← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
Parenting Adult Children When They Walk Away from God (Part 2 of 2)
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- [00:00]
Jim Daly
Ken spends a lot of time away from home working on the pipeline in Alaska, and our podcast has become his lifeline.
- [00:08]
Ken's Spouse
Focus on the Family has helped my marriage by leaps and bounds. You give us so much meat and potatoes to think about. Like, don't focus on yourself. Put yourself in your spouse's shoes. What are they going through down there?
- [00:22]
Jim Daly
Ken finds our content so helpful, he's eager to share it with others.
- [00:27]
Ken's Spouse
It can hit home. Hey, I'm going through that same thing. That's why I enjoy listening. So I spread that to other co workers who might not know Christ, who might be having a bad day. You get to know them, say, hey, by the way, listen to this Focus on the Family podcast.
- [00:44]
Jim Daly
I'm Jim Daly. Right now we need your help to deliver hope and joy to marriages like Ken's. When you give before December 31st, your gift will be doubled. Donate@focusonthefamily.com family or call 800 AFAMILY.
- [01:00]
Mary DeMuth
This program is sponsored by Focus on the Family, helping families thrive in Christ.
- [01:05]
Jim Daly
For more than 40 years.
- [01:16]
Mary DeMuth
It just communicated to me that she loved me, she saw me, she knew what my interests were and she sought to brighten my day. And that has translated to me as a parent of looking at those adult kids and thinking, how can I be like that to them?
- [01:33]
John Fuller
Well, that's Mary DeMuth and she's back with us to offer hope and help for parents of wayward adult children. Thanks for joining us for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller.
- [01:44]
Jim Daly
I so appreciated the insights that Mary offered last time as a mom of three adult children as she shared some compelling stories. If you didn't hear the program, I'd encourage you to go back at the smartphone app and you could listen whenever you want or go to the website and listen. But it had so much dense good ideas for parents of adult children. We're going to continue that today. Sadly, two of her three children did walk away from the faith and yet she continues to reach out to them in the love of Christ. You might be right in that same spot. It's not uncommon. And those of us parents of 20 somethings, maybe even 30 somethings, probably are crying many nights to pray for our kids and plead with the Lord to draw them back into faith with him. And we're going to give you some good suggestions on how to continue to parent a wayward child.
- [02:45]
John Fuller
Yeah, Mary DeMuth has a podcast called Pray Every Day. She's a popular author and speaker and she's written a book and we covered Some of the content last time and more today. It's called Love Pray, Parenting your wayward adult kids with Joy. And I really encourage you to pick up a copy of the book. You can find the link to that in the show notes.
- [03:09]
Jim Daly
Mary, welcome back for a second day of discussion. I so appreciate this.
- [03:13]
Mary DeMuth
It's been fun, hasn't it? And hard.
- [03:15]
Jim Daly
But good fun and hard. I mean, again, I said last time, you know, so many parents that contact us have here at Focus on the Family are in this space, and it shows you how common a problem it is. And I'm sure they, for the most part, did a really good job concentrating on spiritual development. And the kids probably went to Awana and they asked all the right questions and they prayed together at night. And then the teen years started to rumble in. More influence from outside. And mom and dad talk about some of the concerns it might be drinking, could be drugs, and. And then, boom, they go off to college. And sometimes that explosion occurs. Let me start there with that moment, because it's so critical of a time in your parenting. You may have sheltered your kids in that way, may have put them in Christian school, I don't know, maybe homeschooled. And then they go off to a university, maybe a secular university. And they didn't know Friday night was party night. And boom, it's off to the races. And it seems like something has been uncorked in them, something the parents never saw. This behavior that is so outside of what they had hoped for. What do you do with those immediate emotions when you find out, okay, this is what's going on? How do you respond with an adult child in that context versus a teenager?
- [04:42]
Mary DeMuth
Yeah. So when they're under your roof, you do have a little bit more say in their behavior. You can give them a curfew. You can say, if you do this, this will be the consequence.
