The Ladies are Leaving- with Irene's Entropy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Flipping Tables – "The Ladies are Leaving- with Irene's Entropy"

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Flipping Tables, host Monte Mader engages in an in-depth conversation with Irene from Irene's Entropy. Released on July 2, 2025, this episode delves into the intricate journey of deconstructing religion, specifically Mormonism, and the transformative power of self-discovery and creativity. Monte and Irene share their personal narratives, exploring themes of fundamentalist upbringing, mission experiences, artistic rebirth, and the creation of a purposeful life beyond religious confines.

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Social Media and Deconstruction

The episode opens with Monte highlighting the pivotal role social media played in Irene's journey out of religious fundamentalism. Monte recounts discovering Irene through a Rage Against the Machine cover video on social media, leading to a friendship grounded in shared experiences of leaving fundamentalist backgrounds.

“Irene's Entropy is on with us today on Flipping Tables.” – [00:00]

Irene's Upbringing in Mormonism

Irene shares her background growing up in a deeply conservative Mormon family, where church life dominated her childhood. She describes her parents' generational trauma and lack of emotional intelligence, which led to a dysfunctional home environment masked by the appearance of a "perfect Mormon family."

“My childhood was dysfunctional in the way that I was one of five siblings, lots going on, and the church was our life.” – [02:13]

She discusses the extensive lore of Mormonism, including studies at Brigham Young University centered around Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, which left little room for questioning or exploring other worldviews.

“There's so much canon and that you truly can get lost in it your whole life studying and never question anything outside of that.” – [03:53]

Mission Experience and Its Impact

Irene recounts her mission to Tegucigalpa, Honduras, describing it as an isolating and intense experience akin to boot camp. The mission demanded strict adherence to church teachings, focus on numbers for baptisms, and emotional suppression. Irene details the physical and emotional toll it took on her, including exposure to violence and personal danger.

“By the time I finished my mission, I was just a ghost of who I was.” – [16:00]

She reflects on moments of vulnerability, such as crying on the roof and forming a meaningful friendship with a gay man, which began to challenge her rigid beliefs.

“I started seeing how much of it is about numbers because every night you're called, how many people did you talk to today?” – [22:47]

Meeting the Ecologist and Turning Point

A significant turning point in Irene's deconstruction journey was meeting her now-husband, referred to as "the ecologist." Their conversations about philosophy and logical reasoning sparked Irene's critical questioning of her faith, ultimately leading her to leave the church. She credits her husband's support as instrumental in her decision to abandon her fundamentalist beliefs.

“He was like, how do you believe this insanity? How does deconstruction happen for you?” – [30:30]

Creative Rebirth: Becoming Irene

After leaving the church, Irene underwent a profound transformation, marked by her decision to adopt the name "Irene." This name change symbolized her break from her previous identity tied to Mormonism and her emergence as an empowered individual. Irene describes how she began writing music as a form of healing and self-expression, creating the persona of Irene’s Entropy to channel her experiences and insights.

“I became Irene, and it's Irene's entropy, because entropy is the second law of thermodynamics that basically is this law that chaos and disorder will expand through time.” – [42:38]

Launching Irene's Entropy and Door Walker Universe

Irene shares her entrepreneurial venture of starting a coffee company, Door Walker Co., which embodies the themes of transformation and self-discovery central to her brand. She introduces the "Door Walker Challenge," encouraging individuals to embrace change and personal growth.

“Door walkers are what I have started calling my followers.” – [40:54]

Irene discusses upcoming projects, including music videos that explore her journey and collaborations that further develop the Door Walker universe. She envisions these projects as interactive experiences that inspire others to walk through their own "red doors" of change.

“You're surrounded by people who align with your vision and what you truly believe in the core of your being.” – [81:11]

Future Projects and Vision

The conversation shifts to future endeavors, with Irene outlining plans to expand her coffee business, produce a series of music videos, and create immersive experiences like speakeasy-style shows. She emphasizes the importance of owning her creative work and building a supportive community of "Door Walkers."

“The coffee company will launch probably next month. The music video series will keep going and then I'll start talking about the importance of the Door Walker universe.” – [65:56]

Monte and Irene also discuss potential collaborations, including a project titled "What If God is a Woman," which explores diverse representations of deity through music and art.

Insights and Conclusions

Throughout the episode, both Monte and Irene emphasize the significance of choosing oneself and the transformative power of embracing change. They advocate for creating personal meaning and purpose beyond rigid doctrinal beliefs, highlighting how art and intentionality can heal and shape culture.

“It is never a mistake to choose yourself. It's the best decision that you could possibly make.” – [81:17]

Irene reinforces the message that personal growth and self-discovery are ongoing processes, encouraging listeners to relentlessly pursue their true selves and support others in their journeys.

“Relentlessly pursue yourself.” – [82:24]

Notable Quotes

• “I am Irene. And it's Irene's entropy.” – [42:42]
• “Let them walk through that door themselves.” – [40:54]
• “Curiosity is central to mine.” – [69:46]

Conclusion

"The Ladies are Leaving- with Irene's Entropy" offers a profound exploration of leaving behind fundamentalist beliefs, the challenges of deconstructing religion, and the empowering journey towards self-identity and creative expression. Monte Mader and Irene's candid dialogue provides valuable insights and inspiration for listeners navigating similar paths of personal transformation and seeking to build a life aligned with their true selves.

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Where to Find Irene's Entropy

Listeners interested in following Irene’s journey or supporting her projects can visit Irene's Entropy Website and DoorWalkerCo.com. Irene is actively engaged in performing at private shows, retreats, and house concerts, and is building her brand through both music and entrepreneurial ventures.

Join the Conversation

For more episodes and updates, listeners are encouraged to follow Flipping Tables on social media and support through Patreon, where they can access ad-free content and exclusive bonus materials.

Transcript

[A]

Social media can be a hellscape, but also it can be pretty cool sometimes. And long before anyone knew who I was or what my story was, my journey out of deconstruction. Social media was a big part of my deconstruction. It was a big part of exploring and finding new music. A couple years ago, I find a video of this artist covering Rage against the Machine, which happens to be my second favorite band of all time. I actually flew up to New York specifically to go to a sold out show in, in Madison Square Gardens of Rage. I crowd surfed to guerrilla radio and promptly got thrown out. But it was worth it. I start following this artist, love her vibe, love what she's doing, realize that she's an ex fundamentalist as well, except an ex fundamentalist from Mormonism. So I'm watching her deconstruction and the music we love. And now she's here on the show with me today. And we've now become friends and share such a similar story in such a strange way. And it's one of the many, many stories I have now of where social media brought someone really incredible into my life. So today on Flipping Tables, we're going to talk about deconstructing religion, what a cult like mindset looks like, how it affects you, how that influences art, our own journeys. Irene's Entropy is on with us today on Flipping Tables.

[B]

Hey, girl. Hey. Hey. I did not know that that's originally why you started following me. Yeah. I'm trying to think of when I covered Rage.

[A]

It was a while ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you had also messaged me about something and that's when I went to your page and the first video I saw was you covering Rage.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I was like, yes. Don't need to see anything else. Yes.

[B]

How beautiful that I got to cover Rage with you the last couple days.

[A]

Yeah. So we, my band had two shows this past weekend and Irene came and played with us on both shows.

[B]

Yeah. We got to do Bulls on Parade, Killing in the name. It's very wholesome.

[A]

It's a good time. So wholesome. So obviously I know who you are and we've talked extensively about your story. Where I'd like to jump off is listeners who don't know who you are really talk about first your story, like how you grew up, how you ended up leaving fundamentalism, and then we'll get into how that led to art.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I think that as you said on social media, it can be such a big animal, a beast, because people tend to just project their own feelings onto you of what they think you represent. And for the longest time on the Internet, I was kind of known, I think, as this ex Mormon girl. And to me that's not the case. That's not the biggest part of my identity. It is a part of who I am. But I talk more so about the struggle of the change of identity because at the end of the day, my story is that my parents came from generational trauma and I grew up in a world where they did not have the tools to parent me with emotional intelligence. And therefore the church was used as the tool to raise me, could have been anything else happened to be Mormonism. And so my childhood was dysfunctional in the way that I was one of five siblings, lot going on, and the church was our life. And specifically because my parents did not have education, I. I don't think I had a window into any other way that life could be lived. Like, so Mormonism, it was just this tunnel vision of making sure that I was the most obedient and faithful. I was very scrupulous. I think that is the word scrupulosity in my scripture studies. And I ended up going to BYU and all of my classes were in Joseph Smith, book of Mormon 1, book of Mormon 2, Jesus Christ and the everlasting Gospel. I took Arabic classes on Judaism, Islam. Basically everything that I've heard from your story, it's like the mirrored version over in Mormonism.

[A]

There's so much lore.

