← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:01]
Jim Daly
Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup. But when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the Family. It's called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally. So I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:31]
Justin Brierly
You have to be honest, coming to faith. Absolutely. An intellectual component of that is often very important for people, but there's also a spiritual component where you have to let your guard down and you have to open yourself up to the possibility that God may be the thing you were looking for all along. And when that happens, when the head and the heart meet, that can be just the most extraordinary thing.
- [00:52]
John Fuller
That's Justin Brierly. He's a popular writer and podcaster in the UK and he's convinced that we're witnessing a growing wave of Christian faith replacing the secularism in the culture. The question is, are we ready for it? Welcome to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller.
- [01:09]
Jim Daly
John I visited with Justin on my podcast Refocus with Jim Daly and we had a great conversation about what he's observing in the culture. That's kind of the theme of the podcast is culture and also what he's observing among agnostics and atheists. There is quite a wave, I think occurring. There's been some notable atheists now that have come to the Christian perspective, Christian faith. And like Justin, I believe we have an amazing opportunity to share the gospel right now. And that's what we talked about during our visit. I first met Justin in London when we were promoting our new documentary film Truth Rising, produced with the Colson center, which fits right into the discussion today. We also have a free four part study to help equip you to reach others for Christ in this critical moment. And I want to urge you to be part of this movement to impact the culture.
- [02:03]
John Fuller
And we have details about Truth Rising and that free four part study guide in the program notes. And Justin Brierly is a Christian apologist, a very popular author, and his book that forms the basis for this discussion is called why I'm Still a Christian. After Two Decades of Conversations with Skeptics and Atheists, the Reason I Believe. And Justin has two very popular podcasts. One is the Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God and the other is called Re Engaging. And let's go ahead and hear that conversation with Justin Brierly on today's episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
- [02:43]
Jim Daly
Justin, thanks for joining me today on Focus on the Family.
- [02:47]
Justin Brierly
Thank you so much. Great to be with you.
- [02:49]
Jim Daly
Let's get into it. You believe that Christians need to be well rounded. That sounds good. You know, studying and knowing the word and knowing the world we're in, how important is it for cultural understanding?
- [03:04]
Justin Brierly
It's hugely important because if we don't know what we believe and why we believe it, then when those difficult questions come, when we have those cultural conversations, you know, we're going to be left stranded. And so absolutely, I think we've got more information now at our fingertips than we've had in many years. You can go online, you can find all kinds of resources. So in a way, there's no excuse to take really seriously what was been said from the first century. Always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks you about the reason for the hope that you have. And that's essentially what I've been trying to do through what's technically called apologetics, but just generally engaging with culture and seeing why it makes sense these days to believe in God.
- [03:46]
Jim Daly
Yeah. You know, I'm aware of a 2022 survey and it reported that 28% and these are probably very similar to statistics here in the US but 28% of people in the UK think of Jesus as a mythical figure, kind of a comp of good deeds done. And they put it under this mythical figure. About 54% of the UK folks believe he was a real person. So that's actually good. But it's significantly down from past decades. What do you think about that? We're seeing some survey work now showing that that trend may have bottomed out and that more people are turning back to a belief in Christ.
- [04:29]
Justin Brierly
Yeah. And this is the really interesting aspect of what I've been calling in some of my work a surprising rebirth of belief in God in the UK but also in the west more generally. And you're right that skepticism around the Bible, around Jesus has been very prevalent in the last couple of decades, especially with the rise of new atheism and, and some of these big atheistic characters. But I noticed as I was hosting conversations between Christians and non Christians, a real change actually in the atmosphere in just the last few years around faith, a much more openness. Exactly what you' describing their gym, especially among younger generations. Interestingly, and I think it's because the, the secular humanist atheist narrative just hasn't worked out for people frankly, it's produced a very polarized sort of conflicted culture where people don't really have a story to believe in any longer. And I think young people especially, they're looking for a story to make sense of life. And I think that's what is happening. We're starting to see, especially with interesting influencers like Jordan Peterson and here in the uk, historians like Tom Holland talking about faith in ways that are beginning to make sense again for young people and adults in general. So I'm quite excited to see, as you say, some statistics now coming out showing that there is a difference. In fact, some very interesting statistics here in the UK that show actually a real rise in attendance in church among young people, especially among young men.
