← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:00]
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- [01:02]
Courtney Ellis
Stuff can have effects on your spirit, effects on your emotional health. And living in this cluttered place really started to get to me and the stuff was part of it. My overstuffed schedule was part of it, but I began to feel like I almost couldn't breathe because my life had too much in it.
- [01:19]
John Fuller
That's Courtney Ellis describing the circumstances that led her away from anxiety to a spiritual journey where she and her family discovered a new, deeper relationship with God. Today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, Courtney is back with us to share more of her rather remarkable story. We're so glad you've joined us. I'm John Fuller.
- [01:39]
Jim Daly
John I so appreciated Courtney's vulnerability last time just talking about things that she and her husband Darrell have changed to actually make more space for God. And that's a good thing. And everybody resonates with the idea of unclutter, right? The title of the book, how do I make more space in my life by getting rid of stuff I never use or rarely use to my schedule to even technology we talked about last time and we're going to continue to have this discussion. There's so many good elements in this book. I make fun of some of the decluttering books, but they're good for us. And I am a clutter free guy. I throw everything away to my demise, even phone numbers that Gene is trying to keep. I mean, I'm like, whoa, everything's out of here and you know, I have to learn to die. But I love the subject because it is a spiritual truth that the Lord put boundaries around his activity. I think you can make a case that keeping a clutter free environment is a way to have God's Shalom in your life. Peace. So if you're feeling stressed, which I think is probably going to be everybody, this is going to be for you.
- [02:49]
John Fuller
It's much more than just stuff in our rooms. It's a lot more than that. And Courtney Ellis is here again. She's a wonderful speaker, writer, podcaster. And Jim, you mentioned the book already. It's called Uncluttered, Free youe Space, Free youe Schedule, Free youe Soul. And we'll encourage you to get a copy of that book from us here. Our number is 800, the letter A in the word family. Or just stop by the Show Notes. We've got the links right there for you.
- [03:16]
Jim Daly
John, before Courtney jumps in here, I want to just read a scripture I think that lays the framework for us today, Matthew 6, which says this. Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal and. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. I mean, that's right in your face, you know. So, Courtney, welcome back.
- [03:45]
Courtney Ellis
Thanks for having me.
- [03:46]
Jim Daly
Yeah. What do you think of Matthew 6? Do you resonate with that?
- [03:49]
Courtney Ellis
I love it. I love it. It speaks to me on many, many levels.
- [03:52]
Jim Daly
Did you always love it? That's the question.
- [03:54]
Courtney Ellis
I do.
- [03:55]
Jim Daly
Back when. When you may be a little more cluttered. Was that as clear to you as it is today?
- [04:01]
Courtney Ellis
It wasn't. I really, really had to begin digging into the why. Why was I trying to keep so many things? And I realized ultimately it came down to a lack of trust. I needed to prepare for every possible eventuality in my life. And I couldn't trust the Lord to provide and to care. And I was. I was shoring up treasures on earth so that I would be safe no matter what. And God calls us to live in trust and in faith. And my possessions were beginning to own.
- [04:29]
Jim Daly
Yeah. And you're leaning into something I was going to ask a little later, but this is a good time. That concept of, you know, for a rainy day.
- [04:36]
Courtney Ellis
Yes.
- [04:36]
Jim Daly
It's not exactly how you said it, but it's the same concept, you know, so a person can rationalize, you know, I need this pair of prom dress shoes. This is what we talked about yesterday with your husband, Darrell. I love that. I want to meet Darryl. He's great, but he's held onto these prom shoes for quite a long time because of the sentimental value. I get that. And we all do that to a degree. But when you get down to practical reality, really, when are you ever going to wear those prom shoes?
- [05:02]
Courtney Ellis
He's got plans.
- [05:04]
Jim Daly
But that idea of rationalizing, keeping more than you should, because someday some catastrophe could happen and I might need that 400 pound bag of licorice, right?
- [05:14]
Courtney Ellis
And we're all going to fit in our high school jeans again. So you have to hold on to those, all of us. So there's.
- [05:21]
Jim Daly
I'm looking sad right now. I left that goal a long time ago.
- [05:26]
Courtney Ellis
I'm like, okay, after I've had the third baby, we're just going get rid of the high school. The high school.
- [05:30]
Jim Daly
You wouldn't go to the high school. 32, Gene.
