← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:00]
Focus on the Family Announcer
Chatgpt and AI can offer you ideas and attempt to give you answers, but it can't listen with compassion, pray with you, or guide you with wisdom shaped by faith. When life feels overwhelming, real human connection matters. At Focus on the Family, we believe in the power of professional help and biblical wisdom. That's why we offer a free confidential consultation with a caring Christian counselor to walk with you through life's struggles. Whether you're navigating challenges in marriage, parenting anxiety, grief or something else, our counselors are here to help. If you're hurting, don't wait. Hope is real and healing begins with a conversation. Request your free confidential consultation today. Call 1-800-A-FILY. That's 1-800-232-6459 or visit focusonthefamily.com gethelp that's focusonthefamily.com.
- [01:00]
Jim Daly
I'm Jim Daley. Don called to say Focus on the Family helped he and his wife with their number one job, parenting. For years. We just didn't have tools that we felt needed to raise a godly young man in the day and age we live. You guys have been there every step of the way for us. Help us empower more parents to raise a godly generation. Because when you donate to Focus on the Family today, your gift will be doubled. Call 1-800-the- letter A and the family.
- [01:33]
Dr. Greg Smalley
I think it's in those moments that hope is about us taking the next step. I mean, one of the things I learned on the mountain was this, just do something. Just take a step forward, even if it was the wrong step. I think just moving forward is a part of what God calls us to do as a parent.
- [01:53]
John Fuller
If you're a mom or a dad and you have challenging moments, especially with a teenager, we've got some encouragement for you today about the value of persevering and taking that next step. Our host is Focus president and author Jim Daly. And I'm John Fuller.
- [02:08]
Jim Daly
You know, being a parent, let's face it, it's hard work. And we hear from people each and every day here at Focus on the Family where they're struggling. And I want to say at the top of the program, we're here for you. I am one, and John, you are one. And if you're having difficulty, we want to be the first place you turn for help. Believe me, there's nothing you're going to tell us that we haven't heard the last 40 years of ministry here at Focus on the Family. And you know, there is no formula for raising healthy Self reliant, persevering kids. That's something we got to do away with. So many good parents call us and say, you know, our teen is moving down the wrong path. Don't beat yourself up. Just find some new tools that can help get that child on the right path. And we want to encourage you to do that and to mostly trust in God with the outcome of your kids.
- [03:02]
John Fuller
And, and you'll find a variety of parenting resources to help with your specific situations@focusonthefamily.com radio. And Dr. Greg Smalley is on staff here at Focus. He's the vice president of marriage and family formation. And Greg has written a number of books and one that he co wrote with his dad, the late Gary Smalley, is called the DNA of Parent Teen Relationships. That's going to serve as the foundation for today's conversation.
- [03:33]
Jim Daly
You know, one of the things I love about you, Greg, is that you have the gift of being able to tell great stories that really get the points across. But when you look at this parenting journey, you related it to a hiking trip that you had with your daughters. Tell us what happened.
- [03:49]
Dr. Greg Smalley
I had the opportunity to go with my two oldest daughters at the time, 17 and 20, their names Taylor and Murphy, to hike Mount Elbert, which is the highest peak in Colorado. So it's 14,400, 433ft.
- [04:04]
Jim Daly
That sounds exhausting.
- [04:07]
Dr. Greg Smalley
You know, I don't even know why I said yes when they talked about doing this, but we went. I tell you what, it's a remarkable experience filled with some of the best moments. I've had some of the most terrifying moments. At one point, I didn't think we were going to make started off great. Here we were hiking through the trees and the woods and we're crossing over streams and talking and my girls are asking me question that I've never heard them ask before. I mean, it's a father's dream come true. With my daughters facing the elements, we're challenged. And everything was going great until we cleared the tree line. And now we're sort of on this little mountain goat path kind of thing. No trees around. And then once we got past that, into just where it was rock. So now we're really high up in the air. Something happened that I never ever would have guessed would have happened. I didn't prepare for it, didn't think it was possible.
- [05:07]
Jim Daly
What was it? I mean, I'm on the edge of.
