B (3:15)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm a huge, huge fan of you and who you are and how you speak and what you speak about. So it's a pleasure to be here.

A (3:26)

And we are on this conversation with you being in Norway, when I originally contacted you, you had moved here and we were talking just before recording about you ended up leaving the US can you talk about that a little bit, how you're in Norway now?

B (3:40)

Yeah. So I have lived and worked in the US for about eight to ten years on and off I worked in the US So because of the films, I was in the uk but then I was doing so many US films that traveling back and forth just became really hard. So I decided to move there and just work from there. And so I've done the work on a work visa. That's a really hard visa to get. And it renews every three years. And this last summer it was about to renew again. And so my lawyer, immigration lawyer in the U.S. he calls me on a Friday at 11:00 clock at night and he goes, hey, listen, Dia, I was about to send in your application, but I'm not going to do it because he said, it just occurred to me that if I send in the application, I'm flagging you and I'm bringing you to the attention of DHS and people that you should not be the focus of. And he said, so I'm not going to send it. And he said, look, if you didn't have small kids, I would say take the chance and see what happens. He said, but because you've got small kids, he said, this is not the time to do this. So I hung up and was like, okay, this is. I'm not going to do that. Whatever. He said, I'm not going to do that because, I mean, I was about to start another film. I mean, I've got kids in school. Like, it's, you know, I started a life there. And so I started calling lots of activists, lots of friends, other, other lawyers as well, even international lawyers, and also spoke with a general, a military general who's retired, and asked all of them to give me a different answer. And every single one of them, without fail, said, you have to do what he says, what he's saying is correct and you've got to go. And the general said to me, he said, look, Dia, I apologize to you and I apologize to you on behalf of America. And he said, we're in a bind right now. And he said, but we will find a way through. And he said, but while we do that, you need to leave. His words were, you need to take your babies and leave. And he said. And I said to him, I said, yeah, but look, I want to be helpful. I want to be here while this is happening. I don't want to leave. I want to be a part of whatever the response needs to be. And he said, look, you're much more used to us on the outside than you will be locked up somewhere or deported to some country that you can't figure out where you are. And he said, so just right now, go. And the last few months I was in the US I had very strict instructions from my lawyer to carry my papers and my passport on me at all times. Because he said, look, if you're walking and picking up your child in school, or if you're just picking up milk or whatever, because they just put out ice. And also the National Guard, I was in Washington, D.C. okay, at the time, they just started. And he said, if you get stopped, you need to have your papers on you no matter what. And his concern, the lawyer's biggest concern, he said, look, I have children, too. And he said, because your kids are so young, he said, if anything was to happen to you in front of your eight year old, he said, she will never recover from it. He said, we can get you out, most likely, but she will never recover. And he said, you don't do that to your child.

A (6:56)

Yeah, and what an awful thing, you know, and this is, I mean, all of last year, just even the thought that I'm reading headlines or I'm hearing Kristi Noem say things like, oh, you need to just carry your papers, carry your papers.

B (7:09)

I mean, what kind of society is that? It's just right.

A (7:12)

And it escalated so quickly it really did.

B (7:16)

And my lawyer has not only turned out to be correct, but it's beyond what he thought. You know, it's so much worse. So it's, I mean, none of us could have imagined this. None of us could have predicted any of this. And also, you know, because the films that I made, you know, I documented Trump's first term and a lot of the kind of more contentious issues that he stands for, I've been very critical of. And that was the other reason, and the fact that I'm Muslim and, you know, I'm an immigrant, I'm kind of, I tick a lot of boxes. And he said, you just, you're just not the right person right now to be doing this, especially with children. And it's devastating. Yeah, but it's devastating. I mean, it really. I miss it. And I, every day I read the news and every day, I know a lot of Americans want to leave, but every day I wish I was there because I wish I could, you know, help in some way.

A (8:07)

Yeah, and I've struggled with that feeling. You know, I live in Tennessee and it's very, very conservative and we have a red super majority. There's a lot of just insane laws being pushed through the legislature right now. And I wrestle with wanting to leave and having. But then on the flip side of that coin, you know, I, on, in contrast to you, I am a single white woman that doesn't have children. And so I was like, if anyone's going to be here calling attention to something or doing anything, it might as well be me because I don't have the 8 year old that would be traumatized seeing me arrested or something like that. And you have, you know, you've done work on white supremacy, abortion and women's rights, domestic violence. You have met with, I mean, a spectrum of extremists and really the core of your work. And I discovered you through your film Meeting the Enemy, which I wanna dive into. But I would love to talk about your childhood and what really led you to be this type of filmmaker, this type of, I wanna sit in the room with these people and find out what's going on.

B (9:11)

So, you know, I grew up in Norway and I was very often, if not always the kind of the dark skinned, strange looking child in the sea of, you know, I always say, kind of the blonde and blue eyed people. So I was always very aware of the fact that I was different and was always reminded or often reminded that, you know, maybe I wasn't welcome, maybe I wasn't, maybe I wasn't enough the way that I was and that, you know, I remember even being a child and grownups asking, you know, so, so when are you going to go back, you know, from where you came from? And I was like, well, I was born here. You so is from here, guys. And I mean, I remember, I mean, I think I was. I think I was 12 years old and I had a. Had a grown man, like, spit in my face and told me I was a black bitch and needed to go back home, wherever I came from and fuck off and all this stuff. And I remember just being horrified. Like, I mean, I couldn't even wipe off the spit. I was so shocked. So, I mean, so I was very. My childhood, I knew that differences and us not being able to manage whatever our differences are can have incredibly severe consequences. Yeah, and, and yes, we have differences, but we're going to have to figure out how to live with them still. We still have to coexist. So I became involved in activism quite early in life. Like, I used to go to anti fascist protests when I was younger. I used to skip school and go to these things and, you know, would spit at people, would yell at people, would shout at people. You know, I was very much kind of like, punch a Nazi kind of mindset.

A (10:56)

I resonate with that at times. I have my moments.

B (10:59)

I still have my moments too. But, you know, as satisfying as that was and a good, as good as that felt, it never accomplished anything. And I remember, you know, most of my childhood, my dad always saying that, you know, all this racism stuff, you know, you just have to give it time. You know, with time it will get better. And it just never did. And not only did it not, you know, now we're in, you know, the reverse gear. So I came to film, really. I don't come from film school, I don't come from a film family. I don't come, you know, I didn't know anybody. I came at it from the point of view of an activist more than anything. And I don't hide that. I make that very clear in the films. You know, to me, everything that I've worked on is personal. And I don't claim to be neutral or a journalist or anything like that. So I just got to a point where I realized that I wasn't satisfied by how a lot of stories were being told and the kind of information that we were being given in our mainstream media. I felt it was very limited, very narrow, very dehumanizing in many ways. And I would walk away not having really understood what's actually behind some of the various violent behaviors that people have. Because the, the very first film that I did that looked at extremists was actually jihadis in the UK at the time, it was isis and it was this whole wave. People kept talking about foreign fighters, foreign fighters. Kids are being radicalized in Western countries and then going. I remember in the US as well, there were several kids that left, but all the coverage was just, they behead people, they do this and they do that, but it was never why and what's behind it and what kind of kids are going. And I was born and raised in these countries too. I pick up a camera, I'm not picking up a gun. So what's the difference?

A (12:53)

Yeah.

B (12:55)

So that was really the first time where I decided that I have to put all my own stuff, my own shit aside, my own fears and my own anger and disgust at guys like that and try to see if I can sit and get to maybe what the human being at the other end of this really is. So that's where it started. And it was a really difficult film for me to do. But it was also incredibly eye opening that I found myself recognizing myself in some of their experiences, which to me was horrifying. I mean, I've had death threats from Muslim extremists for most of my life. So I had a lot of baggage against them too. It wasn't just that they hated me because I'm a feminist and I do the things that I do. It was very mutual. And the fact that we ended up seeing each other, seeing ourselves in each other's lives was. Was really tough, but also really eye opening. So. So what does it come from? It comes from knowing what it feels like to be dehumanized. It comes from knowing what it feels like to be underestimated and discriminated against and getting to a point in my life where I don't want to do that to anybody else. Even if they deserve it. Yeah. But I'm not willing to do it to anybody else because at some point the cycle has to stop. The cycle has to be interrupted. And as self righteous and as good as it feels to condemn people like that and judge them and send them all off to hell and to, you know, whatever. It doesn't. We don't get to somewhere different. And we need to get to somewhere different.

A (14:36)

Yeah. And we're kind of desperate to get to somewhere different.

B (14:39)

Yeah.

A (14:40)

And when you and this, that resonated so much with me, where you're talking about seeing Yourself in their stories, in these jihadis, these extremists. And how did you, what emotions and how did you reconcile? Because I feel this way when I see interviews with neo Nazi groups and with, because they will say, well, I go to church and the pastor says, and God says, and Jesus says, and it, it, there's something in me that it really enrages because it's like that's not like I love what Jesus taught, but yet you're claiming the same thing. So for you, how did that come up for you in those interviews? Being someone who's Muslim and looking at someone who has taken it so far to this extreme direction and twisted it, how did that come up for you emotionally and otherwise?

