← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
Best of 2025: How to Have Meaningful Conversations with Your Spouse
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- [00:00]
Jim Daly
Jasmine knows the devastation of loss all too well. Her premature son died after four months in the hospital, and then she experienced a miscarriage.
- [00:10]
Heather Holloman
It was hard to worship. It was hard to pray. But by listening to this podcast, focus on your family, it helped me think that I am not the only one who's going through this.
- [00:23]
Jim Daly
Jasmine says we were a voice of calm and truth in her chaos. Today, she wants to equip other hurting families to before it's too late.
- [00:32]
Heather Holloman
By listening to this podcast or focus on family, it will help you tremendously with your faith and how to grow and move forward.
- [00:41]
Jim Daly
I'm Jim Daly. We need your help to deliver hope and joy to more families like Jasmine. But time is running out to see your gift doubled through our matching opportunity. Give generously today@focusonthefamily.com family or call 800 the letter A and the word family.
- [01:04]
Heather Holloman
So the first thing that changed in my marriage was believing the best about Ashley, meaning the things that he's doing, he's doing for a reason. I don't need to control him or nag him. So I started complimenting him. I started. Anytime he did anything, I would make sure I was admiring and respecting him. And was that like the first year of our. Pretty much after the first year that changed everything.
- [01:28]
John Fuller
Dr. Heather Holloman and her husband Ashley are featured today on this best of 2025 episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for being along with us. I'm John Fuller.
- [01:40]
Jim Daly
John, One of our most popular programs from last year was with Heather, and it was fantastic, and people responded. And we are quite confident that today's broadcast will have that same kind of response because she just touches a great nerve when. When it comes to how to communicate. And if you're in marriage, you get it. Sometimes you're doing it well, sometimes you're not doing it well. I remember one time I'm reading the newspaper, watching a Broncos football game, and Jean's talking to me, and I think I've developed a bit of that skill because of this job. And she looked at me and said, what did I just say? And I gave it back to her verbatim. And she said, I appreciate that, but I need your face. And I thought, uh, oh, I'm in trouble. And, yeah, that's part of it. How do we communicate in a deeper way in our marriages to grow that intimacy, not just physically, but most importantly, emotionally and spiritually?
- [02:35]
John Fuller
Yeah, there's a yearning for so many of us, and we don't know the path this is going to be a great show. Heather's husband, Ashley is joining her for this conversation. As I said, he's the executive director of Seated and Sent, a ministry he and Heather founded. And Heather has studied and spoken about conversation and relationships. She's an associate teaching professor of advanced writing at Penn State and she's a speaker and author. And her book is really the foundation for today's conversation. It's what we talked about last time, in fact. So it's called the Six Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. Get a copy of this book and learn more about our guests. We've got the links in the show notes.
- [03:18]
Jim Daly
Heather and Ashley, welcome back to Focus on the Family for you, Heather, first time for Ashley. Welcome.
- [03:23]
Ashley Holloman
Thank you so much. So glad to be here.
- [03:25]
Jim Daly
Good to have you both. Hey, Heather, let me start with you. We did have some discussions previously and you are in that university setting you're teaching, you know, late teen, early 20s somethings. And there seems to be a lot of loneliness expressed from that group. When researchers do the studies, they're saying it's one of the loneliest groups that they've seen at that age for as long as they've done some of the research. So I guess a basic question before we even apply this to marriage and what's happening there? What's going on in the culture where people that are so connected digitally today feel so alone?
- [04:03]
Heather Holloman
Well, one of the problems is we found just we wrote this book, really talked about writing the six conversations because of what we called the culture of incivility. Just people were really suspicious of each other. They approach each other not believing the best, just feeling like people were enemies coming out of, you know, even from 2016 on, also, people just have lost the of connecting. From COVID we were seeing a lot of research studies coming out about the lack of just people were isolated and they did not know how to reengage and connect. And also recently we've been looking at it's a culture of monologuing and not dialoguing. So think about TikTok and Instagram Reels and people on there, they're talking, they're monologuing to an imagined audience. And there's not a lot of just interpersonal connection. So I tell my students this is the number one professional skill you can develop and is the art of forming warm connections.
- [04:56]
Jim Daly
So this is a bit of the book, is a bit of the curriculum.
- [05:00]
Ashley Holloman
That you're going to be.