- [04:52]
Jim Daly
Yeah, restrict rights.
- [04:53]
Mary DeMuth
Right, Exactly. All those things. But once they're far away in another environment, it's very hard. And that's where I get back, to give advice when it's asked. Not unsolicited advice, if you can. It's hard. You have to bite your tongue a lot.
- [05:11]
Jim Daly
What's your report card on that? What I mean on that is I love that advice, but are you an A student when it comes to that or a b?
- [05:18]
Mary DeMuth
I'm a C plus.
- [05:19]
Jim Daly
I mean, six out of 10, seven out of. Of 10 isn't bad. But that's so hard for us because we're in that modality for so long to correct to give input, to encourage. And then we do it, you know, we do it at 23 and they're going really?
- [05:35]
Mary DeMuth
Because it's like a divorce in a way because you've played this role for 18 years and it doesn't just snap in half in a moment when a birthday rolls around or they go to college or they go off on their own. It doesn't do that. It's a cultivation. That's where I'm talking about just our relationship with the Lord of giving him. The grief of my child is making these decisions. I'm going to get on my knees about it. I'm going to even talk to my friends about it in a non gossipy way. But just to shoulder the burden with other people so that I don't go crazy. Those are normal things that we have to do. And also to have accountability to say, hey, I don't want to be heavy handed to my 27 year old, please help me. Having community is really helpful there.
- [06:19]
Jim Daly
Yeah. What should healthy involvement look like with our 20 something?
- [06:25]
Mary DeMuth
I think we have to let them lead that. And some are on a process of they just need to separate in order to kind of get their heads on straight and we have to respect their boundaries. Now the line may be if they're hurting others and hurting themselves, that's a line that you may need to intervene in as someone who loves them. And so that's hard to know. But that's kind of the line that I've kind of developed. But I think it is our tendency is to want to re parent and it's really hard to overcome that. Like that unction that we have.
- [07:07]
Jim Daly
Oh, so true. How do we navigate the financial side of things, the gifts? I will admit I probably lean toward overdoing that.
- [07:18]
Mary DeMuth
Are you a softie?
- [07:19]
Jim Daly
I am the softie. Gene would say yes, you're the softie. So you know, it's probably because of my background of not having and I don't want my kids to not have so I can overindulge in that way. But how do we create the right balance? What is the right balance? I mean, let's start with that question.
- [07:41]
Mary DeMuth
Yeah, that's really hard. I mean there's times I do remember when all of our kids were done with college and we were done paying for it. We kind of had a little party because we got a huge pay raise and suddenly we were like making ends meet and all of that. Cause we weren't paying for our K and their insurance and all that, their phones. So we now have More means than we did before. And that is the question that we're asking ourselves. So what we try to do is, when we're benevolent, we try not to have it be predictable benevolence, but just to bless them in surprising ways. And that comes from listening to their lives. And when things are hard for them, but without having some sort of prescribed way, we'll just send them a check or venmo them something. And that way it's unpredictable. And it's not like, oh, I expect my mom and dad to always bail me out.
- [08:34]
Jim Daly
I like that there is. I mean, this is so much a life, isn't it, Mary? I mean, on the one end, you're so tight, it's ridiculous, right? I mean, they're only in their twenties, and occasionally they might need a little help or a little blessing, right? You don't have to be so tight that all they know is, yeah, don't ask mom or dad or on the other side so much that you're really stunting their ability to launch. And it's that balance, and that's wisdom, being able to know when to do the right thing. But I like that idea of unpredictable. I think that's really good.