B (15:26)

It was very strange to hear them talking about compassion in one breath and then, you know, the violence in the very next moment and how violence is justified against your enemies. But for me, more than the religious aspect, it actually ended up being more this, this experience of being an immigrant child, being a dark skinned child in, you know, European countries and growing up sort of in this, in this squeeze between cultures. You know, I very much felt that, you know, my father's from Pakistan, my mother is Afghan, and I always felt like from their community I was never that enough, you know, and then from my country I felt like I was never Norwegian enough because I looked like this. So my gender and my skin color was always kind of held up as a wall or a weapon against me and also a limitation of what I could and couldn't be. So hearing their childhood experiences, their experiences as teenagers of how lost they felt and how they felt like they were never enough of anything. And then they found this third place that accepts them and says, actually with all of your flaws or all of your differences, as long as you are this one thing, which in their case, as long as you're a Muslim, it doesn't matter. You can be a convert, you can be white, blue, black, doesn't matter. You're one of us and we've got your back. And I remember speaking to. And so it's, I get it, I get that thing of wow, all this stuff that we all used to carry and then you found a home. We all always feel a bit ruthless and homeless because we're never accepted anywhere. It doesn't feel like we're accepted anywhere as we're growing up. And so for me, I found my home became activism and artistic or creative work, whereas for them it became violence and it became these groups. But what surprised me and what the feelings that came up for me was, wow, we all started at the same point. It's all the same stuff in us. But what separates us so what is it? Why do I pick up a camera and he picks up a gun or some sort of a weapon or he becomes the weapon? What's the difference? And that's bothered me for the longest time, and I finally realized after years and years of also filming other extremists, is that when we are at our most broken, who shows up is the defining thing, the defining act is that is who is willing to stand next to you. For me, I was lucky. It was my mother, it was other women, it was other activists, it was other people that wish me well, that were willing to stand in me, in my brokenness at the time and in my heartbreak and sorrow and all the stuff and just held that with me. Whereas with these kids, their brokenness or their sorrow or ache and pain that they were going through was turned, was weaponized, was taken and supported and loved and then turned into a weapon and then turn their anger, their feelings, their dislocation into, well, that's going to be your target. And so I remember one of the guys, one of the ex Jihadis, basically saying to me, he's like, look, I'd never experienced somebody putting their arm around me saying that, you know, we love you and we've got your back and you're good enough and you're one of us. And he's like, who would say no to. I mean, I get goosebumps still thinking about it. Who would say no to that?

A (19:21)

Especially when you've never had it.

B (19:24)

No. And we all crave it. And some people are lucky enough to have that in their lives. Very many people are not. So we all have these human needs that we need, that we have to have met, and it's just how we meet those needs. We will all find a place. So is it a place of destruction or is it a place of something constructive? So that was the separation, is a recruiter showed up for them and my mother showed up for me.

A (19:54)

Yeah.

B (19:54)

Or a teacher shows up for somebody else or a friend or a mentor or whatever, or youth work or something. So it's. So that's what splits us. The same anger, the same angst, the same that we both had.

A (20:07)

Yeah. And it's so, I mean, and again, I, I think through people that I grew up with, because I, you know, I grew up with people who have become very, very far right. And I, I know people who are or were part of extremist groups and Then I know wonderful activists, you know, on the other side. And I think about my life. And really around 22, 23, where things were shattering and falling apart. And then at 25, with my dad's death. And that's exactly it when you're in that space. And at 25, after my dad's death, I was struggling with alcoholism on top of all of the other crises of belief. And I happened to be in New York at the time. You know, I was fortunate enough to be able to live there and to make it and could afford it. And then it was these. This group of people, most of them co workers, that showed up around me. And they were from different countries, they were immigrants, and they were gay. And they were all these beautiful things that I had never experienced. And I had been told to demonize growing up, that it was the same thing. What do you need? I've got you.

B (21:10)

I've got you.

A (21:11)

And even, you know, when my dad died. So my dad died on a Thursday night. And I was supposed to train a client I worked with three times a week on Friday morning. And at first I canceled the session, but then I text him back and I said, if you want to come in, I'll come in. I can't sleep. I don't want to be in my house. I don't know what to do. So we went in and was working with him and talking to him about, how do I. I don't know how to get home. The flights are really expensive. Because I lived. I grew up in a really rural part of Wyoming, and flights were like $800,000. And I didn't have that just sitting around. And my client is this Jewish businessman again, someone demonized by so many people I grew up with. Not in my immediate family, but very close to our circle. And we finish our session. He leaves. I'm talking to other coworkers, getting my clients sorted, making sure that everything's taken care of for work. He comes, he walks back onto the gym floor with a wad of cash in his hand, hands me $800 in cash and says, make sure you get home safe. And changed my life. Like, I wouldn't have been able to get home from my dad's funeral. I didn't even own a car. Cause I was living in New York, and so that was my only way home. And then a few months later, when there was an issue in my apartment, the heat went out in the New York winter. This man and his wife let me live with them for four months, and to your point, had that pivoted differently, where would I have been? Because I was in the exact same moment of dealing with my own childhood, my own belief. I was angry. I was angry at God. I was angry at everyone. And had there been someone else, someone more nefarious that could have manipulated me being in pain or could have manipulated the addiction I developed after my dad's death, it could have been a totally different story.

B (22:56)

Exactly, Exactly.

A (22:58)

And there is something that's so deep, deeply human in all of the extremes that we're seeing right now.

B (23:08)

And to me, it says a lot more about us as a society in some ways than it says about those groups, because those groups are just filling a need, and then they're abusing and misusing that pain and as I say, turning it into weaponizing it. But it says something about us as a society that we're not able to meet the needs of our young people. We're not there there as a society. We don't have the systems and the structures and the. And the support mechanisms to be there for our young people. Right. When people go through these various crises, where are we?

A (23:43)

We don't have the.

B (23:45)

Exactly. So why are extremists there picking. Picking up our kids and picking up the pieces that. That we were a part of breaking? Really?

A (23:54)

Yeah.

B (23:54)

You know, so. So yes, they are to blame for a lot of stuff. Absolutely. But. But we are not free from responsibility either, because we need to also be stepping in to build community and to think about these very basic needs that we all have. Everybody needs a sense of belonging and purpose and acceptance and love and community. I mean, we all crave that. And I remember with the whole ISIS thing that was going on at the time, there was. The UK government was doing all this. We're doing de radicalization. It was just ridiculous. And then, you know, you have those types of kind of really crappy initiatives that they were taking. And then you had these recruiters that were 24, seven online working on one young person, finding out what they're interested in, finding out what they're struggling with, finding out what they love, what they hate, who they are, what they care about. And here you had some government, you know, de. Radicalizing whatever, you know, sitting there chatting on something for, you know, few, whatever, and then going and leaving. It's the amount of investment and time that these groups also put in to each individual. It's kind of magical to be on the receiving end of that. And some of the guys that I filmed with in the uk, they were talking about this old recruiter Because, I mean, these movements have been there for a long time. They didn't start with isis. And he was saying that his recruiter, he said he would check on me and make sure I got home okay. And I could talk to him about girlfriends. I could talk to him about stuff I was struggling with at school and stuff that I could never say to my father, I could never say to anybody else. And he made it okay for me to talk. And he said something really important. I thought he said, look, I joined this because I love that guy and because of the love that guy gave me like a father. My loyalty was to that, not to the faith, not to any of the causes that come later. But the loyalty and the love is for that one person. I'm willing to die for you. I'm willing to die for you. And then he turns it into a cause, he turns it into a bigger thing and politics and all of that. So there's something in that for us to learn us as wider society is what we do. How do we respond to all this stuff?

A (26:19)

Yeah. And where.

B (26:20)

Because now it's mainstream.

A (26:22)

Yes. It's the manosphere, the red pill, all of it. But even now, I grew up very far right, and my family was the kind of people that a lot of the comments you hear in neo Nazi groups, my family had a subtler version of that. But even in my family would never have tolerated ever, for any reason. Someone flying a swastika like that would have been a blow up. And. And to see that so mainstream. And in the south in 2024, here in Nashville, we had eight, I think eight separate Nazi marches through town. Neo Nazi groups, full flag swastikas, slogans, masks. And I remember walking out of my apartment as one walks by, and I was like, where do I live? How is this not. But I think, you know, I just did a debate at the Cambridge Union, and it was around feminism, and it's. Has it failed men? Was really the question. And one girl had a really good argument about how, especially in the early 2010s, with the rise of 4chan and these Internet groups where there wasn't space for young men to land when they're feeling afraid and they're feeling unsure and life seems uncertain and people can't afford to buy homes or they don't know if they can go to college, and instead of having a place to land, people they could talk to or movements that welcomed them that said, hey, we can make a better world. It was the Andrew Tate's of the world. And it was the, you know, Jordan Petersons and all these people saying this is what being a real man looks like. A bunch of young men searching for what? What does masculinity mean in the new economy where one salary isn't enough to raise a family anymore? What does that mean? And these men gave them that definition and then capitalized on them financially by my coaching program. Or you have extremist groups, especially white extremist groups here in the US saying people are trying to get rid of you. White replacement theory. They're trying to remove you from society, they're trying to tell you that you don't matter. And it was such an easy way for the group to come in and say, you do matter and you need to be a soldier and save yourself and save your race and save your country. But there was a. I think that girl's argument was extremely valid. That there was a moment, there was a breath where had there been community in place to support these young men, to say, no, no, no, no, masculinity shows up how you want it to. It can show up in a bunch of ways. You're a human being that belongs. If had there been that sense of belonging, it would have been far more difficult to radicalize them into these ideologies. You know, and now we've got Gen Z men who, they just released a survey I think last week, where 54, I believe it's either 52 or 54% of them are Holocaust deniers now.

