← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:04]
Trillia Newbell
It is said that she shouted something to Frederick Douglass. Frederick, is God dead? That was her question. It was a rhetorical question because he.
- [00:14]
Jim Daly
Was kind of down and discouraged.
- [00:16]
Trillia Newbell
Yes, he was down and discouraged. And so she said, frederick, is God dead set. Because she believed so deeply that God was not only very much alive that he had the power to take those who were enslaved and make them free.
- [00:33]
John Fuller
That's Trillia Newbell sharing about the incredible faith of the leaders of the abolitionist movement. She's joining us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to help you celebrate Black History Month with your family from a Christian perspective. Thanks for joining us today. I'm John Fuller.
- [00:49]
Jim Daly
John, we want to equip everybody as best as we can during Black History Month to honor the Lord and to better understand, especially from a Christian perspective, black history. And that's one of the things that I think all of us could do a much better job understanding. And, you know, we talk about the racial and ethnic diversity that is occurring in every home. We are talking about it in some way. I know my boys and I have about relationships that we have, people that I've met. And it's great to better understand culture. And that's what we're talking about today.
- [01:22]
John Fuller
Yeah. And Trillia Newbell is sharing her expertise here. She's married to Thurn. They have two teens and she' a terrific book called Celebrating around the Learning the Stories of Black Christians through Readings, Fellowship, food and faith. You can learn more about our guest and this great resource when you stop by the show notes Trilya.
- [01:43]
Jim Daly
Welcome back to FOCUS on the family.
- [01:45]
Trillia Newbell
Thank you for having me. I am so excited to be here.
- [01:48]
Jim Daly
Yeah, it's fun to have you back. Now, what inspired you to write Celebrating around the Table, which I think is a great theme.
- [01:55]
Trillia Newbell
Yes. Thank you. You know, what inspired me is what we do in our home. Every February, my celebrates Black History Month in a real special and intentional way. And so this was just a family tradition that we do. So we talk about people in history, we listen to music, we eat food, and we talk around the table about what we are learning that month. And we have different themes. And because of that, I thought, you know, this is something that maybe we should do beyond our family. In other words, I thought it could be a resource to help others. And every time I did it, year after year, I'd put it on something like Instagram and friends would ask, hey, where's a copy of that? Or how can I do it in my home? And so I thought, here we Go, let's create something.
- [02:40]
Jim Daly
So it's the book. How would you encourage a parent who's nervous about talking about race? You know, race has so many. I don't know how to say, just so many tentacles and sensitivities that even my boys and I, when we go to talk about something that occurred, you could tell they're very sensitive, they're in their 20s. But everybody seems to be a little on edge when it comes to talking, even within the family, about racial issues.
- [03:06]
Trillia Newbell
Absolutely. Well, I think there's a few reasons for that. I believe it's so politically charged that people come with it from that angle, typically. But what I've tried to do in all of my writing is to think of it biblically. When we do that, I believe it helps build a different foundation and we can come with it with faith and truth. And so I do believe that there is a way that we can kind of rescue it from politics and ask, well, what does God's word say about this? And that will change the focus on how we approach it. Now, we still do need to talk about the hard political aspects, but that is not the first way that we should approach it as Christians. And I think it changes things.
- [03:54]
Jim Daly
Well, I'm kind of smiling inside because just about anything that occurs in life, if we start with a biblical perspective, we're going to be in a better place. I believe that whether it's race or the life issue or marriage or whatever it might be 100% when we're looking at it through the biblical lens, there's wisdom there. In that regard, though, when we look at a biblical perspective on race, I think it was Frederick Douglass, an amazing human being, but this idea of all of us being made in God's image, I think now it's hard to believe that people did not believe that at one time, that we're all human beings, all made in God's image, regardless of the color of our skin. I mean, that's not the differentiator for being human.
