B (2:50)

Jesus was a revolutionary.

A (2:52)

Yeah.

B (2:52)

He was in the rebellion.

A (2:54)

Yep. And that was obviously against the state and against state violence and against religious persecution as well, from people who thought, well, we're going to impose all these rules, but we're not going to follow any of them ourselves. So where I want to start today, because I've followed your work and know a lot about you, but people listening may not. I would love to know your story, both your story of how you became an immigration attorney and your own journey with immigration before we really dive into kind of what's going on culturally.

B (3:31)

Well, you know, it's interesting because I don't share my immigration story that often because I. Yeah, I'm a European immigrant, so it just often feels a little bit odd to be sharing it. And I'm really excited for this invitation because I think it actually is a snapshot into how hard it is to immigrate. Even as a European professional lawyer. It was hell. I moved to the US As a Belgian on a student visa. I got a scholarship to go to law school, and then I stayed. I was able to get what. What's called an OPT visa, but I just want to also share that to move even as a student. And I was very broke, as most students are, I had to be able to show something like 20, $30,000 in the bank.

A (4:28)

Wow.

B (4:29)

Which I didn't have. So I had to ask all of my relatives to put all their money in my account for one day so that I could just provide that screenshot to. To the embassy at the time so that I could get my visa. And. And so I just remember the cost of admission being so high to come to the US Even as the most kind of privileged way to get to the US As a student with a scholarship to a law school, I was already a lawyer in Europe. I moved, and I completed law school in the US Took the bar, and then I stayed on what's called an OPT visa, which is that you get to work only in your fields. So it's not a general work permit, but you can work in your fields. Though at the time, no one was hiring, so. And I ended up working for free. For. At the time, it was the Sierra Club, so doing environmental law cases. And it was strange because I was doing all that work unpaid while kind of nannying and babysitting on the side.

A (5:36)

Oh, my goodness.

B (5:37)

Because the visa was very, very restrictive, so I could only work in my own field, and no one was hiring. And so at the time, I was even thinking, like, I don't know if I can sustain this. Then I got married, which. Then I adjusted status to a spouse, which is probably the easiest way to move to the US Is as a spousal visa, which I. You know, it's just also why it happens so often, because it's kind of like the fastest and easiest way. But I was kind of too young, but ended up getting married. And then I adjusted my status from a student to a spouse of a US Citizen. And then I went through my own immigration case while I worked in immigration law. So that was a really interesting season of my life because I knew the system so intimately. I was working on all of these immigration cases while moving through my own. And actually, my first time I applied for residence for a green card, I got denied.

A (6:41)

Oh, wow.

B (6:41)

And, yeah, I did. And then I had to appeal. And the reason I got denied is because my husband and I, we weren't commingling our finances, and that was for student debt purposes. And also because I'm a feminist.

A (6:55)

And so wait, they denied your green card because you hadn't. You decided you didn't want to mix your finances?

B (7:02)

Yes. So we didn't want to commingle funds into the very conservative system. That was very suspicious. And they didn't consider that a bona fide marriage. Even though we lived together, we had all of the proof. So we're legally married.

A (7:18)

What do you mean? Not a what? My. We're like, what, six minutes in? And my brain. My what?

B (7:26)

And mind you, again, I'm a European, white, professional lawyer, immigration lawyer. So I. The fact that I got denied, I think, showcases. It's such a snapshot and a microcosm into how hard it is even when you have the resources, even when you have the knowledge. So the reason we didn't commingle is because of student debt reasons. Because then they, you know, they take, like, the whole account. That.

A (7:51)

Yeah.

B (7:51)

Number into account. And so we had, like, very good reasons for it, but it didn't pass muster. And so we had to be able to show proof of our love, which is a very, very strange experience. And we even got tested on whether we really love each other. So, for example, you're put in separate rooms, and then you're tested on how well you know the other person to discern whether or not there's fraud. So I remember being asked, like, where does he keep the toothpaste? And then he was asked the same question without me in the other room to see if the answer is the same. So the weeks leading up to our interviews, I was just, like, studying him relentlessly, which is very weird. And I'm so type A, so I was just, like, grilling this man and interrogating him on, like, everything I could potentially know.

A (8:44)

This sounds like really bad reality TV because, like. And also, like, let's. Let's say the role was reversed, and it's a man who's, you know, the. You know, the. The immigrant in the. In the question is, like, they don't pay attention half the time. And it's not because he doesn't love you, but, like, he doesn't know where you keep. He doesn't know where his own wallet is. How is he going to know where you keep things? What? My what?

B (9:10)

Yeah, it was strenuous.

A (9:12)

Prove your love interviews.

B (9:14)

Prove your love interview. And then we had to get affidavits for. From people that we know. We had to get a whole. I prepared this whole picture album of places we've been. And you really have to document your love and your marriage as a case. You have to prove a case that you actually are in love and that you live together and that you have a shared, merged life. And so we had to. For example, I had this whole stack of documents about, like, shared utility bills or, like, money sent back and forth. And it was a tedious, very intense process. You know, I'm trained, of course, in documentation and note keeping, so I was good at it. But even for me, it was extremely stressful under, again, the most privileged context and circumstances. And so I got denied the first time, then appealed, and then the second time I got approved. At this point, we're something like five, six years in. And then I actually became pregnant and my child was born, which was very odd because he ended up with more rights than I did at the time as a citizen. And I, at the time was a green card holder. And I think about a year or two years after I had a child, I was able to transition into a citizen. And so I went to. And that was a whole thing, too, because then you have to submit a bunch more paperwork. And I think just it's important for the listener to understand that every step, and there's a ton of steps, requires an incredible amount of documentation. It's also expensive. You have to pay fees, you have to go to interviews, you have to go to appointments. Like, they really, really put you through it. Which is why this argument of like, oh, people should just wait in line and come in the legal way. Like, it is so heartless and insensitive and also kind of misinformed and clueless because of how unbelievably hard it is. And there's very, very narrow and few paths to actually becoming a citizen. The main one is marriage. There's a few other paths, but it's very challenging compared to other countries. And so I went through my citizenship interview. I had to do a test which is basically a little bit like the constitutional law, but then the 101 version of that. So I had con law in law school, and then I had a lighter version of that, which to me was doable. But I can see for someone who, for example, struggles with English, that can be a pretty, pretty challenging test. I would even surprise if students would even know.

A (11:51)

I don't think most American citizens would actually pass that based on reading level in general and based on how many people haven't actually read the Constitution. So on average. So when someone. And that's the other thing is people say, well, they should just come in legally, or someone can be undocumented while they are actively going through the process of legal immigration, because it takes years.

B (12:16)

It takes years.

A (12:17)

And there's a. Here in downtown Nashville, also from Europe, also white and. And became a citizen, but it took years. And she talks about, like, she had to have, like, a famous white male sponsor here in Nashville. She had to show 20 to 30k, like you said, in her bank account. And she's a gigging musician. And. But it was. She had to have all of this external help and, like, people essentially vouching for her to be able to do it. And again, it takes years. And so you can be, quote, unquote, undocumented, especially if you're a refugee or an asylum seeker, which are totally legal, while you're going through this very tedious process. And, you know, people get really, you know, insensitive about people getting married, but it's. It is the easiest way. And also to Trump supporters, I mean, I just want to point out. Melania real quick. Just want to point that out.

B (13:11)

We keep forgetting about that.

A (13:12)

Right. Like, let's talk about the anchor baby.

B (13:14)

There's the first lady.

A (13:16)

Right.

B (13:16)

Exactly.

A (13:16)

That's exactly what happened.

B (13:18)

She's an immigrant.

A (13:19)

Yeah. And people, you know, but it is. It's very Much. And you mentioned it, you know, your immigration story kind of coming from this place of privilege of I'm a white European and she's, you know, she's white as well. So I can't imagine navigating that process when English isn't your first language and you're not an attorney.

B (13:39)

Yeah. And the vouching. The vouching is really, really uncomfortable because there's a power dynamic there and there's so much abuse there because essentially what the spouse has to declare is that they will financially support you for, I believe it's about a decade. And so that if the immigrant goes on any sort of benefits, public benefit, the spouse isn't on the hook for that. Which again, dispels another myth that immigrants are such a drain on the system, they actually cannot even be on benefits because the spouse would have to pay that back. And if the spouse cannot, the spouse is someone in the spouse's family, the citizen has to vouch. So in my context, because we were both students, that was my mother in law, but it's a tough thing to ask, like, hey, will you be responsible for me financially for the next 10 years? Like, that is a big risk and a big trust fall for someone. And it creates such a power dynamic and such an imbalance, especially when there is abuse. I mean, can you imagine a man like, holding that over a woman's head of like, I, you know, like, you're only here because of me. And this happens a lot. And also in the employment context, another avenue is through an employment visa. Again, those are quite tough and they're usually reserved for highly skilled labor and only if the employer cannot find someone locally. But this also creates such a power dynamic with this employer because the only tether to the country is often the employer's generosity or goodwill to allow this worker to stay. It just creates such a dynamic for exploitation. There's other employment visas, but most of those are seasonal.