[B]

Yes, yes. That's the thing about Mormonism is you can get lost your entire life in the lore of not just Joseph Smith, but then, you know, the gold plates and the angel and the Book of Mormon. It's like this whole other book series, if you will, to like dig into. And then there's cross references between the Book of Mormon and the Bible and Doctrine and Covenants. There's just so much canon and that you truly can get lost in it your whole life studying and never question anything outside of that. So that, that was my childhood. Very, very similar in the. In the way of just Mormonism was my life, but I also had a normal ish childhood where I did go to public school. My father was very conservative in the way that I remember. One time I came home from school and I started talking about a lesson that I learned. And he said, we need to unteach you the things that you have learned at school because they are incorrect and we will teach you the truth here. What was the lesson? I don't remember. I remember one time in third grade I came home And I was angry because I just learned about the rainforests and about pollution. And I started talking about how I hate the truckers. There's so much exhaust and there's so much this. And they're like, oh, no, no, no. You can't fall for this liberal agenda, and global warming isn't real, and we need to sit you down and correct all of these teachings. And also the connotation that education at a higher level was not. You had to be so careful because if you went to college, the liberals would take over your mind.

[A]

And the bastions of indoctrination.

[B]

Yeah. So I only applied to two schools, Brigham Young University in Provo and Brigham Young University in Idaho. And if I didn't get in, then I just wasn't gonna go to school. Probably I didn't apply anywhere else. Yeah. So, I mean, other details from my childhood that are probably really important is I experienced sexual abuse in the church at a young age, around 7 years old. And that deeply affected me later in life when I started dealing with that trauma. And just in general, like, the same. Similar to what I've heard you talk about. Things in my home life were so much fighting, so much chaos, and people weren't really connected. I think one of the hardest things for me to describe to people is that we were this. This perfect Mormon family at church. But I didn't actually have this true, loving, unconditional love, family connection to my family. I didn't realize that until much later when I started deconstructing that we were just pawns in this chess game. We were just pieces of a puzzle that was going to create this eternal family. And in the midst of that, somewhere along the way, the idea of having true, unconditional love for my family, that just didn't develop in my childhood. And so when I became estranged from my family, people always are like, oh, it must have been so hard. And it's like, actually, it wasn't. Yeah.

[A]

Kind of just felt that way to begin with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And your dad was a real hardline, conservative Mormon, correct? Like polygamy and the whole.

[B]

Absolutely. I. Stories. I don't know if I've talked about this publicly, but stories that I later learned about my dad, where we would go over to this one woman's house and she. We would call her aunt. She was. She was our aunt. And I later learned from others that my dad wanted her as this second wife in the afterlife. Polygamy is alive and well in the afterlife in mainstream Mormonism. And. And my mom knew this. And so I can't imagine, like, my mom's heartbreaking as us kids are going over to our aunt's house to play and my dad is spending time with her. And then at some point, I do believe that my dad was having an affair and my mother and my father almost got divorced. And it was all hidden from us kids, but. So very dysfunctional family home. But yes, believed in polygamy as well as when I was young. Um, like, I remember going to middle school one day and telling this kid next to me in the computer lab, I had just learned that, like, black people were descendants of Cain and that black people were cursed with dark skin. Like, just outlandish things.

[A]

Well, and it wasn't until recently that Mormons allowed for was. It's just recently that it was like black people were allowed to serve in the church.

[B]

1978.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So in the musical in 1978, God gave rights to black people. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And we mentioned this this weekend because we've spent the whole weekend together. But how convenient that Joseph Smith, who was clearly a racist con man and was also a pedophile, designs a religion where he gets to marry as many minors as he wants. He gets to change the rules whenever prophecy shows up. And God hates black people. It's just. But it's such a mirror image of evangelicalism. Cause one of the things that another person I interviewed brought up that I'd forgotten about was that the American Constitution is not a religious document. It mentions religion once in swearing in presidents, but a different constitution that was very, very religious was the Confederate Constitution. And so it's just this very. It's this interesting way of taking God and God hating the same people you hate and making you better. And. Yeah, you know, white is right.

[B]

And. Well, you know, that wasn't until. So when Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, there's this line that says that basically the white people were white and delightsome, and then the other people were cursed with dark skin. And that's where I really believe that Native Americans came from. That Native Americans were these white Jews that sailed across the ocean. And two of the brothers were so wicked that they got cursed with dark skin. And their lineage is the Native Americans we have today.

[A]

And so that's a little surprise.

[B]

I didn't know when I. When I served my Mormon mission, I. I was teaching people in Central America that this was their heritage.

[A]

Oh, yeah, they were white Jews that sailed across the ocean on a barge.

[B]

On a. Yeah, on a ship. Yeah. The barges were the Jaredites. They came much earlier, after the Tower of Babel, and that was a whole other thing of Native American civilization. And then they were wiped off the face of the earth. And then Lehi and his family came over for the second round of Native Americans, basically. Wow.

[A]

So tell us about the Mormon mission. Both, like, what is that within the church and then your experience with it.

[B]

Yeah. So obviously growing up in a very conservative family, I mean, for young men, there's no choice. Like, you will go. And when I was a young girl, women served at the age of 21. And at that point, it's kind of like a. If you're not married by the age.

[A]

Of 21, what's wrong with you?

[B]

Kind of like a spinstress. And so you, you probably aren't like, you only go serve your mission if you couldn't find a husband, basically. So I wasn't really planning on going until I think I was around 14 or 15. And the, they changed the age because I honestly think there weren't enough missionaries that were going to serve. They were losing, losing their soldier stock. So they changed the age for women to serve at 19 and boys at 18. And that totally changed my world. I was like, now I know I will serve a mission. And so at 19, I went to Brigham Young University for a year. It was totally just kind of a blow off year for me of just nothing but religious classes. And then I was playing rugby on the rugby team and. Sidebar conversation. We should talk about that. My youth, I was so masculine in my youth because I wanted to be like the men so much because they had power and women were not respected and they did not have power. And so I was such a tomboy and masculine. I had a motorcycle and I played rugby.

[A]

And I was the same growing up. A strong motivation for my tomboyishness throughout, like, especially through high school until college, was because I was like, I, I want to have rights, I want to have power. I want to be able to make decisions. I want to be a person and not just this. Well, your, your job in life is to get married and have as many kids as possible and serve your husband.

[B]

And I hated the fake smiles, I hated the pastel suits, I hated the voice, the voice secretary voice, the Mormon women as they spoke to me, I, I just praise the Lord. I, I could not, I could not sign up to that. And so I would not subscribe. So I, no, thanks. Yeah. And I mean, people look at me now and I have this very more feminine presence. But I never got asked to a dance. I never got Asked out, I was this chunky tomboy. And then I had my bulk phase and I was like, I just was under £200 and I was playing rugby and my motorcycle anyways, whole thing, so. But on the side of that, I also thought if I could out study the boys, that that would somehow elevate me in the eyes of God or in my own self worth. And so I went to serve my Mormon mission. And you don't choose where you go. So I turned in my papers and all I wrote was the phrase, because you can write a phrase to the brethren. And I wrote to the brethren, I am an ox, put me to work. And I got sent to Tegucigalpa, Honduras. And it's, it's crazy. You're just 19, you pack two suitcases, you go to the mission training center, which is extremely, I look back now.

[A]

Let's dive into that. I want to talk about the mission training center.

[B]

Yeah, so mission training center is exactly what you think. Like it's like this compound in. I went to Mexico City. And you're given this rigorous schedule very similar to like boot camp. Like you get up 6am, you work out and then you have your classes, you're learning the language of whatever country you're going to. And then you go to these classes on how to teach the lessons. You have these pamphlets and you have to teach the lessons in order and then you're given these fake investigators of the church and you have to teach these fake, they're obviously Mormon, but you have to teach them so that they feel the spirit. And then you challenge them to baptism. And it's kind of this challenge of like, can you bring the spirit into the room and make this person cry and make them feel the spirit and then they'll say yes to baptism. And like you feel the spirit swell within you and like it's precursor training and brainwashing you of all other emotions or the ability to think with common sense. And then at the end of the day you're exhausted, you're brought into this theater and then this big screen is on and the apostles are talking to you, giving you these lessons of, you know, cast aside your nets, you are fishers of men, you are soldiers for God, you have this power, right? I cannot believe you have these 18 year old boys and these 19 year old girls, but especially the boys, they're just pumped full of this ego that you have the power, the priesthood, you can command the lame to walk if God so chooses to move through you with this power. Like you are Here on this earth at this time. So it's this environment where you just. You lose the ability, one, to emotionally regulate yourself. If you had that ability before. I did. Not even going into that. And we should talk about this later as well. My inability to regulate my emotions and the extremes with which I felt emotion and how that related to the atonement of Jesus. Jesus Christ. Talk about that later. But so anyways, you lose the ability to emotionally regulate and you feel all emotions through this lens of what you are taught is the spirit, and you kind of lose your common sense. And then you're made to feel like you're. You're powerful, the angels are protecting you.

[A]

And you're isolated and you're tired.

[B]

Oh, and you can't speak to your family. Yep. So there was no electronics, except for one hour once a week, you could write emails home to your family. And so that's the other part of my story that gets attention and speaks to the level of belief that my family had. Because I was going to Tegucigalpa, and that at one time was like the murder capital of the world. It's just so much violence and gang activity. And my mom wrote me an email saying, you know, like, esther, if you perish, you perish, I'll be so proud of you, and I'll see you in the celestial kingdom. And at the time when I got that email, you know, I was so proud, I almost started crying right there. I was just like, I am like, Isaac. Yeah.

