. That's another thing that was so random. And, you know, they were like, think upbeat. Kick off the morning. Da, da da. And our friend David Bruls, who engineered and mixed the EP that I just put out, he has a little, you know, basement studio. And it's cool, and it's. And I just, like. I was like, okay, y', all, I'll feed you. It'll be, like, maybe an hour of your time, you know? So I got, like, keyboard player, guitar, bass, drums, and. And we just shot it. And I was like. I kind of was like, I feel like we're gonna win. I don't know.

A (59:14)

Is that wrong to feel?

B (59:15)

Well, I only felt that way. Cause it's like, you didn't know who was gonna, like, what. There's so many great, talented people out in America, the world. And I didn't know what our competition was gonna look like. It could have been anything. And there was all sorts of things. There was actually Dylan Rockoff, who is a Nashville artist. He got into the top three. Okay. Of it. So it was like, I can't remember who the other one is, but it was. And then it was me and Dylan, and we were in. It was like, let's go, Nashville. But anyway, it was crazy. I knew before it was a whole, like, voting process that people were engaged in. And I knew actually, like, three weeks before it was announced that we had won. And I still had to, like, play it on social media.

A (60:03)

Like, please vote.

B (60:04)

Please vote, you guys. It really matters. Fingers crossed. And But I. You know, I. You had to do what you had to do, and. Yeah. And then they scheduled this thing. They were like, okay, we need you to, like, be ready. We're gonna do this FaceTime thing with the. With some of the team members. We're gonna ask you some questions. They're like, become, like, looking decent. Makeup and stuff.

A (60:30)

And I was like, look like an artist. Look like you're gonna go and do a show.

B (60:32)

Yeah. The national. You're on national television. Maybe. I didn't know. But anyway, I sit my phone down, and Gayle King is on my freaking cell phone. And. And I was like, oh, okay. I'm like, well, Gail King, she ain't just gonna be out here, you know, like, just like, how you doing? I'm like, I won this. Yeah, Gail King's on the phone. And so she. Anyway, so she's like, well, Kendall, I have some great news. And I was like, oh, my God. And then she was like, you won. And they played that reaction, like later when I was actually on the show and was like, hi, everybody. I'm the winner. And then they played the performance of it. We went to New York twice. They put us up in Times Square. Went to see the Book of Mormon.

A (61:23)

Yes. Great show.

B (61:25)

Incorrect. Turn it off. Anyway, that's, like, literally the only line I know from that musical. But, yeah, it was great. It was so much fun. Drank entirely too much the entire time. But now, let's see. At the time of this episode, I'm, like, looking at my watch that I don't have. That you don't have. I will be sober for a year in March. Wow. So I'm happy about that.

A (61:51)

Amazing.

B (61:51)

Yeah.

A (61:52)

What was. What was the impetus behind that?

B (61:55)

Just how easy it is to. As a musician, to. To indulge in it. People are like, let me buy you a drink. Let me buy you a drink. What are you drinking? What are you drinking? Come on. You know, they're like. They're giving you all this, like, fuel.

A (62:08)

Yeah.

B (62:09)

But I just had a year and a half that was, like, really heavy, heavy partying and to the point where I was like, if I keep this up, I'm probably. This is not going to end well.

A (62:23)

Like, I'm going to be in a problem.

B (62:24)

I'm going to be in a problem. I'm not going to be in this world, you know, like, if I keep this up. So. Yeah. And that's also been a part of my healing. I didn't think that it was really a big deal, you know, I didn't think that by me partying, I was like running from something feeling, like refusing.

A (62:48)

To feel the feelings.

B (62:49)

Yeah. But I didn't consider it that I was like, no, I'm just having fun now.

A (62:54)

This is just what, this is what musicians do and this is what artists do. And you know, we're working super late at night.

B (62:58)

Yes. And you know, but then I stopped and it wasn't a conscious decision. I just stopped. And then I realized that I hadn't been drinking and I was like, oh, well, I'm see how long I can go with this. And girl.

A (63:16)

Before we get into that, because this is exactly where I'm very excited to ask you this because I just started a year of sobriety as well. So I just before I do that, we're going to do our second of two mid show sponsor breaks. As a reminder, if you don't want to have these ads, you can subscribe@patreon.com montemater for AD free episodes. I am your host, Stassi Schroeder. Welcome to Tell Me Lies the official podcast. What's the most unhinged thing of season three?

B (63:43)

Steven.

A (63:44)

Because he's so evil, I do think he is misunderstood.

B (63:47)

You see everyone face consequences.

A (63:49)

It's intoxicating. The writers just know how to trick ya. There's always a twist in this show.

B (63:54)

It's nothing you would expect.

A (63:56)

Tell Me Lies the official podcast. Now streaming and streaming stream the new season of Tell Me Lies on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. Okay, so. Cause I've, I just dived in as well with. And it was the same thing when I was gigging. I was just drinking more than I wanted to because even if you are only having two drinks a show, but you're playing four nights a week or five nights a week, that's a lot. Yeah, it gets to be a lot. Especially for women. That's a lot of alcohol. And I didn't like that. And so I pulled back when we stopped gigging as much. I would still drink occasionally. But then what I noticed that I didn't like was I could go for one, two, three months without drinking, no problem. But when I would hit like a really big stressor, the first thing I wanted was a drink was that glass of wine or whiskey or whatever. And I just didn't like that relationship. Yeah, I just didn't. I was like, what happens if I go through these really stressful times without it? Yeah, what happens? And I have noticed immediately, like, oh, I feel feelings and I dislike this very much.