- [09:07]
Mary DeMuth
And they're so excited when it happens because they don't know that it's gonna happen. And they just kind of love us more. So it's kind of, we bought our kids. But, no, it's just, I guess for me and in talking, you know, responding to your childhood, I think all of us are responding to our childhood in some way, aren't we? And when we were in our 20s and we were parents and we had our. Both of our parents, we had severe economic trials. And we did not ask our parents because we didn't feel like we could. And we knew maybe the little tiny steps that we made toward asking them were so shut down that we just had to suffer. And we don't want that for our kids because we were abandoned in a way, and there was no safety net at all. Our safety net, thankfully, was the body of Christ. Those were the people that came in and bought our washing machine when our washing machine broke. And we had no means to do it. And so that's kind of our response.
- [10:05]
Jim Daly
It's a good lesson.
- [10:06]
John Fuller
So in the context of wayward children, Mary, how do we do that? Because I might have a wayward child who doesn't want to bother me or doesn't feel like they can approach me. Maybe I've put off a vibe of I'm not safe or you should just do this. They're not connected to a church. How do we navigate that? Where? I'm pretty sure they're not going to church. So who's stepping in? Oh, there's an element of letting go there. It's hard.
- [10:31]
Mary DeMuth
It is. And that's, again, where we have to go back to the Lord and ask for wisdom. Is, would this be a benefit to them? Like, maybe I'm funding their drug lifestyle, so you wouldn't want to do that. But maybe this would be part reconciliation for me to help them without them asking. I don't know. And like I said, every child is different. One that would be emboldening them in their sin, and another it would be blessing them. So whether they're walking with the Lord or not, we still need to be listening to their lives. We still need to be attuned and pay attention because we. I think parenting in the adult years is so exciting because I will hear something from one of my daughters and I'll be like, oh, my gosh, really need this item that, you know, maybe it's $25, but they can't afford it, and I'm just gonna send it to them from Amazon. And they're so shocked and surprised. And it builds relationship. I love that boy.
- [11:27]
Jim Daly
That's so good. That's a great place to focus on, is the building of the relationship. And you had a grandmother that did communicate love to you. You know, last time we talked a lot about your broken family origin story and difficult relationship with your mom, who married many times and all that. But your grandma seemed to be like a steady beacon for you. How did she communicate love to you?
- [11:50]
Mary DeMuth
Well, that was one of those examples, I think, that carried over into my adulthood with my adult kids. She would, like, clip. She knew that I liked decorating and art and all of that kind of stuff. So she would cut things out of old magazines. And even though I even got that magazine, she would send them to me in the mail, you know, in the days of mail. And it just communicated to me that she loved me. She saw me, she knew what my interests were, and she sought to brighten my day. And that has translated to me, as a parent, of looking at those adult kids and thinking, how can I be like that to them? And that was very informative. I felt so very loved when that happened.
- [12:30]
Jim Daly
You know, Mary, there's gotta be parents who are in this spot, and I hope you're tuning in or maybe somebody's encouraged you to listen. And I hope you're encouraged in that way, even prayer for some of these adult children gets wearying. You know, you've been praying for years, there's no change or it's gotten worse. How do you stay motivated to keep trusting the Lord? And every night, three times a week, whatever it ends up being, you're saying, lord, it's the same prayer. Can you move that child closer to you? Can you grab them by the shirt collar and drag them towards you? I mean, you say it the same way differently, but how do you keep the stamina, spiritually, emotionally, to stay engaged and not give up?
- [13:20]
Mary DeMuth
That's a really good question. And I think that's where we get back to a strong theological understanding of prayer and a very strong understanding of the sovereignty of God. And what we see is the lack of swiftness of God. When I talked with you yesterday, I gave a story of my mom and 40 plus years of prayer. And I will tell you that there were many times where I thought, this is not doing anything, forgetting that on the, you know, the Lord's seeing it as a resolved problem. I'm seeing it down here as an unresolved problem. And we have too small of a scope. And we try to demand that the Lord answer our prayer for our adult child in a minute, in 10 days, in four months. And we're not seeing the wide picture. It took the Lord 45, five years to answer this long term prayer that I felt was an impossible prayer. I did not think it would ever be answered and I had to resolve myself that it never would be. So we have to have a long view of prayer and realize persevere through it. It matters. God's timing is not the same as ours and we don't get to dictate to the Lord the timing in which he answers our prayers.