- [05:53]
Jim Daly
You know, one of the things at this point of our discussion I think is important to mention, you know, Christians, I think every generation thinks this is the end times. You know, look how children are behaving. And for my journey in that way, I have wanted to develop a confidence that God has this in his hands. And it's kind of an interesting equation. That's so true. What the world should see in us is this amazing confidence about eternity. And sometimes when these destabilizing things occur in culture, in politics, whatever it might be, it actually, it's interesting that non believers are troubled. Looking at us being troubled, yes, absolutely.
- [06:37]
Justin Brierly
If we call ourselves Christians, we should have that kind of confidence in the rock that is Jesus Christ, so that whatever is going on around us, we have this refuge and this hope in something that is eternal and unshifting, despite the changing tides of politics and culture. Interestingly, just to add to that, though, one of the reasons I'm seeing people taking Christianity seriously again, many secular people, I think it's because they realize, well, you know, politicians can't solve this stuff. You know, scientists can't solve this stuff. The sociologists can't solve this stuff. Maybe it's worth going back to the original story that seems to have grounded the west. And for that reason, although we don't like living in tumultuous, turbulent times, sometimes those are the kinds of times that God uses to actually draw people back to himself.
- [07:22]
Jim Daly
Well, exactly Right. Let's talk about science and those things. The skeptics, you might say, but your dad, just to start that process there. Your dad was a scientist, correct?
- [07:35]
Justin Brierly
That's right.
- [07:36]
Jim Daly
I mean, so how did he, as a man of faith, I'm assuming that. But how did he come to those conclusions that all the science he was studying and talking about was congruent with his faith.
- [07:49]
Justin Brierly
Yeah, well, I was really fortunate to grow up in a home where faith was absolutely a part of family life. But absolutely there was an openness to the intellect, to scientific inquiry, as you say. My dad was a biochemist, but by background, and so we often had conversations as I was growing up about the interaction of science and faith. And he was someone who just never saw a conflict between the two that. That was increasingly being sort of put out there by the new atheists when, at the time where I was going into my late teens and early twenties. But actually it was really helpful having my dad, who was grounded in science, to say, well, actually, when I look at the world, at biology, at physics, I actually see this extraordinary amount of coherence that seems to beyond itself towards some kind of creative intelligence. So, you know, working in biochemistry, my father sort of had spent time looking at the extraordinary inner workings of the cell and the way in which DNA, you know, sort of was this extraordinary factory for producing all the parts of a person or a tree or a flower. And he said, there's just no way. This came about by a completely undirected, purposeless process. He said, just looking at it scientifically tells you that that's not true. And so he was someone who kind of helped me to see that actually there's. There's something deeper than just the physics and the chemistry and the biology going on. There's actually a kind of, well, literally what the Gospel of John calls the word, the logos behind it all, the thing that spoke life into existence. You have to have that. You have to have that spoken piece of information that. That thing that actually makes it come alive. And that, I think, is what scientists ultimately are kind of studying. They're not studying dead matter. They're studying things that have this divine spark of life within them.
- [09:33]
Jim Daly
Yeah, in that context, this element of faith, I mean, that is it. If you could prove something absolute, faith is not required. You have to take that step, that plunge into something you don't understand. And I guess, do you see a pattern with people like Richard Dawkins and the others that you've debated and talked with that you're mentioning? Does that become really the problem, that they just can't accept this idea that faith is an element that God would want to see us demonstrate in order to believe?
- [10:08]
Justin Brierly
I think there's definitely something in that, Jim, because, you know, I've had hundreds of conversations with atheists over the years, and in the process, you know, we've often gone back and forth on the intellectual arguments for and against God. But I very often get to the point where I think, well, ultimately this isn't necessarily just an intellectual thing. There's a heart issue here as well. And, and it's that question of do I want to believe in something that I can't, if you like, examine, understand at a purely intellectual level. Because that, that means a certain amount of humility, almost a surrender, if you like. And it's not that we have to surrender our intellect or our reason when we become a Christian, far from it. I think God, if you like, makes absolute sense of our intellect and our reason, but we do have to surrender our ego. And the idea that I am the top dog, the one to whom I will kind of be the judge of everything else. When you realize there's a judge above you and that you will never fully be able to understand or grasp, that requires a certain amount of humility. And I think that is where a number of the atheists I've engaged do struggle, because they don't want the universe to be like that. They want to be at the top of the pecking order and having to say, no, you are God and I am not God. That's something different than intellect. That's a spiritual issue at its core.
