John Fuller (0:02)

Today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, best selling author and podcaster, Annie F. Downs is going to talk about the importance of pursuing joy.

Annie F. Downs (0:11)

What are the moments that make me feel the most alive? What are the moments of fun that I go like, oh, yeah, now this is it. Because those moments are giving you a taste of something God has for you in the long run.

John Fuller (0:22)

Thanks for joining us today. I'm John Fuller.

Jim Daly (0:24)

Well, Annie is a very joyful person and we're delighted to be able to share that joy with our listeners. Today sold over 1 million books.

John Fuller (0:34)

That's a lot.

Jim Daly (0:35)

That's a lot of books. And is the co founder of the that Sounds Fun podcast network. She splits her time between Nashville, Tennessee and New York City.

John Fuller (0:44)

And here's Annie F. Downs speaking to our staff just a few months ago on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Annie F. Downs (0:52)

The Bible talks a lot about joy, and Christians want to talk about joy. I am one of us. I'm also a Christian. But, but people want to talk about joy, but they don't want to talk about fun because fun is often considered sinful, right? Very often if you say, oh, they are a ton of fun. You're like, how much does he drink? Right? Or you're like, what are they really into? Oh, that person's so fun and you think they stay out late, they're kind of wild, whatever. I think we've, by labeling that, we've removed where fun and joy connect and we've taken fun away from the opportunity that redeemed. Fun is part of how God made us. And it isn't just for children. It's for us too. So there is this place where joy and fun and our faith all meet. Joy is the thing you feel. Joy is the emotion you experience, that it gets in you. Fun is the action that gets you there. So do you remember 2020? Sadly, me too. Know how everybody learned how to bake bread? If you make that bread and put it in a cold oven, nothing's gonna happen. But if you preheat that oven and put the bread in, it gets cooked, it gets baked, and then you have a loaf. So to me, joy is that loaf of bread. Fun is turning the oven on. There has to be some action when you are searching for joy. If life feels hard, if you are grieving, if suffering, if things feel really stressful, you have to take a step toward fun. If you want to find joy, it will be the oven that breaks your bread. Breaks, Bakes your bread, bakes your bread. Even when you don't quite Feel joyful yet. So when you go, man, we have not. We have not left in our family in a while. This has been a really hard season. And I would say instead of sitting there going, how do we find joy? You go, what do we think is fun? Could fun be the thing? Could that catalyst take us somewhere? There's this verse in Proverbs that I'm sure you have read before. Proverbs 14, 13. Even in laughter the heart may ache and rejoicing may end in grief. You've held both of those right. I think you probably have at some point in your life. I get to talk with Jim tomorrow on the podcast. Jim and my sister and I will sit and talk. My sister and I wrote a children's book together called Where Did TJ Go? That came out about a month ago because two years ago my sister and her husband had a baby, T.J. who only lived 56 days. He was diagnosed in the womb at 12 weeks with trisomy 18, which is a life limiting diagnosis. We knew for her entire pregnancy that the likelihood of my nephew living was really low. Through the kindness of God and medical intervention, he lived much longer than a lot of children with trisomy 18 live. And so he was three weeks in the NICU and my sister and brother in law were there. And I have another nephew at the time who is two. Now he's four. It's almost an idol. Jim, I have to tell you the truth, I like him so much. Little Sammy, he has red hair. You can't beat people with red hair. They're adorable when they're small. And so I'm not wrong. I am not wrong. So after three weeks in the nicu, they sent TJ back to my sister and brother in law's house and he was on hospice care for five weeks. And his last weekend, we knew he was getting closer and closer to dying. And we had cousins coming in town, like our age cousins who also had kids. And my parents were there and my other sister was there. We were all kind of gathering up that weekend and I was actually still in Nashville at the time. My friends, my family is in Atlanta. One of the nurses calls me and says, hey, you should be sure to come home this weekend because I think TJ probably will pass away this weekend. And at this point, I was FaceTiming them once or so a day, checking in and getting to talk to tj. And so that night before we were saying good night to go to bed, sorry, I was FaceTiming him. I said, TJ, you have got to stick around for the weekend. All the cousins are coming. We are having steak. Granddaddy's gonna do it. You're gonna love it. You are gonna have potatoes. All your cousins will be there. It'll be so loud. It'll be the loudest day of your life. You gotta stick around for the weekend. And he did. He lived till Wednesday, so he thought the party was just going to keep going. But on that Saturday, we lived even in laughter, the heart may ache because we sat around and watched the preschoolers play and run around and knock each other over and be silly. We laughed with our cousins and with our grandparents. And my dad read a letter to TJ about how