← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:01]
Jim Daly
God is at work and he's calling his people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from FOCUS on the Family and the Colson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth. Watch Truth Rising starting September 5th and find out how you can be a part of the change and become an agent of restoration. Sign up@truthrising.com that's truthrising.com.
- [00:32]
Dr. John Townsend
Proverbs chapter 4, verse 23 Guard your heart, for from it flow the wellsprings of life. If I don't take care of my heart, which is my emotions and my values and my schedule and all that, then I'm not going to be able to give it to anybody else.
- [00:46]
John Fuller
That's Dr. John Townsend and he's our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. He'll be offering some tools to help us invest in others and also to allow others to speak into our lives. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller.
- [01:00]
Jim Daly
You know, John, I think everyone wants to live a healthy life, but they don't always know how to get there. And there's always these attributes that they manifest that are very unhealthy and it prevents them from living that very healthy life that they want to have and especially healthy relationships. Our good friend Dr. John Townsend has thought a lot about this and has some wonderful ideas on how to do that, how to strengthen yourself, get yourself in a healthy position and then be that cup of cold water to the relationships around you, which is what Jesus is really calling us to do. And he's going to offer some great practical wisdom on how to do that. I think you want to kick back, get a cup of coffee, cup of tea and sit in and listen to this one.
- [01:45]
John Fuller
Yeah. You're going to find balance and encouragement for your daily life from Dr. Townsend. He's a nationally known leadership consultant, psychologist, a best selling author and is the founder of the Townsend Institute for Leadership and Counseling. We'll have details in the show notes. And his book that forms the basis for our conversation today is called People Fill youl Tank for Life, Love and Leadership. And we've got copies of that here. The link is in the show notes.
- [02:12]
Jim Daly
John, welcome back to focus.
- [02:13]
Dr. John Townsend
Glad to be here, guys.
- [02:15]
Jim Daly
The title People Fuel is great. Now Gene and I just to give you an idea, I mean, I'm more the extrovert, she's more the introvert. And we talk about how we either are fueled in a group or defueled, if I could say it that way.
- [02:29]
Dr. John Townsend
Yeah. Some people say gains are drained.
- [02:30]
Jim Daly
Right. And that's true. But you know, one thing, it's so interesting to me, I think, and maybe it's just part of being married and I don't even know if this is clinically accurate, but I think over the years I've adopted a bit of her need to back up a little bit. I used to in my 20s and 30s, it was all outbound, you know, I just loved being in a group and it was party time and crazy and fun and the more parties the better. Right. And then I realized I need time to back up because I'm really empty. Is that kind of normal?
- [02:57]
Dr. John Townsend
It's very normal. They found out, in fact, that the extrovert needs cave time. Not as much as the introvert, but everybody needs that cave time.
- [03:05]
Jim Daly
So. And the idea there though, for her, for the introvert, is you do need people time too, is that that was.
- [03:11]
Dr. John Townsend
The other thing that God made us to need. Both sort of the reflective time to say, how's life going? Get my energy back. But I also need that good stuff that comes from the right relationships.
- [03:21]
Jim Daly
And you also say in the book, which is fantastic, people fuel that we have set needs. I think we. You know what I love about this? Let's get this right out of the way. The idea of amalgamating Christianity with psychology. I think it's a fact that as you as a Christian are identifying patterns that God has set in us as human beings. I think it's one of the most comfortable blends of science and faith in the disciplines of science. Do you agree?
- [03:48]
Dr. John Townsend
No question about it. In fact, most of what I study now, Jim, is neuroscience. And that's because every robust study that comes out about resilience or relationship or success or career, every well done study basically says one thing, the Bible has it all, that thousands of years ago God said those things. And you can find Bible passages. It's a little bit like there's this tapestry in your home that says principles of love, principles of success, principles of child rising. And. And then finally, because of neuroscience, the author's name, God is on the bottom of that tapestry. The hard science now says he had it right all the way.
- [04:25]
Jim Daly
And it shouldn't surprise us as Christians, that's the funny thing that we seem like, wow, that's amazing. But science should align itself with scripture, especially in the area of human behavior. So with that understanding, you say there are two sets of needs, functional and relational, but that relational needs are often not met. So go ahead and describe those two and speak more about unmet relations.