[A]

And that's exactly what I was gonna say. Talk about Abraham and Isaac, sacrificing Isaac.

[B]

Jeez. And so to me, it was like this great. I was, like, set free because I had actually dreamed of having these hardships on my mission. Martyrdom. Right. The closer I got to being a martyr, or the closer I got to descending below all things like Christ did, the closer I could feel to him, and the closer I could feel the atonement. And so to me, it was like this extreme blessing of, like, now that I know that my family will celebrate me from this martyrdom, I went into my mission full stop, not caring if I died. And I think that that's very different than most young Mormon kids. I was at a different level of brainwashed at that point. But consistently on my mission, I would put myself in dangerous positions or situations that I should not be in. My now husband tells me all the time, he's like, I have no idea how you made it back. I have no idea.

[A]

Especially, like, you know, for those of you that are listening Like, Irene's like this cute blonde.

[B]

Like, oh, at the time I wasn't.

[A]

You know. But no, you're still, like, clearly you don't belong there. You're in these neighborhoods that are so dangerous. And it's not just danger from, like, violence, but it's like, you can't drink the water. You can't.

[B]

Yeah. And not to be too descript for listeners, but it was quite common to be just walking down the streets and, like, threaten to be raped. Men would just pull their dicks out and just start. I, like, watched a man just, like, finish. And one time I was eating a burrito and this guy stopped to just whip it out and just start going at it.

[A]

That's disgusting.

[B]

And, yeah, there was, like, one day where I was chased by this crazy man with a knife, and I had to ask these security guards to let me in. My companion. And then we just sat there and sang hymns to the security guard until this guy who was like, tracing up and down, waiting for us to leave, to follow us, he went off after this other woman, and we. We quickly ran out and we escaped. Or just being in this room with. I was training at the time, so when you go to your mission, you get your trainer and then you literally just get bussed off to your area, and then it's just you and your trainer and you can't speak the language. And I spoke fluently probably within four months of living there. And they refer to that as the gift of tongues, that it helps you learn. But quite honestly, it's just a matter of survival. The human brain does amazing things when you're forced to survive. So four months in, I'm still 19 years old, I become a trainer, and I have this insane ego and no fear of death itself. And so I'm taking my trainee to teach lessons at night that, you know, places we should not have been. I remember this one guy, he invited us in. And you're technically not allowed to do that unless there's a woman, but you can't if the door's open. And so I made him leave the door open. But I remember he sat us down and immediately just, like, chills, like, this is not okay. I truly think that if I would have not have had the common sense to. And again, I still wrapped up the lesson with a prayer, closed my eyes, folded my arms, and, like, did a prayer. He easily could have gotten up and attacked us at that point. And because he was starting to say things like, no, I want you here, and I've been watching you And I've been this. And like. And like, stay. And like, you're safe. You're safe. You don't need to go. I want to hear your message. And like. And we quickly got. We got out of that. But we were. We were in there long enough and there was no one else there. And I don't know that it's one of my regrets is the danger that I put my companions in. And that particular companion, she was from Guatemala, and she has since passed away at a very young age. And I never got to tell her I was sorry that I put her in these positions anyways. Yes. So the continuation of the mission, I think I just got deeper and deeper into the. So disconnected from my family. If there was any family connection, it did not exist by the time I finished my mission. I only cared about the church. I only cared about the work. I lost the ability to feel. Feel. I. I couldn't even feel the spirit anymore. I was just so broken as a human and especially with the things that I was seeing every day, you know, living in the circumstances of. Of poverty and. Yeah. So by the time I finished my mission, I was just a ghost of who I was. I didn't know who I was. My identity had been completely stripped and taken from me. And I went home and was just like, I don't feel. And shortly thereafter is where I met my now husband, who was studying to get his master's in philosophy or. Sorry, he already had his master's. He was getting his doctorate of philosophy and ecology. And we were working together that summer. And I think you just saw how broken and dysfunctional my mind was. And studying philosophy, he was like, how. How do you. How does your mind put together this logical thought and then just jump and circle back to something completely insane? How does that work? Because he had never been exposed to fundamentalist religion or cult, like, mentality. And so we started talking and he very much was my way out. Without him, I would. I would still be in. I think I would have found my way out eventually, but I definitely would be married and have kids by now.

[A]

And then four or five kids.

[B]

Trapped. Yeah. Yeah. So. So that was. I mean, if you have questions about the mission, feel free.

[A]

Well, and so, like, the mission, I remember you telling me that it was 18 months you were there. What, like, changes, like, physically, emotionally, spiritually happened, like, by the time you came back?

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, physically I was. I was a wreck. I mean, I came home with so many stomach problems and, like, I'm sure I had so many like bacteria, infections and things. I still deal with stomach issues now. I have to be really careful about what I eat. But I had like this fungus growing in my knees at one point from kneeling on all these dirt floors. I had this long scraggly brown hair that was like falling out and cystic acne. And I was 50 pounds heavier and just bloated and like mosquito bites everywhere and just as a zombie was really gross. It took a long time, it took an intentional recovery to physically become who I am today. A lot of work, but with that emotionally complete parallel to my physicality, the breakdown of losing yourself. It's why I'm so strong about, okay, Mormonism happens to be my story, but what happened to me is that my identity was taken from me. Anything that I was was no longer mine. It was consecrated or completely given to the church. I was a tool. And therefore I stopped caring about other people and their emotions because I no longer cared about mine. And so there was no ability for me to understand others. And I remember there were a few moments though that broke through. There was this one man that I met. His name was Allen and he was gay. But him and I really connected on a friendship level. And I didn't know he was gay until maybe halfway through my time in knowing him. And I remember going up to the roof to hang up my laundry because we washed all of our clothes on a pila, like a rock basin thing. And so I went up to the roof and I just started crying and I just bawled my eyes out for hours. It was like the first connection I had with a gay man where I was just like, why is this happening? Why did God do this? And moments like that where things just didn't make sense and the message I was teaching wasn't going to help. And yeah, and I just started seeing how much of it is about numbers because every night you're called, how many people did you talk to today? How many people did you challenge to baptism? How many lessons did you teach? And they keep track of the record of your numbers. And it's very much business based. And I actually started for a while referring to the other missionaries that were all about numbers as like Pharisees. Cause I was like, that's not why we're here. And why are we being pushed by our leaders so much to only focus on the numbers of baptism. And also I remember being told once that I needed to convert more men and more families because women aren't too helpful to the church and they're not making money and they're not. And. Yeah. And just random things like, you know, people are like avocados, and if they're not ready and they're hard and they're not soft and, like, softened and ready for the message, like, move on. And. And I just started kind of defying that at one point and was just like, no, I'm. I'm just going to teach about Jesus. I'm just going to do what Jesus would do. And I was kind of a rebel in the mission in that way. And I just didn't give up. Can we swear? Yeah, I just didn't give a fuck.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, my leaders calling me, and often because I knew more scripture than them, I would just quote scripture back to them of why they were wrong and I was right.

[A]

That's the whole reason I have a social media platform. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

No, I.

[A]

That's the reason.

[B]

I remember one time. So I lived through. There was a civil insurrection because. Oh. So I lived there when Trump became president the first time, and that was absolutely insane. Just like, not knowing who my president was, like, when I woke up in the morning and then, like, hearing about it only from the Honduran people and their perspective on Trump being president versus Hillary, anyways. But then later on, they had their own election and it went wrong. The wrong guy was put in and it was falsely put into place.

[A]

Like a stolen election.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Thank you. So the people started rebelling, and there were, like, tires burning. All the streets to Tegus were blocked off. And I was in a village outside of Tegus at this point, so I was pretty safe there. But Trump had somehow meddled in or was like, a part of the election. And so the people were so mad at citizens of the United States that it was unsafe for us to be outside of our homes because we could. We were targets. And. And so we were shut inside of our homes and couldn't go anywhere. People had to bring us food and water, and we had no electronics. And so all I could do was either read the Book of Mormon again or write letters home. And so I wrote a lot of letters home at that point. And what was the point of this? I was shoot civil insurrection.

[A]

Talking about Trump being president when you were there. I lost the.

[B]

No, I've lost it. There was something in there. There was a point to me telling you about the civil insurrection, but you.

[A]

Were also talking about how your leaders were caught up in numbers, how you were pushing back because of the message of Christ.

[B]

Oh, thank you. Yes. So eventually we were allowed out of our homes but we couldn't be out when it was dark. And so we, we could only teach to this point in time. And I remember I had this lesson with this family across the village, like quite a walk away. And I'm, I'm out teaching and you're supposed to report back to your leaders. Which my leaders were all like 18 or 19 year old boys, which is. Yeah, I have thoughts, I have thoughts. Yeah. Also just like a difficult thing to stomach as a more ma. A girl, I guess because at that time I was 20, turning 21. And yeah, I have to call this 18 year old boy. Anyways, I had to text them and they were like, hermana, sister, like hermana, you're not in your home, you haven't reported in. Where are you? And I said, I'm teaching this family a lesson tonight. And they're like, hermana, you have to be in your home. And I was like, no. And they said, you could go to jail. If you're not in your house by this time, you'll be put in jail. And I sent them the scripture of when Peter gets put in prison and then the angel comes and breaks Peter out with a sword. I just sent them that scripture verse and I made them look it up. Cause like they don't know what it is. And they're like, hermana, that's not funny. And I was like, I'm being serious.