- [05:33]
Courtney Ellis
Right. But there, there is something to that, to, to digging into the why. And there's a wonderful group called the Minimalists. And their rule on just in case items is if you can get it in under 20 minutes for under $20, you have permission to get rid of it. Because we can fill our entire houses with things for the just in case moment that might never occur. But in the meantime, we've got to dust it, we've got to store it, we've got to find space for it and that away at our time and our attention. And those are two of our most precious commodities.
- [06:04]
Jim Daly
Here's a funny one. I've got two generators, you know, gas generators, in case one breaks down and.
- [06:11]
John Fuller
You let me borrow one.
- [06:12]
Jim Daly
Yeah, it worked in that.
- [06:13]
John Fuller
And the one that you gave me was the one that worked.
- [06:15]
Jim Daly
That was so kind of you. Yeah, that's the one that wasn't working for me. But you figured out how to get it started. That's how mechanically disinclined I am. He comes over and starts right up. I've been trying to start this thing for five years.
- [06:27]
Courtney Ellis
That's a good friend to have.
- [06:27]
Jim Daly
That's a true story.
- [06:28]
John Fuller
I'll buy it from you, Jeff.
- [06:29]
Jim Daly
No, I know you offer. I'm keeping that one. But in that context, yeah, you could really over rationalize. One of the huge benefits, Courtney, from your decluttering process was the ability to hear God more clearly. Again, what's so funny? With the Lord's principles, simple things matter to him. We look for the big thing. Lord, what do you want me to do with my life? Which is a good question. But Lord, seriously, you want me to declutter my house? I mean, that doesn't really rise, but there's a freedom that comes from it. You compare hearing from God to something Elijah went through in the old Testament. I think it was in First Kings. What did Elijah learn about listening to God in that context that we could all learn?
- [07:12]
Courtney Ellis
I love this story. This is one of those stories that children love, that adults love. It speaks to all of us. But Elijah goes out to hear from God. God calls him out into the wilderness to listen. And he's on the edge of this mountain, and there's a fire, and God is not in the fire. There's a great wind, and God is not in the wind. There's an earthquake, and Scripture says God was not in the earthquake. And then after all of this is a silence, and the still, small voice of God can be heard. And so often we are so busy and our lives are so full. He said, God is calling us to these big things, but we can't hear that voice. And it's like walking around with a backpack full of bricks. And we're like, God, I want to do great things for you, but I'm really tired. Why am I so tired? And God's like, take off the backpack, set down the bricks. That's our schedule. That's our stuff. When we overfill our lives, it becomes very difficult to hear from God. And God is often so gentle with us. God doesn't shout us down. He could, but God speaks most often. We see this in Scripture, in this still, small voice. Are we listening? Can we hear?
- [08:19]
Jim Daly
You also describe how God is listening to us and wants to hear from us regularly. I think some of us, as Christians, you know, pray without ceasing. I mean, I was thinking about that the other morning. I mean, maybe I could do that in my spirit, and I'm even unconscious about it, but that's a big thing, to pray unceasingly, really. I got to clean up my mower, you know. But, you know, not to be disrespectful or anything like that, but it does kind of point to the direction you're trying to outline in your book here. You got to take the bricks out so you can do those things and talk to God regularly.
- [08:55]
Courtney Ellis
Absolutely. And there is a sense that as we begin to follow God more faithfully in our lives, our lives themselves become a prayer. You can clean out your bookshelf faithfully for the Lord, and that is an act of prayer. You can keep time for Sabbath in your schedule, and that is an act of prayer. I think I was raised to believe that praying was always many, many words, but it isn't. Prayer can be through action. Prayer can be through silence. Elijah is communing with God in Prayer in that time of silence. And so the more I uncluttered my schedule, the more I uncluttered my shelves, the more space there was where I could really begin to hear from God through scripture, through conversations with my husband, through the work of my church in a deeper way.
- [09:36]
Jim Daly
Yeah. Sometimes I feel in tune in ways that I'm not. At other times, like seeing God's work around me and it feels like my eyes spiritually are really open. Wow, look at that little thing and look at that thing and look at that big thing. And I guess the art of that, if I could say it's an art, it's how to slow down and be able to listen and see and see what God is doing Again. Sometimes we're at such a pace with our schedule, whatever it might be, we're like breezing by. It's like going through a town and you never saw an off ramp.