- [04:49]
Dr. John Townsend
Yeah. So the functional needs, briefly, are that we all need to work. We need to do tasks, be responsible, hold our finances together, all the structured, kind of scheduled things we do. But the relational needs are, like, what? We need to know that we're loved. We know that we're accepted, that there's wisdom around us, that we can get truth. And the problem is, a lot of us were trained to think, okay, I'm supposed to give all those things to other people, but I'm supposed to only get them from three sources. Just from the Lord or my spouse or. Or my Labrador retriever, Max, because he licks me, because he unconditionally cares about me. So I just go that way, and it's great. We need the Lord and the Holy Spirit in the Bible, and we need our spouse, and we need Max. But the Bible says, oh, so much more about other people that we need grace and nutrients from. I got the whole concept from the world of bionutrients. You know, we're all into getting healthy and taking supplements and eating right these days, but we kind of never do. And I started thinking, okay, there's bionutrients, like calcium and like iron that we need to stay healthy. I thought, there's also relational nutrients. There's the way that we get those and we give those to each other not from a pill or a supplement, but from a conversation, a text, a warm lunch or whatever, where we find out that we can get the acceptance we need from others. The wisdom, the encouragement, the truth, the challenge. So the concept of relational nutrients is, are we getting the ones we need from each other? 1st Peter 4:10 says that we are the stewards of God's manifestation. God just basically said, I'm giving my grace to people through people. Am I getting that from people? And am I providing that for my family and my friends?
- [06:32]
Jim Daly
Right.
- [06:32]
Dr. John Townsend
But to say I'm struggling my work or my marriage or my physical health, vulnerability brings those nutrients. But it's a little scary for us. But if we can pull that off with safe people, the flow of nutrients works, and we go away feeling like, I'm ready to take the day.
- [06:48]
Jim Daly
And that's what I appreciate about the, you know, the gentle nudging you're giving us here to kind of get out of the comfort zone, kind of the cave as you described it, and get to know the cave next door, Right? Yes. In that way, you have four quadrants of relational nutrients. Describe what those four quadrants are and how each of them relate to us.
- [07:07]
Dr. John Townsend
Yeah, they're all Just kind of different categories of how we supply each other with the right fuel and get supplied. The first one, which is called be present, the first quadrant was be present. That means basically, it means to be with somebody and be present emotionally and shut up. You know, in Job chapter two, it says that his friends sat with him seven days and seven nights and did not speak a word to him, for they saw his grief was very great. Only good thing they did in 42 chapters, right? And so sometimes you just got to be with somebody and comfort them and say, I'm here. I want to get in the well with you. I want to support you. Number two is provide the good. You know, we all need people to kind of be a little dopamine hit for each other. We encourage each other. We say, I believe in you, and you're struggling in your job or your health or with. Or your finances or your spiritual life. I believe in you, I'm on your side. I respect you, and people just need that little pop of, you just gave me an endorphin. And literally, that's what the neuroscience says. We give each other endorphins, and we feel better when someone encourages us. So you've got to provide the positive good for people. So there's being present, and there's providing the good.
- [08:13]
Jim Daly
That's good. What are the other two?
- [08:15]
Dr. John Townsend
The third one is provide reality. Because sometimes we need what I call a Gandalf. You know, in Lord of the Rings, the guy with the wizard and he has these cryptic statements, and you go, oh, my gosh. And the person that can go deeper and say, why is that? Or here's another perspective. Give you honest feedback, give you insight, wisdom. You've got to get that from the right people. So that provides so much when people go, oh, now I see things. You gave me clarity. It's the wisdom aspect.
- [08:40]
Jim Daly
And what's the fourth one?
- [08:41]
Dr. John Townsend
Well, the fourth one is sort of like, now let's get our butts out of the seats and do something. It's the action step. It's like, what's the action you're gonna take? Because we can have all the presents we want, all the good love we want, all the wisdom we want, but you gotta make behavior. And so what's your next challenge? What's your homework assignment? Is there a course you need? You need to have that conversation. That's what action is. And so we're all the time giving and receiving those four, depending on what you need at a different time to each other.
- [09:06]
Jim Daly
It's so good. And that's all contained in the book People Fuel. And John's going to give some details about that in a minute. Let me also ask you, and this is one that again I think I have often tried to figure out, where is this line? People think it's selfish to think of your own needs, but you say it's crucial to maintain health and well being. But where is that line, especially for the Christian, to be mindful of your own needs? Because that feels at times selfish. It does that we would put ourselves first. But sometimes you need to describe when that is appropriate, when it's spiritually right and when it's wrong.