B (29:09)

Yeah, yep.

A (29:10)

And the absence of community and support really created fertile ground for this. And these manosphere red pill guys are making money hand over fist off of them.

B (29:22)

Yep, absolutely. No, and, and it's interesting that you're also mentioning the, the, the, the misogyny side of it because it's, you know, the, one of the common threads, I think, in all the various extremist movements that I've looked at. The. You've got this kind of ideological, you know, pieces of. It's the foreigners or it's the Jews or it's the Americans, whichever way you're looking at it, or it's the Muslims or it's whatever. But one of the things that they all have in common is this complete focus on women and this complete desire to want to shift the hierarchy back to what it used to be, or even more regressive than that if possible. And rather than having the conversation that you were saying, which is, I feel dislocated as a man, I don't know what it means to be a man anymore. I Don't know how I have my place without domination and power and violence and all the kind of negative attributes of what it means to be a human being. Where do I fit in? You know, everyone else is progressing at my expense. I remember some of the white supremacists like that. That was their thing is, you know, I can no longer accomplish or live the American dream because the immigrant gets there first. The Muslims are getting free meat. I mean, people kept telling me, or it's the women. And so I'm so far down, in fact, I don't even exist in the hierarchy anymore. So what do I do? And then what do I do? We never talked about it. The changes happened really fast. And I think a lot of people felt like just the rug was pulled from under them and all this progress where other people weren't gaining more rights, they were just gaining a bit more rights than what they used to have. But it felt like such a robbery and just a theft of what life used to be like and a theft of people's futures and their dreams that there's been no time to process. There's been no, like, okay, well, so how do we think about this? How are we going to deal with all of this and how do we bring more people with us? We just went, yes, let's just go. It's changing. You'll figure it out. You'll come along. And they're not. They're not, because they are being captured by all these other forces that are manipulating them. They're making money off of them. They're turning their brains into all different kinds of. Of ideologies instead of looking at the real stuff that people are actually feeling and not allowing them to be real human beings and just giving them these incredibly simple answers to the questions that they have. The questions are legitimate. It's answers that are a problem.

A (32:06)

Yes.

B (32:07)

And that's what I sort of get irritated with. You know, people kind of on, on the left or center left of, you know, the kind of political spectrum is that they just want to blame everything on everything. And it's just. They're all scumbags and they're all shit and they're just get rid of them all. And it's, it's not people's questions. And their fears are real to them. They're not perceived. They're real. Yes, but we don't have a better answer. We haven't crafted an alternative of it could also be this, and it could also be this. And this is what we're for. We're so busy being against Trump and being against all of this stuff that we haven't caught our breath enough to go. But actually, this is what we're for. And this picture of what we're for is big enough that it also has space for you. It's not instead of you, it's with you.

A (32:53)

Yes.

B (32:54)

And we're going to walk together, and we will figure it out. And it will be hard, but we will do this. There's so much to do.

A (33:04)

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B (33:07)

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A (33:48)

There's so much to do. And I, I, I made a comment a few months ago to someone of, I asked him, I said, could you be a human before being a man? And he, he looked at me and I was like, what, what does it mean to just be human for you if, if you, you know? Because I think for so many men, masculinity that they've been taught is so narrow. It's so narrow, and it's, you can only have rage. You can only feel aggression. You have to act this way, Wear these colors. Here's how you can act with women. Here's how you can act with men. You know, they don't have close friendships, but also they were kind of given this prescription for their life of, well, you're gonna go to school and you're gonna get married and you're gonna have two kids, and you're gonna be the provider for your family. That's your role. And not only is it very narrow, but then for many men, that didn't happen. And so now the only definition they've been given is not there. And so, again, to your point of like, oh, I was promised a wife. Like, I was promised a wife and kids and a house, and I could never afford a house. And there's a lot of these things. And you see this in the documentaries. A lot of the, again, the fears, a lot of the questions are very valid, and it's really what it gets turned into. And it makes me very nervous, especially for very young men, 13, 14, 15, that are entering those teen years where you just. Everything feels wrong, your body feels weird, you don't know what's going on. If you don't have really connected, caring parents, that's a very difficult space to navigate. And one of the things that I loved about the story of, especially how the, you know, sitting is it. Meeting with the enemy. I almost said sitting with the enemy. Meeting with the enemy came to be was you did a BBC interview that I thought your answer was brilliant, where you talked about kind of this rising unrest between immigrants and people in the uk. And you said, listen, that we're in a new. Essentially we're in a new era. Like, it's never going to go back to the way it was in the 1800s. The same way, you know, the kingdom, you know, kingdoms of Iran and Iraq are never going to go back to the way that they were. We're in a new era. And so we. And you said, we have to learn how to do this together, to build a place where we all belong. And the vitriol that you got from that, the comments just. I mean, from all. From especially the UK and the US but, you know, rape threats, murder threats, torture threats. They called you an incubator. They said, you should fear for your life. There was one that says, the UK will bleed with Muslim blood. And your response to all of this is, I'm gonna make a documentary on white supremacy and I'm gonna go meet with these groups. How did that happen? Because, you know, most people are like, ooh, I'm staying away from this. These people are scary and terrible. But you grabbed a camera and you came to the U.S. you know, came to the U.S. and you were at Charlottesville.

B (36:32)

Yeah.

A (36:32)

When that all happened. And I would love to know kind of what your thought was in the wake of all of that. Because that video went viral, that interview.

B (36:39)

Yeah.

A (36:40)

And the wake of all that abuse. And then what brought you to how you ended up at Charlottesville?

B (36:47)

So I. I did that interview and then just was inundated with death threats. And. And as I said earlier, I am used to death threats. I used to get a lot of death threats from Muslim extremists because I spoke about women's rights and I spoke about all the stuff that they didn't appreciate. So honestly, at the beginning, I kind of laughed it off. Cause I was just like, ugh. It's like, might as well be the same guy. It's like a different icon, but it's the same guy. The flag has changed, but that's it. Because the threats were the same. I mean, it all seemed, the words were the same. The words were the same. It's just, and literally, I mean, I even laughed and said to one of my friends, I was like, it's the same guy. Like it might as well be. Makes no difference. It's a Muslim, it's a jihadi, or it's a white supremacist. It's the same guy saying the same thing. And then the BBC called and they said, hey, look, we're getting a lot of death threats for you, and it's very, very dark. And we need you to take this very seriously. So we're sending over the police. And at the time, I was editing a different film in London, and the police called and they said, what kind of room are you in? If there are any windows, you need to leave, you need to get away from windows and go to a different floor until we get there. And I said, ok. And so they get there and they give me the whole talk about what to do and how to stay safe and all this kind of stuff and maybe lay low for a few months and all this kind of stuff. And they gave me some alarm thing or whatever. And then I remember going home that night and just thinking, okay, so I can now do what these threats are designed to do, which is to be afraid, which is to change, which is to go hide, which is to change my behavior or stop saying the things that I say. Or I can do something which I've never done, which is I can try to see if I can seek some of these people out and see if any of them would be willing to sit with me. And if we're able to have a conversation, if we're able to recognize each other as human beings. Because it's not like I love them either. You know, people always think that, oh, you're so nice. I, I, you know, so it's, it's mutual. Yeah, it was mutual. So I decided I am going to try to seek them out because the reason is otherwise. I'm handing over everything to them.

A (39:01)

Yep.

B (39:01)

I'm allowing them to define what my and other people's lives can and cannot be. And that, to me, is an unacceptable premise. And secondly, life is short. Life is too short to be afraid. So I, I, to me, it's a choice I had to make, a choice not to be afraid anymore. I have been afraid of people like that most of my Life, and I don't want to live like that anymore. So that's why I started reaching out to them. And most of them either didn't respond. Yeah, I mean, apparently what had happened is that in the U.S. because the death threats were coming from a lot of different countries, but a lot came from the US because it had ended up on some of the websites, sites that are. Are very violent. And I think one of them was Dylann Roof, used to frequent as well. I'm not going to say the name, but I think, you know, and they had, you know, also specifically said to go and scare the shit out of this shit skin, basically. So there. So that's also why a lot of people were coming, because they were being instructed to scare me and to threaten me. So when I started reaching out, most people didn't respond. And then finally, Jeff Scoop responded of the National Socialist Movement, which is the oldest and largest neo Nazi organization in the US and he was the leader of that for over 20 years. And I think I'd written him many, many, many, many, many times.

A (40:37)

Please answer me.