- [04:40]
Trillia Newbell
Well, the reality is that people continue to struggle with that idea. And so if we can start in Genesis 1, that God created us all in the image of God and that we are all created to reflect him. If we can start there, then who we know that the ground is level, that we are equal because God has created us equally, that we have value because God has given us value. And so it starts there. And Frederick Douglass, I mean, he experienced such pain and suffering, and he went to the Bible, and that was what was such a guiding principle for him to know God created me with dignity. And so because of this, I want to make sure that I help everyone I can to know this truth, to experience the reality of this truth. He didn't even know his real age because he that dignity had been stripped from him. And so the scriptures helped him. And then it's what ignited him to be an abolitionist and to fight for others freedom.
- [05:47]
Jim Daly
You know, some people may not even understand the history of Frederick Douglass. I mean, he lived about the time of Abraham Lincoln, he was a slave. He taught himself how to read, obviously read the word of God and became a prolific thinker and writer. But I can't imagine that he didn't have influence on President Lincoln, that he met with him and talked with him and they wrote letters to each other, speak to the history of that man and his influence generally.
- [06:17]
Trillia Newbell
Yes, well, you're right. What's interesting to me is, and I don't have the quotes memorize, but that you can find them in celebrating around the table. But he believed very strongly in education. So he knew that if he could read, he would have the power to influence others and to also affect great change. And so reading and education became something very important to him. And that is what empowered him also to write. So he wrote his own narrative, he wrote his own autobiography. He wrote in papers. He wrote and wrote and wrote so that he could educate other people about the terrible realities of slavery. And it inspired a nation, it inspired so many people, including, yes, presidents. He spoke with presidents. He was invited to tables that you would not think someone who was once enslaved was invited to at the age of 21. That's when he began. Now think about all of us now. At the age of 21, I was not thinking about going out and being an abolitionist and speaking. And it's just remarkable. The things that people did, all the.
- [07:34]
Jim Daly
People at that time were amazing. I mean, in fourth grade they're learning Greek and Latin and you're going, wow. I mean, those primers that you read are college level. And this was elementary school back then. It's amazing and it's quite phenomenal. But I think one of the great things with Frederick Douglass, if I could add that that premise is still true. Education is still a way up and out of bad situations. That was true for me growing up in poor white family, you know, getting a college degree and getting a job and, you know, the fundamental things that you need to do correctly that help you. And I would say that's God's wisdom. You know, there's nothing, you know, Bizarre about that. It's just if you do the right things in the right order, good benefits come from that. Getting married, then having children, for example, and doing school ahead of that. Those are all good indications of blessings to come.
- [08:26]
Trillia Newbell
Yes. And it empowers you. It empowers you to speak and to be able to help those in need who maybe cannot, maybe don't have those resources, but you can then speak on their behalf. Can I tell you something else about Frederick Douglass?
- [08:39]
Jim Daly
Absolutely.
- [08:40]
Trillia Newbell
He is known as one of the most photographed people in history, and that's when photographs started. Yes. Which I think is amazing and remarkable. So we have so many photographs of him. And the reason he did it is that he wanted to help share a different narrative about black people. And all of his images are very regal and beautiful and poised. And I just find that one of the most interesting aspects of him.
- [09:11]
Jim Daly
Yeah. Let me ask you about another person that probably is less well known than Frederick Douglass and that Sojourner Truth. And this is a woman, a powerful person that lived about the same time. But speak about her and her contribution.
- [09:27]
Trillia Newbell
Yes. Sojourner Truth was treated terribly, Absolutely terribly enslaved. And I actually am going to tell you about her influence on Frederick Douglass. It is said that she shouted something to Frederick Douglass. Frederick, is God dead? That was her question. It was a rhetorical question.
- [09:48]
Jim Daly
Because he was kind of down and discouraged.
- [09:50]
Trillia Newbell
Yes, he was down and discouraged. And so she said, frederick, is God dead? Because she believed so deeply that God was not only very much alive, that he had the power to take those who were enslaved and make them free. And Sojourner's truth story is pretty remarkable. But that aspect of it, I think is amazing. And so many of these abolitionists encourage one another. Oh, yeah. Which makes sense.
- [10:19]
Jim Daly
What's interesting about that is just like a woman to say, okay, this guy is down. I need to encourage him. Right. To say, hey, come on. God's not dead. Don't act like he is. Let's go.
- [10:30]
Trillia Newbell
Let's go.