- [05:00]
Jim Daly
It is.
- [05:00]
Heather Holloman
It's a great curriculum.
- [05:02]
Jim Daly
Yeah, we're gonna cover some of that we won't be able to get to all of it. Let me ask you, Ashley. I mean, you've been married 25 years. And you know, the good thing about doing this with students is it does prepare them. Not all people are gonna get married. I get that we're not making an idol out of marriage, but many will get married. And in doing so, that really is great preparatory work for how to be in an intimate relationship with somebody. Let me ask it this way. The way God wired us, there's that scripture that references that he created us for relationship. And we tend to ignore that. I mean, it's like our being is meant to be in relationship, but we are working against that natural God given bent. It seems like.
- [05:46]
Ashley Holloman
Yeah, at the core and essence of all of this is what is at the essence of who God is. Even before the world was created, he existed in relationship with himself, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And he had wonderful conversations with Himself, I can only imagine. And then he created a world for us to live in and created us in his image and designed us in his image to relate similarly and to have great conversations. And so this is something I've really had to grow and learn in. But what gives me great hope is God has fashioned me in his image and. And so I too can have great conversations, meaningful connections. I've got to work at it, maybe more than others, but it's hardwired into who I am.
- [06:26]
Jim Daly
I think that's great though. And so often, I mean, we tease all the time here, focus on the family, how marriage, you know, you're not always the opposites are attracting, but often they are. It's like introvert and extrovert and those kinds of things. But it is kind of humorous that God puts something in us that we are attracted to the things we don't possess in order to. You know, the scripture talks about it completing us. That's right. And then we're. Then we have a challenge. Then it's either gonna be a good thing or it's gonna be irritating. You guys have been married 25 years. So what do you. When you look at your own marriage. Not to put you on the spot, but I kind of am. What are those attributes that you look at in your own marriage that make your marriage healthy?
- [07:10]
Heather Holloman
Well, for me, it's. We've really developed the conviction to continually be curious about one another.
- [07:17]
Jim Daly
That is awesome.
- [07:18]
Heather Holloman
And ask really. I mean, being a student of each other. And I. Because I was just thinking about the verse in Colossians about how in Christ are hidden all the riches of wisdom and knowledge. And I think when I'm with Ash, I want to seek out the wisdom of Christ that's in him because he's a believer. You know, like, I want to ask him good questions, like, what is God teaching you? What are you learning about Him? That's been a real foundation of our marriage, at least in the last 10 years. And then also this for me. And I don't know if this is the same for you, Ashley, but believing the best about him has changed everything about our marriage. And not just believing it in my heart, but saying positive things to him every day. It changes the communication climate of our home. And that's rooted in even the research we read from the Yale Relationship Lab about. It's called expressing liking. You have to tell your spouse how much you like him every day. So those are the two that have transformed me the most, which are two of the four mindsets of a loving connection.
- [08:17]
Ashley Holloman
Yeah. I think for me, the whole. Just the whole idea of oneness that God has called us to be one part of the way that that gets worked out for us is just oneness of purpose and our mission and embracing life as being sent ones and living. Living life as those God has sent out to others. But also I think as part of that is one of the goals we talk. Heather talks about in the book of Meaningful Conversation.
- [08:39]
Is sharing their goals or helping them grow, helping them reach their goals. And I love that about our marriage. It's like, wait a minute. If God's called us together, and if ephesians, is it 2, 10? You know, he's got good works prepared in advance for us to do well, then he's got good works prepared in advance for her to do and for me to do and for us to do together. And there have been times in our marriage where they kind of tend to bump up against each other. It's like, wait a minute. God's got this worked out. We'll figure this out together. We don't have to compete about what God has for us, for our lives, if we really follow this oneness idea.
- [09:16]
Jim Daly
Cause you said that so beautifully, both of you. And I'm thinking of the listeners that they're not there. They didn't do a PhD in communication, so they haven't had those milestone breakthroughs yet. So it was interesting in your answer, you're kind of referencing. You learn to.
- [09:32]
Heather Holloman
Yes.
- [09:33]
Jim Daly
So where were those milestones for you? Year five, year three, six months? When did it start where you're going? Okay, I Need to express that. I like you to ask.