B (64:58)

Yeah, yeah. Like, wow, I'm so here.

A (65:02)

Yes. I'm so present.

B (65:04)

Yeah. And sometimes not in a good way.

A (65:05)

And not in a good way. And just. And just.

B (65:07)

Well.

A (65:08)

And even I noticed it because, again, stress was the big trigger for me. So sitting in these really stressful periods.

B (65:13)

Yeah.

A (65:14)

With, you know, like, what's going on politically, but, like, just feeling.

B (65:17)

Yeah.

A (65:17)

Feeling the weight of it. Feeling. And also trying to figure out, okay, how do I cope with this? How do I output this in a way that is healthier? So what is that year of experience been like for you emotionally?

B (65:29)

Yeah. Well, greatest decision that I have ever made. Honestly. I told Adam that the other day. He was like, I'm right here. I'm right here. What about me?

A (65:39)

And I'm like, you were.

B (65:40)

You're up there. But personally, I mean, just invaluable, really. I. God, you know, those uncomfortable feelings come up, and instead of, like, trying to mask them or cover them up or escape them, I. I'm asking why? And what are those? You know, and, you know, anxiety and anger and even depression, even sadness, you know, these things that we experience, you know, they're messages or messengers to you, potentially. And not to downplay real depression and anxiety that people face, because that is. That's also. That's a separate thing. But I know for me, I really took a look at myself for the. Like, the first time in my life. Like, I mean, there's a. Jason Isbel. I love Jason Isbel. Me and Adam, my husband, we love him. And there's a line that he has in his new record, I think, where he says, I haven't been this sober since 17. Yeah. And that line never. Line went up right over my head every time I heard it. But now I'm like, no, actually, I haven't been this sober since I was 17. And that's just wild. I'm like, I. Look, I'm 30. Lord. I'm at the point now in my life where I'm like, how old am I?

A (67:14)

I don't feel any different. So I feel like I'm the same.

B (67:16)

Yeah. No, I'm 32 now and 17. Dude. That means just your entire 20s, which, you know, I believe that's what that time is for. You know, just don't go off the deep end. Be responsible. But, yeah, I actually hear toward the end of last year, I started maybe sort of the second half of the year, I really started doing this thing that I've. I didn't coin this necessarily, but I started calling root work.

A (67:46)

Yep.

B (67:46)

Which is getting down to it, getting down to it within you, you know, like, what are the powers at play here? What's going on under the hood? And, you know, and I started reading this huge book, Eve. It was like how the female body drug 200 million years of human evolution. I bought the book Women who Run with Wolves. You know, that really kicked off a lot of things. And I realized, you know, that partially from being sober, but also just sort of like taking this moment that being a woman in the music industry, or maybe not even. Just obviously not even the music industry just as a whole, but for me specifically, I'm constantly. You too. Around men.

A (68:40)

Yeah, all the time.

B (68:41)

Always around men. And I'm not saying that's a problem, but I do think that the. The state and the mental. The perspective sort of that you develop when you're constantly around guys. It's like I heard Haley Williams talk about, like, her growing up, you know, in Paramore, you know, and like, her being at Warp Tour and, like, you know, and just all these places and people that she was around, she constantly had to, like, diminish her femininity.

A (69:12)

Yep.

B (69:13)

And protect it in this way and sort of put it in this box and be like, well, that's.

A (69:17)

Put that in my pocket for later.

B (69:18)

Yeah, but this isn't going to help me right now. Off her new record, she has a song called Hard. And she's like. The second verse is like, I got married once in combat boots and only listened to testosterone music. I had to kill my feminine just to do it, to get through it. I had to go through it or something. And I resonated with that so hard. I realized, like, I have. I haven't had women in my life that I'm like, that see eye to eye with me with this stuff. So reading, you know, Women who Run with Wolves, you know, like, I was like, wait a minute. I am not to, like, hear me roar. But, like, I am a woman, and that means something.

A (70:04)

Yeah.

B (70:05)

You know, there's like, parts of being a woman that are so deep. And I wanted to know what that. What was in that. Well, like, I didn't, you know, like, and being sober kind of. I mean, not being sober, drinking and constant partying and just noise and chaos that I just don't have a prayer for me. I didn't have a prayer of tapping into that with being under the influence.

A (70:35)

I don't think that you can, to be honest, like, even with my own work that I've done, like, and I have, like, a very committed spiritual practice so much of it happens in like the sober, quiet moments. Yeah. And the sober, quiet moments, I think are what we run from. Because it's uncomfortable. It's because what is in here, what's bothering me, what I feel anxious. You know, I know so many people that simply cannot sit with themselves.

B (71:00)

Yeah.

A (71:01)

And they can't sit in the silence. And it is painful. And that silence gets really loud. But that I think is where you really start to find out who you are and start to. I think that that's where real healing happens. That deep. That deep stuff. And I resonate also so much with your like, about being around women. Cause I was in fitness industry and music industry, so just around men all the time. But I was also raised by my dad. I never knew my mom. And so my whole life has been this very masculine oriented. And I tend to present very masculinely personality wise, which is just. So I was already kind of leaning that way anyway. And this is the first time in my life really this last year that I have strong female friends.

B (71:42)

Yeah.

A (71:43)

Like really close community friendships with women. And it is very different. Yeah, it's so different. And I think that. I don't think I would have noticed that had I stayed. Especially when I was gigging like four to five nights a week.

B (71:53)

Yeah.