- [10:07]
Courtney Ellis
Yeah. The most surprising thing to me in writing the book was I was writing it to get myself out of this panic. I was writing it for me, and it was going to be about less. But the more I wrote, the more it was about more that what God wants is us to live with open hands and stop clinging to our stuff and our busyness so that God can fill us with more of himself, of the freedom of the hospitality, of the love of Sabbath, all of these beautiful, deep things that you cannot buy and you cannot schedule.
- [10:34]
Jim Daly
Yeah. Moving into hospitality. It's funny you mentioned that, because that was the next topic I wanted to cover with you. I wouldn't have connected the idea of decluttering to move you toward better hospitality or margin for hospitality. So why do you believe that connection exists?
- [10:56]
Courtney Ellis
My biggest hurdle, and I think it's true of many parents of young children, my biggest hurdle to hospitality was the house was a mess. And the more stuff you have, the easier it is for the house to be a mess. When we began to let go of possessions, suddenly that tidying was a lot easier. But also God had to reframe the whole idea of hospitality. It's not about beautiful Martha Stewart dinner party. It's about inviting in the weary traveler or the next door neighbor who's had a really harried week. It's not about impressing. It's about loving and caring for.
- [11:28]
Jim Daly
How do you. How did you. And I'm thinking for the wives, the moms who you know so often, this is a reflection of them. So. And I get that. I'm not critical of that. But to not have the house just right for that Couple coming over for dinner tonight, it reflects upon me and my lack of ability to keep it together. Whatever voice she's hearing inside her head. How did you get to the point to actually relax and say, you know, tidy is good enough. It doesn't have to be spick and span? And I think a lot of women particularly struggle with that concept that clean enough is clean enough.
- [12:08]
Courtney Ellis
One of the phrases you'll most often hear if you come to our house unexpected as the laundry is on the couch, but it's clean. That's the bar. The laundry is on the couch, but it's clean. No. I had to realize that the hospitality piece is about loving the other person. It's not about, how do I look in this situation. And I had to lower the bar a little bit. Discovered is when you invite friends in and your house is not perfect, it is a grace to them. There are the few people who will be a little judgy, but that's about them, not about you. But mostly people read that as, oh.
- [12:40]
Jim Daly
You'Re just like me.
- [12:41]
Courtney Ellis
Yes, you're not perfect. I can have you over now. And it doesn't. You know, when I visit a friend's house to drop a kid off for a play date and that friend is in a bathrobe, I read that as trust and love. You know, you trust me enough to meet me here.
- [12:54]
Jim Daly
That is so good. I love that. I think it's great. In fact, you say, you know, the biblical hospitality is being with, not doing for. And that's a great concept that fits right there. You know, you're not having to perform for the person to show them biblical hospitality.
- [13:13]
Courtney Ellis
Yes. And hospitality doesn't always have to take place in your home. When we were in that tiny condo, we couldn't host many people at a time. You can go to the park, you can go to the restaurant. It is about the being with and the caring for and the reaching out more than the space in which you're hosting.
- [13:28]
Jim Daly
In fact, you and Darrell keep a photograph of two ships kind of leaning in in a dry harbor. I think I can imagine what that looks like. But why does that have any significance for you?
- [13:38]
Courtney Ellis
That points back to that marriage mission we talked about, where one of the things we feel God is continually calling us to is to be a port in the storm for people who have been through church hurt, for people who are new to the faith and coming out of really battered backgrounds. But to say, you're safe here and you're seen here and you're love and the ships are not clean and pristine and beautiful. They're really battered, but they're leaning on each other. And I think there's a gospel metaphor there.
- [14:03]
Jim Daly
I like that. I've never heard that term church hurt, but I get it. Yeah, I understand it well.
- [14:08]
John Fuller
This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And our guest today is Courtney Ellis. And she has a terrific book. I know you can hear her heart. And there's so much good stuff in this book. It's called Free youe Space, Free youe Schedule, Free youe Soul. And we'd invite you to get a copy, make a generous donation as you can when you call 800, the letter A in the word family, or stop by the show notes and we've got the details right there for you.