- [10:31]
Jim Daly
It's so difficult. We tend to get there. You know, we're not achieving the goals that we have as men. And a good woman will say, hey, rethink where you're at.
- [10:41]
Trillia Newbell
Rethink. Yes. So that's good.
- [10:43]
Jim Daly
That's great. Some people throughout history have even made claims about the Bible supporting slavery. You have a little different take about that. I mean, one of the things I've observed is, you know, I'm Irish. I mean, the Irish were slaves. The whole world operated in a slave economy. The US Experience was brutal. And that we cannot, you know, walk away from. We have to look at that and, you know, understand what was taking place with that particular type of slavery. But slavery was the economic engine of that era for like, 3,000 years around the globe.
- [11:24]
Trillia Newbell
Yes. Okay, so you actually answered that question because there is a difference between the US Chattel slavery and the kind of economic. Still not good. But the economic slavery that a lot of people experienced, where they would have indentured servants, people who would be paying back for something still not great. We don't want slavery, I think, should be abolished, period. In every form. However, chattel slavery was a unique, terrible institution that the United States enabled. And so that. It's a different type of story.
- [12:04]
Jim Daly
Give me some of those adjectives. I know they're difficult, but so that we understand it. I mean, I talked to one good friend, black gentleman, and he just said, you know, what. What people don't understand when we look at the breakdown of family. I mean, our families were broken down through the slavery experience. We did not stay together typically.
- [12:21]
Trillia Newbell
Yeah.
- [12:21]
Jim Daly
Our wives were taken from us, our children were taken from us. That's a different perspective as we look at the impact, Generational impact of that and the issues of family within the black community.
- [12:33]
Trillia Newbell
Well, if you look at any of the people that I have featured in the book, almost every single one of them, Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, were ripped from their families. So they had brothers and sisters completely ripped. And I can't actually fathom it. And so that kind of tearing apart of the family, we should not have support anything like that, period. And so it's so unchristian.
- [13:02]
Jim Daly
Correct. Going back to the biblical slavery description, how do you see that then, what the Bible's talking about in terms of support or not supporting slavery?
- [13:12]
Trillia Newbell
Right. So when Paul, for example, is encouraging the people in Ephesus to honor the slave and for the slave to obey their master, he is not encouraging chattel slavery.
- [13:25]
Jim Daly
He's not condoning it.
- [13:26]
Trillia Newbell
He's not condoning it. Yes. And so I think that there is a lot of confusion when people read the Bible and they try to modernize it and not put it in the context of first century and what's going on then, which we've already discussed a lot of it. We're indentured servants, people who were being hired, for lack of better word, so that they could pay back something or. And so this was a different type of slavery. Now there still was slavery. That was where people owned them and they were mistreated. So I don't Want to also glorify first century institutions because there was still that kind of abuse that was experienced. However, when Paul is encouraging them to, he is saying, hey, this is now your brother or your sister. They are made in the image of God. They are equal to you. You should honor them and love them like your neighbor. They are your neighbor. And that is a different type of mandate. That's a Christian mandate. So when we take that and say, oh, he believed that chattel slavery was okay, God would have affirmed it then. I think we are misapplying and misreading the scriptures. And so I think it's really important that we read through and that we. The context of the time. Another thing that was not great about the US what we did and what people did in the US for those who were enslaved, there were Bibles that were slave Bibles, where there were things like we are all created in the image of God. Those kinds of teachings were pulled out. So anything that would be the slave is free. Right. Pulled out of the text so that those who read it would not be able to experience from the Holy Spirit that reality.
- [15:28]
Jim Daly
Oh, wow.
- [15:28]
Trillia Newbell
Yeah.
- [15:29]
Jim Daly
You know, and it seems that the difficulty is when you're experiencing that, when you're the recipient of that, there is two paths. What you would, I think, describe as a gospel reaction. Some people that see that within, I would think within the black community would say, no, that's too kind. That's not what I'm gonna do anymore. Because that's what they've used to abuse us. So part A of my question, I guess, is what is the biblical response that you would give to somebody within your community about that hesitation or disdain to engage the gospel because of the way sinners have used the gospel against you? Right. And then the other part is just that idea of the other path and the courage it takes for anybody who is oppressed, again, starting with the black community. But many people are oppressed for different reasons. But how do we as Christians, how do we nurture that path? So speak to the two paths. The two paths, if I could ask you, the one that has disdain for the gospel because it's can empower or seem to empower people to brutalize other people. And then the other, which is the true gospel of forgiveness and love and the fruit of the Spirit.