A (15:26)

Okay.

B (15:26)

And so people are expected to kind of like, for farm workers, all the food pickers, all the. The reason we have food is because of these seasonal agricultural visas. But there, those are seasonal and there's like, kind of like no path, very little ways to actually stay. Like, it's almost like they get used and then discarded and then used and then discarded. Started.

A (15:45)

Yeah, exactly what it is.

B (15:47)

Yeah. And so I then became a citizen, which was very interesting because that was 2018. And I just really remember the ceremony. It was very awkward because it felt very militarized and also very like we had to pledge and we had to pledge to denounce allegiance to any other nation, which just felt so, like, okay. And then we had to pledge allegiance only to the United States. And then there was actually a video of Trump himself welcoming us. And I'm doing quotation marks right now, but it was like a very scripted video, and it was so awkward because if we all knew his stance. And so you have him speaking to a room, like a whole conference room of thousands of people welcoming him. And then we leave the room. So you're sworn in, you leave the room, and then right away, there are two booths, Republicans and Democrats, where they try to get you to register to vote. And so they're, like, essentially recruiting. So they're recruiting new voters, and both parties do this, and they essentially have snacks, and they have, here's a bag of pretzels.

A (17:10)

Register to vote with us. Well, and this dispels another myth, you know, because there's this whole running rhetoric in conservatism, which, you know, I grew up in extreme conservatism. And they're like, all these undocumented migrants are voting. No, they're not.

B (17:25)

No, they're not.

A (17:26)

They can't. They can't. They can't access public benefits. You can't even get on them half the time when you're going through the process. Like, when you're a citizen. Like, you have to wait till you're a citizen to get to those benefits. Like, you can't get them as a green card holder, I don't believe. And you can't. Like, you can't vote, which is why they're waiting for you to become a citizen. And then the second you do, they're.

B (17:46)

Literally waiting, like, there. It really was, this feeling of a bunch of dudes with the baseball, like, catch. They were just, like, ready to welcome you and embrace you. And I have to say, the Republican booth had better snacks. It would seem more funded.

A (17:59)

Oh, yeah.

B (18:00)

And I was really surprised, actually, that. Because I would have assumed everyone flocking to the Democrat Party, but that wasn't necessarily true. Like, they had some really, really beautiful women on the Republicans.

A (18:12)

They know how to. So listen, the Republicans, like. And especially like MAGA Republicans, I tell people all the time, like, it would be a mistake to call them stupid. They're very calculated. They're very calculated. Evil, manipulative, but they are very, very calculated.

B (18:28)

It's the long game with them.

A (18:30)

It's. Yes.

B (18:30)

And they. Yes, they have. Yeah, because they have kind of. They're kind of stupid on the surface, but underneath, they have very Smart people running everything.

A (18:39)

Yeah. The Heritage foundation is full of a bunch of evil geniuses. Like cartoon villains.

B (18:44)

Exactly like. Yeah. And it's extremely Machiavellian.

A (18:48)

Yeah, it really is. And it. It's one of those things this really drives home again, they'll. They'll push this rhetoric of undocumented immigrants are taking your jobs and they're stealing elections and they're taking your benefits. None of which is true. Undocumented immigrants pay, what is it, $98 billion into the economy and into, like, in taxes, and they get nothing back. They don't qualify for any benefits. It's one of the few things pouring into Social Security that doesn't take out from it.

B (19:16)

Yes.

A (19:17)

But then they also know as soon as that immigrant becomes a citizen, they are there and they've got the hot girls and the snacks, and they're like, come vote with us. It's such a. It's such a. It is. It's a long con. It's such a con.

B (19:32)

And they know.

A (19:33)

They know they're lying through their teeth. Even now, they know they're lying through their teeth. Not that anything happens, you know, to them for lying through their teeth.

B (19:40)

But, yeah, here we are even in that moment, because I was profoundly disappointed by the Democratic booth. Like, come on, guys.

A (19:48)

Like, you got to stuff up a little bit. Yeah.

B (19:51)

Like, they just had a bunch of nerds there, you know, the intellectuals and, like, this isn't the time for this. Or.

A (19:58)

Or get both. Get both. Get the hot nerds.

B (20:01)

Get.

A (20:02)

Get the hot nerds. And get your bakers to make some good snacks.

B (20:06)

Some really, really good food. I mean, come on. Yeah. Like, we've got to do better. Like, come on. Bring a good casserole.

A (20:13)

Exactly. Like, bring something. You know, that's the thing. I think the Democrats. And I think that it's shifting now because the Democratic Party is dramatically shifting away from, you know, establishment Dems, which we need to. Because I swear to God, Chuck Schumer, I can't.

B (20:28)

Agreed.

A (20:29)

But there's the. I think there's been this whole kind of complacency with the Democratic Party, where they're like, well, we're morally superior and we're smart, so you should just pick us. And I'm like, that's not how that works. Like, you have to be compelling. You have to be compelling, and you have to have action. You have to do something. Because people, even if they don't necessarily agree with you on everything, if you take a hard line stance, people will respect you more. And I think we see that the most clearly with Zoron, where when he first announced his campaign, people like, this is crazy. You can't say all this. And he was like, this is who I am, and this is what I'm gonna do. And he wasn't afraid to use the word socialist. And it. There's a lot of, like, obviously he won that election, which was incredible. But even, like, a lot of conservatives respect him because he. They're like, I don't necessarily agree, but he came out and he said who he is and what he's gonna do, and he took a stand, and he's been consistent. I just makes me sad.

B (21:24)

And he allows for a climate where mistakes are welcomed, which I think is really important. Like, a mistake is an opportunity to learn more relating and more belonging, as opposed to, like, oh, you're gone forever. Which, I mean, you're in this work too, where you, like, I'm sure you find that, of course, we get so much pushback from Republicans, but I also get it from our own community of, like, I didn't use the absolutely perfect words, or, like, my post didn't encompass all of these scenarios. And I think there's got to be a little bit of grace of, like, we're learning together, we're moving through this together. Can we, like, 99% agree and still be friends?

A (22:03)

Well, and I think sometimes, yeah, like, the. What is it called? Like, the purity testing on the left. And again, coming from being someone who's on. Who was on the far, far right to now being a leftist is how I would, like, describe myself. Like, the purity testing is extreme. And I actually had an incident of this yesterday. And anyone who follows my Instagram will know I was sent this and I now know where it came from. But I didn't at the time. I got this. I got home from New York yesterday, and there was this huge box with the Duolingo owl on it. And, like, I used duolingo, like, in 2023 to, like, pretend I was gonna learn Spanish and then never followed through. And I haven't opened the app, and I'm like, what is this box? But the way it was taped, I was like, maybe someone just reused this box to send me something. But it super light. And I'm like, what is it? So I opened this box and I made a video about it. It's the Duolingo owl, like, on his elbow. He's just jacked and completely muscled up. He's got, like, defined cheeks, like, glute cheeks. And it's got a Friend. It is the most like. And I'm, I'm. I was laughing so hard I couldn't breathe because I had no context for this. I'm like, who sent me a body pillow of a jacked owl or with booty cheeks on it? Like why? Why is this here? And I made a video and I'm literally laughing so hard I can't breathe. And like my eyes are tearing up. And I didn't realize that my what my manager, my previous manager, cuz he just moved on to work with on a campaign but he had signed a bunch of his people up for this Duolingo PR promo thing. So I had no idea, I had no idea who sent it to me, no idea where it came from. I also didn't know that in. I think it was at the end of last year, coming into this year, Duolingo had announced that they were going to switch. They were going to phase out external contractors in favor of like AI workflow kind of administration stuff. Had no idea. And so most people, you know, got the essence of the video and they were like, this is hilarious. I needed to laugh like that. I needed to see you laugh like that. But then there's a bunch of comments of I can't believe she actually posted this with Duolingo and the AI thing. Like there was no, there was no even. Hey, did you know that Duolingo is doing this? Or hey, you know. And then I, I had to put a disclaimer. I'm like, guys, this isn't an endorsement. I was saying in the video, who sent this to me? Because I assumed a person sent it to me, not Duolingo. Also, let's, let's talk about. It was kind of just. It was a little discouraging because it was this one video where like I'm actually happy instead of talking about, you know, ice or whatever it is. And there was this immediate assumption of, you know, well, why would you do that? And I'm like, we could just, we could have a conversation. You could, you could ask me. You could just, you could just ask me.