- [09:44]
Heather Holloman
Well, this is embarrassing, but when we got married, I was a terrible wife. I was nagging, I was controlling. I kept a record of wrongs. If he didn't take out the trash, if he didn't do the dishes, if he didn't, I was terrible. And I don't know where this came from. I guess I had the expectation of marriage, that his entire job was to just make me happy and do whatever I say every day. It was terrible. Jim. And John, I am confessing to you now, I was.
- [10:11]
Jim Daly
I'm a little uneasy.
- [10:13]
Heather Holloman
Our marriage. We had a marriage process.
- [10:15]
Ashley Holloman
It wasn't that bad, obviously.
- [10:16]
Jim Daly
No, but it's good. These are normal things.
- [10:18]
Heather Holloman
Well, and we see marriages that function that way now, where there's a lot of complaining and criticism. And the Lord really taught me. He used wise counselors to talk about this idea of believing the best about your spouse. And that's rooted, obviously in scripture, but it comes from the social science research of just how people grow, how people change. No one wants to be in an environment where you're constantly being criticized or judged. So the first thing that changed in my marriage was believing the best about Ashley, meaning the things that he's doing, he's doing for a reason. I don't need to control him or nag him. So I started complimenting him. I started. Anytime he did anything, I would make sure I was admiring and respecting him. And was that like the first year of our. Pretty much after the first year, that changed everything. So that was the first milestone, and probably the second biggest milestone for our marriage happened when we became involved as graduate students in the ministry of cru, which was formerly Campus Crusade for Christ, because we learned how to share our faith, and we began what we call to this day, living a scent life together. So that changed everything about the purpose of our marriage.
- [11:28]
Jim Daly
What about that? The scent life, Ashley, what does that mean?
- [11:31]
Ashley Holloman
It means believing that evangelism, loving others. Well, being missional, serving others, however you want to put it, isn't just something that we do. It's who we are. As Jesus said in John 20:21, as the father has sent me, he's saying this to his disciples and by extension, to us. So I send you. And so core to our identity as believers is that we're sent ones. And so this is not something we just do for God, but it's something we do with him. So it's really a mindset shift of, can I believe that God's involving me in the great Work that he's doing in the world.
- [12:05]
Jim Daly
Yeah. Heather, let me ask you. You in the book pointed out a scri. I think it's Philippians 2, 3, 7.
- [12:12]
Heather Holloman
Life changing.
- [12:13]
Jim Daly
It was life changing for you. And I think. If I may. Let me read it.
- [12:16]
Heather Holloman
I love Philippians. This is such a great passage, because.
- [12:19]
Jim Daly
I think it's so critical, and it really does shore it all up. It says again, Philippians 2, 3, 7. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit. This saying, you gotta stop and think about it. Right. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. That's a problem in the culture. It continues, let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. Kaboom.
- [13:09]
Heather Holloman
I love it.
- [13:10]
Jim Daly
That is so good. How did that speak to your heart and change your attitude?
- [13:15]
Heather Holloman
Well, it. I believe that Philippians 2 also, if you pair it probably with Romans 12, those two passages of scripture, I feel like are at the foundation for Christian discipleship and what it means to be a mature believer.
- [13:27]
Jim Daly
And Romans 12 just helps.
- [13:28]
Heather Holloman
Yes, that's the one that's like, you know, bless those who curse you. You know, show hospitality, weep with those who weep. But it also says to value others above yourself. It's a great par. Parallel passage. But what I learned about myself from Philippians 2, what the holy Spirit was showing me is, Heather, you need to value others above yourself, take on their interest, be curious about them, show positive regard to people, express concern about their life, and then humble yourself. One way to say it is, in any situation, instead of taking the highest place, take the lowest place. And that means that you position yourself to be a servant, even in conversation, that you're not there to get all the attention. You're not there to have everyone focus on you or monologue. And I was someone who talked way too much as a child, and I just read that passage, and I thought, there's a whole different way to live. I can enter a room and be a servant. I can enter a room and value the person who's in front of me, really value them and honor them above myself. And we do that through conversation. And what happens is, when you live that way, you're gonna have warm connections with people, and then you're gonna Naturally transition to gospel conversations that don't feel awkward or like a pivot in the conversation or a sales pitch. Cause you already have a warm connection. Cause you're living out Philippians too.
- [14:46]
Jim Daly
What's so interesting about this is how contrary it is to the world.
- [14:50]
Heather Holloman
It is.