- [05:09]
Dr. Greg Smalley
The cliff, so I'm in shorts because this was during the summer. So I have a Little sweatshirt on, shorts, a little backpack, some food, water. And all of a sudden, the clouds rolled in and a storm hit. But it started to snow. This is in August, so it's sleeting. The wind picks up. It's going like 50 miles an hour in our faces. So we're freezing every step. You couldn't even see because of how hard the wind was blowing. And I have never been more miserable in all my life. I mean, I have nothing basically on but shorts.
- [05:46]
Jim Daly
Well, if you're that miserable, how are your daughters doing?
- [05:49]
Dr. Greg Smalley
Oh, it was terrible. As a matter of fact, it was Murphy's 17th birthday, and the more that we climbed and just the elements, it was so cold, we were so tired, such high altitude, hardly can breathe. As a matter of fact, she wants to turn back. She doesn't want to go on. And so she says, I'm done. Now. Her older sister Taylor is perfectionistic. If she says she's going to do something and she sets her mind to it, nothing's going to stop her. Nothing is going to stop her. So now they're fighting. So now we're in the middle of nowhere. I'm freezing the weather when we're not dressed right. My daughters are in a complete war because Murphy wants to go back. And so literally, other hikers are having to somehow get around my two girls who are fighting. There's a huge argument. I mean, I'm looking at them going, I work for Focus on the Family. I head up the parenting department. You know.
- [06:51]
John Fuller
Just met these girls, have no idea who they are.
- [06:53]
Jim Daly
But I'm trying to help my boys. My boys just never fight. You know that.
- [06:57]
Dr. Greg Smalley
I mean, it was terrible. I mean, the thing I'll never forget is when all that was happening, I just. I lost. I literally remember losing the will to continue going. I remember in my mind thinking, what does it matter? Why do we even have to go to the top? There's clouds. We're not going to be able to see anything anyway. And I'll never forget the utter despair which I know so many parents of teens go through.
- [07:24]
Jim Daly
That difference between Murphy and Taylor. Your older daughter, the perfectionist, and then your younger daughter who is ready to turn around. That plays out in households every day. Temperaments are different. Your children are different, even though they come from the same genetic pool. How do you manage that in a different context? Talk about that in the household when you're not climbing Mount Elbert. What. What is it like in the household? How does that play out when you have a daughter or a son going this way and the other one going that way. Yeah.
- [07:56]
Dr. Greg Smalley
I think for me, one of the best things I've learned is you don't parent looking at the problem. You parent looking at the child. So we have to understand as an individual. Yeah. Their temperament, their personality, all of those things factored in. I knew in that moment that Taylor so driven that unless her legs were both broken, she was going to crawl up and finish and get to the top, versus Murphy. Just very. Murphy hates to feel controlled. And so here Taylor and I are going, you can do it. And this is going to be so awesome. At the top, you hang in there for her. That feels like we're trying to manipulate and control her so she just digs in like she did on the trail.
- [08:38]
Jim Daly
Well, how does your older daughter and you, how do you succeed? I mean, what happens? What's the next step? How do you motivate her to get moving? I can understand that frustration that Murphy. I think I'm more like your older daughter. I'd be going, come on, let's go. We can't be that far away.
- [08:56]
Dr. Greg Smalley
Well, literally. Okay, picture this. We're up in the snow, the rocks, hikers all around us. And Murphy lays down on the trail. She's done. And I'm going, do I drag her? What do I do? And I just said, hey, Taylor, my oldest, just go on. You can do it. Go to the top. We'll be right here. You obviously have to come back by us and we'll just go back down after you're at the top. And that was it. I sat with Murphy. I mean, every part of me wanted to lecture. Every part of me wanted to give her the Knute Rockne speech of you can do it. And yet I've learned over the years with Murphy, if I sit there and just be present, she will come around. Now, the key for me, though, was someone came down the hill. So there was a hiker. And soon as he came to us, I said, buddy, man, where are we? I mean, are we anywhere near the top?
- [09:55]
Jim Daly
So you actually asked for directions. That's impressive.