A (71:54)

I think I wouldn't have even noticed.

B (71:56)

Right. Yeah, I know. Have you, have you also. Have you experienced like before you found these women that being around other women was difficult?

A (72:11)

Yeah.

B (72:11)

Like maybe it's a. Maybe it's a certain type of person too that, you know, personality wise clashes. But for me, I always felt like I only know how to be around dudes, actually. Yeah. That's how I grew up.

A (72:22)

All my friends were guys, like throughout high school and college. And I always had a. Like I perceived it as just, I don't get along with girls. And it's not that I disliked women at all, but I just felt like I had a hard time. And what I realize now, looking at it is women made me feel more vulnerable. And like when a woman was more emotional and she was more connected and it was just emotional intelligence.

B (72:44)

Right.

A (72:45)

But it was, it made me feel. Because I was so used to. Because. Because what is machismo? It's masking. It's like, I'm gonna just put this wall up. Nothing's wrong. I'm not. Everything's fine. And so I had gotten so used to that mode that when I met people who weren't like that and who were like, hey, what's really going on with you? Or they were willing to share their lives with me. It freaked me out.

B (73:05)

Yeah.

A (73:05)

Because it made me feel. It made me feel so exposed, but it also made me feel really lonely because I wasn't connecting with people on that level. So it made me feel extremely vulnerable. And now I'm so thankful for it because I have these spaces with these women who are so incredible, where that space is allowed. And also in my community in Nashville, there's been a lot of men who are that open who have also become part of this group. And it's such a different. It's made me wonder. I'm like, have I ever had real friends before now?

B (73:37)

I know.

A (73:38)

Like, real friends who know what's going on with me. Like, have I been my own friend until now? And that's been. That's been the question I've been wrestling with for really, the last three weeks, is have I been my own friend.

B (73:51)

Yeah.

A (73:52)

Or have I just made myself shelve everything?

B (73:55)

Damn. That's. I love that. I mean, I. Obviously, there's pain in that.

A (74:01)

Yeah.

B (74:01)

But the honesty of that. Yeah. I. I don't know if you've. Which, I mean, I feel like you're a witchy girl. I am. I am. But I recently have been doing nightly readings, and I don't claim to, like, know really anything about it, but I'm working with, you know, a book I have, and. And one of the things that's come up for me, and I didn't really understand what. What that means when you're working with Tarot. I didn't know that in Tarot. Again, it's like these practices that, you know, I don't know their history, but I. It feels, like, inherently feminine to me. Yeah. Which is another reason why I was like, I want to do this. I want to dive into this. But. But, yeah, one of the things that come up has come up for me and it. And it all goes back to church, dude. It all goes back to church is I have been. I have been in this fix it mindset. So I will read the books and I will watch the podcast, and I.

A (75:13)

Will, you know, and I'm going to ace the test.

B (75:15)

I'm going to ace a test, and I'm going to, you know, I'm going to constantly, you know, self analyze and self police and journal and. And. God, I wish I could remember the cards. The moon came up for me, and that's really what unlocked it for me, because I had this dream of that I was like, I was trying to manage this serial killer and your Dreams sound like mine. Okay. Yeah. And I was like, if I don't constantly manage the serial killer, he's going to wreak havoc.

A (75:45)

Yeah.

B (75:46)

And I worked with that image with the tarot. And, dude, the. The arc of that, I. Again, I'd like. I was like, in it. And I wish I could remember the cards, but I realized that for me, I've been trying to avoid pain by fixing. And I think if I can just fix it, then I'll. Then I won't have to feel.

A (76:11)

Nothing will hurt.

B (76:12)

Yeah. And that's just simply not true.

A (76:15)

And I think some of that, like, what ties back to church in that for me is, like, it's. It goes back to what we talked about earlier, about being good enough. And it's always, do, do, do, do, do, and what you don't learn. What I'm learning in. In my journey right now is, like, the distinction between being a human doing and being a human being.

B (76:35)

Yeah.

A (76:36)

Being is so hard.

B (76:37)

It is so.

A (76:38)

It is so hard. And one of the things when I. Because when I started, like, researching in my. And I just started researching a bunch of occult stuff, because that's, like, the one that's the biggest thing in the church of, oh, you can't touch a Ouija board, or you can't do this because you'll summon a demon and you'll. And so I'm. I'm a history person. I was like, well, what is. What's the history of these things? Like, where did they come from? So I researched Ouija boards, which started as, like, a game. Like, as a board game, I know, in, like, you know, society. And then they would start holding seances. And it was this really trendy thing to do. And, you know, the history of tarot being this kind of aristocratic game that eventually kind of became this predictive future thing. But one of the things I've realized and when I started looking into it is so much of ritual. No matter what headline the ritual is under. Right. Because even Christians engage in ritual. Communion's a ritual. One of the things about ritual is I'm like, even if this is real or not, me sitting by myself with the question is going to help me find the answer. And I think sometimes the benefits that people see from meditation or tarot or all these different types of ritual is that we're sitting down long enough to think about the question. And I think that that in and of itself is of great value. And I think it's. And I also just think it's really interesting to learn how These things have evolved.

B (77:58)

Yeah, but it is.

A (77:59)

So much of it is burying ourselves. Mine is always work. If I work harder and I work faster and I extend my hours and I'm more tired and I skip my meals, and if I do, do, do, I'm gonna get there. I'm gonna run through the wall, like, full speed ahead. And I'm learning that that's not it. And now I've finally started to learn that when I feel that urge to overwork and to speed up and to do more is actually when I need to do less.