- [14:50]
Jim Daly
Especially right now. It is where it's screaming and, you know, shouting at each other and division. Just love people sincerely and people's hearts crack open. Let me. You've mentioned a couple times, but I really want the definition when you refer to positive regard. What does positive regard. How does that relate to scripture?
- [15:08]
Ashley Holloman
Yeah, I love it. Because it means that you really are believing the best about them. That you are choosing a mindset to choose. Like, I'm going to move towards this person and I'm going to find what's really good. You're not ignoring what might be there. You're just choosing as an attitude of your heart to say, God has built this person in his image to this person has great value. You've never met a nobody, that kind of thing. And can I really search out being curious what is really, really great about them? And can my heart be positively disposed towards them?
- [15:37]
Jim Daly
Heather, some of the practical things we need to apply. In the book, you talk about the four Ls of a caring bond. Let's cover those.
- [15:45]
Heather Holloman
Well, that was just communication 101. It's listening and what I mean. Well, I'll go through them. It's listening, it's limiting distractions, it's letting others talk and loving people through your face. That chapter is really just about if you don't know, if you have some basic conversation skills. These are kind of the. To make sure you're conversing well with people.
- [16:06]
Jim Daly
No, these are great principles. You also have four, I believe, different mindsets. Four different mindsets.
- [16:13]
Heather Holloman
Oh, this is the game changer.
- [16:14]
Jim Daly
Okay.
- [16:14]
Heather Holloman
Love that. The four mindsets will change your life. Do you want to add in anything? Well, Ash again comes here today as the introvert, right? The one.
- [16:22]
Ashley Holloman
Oh, yeah, that's the fun thing. We should probably lay that out for them.
- [16:24]
Heather Holloman
Yeah, lay that out for them.
- [16:26]
Ashley Holloman
As you can already tell, Heather's like, you know, really good at this and natural at this. I'm not. I'm more of an introvert. I stumble over my words. I think of the best thing to say, like 14 days later, you know, and so the joke that we have, but it's kind of true too, is because I think it helps people imagine, oh, I can do this. I don't have to be Heather or someone like Heather to do this is. I'm proof of concept, you know, if I can do this, anyone you know can do this, we can all grow in this. And so, yeah, but the mindsets have been super helpful with that.
- [16:55]
Heather Holloman
So in order to have a warm connection with anyone, but in this case, your spouse, you need to do four things. And if these four things are happening, you will feel a warm connection. So you're gonna be curious, you're gonna ask really good questions rooted in the six dimensions of what it means to be human. You're gonna believe the best, you're gonna express concern, and you're gonna share your life.
- [17:16]
Jim Daly
That's amazing.
- [17:16]
Heather Holloman
I know.
- [17:17]
Jim Daly
Yeah. So good. I think it's an obvious question. I don't know that we all know the answer, but what are the goals in creating conversation? I mean, do you. Do you have a goal in mind? Is it better not to have a goal in mind other than to be engaged, to make the eye contact, to ask values or.
- [17:38]
Heather Holloman
Well, this is what I loved. A lot of people might be listening and saying, well, I don't even know where this conversation should end. Why am I even doing this?
- [17:45]
Ashley Holloman
Why are we doing this?
- [17:46]
Heather Holloman
Yes. Well, what I learned, and this was so fascinating because the research just was lining right up to what scripture says. So in any conversation, here's where you want to end. You want to end in one of three ways. You want to encourage, help someone with their goals or lead to a state of marveling. This is a life changing principle. To imagine that every conversation with your spouse could lead you both to a state of awe. The research is astonishing. When you're in a state of awe, you're actually lowering your cortisol levels. You're doing so many good things for your mental health, but it relates to. As you think about the point of our lives as worshiping, think of the idea of speaking to each other in psalms and spiritual hymns. And the way to lead someone to a state of awe is to look for divine activity. So even this morning, mentioning someone talking to me in the hotel and ash is like, that's amazing. Do you think God, you know, sent that person to you? And we're marveling all of a sudden. So look for divine activity. Talk about the word together, talk about God together. But in any interaction with anyone, a neighbor, a child, you're thinking, how can I encourage this person? How can I help them with their goals? Or lead them to a state of marveling? Hebrews talks about spurring one another on towards love and good deeds. So and it's not hard to keep all these things in your mind. People may be listening, thinking, this is hard. I have four mindsets. I have six conversational pathways. I have, you know, these three fresh goals. It's actually not that hard to remember when you're with someone, like, okay, I can encourage this person. I can help them.