- [09:45]
Dr. John Townsend
Yeah, I always go back to the Bible on that because we've missed so many verses. For example, Proverbs 4, 23. Guard your heart for from it flow the wellsprings of life. If I don't take care of my heart, which is my emotions and my values and my schedule and all that, then I'm not going to be able to give it to anybody else. And then Paul says in Philippians, look not only to your own interests, but those of others. Not only to your own, but of others. So it's always been in the Bible, but I think sometimes we've missed that and said, well, any sign of self care is selfish and it can be, but if you're taking care of yourself and, and you're a healthy person, you're going to want to give to the kingdom and to others.
- [10:22]
Jim Daly
Right. And I think in that context, again, this is just a personal example that hopefully encourages couples like Jean and I. I think it took us time in our marriage to figure that out, that I enjoyed going for a workout or doing something. And at first I think she felt, wow, okay, what about time for us?
- [10:42]
Dr. John Townsend
Yeah. Are you kind of leaving us?
- [10:43]
Jim Daly
Yeah. And you know, of course then kids arrive and then where are you, I need you. And we get all that. But she is ins such a good place with that now, you know, for herself taking a walk and doing those things that she needs to do and doing them and not feeling guilty about it and then, you know, letting me go work out and do some of those things that I need to recharge. Why does it, first of all, why does it take us time in our marriages to work that out for each other?
- [11:08]
Dr. John Townsend
Well, it does because in the early parts you have this kind of honeymoon period where I just can't get enough of being together with you. And it's a good thing because that glues us together to get ready for the fact that wait A minute you're not perfect and I'm not. Maybe in these in space. But then once the honeymoon's over and you've got I know you and you know me, all of a sudden we know I need some space because space creates longing. There's a great song that says, it's a country song. It says, how can I miss you if you don't go away? So your walks and her walks make you go, hey, I missed you and you get back together.
- [11:41]
Jim Daly
It sounds like an introvert speaking pretty much.
- [11:45]
John Fuller
Please go away so I can miss you. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Our guest today, Dr. John Townsend. His book people Fuel is really a great treatment of this topic and we'll encourage you to get a copy today. Click the link in the show notes or call 800-THE LETTER A in the word family.
- [12:06]
Jim Daly
John, what I love about all of your books, they're so practical and you give such pithy, direct guidance on what to do. And another area in your book, People Fuel, you mentioned the seven C's. We're not going to take time to cover all seven. Let me just two of them. Coaches and comrades. What are you getting at with people seeking out coaches and comrades? And if you want to mention another couple, that's fine, too.
- [12:31]
Dr. John Townsend
Yeah. The whole concept of seven Cs, Jim, is that we've got to take responsibility for who we spend our time with because there's some people, like we said earlier, there's some people that they're nice people, but God bless them, they're drains. And there's some people that are gains and give us rich nutrients so we can function, have great energy, great creativity and focus. Well, you've got to build up those top groups, the coaches and comrades, so that you can help the others. So the coaches category is basically someone who knows something you don't know. It could be working out. It could be music, it could be business, it could be spiritual director. Not only do they know something, they call it subject matter expert, expert SME, but they also have. They're trained in coaching. You know, you can have somebody who knows something, but if they don't have to train to teach and know how to provide for the obstacles and the strategy, it's not going to go well. So they're trained to teach it. But the third one is my favorite. The third criterion is they have no personal need for you. Now, I'll tell you why this is great, because either they're pro bono because they made whatever they made and they're just Doing it. Or you pay them. And coaching pays now at about three times what you pay for it. That's what the Harvard says.
- [13:42]
John Fuller
Say that one more time.
- [13:43]
Dr. John Townsend
Coaching pays about three times as much. Whatever you pay for it pays back. The return is really significant. Incredible. But the reason is good that you have no need of it. Then you don't have to spend in your little one hour zoom with them half the time asking them, how was your vacation, how are your kids, how is your granny? I have tons of coaches because I have a lot of needs. So. And when I, when I call my coach, I just say hi, and he says hi, and then it's all about me. And so it's not 30 minutes of their life. And you can be kind of healthily selfish because it's dedicated to your betterment. That's the thing that makes a coach great.