B (40:39)

Please answer me. Just please, you know, tell me no. Like, you know, just give me an answer. But, like, don't. Just. Just say tell me no if it's a no. And he finally writes back and he goes, you've got one hour. You come to this motel outside of Detroit and you get one hour. And then after that you leave me alone. You just stop contacting me, basically. Piss off. Like, just stop. And I was like, okay, fantastic, Great. He said, yes. He said, yes, I'm gonna go. And I remember showing up at this motel that he had said, and I never have security or anything like that. It's always just myself, but it's always myself and one other person and that's it. So it's not like a big crew or anything, because I always want to keep it as small and as intimate as possible so that people can be who they are and not kind of do the performance. And we've set everything up. And then I. Then I started thinking, oh, shit. Oh, my goodness, what if. What if, you know, what if he's not alone? What if he, you know, what if he comes with people? I'm in America now. They've got guns here. What if they come and they, like, rob us? What if they beat us up and take our stuff? Like, what if suddenly all the what ifs? And then, of course, the door knocks and awkwardly I go and I open the door and he is. And he's there. He's wearing his uniform thing, and it's just him. And he walks in and we start talking. And then we talked for one hour, two hour, three, four, five hours, and we were still talking, talking, and then he says. He said, look, we are. We're going to this place called Charlottesville. There's going to be a rally there called Unite the Right. And so I would like to continue talking with you, so why don't you come there and we can continue? And I was like, but you told me to piss off. Like, why? Why do you want to talk? And he said, well, I've never been on. Ask some of the things that you're asking. And he said, and I've never. He said, didn't. This didn't go the way that I thought it was going to go. And he said, and I find your questions really interesting. And he said, so I would just like to continue. And he said, you know, but just to be very clear, I hate the vision of the world that you stand for. And he said, and I will work till my last breath against that happening. And he said, but I do respect that you are very sincere. And he said, I respect the fact that you mean what you say and that you actually really believe in something. Even though we believe completely in the. I believed in the wrong thing, but at least I believe in something. And he said, you know, I've sat with journalists before, and we just. I say my thing, they say their thing, and then we both leave and that's it. And he said, this is different, so I want to continue. And at the time. And I instantly, yes, yes, yes, yes, I'll be there. Absolutely. I'm going to come, because a few weeks before that, I think it was a few weeks, I'd been to Charlottesville already, and there had been like a KKK thing there gathering there because of the statue, remember?

A (43:39)

Yep. Robert E. Lee statue.

B (43:41)

Exactly. So it was around that, but it was literally like 7, 8, 10, 12, not very many people. Couple of people with some kind of half robes on, half nod, some kind of, you know, was slightly toothless and some kind of flags and placards and stuff. And I was like, okay, well, it's just. That's what it's going to be. And he's going to hold up some sign or something. And of course I get there and, well, I got to go there with them. So I was there in the morning when all the group started gathering in this huge parking lot before they all drove into Charlottesville. And it was huge, and they were armed. And I remember and some were in, like, you know, the military stuff and the sticks. And I remembered and helmets and all. And I just remember going, oh, my goodness, this is something else. This is something huge. And then, of course, Jeff had said it was okay for me to be there, but nobody else has said it was okay. So every person's coming up to me. I'm the only person who looked like this. So not only do I look like this, I'm also holding a camera, which everybody hates, right? Who the fuck are you? Why are you here? Who, you know, who told you you can be here? What's your credentials? I was like, no credentials. Jeff said it. Yeah, I'm just. He said he done it. He said it was okay. Who talks to him? I don't know. I'm just here. I was looking for like four toothless people. This is not what I signed up for. So I just remember going, oh, goodness, this is something else. And then, you know, we drive in and I start walking and then they start marching out into. And of course, before they gather in this parking lot, before they. They walk out and there was a journalist there. It was like a blonde guy, journalist, really tall, and he's like, yeah, I've been, you know, I'm doing some book and I've, you know, the. Was it the hammer skins? I think. Was it the hammer skins? Yeah. And so I've been filming with some of those guys and then. And then suddenly he goes, just look down, Just look down. And I just went, okay. He said, just look down. Point your camera away. Point your camera away. And I just went, okay. I said, what is it? He said, well, some of them are coming and they had, like, tattoos all over their heads and their faces and they had like the thickest necks I've ever seen. And they were so tough and scary looking. So I'm trying look up and go.

A (45:58)

Because what is it like I want to see now?

B (46:00)

I want to see.

A (46:01)

You told me not touch the red button. Now I want to touch the red button.

B (46:06)

Exactly. So I was like, oh, don't look up, don't look up, don't look up. But yeah, as I'm looking down and. And then he goes, he goes, yeah. You know, the other week I was with them and then beat some guy till his eye fell out. And I just went, oh, shit. Okay, okay, look down. So now I am looking down, I'm looking down and I see these feet walk and then they stop, like, right across from me. And I just went, oh, my goodness. Don't look up, don't look up and they said something and I've just, I just couldn't breathe. And then they finally started walking ahead and I just went, oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. And then the other guys, the whole other groups start chanting and talking about deportations, that they're going to start the deportations and kind of they're getting riled up and they're like banging their shields in the ground and their big kind of stick things in the ground and they're like, we're gonna go in. And so I'm filming with them as I'm going in. And then of course we're surrounded by anti racist processors who. I got pepper. I mean I don't think they were intending me, but I got pepper spray. But they're yelling and screaming and I'm going with you. I'm not this, I'm trying to help, I'm not like, don't throw something at me too. And it very quickly, I mean as you know and as everybody saw, I mean it so quickly just descended into violence. But I remember walking behind some guys who were wearing these, who were kind of the more sanitized, the kind of alt right guys with their kind of white polo shirts and stuff on. And I remember some of them talking about how one of their biggest fantasies were finding what was to find a dark skinned woman who's pregnant so that they could kick her so much that she would lose her pregnancy. What? Yeah. And then they're laughing and then they're laughing and joking and yeah, and I'm walking right behind them and I was pregnant and I was. And this was in the middle of the summer in Virginia which, you know, it's so hot and I'm wearing like my, my, my Palestinian flag, my scarf and like baggy, baggy like multi, multi layers and just sweating and then it's turning violent and just going. And then I got pepper sprayed by the counter protesters and just went, this is just going to end very, very badly. So yeah, none of it was sort of the plan. I had no idea that it was going to turn into what it turned into. And then of course as we were, had managed to leave eventually towards the, the end of the afternoon in Heather here, she lost her life and they got the message. They were, they were packing up and they were laughing and they were joking and I'm not going to say the things that they said, but it was so disgusting because I couldn't quite make out what they were, what they were saying and who had died or what had happened or Somebody had gotten hit. It was just. It was terrifying. And also because there was a fair bit of police, but they were all on the outside, outside of the barricades that they'd set up for the whole march and everything. And then they kept moving it because it kept descending into violence. But they wouldn't. But I remember looking at them going, they're not intervening. They're just allowing it to happen. Why are they just letting it happen?

A (49:31)

Yeah. And how did that, like, experiencing that and experiencing the violence. How did, like, did you have a moment where you're like, I don't want to do this film anymore? Like, what if I go into these groups and this happens again?

B (49:51)

No, no, no. I, I. I really wanted to get through the project, and I was really. I was constantly aware of the fact that they were all. Every chance that they got, they were trying to get a rise out of me. They were trying to push my buttons. They were trying to make me either get really angry or get really sad or upset or to make me cry or whatever. And I think it just became a bit of a stubborn, kind of principled thing of, I'm not gonna let you have that. You don't get to decide how this goes. So I am gonna concede that you. But it did, you know, it did a couple of times. It did get to a point where I just thought, this is. This is. I don't know if I'm going to make it, but. But I. I didn't want for them to get set the conditions.

A (50:46)

Yeah, true.

B (50:48)

Because that's what they want, right? They. They want that. They want to provoke me. They want to. And I did lose it a couple of times, but. But I would constantly have to kind of, you know, get focused again and go, this is not why you're here. You're not here to punch a Nazi.

A (51:07)

It's like, I'm so angry, but I

B (51:08)

have to keep it inside. Yeah. No. And I remember with Jeff, the morning after Charlottesville, he had Had. I'd been in the car with. He didn't used to fly, so he was gonna drive from Detroit to Charlottesville. And I remember asking him if I could ride with him him, so that I could continue filming and continue talking to him. And he said it was fine. And he had a couple of other people in the car that were very, very, I would say, unstable and unsafe and very much on edge and very unhappy with me being there. And I just. The. The following morning, I just remember losing it with. With Jeff. He was about to leave, and I was about to go some. To continue filming with some of the other people. And I remember just looking at him going, what are you doing? What is this that you're a part of? I was just like, you know, I've spent enough time with you now to know that you're better than this. I know it. I know you're better than this. You're actually a decent guy. I know it. And I said, this doesn't make any sense. This really doesn't make any sense to me. I said, this is some. Some shit, some useless shit that you've decided to attach yourself to. And this is just ridiculous. I didn't say it this calmly.

A (52:27)

Yeah, I was like, wow, that was. That's you losing.