- [14:33]
Jim Daly
And even your response to that hearing, it will indicate what you need to do because some people are going to go, oh, she doesn't understand. That's a response of Lord, you're not working fast enough.
- [14:46]
John Fuller
Some good insights today on Focus on the Family for all of us parents, really, at whatever stage we're at in the journey. Mary Demuth is our guest on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and she's written a terrific resource, Love Pray, parenting your wayward adult kids with joy. And we'll encourage you to get a copy of it from us here at the ministry. The link is in the show notes.
- [15:10]
Jim Daly
Mary, you've written about Psalms of Lament. You know, I think of reading the psalms. I get a lot from reading from them. They comfort me I haven't thought about applying that to parenting grief. Describe that. Parenting grief, the declaration of faith, the petition. Just run us through that process to help us.
- [15:32]
Mary DeMuth
One of the joys of my life is teaching through the lament Psalms. And a lament Psalm is a psalm. There's many of them in the book of Psalms that begins with a complaint and ends with praise. And there's so many of them. And you can look them up and do a little Google search on what's a lament Psalm, and you can read them. But what I train people to do is writing your own. And it begins with honesty. And I encourage parents to say, lord, this is what I expected. This is what I wanted. Why aren't you there? Why aren't you rescuing my child? Why are they wayward? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? And then after that, the psalmist goes into these declarations of, But I believe. I believe that you are hearing me. I believe you own a cattle on a thousand hills. I believe this, I believe that. And I'm going to choose to praise you even before the answer is given. And I've taken parents through this, and it is. There's usually not one dry eye in the house because they are able, at least on paper, they're not having to share it with their peers. They can say, I am disappointed, God, this didn't happen the way I wanted it to. And I'm just so grateful for that model in the Psalms of teaching us how to work through our pain, through a very simple process like that now.
- [16:46]
Jim Daly
And that's so good and so healthy to be able to do something like that. A touchy subject. You know, LGBT issues are all around now, public schools. It seems like they're just flooded with this idea. Even elementary schools in some states, because of education decisions to allow them to, you know, think about these things. And I think some of these victories in that space are like drops of water on a desert journey. I mean, it's just small, little incremental gains that you might have. You had a couple, Ronnie and Daniela, that went through something like this. Describe it.
- [17:27]
Mary DeMuth
Yeah, they definitely walked through this. And they had to work through this idea of, what are we going. How are we going to act? How are we going to love? How are we going to come alongside? And they had this experience where their child came to dinner with their significant other. And as usual, they got around the table, they prayed for their meal, and they even prayed for this significant other. And that person started crying, and it touched her. And I think that's something that we don't have to change who we are as Christ following parents in order to actually step into a space and love our kids. We don't have to change our theology to love our kids. We don't have to do any of that. We can be good listeners. We can walk alongside, but we can pray at the dinner table. You never know what's going to happen.
- [18:20]
Jim Daly
Yeah, and that's the importance, because so many Christian parents, in order to accommodate, are uprooting their theology saying, okay, we're good with this. You know, Dr. Al Mohler, who was on the board here at Focus, he did a blog post and I think he spoke about this. But being asked to go to a same sex wedding, he had the best response, which was, I love you, I will go to the reception. But as a public testimony, I can't go to the wedding and agree. And the wedding is really a public pronouncement. Remember the old line, does anybody here have anything against these two coming together? That was said for a very specific reason. And his read of that is to say, as a Christian, I can't agree that that's a union that is ordained by God and that's where he's coming from. But I love you. I'd love to come to the reception and love on you more, but I can't go to the wedding. Will you let me do that? I thought it's an interesting and beautiful way to express both the convictions of the Christian. And everybody's gonna have a different opinion about this and it's not my son or daughter in that. So it's hard to say, but I thought it was a good scriptural way to respond.