[A]

Like quite frankly, it's hilarious. But also I'm being serious, yes.

[B]

Like if I go to jail, like that's fine and I believe I'll be okay and the angels can break me out anyways. So that kind of rebellious spirit that the mission became more important to me and teaching these lessons than even obeying the rules of the mission. So I was like extremely obedient and sometimes rogue and just dangerous enough with my knowledge of scripture stuff that I, I don't know.

[A]

So your husband that, your now husband that we call the ecologist.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Huge part of your deconstruction, how did that play out? So he's challenging how you're thinking. Cause he's like, you're smart, you're capable. How do you believe this insanity? How does deconstruction happen for you? Like, what was the breaking point where you were like, oh, the house of cards is falling.

[B]

Yeah. I think that happened gradually because I fought him. I was trying to convert him at the time and I had given him a Book of Mormon and you know, was totally. I was like, I got this. If I can convert this philosophy, this like doctor of philosophy or whatever, then put that one in the bag, you know. And no, I think our conversations, he hit it differently because he wasn't arguing about religion. He started talking about the process of how you put thoughts together. And very much like when you think or you have argument, it is premise, premise, conclusion. And the way that you're building this thought structure is you have this premise and this premise, but this conclusion is illogical and impossible based off of the two premises you gave me. And it was so different to have pushback, not in a way of, well, that's crazy that you believe in Joseph Smith, but rather the way you're thinking is.

[A]

Doesn't make sense.

[B]

Illogical. And I think that that's a huge credit to how quickly I was able to make the decision to leave. Because it was over a period of eight months that we had known each other. We worked together over the summer. And then I went back out to Utah, actually, but I was still talking to him. And at this point, I was deeply researching things that you're not. Things that I already knew about Mormonism. Like, I was pretty up to speed on, like, all the dark things in the corners that most people don't actually know about because I studied so, so frequently. But viewing it through a different lens and viewing different authors that wrote about the same subjects. Because one thing that the ecologist, which people watching, he really is an ecologist. And I just started using that as like a name to not use his real name on the Internet. But now it's taken off and it's like all of my followers know him as the ecologist. So it's just kind of stuck.

[A]

But, like, how did you leave? Like, how did all of that lead to you leaving? You said you're talking for eight months. You're now starting to research. You're asking questions.

[B]

Yep. So I'm out. So I'm out at Brigham Young University, and he is, you know, feeding me these other resources of these other books that were total, like, anti Mormon apostate literature that I never would have been allowed to read. And, oh, I remember what I was.

[A]

Going to say, keyword allowed.

[B]

He kept saying, look, you have only read this one perspective of how, you know, Joseph Smith was all the Mormons were martyrs. They were pushed from town to town. And he said, you must circulate the area. Here are newspapers from these exact dates in these times that you're talking about. What happened here are all of the newspapers and journal articles or articles like journals from other people that were living in Missouri in this time frame. Here are all the other perspectives circling around what was going on. It's not that these people thought, oh, you know Mormons, it's Satan. And Satan was encouraging these people to murder them and get them out of town. Like, no, the Mormons were doing terrible things. And there's this whole other side of the story that my mind was blown. I knew that certain events had happened, but I had never read the other side. And as you start connecting all of the dots, you start seeing reality of like, oh, my God, Joseph really was just this crazy gold digger manipulator, probably on drugs often. You know, he was known for always being drunk, drinking, and then like, opioid addictions at certain areas he was in. It's just. Yeah, I started seeing the other side and then it was like, what if. What if this isn't. But that wasn't my breaking point. I still clung tightly to my belief. What broke me was my family. I remember the ecologist and I met in Colorado and it was this decision that I made that I'm going to go to Colorado because I was in Utah, and I wouldn't let him come to Utah because I was kind of being like, spied on at that point. Like, people were reporting back to my family and they were tracking my phone calls and stuff. And so we decided to secretly meet in Colorado because I was supposed to go on a trip that weekend to Yellowstone with my. Whatever class I was in. So instead of going to Yellowstone, I went to Colorado and met the ecologist there. And he brought a library of books, duffel bags of books, and basically gave me a. Oh, he paused his doctorate degree at this point. He. He had stopped his doctorate degree to study Mormonism full time and the thought structure behind how Mormonism is taught. And so he brings this library and basically gives me a doctorate dissertation on. You and him would get along great, actually. Can't wait. Can't wait. Yeah. And you know that that itself was like just, oh, my God. I know that this is correct. And I also, during that trip, had given myself permission to try coffee for the first time.

[A]

Oh, my God, I have to hear about this. If you're not familiar with Mormonism, they can't have coffee.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is immediately would disqualify this. Disqualify me as a cult recruit. There's no way. Yes. She has made me wait all weekend to ask her about her first experience with coffee. So now I want to hear the.

[B]

First experience with coffee. So my first experience with coffee was panic, actually. We went to the Golden Diner In Golden, Colorado, if you've ever been there, you know, went in, I was like, shaking, like, just like, oh, my God, like, I'm. I'm going to do this. Like, to me, it was like this biggest step ever to drink coffee. And I remember I drank it and it was black and I, like, spit it back out. I was like, this. This is what people are raving about. Cause, you know, Mormons are generally addicted to sweets because you can't drink coffee or tea or alcohol. It's just soda. So much soda and sweets. And so my palate, like, could not take the bitterness of the coffee. But to me, that moment in time where I was brave enough to take what seems like this huge step that was actually just a sip of coffee, that was, to me, a red door moment. I'm going to go off on a side tangent here. In all of my music videos, it's this storyline where my world falls apart and I'm shown this red door. And this red door takes me into different landscapes of my own mind as I start to emotionally break down and face my demons. But the red door only appears when there is a moment or opportunity to change. And if you choose to change, the red door takes you into this new world, the next level, if you will. And if you don't change and you try to take the old things with you, the door doesn't work or it won't appear. So with all of this being said, I actually have brought you a gift today.

[A]

Oh, there's a present.

[B]

Yes. Yes. This is for you.

[A]

We're going to do this live. So those of you watching on YouTube, you're getting. You're getting bonus content here. Okay? So it's a. For those of you listening, it's a beautiful red card, and it's a red door. Okay. It's called the Door Walker Challenge.

[B]

Oh, no, no. Be the other side.

[A]

It says, dear Walker, in the brevity of this life, choices are all we know before we are swallowed up in time's shadow. Doors appear in our life when we are ready to learn and change. Becoming a door Walker means you are courageous enough to walk through the doors again and again. Cheers to you. As you relentlessly pursue yourself, May this coffee be a daily reminder that one sip can change your life. And there's a bag of coffee. What?

[B]

I.

[A]

It's red door coffee.

[B]

Yes. So it's actually, I'm changing the label. Cause I just.

[A]

Wait. This is your coffee.

[B]

So I've started my own coffee company. Yes.

[A]

If you were not already married, I.

[B]

Swear to God, I've been hiding this from you all weekend.

[A]

She's literally been in my one bedroom apartment.

[B]

I've been buying coffee. And I was like, oh, my God, I just want to tell her about that.

[A]

And on the front it says, sip coffee with demons. I'm so in. Some people refer to me as a demonic ray of sunshine, which I accept.

[B]

Yep. So there are. So there's different levels. So there's a light, medium, dark roast. And they're all named after songs that are a part of the saga of the Red Door video series. And so there's a quote from each song, and this one hasn't been released yet. It's called Sip Tea with Demons. And I changed it to Sip Coffee with Demons. So each roast is named after a chapter of the Red Door series. And then for the listeners, you'll know, because I'm also by trade, I studied mechanical engineering. And so there's another line being released that, like, the kinetic energy is the espresso, potential energy is the decaf, and then entropy is the cold brew. So it's like bringing in math equations to the.

[A]

So I'm gonna, like, put these front and center for our viewers so they know that they can buy them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is amazing. Cause I am a coffee fiend. I'm kind of. I have to reduce my coffee intake right now. Cause I'm getting ready to do a plant medicine journey.

[B]

Yeah. So eventually the label, it will say door walker. Because I really resonate more with the idea of being a door walker. It's an action to choose to walk through these doors and choose change and be able to face what's on the other side. So door walkers are what I have started calling my followers.

[A]

Oh, I like that.

[B]

Because you should walk through your own door. And you can't walk through someone else's door for them or with them. And that's really important to me is that the ecologist, my husband, never forced me or drug me through a door. He was wonderful about just walking with me to the point where I had to be brave enough to change on my own. And I think that that's so important because I've had so many people contact me and say, I have this person that, you know, they're. They're in Mormonism, or I have this friend, and how do I help them? And the honest answer is, you. You can't. You can facilitate conversation and help them ask why. Never stop asking why. But when it comes down to it, they must walk through that door themselves. And so that's why I invite people to be door walkers. And so it's like this legacy that is being started. And the coffee is like the souvenir of it, because coffee was my first, my first step. That felt so traumatizing and yet so bad.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And so one sip can change your life. I love that.