B (52:31)

No, no, no, no. But he. And. And he's just standing there, like, with his car keys in his hands and just kind of just not answering, just looking at. But also not laughing. Not. I think he was just a little stunned. So him and I had, you know, kind of had it out a few times. And the very, very last day that I filmed with him because, you know, he'd put up a lot because I kind of got to know that I could push his buttons a little bit and what sort of the lines were. And I remember the very last day that I filmed with him, I had the Uber come and packing up our stuff, and then I ran over to him and I said, hey, look, you've been super patient and you've been really, really, you know, open, and I appreciate how honest you've been. You've tried to answer as openly and as honestly as you've been able to, and you've put up with a lot of me pushing. So I just want to thank you. And I said, you know, is it okay to give you a hug? And I said, you know, it's been because I'd started joking, saying, I'm a bit like an annoying sister for you, like an annoying little sister. And he would never say anything. And. And I said, is it okay to hug you? Like, is it. Is that okay? Like, you know, I'm probably never going to see you again, but just want to say thank you. And, you know, and he hugs me and he says. He says, you are like an annoying sister. And he said, and I want you to know you have a brother now. And he said, if you ever need anything, you tell me. You just let me know. And I never said that. I can say it now, but I never said that publicly to anybody because he was still in. He hadn't left. So I Didn't want to say publicly that, well, guess what? He actually said, he's my brother now. But he did. And so then two years later, two years after the film came out, when he called me and he's like, d, I'm done. I. I can't do this anymore. Then I could finally say it. But. But I was. I was not surprised because in that moment when he said that, I thought, he's not going to stay in this. He might leave in two days or he might leave in 20 years. I don't know. But this is. This is not forever for him. Him. At some point, this is going to fall apart. And so now, you know, what he said to me in later years is that, you know, he started having doubts a few years before as well. And it just, you know, things just started adding on top of each other, on top of each other, on top of each other where. To the point where he's just like, no, this is. I'm not doing this. And I remember he used to talk about. I don't know if he would mind me saying this, but he used to talk about his. His family and how they really wanted him to leave, and especially his mother wanted him to leave. And he never did, you know, but he has now, which was. Which was. Yeah. Which was amazing. Amazing. And he had. And he truly. He has become like a brother. And so when he found out that I was pregnant during the whole thing, he's like, why didn't you tell me? Who does that? Who does that? I was like, who does the Nazi thing? I mean, what are you talking about? Excuse you, sir. Yeah, who are you to me? Yeah, but he's. He's. Yeah, people are interesting, you know, People are. Have the capacity to be amazing. Right. Next to being awful. The capacity for being absolutely horrible, you know, and there was a.

A (56:00)

There was a part of the film where he takes you through Detroit and he kind of shows you these really broken down, destroyed neighborhoods. And you're like, why am I here? Why are you. He explained to you that this is a. You know, I moved to Detroit because it's an amazing recruitment ground, you know, and they look for kids that are impoverished or come from broken homes or left behind. Kind of what we were talking about before.

B (56:20)

Yeah, it's so cynical.

A (56:22)

It's so cynical. And it's very predatory in a way. But one of the quotes. And I actually wrote this whole quote down because it just. It was one of the moments in the film that really stood out to me from Frank Meehan, who said, I'm a broken human being. I feared everything. I feared my parents, I feared my stepparents, I feared my school. I feared if I'd have food that day. And now this guy feared me, and I loved it. And he was speaking about the first time he assaulted someone with a white supremacy group. And I felt like that captured so much of what these movements are based on. You know, you look at white replacement theory, white civil rights activists, which is just a mind numbing sentence for me. I'm like, what? Excuse me. But it really, like, I really appreciated Jeff being transparent about we are capitalizing on brokenness and pain and poverty. And then also Frank saying, I was abused, I was scared, I was starving and they gave me a home. But also I could make someone afraid. And I wasn't the only one afraid anymore.

B (57:27)

Exactly. I suddenly felt powerful.

A (57:29)

Yeah, I suddenly felt powerful. And that is just such another part of this really complex thing of when you feel powerless and you have the opportunity to be the person in power. I mean, that's. I think a lot of times, you know, you see abusive kids or abusive kids, kids that are abused will often like abuse animals or they'll bully other kids because they're trying to take some power back, some control. And I also noticed this huge difference in what I would call your blue collar men that you interviewed in these groups versus kind of the Richard Spencer elite. You know, Richard Spencer. And if you guys don't know who he is, he's an alt right leader. He lives in the wealthiest neighborhood in Alexandria. But when he would talk to you, he was very flippant. And the elites are gonna rule and we're gonna take control. When you confronted him about the United States making its money in power on the back of slaves and kidnapping and killing people and stealing, he was like, well, that's good, because we just took it. And he taunted people holding a vigil for Heather. And versus when you would speak to these blue collar men, really, you know, I remember, you know, you would read them these comments and these threats you got, and they would say, man, that's terrible. Like, somebody shouldn't say that to you. And you're like, dude, you have a swastika behind your head. But there, there was this. I felt. And I was wondering if this was the same for you. It felt like there was a connection to humanity that was much easier to access.

B (58:55)

There it was.

A (58:56)

They really, they really opened up. They really told their stories. And it. It was really this story of hurt young men that became hurt men and these angry Men. But it was amazing to me to watch those interviews and the change with Brian Culpepper, who, when you asked him, like, hey, based on this ideology, would you deport me? And he said, yes. And he's like, I don't wanna see you hurt, but yes, I would. And then for later, for him to call and say, I don't believe that anymore. And when you asked me that, it was really uncomfortable for me to have to answer that question to you. But there was just. This is more of a thank you than a question. You were able, in that way with. You were so calm, but your questions were so precise and you were so persistent that you were able to create these really magical moments of humanity between you and some of these men in a way that I wouldn't have thought was possible coming into that documentary. And one of the interviews, you sit across from him and you're like, I'm a woman, I'm a Muslim, I'm a feminist. And you just listen off all of these things. You're just like, this is who I am. What do you think? And he says to you, you know, like, you know, your ideologies are going to be the end of my race or whatever, but it created this. This beautiful humanity that I think there's something about you that created so much safety for them to talk that we got to see that part of their story. And when I sat bolt upright while I was watching this, the first time was when you mentioned that you were going to talk to Arno Michaelis. I was almost out of my chair. I'm like, she is not going to meet with Arno Michaelis. For those of you who don't know who he is, he is the lead singer of a very violent, very racist band from the 90s called Centurion. Former lead singer. He was guilty of many, many assaults, hate crimes, served time for it, and then walked away. Yeah, and. But when you were in the car with him, I was like, my skin was itching, I was so anxious. I was like, I don't know if I would get in a car. Like, I would have to sit and talk to you first before I'm getting in a car with you. But one of the things he talked about was the hate that he. The hate and the harm and the fear that he felt that he put out into the world. And how do you think with those men? You know, Arno got out. Jeff has left. Brian Culpepper tendered his resignation. What do you think for those men, men that were so deep in the movement, men that were. I mean, Arno was famous because of his stance, because of these horrific lyrics he was writing. What do you think in them changed or healed enough to be able to pivot out of that? I mean, Arnaux was assaulting people and committing hate crimes. Very violent.

B (61:45)

Yeah, and he's huge.

A (61:46)

And he is a big man. Everyone go look up Arno Michaelis. He is a big guy.

B (61:51)

He's a, he's, he's really scared. Like, to be on the other end of his rage would, you know, I mean, he even says it, you know, he, he left people for dead. I mean, he was so, so brutal with people. But, you know, the, the consistent or kind of similar patterns that I've seen with. So if I'm to compare these guys, Arno and Jeff and everybody with the Jihadis, for example, because I also film guys that had left there years later, some of the common thread seems to be starting to see the hypocrisy within their own movement. So starting to see what their, what their ideals were, what the values and principles that they thought they stood for, and then starting to see that it's not quite like that, that there is a lot of hypocrisy, that there is a lot of manipulation. That, for example, to your point, that the suit and tie racists get a very different position in the whole thing. To the working class guys, for example, like at Charlottesville, the night before, and I think it was the night before, they were the working class guys. Guys were doing security for the Richard Spencers. And I remember looking at some of them going, why would you do that? He's such a dick. Why would you, like, you know, and to me. And they were like, what's wrong with you? Why are you talking? I said, he doesn't like me. That's obvious. Like, you know, it's no, no surprise that a racist doesn't, you know, approve of somebody like me. That's not my point. He has such contempt for you. You're white, but because you're working class, like, he, he. His contempt for you is palpable. So why would you serve somebody like that? You know, you have more in common with me or with the immigrant man or the black guy that you hate so much than you do with him or with Trump. So some of them starting to see, I think some of the hypocrisies within their own movements is the beginning of when it starts to fracture. The picture starts breaking a little bit. Then the second thing that was consistent that I've seen Across both is a person or people from the group that they dehumanized and considered to be the enemy. Treating them like human beings and not dehumanizing them also starts creating a crack in the facade. So for Arno Michael, one of the things that he talked about is that it was an African American woman that used to work at a McDonald's that he used to go to. And he had the really kind of vile tattoos on his knuckles that she could see. And she was always nice to him, apparently. She was always really sweet. She was an older woman, and she several times even said to him, sweetheart, I know you have all this stuff, but I know you're better than that. I know you're much better than that. And I think she would sometimes give him food even when he didn't have cash or whatever. So she was really loving towards him, even though he didn't really deserve it.

A (65:02)

There is no love like love from an older black woman. I just want to put that out there. There is something. When an older black woman hugs you or says, hey, baby, it's okay, like the world is fine. I'm.

B (65:15)

The world is going to be now it's my safe, happy.

A (65:19)

I resonate with that so much.