B (78:25)

Yeah. Yeah, I know. The practice of doing the opposite of what you feel you need to do, that has been so like with my phone. If I feel my attention span is getting shorter and I'm not, like, focusing, I'm like, okay, then I need to, like, not be on Instagram for, you know, like. And even if I. And to deny that urge. Yeah. And it's hard. It really is hard.

A (78:50)

It gets so addictive. And, I mean, that's what the algorithms are built on is.

B (78:53)

Yeah.

A (78:53)

The ability to capture our attention, keep us in them for however many hours we doom. Scroll.

B (78:58)

Yeah.

A (78:58)

And then. And working in social media now, because this is what I do full time, I've, like, realized I'm so much more aware of how disconnected it makes us from ourselves in the real world. And so for me, it's become this huge priority of I want to spend in person time with real people hugging people, talking to people. I have a lockbox for my phone, so if I feel like I'm getting grabby with it, I lock it away.

B (79:22)

Yeah.

A (79:23)

I'm like, no, no, I'm not doing this.

B (79:25)

People are creating. They're basically like making their cell phones a landline now. Exactly. So they're like. It's like, like hooked to the wall, and you cannot walk around with it in the house, you know, as like a practice, you know? Y. Yeah, dude. I. Yeah.

A (79:38)

So I didn't realize that your album, your ep kind of happens in this sobriety journey.

B (79:46)

It did. It kind of did, I guess. Yeah, you're right. It actually, I. We had wrote. We. We actually wrote most of this project when in the middle of Adam's mother going through basically the end of her life. She had, you know, been diagnosed with cancer, this woman. Literally, she had, like, five rare diseases. I mean, she was like, what a trooper. Yeah. Like, one of them was like, blackbirds disease, which it's really. I don't either. Really. But I know she had it in her eyes, and that was so Rare, apparently. And anyway, but. But. But she had a really rare form of cancer. And she was like, I mean, again, she's the greatest person I've ever had the privilege of knowing. And we would. Adam, we would drive back and forth from Nashville to Mississippi. We would gig on the weekends, then we come back to. To Mississippi, and basically, you know, care. Be in house, care for Jill and, you know, and bring the studio, like, every single time, bring it, and then come back to Nashville, gig, go back, bring the studio. And we were writing. And, like, the songs off the EP aren't like, you don't. You won't feel that in the ep. And I think part of that was us really just, like, escaping from it, like, creating. Not. There's still truth in it, but it's like. Like, not about, you know, grief necessarily or, you know, but it is about love and, like, life and life, you know, the song Higher, the single was really, if anything, if any of the songs connect to this time period, it's. It's that one, because it's like reaching for something better, for something more, you know, out of this hole that you're in. And. Because we certainly felt like we were in a hole at the time. And when she passed it, actually, then we just went off the deep end as far as partying. But we found our. And that was around the time actually, we were gigging at Electric Jane.

A (82:03)

Yep.

B (82:04)

I remember. Yeah. And for everyone else, like, joining this spot in Nashville, it's a really cool place, but it's like a dinner.

A (82:13)

Dinner club. Supper club.

B (82:14)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (82:15)

Great shows. Yes.

B (82:17)

But, yeah, my. The last drink that I had was, like, March 17th of last year, and that was that we were going to see Jason as well at Pinnacle. And then the last toke of marijuana that I had was in April of that year, so of last year. But a lot of the recording and the rehearsing and the producing of the record was in this time of sobriety. And, God, I just, like. I just feel happier to be, like, people at the grocery store don't, like, annoy me anymore, you know, And I don't feel, like this weight. I just feel, like, a lot more open to the people around me. And I really do feel present, especially in moments and in places where there are drinking, there is drinking going on, and people like the night.

A (83:10)

The contrast is huge.

B (83:12)

Yes. The night of the release show, we all went out afterwards, and I didn't drink, and I felt incredible. You know, I was so proud of myself for that and the practice of that and you know, gaining trust within yourself to you know that you're going to be here for you and you're not going to run away from uncomfortable feelings. You're going to listen to yourself and, and like one of the another thing that came out for me and with the cards was you need to this voice in your head, you need to stop managing it and start listening to it. And when instead of saying like, stop thinking like this, be like, I hear you, you, I'm here.

A (83:58)

You know, what do you need to tell me?

B (83:59)

Yeah. And walk with it as this friend. Even though they're like sometimes like are you really my friend though? Because you're saying a lot of things that are like not easy to hear.

A (84:11)

I don't like that. I'm actually gonna share a story with you. I wasn't planning on sharing this today, but it's so perfect. I'm gonna little woo woo on you people.

B (84:19)

So I'm broken.

A (84:21)

So I've worked with psilocybin for several years and it actually, I credit it with curing my clinical depression and removing me from suicidal ideation and things like that. But I've been doing a lot of. And part of what led me to being like, I want to, at least I want to stay sober for a year and see what that looks like was working, doing this work because I kept getting deeper and deeper. But there was always this place inside me where I knew there was so much pain and so much hurt and I couldn't get to it. Every time I would get close to it, there was a part of me that I call the protector that would throw me right back out. You have no access here. And then those feelings, I would cope in some way. Whether that was when I was younger, it was like over exercising turned into like a work addiction and then using alcohol and so I was working with some people really trying to cause it was causing. I was having these grief work that was causing me physical distress. Like I would feel like I needed to throw up and I would just. I felt awful. So I just did 5 Meo DMT which is so. It's called Bofu. It's toad venom.