[A]

Oh, I'm so glad you made me wait for this story. That was worth it. I admit I was a little saucy about that this weekend. I was like, why can't you fucking tell me? I get it now.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So the red door moment happens. The mask falls, and then how does you, as a creative start to emerge? And now you get to tell me about your name.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because you changed your name to Irene.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And tell me that story. Like, how does Irene get born and how does that lead to Irene's entropy?

[B]

I love this. I am going to try to consolidate what I'm saying, because I am a nerd, and if you're not careful, I'll go off. So I have this breakdown in Colorado, and eventually. I didn't say this, but it was the understanding that my family would never accept me if I made this choice, that I was going to be disconnected from them forever. Because the belief system is that if you divert from the church, you can't be in the celestial kingdom with your family. Sure, you can have fake niceties here on earth, but in the afterlife, you're separated forever. And so to me, that was the breaking point, was realizing that there was no true, unconditional love within my family. That recognition compiled with what I had experienced on my mission and being disconnected is. That's what truly broke me in the end. So with that being said, after Colorado, I end up leaving. I go to Arizona for a little bit, and then I decide to move back to the Midwest to be with the ecologist. And at that point, Irene did not exist anymore. So Irene was actually a secret name given to me in the Mormon Temple ceremony. That was my password into heaven when I died. Yeah. So when you go through the Mormon Temple ceremony, you receive signs and tokens in this ceremony that you will do at heaven's gate, basically, upon your death. And after all these secret handshakes and signs and tokens or whatever, one of the last things that you give is your new name. So Irene was my new name. And you never tell anyone this name. It is a secret. You used to have to. They were called the blood oaths. You had to pretend to slit your throat and disembowel yourself if you Ever revealed the secrets of these signs and tokens in the temple. Wow. And so, I mean, it was quite serious, like, culturally, that you do not reveal this name as a woman. On the day you get married in the temple, you tell your name to your husband because he will call you forth in the resurrection, and he will call you by that name. But the woman never learns the man's name that is kept from her. It's just a good old boys club. Yep. So Irene was. And I remember being so disappointed when I got the name Irene. It was just like, oh, such an old grandma name. And so I get this name and it. But it becomes the holiest version of myself. Anytime I was tempted to sin or to be disobedient on my mission or whatever, I would think of Irene and I would think of the symbolism of what this name meant. And so, quite literally, Irene was the name and symbol that kept me in the chains of patriarchy. So with that being said, I leave the church. I'm done. I cast aside the name. Like, Irene will never be spoken again. No one will even know about her. Yeah, I very much thought of her as this separate entity of, like, who I was. And then I started writing music. The ecologist bought me an acoustic guitar, and he was like, you're talented. You have a story to tell. You should start writing your own music. So I did. And as I started writing, I remember we went up to Minnesota for, like, this getaway, and we were just in a cabin surrounded by nothing, and I just started writing and Irene came to life. I started telling the story of Irene from the perspective of this pure, innocent girl. More than a girl. It was an idea. The idea of perfectionism. The idea of being so spiritual and perfect and not stained. And then taking her on this journey of what it was like to go from being born in the walls of the temple to discovering freedom. And I started performing under that name. And then it just became more and more real that I felt more like Irene than I did my original birth name. And I legally changed it in court last April. So just over a year ago, I went to court and I changed my name as Irene because that was my decision, that I don't know where my life is going to take me. But I know that my purpose in life is to help others with building themselves. Walking through these doors, not being afraid to embrace who you were and not casting those things aside because it makes you what you are today. I am Irene. And it's Irene's entropy, because entropy is the second law of thermodynamics that basically is this law that chaos and disorder will expand through time. It will move forward with time. You cannot stop it. The universe is expanding as we speak right now. Irene's entropy is that the chaos and disorder and the expansion of my mind is the art that I give the people. And it is by embracing that chaos and that disorder and not fighting it that I have found and navigated my way to who I am now. And so I challenge people to embrace the change, embrace moving forward, because embracing the entropy is what will bring you peace. So that's why it's Irene's entropy. And it's very spiritual now. Like, when I take the stage and I say the words, I am Irene, and this is Irene's entropy. It is a message. It is my life's work. It is spiritual. It is the decision, the decision of a woman who cast aside her previous life to take on. It's almost like I've become this different version of what I was supposed to be as a martyr for the Mormon Church. And I've taken all that energy and just diverted it into the symbol of the shadow light version of, like, what I was, the more empowered version of what I was, I guess. So that's where Irene came from.

[A]

What I love about this, this because I was thinking I've been working on some content around how hell isn't real. Like, especially the evangelical version of it is not scriptural. It's not in the Bible. It's not what they were talking about. It's a manipulation tool to have people afraid of not getting into heaven or celestial kingdom. So as I've been talking about that, you know, we do have this whole, you reap what you sow. I like you taking your name that you're supposed to enter heaven with. And for me, the first thing that came to my mind was, well, she's just gonna make heaven on earth. Like, she's gonna make heaven now. Because the heaven and the hells that we create by what we do are simply reaping what we sow. When we do harm, we create hell in our environment. When we are true to ourselves and we're honest and we move forward, we create heaven. Even if it's things like, you know. You know, I've been homeless before. Like, things. But making those decisions. Where I chose to move forward was when all those doors open. Because instead of resisting the laws by which the universe functions and giving into them.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

We create heaven.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So that was the first thing that came to my mind was, she's Just creating heaven on earth.

[B]

I just. I have loved my weekend with you so much. And this will not be long enough for whatever time we have. But yes, I. One of the first songs, songs that I wrote actually is the last song on my album, High Water. The end of the album. I knew I needed one more song and I didn't know what it was going to be until literally we were recording in the studio and I went home that night and I penned this song and it's called Reap what I Sow. And the beginning lyrics, it says I was born in rose colored water it seeped into my eyes and soul But I didn't know the difference Being blind was beautiful but no amount of sweet addiction can change the force of reality in the bitter recognition only you can set you free and the chorus says, I don't believe in saints I don't believe in sinners it's not black and white in life it's like gray in the winter and I don't believe in the kind of love I used to anymore I don't believe in the kind of love I used to anymore I jumped ship and I still got my middle fingers pointed from the shore and it was. And then, sorry, I'm just, this is so long. It says, and it was worth it. If anyone wants. I'm gonna start crying if anyone wants to know it was worth it so let me reap what I sow and like, it's just this anthem of no matter what happens to me in life, I chose this. I chose to become Irene. I chose to take this name. And for good or for bad, I did it. Like, I was not guided, I was not manipulated into it. Let me reap what I sow. It's like, ah, I love that you said that.

[A]

We've been talking this whole weekend about how similar our stories are and growing up. And one of my big issues too, was I had an issue with how the church treated women. And I remember being nine years old and laying in my bed and I didn't know that it would lead to me walking away from the brand of Christianity I was given. But I remember laying in bed and being like, I'm going to think my way out.

[B]

I got chills when you told me.

[A]

That I'm gonna think my way out. And so when I, you know, and now, like, I get so much condemnation from people back home, you know, especially like, oh, you have all these tattoos and this ugly nose ring and this. But I have made. When I realized how indoctrinated I was and I realized that I had never gotten to put my fingers into the soil of reality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I also never got to choose myself. It was always, you have to dress this way because you're going to cause this grown ass man to stumble. And I'm like, well, he can shut his eyes. Let him stumble. Then he should watch where he puts his feet. And as I. And I was thinking about this on stage on Sunday because I've decided to go completely sober for a while because of getting ready for an ayahuasca journey as well as just health reasons. And so I'm completely sober, but I'm fully elevated on stage. And I was realizing I was like, every choice that I've made has been thought through, has been read through, has been studied. And every decision that I've ever made to choose myself has paid off a hundredfold.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And that being on stage is as close to heaven as I can imagine anything feeling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that was like. So when you again, when you said that, I was like, oh, it's heaven on earth. And these decisions, like, I walked away from med school to be an artist, and now I'm a deconstruction and political talking figure and an artist. And you've inspired me so much towards. We've been working on original music, but to really lean back in because that's such a part of my life. It's part of the universe that I'm creating. The way that you're creating a universe.

[B]

Yep. And quite literally a universe. So my door walkers don't know this yet. You will soon. So we're about to film the next music video, which I would love if you came up and worked hard.

[A]

If I don't have to be in Omaha, I will be there.

[B]

Cause I need demons. I'm at the point where I am. I have fought my demons in the last music video called ptsd. And in this next one, I face them again, but in a different way. And I won't give too much away in the storyline, but by the end of this series, I become a door walker. I'm just learning until I finally learn to love myself and be okay with myself and sip tea with my demons, which is the name of that coffee. So that's one of the last songs. So at the end, I become a door walker. But then the universe opens up to where I've written other albums, where it's just extended storylines because I am able to walk through time and space for the rest of my music career and I can collaborate with other artists because.

[A]

All you gotta do is walk through the door.