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Dr. Greg Smalley
Well, I did. I needed hope. I mean, that's the realization of how damaging despair is. You know, when people get lost out in the woods, I've always heard that it's despair that really kills them. And it's when we give up. I needed something. And all that guy did is he just said, oh, hey, you guys, literally, it's up a couple more switchbacks. It's right up there. You can't see because the clouds are there. But it's right there. You can do it. He just kind of patted us both, cheered us on, and literally, I'll never forget how powerful that was the moment hope returned.
- [10:35]
Jim Daly
So that's what he gave you, was hope.
- [10:37]
Dr. Greg Smalley
And it was such a visceral reaction to going, whoa, Murphy, we're right there. And she got up and we just took it step by step heading in that direction. But that's the power of hope.
- [10:50]
Jim Daly
And Greg, there's so many analogies. It's a great story to apply to life, but you, you know, sometimes it's harder than that. It's not just a trek up a large mountain. It's the prodigal son or daughter. You know, parents that have 15, 16 year olds where the communication is not happening. They don't want to talk about how far away the peak is. They're not listening to you. They don't want to talk with you. And frankly, they won't listen to that hiker coming down the hill talk to that parent that is in the middle of that mountain journey.
- [11:22]
Dr. Greg Smalley
You can't control your child. And so the hope was not for my daughters in that moment on the mountain. The hope was for me. Because as the dad, as the leader of my family, I was the one that needed the hope. I was the one that needed to keep pressing forward even if Murphy would have stayed laying down on the trail. That was all for me. Because in those moments, that's our job, that as parents, we need something to grab hold of and what I love. Like one of my very favorite verses is Romans 15:13 that says, God, the source of hope, will fill you completely with joy and peace because you trust in him. Then you will overflow with confident hope through the power of the Holy Spirit. In other words, that's what I needed as their dad in that moment. I needed the hope. And I can't control Murphy. I mean, there wasn't a speech I could give or I couldn't literally fling her over my shoulder and carry her up. I think it's in those moments that hope is about us taking the next step. I mean, one of the things I learned on the mountain was this, just do something. Just take a step forward. Even if it was the wrong step. I think just moving forward is a part of what God calls us to do.
- [12:41]
Jim Daly
As a parent, in that prodigal situation, where again, you have a more desperate scenario, a parent sitting down, I mean, I like that metaphor where you sat with your daughter. Talk about that application of just being present, not having to give parental advice or wisdom, which in that context can so often be rejected, but your presence is appreciated. The fact that you're willing to sit with your prodigal child. What does that mean and what does it look like?
- [13:12]
Dr. Greg Smalley
I know climbing a mountain is very different than some of the experiences that a parent can go through with their child. Drugs, alcohol, rebellion, whatever it is. But I tell you what I'll never forget is that the despair that I felt, the confusion, the clouds, the sleet in my face, I lacked perspective. I didn't know what to do. And I know that that's a feeling that's real common with a parent who's going to go through that with a prodigal child. I think what I've learned is that first and foremost, we need to be the rock for our kids. We're going to go through our own emotions, and we need to know how to deal with those, and we need to know who to go to to help us deal with those. But our kids need a rock. They need us to be a present strength in their life. And I think what that does is that cultivates safety. When our kids go through these tough times, they need to feel safe.
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Focus on the Family Announcer
And.
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Dr. Greg Smalley
And the best way that we can start to help them to feel safe is. People don't care what you know until they know that you care. The old Teddy Roosevelt quote. And I love that. As a parent, I have to keep reminding myself, because as a dad, I want to instruct, I want to teach, I want to say the right things. But in those moments, what our kids need first and foremost is our compassion. They need our love, they need our tenderness, they need our presence. And I think what that does is that sets us up then to also be able to share what we know. But they're never going to listen, they're never going to care if they don't feel that we truly care for them and are that strength.
- [14:47]
Jim Daly
I've got to ask you, though, Greg, that's hard to do sometimes because there's sore disappointment, there's pain in that. If they've made very terrible decisions. And for many parents, their coping mechanisms may not be as strong as they need to be. And so you have this conflict that occurs because the disappointment is so deep. A parent can tend to respond to that in unhealthy ways. Describe the unhealthy parental response and what we can do in a better way to respond to that moment on that mountain.