- [14:22]
Jim Daly
Yeah, that is good. And then the comrades, comrades, you know.
- [14:26]
Dr. John Townsend
I got that from the military, is like, you know, comrades in arms and all that. We all need what I call a life team. And a life team is anywhere between three and 10 people in your life and they have several characteristics. They know everything about you and they still love you and they want to push you to grow and they can be vulnerable with you. They know it all, they love you, they want you to see you grow and they want to be vulnerable with you. And so you walk through life with them. And I have a structure in the book about it where you meet either in a group or individually every week, two weeks, three weeks, and you get together and you commit to being honest and open about how life is really going and you care about each other and you maybe bring a Bible passage in or you pray for each other. But it's a way to say, I need these people in my life to give me the nutrients I need and I want to provide them for them. It becomes my growth team.
- [15:15]
Jim Daly
In that context, John, you look at again, culture today. I think just personally, Jean has a couple of Bible studies. She's involved and I would say there is where she's getting that men tend to be more loner oriented. You know, when you say three to ten guys be that close to me.
- [15:35]
Dr. John Townsend
They always go, well, how about two?
- [15:37]
Jim Daly
How about one? But you know what I mean? And I agree, it's so important. I do have three that I feel are really close in that way. But speak to that person that is struggling, especially that man who, you know, they're going, wow, I don't think I have anyone like that. What can they do?
- [15:54]
Dr. John Townsend
Yeah, I have a system in the book about that where basically, and I did this to myself because I wanted to eat my own cooking, is you go through Microsoft contacts, we've all got that Outlook, and there's somewhere between 500 and 5,000 names in there. And you just walk through it. If you can't think of anybody that knows you fully, loves you fully, wants to grow and be vulnerable. And sometimes in situations, especially if you're a guy, you'll take you about an hour to walk through it, and you'll go through, okay, him, maybe, maybe, ooh, that one's still in prison, maybe not. And then you make it done, and you go, oh, there's like 20 names here. And you call them one at a time and say, hey, I just want to catch up with you. How's life going? And you catch up and you have lunch or whatever. And here's the magic. You take a vulnerable risk, a little one. Stick your toe in the way. You don't say, my life is awful. You say, well, we're struggling with our teenager, or, my job's not what it should be, or marriage is kind of struggling. You take a small, vulnerable step, and they will tell you if they're the right person by 1 of 3 responses. Number one, they'll say, you're a Christian. Why are you doing having problems? Okay, nice person, not a comrade. Because they're judging you. Right. Number two, they'll say, you know, the weather around here is great, isn't it? I just love this weather. Well, they're saying, avoider. Avoid her. I can't go there. Okay, nice person, not a comrade. Third person will say, oh, you got a problem with your daughter? Okay, here's three books to read. Now. Here's the seventh Bible passages. Are you hugging your daughter? Are you having boundaries with your daughter? Do you know her friends? And they give you all. They're the advice monsters.
- [17:25]
Jim Daly
Yeah.
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Dr. John Townsend
And they're telling me, I want to. The great wisdom person for you, but I don't want to be open. The fourth person, this is the great one, will put down their fork and lean across physically and say, I had no idea about Sandra and your daughter. I love her. Tell me more about it. How did it feel? Can I pray for you? I mean, what's it like for you? What they're telling you is I can go there with you. And they're a good candidate for being a life team.
- [17:51]
Jim Daly
Boy, that's good. That's good. Okay, the first four of the Caesar, you know, pretty healthy.
- [17:57]
Dr. John Townsend
There's a Lot of identifiers. There's a lot of input for you.
- [18:00]
Jim Daly
The next three are more troubling. So go over those other three. And what are the core.
- [18:05]
Dr. John Townsend
Yeah, the fourth one is care. Because Jesus said the poor will always be with you. I mean, the people we need to care for people. I mean, that's kind of what focus in the family is about, is how do we care nationally, internationally, people all the way from people in developing countries that have nothing to somebody's homeless or going through sex trafficking or a friend who's in need or whatever. And we're called to do that. And so we have a responsibility to do that, to be on boards, do help to, you know, I'm always doing, kind of roll your sleeves up kind of ministry. And so the cool thing about that though is every time you finish doing a service project or whatever, and you're probably like this too, and I'll be flying home or driving home, I'll always say to myself, why am I not doing that more? I feel like transcendent. I feel like I'm with God. And that's because God puts a little endorphin in me every time I give as a self reinforcing system. To say, that felt good, didn't it, John? Do it again. It's how he keeps care going. Because we feel so at one with God after we do it. Yeah.
