Flipping Tables with Monte Mader
EPISODE SUMMARY: “Meeting the Enemy with Deeyah Khan”
Date: April 6, 2026
Guest: Deeyah Khan, BAFTA and Emmy-winning documentary filmmaker

Episode Overview

In this powerful episode, host Monte Mader, a former alt-right evangelical, interviews acclaimed filmmaker and activist Deeyah Khan. Together, they explore the roots of extremism, the dynamics of radicalization, and the extraordinary power of human connection and dignity. Through personal stories and reflections on Khan’s groundbreaking documentary Meeting the Enemy, they examine how fractured communities and unmet needs for belonging have led individuals toward violence and hate—and how moments of empathy and solidarity can create unexpected pathways out.

Key Discussion Points

The Risks and Costs of Speaking Out (03:26–08:07)

• Deeyah recounts returning to Norway after security concerns in the US due to her activism and visibility as a Muslim, immigrant filmmaker critical of Trump and extremism.
• “You need to take your babies and leave.” — Advice from a retired US general (05:24)
• A moving discussion about the trauma and “everyday" risks imposed by current political realities, especially for immigrants and people of color.

Early Experiences: Growing Up as ‘The Other’ (09:11–12:53)

• Deeyah shares stories of alienation in Norway as a child of Pakistani/Afghan heritage.
  • “I was 12 years old … had a grown man spit in my face and told me I was a black bitch and needed to go back home.” (09:47)
• Early activism and adopting a "punch a Nazi” mindset—eventually realizing confrontational activism was cathartic but rarely transformative.
• Entered filmmaking not from neutrality, but as an activist aiming to humanize, not just document.

Understanding Radicalization: Parallels Across Extremes (12:53–19:54)

• Realization: The stories of jihadi recruits and white supremacists have surprising psychological parallels—alienation, not feeling “enough,” searching for home.
• “What separates us is who shows up when we are at our most broken... For me, it was my mother. For them, it was a recruiter.” (18:33)
• The power of connection: Both host and guest reflect on key moments where kindness and support from unexpected sources redirected their own lives away from destructive paths (20:07–22:56).

Society’s Failure, Extremists’ Opportunity (23:08–26:19)

• Deeyah: “These groups are just filling a need... We’re not able to meet the needs of our young people. We’re not there as a society.” (23:08)
• Recruiters invest enormous time and care into vulnerable kids—contrasted with performative, ineffective de-radicalization programs from authorities.

The Gendered Roots of Extremism and ‘Manosphere’ Culture (26:19–32:07)

• Monte and Deeyah discuss the role of the manosphere, red pill movements, and the appeal of far-right figures for young men grappling with identity and belonging.
  • “Had there been community in place to support these young men... it would have been far more difficult to radicalize them into these ideologies.” — Monte (28:07)
  • “The common thread... in all the various extremist movements... is this complete focus on women and this desire to want to shift the hierarchy back.” — Deeyah (29:22)
• The societal rush for progress left many men (especially working-class white men) feeling displaced, fueling resentment manipulated by extremist leaders.

Humanizing the ‘Enemy’: The Making of Meeting the Enemy (33:48–52:31)

• After a viral BBC interview drew death threats, Deeyah resolved not to hide, but to meet her would-be enemies face to face. (36:47)
  • “I can try to see if I can seek some of these people out and see if any of them would be willing to sit with me... if we’re able to recognize each other as human beings.” (38:00)
• Surreal and dangerous moments at Charlottesville—witnessing the violence and deep predatory cynicism of organized hate groups.
  • “Jeff said... ‘I hate the vision of the world that you stand for... but I do respect that you are very sincere.’” (42:18)
• Stories of deeply personal, uncomfortable exchanges—sometimes leading to moments of connection, other times not.

From Hate Toward Change: Cracks in the Facade (56:22–69:16)

• The most fervent extremists Deeyah interviewed were motivated by pain, broken homes, and newfound power in making others afraid.
  • “I’m a broken human being. I feared everything... and now this guy feared me, and I loved it.” — Frank Meehan (56:22)
• A key differentiator between “elite” racists like Richard Spencer (who performed belief for an audience) and genuinely alienated blue-collar men searching for belonging.
• What leads former extremists to leave?
  • “The hypocrisy in their own movement” and “a relationship with someone they've dehumanized who treats them as human” are pivotal openings for change (65:51).
• Deeyah shares how dignifying treatment from supposed “enemies” (like an older Black McDonald’s worker or a Jewish employer) catalyzed profound transformation for men like Arno Michaelis and Frank Meehan (65:02–87:10).

Practicing Radical Dignity (74:44–91:29)

• Deeyah’s central ethos: “No matter what, I refuse to remove somebody’s dignity from any interaction that we’re having... I'm not trying to rescue their humanity. I’m trying to hold on to mine.” (74:44)
• True values are only tested when extended toward those we dislike or hate.
  • “We have to resist the urge to become like them... Being open, being willing to acknowledge that people are people... We have to have space for people to change their mind, to come back.” (77:12)
• Change does not come through argument or correction, but through listening, allowing people to feel heard, and modeling grace.

Practical Steps for Listeners (93:16–99:03)

• Instead of correcting or debating, invite: “Can you tell me more about that?” Create a space for people to unpick their own arguments and reveal their humanity.
• We all do “our little part”—in our networks, communities, and moments—with whatever we can bear.
• The most radical act is to refuse to give up on people, even when they have given up on us or themselves.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “What separates us is, when we are at our most broken, who shows up is the defining thing.” – Deeyah Khan (18:33)
• “If anything, the cycle has to stop… and as satisfying as it is to condemn people like that… it doesn’t, we don’t get to somewhere different.” – Deeyah Khan (12:27)
• “I didn’t set out to rescue their humanity. I’m trying to hold on to mine.” – Deeyah Khan (74:44)
• “We are in this together and things are broken… so we have to be there for each other. And it’s down to us now.” – Deeyah Khan (83:54)
• “If you throw him out, you are throwing him farther into the arms of that stuff. He really needs this. This will save his life.” – Deeyah, on writing a letter on behalf of a former extremist (87:12)
• “If you want people to hear you, this [raised, argumentative] doesn’t work.” – Deeyah (93:16)
• “I will not allow myself to be in this position or this place [of dehumanizing others]. I will not become like that.” – Deeyah Khan (99:03)

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Leaving the US and risks for activists (03:26–08:07)
• Childhood alienation, activism roots (09:11–12:53)
• How extremists and activists start with the same wounds (15:26–19:54)
• Recruiters vs. real community—how hate fills the void (23:08–26:19)
• Why the manosphere & misogyny flourish among lost men (26:19–32:07)
• Making Meeting the Enemy: From death threats to dialogue (36:47–52:31)
• Stories of former extremists’ turning points (56:22–69:16)
• Practicing dignity—even when it’s not reciprocated (74:44–91:29)
• Actionable advice: Listening over argument (93:16–99:03)
• Where to watch Deeyah’s films and final thanks (99:44–101:41)

Final Reflection

The episode closes with both Monte and Deeyah urging listeners to “love somebody a little bit more today,” especially those who may seem hardest to love. The conversation is a masterclass in radical empathy and maintaining one’s own humanity in the fight against dehumanization. Through personal narrative, vulnerable honesty, and practical wisdom, listeners are left with profound hope—and a challenge to act.

Find Deeyah Khan

• Instagram: @deeyahkhan
• Films (available free globally): Deeyah Khan on YouTube

“The only way that we get out of this mess is by linking arms with each other and making our way out.” – Monte Mader (101:41)

Note: Timestamps above are provided for listeners who wish to jump to specific segments.