B (24:50)

Like I really appreciate your jack pillow content.

A (24:54)

Right?

B (24:54)

Like I, it was so.

A (24:57)

And I really.

B (25:00)

We've got to laugh and we've got to be silly and we've got to find these little moments. And I think, gosh, it's just people want to belong and you know, you and I care about policy. We care about, about justice, we care about humanity. And I think there's just a lot of folks who don't really listen to policy. They just want to feel like they are. They belong and they're included.

A (25:22)

Yeah.

B (25:22)

And I think they're right. Really interesting just how everyone. Yeah. Like it's, it's. I've just noticed that this episode is brought to you by Nespresso introducing Vertuo up the latest in a long line of innovation from Nespresso. It's innovation you can touch, sense and taste in every single cup. With a three second start, easy open lever and dedicated brew over ice button, it's even easier to enjoy your coffee your way. Sit for yourself. Shop Vertuo up exclusive exclusively@nespreso.com New Year New me Cute.

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B (27:02)

We, we tend to push people out for, for kind of small mistakes. Yeah. And it's something to be mindful of. And better. Yeah. We need better snacks.

A (27:11)

We need better snacks.

B (27:12)

Girls at the booth.

A (27:13)

We need hot girls at the booth and better snacks. And it really is because, you know, and I tell people like, because with my platform I get a lot of people who are leaving nationalism and leaving, you know, these extreme movements. And I'm thankful that my platform is kind of. We try to have this soft place to land where I tell people, I tell people, I'm like, you have to be accountable for the harm you caused. And it is not queer people and brown people's job to educate you. It's your job to educate yourself and I will help you. But do not Put that on. People that you victimize. Don't do that. It's also not their obligation to forgive you. However, you, like me, can change your life and turn the ship around if you want to. So I try to walk this line of you have to be responsible for the choices you made and what you promoted, the same way I have to be. You can also change and learn and grow and do something different. Because if we just tell people they can't change, especially for people who grew up in these movements where you're in a high control environment from the time you're a baby, then we can't expect them to do anything differently. Because at the base of all of this, for all of humanity, is this desire to be loved and to belong. And that is something that conservatives do very, very well. I mean, to the point we just had that the major release of the Epstein files, where it doesn't matter that all of these conservative leaders are explicitly in the files talking directly to Epstein, saying the most horrific things, still defending them. They're still defending them because they're part of the in group. So especially if you're a man and you're a man of power in the movement, it doesn't matter what you do, you still belong as long as you align with this very specific set of values. And, and so it becomes a great place for especially white powerful men to hide out in, because you'll always have that allegiance. But they, they also hold on to kind of, you know, regular people that way as well, by by creating this sense of in group, whether that comes from, like, the way that they run their churches or these community groups, or the way that they kind of organize the demographic. And it's really unfortunate because they do make people believe that if you leave this movement, you're going to lose your church, you're going to lose your family, you're going to lose your community. And those hateful, horrible liberals over there are not going to welcome you. And, and that is a, that's a really strong hold for people that don't want to feel like they're going to be.

B (29:45)

It is scary. And I think that, you know, this is. It feels existential. And, and you know, we're, we want to. Yeah, we're a relational species. We're communal species. And the idea of like losing your whole family and then kind of dangling in the middle. Right.

A (30:01)

Yeah.

B (30:02)

Of, of like we, we. It's. And of course, I agree with you. We don't have a responsibility to rescue them. We don't have a responsibility that is their job. And also, I just. I think I'm just coming at it very pragmatically that if they're kind of dangling in the middle and they're not embraced or invited, the magnetizing effect of being pulled back into the cult is going to be very strong. Yep. And it's. Yeah, go ahead.

A (30:29)

My. My thing is with. With people like that, like, if you show me sincerity and effort, I'm going to stand in that space for you. And part of it, I feel like, is my obligation to do that for those people, like, as a white person who also participated in that system. That for me is like, I have to reach out and pull you in because I know what that middle space feels like. And it is really uncomfortable. And it is really easy to fall back into that. The allure of just. Oh, it's just easier not to say anything. The allure of just going along to get along because I feel like I belong is so easy to fall into because I, you know, and I get messages sometimes from people where. And this was really prior to what's going on now, but I would get some messages from Christian women who grew up in. Are still kind of in these conservative circles where they're like, you know, I really actually am pro choice because of X, Y, Z, or because when I had a miscarriage, I had to get an abortion, like, whatever the story is. But then they'll say things like, well, I can't say anything like that to my church because they won't let me stay. And so there are a lot of people that have these questions, even while outwardly appearing in the movement, who are being kind of held hostage by this false sense of belonging, you know, because.

B (31:49)

And church is often the only forum for community in a lot of spaces in the United States. And I say that as someone who's lived a contrast of a European life where, you know, there is kind of a central town square, the churches are empty. In fact, they're turned into nightclubs and bookstores. Because there's just that the allure of the community aspect has moved to a more kind of central, neutral space where, like, town events are planned and you just meet people in your town. But if in the US What I. What I notice is that the. The opportunity for communities more siloed, like, you have work, you have your sports team, you have church or your religious space, and then you may. Or you have an immigrant group, but there's not so much kind of merging of all of these groups. And if church is kind of your only Space of community. Losing access to that, to your primal brain is going to feel like dying.

A (32:50)

Yeah.

B (32:50)

And I just, I really appreciate your stuff story and I appreciate also like your place in the ecosystem because it's so unique and it's because, and you're really able to speak to all people in that way because leaving and questioning is actually risky and we cannot minimize that in a lot of these spaces. And I think it's beautiful that a lot of Christian women are asking questions. And I, I grew up in Catholic church, but I definitely consider myself pagan. And at the same time, you know, I was reading the ruling yesterday, this weekend that freed Liam Ramos, the five year old.

A (33:28)

I love this because this is something I was going to ask you about. So this is perfect. I, the, the ruling was incredible.

B (33:35)

The ruling was please lay it out for people.

A (33:38)

So everyone, Liam Ramos is the five year old that ice used as bait in Minnesota. If you saw the picture with the little boy with the spider man backpack and the bunny ear hat, it's Liam. And over the weekend he was freed. And this is the ruling that we're talking about.

B (33:53)

He was freed and he was freed in a way like I think this is, this is showing us our future. Like it, it to me it was a lighthouse moment like where the lights went on and we're all in the stormy season, it's dark and the lights went on. That's how I felt when I read the ruling. It was a couple of paragraphs which first of all it's quite, quite unusual because these judges really like to write and write and write or the clerks. But like it was only a few paragraphs because I think he understood the urgency. But in a couple paragraph paragraphs he made a couple things very clear. And I'm just going to paraphrase it in normal language which is basically that what they're doing is cruel. What they're doing is traumatizing children. There are less cruel ways to enforce immigration law, that they are acting like foxes that are surveilling the chicken coop and that, you know, and then he went, he took us down this whole journey around the Constitution and then the founders, the Declaration of Independence, we the people came in the fourth Amendment also like Jefferson's statements and quotes about like warning us about authoritarianism. And it was just so validating and it was so affirming because this is what we have been saying. Like this goes, this exceeds the bounds of what is legally allowed and it is inhumane and it is cruel and it is traumatizing children and it was very much just so. Like. It was such a. Like a. It was a manifesto, in a way.

A (35:40)

Yeah.

B (35:41)

And then he ended the ruling with a photo of Liam, which is really unusual to actually see a picture in a rolling. I actually don't think I've ever seen that. And. But it's this famous picture of him in the blue hat, and then he had these two Bible verses in there. And I have to admit that when I see Bible verses in a judicial ruling, I get a little nervous because of jobs.

A (36:01)

Yes.