- [19:37]
Mary DeMuth
I just want to give every parent in that position a hug because it's not something that we were prepared to walk through. There were no parenting books in the 90s really talking about this or the early aughts. And so a lot of parents that are walking through it are doing it kind of blind and kind of bumbling their way. And some will kind of err on the side of, of everything they do I love. And then on the other side they might be like, I'm going to ghost you forever and never talk to you again. And I do believe that there is a narrow way that we can go, which is sticking to your beliefs. You get to have your own beliefs. The Lord allows you to have your own beliefs. But you can also err on the side of love at all times. And you can, you know, be involved in people's lives.
- [20:27]
Jim Daly
Yeah. And, and you know, what? It's imperfect.
- [20:30]
Mary DeMuth
It is.
- [20:30]
Jim Daly
It's not gonna be a perfect path. You're not gonna hit the nail on the head every time and, you know, be accepting and forgiving of your own mistakes in this arena. But I would encourage people to stay sound in your theology. That's number one in terms of what does God expect of me. Right. You know, as a parent seeks empathy like we're describing, you know, to be there, to be present. You suggested two key things to keep in mind about the child's behavior, the adult child's behavior and the parent's heart. What are they?
- [21:02]
Mary DeMuth
You know, our children's behavior reveals their heart. So if we're listening to our children, we're going to be watching them, we're going to be seeing what kind of choices that they're making. And I think also as parents, we're revealing our heart by what we're saying. You know, sometimes things come out of my mouth that I want to take it back in. Yes. But I have noticed that for myself it's been really good. Like, oh my goodness, that was a very judgy, control y thing that I just said. Jesus, have mercy on me. And then in the next breath, if I'm smart enough in the moment or teachable enough, will you forgive me? I shouldn't have said that. You know, that's kind of how.
- [21:40]
Jim Daly
Yeah. Which is really good. And you know, that way you're progressing hopefully together toward a destination of good relationship and hopefully Christ centered relationship. You say the empty nest years can be joyful. Did you hear that, John?
- [21:53]
John Fuller
I did.
- [21:54]
Jim Daly
Me too.
- [21:54]
John Fuller
Being into it.
- [21:55]
Jim Daly
Me too. I'm getting it. But you compare it to your dog Daisy, which I love. Here we go with the dog analogy. What does Daisy do that reminds you of parenting adult children?
- [22:05]
Mary DeMuth
You know, she is lately hasn't been doing this because she's been bad, but she's supposed to be in a kennel at night and she's just a chocolate lab with bustling with energy. But she does go into her cage at night and then in the morning we release her and we take her on a walk and she's just bounding and leaping. And I don't want to say that parenting is like going into a cage, but it is hard. Those years, those, you know, 18 years of parenting your kids, it is. You're constantly busy working hard and trying to do everything right. And when they're released and they jump out there into the joy, you can do that too. This is a place where your ministry is going to grow. Exponentially. It has the potential to. You are going to have time with your spouse that you've never had before, and your ministry life can just explode because you have more time and more availability.
- [23:01]
John Fuller
Yeah, it's really encouraging. And there are parents. We've talked about this, I think, last time, about parents who are dealing with kids bouncing back in. Now for the cat.
- [23:10]
Jim Daly
People have a cat, too.
- [23:13]
John Fuller
In my head, I'm thinking, okay, what would the cat analogy be? And I think there is an element of cats don't care, and sometimes our kids don't care, and that kind of.
- [23:23]
Jim Daly
They're just laying on the couch.
- [23:24]
John Fuller
Well, or they're not in our lives, and they don't care to be in our lives. And that can be a boat anchor on that joy that you're talking about. So you're encouraging me to not let their decisions drive my joy or lack thereof.
- [23:37]
Mary DeMuth
Exactly.