- [19:19]
Jim Daly
Yeah, yeah. And it's a good reason to get the book. And Jean has devoured this. She's read it seven, eight times and just loves the content. And I would say yes and amen. I'm getting it vicariously through Gene, and it's really, really awes.
- [19:36]
Let's speak right at the end here about conflict in marriage. You had a counselor who once gave you a suggestion for managing concerns. Let me frame this too. And again, I don't want to be stereotypical, but fear is often something that wives feel. Men can feel this too. But my experience has been there's a fear and control battle for wives and moms, where fear rises, control rises. But speak to this construct of managing concerns or managing fear if we put even a bigger label on it.
- [20:12]
Heather Holloman
Well, this related to that first year of marriage where I was complaining all the time. A lot of it was rooted in fear. You're absolutely right. But our marriage counselor gave us a life changing tip, which I'm gonna let Ash share, because I thought, this cannot work. But it really did work and it probably saved our marriage. It's called the Thursday. Are you ready for this?
- [20:31]
Ashley Holloman
This was great. It saved our marriage. It really did, I believe, because at that point in our marriage, we were just fighting about a lot of things, just trying to sort out what life was gonna look like.
- [20:39]
Jim Daly
Disagreeing. Disagreeing.
- [20:40]
Ashley Holloman
Yeah.
- [20:40]
Heather Holloman
Almost every conversation. Every conversation was negative.
- [20:43]
Ashley Holloman
We were curious and believing the best. No, we were. Maybe not so much, but we were just having a lot of things we had to work out. And he said, do you guys notice that a lot of your time is spent working on your marriage? And in a way of just your fighting and struggling? He goes, marriage is designed to be fun and light and enjoyable, but you're spending a lot of your time not doing that. He goes, what if you just set a time Thursdays where that would be where you worked on your marriage and the rest of the week you just enjoyed being married. And he goes, we're like, well, what do you do about, like, these things that happen in between? He goes, get a notebook, write it down. So you feel like you actually got to capture it. You got to express yourself a little bit. You didn't just lose it. And then Thursday's gonna come, don't worry. And you can talk about it when Thursday comes. But then Friday through Wednesday, go enjoy your life.
- [21:32]
Jim Daly
That's great.
- [21:32]
Ashley Holloman
And you know what happens is by the time you get to Thursday, the things that just seem so huge, you're like, oh, yeah, that was no big deal.
- [21:39]
Heather Holloman
It really helps. Do you guys like that? You like that idea?
- [21:41]
Jim Daly
I like it. I think it compartmentalizes it. And the other thing that you mentioned, Ashley, is it gives you time to reduce the. The catastrophic nature of it. Yes.
- [21:51]
Ashley Holloman
Everything is so important in that moment.
- [21:53]
Jim Daly
I mean, we used to. Gene and I would do that, especially when the boys were, like, in junior high. And, you know, I go to bed quick. So by 10 o', clock, my head's on the pillow, I'm ready to go out. And Gene would say, we need to talk about Trent. I'm like, wow.
- [22:07]
Heather Holloman
No, I know. Yes.
- [22:09]
Jim Daly
But to her credit, she recalibrated and realized when we're having coffee in the morning would be a great time to talk about what she wanted to talk about.
- [22:18]
Heather Holloman
That's a great point. Like choosing the right time.
- [22:21]
Jim Daly
It's so much of it.
- [22:22]
Heather Holloman
Yeah. Choosing the right time.
- [22:23]
Jim Daly
Yeah.
- [22:24]
Ashley Holloman
That was the other advice that I was given. Like, nothing good happens after 10 o'. Clock. So just like, don't go to bed angry, but just kind of table it to the morning.
- [22:31]
Jim Daly
Let's end right here with this obvious question. The husband and wife, who may not have that warm connection, they've kind of been in that rut for a long time. And it's just habit now that we don't compliment each other, we take each other for granted. What's one thing other than reading the book that they could do, like, tonight? What could we do differently tonight to help us?
- [22:56]
Heather Holloman
Do we each get to say one thing?
- [22:57]
Jim Daly
Yeah, let's do it that way.