[B]

What if I walk through a door and then I'm in your universe and there you are and you're finding this door, you're going on this journey or we have a collab or whatever. It's just like this comic book styled universe and there's backstory and there's Easter eggs hidden in different ones. And like, whoever watches this, you're getting the inside scoop. Because like, I haven't talked about this yet. It's literally, I'm at the point where it's all about to just unfold. The coffee company will launch probably next month. The music video series will keep going and then I'll start talking about the importance of the Door Walker universe. And I'm going to start doing these like speakeasy style shows where it's kind of like a secret, you have to have the password to get in and the red doors there. And it's like this place of like you bring your journal and you drink coffee and you just think about your life and what you are changing and moving towards. And what's so insane is that I wasn't planning on doing this for another two years. And it's literally the worst time ever on paper to be doing this. I mean, the tariffs and coffee and I quit my job as an engineer in aerospace. I mean, I just look back, I could have had the cushiest job because the defense industry spending is going way up. I could, I could have, in 10 years, I would have been making 2 or 300k, just bypassing all insecurities of money and like living a good life. But I never would have fulfilled my purpose. And so the ecologist and I made the decision to basically quit our jobs and go at this full time. And so it's, it's quite the leap. But yeah, so coffee company will launch. I'll start touring and doing these shows and just building the Door Walker experience. So that's.

[A]

Well, we already know we have to collab on God being a woman.

[B]

It's true. Should we tell the people?

[A]

We should tell the people. We should.

[B]

We'll tell the people. The. The idea first came from. I had just gotten done, I think at the gym and I was drinking a gin martini. I love good gin. And I had this line come into my head.

[A]

Sidebar. Really quick before we go further, when I'm drinking again, you and I are gonna get drunk on gin martinis because the gin version of Monty is literally the greatest iteration of myself.

[B]

Oh my gosh. Just a quick note.

[A]

Just A quick side note.

[B]

I love that note. Gin is my. Yeah, that's my thing. So. But I was, like, totally, like, in this sexy mood, and when I. When I drink gin, I actually. It's like drinking calculus or differential equations because I drank martinis when I was studying in school. That was like, my drink of choice. Like, oh, my God, just get through this homework. And so got to do this one thing. So when I drink gin, gin tastes like math sophistication, if that makes sense.

[A]

Bourbon.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's why bourbon became water for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is whenever I would create something or work on something, or it was just. It was always bourbon. So bourbon. Bourbon, to me, tastes like success.

[B]

Okay. Yes. So. So I'm in this. This moment, and I. I have this little, like, buzzed moment of this melody that's like. And I think God is a girl that likes to do math, and she works in the gym to get a fat ass, and you can't quite make out her tattoos, but you'll go weak in the knees when she looks at you. And it was like, I was like, oh, wow. Because in my head, I was, like, pushing him out. Yeah. Like, what if I'm just getting out of the gym and I just see God? Like, God's just working out. God is this girl that's just working out in the gym, just trying to, you know, get her squat reps in, and then she goes out to, like, smoke a cigarette or take her post workout. Like, and God is exhausted because God's just like, the fuck is the world doing right now? What are you guys doing? Like, I'm just. I'm just gonna go to the gym because I can't handle this anymore. Like, I just have to, like. So I had this vision of God as a. As a woman in my head, and I texted one of my friends and I said, hey, I. I'm writing this song right now. If. If. If you met God and God was a girl, what does God look like? And she gave me this response that was completely different than my own. And she was like, oh, no. God is a girl that, like, if you were to walk into a coffee shop, she's like a wallflower and she has this kind of curly, wavy hair, and you wouldn't notice her until you look at her. And then when you see her, you know it's God and, like, your whole life is changed. And I was like, hold everything. You just completely changed the melody and the whole meaning and purpose of the song. Like, I was gonna write it as this almost, like, sexualized Badass chick song. Yeah. And when she said that, like, I have to write this, I have to do it. So I wrote this song that is from the perspective of meeting God at a coffee shop in la. And I asked my friend, I said, okay, if you could take God out for, would it be coffee, wine, where would you take God on a date? And she gave me a specific restaurant in la. And she said, I would take God here. I would ask for Pinot Noir. And I was like, what would be your one question that you ask God? And she said, I would. Well, you'll have to listen to the song. I'm not gonna tell you, but. So I asked Monty this question, this idea of if you met God and God was a girl or a woman, what does she look like?

[A]

So for those of you that were watching animated feature films in the early 2000s, in 2003, there was a Sinbad animated feature film. And the villain is Eris, the goddess. And Eris, within the animated film, she's got this jet black hair and this sharp, angular face. These beautiful. She's gorgeous. So when Irene asked me this, I said, well, God looks like Eris, except that her skin, like, part of it is fish scales. And she's got reptilian scales and animal prints. She's got all these textures of the animals of Earth. And she's beautiful and seductive and powerful, and she's really tall. And that was the vision of, like, if God was a woman. That's what she looks like to me. But in my vision of her, she's there and she stands there. Obviously, if you saw someone that has animal skin, you're gonna notice her, but it's not until you're ready to notice her that you see her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, same thing you asked me. I would take her out for a glass of wine, obviously. And I also said, Pinot Noir. It's Pinot Noir. I'm taking her out for wine. And it has been the most fun question to ask people and entertain this whole weekend.

[B]

We went out to dinner and we asked the waitress. The waitress. We were out to dinner with another person and we asked them, and they said, oh, God is like Professor McGonagall. And I would take her out for tea, obviously. And then we asked the waitress, and she said, God is a black woman with box braids, and she's just powerful. And you look in her eyes and they're big and brown and, you know. And she said. And I would.

[A]

She's got this beautiful smile with the whitest teeth. You've Ever seen.

[B]

Yep. And she said I would take her out for a glass of wine and a cigarette in Paris. And, like. And I asked another person at a show one time this question, and they said, dreads.

[A]

She's got.

[B]

She absolutely has dreads. Like, it is such a deep, personal question. Without asking a person about themselves, you can see so much of who they are in the way that they answer that question. It's like, it's been so cool.

[A]

So we're gonna, like, do a video about it, but we've been talking about writing a project based on ep based on people's answers of who God is. And this. Each song reflects the style and the story.

[B]

Different genre. Like that waitress that we met. Like her. It would be like a very R and B, almost soulful. Her is what we decided on.

[A]

Ere.

[B]

Yep. And, like, you could even get other artists to collab on it, but the idea of just God being a woman.

[A]

And getting a. I mentioned getting an illustrator to draw the different versions of God. You could make it into a calendar that goes with the episode.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway, so stay tuned, listeners, because this whole weekend has led to many future collabs. So.

[A]

So you and the ecologist have quit your jobs. You're pursuing this full time, making heaven on earth. What are the next steps for, like, this year?

[B]

Yeah, so I'll be in New York in a couple of weeks, connecting with some people and doing a couple of private shows. And I'm kind of looking for a band right now because my band that I was previously working with is not able to travel. So I'm just putting that out into the universe that I'm trying to find the musicians that align with me and my purpose. And then from there, I'm doing solo acoustic shows right now. We're in the Speakeasy type tour. We'll start doing some of those. And it's all very prototype right now because I want it to work like a good system. How do we get. Is it a text message? Do you sign up for an email? How do you get notified that a show is going to be in your area?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then just the building portion of it. Right. Like, because it has to be run like a business. But I refuse to sign to a label or to give away this creativity or this world that I've built. And so I've been very careful about, like, I own my trademarks. So I just got Irene's Entropy. Like, took two years to get it. But I officially own Irene's Entropy now. And then Door Walker or other slogans. That I use. So building my catalog of my music. I own my trademarks, I own my own llc. So like building the business of it has been huge. And this whole journey, so really throwing myself into that so that I know that the world I'm building is protected and then just letting the door walkers come, like, let them walk through the door. Yeah. And I'm really excited for the response to this because again, I haven't talked about it on my social media yet. This is like the first talking about it.

[A]

I'm do that collab video of.

[B]

Yeah, what if God is a woman? Yeah. And so. But I just think it's so aligned with kind of what you're doing right now on your journey. And I really think it'll be cool to watch how our worlds go and come back and crisscross because it's very much in alignment with your journey that you're taking right now.

[A]

It's very similar like on this. And it's weird because I as my world building has gone, it's in kind of this business external sector that relates to my music. And you've kind of done the inverse where it's this music world that all these other things are now getting pulled into, whether it's hobbies or business side of it. So it's interesting to see the inverse of that. And one of the things I just thought of too, with your door walkers. One of the cool things about this journey with social media, I never in a million years thought I would be talking about anything to do with the Bible on social media. But being able to just tell people, and I tell people all the time, I'm very cagey about my own personal beliefs.

[B]

Online same, I do not speak of them.

[A]

And the reason I am is because it's like, I don't want you to follow me. I don't wanna convince you to believe what I believe. What I would like to do is give you history, tell you, hey, this is what the Bible actually says. This is when this book was written. But one of the cool things about this experience, this road that I'm on right now is it's allowed me to take some of the flowers that I missed from my faith and pull them back in and say, you know what? This is a good thing. Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? That doesn't have to be.

[B]

There's a reason why people like religion. There is so much truth in what you can take that helps you to be a better person, to be at peace with yourself. It's when it gets Manipulated to. Turned into a patriarchal system, controlling that, it becomes so toxic and damaging. But I think. And this. And I was so curious when I came down to spend the weekend with you at where you were at in your journey because I do feel like when people initially leave, it is just this cut off and then. And it's just rightfully so. You have so many things to deconstruct and there's like hatred towards it and I don't even want to touch it. Yep.

[A]

And you're so mad about being lied to.