- [15:25]
Dr. Greg Smalley
I was so frustrated. Part of me wanted to go down, part of me wanted, we're here, let's get to the top. Why are you laying on the ground? I mean, there was all of that. I think what we need to also be. Be watching for is the closing of our own hearts. See, I think that's what happens to us as parents is that our kids do things to frustrate us, to hurt us, to embarrass us. We end up feeling like failures. Whatever they're doing, part of what happens is it shuts us down. It closes our heart. When our hearts are closed, see, that's when we are so ineffective as parents. We're going to say the wrong thing, we're going to do the wrong thing. And when I was shut down, what I noticed was the power of the other hikers moving forward. That also helped give me strength. I think that's a part of what we have to cultivate. When our kids are making choices, we cannot face this alone. You know the old line, it takes a village to raise a child. I think that so much of that applies us as parents don't do this alone. I needed the support, I needed the encouragement. I cannot tell you how many other hikers would come by and just pat me on the, and pat us on the back and just say, hey, you can do it, man. You're doing great. We're almost there. That's the power of community. I think that's a big part of what can keep us open.
- [16:47]
John Fuller
Well, our guest on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly is Dr. Greg Smalley and he's on staff here and he's written a book called the DNA of Parent Teen Relationships that's going to give you hope and encouragement to persevere as a parent. And you can get a copy as well as a CD of this conversation@focusonthefamily.com radio or when you call 800 a family. And today, when you make a generous contribution of any amount to support the ministry of Focus on the Family, we'll send the book to you as our way of saying thanks, Greg.
- [17:21]
Jim Daly
Let me ask some real practical questions. I'm thinking of the mom and dad. And again, answer it from both viewpoints. The mom, let's start there. Who has that? Three, four, five year old moms, understandably, they mother, they have that instinct to be there, to be present, to alleviate pain, to keep them safe. It's all the instincts that God has given them. At some point, it can be a hindrance to the child. Learning failure, learning what it takes to succeed. What advice do you have for that mom who may be asking herself, am I turning into that helicopter parent, am I overdoing it? Because I don't want them to fail? When failure actually plays an important role in knowing who you are and knowing who God is.
- [18:09]
Dr. Greg Smalley
It's one of the greatest gifts we will ever give our kids is the gift of failure. I so want my kids to fail first and foremost in my home so that I can at least be there to help guide and instruct and teach and mentor. Opposed to trying to keep them from any sort of pain, any sort of failure. Only thinking about success and then I release them into the world where they're going to fail.
- [18:36]
Jim Daly
Greg, let me go to that point for this mom of a 5 year old and she's noticing now maybe she needs to let that child fail. How do you anticipate that? How do you construct that environment to allow that failure to happen and then let's take it up to the 15 year old when those consequences are more difficult.
- [18:58]
Dr. Greg Smalley
As parents I think we always have to cultivate an environment that failure is okay.
- [19:02]
Jim Daly
What does that look like? So I don't do the job I should have done at a 5, 6, 7 year old level. What do you say to me as a parent?
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Dr. Greg Smalley
Well, so first of all I need to model for my kids and let them see me fail and then watch me make it right.
- [19:17]
Jim Daly
So fail as a parent so they could see it.
- [19:19]
Dr. Greg Smalley
Absolutely. We are failing as parents all the time. There's so many times that I have an opportunity to sit my kids down and go man, I blew it. That was a terrible choice. That was a terrible decision. How I treated you, I mean whatever it is, dad is not perfect. I made a mistake, I own it. And now I'm going to seek your forgiveness. I think what that does is it creates an environment where okay, failure is okay. I've seen parents that explode when someone spills milk. When we come down on them so hard, it doesn't make them feel safe. One, they're going to hide their mistakes more likely. And we can't use that then built upon that. When our kids make poor choices or they mess up in some ways, I think it's going to them with tenderness. Making sure that we deal with our own stuff first instead of reacting to our kids. Sometimes we have to step back, sort of put ourselves in a timeout. You know what I'm talking about? When we're upset and mad, we need to and say it and say it. We just, we need to let. I need to make sure that my heart is open when I go to discipline. Punishment very different. Discipline is when we're helping them become more like Christ. And we're using that mistake.