- [16:57]
Trillia Newbell
Right. Well, one of the errors, I think with the first path is that there is an assumption that forgiveness is like a doormat, that you're not then taking action. But if you read the stories of Frederick Douglass, of Harriet Tubman, of Sojourner Truth. They were people who worked very hard to forgive and take action. So it's not a doormat response. You can, in your heart, ask the Lord to transform those who oppress. You can pray for those, which is also action. You can pray for those who are doing wrong. You can share the gospel with boldness and believe that the gospel is true and that it does have the power to reconcile even if people are doing, hey, the gospel's true. So you can do all of those things and proclaim all of those things, while also speaking to injustice and taking action and sharing and marching, whatever. So I think that the problem with what people view as that first path is that often people see it as non action.
- [18:09]
Jim Daly
And I think in part, from a human perspective, it's totally understandable that you run out of patience. Oh, yes, you know, your tank gets emptied and you're tired of it, and then there's a response. But the higher call for every human being, again, regardless of color, is Luke 6. How do we treat our enemy? No matter if you're from the Middle east, from Africa, from Europe, from anywhere, Asia, I mean, this is applicable to all human beings 100%. From a gospel perspective, how do we treat the oppressor? How do we treat the one that is wounding us, the enemy?
- [18:44]
Trillia Newbell
Well, we look to Jesus, who was despised, who was beaten, who was people turned away from him. His friends abandoned him. And what did he do? He died on a cross bearing the wrath that we deserved. He rose victoriously, and he provides forgiveness for all anyone who would believe. None of us deserve it. And yet he is our example of someone who walked a perfect life, who lived a perfect life, who died. And I'm going to cry, but it is true. And so if Jesus, who experienced the ultimate oppression, can do that, we can, by his power and by his grace. And we need his power and grace to do that. Now, I will say there have been moments where I remember one time someone said something to me that was very. Not just discouraging, it was wrong. And I went into my hotel room. I was speaking at an event, and I went into my hotel room and I wept. And I thought to myself, why am I doing this? Is it worth anything? Can I keep going? So, yeah, there are gonna be times when you are like Frederick Douglass and you're like, I'm giving up. And then Sojourner Truth whispers in your ear, is God dead? No. And so that is the reality of everyone who is working hard for the gospel. There are times when it's very Discouraging. But then there are other times when you're sharing. And I remember I was sharing with some teenager, it was a big assembly and a principal came up to me and he confessed sin and in front of his staff. And I thought, okay, yes, God is working powerfully, it's worth it.
- [20:30]
Jim Daly
That's so good. I mean, and I think, you know, as we near zeroing in on the end here, I want to raise this question about the other path, this idea that the gospel has direct aim on racial unity. That is God's desire for us, that we are created in his image with equalness as human beings. I mean, equal outcomes, that's not going to be what it is. But equalness in being made in his image and we need to give each other dignity for that. And hopefully people rise to achieve their ability. Right, so in that context, speak to that gospel that is about reconciliation, racial reconciliation. What does that look like?
- [21:20]
Trillia Newbell
Yeah, well, it starts in Genesis 1, which I've already talked about, but I just, I think if we don't start there, if we don't start with the foundation that God created us in the image of him and that he has created us equally, we'll go all over the place. So got to start where he starts. But we see that the veil of hostility has been torn in the body of Jesus Christ, that He has united us. Ephesians, we know this. And that he has created one new man, the Christian. And so we are walking in accordance to that.
- [21:50]
Jim Daly
Right, Jew or Greek, Jew or Greek, as the New Testament says.
- [21:53]
Trillia Newbell
Yes. And so we can come together because of Jesus, that He has made that possible. And we have a calling to be reconciled to one another all throughout the Scriptures. All we have to do is open our Bibles and we will read from Genesis to Revelation. In Revelation we see that every tribe, tongue and nation will be worshiping together. We will all be proclaiming the same gospel, the same glory, the same thank you to the Lord. Together, united. And I have prayed and my prayer continues to be, lord, would you bring heaven to earth? Can we experience that now?