B (85:28)

Okay.

A (85:29)

And it is the.

B (85:30)

That's some witchy shit, right?

A (85:32)

It's some wishy. But it's the chemical that's released when we die.

B (85:35)

Oh yeah.

A (85:36)

And it's, it's very short acting. And if any of you are out there that listen to Time Suck with Dan Cummins, you've heard him talk about, about all of these different things. And I ended up Meeting with some teachers and told them. I'm like, this is my experience. I have these things I can't access that I know is harming me. I don't know how to get that protector turned down enough to let go. And so I did this session. It was about three hours long total. And a lot of it's the breath work. You're doing so much breath work while you're doing it. First of all, not afraid of dying? Absolutely not. I'm like, if this. Okay, this is cool, love this. Love this journey. For me, it was such a strange feeling, especially at the peak of the session. But I was able to go into this place inside myself where I saw, like, physical representations of all this hurt that had just sat there and had just gotten stagnant. And it was really about moving it, getting it out. I've got to get rid of this. But there was kind of this. I met this protector, and she wouldn't say anything to me. She wouldn't speak. And after the session, and I worked through so much stuff, especially with my ex fiance, and a lot of the abuse I grew up with in childhood and in relationships. And I kept trying to kind of reach her. After the session, I was like, who are you? Like, where did you come from? How long have you been fighting for me? And I knew she was a portion of me that I just stopped listening to. And I was sitting with my girlfriends telling them about this because they're all girlfriends I met within this type of work. And when I chose to, like, sit and listen for her, she told me her name. And I was like, oh. Cause I was talking about her to my friends, and I'm like, I don't know who she is. I don't. And I just froze. I was like, oh, her name's Eve. And she's been down there doing that a long time, trying to protect me from myself. And, like, having this moment of. And then it literally, it was like a dam broke. And I understood that, like, for so many years, because of the way that I grew up, I had not allowed myself to feel anything. I didn't allow. I didn't cry for nine years when I was a teenager. Like, I didn't allow myself tears. I didn't allow myself mourning. It didn't matter if it was a breakup or somebody dying. Like, and even when my dad died, it was like bottling up the grief. And you have to go to work and you have to function and you have to pay your bills. And the. It was just this moment of realizing that for the majority of my life, I had never allowed those feelings to flow, and I had allowed all of that pain to become stagnant. And that's when it really dropped in for me that the alcohol was what was keeping the dam up for you. So you've got to be ready to tear the dam down and let this move. And it had translated over into my singing. Cause I, like, was doing so well vocally for the longest time. And then I started getting all this tension, all these weird issues that I couldn't figure out where they were coming from.

B (88:34)

Was this in. Is this recent? Ish.

A (88:38)

Recent ish. Like, the last two years, Two and a half years.

B (88:40)

Okay. Because you may have, like, shared a little bit. Maybe not that story, but, like. And maybe you were just sick from something, but you were, like, talking about, like, dealing with vocal things. And that may have. That's interesting.

A (88:55)

And I had developed two cysts on my vocal cords from it, from all the force because of pushing so hard. And as I go through this work and I, like, go through this experience and really cut back on the alcohol, get out of the gig scene. And honestly, it was kind of at a point where I was like, I don't think my voice is ever gonna come back the way that it was.

B (89:12)

Yeah.

A (89:13)

But I also recognized that it was directly connected to me, not, like, allowing myself to speak and feel like, to actually speak my mind, and. But then I went and had a vocal scope last month, and one of the cysts is totally gone. The other one. And these things are not supposed to heal. Like, the doctor had told me, these will never go away. You're gonna have them forever. The other one is almost gone. And they're like, whatever it is that you're doing, we don't know what you're doing, but you're, like, in the clear. But so much of it was just holding. Holding all this grief. And then whenever things would become too stressful, drinking enough to push it back down. Cause I was never getting drunk. And that's how I justified it, was like, well, I'm not getting drunk. I'm not partying. But I realize now that what I was doing was I was pushing that voice and those feelings back down. And now I had to restart my year of sobriety, because I hit that point over this last weekend where there was this major stressor where I caved to it, and I was like, now I'm kind of restarting, and I'm like, okay, I have to restart this and realize what was it in that moment that I was running from. What was it in that moment that I couldn't handle anymore.

B (90:16)

Exactly.

A (90:17)

And it's been such a learning experience where it really feels like. It feels like taking the mask off. It feels like kind of that moment. I call it everyone's deconstruction moment. That moment where you realize, oh, like, something's wrong here. And it was. It was very similar to having that moment again, removing it and having that experience and realizing that there were parts of myself that I don't know because I haven't allowed myself to know because I've been too busy performing, like, literally and figuratively.

B (90:48)

Yeah, that's insane.

A (90:51)

Yeah, it's insane. And the ceremony that I did with that was extremely intense. I was like, man, I understand now why practitioners are really careful with who does those ceremonies, because if you're not mentally prepared for that shit, it will make you feel like you're insane or that you died.

B (91:10)

I mean. Yeah, it's insane. Ancient sacred technology. Yes. That stuff.

A (91:15)

And sacred, sacred medicine and. But it's been interesting. And I've actually started journaling in a different way because I did the same thing growing up in church. Like, I got a journal, and I'm gonna have my prayer journal, and I've got this, you know, and so I hated it because it was always that. It was like a job that you have to do. So now it's been more journaling about, like, yes, what's going on during the day. But, like, how am I feeling? What have I noticed in my body? You know? Because there's this. This autonomy that shows up for you when you unplug from these systems that, like, prescribe your life.