B (36:02)

And. And all of the. Those sorts of rulings. There's also a lot of religious rulings that have been against a bunch of rights, Women's rights, of course. And also in the employment context, for example, there's a lot of religious protections that are actually steamrolling some other rights, including pregnancy protections. And so I was a little nervous, and then I looked up what they mean, and it means, let the children come to me and do not hinder them. And the other one means, and Jesus wept. And my goodness, like, I still feel it in my body right now when I'm sharing this with you, because. And Jesus web, to me, is such a. Like, it is such a symbol, and it is such a reminder of what Christ is about. Yeah. And he would have been wrapping Liam in his arms, and he would have stood between Ice and Alex and Ice and Renee, and he would have tackled the officer on the neck of George Floyd. He would have taken the bullets for Breonna Taylor. Like, he is a revolutionary, and we would be unwise to ignore that or neglect that he would have probably been detained and killed if he were alive today for being in Minnesota and supporting the rebellion, which is what he did.

A (37:29)

Yeah.

B (37:31)

And so it was such a. Like the. The circling back to Christ's original message in. In a country that is moving closer and closer to this kind of Christian nationalism. But the corrupted version was such a. Like, it was such a whistle to bring us back into the true tenets of spirituality. And I think what the ruling was, it was more than like, oh, they were breaking the law. It was also like, they are breaking the rules of human decency. This is a spiritual rupture. And so he cited the Constitution. He cited the Declaration of Independence. He cited the Bible. It was like this holy trifecta that he needed to get Liam free and to get Liam's dad free. And also, for me, as a lawyer who's been witnessing what's happening, it's just such a. It was such a. Like, I've been so tired because I see how specifically, the Supreme Court is all political pawns. And now we have a judge who's actually enforcing the law, who's actually enforcing checks and balances, who's doing what courts are supposed to do, which is to say, hey, hold on, this is going too far. The executive power is completely out of control, and you're going to need to sit down and go in time out. It was like such a grandfather that called them all back and said, no, this is not what we do, and this is not who we are. And it just made me really proud and it made me really sit with just. Yeah, like this beautiful Jesus verse. And again, I'm not a woman who prays to Jesus, but it just. I really felt Jesus energy when I was really. When I was reading it, and it just. It really moved me. And so shout out to. To him, to this judge. And in San Antonio, Judge Berry. And I. I just trust more and more of these will come.

A (39:29)

Yeah.

B (39:29)

And for that, we need to support these immigration lawyers that are filing these petitions, because it only works when these sorts of petitions are filed. But, yeah, it was very moving. I was emoting and crying and weeping. Yeah. Which I don't usually do when reading rulings, which I do all day long. Wow. This one really shook me.

A (39:52)

And it was so poetry. It was so smart on so many levels. One, it was so genuine and authentic and so beautifully human. But Judge Berry did something so intelligent by saying, this not only violates the Constitution, which it does. It violates who we say America is, which it does, but he also brought in Scripture, which it absolutely violates the entire mission of Christ. But by doing that in that way, in that ruling, took all of these power plays that, like Christian nationalism uses to defend itself. Well, the Founding Fathers, and we're a Christian nation, and the Bible says, took all of that away from them and said, no, it doesn't. It completely gutted their whole argument for justifying these kind of abuses against people of color and immigrants and children. And I think it was so beautiful. And it was also so smart. So smart.

B (40:49)

It was so smart.

A (40:50)

So smart.

B (40:51)

In fact, I would argue that this was the smartest thing to do, is to bring in Scripture.

A (40:57)

Yep, it's the same.

B (40:58)

And the Word.

A (40:59)

Yep, James Tellarico is doing is to take away the argument, say, first of all, separation of church and state. But second of all, the Bible doesn't even say what you say it says. And that's really what my platform was originally built on is like, no, it doesn't. And we're going to stop using Christ, who was this loving, beautiful, empathetic human being who stood up for everybody society wanted to outcast, who fought against state violence and against religious leaders who were hypocrites. And we're not going to take his mission and then say that like, you know, with the Department of Homeland Security releasing videos with a scripture over it with these like action style ice videos. No, no, he wouldn't. Absolutely not. And I don't think it matters if you're a Christ follower or not. Like Christ. Christ and his mission is something that anyone can support. It's like because of who he was and how much he loved the whole, his whole mission was love. And when you turn it into this weapon for hate, you're just being dishonest. You're just trying to get God to sign off on the cruelty that you want to enact, quite frankly.

B (42:01)

And it's a, it's a shield. It ends the conversation because then you're creating this wall and saying, this is my religious belief. You're not allowed to question or poke holes or challenge me in any way. And I see this all the time in my case, like they are justifying a lot of sexism under the disguise of religious belief, which is unbelievably frustrating because it ends the argument.

A (42:24)

Can you give me an example of that in your experience?

B (42:27)

Well, for example, like I have a few cases where, and these employment cases where a woman is fired for having a baby. And, and then the defense is like, this is a religious belief. Like we believe women belong in the kitchen and they shouldn't be working when they're mothers. And often this is actually by a pastor. And there are, and this is like why I'm nervous about the merging and the collision of, of the Bible and the law. It's because there are exemptions for faith leaders, for religious institutions, specifically churches, when it comes to kind of garden variety employment protections or civil rights, even sometimes where they are exempted from a lot of these laws that protect women, that protect employees because they were able to kind of lobby and get their way and then move their way through the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court says, sure, you get to believe, I guess the sincerely held belief, religious belief in a way is sexism. And it is in a way, like we, we don't want women to work, but they've been able to package that into a religious defense. And then you, the other side of that, you have women's rights, women's protection, women's equity. And we tend to lose that Argument a lot. Which, which is unbelievably frustrating.

A (43:47)

Yeah.

B (43:47)

And I think what he did, you know, because it's almost so much, it's so much more powerful to actually bring the word of Jesus back in than us arguing what we always argue, which they don't really hear, they don't really listen. They just kind of shut down because to them it's a lot of like blue hair, leftist nose ring, you know, ring.

A (44:11)

Well, that's why I use in a lot, you know. Yeah. In my videos.

B (44:14)

Oh my goodness, look at what. He did this. He also, he showed us the blueprint, he showed us the strategy, he showed us the way out. Like he showed us the way through. And I'm just, I'm just so grateful and, but I do have to say, and I, I don't know if you know this yet, that they are, the Trump administration is appealing the ruling, which would mean they want that boy back in detention.

A (44:36)

Like it's insane. Like it's insane.

B (44:40)

So gruesome.

A (44:41)

Yeah. But Judge Barry did it, right?

B (44:44)

He did.

A (44:44)

Got to bring scripture in. You gotta take their argument out at the knees. And one of the things I wanted to, like in the space of this, and I'm getting ready to go to Minneapolis because a lot of people are unaware, myself included. Like, I, you know, as someone who has never had to face immigration in the US I would love to just spend a little bit of time talking about, you're an immigration attorney. So in what ways specifically is ICE violating the law and what are people's rights when it comes to observing ICE or their rights? If there's someone who's going through the immigration system, I would love to just kind of give people some bullet points so they feel a little bit more confident interacting with this moment in history we're in.

B (45:27)

Yeah, I'll give you some kind of high level guidance. And I was an immigration lawyer for many years until the job became too heavy. But I have continued to volunteer in immigration centers and I just will give you a couple of, of highlights and then I want to share a little bit more about the cases I worked on as well. So what you got to know is if you're approached by ice, definitely do not run. Which is going to be tough because you're going to instinctually want to run, you know, because you're going to feel like there's a predator coming after you and you're going to, you're going to like your body's going to want to run and you have to really try not to Run, because the moment you run, you're essentially obstructing with justice. And then they're, they are allowed to kind of switch into a whole other mode which is like criminal. You know, they're just, your rights become more narrow and so you have to stay calm and you have to talk to them. And they're allowed to interrogate. When it comes to residents and status now, interrogation is different than detention, like being detained. And so this is where there's a lot of like, kind of gray area. But they're allowed to interrogate. That's not a Fourth Amendment violation. But when it comes to actually detaining someone, they do need probable cause of reasonable suspicion for that, which they will probably. You know, this is very race based, a lot of racial profiling, of course. So there's of course two ways it can go if you're a citizen, and I do recommend you have some sort of proof of that with you, whether a passport or birth certificate. Birth certificate, but that doesn't always have your photo, so maybe a real id. But then it should go very quickly. At the same time, you can also choose to not answer. And if there, if your resident status is a little iffy, you can just keep saying, am I free to leave? Like, am I free to leave? You know, like, I, I want to leave, Am I free to leave? And just like keep calmly saying that, am I free to leave? Am I free to leave? Am I free to leave? Which is going to be very hard because these guys, women, but these folks are trained to poke you, to shake you, to terrorize you, to brutalize you, to cause you to admit things you don't want to say. You know, they're going to say, we're going to take you right now, blah, blah, blah. And we're, you know, if you keep saying that you're going to be deported, like, they will kind of try anything they can to make you say what they want you to say. And so you just say like, I, I want to leave. I'm free to leave. I don't want to say anything else other than I want to leave. Don't try to like grab your phone to like start recording them because the moment you like reach for something, they might think it's a gun. And you just like, if you're worried about like picking up your kids or if you're worried about your, your boss, just like, let it sit. And just very, as much as you can very calmly say, I want to leave now. What we can do as citizens is we can record so Anything that's in public view, you're allowed to record as long as you, like, don't get in their face or you don't obstruct them or you don't get in the way. And. But generally, I do recommend, like, the footage that we have is. It's kind of unusual to our times. We actually get to film them, and we get to film what's happening, and then it's kind of live broadcasted in a way that, like, only the last two, three years, we've actually, like, been live broadcasting all of these terrors in our world. And they're also just happening on a mass scale. So a couple more things. They are not allowed to enter a house without a warrant. And so you can just choose not to open the door. But definitely don't run. So don't run outside, because sometimes there will be someone waiting outside. And just remember that any sort of aggression can be framed as obstruction. And that's going to be their main defense with Renee and Alex is like, that this is like, in the realm of criminal comic, which. Which isn't true, of course, but that's. That's the argument they're going with, is that the moment that you obstruct, the moment that you yell, the moment you get in their way, you're obstructing justice. And the moment that you're in that kind of realm, in that dimension, they just tend to get, you know, they're. They can get away with more. Their argument becomes stronger. Now, of course, these are just kind of some of the basic things that you should know. Try not to sound nervous. I know this is hard, but nervousness can kind of escalate the scrutiny. What else?