- [22:30]
Jim Daly
And what did he say?
- [22:32]
Trillia Newbell
He said, yes, preach the gospel. He said, it's coming. But he said there is. I really do believe that there is a reality that already. Not yet. Yet there's a reality here right now that the Gospel has power today.
- [22:44]
Jim Daly
It's here.
- [22:44]
Trillia Newbell
It's here. And so we can proclaim it and see people be reconciled. And we see it now. Does that mean that we will see complete and full on this earth? No, it won't. Be complete and full until he returns. But we will get tastes of heaven. We will get glimpses of it. And I've seen it. And that's why I believe, because I've seen the power of the gospel be displayed in people's lives. And so read the Scriptures and I think that we will be motivated to love our neighbor as ourselves. But it doesn't happen unless we repent. We have to confess where we have gone wrong. And God says he is faithful in just to forgive us and to purify us. 1 John 1:9.
- [23:26]
Jim Daly
Yeah. You know, I love that scripture. You know, again, my own experience growing up poor, it's nothing like slavery in America. I'm not equating it to that. But you know, those circumstances of poverty or whatever they might be, the scripture says he's close to the brokenhearted and saves those crushed. And spirit, if that's you, God knows you and he cares about you and he loves you. And I think when that person can turn to the Lord and embrace the Lord, it has to put the biggest smile on God's face because he's got you at your weakest point. You know, when things are down, when things are not good. I just think the Lord's heart is for that person in ways that we don't even understand. For the person in the tower on the mountaintop, I think it is different. I don't think you have quite the understanding of suffering the way God felt it here on earth. And then his compassion and empathy for those who suffer. I think it's far deeper than we understand.
- [24:29]
Trillia Newbell
Well, and it's all throughout the Scriptures. He will never leave nor forsake us tribulation. Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. And so all throughout Scriptures we see that he does draw near to the brokenhearted. He will never. He upholds us by his righteous right hand. And so I believe that historically that is what kept people. When you look at the people in history who experienced the deep pain of this slavery, that they only had God and that's what they leaned on.
- [25:03]
Jim Daly
And it's so good. I mean, again, I think many human beings mess up the gospel because we don't live it well. And you know, if we could live it perfectly, we would have a very different world. And we would have since the time Jesus came. But we don't always express it appropriately and accurately. And that's to our shame as Christians. And you know, I so appreciate you coming and what a great resource celebrating around the table. It's got some excellent recipes.
- [25:33]
Trillia Newbell
Thank you.
- [25:34]
Jim Daly
But what a wonderful resource and beautiful book, too. Hardcover book and again, highlighting heroes, black heroes of the faith that did amazing things and the many things that we could learn from them. Everybody and I so appreciate you being with us. Thank you.
- [25:51]
Trillia Newbell
Thank you.
- [25:53]
Jim Daly
All right, everybody get a copy of this book. What a wonderful idea. Do one or two of the recipes, sit down at the table, talk about Black History Month. That's what February is for. And it's a great way to do that and get your children more engaged with understanding the culture of the entire country. Not just the culture of where you might have come from, but what others have experienced being here in the United States. And you know, if you send a gift of any amount, we'll send you this beautiful book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry and get to work on doing those recipes.
- [26:27]
John Fuller
Donate to get your copy of Trillia's book. Today celebrating around the table learning the stories of blood Christians through readings, fellowship, food and faith. Our number is 800-232-6459, 800 the letter A in the word family. Or you can donate and get the book when you stop by. The episode notes and thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. How do you and your spouse connect spiritually? Would you like to be closer? Focus on the Family invites you to Listen to the Lovingwell Podcast Season 8, just released, and your hosts, Dr. Greg and Erin Smalley, share insights and humor from their own marriage of over 30 years. And they'll offer you practical ideas to strengthen your marriage by focusing on God. Listen, follow and grow together with the LovingWell podcast. You'll find it at Focusonthefamily.com LovingWell.