- [22:58]
Heather Holloman
I would say, and this is a little trick I learned to ask your spouse. This is what you say, I want to have a warm connection with you. What question are you hoping I'll ask you about your life?
- [23:08]
Jim Daly
Oh, Gene would love that. Yeah.
- [23:10]
Ashley Holloman
I would say go back to the believing the best part. And one of the questions you can ask is, or one of the way of expressing liking is, do you remember the time we did? Just a shared memory. And I think being able to go back and reminisce, like, about good times, like, there were good times. There are strengths to our marriage. Can we remember those and just kind of believe that good times will come again?
- [23:33]
John Fuller
Inspiring thoughts from Ashley and Heather Holloman today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And I trust that you picked up a few ideas on how you can be better at communication with your spouse every day.
- [23:46]
Jim Daly
Well, I love what Ashley was just saying there about remembering the good times you've had in your marriage because those are the strengths that hold you together when it's not that good. And if you're in a season where those good times don't seem to come as often or at all, I hope you'll give us a call.
- [24:04]
John Fuller
Yeah. We have caring Christian counselors here who can offer some insight. We'll set up a free consultation with one of them. They'll give you a call back. As I said, it's free. Our donors help cover the costs of that service. And they're going to be listening to you, praying with you and offering steps you can take toward some healing.
- [24:23]
Jim Daly
And beyond that, John, we offer our Hope Restored Marriage Intensives. This is a great program. I don't know of anything better going on in the United States and Canada. These are for couples who have real trouble with their relationship, maybe at the point of divorce. And it has excellent success rate in follow up surveys. Two years later, over 80% of couples report that they're still married and doing better. We also have the outstanding book by Heather Holloman, the Six Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility, which is full of biblical insight and practical ways to interact with those around you. I'm telling you, this is one of Gene's favorite books and she has devoured it. We'd love to send that to you for a donation of any amount today. And again, no amount is too small when you contribute to the work we do here at Focus on the Family. You're helping people like Kristin, who wrote in to tell us this. I've been listening to your show for months now, never realizing how relevant it would soon become when I later discovered my husband's affair. God used what I'd heard on your program to soften my heart and give me the strength to extend grace and seek healing. Today, through counseling and prayer, our marriage is being restored. Thank you for the life changing work you do to strengthen families like ours. And I think the point there, John, is thank you to the donors who make it happen.
- [25:57]
John Fuller
Yeah.
- [25:57]
Jim Daly
Yeah.
- [25:58]
John Fuller
That's amazing, Jim. And she's just one of the many who turn to focus on the family every day.
- [26:03]
Jim Daly
Yeah. And over the past 12 months, more than 530,000 couples say they have built stronger marriages with the help of Focus on the Family. And in that same time frame, we've helped more than 140,000 marriages in crisis to make significant progress toward saving their marriage. Don't you want to be a part of that kind of ministry? These are big impact numbers and you can join us in that effort and support us. This Christmas season is the perfect time to deliver hope and joy to families in crisis. Through your support on the Family, you can continue to provide that much needed help to folks like Kristin when you do your ministry through Focus on the Family. So step up for couples in crisis and donate today.
- [26:53]
John Fuller
Yeah, call today and contribute generously as you can. We'll also be happy to tell you more, of course, about Hope restored and about Heather's book the Six Conversations. Just give us a call 800, the letter A in the word Family 800-232-6459 or stop by the Show Notes and you'll find the links right there. You're also going to see an opportunity to sign up for a free audio collection of this year's most popular Focus on the Family. With Gym Daily episodes. You're going to find encouragement for overcoming trauma, strengthening your marriage, improving your parenting, and growing in your faith, all from a trust biblical perspective. The 20 featured programs include insights from the late Dr. Gregory Jantz, J. John Lee Strobel, Gary Chapman, Sheila Walsh and many, many more. Sign up for that free audio collection at our website. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in corporations.
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Jim Daly
Jesus Christ is the ultimate source of truth. As we celebrate his birth this Christmas, I hope you'll be inspired to share God's truth with grace and love. Become better equipped by listening to my podcast Refocus with Jim Daly from Focus on the Family. Every episode, I talk to fascinating guests about important cultural issues and how we can reach people from for Christ and share his Joy. Listen at refocuswithjimdaily.com or wherever you get your podcasts.