B (91:46)

Yeah.

A (91:47)

And learning that autonomy is, like, such a journey.

B (91:50)

Yeah.

A (91:51)

Such a journey. And I. I love hearing the timing of your EP because I feel. I feel like. Because even listening at the performance at the release show, when I was there, hearing, I could just not only identify it with, but with it, but hear some of your journey and some of your paths in it, which was really, really cool because it was the first time I got to hear. I had heard one, like, maybe one of your original songs before, but I hadn't heard them in bulk.

B (92:15)

Yeah.

A (92:15)

And what is your favorite song on the ep? I'm sure everybody asks you that. You're like, but which one is it?

B (92:22)

Just today.

A (92:22)

Which one is it today?

B (92:23)

Today, Today. My favorite song, Higher will always be special to me. Yeah. It just. Cause it really. A lot of what this project is about is about redemption.

A (92:37)

Right.

B (92:37)

Even you know, the song, like, Give Me youe Love, which is like, basically just a love song, you know, but it's like, you know, to be able to, like, claim that love and to give that love to yourself, which is the greatest love of all, you know.

A (92:53)

The only person that's going to be with you for sure until you die is you.

B (92:57)

Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, I know. And I'm happy to be with myself. I think that's another part of this journey with sobriety, is that, like, I'm excited to see who I am continually, you know, and to change and to, like, you know, like, with journaling. It's funny, I went back and I have my journals. I started journaling in fourth grade, and I have all my journals and stuff. And I. On my. All my close friends on Instagram, I posted this. This, right? Dude, I was like, dear Jesus, is not fair that all my friends have big boobs and I don't. And I'm literally like, God, I beg of you, please give me big boobs. And then, like, the next. The next page is like, this drawing of, like, basically the hand of Jesus with a hole in it, and it's like, your life sacrificed for sin. And I was obsessed with. I'm like, hard pivoting right now, but I was obsessed with Rachel, who was killed in the Columbine shooting.

A (94:07)

Oh, yeah, Rachel Scott.

B (94:08)

Rachel Scott, yes. In her book Rachel's Tears. I read that, and I. I thought that being a martyr for God was going to be way more of a thing in life.

A (94:18)

I thought that being a Martyr was, like, 100 gonna happen at some point.

B (94:22)

Yeah.

A (94:22)

I also thought that I would catch on fire at some point.

B (94:26)

Right.

A (94:26)

Start, drop and roll.

B (94:27)

You'd meet quicksand or quicksand. Those two.

A (94:30)

I also. And to be honest, my greatest disappointment in adulthood is that I thought that there would be significantly less panic and more discos. But that is not.

B (94:39)

That has not worked out, but I remember.

A (94:42)

So, like, because for me, like, it was the Cassie Bernal story, and she said yes, which we've covered it here on the show. Is that, like, none of that happened, like, with her. But yeah, like, I really thought that, like, I would, like, fantasize about it at night if, like, me too, would I be brave enough, you know, at gunpoint to say I believed in God? Which is insane when you're that age. When you're like, 8, 9 years old, like, fantasizing about that is nuts.

B (95:07)

Is wild.

A (95:09)

Really uncomfortable.

B (95:09)

I mean, yeah. And, yeah, I can look at that now and be like, Jesus Christ. But, like, Yeah, I just think. But like, looking at those. Those diaries, I'm like, God, this kid really wanted again, wanted to be good enough and wanted to be useful and was like, yearning from God to God. Like, like, please, like, the constant management of your sin was just. You're like, okay, I repented today, but I just did this thing and I kind of feel like I need to, like, repent again. And like. But does that count? Like, if I was. But I was baptized. What about saved? Once saved, always saved. You know, like God, just the mental gymnastics. You have to jump just to, like, feel okay. And I think that's why it's like, there is that mental sort of bypassing that has to happen because it's like, there's a lot going on here that, that. That are contradict each other. Anyway, it's been interesting going through those journals, but yeah, the space pro that you give yourself when you do that, when you journal. Sometimes I'll write and I'll. I'll stop and I'll be like. And I'll let the next sort of thought or feeling come to me and I'll. And almost like an answer to my question, like. And it's this conversation that you're having with yourself, you know, And I have found that belief in myself and trust in myself is belief in God and belief and trust in this thing. It's like, it's this.

A (96:37)

It's a connection.

B (96:38)

It is such a connection. And, you know, I also did the Artist Way last year.

A (96:44)

I love the Artist's Way.

B (96:45)

Yeah.

A (96:45)

I just gifted it to my brother because he's in this kind of major transition. Space. Space in his life. And that book has changed my life. And every time I'm going through major transit transitions, I go back through it. And so if you're interested in the book, it's Artist Way by Julia Cameron. Really. And it doesn't matter if you're not an artist. It's for everyone.

B (97:02)

Yeah.

A (97:03)

Really, really transformative. And I think one of the things about. Because you're talking about, you know, like, church, how we grew up, and I wish I had my old journals. I had. Because I used to keep a regular journal and I would keep a dream journal because I've always been a very active dreamer. So I would just write down my dreams, but I got rid of them when I. When I got older. And then I didn't journal for like 10 years because I was so done with the checklist. Yes. But I feel like the way that we grew up, we don't get to know ourselves. It's, it's. There's so much going on that you have to do that you're worried about and preoccupied with.

B (97:30)

Yeah.

A (97:30)

That you never have those quiet moments of just figuring yourself out.

B (97:34)

Yeah.