- [20:28]
Jim Daly
Move it up now to the 13, 14, 15 year old. Maybe it's a failure in school. You know, they're not applying themselves. We can't motivate them as parents to get the homework done. It's a constant fight and it's leading to rebellion. Talk about that example. Do we let them fail a class or two so they suffer the consequences of it?
- [20:50]
Dr. Greg Smalley
My parents let me. I failed Spanish and I begged them to go in, talk to the teacher, please. You're Gary and Norma Smalley. Come on, they'll listen to you. Please don't let me do this. I don't want to repeat. They me do that. And I lost TV for a full semester. No video games, nothing. I remember with my oldest daughter, Taylor, when she was, I think, in middle school, she was writing, some paper was due. And so she, before she went to bed, she goes, dad, will you just look at this and make sure it's okay? Well, I read it and went, well, this stinks. I mean, I'm not the world's best writer, but I mean, this is terrible. And so I went, she's going to fail. Oh, no, I can't let that. I rewrote the thing for her. Her teacher calls me in and goes, this was a really great paper. So I'm thinking, I'm good.
- [21:42]
Jim Daly
What grade is she in? First grade.
- [21:47]
Dr. Greg Smalley
She was in college, but no, she was in middle school. And so I'm thinking, thank you. And she goes, but I know you wrote this. There's no way your daughter did this.
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Jim Daly
Busted.
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Dr. Greg Smalley
And the teacher, I mean, it was a great reminder of that teacher saying, let your daughter fail. You denied me the opportunity to teach her through my response and reply on her paper that she would have learned so many things. And you took that away from her.
- [22:14]
Jim Daly
Greg, you talked about the treasure hunt in the book, and I want to get to that because I think that's a good tool. First, define what the treasure hunt for your children is and then how we can help his parents.
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Dr. Greg Smalley
It's the absolute belief that when God says multiple times in the Bible that he will use our pain and trials to grow us, we get something.
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Jim Daly
It's a treasure.
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Dr. Greg Smalley
It's a treasure. We need to find it so that it might be lying on the ground. We need to hunt for it. And that's something that I think is so powerful to teach our kids that as we go through trials, it's always such an opportunity to look back and look for what I would call the Ebenezer. An Ebenezer is a stone of help. They call that from the Old Testament, the stone of help. In other words, they created a little monument out of stones as a recognition of God's ever present help in our lives. And treasure hunting is when we look back and we take those stones that are really diamonds and we begin to stack them up 1. To recognize what God has done in our life, but also as a way to glorify him. That's what an Ebenezer is. When my family, when we go through hard times, we will always circle back around and say, what did God teach us? It's the promise. See, that's the hope. Truly hope. On the side of the mountain, people gave us hope when they pointed out, hey, you're almost there. Go for it. And we made it. We have a picture up there holding a little sign. We made it to the top, all three of us. But the true hope in life is that God's going to use all these trials in our life to grow us more like him.
- [23:55]
Jim Daly
Did your daughter ever say that gave me confidence.
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Dr. Greg Smalley
What was really cool on the way down, we were processing. I was not trying to be spiritual. I was not trying to be counselor. I mean, I was worn out. I was like, I don't really want to talk. But I'll never forget that. Both girls said, you know what, dad? There are going to be times in our life we're going to face things. And honestly, we made it to the top. There's nothing that we can't face and overcome because we climb the mountain. I mean, it became. It's become a real Ebenezer in their life. And I think that's the opportunity as parents, when our teens are going through something tough, sometimes one of the greatest things that we can do is just to call out what we know is true in their life and then just trust that God's going to get them there. Like when Gideon, remember in the Old Testament when he was on the mountain and the angel came? Remember the angel called him a mighty warrior. Gideon argues with him. This isn't true. I'm not a mighty warrior. But that angel kept saying, mighty warrior, mighty warrior. In other words, that angel was calling out of Gideon what Gideon couldn't see. And I think that's one of the greatest things that we can do for our kids when they face these trials is to continue to call out, I know who you are. This is not who you are. I know who you are. And I know that God's going to help you get there well.