- [11:25]
Jim Daly
You know, some of it is just humorous observations sometimes. I have a friend who's a Christian, he said, you know, with atheists, it's amazing. They don't believe in God, but they spend a lot of time talking about him. You must feel that way, too. I mean, these are people that should shrug you off. You know, I really don't care, but to their credit, they want to engage you. But I do notice a lot of atheists are very vigorous about talking God down.
- [11:51]
Justin Brierly
Yes. As one friend put it to me, I don't believe in God, but I hate him. You know, there's this kind of odd sort of contradiction, isn't there? And, and I, I think, yes, that that's probably true. I, again, I, I don't want to, you know, dismiss the honest search that many of my atheist friends go on, but at the same time, I've also seen that kind of atheism, which, once you dig below the surface, it's not really an intellectual thing. It's just people just don't like the idea of God. They, they sort of have a. Yeah, they just want to push it away. Having said that, you know, it's extraordinary what can happen to give a change of heart. I mean, you've probably heard the story of Ian Hersi Alley, probably the Most famous female atheist in the world. At one time, I completely rejected God, religion, great friends with Hitchens, Harris Dawkins, all the new atheists. And yet, just about a year and a half ago, she has this extraordinary conversion to Christian faith. And it's an intellectual journey. Certainly at one level, she came to see the way in which, really, Christianity was the foundation for everything she appreciated about Western civilization. But it was also a personal journey where she kind of encountered a meaning crisis. She couldn't sustain her belief in, you know, the value of life and everything else. She couldn't see a way forward on a purely atheistic worldview. She became very depressed, nihilistic, even alcoholic. And it was only when a counselor said to her, iron, I think you're spiritually bankrupt. Have you considered praying? And she said, well, I can't pray. The God I was raised with was a monster because she had been raised in a fundamentalist Islamic sect and rejected it. But then this counselor said, well, what kind of a God could you believe in? And this was the turning point for her. It was definitely a spiritual turning point because she says, she started to describe the kind of God she'd be willing to believe in. And she realized she was basically describing Jesus Christ. And so she thought, well, maybe I ought to investigate this person who claimed to be God. She began praying, she started going to church, and in her own words, God turned her life upside down. So I think, you know, you have to be honest, coming to faith, absolutely. An intellectual component of that is often very important for people. But there's also a spiritual component where you have to let your guard down and you have to open yourself up to the possibility that God may be the thing you were looking for all along. And. And when that happens, when the head and the heart meet, that can be just the most extraordinary thing.
- [14:11]
Jim Daly
It's very much that step of faith we're talking about. We're actually releasing a film she's featured in called Truth Rising. I loved her line in that film. She said, what I found is that most every other mechanism of faith around the world, and she was talking probably about her experience, as in being raised in an Islamic home, is that when she encountered Christianity, she said, I realized this was a faith rooted in love. And I had never encountered that. I thought that is powerful. Because if you think about God, like, to your point, if you could design the Jesus of your dreams, this is it. The Lord has done it. We just have to discover it. Let's move into cultural observations. You know, one of the things for Western Culture, this is where we're linked around the world, Western culture. But as you see a decline in moral stability, you see a rise in evil. I mean, I think that is an equation that most of us in the faith would agree with. Probably atheists may not agree with. But just describe that observation that when moral guidance, moral boundaries are loosened, what happens is you have more immoral behavior.
- [15:29]
Justin Brierly
Yeah. And it was Nietzsche, you know, a well known atheist, who put it so succinctly. He said, without God everything is permissible. Because in a sense, if we do live in a world where there is no God, there is no ultimate moral law at the foundation of reality, then in a sense it's a free for all. It is just whoever is the most powerful, whoever gets their way, kind of gets to rule, gets to set the rules. And yeah, of course, that's why in a culture where we are of forgetting God in so many ways and in a sense saying, well, there are no rules to be obeyed, we just, you know, have to make it up for ourselves. Inevitably that gives license for people to go off in all kinds of immoral directions. I think though it's almost the fact that that is happening so much in our culture now has kind of led some people to realize, well, I don't like the direction this culture is going and I think we've kind of gone off the rails and that there's a very interesting sort of impetus back to more conservative Christian values in, in lots of, of the culture, Daddy, even from non Christians, interestingly. And I think what's interesting about that is that the question is, can you sustain those kinds of values without the story that undergirds them? And, and I don't think you can. I think that the reason we started to talk about humans in the way we do as having individual value and dignity because they're made in the image of God. The reason we started to give dignity to, to women, to children, you know, to slaves in the first century it was the Christian church, the rev, the way we think about how to treat people and morality. That all happened because there was an absolute belief at the center of it that God had become human and experienced life with us and had given his life for us in the most extraordinary act of sacrificial love that completely changed the way people thought about what it means to be human. And it's the reason why Christianity became the most extraordinary moral force the world had ever seen. Now, as we lose the Christian story, the question is, can we keep those values, those things that people sort of still recognize as being fundamental and important. And I think without the Christian story, we can't actually. And that's why people are asking now, well, maybe we need a return of Christianity. Maybe the new atheists, in being so quick to dismiss and, you know, get people to abandon faith, maybe they didn't realize actually what they were letting in in its place, which is this completely amoral, immoral, divided and confused culture that we now find ourselves in. And that for me is so interesting that sometimes things have to get worse before people realize they need Christianity again.