[B]

Yes. And then you eventually come to this healing where it's like, oh, wait, you know, I don't have to let everything go. There are good things and I can build my own world and belief system and I don't have to discard everything. And so. And that's where I'm at in my journey. So it was really interesting hearing your perspective and that we're both in this place of healing. And it's not like I hate religion or hate the. I do have my own personal beliefs, but I choose to never speak of them online because that is not my place to influence others beliefs because that's.

[A]

Where, you know, the dogma eventually overcomes the data. When it's about. It's not about. I love the study of religion. Like I have read the Quran, I've read the Book of Mormon. I am fascinated by ancient religions. And it's when it becomes this thing of you have to believe exactly what I believe or you're going to hell is the problem. So that's why for me, even with this, because I've had people message me like, is your podcast a religious podcast? I'm like, no, we talk about religion because it's an important part of my story. And unfortunately we're dealing with the repercussions of Christian nationalism in the nation. We can't ignore this conversation. I don't want it to be religious, you know, like, if I can, you know, have a coven of curiosity. My goal is to just help people ask questions. Just ask questions. Here's some information, here's some history. Here's how this manipulation works. Make your own decisions. You can take that and decide what you want to believe in. What I like about Door Walkers is when people ask me about faith in Christianity, I say, Jesus never forced anyone to do anything. He only ever gave invitations. So whatever you believe about who Jesus is, whether he's the son of God or a great teacher or just a person that we can learn from, he never used force. It's Always invitation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that my whole platform is the invitation to be curious. Like, that is the core tenet. The core, like entropy. So central to your universe. Curiosity is central to mine. I love that. It's like, this is. I just want you to ask questions and to open the door and say, what does it look like over here?

[B]

Yeah. And when that curiosity hits, I think giving people the courage to understand that when you walk through the door, once you see something, once you learn it and you know it, you must act. You must have that change. Otherwise, you're never gonna have another door up here.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Door's not even gonna work.

[A]

You're filled with so much regret. And we mentioned this. It's like, the reason that you and I have chose the lives we've chosen.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Never thought I would be an influencer. I know.

[A]

I hate that word.

[B]

I hate that word.

[A]

I hate it so much. But I'm like, I don't have. I usually say content creator.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's like, I chose this because I knew I didn't want to be 75 in the twilight years of my life, wondering what would have happened if I tried, what would have happened if I spoke up, you know? And even everything. Even with the music the band has done. Like, if you had asked me 10 years ago if I thought I would be performing in front of large crowds like we have, and in front of Jack Gardner and the Metallica crew in, like, I would have never imagined that that would have happened. But it's because of those choices. And it's like. And really, my motivation was I can't live with the what if? And even starting to speak on Christian nationalism and doing the things I've done online, I was watching this happen, the stuff that directly manipulated me as a young person, and I was like, no. And I'm also not gonna deal with the what if of, well, what if I would have spoken up? Could I have moved the needle? Could I have changed it a little bit?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And for every thousand person that follow me, there's 2,000 that hate me and 20,000 that don't know who I am, and that's okay.

[B]

And not only that, but there's so many people watching that don't even follow. I had a woman message me the other day that she was so excited, she finally got to click the follow button because she had finally divorced her husband. She couldn't follow me. Or I've also had young people message me that they had to create burner accounts or they can't follow me because if their family saw that they followed me, they would get in trouble. And that, to me, is insane. That again, it is not lost on me. The symbolism of a name that came from the temple that was like the holier of holiest of thous has now become a symbol that specifically Mormon kids can't even follow, because if their parents see that they follow Irene, then, you know, they get in huge trouble. And to me, this is just a secret wish for myself. I hope that they take that name off of the temple list one day, because I have made the name, I have given the name new meaning. I hope that there's just new generational Irenes that are born, that become a symbol of what it means to learn and change and relentlessly pursue yourself.

[A]

Yeah. And what I love about it too, is not just the heaven on earth, but this. And this is the same. I had this conversation with another artist who's local to town. Hopefully you'll meet her when you come down next time. She's trans. And we had this conversation of, she's like, I found. She was raised Southern Baptist. She's like, I found that many people are enraged by trans people because we actively take part in creation. She's like, we create ourselves. And she was like, so many people have been told, this is what you need to look like. This is the beauty standard. These are the clothes you can wear. This is the jewelry you can have. Tattoos are bad, whatever it is, that they don't know who they are to even begin to create it. And she was like, trans people. She's like, we know who we are and we create it every day. And for me, that's become the jewelry and the tattoos. And it's like I am creating this canvas. That was someone I fantasized about being as a Christian girl before the judgmental thoughts would rush in and I would condemn someone for having tattoos. But it's who I wanted to be. It's like, you've taken not just this name, but it's like, I'm going to create the person I know I'm meant to be.

[B]

And the cool part to me is that I feel like we're very much in a world where on social media, there's so much perfection, there is so much editing, and my body looks like this, and this is my perfect life, and I get to stay in this fancy place or whatever. But because I have built my platform off of saying, this is where I fucked up. This is where I emotionally had this breakdown, this is where I decided to get like, my followers have Literally watched me graduate from engineering school, quit my job in engineering, start doing this full time, building this coffee company. Like, they. They have watched me become who I am along the way. And if there ever is a point in my career or where I'm like, oh, God, like, I fucked my.

[A]

Fuck that one up.

[B]

Or like, I made a wrong decision here, I have the power to say that. And you can't go ahead and judge me. Internet, I have literally built my platform off of the mistakes I have made and the person I have become, and that we should be proud of those.

[A]

Things and open and open about them. One of the.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

When. When my platform first went viral, one of the best things I did. And I didn't do it because I thought it would be a good decision. I actually thought it was gonna shoot me in the ass. I had made a video about racism, and I said this one phrase that just. I meant it a certain way, but when you heard it through the video, it sounded totally different. And this girl very kindly commented saying, hey, just so you know, when you said this phrase, it kind of sounds like this. I know that's not what you meant. And I was like, absolutely. That's not what. But I went and I made an apology video saying, hey, I said this. Here's what I meant by that. But this is how it sounds. And that is not what I meant. And it's become an integral statement I've made in several videos now that intent does not negate harm. And making that apology video was one of the smartest things I could have done. Because now it's this whole thing of, like, I'm still learning. I learn new things about racism or US History every single day. And I still have to unpack certain things where I'm like, oh, wow, I didn't realize that that idea was wrong or I didn't. And now it's like I have this platform where it's like, I made another apology two weeks ago where I overreacted to something, and I was like, guess what? I'm a person, y' all. And I'm also gonna make admit when I make mistakes.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I'm gonna be a better person for it. And it kind of takes the power away from the gotcha mentality of the Internet.

[B]

There is no gotcha, because. And I keep saying the, you know, mistakes I've made. It's not always that it's like, mistakes, but it's just there are learning curves for all of us as we're growing and learning and changing.

[A]

Fumbled the football Here.

[B]

But instead of being this here's perfection. You can try to be like me. It's like, no, here's real life. Build and grow with me. And I always, I love saying this in my comment sections or when people give me their stories. I, I always comment back and I say, like, strength and power to you. I believe in you. And like that has become. And I mean it every time when I tell people I believe in you, I really mean it. I really know that you can learn and change. I know that I can too. We all can. Yes. And, and that has been so powerful. And not that you're ever bulletproof on the Internet, but in my mind, I am as bulletproof as one could be to the harm of what the Internet is, because I'm determined to just be this open book of what it emotionally looks like to just always be learning and changing. So I, I've grown to love my platform. And now that I've left my job in aerospace, I have more time to kind of curate how I can connect with people. Because there's never enough time. That's the thing. You can't talk to everyone. You can't answer every message, you can't answer every comment. But I'm really looking forward to building the Door Walker universe. And for people. If you're watching, the Ko Fi website should be out probably around the time this episode comes out. So it's doorwalkerco.com so that's where the coffee is. And then I'm thinking I might have some way that when you buy the coffee, you can sign up to get a text message for when a Door Walker show is in your area.

[A]

That would be cool.

[B]

I'm still figuring that out because I do want it to be like this, almost like 24 hour notice of the location. And then people can show up. So that's going on. And then the music videos, as those get released and doorwalker Universe gets built. And then I also, I used to run something called the Identity Project where women would write me letters about their identity before Trump or during trauma. And then after they left the trauma, what changed and what their identity is now. And then I contracted an artist to read the letters and turn the letters into art. And it was in an art gallery out in Utah. Shout out to Sage of Misfit Art gallery. That place was so cool. So. But I'm kind of gonna resurrect that, I think with Door Walker and have people write like their Door Walker letters and have it be this traveling gallery of letters of people learning and Changing. And the concert goes with it. You're journaling at the concert, so it's this whole concept. It's being built as we go. But I'm really looking forward to it, and that's everything I'm up to now. But you should. You should perform with me at a doorwalker show one day.

[A]

Oh, I would love to do that. I would love that.

[B]

With our EP God album.

[A]

With our EP God album. I'm so excited for that. And that would be so cool to, like, showcase the art that we have. The artists, like, paint these women or draw these women. And what I will say. One of the things I've been reminded of spending time with you is especially, like, there's. Well, there's two things. One is, as women who grew up in very strict fundamentalist religions where a woman's identity didn't matter, really, it doesn't. Like, that's just the reality of patriarchal religion.