- [14:35]
Jim Daly
Courtney. The chapter on uncluttered kids, I mean, I think I was somewhat mindful in that way. Maybe not as much as I should have been to help teach them these principles. But in that regard, when they're really little, I mean, they're just coming in, you're having your firstborn, all of a sudden you got a lot of stuff. You got the crib and you got all the electrical socket blockers and you got the cupboard holders. I put all that stuff in. I mean, day one, right?
- [15:04]
John Fuller
Gotta be safe.
- [15:04]
Jim Daly
All of a sudden I'm getting all this stuff. And of course you're getting the diapers and everything. And how do you. It's a season and that's gonna happen. And those are probably must haves. You want to make sure your home is safe and all that. But as time progresses, how can that get out of control? And how do you maintain teaching your child uncluttered environment?
- [15:27]
Courtney Ellis
It's cumulative, the kid stuff, right? It adds and adds and adds. So part of it is to go through things every six months or every year and say, we're out of this phase now. I don't need the baby bathtub anymore. You know, the babies all bathe themselves now. Even the 4 year old likes it. She does itself. So to go through things phase by phase, and rarely is the kid thing for a tiny kid that wears out. So there's likely someone in your community, someone in your church who could use that really nice stroller that you're not gonna use anymore, the baby bathtub. If you might have more kids, you can do alone. Like, you can have this. If we have another kid, we'll take it back and then it's out of your house and it blesses someone else. We don't need. We all don't need Our own individual baby bathtub. If there are two years between our kids and your kids. And so that's one of the things. But in terms of instilling the principles for our kids, what we're learning and research bears this out is our kids are so overseas scheduled and overstimulated and so hungry for breathing room in their lives to just play that we try to really foster and encourage that with our own kids. They each do one activity or one sport, and then they play.
- [16:34]
Jim Daly
I was gonna say, how did you back into that schedule then, to help your kids minimize being over committed?
- [16:41]
Courtney Ellis
Yeah. We look for sports that are Saturdays and not Sundays, which is tricky. Sunday sports can be really difficult because then you're choosing between sports and church, and then your kids resent church because it took me away and I didn't get to play in the game. So you can find those leagues. We have one that meets on Saturdays.
- [16:57]
Jim Daly
Yeah, we did the same.
- [16:58]
Courtney Ellis
Yeah. But to find something that clicks with your kid season by season and let them choose one thing at a time, and then have some afternoons where they're bored, don't schedule. Go to the park. Give them a box of hammer and nails and some wood. That's my middle kid.
- [17:13]
Jim Daly
And you need to emphasize that because being bored is not bad.
- [17:17]
Courtney Ellis
Being bored is the soil for creativity and innovation. And the tricky thing as a parent is the minute your kids are bored, they start to get into trouble and they start to fight. But what I tell parents is if you can wait that out for 10 or 15 minutes, it usually will disperse into genuine play. And if you can't wait it out, give them a chore and tell them on the other side of that chore, they can go back to playing. And guess what? They're excited to play on the other side of putting that laundry away.
- [17:43]
Jim Daly
No, it's so true. You know, Jean, again, she did a fantastic job with that. And she was really worried about. About television, so we cut the cable. We had no TV transmission for like eight years. Describe how you and Darrell are trying to find that balance between minimizing the stuff for your kids and making sure you're not being so miserly. They're not having a fun childhood. And there is that balance.
- [18:08]
Courtney Ellis
There is for sure. And I grew up with a family that didn't allow their kids Christmas presents because Christmas is about Jesus. And I thought, I don't think I would want to worship that Jesus because I really wanted to.
- [18:18]
Jim Daly
He's taking my choice. The sentiment of it, though, it's a little extreme.
- [18:22]
Courtney Ellis
I Absolutely understand and respect that decision. But as a kid, that felt terrible to me. So we want to walk that balance. What we tell relatives when they ask what they can get our children for for holidays, for gifts is we say experiences and consumables. So our youngest child loves art supplies. And the thing about markers is eventually you use them up, you won't have those same markers on your shelf 10 years from now. Cookie decorating kit, or take them to the science museum or things like this, and those don't end up sitting on your shelves. A few gift are great, A few toys are great. We are Lego Topia, after all. But to push toward those two things, and it frees up your shelves and it often gives kids a wonderful experience with a loved one.
