← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:00]
Jim Daly
Today is Martin Luther King Jr. Day, and we want to take a moment to reflect on a man who left an indelible impression on our country and the world, setting the stage for social change that continues to this day. Here's our friend Cary Casey and some other prominent Focus on the Family guests to share about some of Dr. King's contributions. Dr. King knew who he was. Now what am I saying? Daddy went to Washington, D.C. on a hot, sweltering August 28 day, 1963, and 250,000 other people were there when Dr. King shared. I have a dream. I have a dream that one day.
- [00:44]
Dr. Barry Corey
This nation will rise up, live out.
- [00:48]
Jim Daly
The true meaning of its creeds. We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal. Dr. King, right there in his message that day, he said, I hope I live in a country one day where my children, my four little children would not be judged by the color of their skin, but the content of their character. Dr. King talked about segregation. He also talked about what it would mean if those laws were dismantled. On a very personal level and on a very elementary level, dismantling segregation might mean that I could go to the library, that I could go to Kiddieland or to the zoo, that if we went shopping, we could try on the clothes, we could get on the bus, and we could sit wherever we wanted to sit on the bus. If you think about it, those are really small things to ask for.
- [01:48]
Dr. Barry Corey
This nation was founded by men of many nations and backgrounds. It was founded on the principle that all men are created equal and that the rights of every man are diminished when the rights of one man are threatened.
- [02:02]
Jim Daly
For me, when I think about him, I think about somebody who answered a call and somebody who was willing to be ostracized and eventually murdered for what he knew was right.
- [02:13]
Dr. Barry Corey
I think that what we need to do moving forward is to look at the foundation.
- [02:19]
Jim Daly
Dr. King was motivated by love, the.
- [02:22]
Dr. Barry Corey
Love that comes from Jesus Christ.
- [02:24]
Jim Daly
Now think about this. If we couldn't demonstrate to the rest of the world what it looked like when we came together and made the effort to understand each other and to love each other, how could we expect the entire country to do it? So I think we as God's people have a responsibility to tackle this issue with our kids and lead the way. As Christians, we need to empathize with others and their experiences and remember that all men, women and children made in God's image and deserve to be treated with dignity. That's our challenge. So let's live out that message. Of love and hope every day.
- [03:06]
Dr. Barry Corey
It's easy to be nice to the barista right. When she gets your coffee. Right. It's easy to be kind when there's harmony in your family. But try kindness when there's dissension. Try kindness when you have a strained relationship with your husband or your children. Try kindness when you're not getting along with your neighbor. It's a lot more difficult. Difficult.
- [03:25]
John Fuller
That's Dr. Barry Corey, the president of Biola University, and he's with us today on FOCUS on THE Family. Your host is FOCUS president and author Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller. And of course, here in the US it's inauguration day and our country formally swears in a new president for office. Jim, this has been, and this will be an understatement, an extraordinarily difficult political season for all of us.
- [03:48]
Jim Daly
Well, the political division in this country has become as contentious as I've ever seen it. And in the past couple of years, and really the past couple of decades, things have continued building to this fever pitch. It's heartbreaking to see such anger on both sides of our divided country. And I know that God's heart is breaking as well. Many people now have strained relationships within their own family, family or even co workers as a result of the outcome of the elections. So I felt that it would be timely today to take a break here in Sanctity of Human Life Week and talk about the issue of of kindness. It's one of the traits, one of the fruits of the spirit that God gives us. And regardless of what's happening around us, we should still certainly show kindness to one another. I'm really looking forward to the conversation today because it will help us learn how we can better love God and love people. And to live out the scripture in Micah 6, 8, which says, he has told you, O man, what is good and what does the Lord require of you, but to do justice and to love kindness and to walk humbly with your God? And I think that's an awesome statement. So often we're missing those admonitions to project kindness. But when we show kindness to others, somehow what I've experienced is it opens their heart up.
- [05:08]
John Fuller
Yeah, it's kind of a lost art. But a great reminder today in the conversation ahead, we do have some ways for you to learn more about doing that. The links are in the episode notes. And we're coming back to a visit we had just a few years ago with Dr. Barry Corey, who's been the president of Biola University since 2000. He's written a couple of books, including Love, Kindness, and he and his wife Paula live in Southern California and have three children.