A (50:34)

And I have a question about again, because I'm going to Minneapolis, and they've said, ICE has said that real ID is not enough to prove citizenship. But for me, like, I don't want to walk around with my passport because my concern is because they've targeted people. What if they take your passport away and then you no longer have that form of identification? And also, I know that they're not allowed to go into houses or take people and do certain things, but they have been. So when they just violate these things. So my first question is, do you think carrying a photocopy of something would be at least a step? Because, again, I'm concerned about them taking my passport. And then the second question being, they're breaking all these laws. What do we do?

B (51:18)

Yeah, so you can absolutely take a photocopy, and then it's going to depend on the individual agent whether they will accept that, basically. I mean, you can, and you probably. I mean, you should. It's not comfortable to walk around with your passport. You know, you're going to want to not risk that. And. Yeah, they are absolutely violating the laws. And this is what the Liam ruling was all about, is that they. It's. It's exceeding what is legally allowed. And just the fact that they are murdering people, you know, like, that is. That's. That's murder. Like the shooting people in the back is murder. And they. What's going to happen is that there will be. I mean, not with this, with the Department of Justice, but with state law, there will be some prosecution and hopefully with the next presidency. And that's kind of what all of his lawyers are hoping for.

A (52:11)

Yeah.

B (52:11)

And praying for is that that will shift and that there will be these prosecutions with the next presidency as well as with the state jurisdictions, because the states also have laws. And they're probably. What ICE is going to do is they're going to argue that there is federal supremacy, but that is also not absolute because they're acting outside of the scope of their employment, and it's kind of beyond the bounds of what is reasonably allowed. Like, there is even in their own policy, a reasonable person test. Like, what would a reasonable person do here? And a reasonable person would not, like, shoot someone in the back, you know, 10 times, like.

A (52:47)

Or however many shots it was.

B (52:49)

Yeah. So we're gonna see some repercussions and some accountability, but the question is, like, it might just be delayed, like, it might just come later. And I think that's what they know. Like, they. They know that terror is fast, fear is fast. The legal process and all of the administration moves slowly. And so it's going to take time for the law to kind of catch up on what's happening also, because so much is happening at once. And what we're seeing, like, another part that we're seeing is that pretty much any immigrant is now treated as a criminal. And something I want to share is kind of this. This longer arc of what I've seen in this work is that when I started working in immigration law, the. The policy and the enforcement was kind of reactive, and now it is proactive. And I'll explain what. I mean, the. What we got in terms of cases is, like, someone who was detained for something else. So let's say DUI or some sort of fraud, like, they were caught for something else. And then they ran the paperwork and they realized there was no statistic, and that's kind of how the deportation process was triggered. And there was still a bunch of back and forth where we would try to keep those folks in the country. But now what we're seeing is, like, the actual proactive searching of undocumented folks, like, treating all of them as criminals. And mind you, overstaying a visa is not a crime. It is a civil offense. And so what we're now seeing and this scale of it and the aggression and just, like, how they're ripping families apart, that the cruelty is the strategy, like, the cruelty is the message. And when I worked on immigration cases, we just didn't see that kind of cruelty and terror that we see now. It was, again, like, more reactive. It was like, oh, we. We caught this guy who drove, you know, under the influence, got into a car crash, and we. He doesn't have status, so now we have to initiate deportation procedure. Like, that was kind of the more traditional deportation case. And of course, as a result of that, families did get separated. But what we saw, for example, with the first Trump administration, with Tom Homan at the border, the family separation policy, like that was an intentional policy to separate children, to put them on cold floors as a message, don't come here. Like, that is actually in their documentation. And there's still so many kids that haven't been reunited. And so that's what shifted. It was like, the cruelty. The separation is the policy. It is the strategy, like, as a message to do not come here, do and leave. And the other side of that is that, I mean, to be frank, the United States relies on the labor of undocumented people. They're the ones picking the food. They're the ones cleaning the houses. And let's be clear, they're the ones taking care of a lot of kids while their moms are standing on stages accepting awards for being a feminist. I mean, that's like, the world I was in a lot is there is exploitation of these people all around. On a case that I worked on, it was an elderly care facility. There were women who were human trafficked who were put to work and exploited for up to 20 years, and they weren't paid, and they had to sleep on the floor. And this was held over their head. Like, if you complain, I'm gonna report you, and then you're gonna get deported. And so a scared immigrant is an exploitable immigrant. And so when we create this culture of tension and fear and terror, it is just a lot easier to use people. And these are the People that are holding up the whole economy. And so that, to me, became very clear when I noticed the shift and I started working in the centers and I went to the detention centers, and I saw the children alone. And it was unbearable. It was unbearable for me as a lawyer, as a mother, to witness what was happening and for the country to kind of have this collective shoulder shrug. And I bring this up because. And I'm sure you see this a lot. I think one of the common defenses is like, Obama did this too. Biden did this too. And like, that was. There has always been family separation, but it was a little bit just. Yeah. Again, reactive and not proactive.

A (57:29)

Yeah.

B (57:30)

And even. I just want to also clarify that the immigration system in the US in and of itself, it's a cruel system compared to the rest of the. The world. In the eu, for example, in Europe, you have this concept called a feudal, which means that they don't separate families. Like, they think that is a crime against humanity. So that doesn't even happen. You would have a child with citizenship rights, and then a parent, a mother, they would have kind of vicarious residency through their child. And so even in and of itself, the US Immigration system, the fact that they're separating families like it is, it's cruel and it's barbaric in and of itself. But what happened under Trump both times, it's just how that was weaponized and how that was kind of held up as, like, this is how we treat you if you. If you dare to. To, you know, to disobey.

A (58:28)

Yeah.

B (58:29)

And. And what happened in my case, for example, is that when we saw the shift, I did actually go after my clients, and they had to go into hiding, and I had to go to the immigration judge and kind of plead for them to stay. And I was pregnant at the time, was very stressful. And what's also interesting with a lot of these judges is that they don't really respond to humanitarian pleasure. And the only thing that worked is that, like, we had to. He was deporting the evidence of kind of this labor case where we had to show that this employer was violating the law. So it became more about, like, it's not fair to other employers who are following the law. It was kind of this, like, we had to be creative, and that worked. But it was a very distressing experience for everyone. We were able to get them residences, and we were residence cards, and we were able to get them paid. So I always just so grateful that I took on ICE and won while pregnant. Yeah. Which Is like unbelievable. But just the cruelty is the point with, with this administration and how much they're investing in it. You know, with the big beautiful bill, like billions and billions and billions. And also the messaging to the ICE agents, almost like they are above the law. There are a ton of laws in their policy, a ton of in their own handbook that says that they're not, you know, that there are specific bounds as to what there are and are not allowed to do. And also they have anti retaliation protections. So if they follow an order they believe to be unlawful, they are protected. And I think what we're going to see over the course of the next decades is a ton of prosecutions, a ton of court cases where they're going to say, well, I was just following orders and we have all of this precedent saying that is actually not a defense.