- [19:04]
Jim Daly
I can't believe I'm about to say this, but the boys, you know, now that they're older, they were thinking, hey, we could cash in on these Legos. So they devised a plan. They put so many on a scale to see what it would weigh. Then they counted how many Legos they had. We were like in the 20,000 piece Lego arena. I mean, you don't know what these things go to anymore. They're all bought as a kit. But these are all the individual tiles. 20,000. I had to buy bins to fill them with Lego pieces right across the wall of the basement. I mean, that's not good.
- [19:39]
Courtney Ellis
I mean, but they're great if you can pass them on, right? Or if you can resell them.
- [19:43]
Jim Daly
I haven't done that part yet.
- [19:43]
John Fuller
They can have another life or have little kids.
- [19:45]
Jim Daly
We might be able to pay for college.
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Courtney Ellis
Give them to the church nursery. Not for the tiny babies they won't eat.
- [19:51]
Jim Daly
Investment. Your decluttering journey certainly led to a sweet story about your son Lincoln and an opportunity he had to give away some toys. And this goes back to that Christmas idea as well. What happened with Lincoln and him giving away some things that were kind of, you know, close to him. And how old was he?
- [20:10]
Courtney Ellis
He was about three. And the Matchbox cars were making more Matchbox cars in the middle of the night. And we realized they had kind of gotten out of control. And there was a new family that had moved into the neighborhood and a little boy who really liked Lincoln but didn't have any cars of his own. And they'd play together out on the sidewalk. And I said, lincoln, if you want to give some of these cars away to your new friend, I will give you one jelly bean for every car you put in the giveaway bag. And let's make sure they're the nice ones, not any ones that are broken or the paint is chipped. The nice ones, you don't have to, but if you do, you get a jelly bean per car. He put 42 cars, and he was buzzing like a hummingbird. He had had so much sugar, and I was like, my plan has backfired. But then we walked them over to the neighbor. I'd asked the mom's permission also. Please ask the parents permission. Don't just drop off your stuff you don't want anymore at someone's house. That is a burden that you're.
- [20:58]
Jim Daly
Yes, here's my stuff.
- [21:00]
Courtney Ellis
Right? Folks do that to us. We're like, no, thank you. But he knocked on the door and said, hey, I know you like some cars. Would you like some of my cars? And it bonded the two of them together. And it was an example of how to be generous and how to be kind. And he's never forgotten it. It was a long time ago.
- [21:16]
Jim Daly
Yeah, but what a great example for him. And you learn things at a young age that you tend to apply when you get older. So that's good. I think it's really good. You believe that worship is the ultimate uncluttered act. Connect the dots for me. How does that fit together?
- [21:33]
Courtney Ellis
When we worship God, we come before God with open hands. We come before God without our bag of stuff, without our busy schedule, and we say, here I am. And the beautiful thing about worship is it reorients our priorities. It reminds us that God is God and we are us. It reminds us of the mission that God has called us to. To love him, to love our neighbor and what that specifically looks like for us. Worship is everything.
- [21:59]
Jim Daly
It's everything that's good and having time to do it. So if we were to peel back the proverbial curtain on your home, now you've been at it. You've written a book about it. This is always the toughest question. How great a parent are you? But when you look at this uncluttered theme and you're seeing the fruit of all of you and your husband Darrell's labor, what does it look like now when you pull it back? Do you have the margin in time and schedule? Do you control the technology adequately? Is your house always tidy and in good shape always because you have so much time to clean?
- [22:38]
Courtney Ellis
Yes, that's my hobby.
- [22:39]
Jim Daly
I guess it's the perfection question. What are you aiming for? How's it worked for you? What does your home look like today?
- [22:46]
Courtney Ellis
Yeah, I love that question. Because all Writing is aspirational and we're all on a journey and different clutter comes in at different times. Different schedule clutter is a pressure at different times. I have a new book that just came out and there's a lot of schedule clutter that comes with launching a book that you have to say yes to more than you might normally. And so the call is ongoing. And that's a beautiful thing because that forces us to stay connected with God. If we had it all figured out and perfect, we could walk away and be like, I'm amazing. I have this figured out. But the fact is every day is a new day, and every day are new requests to put on the schedule. And every day is the temptation in the line at store to be like, maybe we do need another fill in the blank. So the call of God is ongoing. We have not arrived by any means. And within our house, the five of us each struggle with different pieces of it.
- [23:36]
Jim Daly
Oh, yeah.
- [23:36]
Courtney Ellis
Which is one of the reasons God calls us into a family, is so we can lean on each other's strengths.