B (65:20)

Yes, definitely. But, you know, similarly with some of the jihadis that I'd filmed with, you know, one of the guys that had left there said that he was. When he was wounded in one of the fights, he was treated by an American nurse. So he was brought back to life essentially by an American nurse. He hates, hated Americans, hated the them and wanted to kill them and was there to kill them. So that start. Because it breaks the picture of. And. And for. For Brian. Brian thinks he's a good guy. He's passed away, unfortunately. But, you know, Brian thought that he. That he's a good guy. And I mean, everybody's the hero of the story in their own mind, right? Like, nobody even, even. Even Jeff. I remember asking in the film, you know, what if you're wrong? And he's like, well, what do you mean? Like, I don't wake up every day going, I'm going to do the wrong thing. I'm doing the right thing. You know, so everybody thinks that they're doing the right and the righteous things, whatever that is for that person, when that doesn't match up to. Well, if I am that, and then the people I'm with are treating her, who I now consider to be kind of a friend in this way, then what does that make me? Where does it all actually fit? So I think so. Those have been sort of the two consistent tracks that I've seen. One is the disillusionment with their own movement and seeing the hypocrisies within it, that it's not delivering what it says, that it isn't what it presents itself to be. And then secondly, the same thing that the enemy that they considered to be their enemy not only are holding onto their humanity, but are. Are refuse to dehumanize them, even when they deserve it, even when they would be completely within their right to do so. Don't. Then what does that make me? So I think that disconnect is where the process begin for a lot. Begins for a lot of people. I mean, obviously not everybody. For example, Richard Spencer. What was interesting with him? He never sat with me one on one. We were supposed to do an interview alone. He never once took the time to sit by. I spent so much time with him. He would always have his boys. He would always want an audience.

A (67:37)

It's a show.

B (67:38)

Yep, it is a show. So he's never gonna be himself because he's not talking to me. So for me, what was really interesting was to capture his contempt. Not for me, that's easy. We know that. But his contempt for the white working class was really important for me. The minute he said that, I just went, there, we have it. That's as much truth as I'm going to get from you. So. And I find that really interesting. And we'll see. I mean, I remember at the time, you know, Jeff also said, because we got into it about Trump at the time, because it was really early in his first term. And I remember Jeff saying that, you know, our views were on the fringes. We're considered this or that, but our talking points are now in the White House, else. Yep. And they are. And that's not me saying it. That's not you saying it. That's a neo Nazi saying it.

A (68:32)

Yep.

B (68:33)

You know, and, and, but again, he could never quite connect that he doesn't have anything in common with Trump. He would. And, and we would argue back and forth about that. A lot going. Don't you see it? You're not in the same. He's picking your pockets, he's picking your votes, he's picking everything you have. You know, he's in it for himself and his boys. He's using you and he's using your. The legitimate, some of them issues that you have. And I said your solidarity should be with the immigrants and with everybody that you. You think that you should hate. You have something in common with each other. You'd have nothing in common with that man at all and others like him. And we see that obviously now all the time.

A (69:16)

Yep. And that's something that actually was, you know, and, and I, I can recognize it now looking back. But when I started to. I realize now college in many ways was. Even though I was in a super con, Christian conservative college, I went to Liberty University. Even though I was still in that bubble. There were several steps that happened that set me up to be able to deconstruct Christian nationalism and the very thinly veiled kind of far right that I grew up in. But one of the things that happened was I went to boarding school from eighth grade through graduation, and then I went to college. So when I got to college, I didn't want to live in regular dorms anymore. I had already done it for five years. I was over it. So I went to the kind of quad, nicer dorms, which was where most of the wealthy, wealthier white students mostly were. And my roommate was black. And I love her and Rhonda, shout out to you. I still love you for showing me Tupac. Thank you. But most of them were, you know, these upper middle class, upper class women. And I was not. I was there on dominantly a scholarship having that paid for. That's the only reason I could afford it. I was working at a diner, cause it was the only place I could work at underage. Cause they didn't serve alcohol. And it was. I remember. And this was also my first time really encountering black people en masse. Because I'm from Wyoming. It's very, very white dominant. And I remember being at the diner and my manager was Latino and my. The girl I loved working with the most was black. And she was from. They were from Nashville. And I remember closing up one night and we are all laughing. We're laughing so hard. I'm like doubled over on the counter. And I just had this moment because there had always been these, like, very subtle kind of racial ideologies. Not as subtle as I thought they were when I was a kid. Things like my dad would never say a slur, for instance. Like, he would punch somebody that said a slur. But he would say things to me like, like, well, it's just better that races don't mingle. It never works for the kids. Or he would say things like, you know, this was one that, when I got older and I understood what it meant because he told me this when I was nine. But it was like Black men are going to prey on you because you're a trophy. Like, I was nine. This was in a kfc. It was such a brazen thing to just say like that. And my. I had one grandfather who was very, very racist. And so I'm sitting here with these girls and I. I never understood. Racism was something in the far right that never made sense to me because I was like, you can't choose it, you can't change it. It has no reflection on your character. And it just. That was just something that I logically could not understand. I bought into their talking points about marriage when I was a young teen because I thought, oh, maybe it is culturally hard for a kid to grow. I didn't understand any of that. When I got older, I was like, that's dumb. You're making an excuse. But working with those girls, I realized I have so much more in common with you than I do these rich white girls that I room with, and they were all lovely, none of them were bad, but they would talk about things or lived in existences that I could not comprehend because I didn't grow up with wealth. You know, they're talking about what coach bag they're gonna get for Christmas or whatever. And I was like, I don't. I don't even know what that is. Like, I don't. Is that a brand? And it was. But it was this kind of pivotal moment, working in this diner and then later working at Starbuck, of, like, understanding who I actually had things in common with versus who I was told I had things in common with. And so when the Trump administration and the Trump campaign started, I could see, because I had seen it growing up, them trying to create this, like, bowl of white people that we are. We are all in common with each other because we're white. And I saw that so clearly for what it was, because I'm like, no, you don't. Because Trump and the administration tried to play it as, oh, he's just. He's this white businessman. No, he's. He's someone. He is an elite who was born with a spoon in his mouth that does not give two shits about you.

B (73:18)

No.

A (73:18)

And. But I saw that very clearly, and I think a lot of people got scooped up in that. But these. These common blue collar extremist groups, but even just regular people.

B (73:28)

Yeah.

A (73:29)

Were swept up in it, in this belief of, someone sees me, me, I belong. I'm part of this group. And it's just like, dude, no, you're not. When they talk about tax cuts they're not talking about for you.

B (73:39)

No.

A (73:39)

They're not for you ever. Not for you. And it's, It's. I think a lot of people have changed their mindset in that and understanding who they have things in common with it and, and the disdain that, you know, people like Trump feel for someone who's poor or someone who, you know, prisoner of war or anything like that, just. And we see it now. But what I. One of the things, and part of the reason one of the. My main incentives for this interview was as someone who has a platform like I do, and I don't always get it right, I get riled up sometimes. I want to throw darts, I want to tackle the bear. How can we, as people, whether we have a platform or not, in your mind, start to create the type of change you created in some of these men, not by yourself, but you were part of this journey for them. Them to get their way out. How do we create moments like the woman at McDonald's with Arnaud? How does someone like me with a platform? What would you say are the best ways to start to humanize each other, to break that cycle?

B (74:44)

I really appreciate you asking that, because I think so. So, and I. And I want to be very clear. I didn't set out when I was making this film. I didn't set out to change anybody's mind or any of the things that happened, happened to have happened. I mean, if, in fact, if you would have said to me some years ago that you're going to end up becoming friends with neo Nazis, I would be offended that you would think I would do that. So I didn't set out to do any of this, but I changed as much in many ways as they did. And I think part of what changed is that it put my own prejudices in front of my eyes also. And I had to reckon with myself and my stuff, stuff and how I view people, too. And, and one of the biggest things that I've learned from it is that no matter what, I refuse to remove somebody's dignity from the interaction that we're having or any kind of contact that I have with people. Doesn't matter how much we disagree, doesn't matter how much somebody else tries to be obnoxious or be hateful or be aggressive. I still have to choose who I want to be in my life. And. And if I say that I. I believe in certain values, then I have to actually practice that. I have to stand in it, and I have to walk that way. Otherwise, my values don't mean anything if I'm only willing to extend dignity and rights and, and, and respect and decency to you because I like you and because you and I view the world mostly the same. That's not values. You know, your values and your principles only matter when they're challenged. And when you have to extend it to people you don't like and you might even hate and you disagree with. And I think if we don't try to stand for that, then there's not that much difference between us and people like that who we say hate us. So I think so for me, it's been really important to. Because a lot of my friends from time to time ask me, why do you keep filming all these really horrible guys, like, what's wrong with, with you? And you know, why you're trying to rescue them and why you're trying to, you know, you're trying to save their humanity or something? And I keep saying, no, that you have it actually the, the wrong way around. I'm not trying to rescue their humanity. I'm trying to hold on to mine, which I think is really important. So, and especially in a moment that we're in now, in our world, it's even more important.

A (77:11)

Yeah.