- [25:16]
Jim Daly
And that gives our children such confidence and hope to grow in the right direction. Greg Small, author of the book the DNA of Parent Teen Relationships. Great to talk with you. Thanks for the perspective of being a good father. And I know, Erin, your wife is a great mom. So thanks for being with us today.
- [25:33]
Dr. Greg Smalley
You're welcome. I'll see you out on the trail next time.
- [25:37]
John Fuller
What a great conversation. And this has really highlighted, Jim, why we're here at Focus on the Family.
- [25:42]
Jim Daly
It has, John. You know, it's not about us. We want to come alongside you when you're struggling. And guess what? That's what happens in life. You're going to hit some obstacles. You're going to hit some moments when you're going, my parenting just doesn't seem to be working. I hit those times. And it is for that reason that we're here. We want to be able to provide you some good Christian counseling on how to do it differently, maybe hopefully better. And we have staff here to provide you with that initial counseling consultation. And then if you need it, they'll refer you to someone in your area. We have an extensive referral list of Christian counselors around the country, so take advantage of that. Also, in the last 12 months we've helped, and I love this, 200,000 families worked through a significant crisis involving their children. And our counseling department took over 4,000 calls a month to give hope to hurting individuals and families. And you know what the reality is? We need your help to be able to provide that help to the hurting families. I remember making a thank you call to someone who gave a significant gift to Focus. And as I was thanking him, he said, jim, Jim, it's okay. We expect you to run an efficient, effective organization for my wife and I to do ministry through. And at first it kind of took me back, but it's right. My goal here is to make sure all of us as team members at Focus are on the top of our game so that you and your family can do ministry through us. So when we talk about that marriage saved or that parenting crisis averted, you share in the bounty of that and I hope you feel it. I want you to feel it because you're a part of it. Currently, we're experiencing a bit of a summer shortfall and we need your help. If you haven't supported us in a while, can we count on you to give a gift today? And when you do, we have some friends who have put together a matching fund that will double your gift. So when you give $20, $50. They'll match it with with 20 more or 50 more. And it's a wonderful way, a fun way to be able to motivate all of us to give to the ministry here at Focus on the Family. So please donate today.
- [27:56]
John Fuller
Be generous when you call 800 the letter A in the word family. Or you can donate online@focusonthefamily.com radio. And when you do today, we'll send a copy of Greg's book, the DNA of Parent Teen Relationships as our way of saying thank you and making sure that you have this excellent resource for your family or perhaps a family in your neighborhood or church. Our program was provided by Focus on the Family. And on behalf of Jim Daly, I'm John Fuller inviting you back tomorrow when we hear from Eric Metaxas about the importance of great men in American history.
- [28:32]
Dr. Greg Smalley
Without the faith of George Whitefield, which led to the faith of most people during the colonial era, there is no America. Without without the faith of those who led the abolitionist movement, there is no end to the slavery in America. Without the faith of the people in the civil rights movement, there is no civil rights movement. Faith from the beginning to now has been the thing that has blessed all Americans.
- [28:59]
John Fuller
And you'll hear more from Eric Metaxas tomorrow on FOCUS on the family, as we once again help you and your family thrive.
- [29:15]
Dr. Greg Smalley
Hi, I'm Eva, a producer for Focus on the Family. If we've helped strengthen your family or encouraged you in your faith, would you let us know? Take our listener survey@focusonthefamily.com radio so we can better serve you in the future.
- [29:30]
Focus on the Family Announcer
ChatGPT and AI can offer you ideas and attempt to give you answers, but it can't. Listen with compassion, pray with or guide you with wisdom shaped by faith. When life feels overwhelming, real human connection matters. At Focus on the Family, we believe in the power of professional help and biblical wisdom. That's why we offer a free confidential consultation with a caring Christian counselor to walk with you through life's struggles. Whether you're navigating challenges in marriage, parenting anxiety, grief or something else, our counselors are here to help. If you're hurting, don't wait. Hope is real and healing begins with a conversation. Request your free confidential consultation today. Call 1-800-A-FUSY. That's 1-800-232-6459 or visit focusonthefamily.com gethelp that's focusonthefamily.com GetHelp.