[B]

It mattered if you aligned your identity.

[A]

With what they said your identity was.

[B]

Have kids and be perfect and.

[A]

And be the perfect wife. And, you know, and not just as women who grew up in those environments, but at least for a portion of our lives, we're totally 100% in and committed to these movements. I'm reminded that if we can change and we can change our minds and we can learn and we can walk through a different door, I believe anybody can, because I know how deeply I was into all of this same.

[B]

I was you. I love the word that's very mere, like, white and black. But, like, I was you in, you know, Mormon sector. You were in evangelical or. But we were so deeply entrenched. If we can do it, brainwashed. If we can do it, anyone can do it.

[A]

And I was reminded of that. And then the second thing that you reminded me of, because this. I would say that this is the most precious lesson to me that I've learned in my life through deconstruction, is that it is never a mistake to choose yourself. It's the best decision that you could possibly make. Because when you choose yourself relentlessly and viciously, over and over and over, you are suddenly doing work that makes you.

[B]

Feel like you're alive, and then you're helping other people even more. Yeah.

[A]

And you're surrounded by people who align with your vision and what you truly believe in the core of your being. And all of a sudden, it's easier to be open and vulnerable and safe with these people because they know you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're not some version of you that you think the world Wants to have. Like, if I could gift wrap something for people, it would be just choose yourself for a month. Just a month, and see how your life changes.

[B]

Relentlessly pursue yourself. Relentlessly pursue yourself. I always say that. Relentlessly pursue yourself.

[A]

I talked to a woman in her 60s into buying a purple pair of Timbs. Cause she really. She loved them and she was so giddy about them. And I'm like, yes, ma' am, you're buying these boots today.

[B]

Yeah. No.

[A]

She's like, I can't wear those. People expect me to look like a grandma.

[B]

And I'm like, absolutely.

[A]

Excuse me. Nope.

[B]

Yep. No, I. Yeah. Walk through your door and embrace. Embrace the entropy. Because you know what? We're. We're all decaying and moving forward and, like, we're all going to die and move on from whatever this form of flesh is that we're in right now.

[A]

And the energy is just going to change because it's neither created or destroyed.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It changes.

[B]

So you might as well, instead of fighting the entropy so much, we need order in our lives to some point. But if you can embrace moving with your energy and where you are supposed to extend and expand, then life becomes exactly what it's supposed to be. Yeah.

[A]

And it's so much easier. Like, even when things are hard. Like, you're talking about, this is the worst time for me to be releasing.

[B]

The hardest thing is always money. It's always money. But I'm telling you what. From the second I said I quit my job, I'm gonna do this, things have been popping up all over that have, like, made it possible. I mean, it's still not easy. Don't get me wrong. Like, I mean, it's so worth it. But I am truly living every day. And every day is a gift. And I don't take it for granted. And I don't waste my time because I'm so grateful. And it just makes life.

[A]

And it's an adventure.

[B]

It's like you're high all the time, but.

[A]

And you're working your ass off. Like, that's where I'm at, too.

[B]

It's more now than ever.

[A]

Exactly. I work more right now than I've ever worked in my life. And I've always been a worker bee.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's. I have never been so happy of, like. And even, like, I have my head buried in the news a lot, and the news is not great, but I'm like, I know that I'm doing. I'm living my purpose. And because I'm living my purpose, like, it's working. And I'm meeting the people I want to meet, and I'm meeting the people that, like, I need to meet, and stuff's coming together and when I need money, because I'm not. Like, I closed my personal training list, and I'm doing only what I want to in that space, and I'm pulling out of COVID band music, and it's like. But it's working.

[B]

No, it's so absolutely no. I think my last comment on that is, I'm so glad that I chose engineering, because the mindset of engineering and the math, like math and physics, has made me more of a spiritual person than I ever was when I was religiously following, you know, the doctrine of my childhood. Because the universe itself and the way that patterns and vibrations or entropy, everything's a thermodynamics problem. Like, to me, the more I learn and study about math, the more it's just like there is something.

[A]

And we were talking about how math proves that, you know, when people talk about good vibes or high vibrations, low vibrations, math proves to us that that's real and that makes a difference. Yeah, like, we can prove these things. We can prove, like, the energy of spirituality physically. Like, that's what I love about it, too, is I'm like, my beliefs are built around data, and the data lends itself to these things, which I find so fascinating.

[B]

Yeah. I'll just say my light reading. Like, this is what pops up on my. Like, suggested for you. I was reading on the couch this morning. Information, entropy, untangles, vortices, and flow in turbulent plasmas. And like, you read it. And anyways, just like, as you read into it, we're just constantly discovering more and more about how our universe works. But the more that we discover about it, the more it's just like, oh, my God, everything is alive and everything is communicating with each other. And a lot of times we are that blockage because we make everything about us and we're so egotistical as a human race. And the more you can open your mind to how much we all are one and we all bleed the same we all become the same in the end no one really knows but in the end we only know we'll go. Yep, that's another song lyric. But, yeah, I often just speak in my song lyrics. But yes.

[A]

So death by rock and roll Our other lady that we love so where can everyone find you?

[B]

Yes. So I just started saying that DoorwalkerCo.com will be where the coffee is, and that's being set up right now. I hope it's live by the time this airs. Otherwise Irene'sEntropy.com is where I currently post all of my stuff I will put out there that I have spoken at colleges. I do private shows, sometimes with therapists, sometimes at retreats. A lot of my gigs are acoustic storytelling. So if you're looking for someone to play at your retreat so. Or a house concert, I love those. I'm actively doing those right now. And then you will know if you're following on Instagram. I'm going to be better. Now about Facebook. That's one thing I learned from Monty is just being efficient and posting on all platforms. So anywhere you go, it's just Irene's Entropy, E, N, T, R, O, P, y. And then YouTube. You can find me, you can find those music videos. You'll also find my golf show where I interview people and talk about life and identity on the golf course. So. So anywhere you go, irene's entropy and DoorwalkerCo.com will be the newest place where please purchase coffee and support.

[A]

I will give a coffee review because I will be trying this this week.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

Before I go back to D.C. they're.

[B]

All organic by the way. And speak that center one you will particularly love because those beans are from Peru and it is a woman owned and sourced coffee operation.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

It doesn't wanna stay. That's okay.

[A]

This. I'm so excited for what you're gonna do. And we were both again. We were. She's been with me the whole weekend. So we were talking. She performed at the shows with us. You have to come back and do that again. But we also talked about last night how like we both know that in the next year or two both of our lives were completely changed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm so excited for what you're making.

[B]

Thank you. You as well.

[A]

This universe is so. It's so important and like as someone who loves music and art, intentionality is so important. And like you're so intentional and you're such. I'm a lyrics person. I'm one of those singers that I didn't start doing music till I was in my mid-20s and I was like, I gotta choose what I'm gonna be good at. And I'm gonna be a writer and I'm gonna be a performer.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so. And also because I want nails. I'm not playing guitar.

[B]

Guitars be damned.

[A]

I guess I'll play bass with these. I just need a pick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the intentionality and the truth it's so healing. Because one of the things that the US overlooks because we're so hell bent on capitalism and war that we forget that art shapes culture, art heals culture. Because it's a language we can all speak. Everybody knows, like my favorite band's Linkin Park. Everybody knows what it's like to feel lonely or feel unseen or. Or feel left out or feel like they're not gonna make it another day. And for you. Everyone knows what it's like to be in front of a door and have to make a choice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're just creating this beautiful landscape of why don't you just open it, see what's over there.

[B]

And we're all equal when we come up to that door. Yeah. It does not matter where you're at in life. You could be leaving jail, you could be graduating from the university, you could be getting a divorce. You could be doing any number of things and any walk of life. The door is equalized at every point in time. Because the courage it takes to walk through a door holds no rules or favoritism towards one class system over. Over the other. And it is our job and our responsibility to help people walk to that door and understand that you cannot force them through it and cannot walk through it with them. But we should all be creating opportunities to help our fellow neighbor to learn and change always.

[A]

I agree. And I've always believed that if your worldview never changes, it means you're not learning.

[B]

Stagnation.

[A]

Yeah. Because as the universe wants to move forward and you hold it back by never changing.

[B]

Entropy, Entropy. You all are gonna go Google that now.

[A]

And she's like, I get it now.

[B]

Yes. Look, look at. Instead of going into thermodynamics entropy, look at Shannon Entropy. That's what I have an equation tattooed on my arm here. Information entropy, I think is a valid, valuable study. Yes.

[A]

This was awesome. Thank you all so much for joining me today on this episode of Flipping Tables. Irene, thank you for driving all the way down to come be here in person. This was an amazing weekend.

[B]

It was the right choice.

[A]

It was the right choice. I said it too. I was like, oh, fuck yeah. As always, thank you to my Patreon supporters who make the show possible. You're also helping me do as Irene has done and lean into my calling. And if you want these episodes ad free, they're always released on Fridays for Patreon users, so you get them almost a week early. And you get all the bonus content and personal updates from me, personal chats and I will see you next week on Flipping Tables. I hope between now and then you find a door to walk through.

[B]

Word.