A (60:28)

Yeah.

B (60:29)

And so I just keep hanging my hat on that because it's going to happen.

A (60:33)

Yeah. And so as we kind of like move towards wrapping up, like, what can the average person do? And I want to be a little more specific with that. What can, like the average, especially white people do? Right. Because we have a modicum of privilege and protection. Right. I, you know, the Supreme Court ruled that they can stop brown people, they can stop someone who speaks Spanish. I do neither. And so what can the average person do? You know, as we wait for this, you know, for those trials to come, what can we do to protect people? What can we do to support immigration lawyers? What can we do to resist what ICE is doing?

B (61:13)

So we have way more immigrants than we have immigration lawyers. I think the ratio, I mean, it's really, really imbalanced. And being an immigration lawyer is a very, very hard job. And it's also very like, it's not paid a lot. It's like not one of those glamorous fields of the law because you're working with people who usually don't have money. And I remember we were working on cases where we would often do it for free or we would say, like, oh, just pay us what you can, which was a couple hundred dollars sometimes. Or they would pay us in food, which, yeah, very good food, by the way.

A (61:55)

Better than the snacks at the Democratic voting table.

B (62:03)

And I just really want folks to understand that this work needs to be more incentivized. And so donating to the National Immigrant justice center, the National Immigrant Law Center. And also look at your local immigration lawyer agencies, because there's going to be local ones and they're going to have fundraisers, they're going to have events. And it's actually, I'd really encourage everyone to really look at what does their local community provide in terms of the immigration defense and the agencies, because every place is going to have one and they're just always direly underfunded and under supported and there's going to be so many more cases than there are lawyers. And the reason Liam is free is because they filed a petition of habeas corpus, you know, and that needs to be happening en masse. We need to be able to actually use the legal system and push back hard because they're using it against us with such aggression and such force and we don't have the resources to push back with that kind of energy. And so the more we can file these claims, file these petitions, make sure people have status, make sure people move, you know, because there's a lot of people now, for example, that are being deprioritized and they're kind of hanging in this limbo legally, which means that they're very legally vulnerable because if they don't actually have full status or they're full citizens, they can still be deported. And so there's a lot of people that we have to like move into citizen status as fast as we can. And then people that are detained, like just. There needs to be this influx of resources and money to, to these lawyers that are doing this very, very unglamorous and challenging work. I mean, I just. When I was doing the family separation cases, I couldn't sleep and I had my just, just this, the. This strange double experience of like having my own kids who were in their warm beds, who were having all of these toys, who just had these very, very soft, privileged, lovely, adorable lives and then going and seeing the toddlers on the floor screaming for their moms in the same city, you know, and like. And I can't bring them home. And it just, it hurt my body and I was lactating and like I was in so much pain and. And there's just so much that we don't see because cameras are not allowed.

A (64:41)

Yeah.

B (64:42)

And so there's a lot of things that we're not seeing, but lawyers are often able to go. And so these lawyers are just on the front lines of justice work. And it's really traumatizing work for them and just incentivizing them to stay in the field I think is really important.

A (64:57)

Yeah. Making sure they can pay the bills.

B (65:00)

Yeah, yeah. Because it's, it's. This is what it's going to take is for us to File like thousands and thousands and thousands of petitions so that the IC agents also know, like, there is a pushback, like something is going to push back at me. They're not. They don't feel like they're above the law because right now they have this God complex where they feel like they can do everything. And I'm sure you've seen the videos of the way these guys are trained.

A (65:29)

Yeah, but just, sorry, propaganda.

B (65:33)

It's like the way that they're conditioned and brainwashed into thinking they can do whatever they want.

A (65:39)

Yeah. And I was, I was trained.

B (65:40)

They need to know there's a limit. They need to know that there's going to be prosecutions. They need to know that there's going to be civil lawsuits, they're going to get sued, they're going to lose all their money. And so we have to like, turn this around on them.

A (65:52)

I agree. I agree. And how can my followers and people listening to this follow and support you? Because I know that you're still volunteering, you're giving great information online. Where can people find you?

B (66:05)

That's. I really like that. Thank you. I'm just a humble servant of justice, but you can find me on Instagram, the Mom Attorney. I have a book coming out. I would love to. It's for moms who would love to learn the art of advocacy. It's really interesting because I learned how to be an effective advocate. I was not that kid where they said, oh, you'd be a great lawyer one day, who's like, just like super feisty. Like, I was studious. I was like Matilda. I was just like in my own world. And I just became this like award winning trial lawyer because I care so much and because I learned how to be a strategic advocate. And so I think the good news here is that you can learn that you can learn your rights. You can learn how to assert them in a way that's like, very collaborative. And that's that in a way that's very constructive. And. And it's such a skill I wish everyone has. And so I share information for about immigration law, about workplace law. I recently, on Friday did a post on your striking rights. Because I know a lot of people aren't striking because they were worried about losing their jobs. So I'm always just kind of finding those areas of like, oh, I don't think people know this. And I know that because I am in this industry where there is so much like old school institutional knowledge that has been historically weaponized against those who are exploited against Those who are excluded. And what if we turn that around? Like, what if I give you the tools and the power and the resources to protect yourself? Because the law can be used against us, but if we. We can also use it to protect us. And what I see with this ruling is that this is going to be the shift that we're going to start seeing. Like, we're going to be pushing back, and it's going to start with all of us knowing our rights and also how to be good ally and advising others. Like, what I would really love, and I'm sorry your duolingo career didn't work out, because, like, I would really love everyone to translate resources with in Spanish and making sure that folks know that, like, there's, for example, an eyes directive where they're not supposed to detain pregnant and postpartum moms. And I'm going to be sharing about that. And we've, you know, like, we're also be sharing that in Spanish. And so I think just looking out for each other and looking out for the people that pick our food and that take care of the kids and that clean our houses and really ask. Going to them and saying, how can I support you? Like, you must be so scared. Is there something we can do? Like, how can I be in your life in a way that you feel like you're not, because you don't feel unwelcome or penalized or like you don't belong here because this is actually your land? And I think just saying that and just that acknowledgment of, like, we're. We are with you, I think that will do a lot for their nervous system.

A (69:08)

Yeah. And when does the book come out?

B (69:10)

March 3rd.

A (69:11)

March. Oh, it's like, next month.

B (69:12)

Yeah.

A (69:13)

Okay.

B (69:13)

I know it's for a mom you love or buy it for yourself, but it also has my story. It also has, like, the story of many of my clients and just like, being a woman and a mom in this industry and like, the things I've seen. And so I just really. Yeah, I just really think there is a way for all of us to. To be of support and then also just a reminder to take it easy on yourself. You know, like, we're. We're a very informed generation. Like, we. We know a lot and. And we. We do a lot for each other. And I have this benefit of, like, seeing the Europeans and just how they don't have to actively fight for their rights.

A (69:58)

Yeah.

B (69:58)

And just like, how they can have this very different life. And I just really Want everyone to understand. Like being an American woman or person in this season of America is inherently traumatizing. Like it is, it takes a toll. And yes, we have more privilege and we have to use our privilege. And we are also really going through it too.

A (70:21)

Yeah.

B (70:21)

Like even just witnessing it, when you're a person who's empathetic, compassionate, big hearted, like you and me and all of our listeners, like, it's, it's. You're the medicine, you're, you're what we need. And like it's okay if you're like struggling with working with parenting, with like generally doing life. Like, it means that you are fully awake. It means that you are having your eyes wide open. You didn't get brainwashed, you didn't get condition, you didn't get propagandized or you got out right here.

A (70:52)

Yeah.

B (70:52)

Or you got out. But it's, it's, it's a hard thing to be fully awake in this season of every day there's like a new act of terror. Every day there's a new horrifying thing that comes out that we have to digest. And our poor nervous systems are just like digesting all of that every day. And just like I admire you, I admire everyone who's like on the front lines, which I consider you on the front lines of this work, who is like willing to really put your body in between these forces and then everyone else that needs our protection. Like, it's, it's beautiful justice work.

A (71:31)

Yeah. And it's, it's great. But it is exhausting.

B (71:34)

It is, it's exhausting. Yeah. Just acknowledging that. And I think it's important to hold that, like hold the both ends of like, we have so much privilege. We are so resources, resource. We can do a lot more, especially for women of color, for Hispanic women and anyone who's undocumented, indigenous women especially. And also we are still going through something that too, my European friends, sounds completely unfathomable. You know, like living with all these horrors and terrors and like even just school shootings and lack of health care and like all the basic human rights that we still are fighting for. And I also trust. And again, this is because I see the other side of fascism. I see the post collapse piece as a European person. Like, that is all coming and unfortunately we have to go through the collapse first. And it's really fucking heartbreaking because we are just holding on for dear life. And I just say hold on to each other. Link up, don't let go. We got this. We're Going to be moving through it. But there is another side to it.