- [05:37]
Jim Daly
Dr. Corey Barry, to your friends.
- [05:40]
Dr. Barry Corey
Thank you.
- [05:41]
Jim Daly
Great to have you here at Focus.
- [05:42]
Dr. Barry Corey
It's great to be here. Jim and John, thanks for having me on the show.
- [05:45]
Jim Daly
You and I have had many discussions about this theme, about love and kindness and those virtues that sometimes get lost in the fray of battle, if we want to call it the spiritual warfare. Describe for me where you're coming from, what kindness is in that true definition and why you believe we need to re emphasize it.
- [06:07]
Dr. Barry Corey
Yeah. Well, I remember the very first time I met you, Jim, at Biola years ago. We immediately started talking about how can we be more civil in an increasingly uncivil culture. And, and those conversations continue to kind of germinate in my mind and in my heart. And as I'm looking at this rising generation of students and like, what are we modeling for them in a way that they're going to have an impact on our culture, in politics, in entertainment, in the arts, in commerce, whatever it might be. And increasingly, I believe that the antidote to all of the division and the skepticism and the anger and the polarization is to for Christians to lead the way in living lives of profound kindness. It is what you mentioned out of that Micah 6, 8 verse that we are called to we say love mercy sometimes, but it literally means to love kindness, not just to do kindness in some Nike esque kind of way. We don't do kindness. We love kindness. And that means kindness is not a random act. It's a radical life. And this book that I wrote is about how revolutionary our lives could be in our families, in our communities, in our neighborhoods, in our culture, in our politics, if we lived out this profound sense of kindness that the scriptures call us to. You know, I've been using a phrase recently about living a life with a firm center and soft edges. And too often I think Christians have had firm centers and hard edges. We've got to stand up for this and we've got to defend ourselves. And so the hard edges are what we lead with or we think that, well, if you have soft edges, that means you have a spongy center, that you don't really have any firm convictions or beliefs. But if you look at the fruit of the Spirit, kindness is right there, right in the middle. And I think it is, you know, one of the keys. It's not a gift of the Spirit. It's not optional. You have to live this way. If you are a follower of Jesus that we somehow mistake kindness for niceness.
- [08:15]
Jim Daly
What's the difference?
- [08:16]
Dr. Barry Corey
Well, I think niceness is spongy in the middle, and kindness is radical and powerful. As a matter of fact, Paul in Romans 2. 4 says it's kindness that leads to repentance. Right. He says it right after all the words about judging don't be overly judgmental. And sometimes we think judgment is what changes it. And so we're quick to judge and quick to be angry and quick to be combative because we think kindness is too soft. It's what Boy Scouts and grandmothers do. We need to stop telling our children to be nice and start telling them to be kind and then tell them the difference between the two.
- [08:53]
Jim Daly
No, I like that. In fact, that Romans 2.4 verse is something I quote often. And it's not just, you know, for us. It says, God's kindness leads one to repentance. So the question that I always ask people that are struggling with that kindness idea is why should we do something different from what God does with sinners and us included? So I'll often ask a crowd, who's been beaten into the kingdom of God? I'd like to see your hand. Who has said here, those Christians were so tough on me and were so hateful toward me that I decided to become one of them. You never find anybody like that. It's always these Christians showed me such love and such kindness. It compelled me to kind of open my heart up to the message of God. That's what happens, isn't it?
- [09:35]
Dr. Barry Corey
That's what happens. And I think we often assume that the opposite of kindness is meanness. And I don't think that's the case. I think the opposite of kindness is fear. We're afraid of the Supreme Court. We're afraid of the president, we're afraid of the immigrant. We're afraid of the Muslim. We're afraid of the gay person, whatever it might be. And so because of that fear, we put up barriers. And those barriers become obstacles for our building relationships with those who may not see eye to eye with us. And that's what scripture calls us to. To do. When it says love kindness. You reach out to those who. It's easy to be nice to the barista, right when she gets your coffee, right? It's easy to be kind when there's harmony in your family. But try kindness when there's dissension. Try kindness when you have a strained relationship with your husband or your children. Try kindness when you're not getting along with your Neighbor. It's a lot more difficult than. And what's most offensive to us in our human side sometimes is when we're kind and we're not thanked. We're kind and we're not received. But kindness is not about being thanked. Kindness is about being obedient. And sometimes you're going to get the cold shoulder or the fist or the finger or whatever it might be, and that doesn't matter.