A (97:34)

And I think that that's why it typically happens in our 20s and 30s when we're kind of out of the more high control environment because it's no longer about. Well, I have to check these 37 boxes before I can go to bed tonight. Otherwise I'm not saved and I'm going to hell.

B (97:47)

Yeah.

A (97:48)

Which is so like it's. So I think about it and it makes me sad to like think about me as a 5 year old not being able to sleep because I'm afraid of hell. I like that's rough.

B (98:00)

That's rough. And to you know, also have to do this legwork internally to like, you know, like, like why my, my dad for instance, like growing up, I didn't, he just like didn't know how to have a daughter. You know.

A (98:18)

I relate to that.

B (98:19)

Yeah. Coached all my ball teams, like literally was there, always there. But the disconnect. Didn't know how to communicate to me. And I had and would just do things, you know, that I then had to be like, I had to do the mental justifying in my mind as to like why he did that, you know, and when he, you know, I mean my dad, I love my dad. Obviously I have a greatest relationship with him now, but like when he should have been like, hey, I, I had a really rough day today, you know, like. And I blew off the handle a little bit, you know, and then you had to be at the receiving end of that instead. And then. But I internalized all of that.

A (99:07)

Oh, it's my fault.

B (99:08)

I did something.

A (99:08)

I have to fix it.

B (99:09)

Yeah. Fix it again. And that's the people pleasing aspect of it. That's the parentification of daughters mainly in families, you know, and it all just goes back into the same thing that then the church is like, you know, really upholds a lot of that. Yeah.

A (99:25)

Because. Well it's, it's the structure by which it functions.

B (99:28)

Yeah.

A (99:29)

Right. Because if it. There has to be, you know, and it's part of the reason for the, the teachings on submission is that without that hierarchy, the church can't function in the form that it exists now.

B (99:39)

Yeah.

A (99:40)

And so anything that's a threat to the hierarchy is a problem. And one of the things as you've gone through this journey, like deconstruction, finding yourself even all the way into the Witchy and the Woo Woo. What are like maybe the top three books that really changed your mind on yourself or life? What were the kind of. The top three that you can think of that were like. That changed something for me.

B (100:05)

Yeah. Oh, so glad you asked that. I read All About Love by Bill Hooks. God. That really, honestly, what happened is. Was the most recent presidential election. Yep. I just was like, God, there's got to be a better way. Yeah. I can't. Like, which there's a time and place to, like, be in it and then there's a time place to sort of be like. I gotta like, get my mind and spirit correct. Yes.

A (100:37)

Yeah.

B (100:39)

And I was like, really looking for something to stick my teeth in spiritually. And I read all about love and just her, the way that she speaks, not just how she writes, but how she literally speaks is so comforting. And I just appreciated her, you know, that love. Love really is an action. And she has this definition for love in the book. And it's like, love is the will to extend yourself. God, I'm gonna butcher this. It's so good.

A (101:15)

Let me see if I can pull it up.

B (101:16)

Yeah, please do.

A (101:18)

While you're having that chat, we'll. We'll bring the phone into the frame.

B (101:20)

Yeah, yeah. But also how she frames love with these. Almost like there's like these traits that love has. So, like, you can have lots of care but not have respect.

A (101:32)

Yeah.

B (101:33)

You know, and. Or you can have, you know, like, she just put it in this way that was like, damn, that's so real. You know, like, you can have one thing but not have the other part of love. And that's why you have this hole in you. And you're like, but I was cared for and I got everything I needed. And so it's like, well, you know, you didn't get this, but did you? But did you?

A (101:52)

It has here. The definition is the will to extend oneself for the purpose of nurturing one's own and another's spiritual growth.

B (102:01)

Yes.

A (102:02)

That's a great definition.

B (102:03)

Isn't that so good? Yeah, I. Yeah. Like the will to extend it into the world. You know, like when I, you know, in. In love. I don't know. Love gets this rap too. That's like. Like it's. I don't know, like that it's complicated or that it can be complicated and gets used so flippantly out in the world. But love is really such a powerful thing that I myself am not. You know, I don't fully grasp, but I just. I know I Know when I feel it deeply and when I'm like, when I do something that's like, man, I was really there for someone and they felt. Felt sane.

A (102:44)

There's a difference in the way that that feels and the humanity that it creates.

B (102:47)

Yeah.

A (102:48)

When, like, love shows up and enters the chat.

B (102:51)

Yeah.

A (102:51)

And it kind of does. It kind of becomes this, like, you know, song trope. Or it becomes, you know, narrowed to romantic love, but it's really, like, so much bigger than that. And I think anyone who sits down and, like, remembers when they've encountered real love that it is something that's truly different and truly the most powerful thing that you can walk into. And it's in a world that we live in right now. It's really important to remember that.

B (103:18)

Yeah. Yeah, it is tough. But another book that I read, what was it? Well, that Eve book, honestly, I got that one on tour with Postmodern Jukebox. And what that did for me was it grounded me in this. This sense of, like, wow, we've really been here for a long time. And, you know, everything that I feel is my life and that I love and cherish so much. You know, at one point I was just like, this. Not me. But our ancestors were just these little things that, like, could barely see. Yeah. You know, like. And then eventually they looked up and they saw the trees and, you know, but specifically, like, with the female body, you know, like, mothers. The idea of a mother and a womb. Like, and that goes back to, again, Women who Run With Wolves. Those two things, those three books, all about love. Bell hooks, Eve, how the female body drove 200 million years of human Evolution, and Women who Run with Wolves. Those three books, like, like, that combo, dude, is wild.