A (72:44)

Yeah. Oh, that's such a. Such a message of hope that I don't think you knew that I needed. I was. Even this morning, I, like, I mean, I've been working so much to the point where my days have just started to blur. Like, I don't really remember what I'm doing in my days. And I had a conversation with my assistant this morning of like, dude, I don't know how much longer I can do this. And it's been this lesson for me of learning, okay, how do I. How do I fight? And how do I live, too? Because I have to figure out a way to do both. And that was just. That just. That was just such a message of hope is that there is something on the other side of this. Like, it doesn't end here.

B (73:26)

No. And you've done enough for, like, the next 10 lifetimes, even if you stop right now. Like, you've done. You've given so much of your time and your wisdom and your generosity, and we see that and we love you, and it's just so apparent, like, how much you care. And. Yeah, it's important to, like, also just be able to live our lives. And that is the challenge for our generation right now. Like, how the fuck do we do that?

A (73:53)

It's like, what do you mean? Like, I have some of these events, you know, they're coming up and. And, you know, part of me was like, I'm not gonna go, but I was sponsored to go. And, like, I can't. You know, I already made these agreements. And I'm like. But then I was like, you know, you can give yourself a night. Like, you can give yourself one night to. Cause I'm someone who does tend to fixate, and I tend to spiral, and I get, you know, locked in. Like, I'm the crazy person in the room with all the pictures and the red string. Like, I'm trying to figure out how to not be that way, trying to, like, live somehow in it.

B (74:30)

How can you not spiral right now? But we have to keep it sustainable because we're. This is such a long fight.

A (74:37)

Yeah, it is a long fight, and it always is. Because we see. My hope has always been that we see these cycles in history, they always come up. And then, like you said, there's that collapse and then there's the rebuild, and it's just America's turn. It's America's turn to go through it. And I think it was what had to happen for us. To realize that our system isn't working.

B (74:59)

It all has to come out because the. Of the way the country was built, the way that the land was stolen, the way all the corruption, like, everything is coming out. And that's what we're seeing with the Epstein fight. Like, it. All of the. The dirtiness is coming to light, and it's painful and it's hard, and. And it needs to happen. And there is also something interesting about truth, like, and just honesty about, like, okay, well, when you're in truth, at least you can go somewhere. Like, we can move. Because the hardest thing, I think, was this pretense of America, the liberator America, the place of freedom America, place of justice and rights. And, like, that was such a farce, and it's not true. And so. And that's. You know, black women and indigenous women have had this total different, very different experience. And they, you know, it's time for, like, the truth of what this country is to. To be revealed and for us to have the reckoning. And then at the same time, like, just. What I. What I really want to instill here is that. And this is a challenge for me. I'm really trying to live. I'm really trying to embody the. The next season. And what I mean by that is, like, I'm trying to do this in a way where I don't, first of all, martyr myself, because that is also part of the old world that has to die, where I'm, like, completely sacrifice myself and I just, like, annihilate myself, because then I exploit myself beyond what I can give, which is part of the tools of patriarchy. And also, I try to. And I have to stay relational, which means I don't push people away, which I think has been very hard to do when I disagree. But the world I want to see is where everyone belongs, and we don't push things in the shadows anymore. And so it's like, how can I embody that? How can I embody what I want to see and, like, start doing it now? And it's really hard because we're not there yet. Yeah. And so there's this constant tension in my own body of, like, there is a collapsing happening of my own inner structure of the way that we've all learned how to be and how to work and, like, push ourselves and, like, go hard and, like, rescue and save everyone. And then there's also the other side of, like, how can I live it now? How can I live this new way. Way now where I'm tender to myself. And I'm. I have love for myself and everyone around me. Even amidst the collapse. Maybe especially during the collapse.

A (77:43)

Yeah.

B (77:43)

And it's just such a. It's such a mind fuck.

A (77:46)

I know.

B (77:47)

It's like short circuiting all the time.

A (77:50)

I also want to say though that like you're, you're gentle mom. Ing me so hard. I'm like on the other side of the bike trying not to get emotional something. You're right. It's such a, it is such a way like the. I've recognized in myself, in my own deconstruction. I really thought that purity culture and like the internalized misogyny was going to be the hardest thing to leave behind. It's really been this work till you're dead thing has been the hardest for me to leave. It's even now trying to. I'm working from the second I get up to the second I go to sleep. And I know intellectually that that's not sustainable. But I keep doing it. Cause I feel like I have to. Cause I feel like if I'm not doing that then I'm not doing enough. And if I'm not doing enough then I'm not worth it. That's been the hardest thing for me as a person to try to unpack. And I love how you so beautifully said that of like I can't martyr myself because if I do that then I'm, I'm useless for the, the fight that has to happen.

B (78:48)

Yeah. And I'm literally, and I will say I'll go a step further. There is, there is a capitalist streak in activism too where it's like the, the, the, the like we're not going to take breaks, we're not going to take vacation. We're you know, like the cause above else mission work above else which is an American work mentality that were. And this is because I see another perspective because I've moved between lands that is, it's a. Yeah. It is unkind to the body.

A (79:22)

Yeah.

B (79:23)

And I'm just really curious like what is joyful pleasure filled restful activism feel like.

A (79:34)

Yeah.

B (79:35)

Because all I've known as you is like I've been in the courtroom, I've been on the front lines, I've been like in the detention centers with the children on the floor. Like heartbreak, pain, grief. And it's like how can we do this and still laugh and still have fun and still make jokes and still.

A (79:53)

Apparently someone spirit just needs to send you a jacked owl duolingo pillow because.

B (79:59)

Oh, I cannot Wait. I was laughing for my Jax owl duolingo.

A (80:04)

I was like, why does he look like this?

B (80:07)

I love it so much. I've never seen a jagged owl.

A (80:12)

Oh, me either. Until yesterday, I was like, what? And it's. It is a full size body pillow, front and back. It was the most chaotic thing that I was just. And I think it was, it was just so much funnier because it caught me so off guard because I was like, what is this? And why. Why is it in my house?

B (80:32)

Maybe you can bring that to your ice encounters in Minnesota.

A (80:35)

Right, Exactly. I'm just gonna carry around. We're just gonna pretend it's the Portland frog. We're just gonna do it that way because it looks almost like the Portland frog. But. But it is. That's such a good. It's such a good word because it is a long fight. And it is. It's so hopeless. And I think of, you know, people my age, a little older, a little younger, you know, the American millennial generation where there hasn't been a span of time since Columbine that we haven't been through some kind of, you know, historical moment in a bad way. Every three to five years, you know, it's been back to, back to back to back. And, you know, all of our nervous systems are just totally fried. Plus, millennials are, you know, you're working two jobs to just try to buy a house and you're doing all these other things. It's a good reminder. And I literally, I fly to Minneapolis in six hours. So this is, this is good talk for me because I was stressing this morning and running around. I'm like, okay, I'm going to take a breath and like, how can I make this work better? Because I was spazzing this morning. It was not in a good place.

B (81:42)

There's some really beautiful stories coming out of Minnesota. They're just, like, having impromptu dance parties that they're like, all gathering and just the community building they're doing. And I think they're really modeling this right now of, like, how are we untangling and breaking down and collapsing the old while we are embodying the new and the new, which is, in a way, which is interesting because where we're going is both new, but it's also ancient. Like, it's how we've always lived.

A (82:12)

We're touching back into something that we lost.

B (82:15)

Yeah. That our bodies remember and long for. And that's what happened in Europe. Because after the collapse in Europe, there was this reckoning of like, okay, that didn't work. Clearly. We keep killing each other. And like, now how do we reimagine and how do we actually build something that supports everyone? And then there's been like the longest season of peace where everyone has health care and child care and pensions and like a boring ass life. Like, can you imagine?

A (82:46)

Oh, I would love boring.

B (82:47)

Yeah. Like, the news in Belgium is like, Frank had a new bike, he bought a new bike. Like, it's just nothing happens. But that's after like centuries of killing each other and hunting each other and like invasions and like this, this is what happens at the other side of the collapse. It's like, oh, okay, now that we're through this, we can never go back. And now we're going to build a system where we are interdependent and communal as a survival strategy, because that's actually the most sustainable way to create peace. And so that's coming. The US is just a new country. And so, yeah, the reckoning needs to happen. And it's here and it's honest and it's real and it's raw and it's painful and it's also so beautiful how we're finding each other in this way.