- [10:51]
Jim Daly
Or verbal attack.
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Dr. Barry Corey
Or verbal attack.
- [10:53]
Jim Daly
Let me ask you this. You were a Rhodes scholar, which congratulations on.
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Dr. Barry Corey
Fulbright. Fulbright.
- [10:57]
Jim Daly
And that is an achievement. I mean, that is really something. While you were overseas, your dad, who was a pastor, he passed away not long ago, I think, but he came to visit you, and you had quite a discussion with him. Tell us about how he modeled kindness for you and what you saw in your own father.
- [11:14]
Dr. Barry Corey
So when I was a child, my father, who had this profound love for Jesus and lived this life of unfiltered kindness, even when people rejected him, he would do the most, in my mind, the most awkward things. He would hug the Islamic gas station attendant. He would hold hands with a cobbler, fixing his shoes at the little shoe place and pray with him. One time he had the. The audacity to hold the Jewish furniture merchant's face in his hand and say, reuben, I love you. And I wanted to crawl under the desk at that furniture shop because I was so mortified my father would actually do that. But it was years later, when I was this ponytailed researcher living in Bangladesh for a year, that he came through for a few days. And we had this walk this one morning on these fetish streets of Dhaka, the nation's capital, just crowded with rickshaws and beggars and poverty and stench. And as we were walking these streets and I was trying to figure life out, he said, there's a verse In Matthew, chapter 10, he said, that I can't get out of my mind. He said, it's right after Jesus says to his disciples, if you want to be my follower, you pick up your cross and come with me. But then he says to his disciples, whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me. Matthew 10:40. He said, I don't fully get what Jesus meant, but this I do know, that whoever God places in my path, unless I make myself receivable to them, how will they ever receive the grace of God? How will they ever receive the love of Christ? And at that moment, all those memories began cascading down of the Islamic gas station attendant and the cobbler and the Jewish furniture merchant. And I understood, you know, my father wasn't being weird, he was being receivable. And he was living that life of, you know what, whatever it takes, I'm going to make myself receivable. And to me, receivable looks like kindness. But you may not be accepted with your kindness, you may be rejected, but kindness is never forgotten. There's something powerful about kindness and the seeds of kindness that you plant, you may not see the result of those seeds for years or maybe even an eternity, but you've got to lean into kindness even when it seems offensive to people, even when you're rejected.
- [13:27]
Jim Daly
You talk also in the book about the pain caused by hypocrisy. And of course, we have that in our culture all the time. You're working as a college president at Biola. You have that rising generation with you every day as a vocational reality. What do they tell you about what they see in the older, in their parents generation, their grandparents? What do they say and what are they trying to fix with their idealism?
- [13:55]
Dr. Barry Corey
Yeah, you know, I. I take 10 or so freshman guys every year up to Yosemite, right when they're on the front end of their time at Biola and we talk about life and their challenges and their aspirations, and they are honest with me about the stuff in a very candid way, about the stuff that they've been going through and are going through. And to a certain degree, I want to be honest and vulnerable to them. I like to say I don't want to be transparent, maybe translucent, letting the light shine through, but not everything. But I do think that there's something about authenticity that this generation is looking for in leaders. They don't want the buttoned up life. They want the opened up life. And when you have the buttoned up life, that is, to them, that smells like hypocrisy. And hypocrisy is the poison of kindness. When I wrote this book, I talk a lot about authenticity in there and what hypocrisy looks like. And in order for me, what I felt in my spirit was I had to be open about my own issues in this book. And I actually leaned into being more vulnerable than I probably would have been when I started off writing this book.
- [15:12]
Jim Daly
I've got to press you a little, though, just to make it understandable. What was it? I mean, what are those Christian blind spots that we have? What did you have? If I could press you on that, and maybe I'll share a couple of mine. But what did the Lord, say to you when you saw something that wasn't lining up with his word.