- [18:06]
Jim Daly
And of course, in that context, we as Christians are going, how much worse can it get? But again, the Lord's in control and there is some deep end of the pool that he seems to bring culture back out of that and to make people aware that that's too far. But let me hit you with some good, tough questions so people can be equipped to answer these. Again, you're an apologist, and this is what your world's all about. Christianity makes the claim to be the sole religion, the faith that actually connects to God. And there's lots of analogies. It's God reaching to us, not us reaching to him. But give it your best shot. When you're with somebody who says, well, I just think that's so narrow and so exclusionary. How can Christianity make that claim that they're the only religion?
- [18:56]
Justin Brierly
Well, the first thing I'd want to gently point out to the person who says that is, well, you're also making an exclusive claim just in saying that Christianity cannot be the only true religion. You know, that's simply, yeah, too arrogant or too particular. Because actually what the person is effectively saying is, I have the correct view. I think maybe that all religions lead to God and we're all just sort of on, you know, different paths up the mountain. Well, that means that they have a specific exclusive view about religion and they're making a truth claim. So the point is, we're all making claims about truth about reality. The question is, is yours true or is mine true? And, and in a sense, I think you just have to accept that we're all in the same boat in that regard. But the next place I'd want to go to with, with someone who says this is that the reality is, you know, religions are different. They make very different claims about reality. And it's. It can actually be rather insulting to say, well, we're all basically believe the same thing, don't we? No, we don't. You know, a Muslim believes very different things about God to a Christian. Very different things about Jesus between a Christian and a Jewish person, maybe. And actually it's more respectful to acknowledge that we, we have our different claims and, and obviously have good faith conversations about that, but don't simply sort of try to pretend that we're somehow all the same. We're not. And it's important to recognize that, that. And then finally, I'd want to say it leaves us with this question in the end. Well, if there is a God, has that God revealed himself to us? Because if, if it's not just a case of saying, oh, well, they're all basically the same, or just kind of, you just have to pick one at random. The question is, is there a reason to believe that Christianity is the true revelation of God? And I obviously believe there is. And the reason is because God came in person in the Christian story to show who he was. And I rather liken it sometimes to a key that opens a door. You know, when I walk up to the church that I attend, I have a whole, you know, I've got access to the church with a big bunch of keys and they, they all look rather similar, these keys. So sometimes I sort of have to try a few in the lock before finding the one that actually opens the door. But then once I've opened the door with that key, I don't then try all the others as well, just in case one of them works. And I think it's the same with religion. You might look around and you might try and find, you know, but you don't have to try every religion out there. If you find the key that opens the door, you found the real thing. And I think for me, that's expressed in Jesus, especially in his resurrection. If Jesus was who he claimed to be, the Son of God, and if he died and rose again in vindication of that claim, then you found the key that opens the door. You don't have to go searching through every religion. And it just is a fact that, that God has come, made himself known in this person, Jesus. There's a whole chapter in the book where I talk about the resurrection and why I think it is actually the definitive event of history and why we can have real faith in the historical claims of the Christian faith. But that for me is at the center of kind of going through the weeds of, well, maybe it's this religion, maybe it's the other. How can we ever know? I think we can know because of Jesus.