- [23:41]
Jim Daly
Having talked about personality overlay on this, you know, extrovert, introvert, all those things play into clutter. So that's true for the last question here as we're wrapping up. I'm just thinking of particularly the mom and the wife who's moving through life. And it's a hectic pace, kind of right where you're at now with littles. They're not self contained. Nice behaving teenagers that do everything you want.
- [24:07]
Courtney Ellis
Can't wait for that.
- [24:08]
Jim Daly
Very excited, but it's a phase and all that. But describe how that process of decluttering has helped you notice God more. Maybe if I could break it down into your marriage, into your parenting, and then generally your home.
- [24:23]
Courtney Ellis
Yeah, it's given me new eyes to see my kids, to notice my kids. I realized how often I was looking at them on the other side of a phone. It's given our marriage new hope. I think. We now cultivate this family Sabbath. And the first few hours of that Sabbath, we're almost shaking with the anxiety of there's still so much to do. And by the end of that Sabbath, Darrell and I have reconnected. We remembered why we fell in love in the first place. For our church, for our family, for our neighborhood. We now have time for our neighbors, which we feel that that is, in a way, God's greatest call on us is to love our actual literal neighbors. We're pastors, we serve a church. You know, we have a lot of ministry time. But a lot of our neighbors don't know Jesus, but they know us. And there's a great opportunity there. But before we had no time. We're waving at the mailbox while we're running to the next very important church meeting. And those are very important, but they're not everything. So it's changed our lives and it continues to, in part because we try again and we do one of the things badly and we relearn and we keep growing. And that's the hope of the gospel.
- [25:31]
Jim Daly
Yeah. What I so appreciate about what you're saying, it's a framework.
- [25:34]
Courtney Ellis
Yes.
- [25:34]
Jim Daly
And it's a target. And you're not always going to hit the bullseye, but hopefully you're going to be around it often enough that it does change your life and it does give you the margin that you need to love the Lord better, love your spouse better, love your family better. That, at the end of the day, is what's going to matter. Right. And Courtney, again, this has been so good. Thanks for being with us the last couple of days and talking about this and sharing your deepest secrets of family and things that are working in your family. Thanks for being here.
- [26:03]
Courtney Ellis
Thank you for having me.
- [26:04]
Jim Daly
And let me turn to you, the listener, if this topic has touched a nerve for you, remember what Courtney shared there. It changed her marriage and it changed her attitude toward the Lord. That's pretty powerful. She has ears that are wide open and eyes that are open to see God moving. And she's experiencing a more shalom like peace in her life. And if you want that same thing, who doesn't? You need to get this wonderful book. Make a monthly pledge of any amount to the ministry to help us do ministry together, together, and we'll send it to you. That's our way of saying thank you for partnering with us. And here's the thing. When you give to Focus on the Family, you're doing ministry through us. A man named Thomas recently pointed that out when he said, one of the reasons I choose to make a substantial monthly donation to Focus on the Family is because I've always been a strong believer in tithing. I've been blessed financially and want to give back in a meaningful way. It's rare to find an organization that's stewards its donations as well as Focus does. I've always believed in your mission, man. That feels good. That is, you know, that rewards the hard work. We want to be that and we strive to do that each and every day.
- [27:24]
John Fuller
Yeah, that's really quite an endorsement. And humbling reminder of God's work. And when we work together, God blesses the efforts in really amazing ways.
- [27:33]
Jim Daly
He really does. And so this is your invitation to do ministry through Focus on the Family with a monthly pledge or one time gift, whatever you can afford. Let's strengthen more marriages, equip more parents, rescue more babies and introduce people to Jesus. That's what happens when you support the ministry.
- [27:53]
John Fuller
And Our number is 800-232-6459, 800, the letter A in the Word Family. You can also donate and get a copy of Uncluttered at our website and the link is in the show Notes. And coming up tomorrow, we'll share a powerful story of how one couple lived out their pro life beliefs despite having an adverse pregnancy diagnosis.
- [28:18]
Jim Daly
So whether we are struggling with the.
- [28:21]
Courtney Ellis
Suffering itself or we struggling with a wrong decision, we can all come to the cross. And we can bear that at the cross, knowing that Christ empathizes. He knows and the cross shows us that he cares.
- [28:35]
John Fuller
Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [28:51]
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