A (83:43)

It really is. And seeing people stand up the way they have in Minnesota and other places. And I think that Americans are discovering what community can look like because we've been so separated and we've been so isolated and hyper independent. And we're now seeing that community really is like the anchor. And when I left the far right, I left behind this idea of American exceptionalism and this kind of I'm a patriot and I lost those feelings. And the closest I've come to having those feelings again since then is seeing what people are doing in Minnesota and it filling me with so much pride to like, that those people doing that work, that great work are like my fellow Americans. Like, that's the closest that I've gotten to that, that kind of patriotic feeling, which has been really incredible and really healing.

B (84:40)

And it's like the pride of watching these people and like, these are my kin and I'm so proud to belong to this land. And I think that the real venom is the separation and the divisiveness, the separation of like, you don't belong here. And I think. And we're going to get a little kind of more philosophical here for a minute, but I think what is at the root of a lot of this is it's the folks that are right now being hunted are native to the land and they are Actually the most rooted. And I think these ICE officers and these white supremacists in general are, they can't tolerate it. Like they're actually so envious because they're spiritually homeless. Like they just, they don't know how to root down. They don't have the rootedness and the groundedness. And so community creates groundedness and it creates rootedness and it creates the sense of. Because when you are in community you, you have to understand that we are all different and that the most sustainable format is a diverse format. Just like in the gut, like biodiversity is actually a super healthy thing.

A (85:53)

Yeah.

B (85:53)

Like those are always the best structures. And. And so they are going to have to reckon with the fact of their own rupture from their own lineage.

A (86:02)

Yeah.

B (86:02)

And also what was inflicted in their name. And until that happens, they're going to keep hunting those who are actually rooted because they can't tolerate. They can tolerate it. They're so envious. I think that that's why the fear, the envy scares them because it confuses them.

A (86:20)

Yeah. And I think that's also why you see so many things, especially when they can't like articulate an argument. They attack blue hair and nose rings and tattoos or whatever they pick. And it's not because those things are a problem. It's because someone who is, could knows who they are and is comfortable in self expression and is comfortable. If people don't like that self expression and does it anyway makes them so viciously uncomfortable because all they know is like separation, conformity, check the boxes, do what you're told. And they don't have that sense of self and that sense of self expression. And so when they see someone who does it triggers them a lot. And I think that's why you'll meet people who get very vitriolic around people who are, and it could be any race, but people who are very self expressive or very artistic and they get really irrationally angry about these people or they really irrationally demonize them. These people are not doing anything wrong. Blue hair doesn't hurt anybody. It doesn't, but it's this idea of they can't stand someone refusing to conform. They can't stand someone's level of self acceptance which in and of itself takes a level of groundedness and takes a level of understanding who you are and doing what you want to do because you want to do it. And I think it's all tied together to this being. I love the phrase spiritually homeless, but spiritually homeless, not being rooted, not feeling sure of yourself and not knowing who you are. Because people who are secure do not lash out at other people, Talk down to other people, demonize other people. They don't need to. That's. That's a hallmark of insecurity to do those things.

B (88:06)

It feels terrible in the body.

A (88:08)

It does. It feels gross.

B (88:10)

It's. It's not the way you want to go through life. And, and it's like they are so, like they outsource their power so easily. And so when they find someone who's fully sovereign and kind of ungovernable, like, yeah, it creates contrast and they feel threatened by that contrast. And so because they're so corrupted in their pain and their hatred, they don't know like a way out.

A (88:35)

Yeah.

B (88:35)

And so they see, see a person who's just so free and liber and liberated. And really I think what it is is jealousy. Like they're just agree. I think it's the same reason we have the story that God created human life is because man could not tolerate that woman creates life in our bodies. Like they're just so unbelievably envious of our, of this power that they can never feel. And you know the stories about Jesus making water out of wine while like women are making milk out of blood. Like we are like actively but very kind of mundanely almost doing all these miracles all day long. And so I think it's the lack of tolerance of discomfort, of like, oh, okay, like this person is so powerful. And it creates a contrast because I don't feel that powerful and I don't know how to get there.

A (89:28)

And it makes me feel insecure in my power. So in order to deal with that insecure feeling, I have to dominate this other person becomes this external thing. And my last question for you today is, besides your book which is coming out, can't wait. If you could give anybody one book to read that either changed your life or you think every person should read, what would that book be?

B (89:53)

I love the book Women who Run with the Wolves.

A (89:56)

Oh, I've been hearing so much about this. Yeah, I haven't read it yet. I haven't read it yet.

B (90:01)

Reading Sweetgrass also is an amazing book. Yeah, I really love, I love those books. There's one called Cassandra Speaks that I really love. And it's just about like retelling the story with, from the, from the female perspective.

A (90:22)

Incredible.

B (90:24)

Yeah, but those are the. I would say women who run with the wolves. I find, like, that's my Bible. That's what I return to again. And again, I.

A (90:31)

Okay, I have to read it because literally two interviews ago, I was talking to a girlfriend of mine who's an artist who was on the show, and she. That was the first book she said was okay. I was like, really? I have to get this book now and read it.

B (90:43)

Yeah, it's. It's pretty. It's pretty amazing. And then, yeah, Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Kimmler, who is a Native American woman. And I think what she does so beautifully is like, she. She weaves. She weaves Western and native.

A (91:00)

Wow.

B (91:01)

Which is so healing.

A (91:02)

I love that.

B (91:04)

Yeah, it made me feel very loved and very integrated.

A (91:08)

I love that.

B (91:09)

I love that as someone on the Americas, but from European descent. And. Yeah, it's. It's a really, really beautiful book. So those are kind of the. The books that I like to read.

A (91:20)

All right, guys, We. We've now had two recommendations for women who run with wolves. We. I have to read it now. I have to read it. Daphne, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much for your work, and thank you so much for mothering me through the back half.

B (91:35)

Anytime you need.

A (91:36)

I'm just gonna start calling and being like, can I just get a pep talk? I think. I think I'm.

B (91:41)

Voice note.

A (91:42)

I am especially sensitive to that kind of energy. I never knew my mom. My mom left when I was very young, so that whenever someone mothers me, I'm like. It's like when someone, like, an older person says something like, really nice to you, and you're like, it's that feeling. It's that feeling with all moms. But with all moms, whenever someone mothers.

B (91:59)

Me, anytime someone says, oh, honey, I got this. I'm like, well, anytime. I'm sorry about your mom, but all the moms love you.

A (92:09)

So it's.

B (92:10)

Well, I have a really incredible.

A (92:12)

I have an incredible community. And I just want to say so much. Thank you for. For everything that you're doing and everything you're teaching. And I do recommend everyone listening to this episode go follow her on Instagram. The Mom Attorney. It is so powerful, and it's these really digestible snippets of. These are your rights. Here's what's happening. Here's what you can do. Here's how to handle it. And it's really practical because there is so much of the law that can protect us if we know it. So I just wanted to thank you so much for that and thank you for that work.

B (92:44)

That's what I. And I'll end on this because Like, I agree, for example, like, with the ICE rhetoric, and I'm taking just a different approach.

A (92:52)

Yeah.

B (92:53)

Because I. I know from my. All of my years being in the courtroom that just anger isn't a strategy with. In the current system.

A (93:03)

Yeah.

B (93:04)

And. And so I'm just gonna teach you your rights. I'm gonna teach you strategy. I'm even gonna tell. Even gonna educate ICE agents and say you have a right to. To disobey here. To disobey unlawful orders and be protected from retaliation. Yeah. And. And so that's. That's my love language right now. And I try to do it in a way that's not shaming of, like, you need to do this. And, like, because it's. It's tough out there. I know that.

A (93:30)

Yeah.

B (93:30)

But at least when we're informed, we can make informed decisions.

A (93:33)

Yeah. Amen to that. Well, thank you, everyone. I hope that this episode was as healing for you as it was for me. We're all going to go out and buy women that run with wolves. Daphne Delvaux, thank you so much.

B (93:43)

And Monte Labor.

A (93:45)

Exactly. Thank you so much for everything you do. And thank you for coming on the show today.

B (93:51)

You're welcome. Monty. Good luck in Minnesota. They're lucky to have you there.

A (93:55)

Thank you. And listen, everybody, I will be keeping everyone updated on Minnesota, and I will for sure see you next week on Flipping Tables.