proud he was of him and how much he was going to miss him. All that in the same day. We can hold joy and suffering at the same time. And so, because little Sammy did not know how to process losing his little brother is why my sister and I wrote Where Did TJ Go? Because we wanted a book about heaven when. When he was dying, I was calling counselors and all these people, being like, what's the book? Where's the, like, gospel book about this? And no one had a good answer. And I was like, well, I don't make casseroles. I know that shocks none of you. I don't make casseroles. I don't have time for that, but I can write a story. So we wrote a little story for Sammy, and now we've just gotten to share it with the world. But we were holding joy and suffering for the entirety of TJ's life. So I know that practice, just like you know that practice. And I'm sure you've seen the movie Inside Out. It's very theologically correct that when it tries to. Though, personally, as an Annie, I'm like, joy is great. Why does sadness have anything to say about anything? That's what I would choose. But then what you see in that film is holding both of them is actually what's true. You've probably heard fake it till you make it. You know, if you're feeling sad, just pretend to be happy and it'll catch up. And that's not the same thing. I'm inviting you to. I just want you to know I'm not telling you to fake having fun or fake being happy and see if your emotions will catch up. What I'm telling you is if you choose fun, joy is gonna follow. If you pursue fun, if you chase it a little bit, joy is going to follow. So real quick, I want to tell you why? If we choose fun, Joy is going to follow. Number one is fun. Really requires vulnerability. Really requires vulnerability. I promise you. You haven't been on a first date on a roller coaster, have you? Because what you do on a roller coaster is not something you want someone who you want to like you to see the screaming, the crying, the hands you don't want. Like, I'm trying to decide if we like each other. Let's ride this roller coaster together. It doesn't happen, because that kind of fun, in that moment, you lose a lot of control that you have. Like, you do right now where you're sitting. I have a couple of girlfriends that are on Broadway, and we were at an amusement park together, and they weren't allowed to yell because they're singers. And so they were like, we can't yell on this ride. And I am like, yeah. And they're going this. Cause that is all they were allowed to do. And I was like, this is the weirdest. I hate this. Behind me. The next ride, you must be in front of me. Cause I feel like I'm being chased by demons on this entire ride. Right? They don't want to do that on a first date. You know what else you probably haven't done on a first date? Is tried a new recipe. Come over, come eat at my house. Let me cook something I've never cooked before. No, it's vulnerable, right? It's really fun to try new recipes with people that you love and people that you know and people you're safe with. Cause it's vulnerable. Or maybe it's hiking a new trail around here where you go, like, yeah, I probably don't want to take my kids on the first time in case I get lost. But after that, fun requires some real vulnerability from us. And if you choose fun and allow yourself to be vulnerable, joy follows because you know that you're known and loved. And so this joy bubbles up when you are vulnerable with your friends, when you are having fun with your friends, when you're on roll. If y' all all went to an amusement park together, you would laugh so hard, and you'd think, I can't believe I just let them see me do that. Think, oh, I'm still loved. Oh, that's great. What a gift. I'm still loved. Do y' all know Dollywood? Not enough of you. Okay, great. You thought I was gonna be an evangelist for Jesus. Let me tell you about Dollywood. Listen, Dolly Parton owns an amusement park in Tennessee. You guys. It's very enjoyable. Every restaurant Is food that she actually, like, used to make or is a family recipe. The whole thing's adorable. The roller coasters are very fun. It's all very Southern and very, like, Appalachia. You'd love it. Okay, so they also. Oh, I need to tell you this. They have cinnamon bread that will change your actual spirit. It is. It's incomparable. To explain, it is the best thing you've ever eaten. They dip it when it is raw dough. They dip it in butter, and then they dip it in cinnamon sugar, and then they put it in a container to cook. That's it. They don't wipe it off. They leave. Exactly. Exactly. Whistle about it. So I am telling you, it's lovely. A couple of years ago, we did an event there because. Are you surprised? I was like, hey, if you want me to get up and talk, why don't we bring everybody to Dollywood? And it was 20, 21, so it was right when things were opening up again and a couple of thousand people came. And what I would notice, there was a time when people were kind of, like, waiting in line. They wanted me to sign books and that kind of stuff. And there's people that are talking to each other, and then there are a couple of people that are not talking to anyone. And as they're getting closer to me, I can overhear while I'm talking to other people, they start to introduce themselves to each other, right? So I want you to think. Remember, we're thinking about vulnerability and fun. And so here's what's happening is this woman had come by herself, flown in a plane by herself