A (104:36)

Crack some things open.

B (104:37)

Crack some things. Seriously.

A (104:39)

And my last question for today is being where you are now in, like, kind of like this self knowing, self healing, this. I call it expansion. Like, because it is like you're able to be curious and experience the world. If you could go back to your old self, and maybe it's as a child growing up in that environment, or maybe that moment where the church pulled the rug out from under your feet because you wouldn't do what they wanted, what do you think is the most. What would you want to say to yourself back then?

B (105:10)

It's not your responsibility. You didn't. There was so much that you took on that you had to take on. You felt like you had to. That was not yours to carry. Truthfully, my mom and dad's pain. Yeah, I. I stressed about My parents relationship. Not even because it was bad or that there was real issues, even though there were. But I would literally pray for my parents and I would be so invested in their lives. It's like, you're a child, girl.

A (105:44)

Took on a lot.

B (105:45)

Yeah, I would. I would be so overly concerned with the souls of my friends. You know, I'm like, they're eternal.

A (105:53)

Like, it's your job to save them.

B (105:54)

Yes.

A (105:55)

And so if you don't save them, their blood's on your hands, girl.

B (105:58)

I mean, yeah. Like this child just like. I mean, my family too. I mean, my mom, my grandmother, I remember. I'll never forget it. Called me one night, called my mother, and she was like, brittany, my cousin, is she like, is having this, like, she's having so much fear and anxiety right now for some reason. Can Kendall come over and pray for Brittany? You know, and I'm. I'm literally like 6 years old and my aunt and my grandmother and my cousin and all these people. And in my memory, like, my parents weren't even in the room. They just dropped me off and I went in as this like 6 year old with my family basically looking at me like I'm the answer to their problem or to what's going on for them. And I don't know why. I've always sort of been that way spiritually, I guess. Like, I don't claim this. It's just like life has shown me that, like with my family specifically, like, I'm like this.

A (107:01)

The mast of the ship.

B (107:02)

Yeah. And just the, you know, and me having to work through that spiritually with her and literally sitting there and leading a prayer at 6 years old, like, devil, get out of this house. You know, like, again, like, I'm like, wow, that's boss, you know, for a six year old. But at the same time, that's not your responsibility.

A (107:26)

Yeah.

B (107:26)

Not your responsibility.

A (107:28)

How does it feel to not carry that anymore?

B (107:34)

It feels. It feels like a whole world of opportunity has opened up to me and that I can really get down to brass tacks as to like, who I am. That this is. At the end of the day, some of this was just like, coping mechanisms that I had to develop. And that's not who you are. Yeah. So I'm like, excited. I'm excited creatively. I'm excited to like, dive into that with songwriting and, and to write with other women and to work with people that I feel like, aligned with, you know, like, it just like. And to not have this, like, defense up.

A (108:15)

Yep.

B (108:16)

You know, and just to be.

A (108:18)

Just be. And just like. And ultimately, like, that's what creation is. It's like allowing something to flow, not forcing it to flow because it just doesn't work the same.

B (108:30)

Yeah.

A (108:30)

And I think that's one of the things about being women in creative spaces is that being is so powerful. It is when we can grab it.

B (108:39)

Yeah.

A (108:40)

And my very last question. Who are your favorite musical inspirations? Ooh, I wasn't gonna ask you your favorite album. Cause that's never a fair question. I'm like, what do you mean? Like today.

B (108:51)

Today what?

A (108:52)

My favorite album right now.

B (108:53)

Addison Rae. Yeah. No. My first real musical influence was Kelly Clarkson on American Idol.

A (109:01)

Amazing show.

B (109:02)

Yes, I know. And I voted legitimately for her, like, so much. I'm like, she won because of me. I. No, she. But when she did A Natural Woman, I always say this. I always tell this story. But when she did A Natural Woman, I was like, oh, my God. I didn't realize that. That this was in somebody like, you could sing like this.

A (109:26)

Goosebumps. Because I remember that performance. Oh, my God.

B (109:29)

And she talks about that performance. Like, she was like. That's when I was like, oh, I'm here to win. And in early recordings, I even sound like Kelly Clarkson. But then I learned, you know, I was like, oh, Aretha Franklin sings that song. Oh, that was written by Carole King, you know, so that trifecta was really a. You, like, very specific and didn't happen all at the same time. But, you know, as I got older, I was like, wow. Like that song, even though it's huge and we all like, it's like, soundtrack of our lives, you know, it's in the book. That specific memory for me was very transformative.

A (110:07)

I love that. I love that. Thank you for coming on the show.

B (110:10)

Thank you for having me.

A (110:11)

To everyone listening, please go listen to her ep, self titled. It's Kindle Wild. K Y N D L E W Y L D E. You can thank me later. I do accept gifts and snacks and coffee. Thank you. I just really appreciate that story. Like, it's just. It's so real and it's so tangible.

B (110:27)

Yeah.

A (110:28)

And obviously I resonate a lot with it. Not just from deconstruction, but music. Just so appreciate you. And to everyone who's. Who's listening, because we have a wide range of listeners, Just ask the questions. My challenge is always at the end of these shows is to just be curious to ask the questions, reach into the world, see what comes back to you. Because faith requires doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty. And there's nothing wrong with asking the questions and learning more. And it's also totally okay to change our minds when we come in contact with new information. Learn what you like. Learn what that inner voice sounds like for you, and experience the freedom that can come with that. And I will see you next week on Flipping Tables.