- [23:38]
John Fuller
How do I let go?
- [23:38]
Mary DeMuth
And that's so hard. That's part of that grief process, that lament of, okay, this isn't what I wanted it to be. And then again, go back to the. Listen to their life. Give them strategic presence, meet their needs somehow. Listen when they call, and don't offer advice unless it's asked of you. And pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray that the Lord would restore that relationship somehow. Because I cannot tell you how amazing it is that our family, we still travel together and we still go to, you know, everywhere around the world together. And we love each other passionately. We so much love each other, we have all sorts of different opinions about things. It is possible to have kids that maybe are far from Jesus, and you can still have a relationship with them.
- [24:27]
Jim Daly
Boy, that is so good and so accurate, I think. And to me, that's the only hope that they're connected. And if you choose to disconnect out of temperament, you know, they're just not doing it the way I would do it. You're probably reducing the opportunity and the chance that they're gonna make it back, I think. I mean, the Lord can do anything. You know, I want to mention that idea of temperament, because I'm thinking of parenting styles, and temperament plays into that. The kind of the quiet dad who doesn't say much and you don't even know what his childhood was like because he doesn't talk about it. He's all inside. Or you might add to that. He's a very black and white thinker. He's an engineer. He's a cpa. I mean, not to. I'm just saying we're Born with a certain temperament that can trip us up in our parenting of adult children. Those are very deeply rooted behavior patterns that we have. And if we're making that mistake, you know that we're keeping a ledger of our children's activities and behaviors, because that's how I'm wired. They did three things right last week and 18 things wrong. How do we manage that? How do we let that go?
- [25:45]
Mary DeMuth
I think we can. If we're still list keepers, we can still keep a ledger for. But catch them doing right and tell them every kid. I need to hear from people in my life. I'm really proud of you. That was an amazing thing you did. I'm constantly doing that with my kids. If I see that they got a promotion in their job or they bought a house or whatever it is that they've done, I am so proud of you that I never did that when I was your age. You are exceeding beyond my wildest expectations. And not just, you know, saying things, to say things, but actual, genuine. I am noticing your life, life. And I am so proud of you. That's really important. I also just wanted to, before I forget, is address the idea of parental estrangement, because there are some people listening today that are brokenhearted and they have done everything that they can and their kids have walked away from them and it's been a decade and they're asking the question, will it ever be okay? And I can't answer that, but I can say it is hard. And I'm so sorry that you're walking through that. And to remember that God in the Garden was a perfect parent and his kids walked away from him and he's had the entire human race walk away from him. And I can tell you this, that you will have deeper camaraderie with Jesus in those moments because he absolutely empathizes and understands with the entire human race.
- [27:08]
Jim Daly
Walking away from him, well, that's a good place to land. The other thing is just always hold out hope. Give up hope and don't change or become sour in the relationship. And that's your only chance, your only hope for it, right? With the Lord's help. So, Mary, thank you so much for being with us. This has been terrific. It's a topic that we haven't spent a lot of time talking about, but you've hit all the high notes today. And if you are in need or you know somebody who needs a copy of Mary's book, Love, Pray. Parenting your wayward adult kids with joy. That's the key. I love that it just pops out on the COVID Get in touch with us. If you are in a place where you can't afford to make a donation to Focus, we get it. Just let us know and we'll send you the book and trust others will cover the cost of that. But if you can make a donation of any amount, we'll send the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. And right now, because of some generous friends of Focus on the Family, your gift will be doubled dollar for dollar. So this is a great time to help us extend our outreach and deliver hope and joy in Christ to many more families.
- [28:26]
John Fuller
Yeah. Join the support team of Focus on the Family with your donation. When you call 800 the letter A in the word family or stop by our website and that link is in the show notes and thanks for listening. Today to Focus on the Family with Jim Daily. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [28:54]
Jim Daly
God is at work and he's calling his people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Colson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit truthrising.com today. That's truthrising.com.