to Dollywood, and she's in line now with this other couple, this married couple, and they've become friends, and they're chatting it up. And then they get to me and we do the thing, and I said, okay, so what are y' all doing now? And the wife says, oh, I think she's just gonna come with us and we're gonna ride some rides. I thought, what a gift. What a gift to be that vulnerable that you're willing to, A, invite people in to be with you, and B, be willing to be invited into that. And I saw them later that day, and they were just, like, giggling, just giggling, walking around together. We have that opportunity to be vulnerable with each other in fun times, Right. Very often in faith spaces like we work in pretty full time, vulnerability can often look like sadness. And it's beautiful, and you're really telling your deep heart story. But there is something really revealing and good about vulnerability. And fun, because then you have permission to be vulnerable when it's hard, too, because you've already seen each other on a roller coaster. Fun also really invites connection. And you know this because you've had fun. You have memories where I said, what's the most fun thing you've ever done with people outside of your family? You go, oh, when we went to the rodeo. Oh, when we went to a Broncos game. Oh, when we. And you come up with a thing that you and your small group had done, or you and your neighborhood had done, or you and the swim team parents had done. Fun really invites connection. If you choose fun, it brings connection. And then joy follows because you know you're not alone. You're connected. Fun makes you feel connection, and that really matters. Cause there is such joy in not feeling alone in your pain or your worry or your sadness. I mean, one of my favorite scriptures is where in the psalms where it says the Lord sets the lonely in families. I have so many unmarried friends. I am this way, too, that have families that have invited us in for fun. And for. I mean, I'm staying with the family while I'm here in Colorado Springs. And we just, like, laughed forever the other night while we ate cheeseburgers and did high, low buffalo around the table. It was so fun. I was invited in and I was reminded that I'm not alone. I may not be married, but I'm not alone. What a gift. The vulnerability and the connection of that. And then finally, I'll tell you. Fun helps you remember. This is why you were really good at having fun as a kid. And it may not be as easy for you. So when I say, what's the most fun you had as a little. As a third grader? You know, just think about it for a second. What was the most fun you had as a third grader? You probably know. What's the hobby you used to love to do that you don't do anymore? What'd you do when you were. That little fun really helps you remember, and that's important. Look at this verse in Ecclesiastes. This is 3, verse 11. He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart. Yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. This is the secret. I don't tell everybody about fun, but I'll tell y' all. This is the thing about fun, that it's also why it's really important for us to know fun and pursue fun in the relationships with our friends who are Non believers is because when you are sitting there, okay, picture with me. Imagine June in Colorado and you're sitting outside at dinner with your family and your closest friends and the food is like perfect and the like twinkly lights are doing that thing, dee dee dee dee dee. And the weather's lovely and the sun is just setting and you're full, but you're not like that full. Unless that makes you feel great, then go for it. But you're having that moment and you think, I wish this wouldn't end. Eternity is set in your heart. The thing you are feeling when you say I wish this wouldn't end is a taste of what won't end. It is just this moment you have in the middle of fun when you think this, I wish this would go on forever. Someday that thing you feel will go on forever. Eternity is set in our hearts. And so when we are with our non believing friends, when we have fun with them and they say, I wish this would last forever. Your Jesus juke is. It can if you want it to. I actually can tell you about him and how this could last forever for you because what happens when we're actually sitting at that meal and we're outside and we've eaten just enough and the lights are perfect is that the friend across from you gets a text and one of their kids is throwing up and they gotta go and they get up and leave and then suddenly you think you hear thunder and when you rise, you hear thunder. You also realize that like all the linens on the table will be ruined if they get rained on. So you're like, everybody up, let's go get your plates. Go inside, find a place to sit. I don't care where, but help me get all of this inside. And it's over. That moment that you hoped would never end ends every time. I'm sorry to tell you, it ends every time. But fun helps you remember that we know there is more here than this. Okay, I'm very interested in this. Why do I. What are the moments that make me feel the most alive? What are the moments of fun that I go like, oh yeah, now this is it. Cause those moments are giving you a taste of something God has for you in the long run. And there are times when even those of us in our faith who are growing with the Lord are in such a sad and hard season that you need someone else to come in and help you