B (77:12)

How we face what we're up against. And I think, what do we do? To your question, what do we do? I think we have to resist the urge to become like them. As satisfying as it is and as good as it feels, it's not going to get us anywhere. Then it just becomes this really polluted loop where nobody gets to that other place that we need to get at. And I think being open, being willing to acknowledge that people are people and that, yes, people make, you know, decisions that I disagree with, people hold views that I vehemently disagree with and dislike, but we have to have space for people to change their mind, to come back. I mean, you know, know better than anyone how much our identities are bound up in, in the beliefs that we have, how much people's identities are now bound up in having voted for Trump. I have friends that have voted for Trump who are smart and thoughtful, amazing, amazing people. I don't get it.

A (78:29)

Yeah, it's like, what happened?

B (78:31)

What happened? Like, why you, like, you know, I don't get it. But, but her identity is so intertwined with Trump now that any attack on Trump is an attack on her. So I think having a bit more grace and a bit more openness and a willingness to listen, I think, to each other is really important. And I think starting with what we disagree with doesn't work because it just shuts down everything. So I think starting with what we do agree on, which could be things like the pain that we have, the stuff that makes us truly, truly human, where we can actually see ourselves in each other. I think if we start from that, we could build something different. So I think it's important that we engage with people that are different from us. It doesn't have to be extremists. It can be an uncle that holds uncomfortable views, it can be a friend who voted this way or that way. But so I think it's important to engage across differences and I think to center dignity as much as possible and to refuse to give up on people's humanity, even if they've given up on it and they've given up on us. I think we cannot afford to give up on people anymore. I think we need everybody and everybody has a place and should have a place. So I think we have to start creating and being the alternative that we are wanting to see come into being. I think from this incredible chaos that we're in, we have to hold on to each other, but we also have to hold on to ourselves. So we can't lose our own mind and our own sanity and become so exhausted that we can't do anything. So I think while we try to engage across differences and we try to listen across, across differences, I think we also have to. I think we have to look after ourselves and look after each other. But I think the urge to want to convince someone or fix someone, we have to leave that at the door. I think we have to meet people where they are and I think we have to be able to see them as human beings and not try to correct them them or convince them or out argue them, but just listen and then slowly, slowly start questioning what they're saying, but also sharing how we feel and how scared and how difficult a lot of this is for many of us too. But I don't think people have the capacity to listen until they've first been heard is at least my experience is, Jeff. And none of them were able to hear my experiences until they were completely kind of emptied out. And somebody has to go first. They're not going to go first, right? So we have to go first. The ones of us who can, who can, who can stomach it. And I'm not saying, and I always want to be very, very, very clear because I've had people say to young women, especially some young Muslim women who've gone through all kinds of despicable stuff online and in. In person as well. And they go, why don't you just do what DIA does? Why don't you just talk to the racist? Why don't you just. And that's. And that. Find that just despicable. I just don't like that. Because it's not. It's not the responsibility of people who've been oppressed and abused and discriminated against to reform their abuser. It's not the job of minorities or people of color or women to do that. All I am saying is for the ones of us who want to, we should. And we should get to continue without being. I mean, it's very important for me to be clear that just because I treat them like human beings doesn't mean I agree and doesn't mean it's okay what they stand for and doesn't mean that we diminish the harm that they're causing. Yeah, it's very, very important. And I think it's very important.

A (82:29)

I think in many ways it actually proves the opposite because you're stepping into their world and you're being very clear about, this is who I am, this is what I believe in, this is what I stand for. And because it almost to me translates as because I'm not like you, I will not treat you how you would treat me in the opposite situation. Like, I will not stoop to that level. And I love what you said. I got a little misty of your. Like, I was holding on to my humanity. I have to hold on. And that's so true. And I've felt that a little bit, especially over this last year, working in social media full time now. Is that, like, how do I hold onto myself and not get caught in these waves and these circles of these, you know, whether it's a clickbait algorithm or it's a response to something that is said that is really, truly disgusting. But is there a way that I can break that cycle instead of feed into it? Because sometimes my emotions get the better of me and it's easy to flippantly respond or to attack. And I think I was so impressed upon by how you conducted those with honesty and integrity. But also to me, again, it proved the exact opposite. I don't agree with you because I'm sitting in this room with you.

B (83:44)

Correct.

A (83:44)

In fact, I'm proving that I'm not like you by sitting in this room with you, which I think was a far more impactful statement than having an argument could have been.

B (83:54)

I think so. Because the argument they're used to that. And they came prepared for that. That's what was really interesting. That's why many of them got flustered in conversations I've had with them since the film. Also, they know how to deal with that. They know how to deal with somebody who goes, no, let me tell you this and let me, you know, da, da, da. I remember one of the guys saying that, you know, I'm used to coming and I'll, I do my kind of, you know, Nazi thing and then you do your anti racist thing. We both pat ourselves on the back for having done a great job and spoken to each of our audiences and then we leave. But we never talk to each other. We never actually said anything to each other. We're just speaking to our own choir, to our own, you know, algorithmic communities. And that doesn't break anything. It's time to break it. It's time to break this whole thing apart. Because it's not true what they're being sold. And also to some extent, what we're being sold is not true. We are in this together and things are broken and things are messed up and life is not great for the majority of people. And some of these challenges are, are so true and so real. And we have to be there for each other. And it's down to us now. The powerful have proven who they are. The people who profit from us have proven who they are. So it's down to people and it's down to people like me. It's down to people like you. It's down to people like Jeff. It's down to people that we don't like to now realize we have to practice a different way. Way. So it's, it's in our action now. And I think, you know, what can we all do? I think it is, I think anger does have a place though. I mean, I don't think we can all be Zen and I don't think it's, you know, and I'm not. Like I say, you know, I'm, I'm lucky just physically. I have low blood pressure. So that's, you know, been a gift for me. Same, you know. You know, so that's a good thing. But. And as I say, I lose it. I mean, I've threatened to break my camera in somebody's face like, you know, outside of an abortion clinic.

A (85:49)

And.

B (85:49)

And then I had to get myself together and go back in and apologize and go, okay, can we start over? Like, you know.

A (85:54)

Yeah, sorry about that.

B (85:56)

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I'm serious. Yeah. So I want to be very clear. You know, I'm not always like, you know, I cannot always just hold it together, but I try to because I know they want me off balance. I know everything around us is designed to throw us off balance. And it's designed to speak to the worst in us. And it's an invitation for the worst qualities in us to come out, and that's what's coming out in them. So we have to do the opposite. And the more human we can be, the more in dignity and in kind of love and from that place that we can be, it does invite something else out of even people like that. Not when they're in groups, as we know, when they're all in groups, it's one on one. It does come out. So it's, it's in a way, if you raise our expectations by being loving and by being more kind of open and like, look, I believe in you. I know you've done this, but, but like with Jeff, you know, the, the. There's this other guy, the guy with the swastika, he, he also left. He's kind of in, in and out, I think, from time and time to time. But his name is Ken. He had the swastika on his chest, remember?

A (87:10)

Yeah.

B (87:12)

A few months after the, the. The film came out, he. Because he posted that photo with big weapon. So people had. So his university had taken it as a threat that he's going to shoot up the, the school or whatever. I, he was up for a hearing. They were deciding whether they were going to allow him to continue studying there or not. And I decided to write a letter to the. Them, to the committee and say, this is who I am. This is how I know him, and this is what I know. He's not a shooter. He's very, very problematic in every possible way. I accept that. I really accept it. And he's a handful. I accept it. But he will not shoot up your school. And what this man needs right now is to be in a place where he can be challenged and he can learn and he can be exposed to different people and different ways of living, living and thinking and different histories and different stories. He needs access to that. If you throw him out, you are throwing him farther into the arms of that stuff. And he really needs to be here. He really, really needs this. This will save his life. And they decided against it. But because he, he saw the letter, he looked at me and he goes, none of my white brothers ever did that shit for me. He's like, you know, you put your neck on the letter line. You put your neck on the line for me. You didn't have to do that. And so he left. And then as I said, you know, he kind of does this, but. But it's. He's. He'd given up. He'd given up on all of us. He'd given up on himself. We cannot do that. We cannot do it even when people seem really, really far gone. Because if we're inviting and wanting our society to be different, then we have to show up in a different way and we have to act out of that other place so that, that also comes out in them. Because it will. It really, really will. We can lower the expectations. I remember Frank Mink, the guy you're talking about, the other neo Nazi, he said to my face, he said, you know, when I used to go to all these protests, he said, you know, when I used to see the anti fascists and the anti racists. And he said, and they would throw stuff at us and they would curse at us, all the stuff I used to do. He said it would embolden me. He said, I never would once did I think, oh, you know what? I think I'm going to change my opinion. He said, if anything, I double down. I absolutely double down. And the reason he left is because he was in prison for having done horrible thing and torturing and kidnapping and all kinds of horrible stuff. But his prison mate, his cellmate, was, was an African American guy. So that's where stuff started changing because they're both fathers and talking about missing their children and missing out on the lives of their kids. And then when he came out of prison, prison, he also had swastikas everywhere. A Jewish man, nobody would give him a job. A Jewish man gave him a job. Wow. And became like a father for him. And he said, and I was done. He said, once that happened, I was done. He said, this man had no reason to cut me any slack or to believe in me or to treat me with any kind of decency. And he still did. And he saved my life. So. So I'm not saying we all need to do such extreme things, but there's something in that worth, worth just keeping with us and just worth filing somewhere in the back of our heads that it does matter. You and I know when somebody believes in me or believes in you, it means something. It means a lot. Even when we don't believe in ourselves, right? And somebody sees us, it means a lot. So that person might not change or, you know, whatever in Overnight. But that's how I want to show up. I want to be the person that believes in people. I want to be the person that is willing to give a chance. Does that mean I might still get shot? Maybe. But I still decide I will not become like that. I will not. So I think there's something in that and whatever that means for different people, however they want to show up and however we have to become bigger, we have to do this and we have to include more people and we have to go. It's okay. It's. It's. It's. You don't have to think exactly like this or that. But. But we're gonna figure some stuff out together.