- [15:31]
Dr. Barry Corey
For me, it was pride that I had been given the title of president of Biola University, one of America's largest universities. My very first day on the job, I was pulling into campus at 5:30 in the morning and I noticed that there was a security vehicle, a campus safety car following me. And I thought, this is great. You get escort service here at Biola. And then when I pulled, pulled into the spot, he came up and he said, stay in the car, Roll down the windows. And I said, are you joking? And he said, no, I'm not joking. We take California traffic laws very seriously here. And you've run a stop sign. And I said, oh, I'm sorry. He said, are you here for a conference or something? I said, no, sir, it's my first day in the job. I must have missed that. I apologize. He said, well, here on out, you take the traffic laws at Biola University seriously. I said, can I go to the office now? He said, you can go. So I went up to the office. It was about an hour later, there was a knock on the door and there's another campus safety officer. And he said, did you get pulled over this morning? I said, yeah, I'm so sorry. I ran a stop sign. And he said, well, someone was filling out the report on you of the incident when I got in. And I asked this officer, well, who did you pull over? He said, I don't know, some guy. First day on the job. But I told him, what for. So this shift supervisor opens up the website and said, does he look like him? The guy goes, yeah, he looks a lot like him. So that officer works at Home Depot now?
- [16:55]
Jim Daly
Oh, yeah, right. No, no, that's just hopefully sent him a note saying, way to do your job.
- [17:00]
Dr. Barry Corey
Everything about Home Depot was true about that story. But that was God's reminder to me, day one, that I prayed that I would begin this job with a sense of humility. And God answered that prayer. And, you know, I had taken a great deal of, you know, in my own mind that look at this job that I have, and God's reminding me that you are here not because you're good, but because you're called. And that was one of many areas in what I've written where of my own fears, my insecurities, my pride, my lack of priorities, where I put it out there in this book, because I thought kindness means you open yourself up and you allow your imperfections to be exposed because that's how you welcome others into your. That's how you make yourself receivable. It doesn't mean that people will receive you, but it's risky. Kindness, it's radical, it's hard, it's countercultural. But you are, in Paul's words, you are the aroma of Christ.
- [18:03]
Jim Daly
Yeah. Barry, in your book Love Kindness, you talk about a handful of things that are kind of the critical themes. In fact, you've touched on some of them, soft edges and what that means, a firm center. You also mentioned some other attributes. Can you touch on a couple of those that may mean the most to you?
- [18:21]
Dr. Barry Corey
Yeah. I think we have lost the gift of hospitality. It's easy to invite people into our homes, literally into our homes, who are like us. Same social, economic, family types, political party. That is easy to do. But if the kingdom of God ultimately will be every tongue and tribe and nation gathering around that great supper, then we have to reverse engineer that. What does that great supper look like around our supper table? And how are we willing to bring people to eat with us who may have, you know, backgrounds that are very different ethnically, culturally, politically, religiously? And I think this is the kind of community that God has called us to. What does kindness look like at your dining room table? The cross was the most profound kind moment, history. We think of it as bloody and rugged, but that's where God's grace took place for us. And it was flanked by two meals, you know, the Last Supper. And then after that, Jesus, you know, cooking fish for his disciples at breakfast. We have lost, I think, the ability to think about what does it mean to invite someone to our home, to our table. I mean, I've been invited to people who are. I lived in Bangladesh for a year who didn't have much money at all. But those meals were gracious because of the hospitality, not because of how fancy the meal was. It's interesting. Back in 1995, when the Republicans took over Congress, one of the things that Newt Gingrich encouraged them to do, these new Republicans, was stay in your homes, back in your communities, live there, and then just commute to Washington. And there are many that say that when that happened and the families didn't move to Washington, the engagement that those on both sides of the party had with each other at PTA meetings, in local churches, at, you know, in neighborhoods, at cookouts, it stopped happening.
- [20:21]
Jim Daly
Right.
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Dr. Barry Corey
We have stopped being in community with those who are different than we are. And I think that's. That's a travesty. And I think that that's that is one of the reasons why there's so much division in our world today.