remember. You say, hey, can we, can we do something fun this weekend? A lot of times what people worry about with fun Is that you're escaping your pain. Oh. If you're choosing to have fun, you're just running from your pain and your worry. Let me remind you about whales. You're welcome. Whales swim very deep in the ocean. They can go really deep, just like we can in our sadness and our emotions and our grief and loss. We can go really deep in the ocean. Whales do not survive if they do not come up for air. Whales have to constantly go down and come up and blow the air out of their blowhole. You gotta do that, too. You gotta have a break. You've gotta choose fun sometimes to help you remember what we're doing all this for. To help you remember that eternity is set in your hearts. To help you remember this is gonna last. You've got to have those moments now when you should get worried, is when you take the whale out of the ocean that's escaping. When you take the whale all the way out of the ocean, like, I can't be in water anymore. That's escapism. A whale coming up to breathe is just relief. You're allowed to have relief. How do we know the difference when we're choosing fun? How do we know the difference between relief and escape? If you go see one movie this weekend, relief. If you go to the movie theater and stay there all day Saturday, I'm a little concerned. Right? So you can start seeing in your own life. Okay, I'm chasing after fun. But this is leaning toward escapism. This isn't just remembering. This isn't just connectivity. This isn't just vulnerability. This is me trying to get away from the pain. It is when you finish a sentence with, I think I just did that too much. I think I just ate, drank, was on Instagram, was on Facebook, sent a message, went somewhere. I think I just did that too much. You probably took the whale out of the ocean. Just put him back in. Put them back in. If you choose fun, it's gonna remind you of something really deep inside of you. And joy is gonna follow because you know that that feeling you're feeling, that moment, the thing you're longing for, is actually gonna come someday. That's it. Please, next time you're just having fun with your friends or family, Even if it's just. If it's tonight at dinner, around the table and y' all are laughing, just have this moment where you go, oh, this is what forever's gonna be like. Oh, right. This is what we're pointing towards. This is why we wanna take a bus to heaven, not a Motorcycle. Like, we want to bring everyone with us because I don't want anyone to miss this. It happens when you're having fun. Why does all this matter? You probably think I'm gonna say, because the world needs it. Like, people need to see you having fun because the world needs it. We're in a tough time on the planet, and we need. And it's because you're the light of the world. And all that is true. That is not, not true. But you know why I really think this matters? Is because you need joy. Joy is, like, very important for us surviving. We have what they don't have. Our joy is not natural. It's supernatural. And our neighbors don't get it. They don't understand how we're okay, how we're still joyful. We have what they don't have. And so if you stop pursuing it, if you stop choosing joy, if you stop chasing fun, that will open the door to joy. You miss out. I'm sure you have said this in your life. I've said this in my life. When I've gone. I mean, I thought this. When TJ died, I thought, how do people without God do this? How do they do this? When I'm in New York and I'm walking around going, how are y' all doing this? Aren't you in pain? Aren't you worried? Who do you talk to when you lay down at night? Who relieves you of any of this? Who's the reason behind what you do? Like, how do y' all do this? I almost wanna, like, start a new podcast. Like, how do non Christians do it? How do you do it? I couldn't do it if we didn't have this joy that was deeper. And I know you've heard this before, and Scripture talks about, like, joy isn't surface level. It isn't just being happy. It's a fruit of the spirit, right? It's part of the gig. It's what we get when we sign up for this thing. But it is hard to access. And fun is going to be one of the ways you can do that. It's a tool that increases your joy. It increases your hobbies. It happens in your hobbies. It happens when you rest. It is so much more important than we think it is. And I'll like, money back guarantee. Try it this weekend and see if fun doesn't help. And I'll give you one tip. I tell people a lot. You know what you could do that would be so fun this weekend is if you went to three Mexican restaurants and judged their guacamole against each other. Make a rubric, figure out is it chunky or smooth? Did it have enough of this? Of this? Take your family and just order guacamole, Pay tip well and leave and go to the next one. Your kids will laugh so hard. If you just eat guacamole on Saturday, It'll cost you $25, maybe $30. You can go to three to four restaurants and in the end you've got a scorecard of your city's guacamole. And your kids will tell their friends at school on Monday they did a guacamole. Thon it's not hard. Fun is important in our faith lives because of the vulnerability, the connection and the power of remembering and knowing what we don't know. It can be small and daily. It doesn't have to be big and expensive, but it is very important. And you can just like try and see if you agree. Just try it.