A (91:29)

There's no one like you.

B (91:30)

And there never will be.

A (91:31)

From the producer Bohemian Rhapsody

B (91:35)

There are many legends, but there is Only one

A (91:41)

radio PG13 in theaters April 24th. Yeah, and where can I'm gonna. I have, like, written some notes. I'm like, I need to journal about that later. It's just things you've said has been.

B (91:52)

But does it make sense?

A (91:53)

It makes absolute sense. It makes absolute sense of. And there's. But there's just this beautiful. You know, even when you said, like, when someone believes in us, we feel that. You know, I. Growing up. How I grew up. I remember my dad never said he was proud of me until my senior chapel. And it was like he'd never said it to me. He says it to this group of people in this chapel. And I remember just freezing and forgetting the English language for a second because he'd never said that. But it happened a different time. Shout out to Dr. Horton. In my. My college years, I was. I had visited him for office hours. I don't remember what for. And I was walking down the hall to leave the athletic building and I just hear him shout, I believe in you, kid. And it was the same thing. I just froze. And it was only the second time in my life that, like, someone had said that to me. And I wasn't doing anything crazy or doing anything wrong. But I also felt. I felt really lost. And I had always felt like I didn't belong somewhere. I had felt like I didn't know where home was. I always felt like the kid that's looking in the window at the toy store instead of getting to be in the store. And those little moments do matter. And I think if you're listening to this and you're like, I don't know how to interact with people who hold these beliefs. A lot of times it's gonna show up being brother or your sister or your uncle, and they're going to say something you don't agree with. And what I have found to be the most helpful to me is to just say, can you tell me more about that? Yeah, and just let.

B (93:16)

Don't try to correct them. Yeah, don't try to correct them. Try to listen. Yeah, try to listen and get to why they think what they think. And slowly, slowly, you can start introducing things that make them have to look at the same thing, but from a different point of view. Just as an exercise, just go, hey, look, you know, as if you were this and this, you know, but not in the tone of an argument, because I think as soon as. I mean, I have. As I said, I have small kids and I see the same thing. My tone has everything to do with what I say. I can say something incredibly harsh and tough to them, but if I say it like this, it's. They can take it in. They can hear it. But if I just, you know, and I become like this, then everybody shuts down. Nobody wants that. Nobody can hear it. So if we want people to hear, hear us, this doesn't work. It never does. You know, pointing the finger and becoming aggressive and aggressive and riled up again. It feels good, and there's a place for that, but it doesn't actually work. The other person cannot hear you, and they need to be heard.

A (94:16)

Yeah.

B (94:16)

And sometimes people say things out loud and then they realize, oh, my goodness, like, they've never been able to finish. And if they can finish, sometimes they unpick their own arguments, sometimes because they just go, wait a minute, just say. I mean, it doesn't actually make any sense, but it's. You know, I think it's the kind of upheaval that we're in, both in the US but also around the world, I think. You know, and we've got people like Musk talking about, you know, empathy is. Is toxic and, you know, the empathy will be the end of us. It's actually the opposite. We've got an empathy deficit right now. I think we need more empathy and we need more stories and more exposure to each other's humanity so that we can realize that this is some crazy. Where we're willing to take each other's lives, we're willing to destroy. I mean, look at what Israel's doing. I mean, the utter brutality, annihilation, annihilation and erasure of an entire people. And they. They got to do that with zero consequences. And now they're just moving on to Lebanon. And moving on to all these other places. And the world is completely quiet. So we see that leaders of the world won't do anything. We have to do it. So. So as much as we need to work within the US context, we also have to start extending our solidarity outwards because the, the what the US is going through now, many other countries have gone through their versions of it. And I will tell you, I get to work with a lot of Muslim women and women activists from all different parts of the world who work in very, very, very dark circumstances, who, for some of them, it's almost like a certain ending that's, that's inevitable for them. But they still laugh, they still smile, they still dance, and they still hug each other, and they still are there for each other. So if they can do that, we can do it. And if anything, we now need to link arm. We need to link arm with Palestinian women, with Iranian women, with Lebanese women, with Ukrainian women, with people and men. I mean, we need to. It's down to us. It's us, the people and this incredibly brutal, savage system and top layer that is just sucking the blood out of everybody. Our planet and our people and our resources and our future picture. Yeah. And, and so we have to, we can, we cannot afford, I think, to give up and we can't afford to lose hope and we can't afford to, to be dispirited. I think we have to hold on to each other. We really, really, really do. It's really needed and be as clear as we can be. You know, I mean, it's the Musks and the Epstein's and the Trumps and the, you know, people like Musk. It just grates on my nerves that he, for so many reasons, but you know, this, this other drum that they all keep beating of women, of, oh, you know, women, women. And they're raping our women and they're doing this and they're doing that. He cares about the rape of women and girls if the perpetrator is brown. He doesn't care when the perpetrator is Epstein or Trump or any other like

A (97:31)

white rich guy when it's virtual assault using grocery AI.

B (97:35)

Exactly his own, exactly. His own company and he, him lining his own pockets and profiting from the abuse of children and women. So it's. The hypocrisy is ridiculous. You know, and it's so they don't care about us. For anybody who thinks that they care about us, they don't. We care about each other and we are there to pick up the pieces, the wars that they are starting all over the place. Place they're sending. Who are they sending? They're sending the working class boys and girls, right, to go and kill other boys and girls like them who are in the same boat while they all sit on their Epstein Islands and just destroy our kids on every level. And then you've got Israel bombing and slaughtering children. So none of them can care. None of them care about us. So we have to that it shouldn't be something that makes us go, oh, well then, then what's the point? The point is we have to dial up how much we care about each other and we have to hold each other and refuse them as much as we can. So we. So what do we do? We all do our little part, whatever that means, whatever that looks like and whatever people can bear, we do that. Otherwise, you know, we're in for a lot of trouble. So we have to refuse it. Yeah.

A (99:03)

And I love how you phrase that several times throughout the show is just, I will not allow this to happen. I will not allow myself to be in this position or this place. And this interview has been so incredible. And I know that it's evening for you and I appreciate you so much, taking the time. I would love for you to let everyone know where they can find you, where they can find your films. I think that the work you're doing is exactly what you said of we have to care about us. And you are doing that in such a brave, bold, beautiful way that I've learned a lot from and that I think everyone else can. So I would love for you to just let everyone know where they can find you and your films.

B (99:44)

Oh, thank you. It means a lot to me to get to spend this time with you. You can find me on Instagram and the films. I'm not supposed to, but I've been putting them out on YouTube just so people have access to them, so they're not geo blocked in different countries. So, yeah. So through Instagram or YouTube, on YouTube, the whole films are there, the full length is there.

A (100:05)

And I will include her information in the show notes so that everyone can find DS Page and her YouTube in the films. And thank you for your kind courage.

B (100:14)

Thank you.

A (100:16)

A lot of people call me brave, and I recognize that too, to its degree. But for you to be someone who grew up how you did, to be a woman of color, to be an immigrant, to be a Muslim, and to have the courage to sit in the cars and the rooms and the places that you've been it motivates me so much to hold more because I can. And there were moments where I would watch your work and just say, this is the bravest woman I've ever seen. Like, I would be afraid to be in these rooms. And your. I hate to use the word radical, but it's the one I have right now. But your radical courage and your radical love is truly, it's changed my life and it's changed my perspective and how I carry myself online quite a bit. And I just want to thank you for your work.

B (101:08)

Work, my goodness, thank you. I mean, I just gotta make me cry, but I know I've been tearing up this last. Thank you for everything you're doing. Truly, truly, thank you for everything you're doing. And thank you most of all for who you are because you, you, you really, it really matters. It really, really matters. You know, how you show up and it's. And I'm so grateful to you. I'm so grateful to you for doing what you're doing and how you're doing it. It's. That's what's needed. So you're so. What can you do? You're already doing. And I'm just so proud and grateful to, to get to be here with you. So, so.

A (101:41)

Well and for everyone, please go to Instagram and YouTube and follow Dia, watch her films and love somebody a little bit more today. Just, just let them be human. Even if you don't like them, love them for being human. And truly, the only way that we get out of this mess is by linking arms with each other and making our way out. And I will see you next week on Flipping Tables.

B (102:13)

This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Company.

A (102:16)

No matter how you do game day,

B (102:18)

on the couch, in the crowd or

A (102:19)

manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits

B (102:22)

right in with a full lineup of

A (102:24)

non alcoholic beer styles you can enjoy. Bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out

B (102:31)

for water in the second half.

A (102:32)

Stock the fridge for tip off with

B (102:34)

a variety of non alcoholic craft styles. Available at your local grocery store or online@athletic brewing.com near beer fit for all times.