- [20:32]
Jim Daly
Totally agree. In fact, in my friendships with Those in Washington D.C. they'll say that's one of the biggest changes since the Reagan administration. You know, the way back then that Tip O'Neill and Reagan would get together and have a meal. Tom Coburn Senator former Senator OF Oklahoma he was terrific. And he and I had many conversations about his desire to have dinner with then President Obama. You know, he would have a meal with them every couple of weeks just to touch base with them. And he said, I do that out of my Christian conviction because if we're having relationship and dialogue, I can get my points across and I can hear his heart as well. Those are great examples of how to do that. But I've got to ask you again because I want to hear it more clearly and maybe for conviction, for those that struggle with that, they really want to build the bunker and say, why would I ever interact with somebody like that or somebody who supports abortion or same sex marriage or just put the noun in there, Whatever it is they support that I disagree with, I don't want to mix with them. I'm uncomfortable. It drives me nuts. It just irritates me and agitates me. And we kind of live in a culture where media plays on that on both sides and all sides. But what should we be as Christians discerning with respect to that? The brain chemistry of that, the way they're trying to drive ratings by irritating us. How do we step back from that and say, okay, I'm not going to take the bait because I have a higher calling before God?
- [22:00]
Dr. Barry Corey
You know, I think there are some on the right and some on the left who have chosen to be deaf to conversations. And I think no matter how hard we try, we're not going to make much progress. But I think there are those on the right and those on the left who are actually willing to listen and willing to be engaged in conversation, receptive of our hospitality, because this is where learning takes place. And, you know, unless we're having these conversations, we are not making progress. We have given up dialogue for diatribe. We've been so interested in, you know, rattling our sabers that we haven't been good neighbors. And if you take God's word seriously, you know, Jesus never had a problem with associating with those who had fundamentally different worldview than he did. And he was entertaining at home. He was walking the road, he was sitting down on a side of a hill with those who disagreed deeply with the kingdom world that he was describing. And if we are not intentional about establishing these conversations again, we may get rejected. We may get our feelings hurt because someone might betray us. They may act like they're being hospitable and they might say something on a blog afterwards, but that shouldn't dissuade us from trying again. This is the antidote to so much that is wrong with our culture today. And it doesn't mean that kindness is timid and milquetoast and fluffy. It is powerful and it is radical and it can reconcile relationships and it can be the key to racial reconciliation. It can bring nations together. We just underestimate it and we think it's soft when it is revolutionary. And so I believe we have no choice but to keep trying on these conversations. And we can do so in a way that we're not compromising our stand for justice and God's truth and the integrity that the scriptures call us to. But for crying out loud, like you can't love with a bullhorn.
- [24:18]
John Fuller
Well, some really great insights and timely reminders today on Focus on the family from Dr. Barry Corey about how to show kindness to others in our culture, especially those who disagree with us.
- [24:30]
Jim Daly
Yeah, John, especially regarding how we see things politically. It's hard to do, but I want to reiterate that our goal here at Focus on the Family is to equip you with the scripture as our guide to live out the testimony that God has called us to as Christians. If anyone is offended by this or by us, let it be the gospel that offends you and not our behavior or our antagonistic words. Hopefully, in doing so, people will see something so different in us that they are compelled to lean in instead of pulling away from the gospel. So maybe ask yourself today, what can I do differently? Think about inviting someone to your home for dinner who doesn't think the way you think. Gene and I have tried to do that and we have done it, frankly. And there are other great ideas in Dr. Corey's book to move you in that direction. So I'll make that a challenge to us all and encourage you to get this book, too.
- [25:28]
John Fuller
Well, I agree it is a good challenge. And you can get your copy of the book by Dr. Corey, Love Kindness, as well as a CD of this conversation, which includes additional conversation we had with him. Just stop by the Episode Notes for the details. And if you've been touched by our work here, let us know that, please. By making a financial contribution to the ministry of Focus on the Family, we want to continue to provide you with the kinds of conversations that we've had today and you can make that donation online or when you call 800, the letter A in the word family 800-232-6459 and today when you make a generous donation of any amount to Support Focus, we'll send a copy of Love Kindness as our way of saying thank you for joining the support team.
- [26:18]
Jim Daly
And John here at the end, I want to mention that today's topic of Reaching others for Christ through Kindness is a recurring theme on my podcast which is Refocus with Jim Daly. If you enjoyed this conversation, I think you'll really enjoy my one on one discussions with some fascinating guests, Christian and non Christian, about engaging others in respectful dialogue, navigating difficult issues in the culture, and reaching unbelievers for Christ. So go listen now@refocuswithjimdaly.com yeah, it's a great podcast.
- [26:51]
John Fuller
I hope you'll listen soon and we'll have a link to the webpage as well. Well, thanks for listening today to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [27:18]
Jim Daly
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