- [22:05]
Jim Daly
I like that. I like that analogy of the ring of keys. That's really good. And I'll use that when I talk to my unsaved friends at this point. That's a good one. I think at the end here is just this idea. Apologetics can often be seen as a battleground. You know, it's like playing rugby or American football. There's a goal and I'm going to go on offense and try to score the goal and get you to see the light, so to speak. And, you know, it's this tug of war of ideas and thoughts and philosophy and religion and who's right and who's wrong. It seems like you have a great way, a winsome way of saying, well, let's just come reason together. Which is what the Lord says, obviously speak to that need for that winsomeness and that idea that you're not here to win, you're simply here to live out the faith so people can see something different and hopefully develop that appetite then to want what you have.
- [23:11]
Justin Brierly
Yeah, well, I think you've put it so well yourself there, Jim, but I come back to where I began with 1st Peter 3:15. In a sense, that is the classic apologists verse, isn't it? Always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks you about the reason for the hope that you have. Now that's what you're doing at an intellectual level with apologetics. You're trying to make the case, answer questions and, and show that it makes sense to believe in God, to believe in Jesus. We sometimes forget the bit at the end of the verse though, don't we? Which is. But do this with gentleness and respect because. And that is so critical because if you're simply there to. As a sort of battering ram trying to make someone believe with the force of your intellectual arguments, I think that often fails because people want to feel that they're actually being heard at their end. You know, that you're taking a real interest in them, that you're not just. Just seeing them as a sort of project, if you like. And that's where the gentleness and respect comes in. Because the way you say things matters just as much as what you say. And I don't believe anyone in the end gets argued into the kingdom of God. Okay? It's got to be about them wanting what's on offer in the end. And for me that's so important. And sometimes we can do a great job of arguing for God, but not of representing God in the way we, we say these things in the end. Some. No one's going to want to become a Christian. If the example they have sitting in front of them, you doesn't look like the kind of person they'd want to become. So in the end, yes, we need to use intellectual arguments, but we need to represent God. We need to do it with, with grace and respect, just as we're commanded to in scripture. And that's the magic formula. That's the way when we have good conversations, when we open ourselves up, when we treat people as human beings worthy of our dignity and respect, you might just find that conversation goes somewhere.
- [25:02]
Jim Daly
Yeah, it's so good. I've had secular friends who have said, yeah, I would never become a Christian because I knew this Christian and he stiffed me for 100 bucks. And now I'm saying, people's behavior will always let you down, no matter what the standard. We find a way to do worse than the standard. But don't let that dictate your search for the Lord and your search for meaning and eternal life. So, Justin, this has been terrific. I'm looking forward to reading your book, why I'm Still a Christian. I'll be giving it away to my boys and everybody I know because this is what it's all about. And you've beautifully put together a real, sensible, reasonable articulation of why the faith is so important, not just to Christians, but to everybody. Thanks for being with us.
- [25:54]
Justin Brierly
Oh, thank you for the opportunity, Jim. It's been an absolute delight.
- [25:59]
John Fuller
What a great conversation Jim had with Justin Brierly on his podcast Refocus with Jim Daly. And you can listen to the entire in depth discussion. We're going to link to it in the show notes.
- [26:11]
Justin Brierly
John.
- [26:12]
Jim Daly
I love how Justin is able to address scientific issues with scriptural truth without ignoring the heart of the issues that are drawing people in the culture to search for truth. You know, that's part of truth Rising. We're saying truth will rise and the truth is Jesus. And I'm excited about the impact that film and this podcast and this broadcast will make. You know, Justin's given us some good reminders as we go about our day to take time to listen to others and to hear their stories and develop caring relationships as we represent Christ in our conversations. This is why focus on the family is so important. At this very moment, we're sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ, helping families to navigate this culture, providing counseling for those who call us, and seeing over 290,000 people just last year make a decision for Christ. You are making it all possible when you are part of the financial support team. And this is one of many wonderful outcomes. One way you can help is to ask us for Justin's book, why I'm Still a Christian. I think it will be very beneficial for you when you make a donation of any amount, whatever you can afford to help us in ministry here at Focus on the Family. We'll thank you by sending this great book.
- [27:36]
John Fuller
Call today, donate and get that book. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word family. That's 800-232-6459 or check the program notes for the link. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [28:08]
Justin Brierly
Sprinkle some love into your marriage this month with the Loving well podcast from Focus on the Family. I'm Erin Smalley and I host the podcast with my husband, Dr. Greg Smalley, and our good friend John Fuller. We chat about how to put Christ at the center of your relationship, deepen your love, and have a marriage that truly thrives. Listen today at focusonthefamily.com lovingwell or wherever you get your podcasts.