- [19:00]
Jim Daly
And then the chronic side.
- [19:01]
Dr. John Townsend
Well, the chronics. I'm originally from the south and we call the chronics the bless their heart folks.
- [19:09]
Jim Daly
Bless their heart. They're trying.
- [19:10]
John Fuller
It's not a term of endearment.
- [19:12]
Dr. John Townsend
No, it's a nice way to say, oh my gosh. Because the problem with them is they're not mean people. Certainly not. But they have problems that never go away. Money problems, relationship problems, self help problems, job problems. And the key to being a chronic is that they have what I call. And I'm not being, I'm being charitable here. They have what I call a flat learning curve. They experience pain and loss and all this. And you and I would go, what I pick up from that, I want to do that differently. And then go back and make the same mistake over again. The proverbs in the Bible would call them a foolish person. And most of us spend way too much time trying to help with chronic change. And if you've ever done that, spent mentoring time with somebody and had meetings with them and didn't go to your kids soccer games because they needed you so much, the key is to give them a homework assignment. I'm big on homework assignments. And they come back from the next meeting and say, well, did you do that thing about going to a Dave Ramsey course, or did you do that thing about spiritual development or about working out? And they'll go, no, I've been really busy. And you say, that's what I told you to get out of your pain from last week. And they are the ones you have to sometimes say, I can't spend as much time with them as I'd like to because they can totally drain you.
- [20:29]
Jim Daly
Yeah, and that's important. The last one is the most dangerous, the contaminate. Describe that person.
- [20:36]
Dr. John Townsend
Contaminant is a person who is a bad person. You know, I believe in a personal devil from the Bible. I believe he's a personality. And I believe that there are bad people. And you see in the Bible, there are people who just like the devil, they want to seek and destroy. And a person who is a contaminant really has a lot of envious feelings towards successful people. If you've got a family, they may want to tear your family apart. If you've got an organization or a church, they want to tear their apart because they're just bad people.
- [21:05]
Jim Daly
Give me the adjectives. So the person listening could identify. Oh, man, that's Aunt Sally.
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John Fuller
Yeah.
- [21:11]
Dr. John Townsend
Okay. Several things. One is they tend to be predatory. They use and exploit other people. Second, they never look at themselves, never about them. Thirdly, they seem to have kind of a strange joy in other people's pain, and they become actually kind of gossips to make that happen. They're just bad people. And they're not hurt people. They're bad people. And they're not a big percentage of the human race. But you got to watch out. And you can't have a lot of time with these people because they're just not. They're dark people until they get saved or whatever. And so what I tell people is just make sure that you tell them the truth, because we all deserve the truth. And you make sure you've got the resources around them and be confrontive. And if they change, spend more time with them. But don't sacrifice your family or your church or your business or your head with those people. I spend more time with chronics because God bless them, they need help. Contaminants protect your life.
- [22:10]
Jim Daly
Yeah, and that's good advice, John. I think for the last question here as we wrap up. And again, what great principles and people feel. Probably the area that we have the most conflict in, it could be marriage and kids. Especially adult kids. And that's one of the areas that we receive a lot of feedback from. But you have a wonderful story of conflict within a family, and I think it's a great illustration that many, many people will be able to take away. So what was the story and what did they learn, and what did you learn in that situation?
- [22:45]
Dr. John Townsend
Yeah, Jim, It's a family that I've always been really close to, and our family traveled with their family on vacations. Everybody had the chemistry. And one of the daughters came up and said, I'm really struggling. I don't. I'm graduating from college. I don't have a job. I've got financial issues. And my boyfriend and I broke up, and my heart's broken, and I don't even know if I believe in the Lord because I'm in a big college, and they don't believe. So I said, I've known you since birth. What can I do? This is awful. She said, you can fix my mother. And I said, how did we get from here to there? She said, well, I go to her with these problems, and my mother says, look, honey, you're smart, you're resilient, and you're going to be a winner, so feel better. And I said, does that help? She goes, no, I just avoid her. I said, how about dad? She says, dad and I talk all the time. I said, I'll talk to mom because mom was a dear friend of mine. And so I said, you, daughter is struggling, and she feels like you're not listening. She goes, look, you're a psychologist. I have this wisdom and encouragement that God gave me and these great action steps. So open her head up and. You're a shrink. Open her head up so I can put my nuggets of wisdom in and close the top. And that's what you guys do. And I said, that's kind of not what we do.
- [23:55]
Jim Daly
How nice to be caught in the middle here.
- [23:57]
Dr. John Townsend
Yikes. So she said, what do I do? And I said, I'll talk to your mom. So I talked to mom, and I said, look at it this way. Your daughter fell down a well. A well of no relationship, a well of being overwhelmed, no money, faith issues. And she's down in this well and she's struggling. And then you come and see her and where you, you know, the sun is shining and, you know, Spotify is playing a hillsong, and everything's good there and all this. And you look down and say, honey, you're strong and resilient. You're a winner. Come on up like Bob Barker, you know, the whole thing. And she just blows you off because you're not with her. Now, your husband, who's also a dear friend of mine, he sees Yah's daughter and he jumps into the well, 40ft down, he lands there with her. And he picks up his daughter, Yalls daughter, and he holds her and he says, it's dark here and it's overwhelming and it's scary and I'm with you as long as it takes, and we'll get out together. That's why she listens to him and not you. And the mother said, you're telling me to change my ways? I said, yeah. I mean, give grace before truth. Grace gives us the permission to give truth. If they don't feel like we're in the well of pain with us, they're not going to listen to us. So just be with her and be present. And then you've got great truth, but you're out of sequence. I went to John 1:14, where John says that Jesus came full of grace and truth. And in the syntax, the order in the Greek, it means grace and truth. It doesn't say truth and grace. That order is important. So she said, I'll try it. She tried it. I checked with them about six weeks later. The daughter said, mom and I talk all the time. And the mom said, I've learned it. I've learned how to listen before I do this. And here's the message for people when I'm giving this talk is most of us think right now when they're hearing this. I need to do that. I need to get in that well first and say, I'm with you. Tell me more about it. How does it feel before I give my truth? I got to be better about that. But that's not what I tell people to think. It's a great thought. Put that thought on the back burner. What we really need to be thinking now is seven words, and these are the hard ones. Who am I inviting to my well? Who am I inviting to my well? Because that's hard, that's vulnerable. But how can I give those things to others if I'm not asking for them too? So I challenge people to get somebody in your well and say, let me tell you how I'm really doing, John.
- [26:20]
Jim Daly
This is such good stuff and what a great resource people fuel. And I hope the listeners will respond. If you're in that spot and you're going, I don't have another person in my life that I can trust like that. Man, get John's book because it can really help you identify how to go about finding those people in your life who will be that great assist for you and the idea that God is calling us to that not to be isolated. We're built for a relationship and that's why he created us for himself and then for each other. And it's great. Let me also encourage you to make a gift of any amount to focus on the family, become a monthly supporter and we'll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for doing ministry with us. And if you can't afford it, it's one of those resources that we're going to trust others will cover the cost of doing ministry to you. And I'd like you to call us and ask for the book if you need it. We'll get it in your hands.
- [27:14]
Dr. John Townsend
Jim, can I say a word about that? I've been a donor to your ministry for many years and I've never regretted because of the grapefruit that comes from it with you guys bringing Jesus to people.
- [27:23]
Jim Daly
Well, it's very kind. And John, it's great to have you as part of that. I mean, you are at the t giving the advice and I so appreciate our partnership that way.
- [27:30]
John Fuller
Yeah. Well, donate as you can monthly or one time gift. And as Jim said, if you can't afford to give right now, we understand that. Regardless, request your copy of people fuel by Dr. John Townsend when you call 800 the letter A and the word family or click the link in the episode notes. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [28:06]
Dr. John Townsend
If the fights with your spouse have.
- [28:08]
Jim Daly
Become unbearable, if you feel like you can't take it anymore, there's still hope.
- [28:14]
Dr. John Townsend
Hope Restored Marriage Intensives have helped thousands.
- [28:17]
Jim Daly
Of couples like yours.
- [28:18]
Dr. John Townsend
Our biblically based counseling will help you find the root of your problems and face them together.
- [28:23]
Jim Daly
Call us at 1-866-875-2915. We'll talk with you, pray with you and help you find out which program will work best. That's 1-866-875-2915.