Podcast
Follow the Rabbit
Hosted by Igor Schwarzmann, Johannes Kleske · EN
Follow the Rabbit feels like eavesdropping on a fascinating conversation between two well-read friends at a Berlin coffee shop—smart without being pretentious, critical without being cynical, and deeply engaged with contemporary culture while maintaining historical perspective. The podcast occupies a unique space between trend forecasting, cultural criticism, and philosophical inquiry, delivered with warmth, humor, and genuine enthusiasm for understanding how the world works.
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Augmentation over automation: a different way to use AI – Follow the Rabbit Podcast s04e26
Nov 2700:45:09Tap to summarizeIgor bought a Fujifilm camera. That's not the interesting part. The interesting part is what he built to help himself actually learn photography instead of letting the camera collect dust in a drawer after two months. In this episode, we explore what Igor calls the "AI companion." Not an agent that does things for you, but a system that helps you stay with the things you actually want to do. The distinction matters more than you'd think. While the AI industry obsesses over agents that book your flights and manage your calendar, there's a quieter revolution happening. People are building personalized systems that protect them from distraction and help them follow through on their own commitments.Here's the pattern we're noticing: We're surrounded by too much choice. Every product, every service, every platform has adopted the same playbook. "It's up to you!" Maximum optionality. Complete personalization. The result? Paralysis. Netflix users browse for 45 minutes and watch nothing. People buy cameras, then abandon them when the learning curve meets the cognitive load of daily decision-making.The companion approach flips the script. Instead of delegating tasks to a machine because they're "beneath you," you're delegating a piece of your own agency to help yourself stay focused on what actually matters. Igor's camera companion knows his manual, his lenses, and his goals. It patiently guides him through the technical details without judgment, without pushing too hard, and is available whenever he has a question about aperture or wants feedback on a photo.What makes this moment interesting:- The effort required to build these personalized systems has collapsed. What once took weeks of automation setup now takes a conversation and a markdown file.- These companions are shareable. Just text files you can adapt to your own context. Think of them as recipes for commitment devices.- The emergence of "companion thinking" suggests something deeper about what we actually want from AI: not replacement, but augmentation. Not efficiency, but staying power.- And here's the uncomfortable question: Are we solving a systemic problem with individual solutions? Or building the tools we need to navigate a world designed to distract us?The conversation covers various topics, including photography as practice (referencing our episode with Christy George), the unbundling of coaching, and the reasons why typical AI demos fail to align with how humans prefer to make decisions. "Book me the cheapest flight!" sounds efficient. But that's not how we function. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction: Agents vs. Companions 00:48 – Igor Got a Camera: Why Photography, Why Now? 05:49 – The Fujifilm Choice and Escaping the Phone 07:46 – Building the Companion: How It Works 10:14 – Agents vs. Companions: The Core Distinction 14:07 – Learning by Reflection: What the Companion Actually Does 18:46 – Why Does This Work? Automation vs. Augmentation 23:39 – The Choice Overload Problem 31:24 – Sharing Companions: Markdown Files as Recipes 43:25 – How to Get Started---------------You can also watch this episode on YoutubeFollow the Rabbit feels like eavesdropping on a fascinating conversation between two well-read friends at a Berlin coffee shop—smart without being pretentious, critical without being cynical, and deeply engaged with contemporary culture while maintaining historical perspective. The podcast occupies a unique space between trend forecasting, cultural criticism, and philosophical inquiry, delivered with warmth, humor, and genuine enthusiasm for understanding how the world works.Follow the Rabbit is hosted by Igor Schwarzmann & Johannes KleskeFind out more about Igor Schwarzmann Find out moire about Johannes Kleske
Transcribe →Why Organizations Are Rediscovering Systems Thinking with Helge Tennø
Oct 2200:49:18Tap to summarizeYour organization has three departments that should be collaborating. Instead, they're locked in a silent battle—one's built a fortress, another's planning a hostile takeover, and the third is caught in the middle. The manager overseeing this chaos spends all day in meetings and has no map of what's actually happening. Sound familiar? Welcome to what our guest Helge Tennø calls "the Mexican standoff"—and it's precisely why systems thinking is making a comeback.In this episode, we're joined by Helge Tennø, a designer-turned-strategist who spent seven years inside a global pharmaceutical company watching organizations fragment into competing silos. When he went back to consulting in 2024 and asked companies what they were buying, the answer was clear: "Not that old stuff." After 15 years of design thinking, customer journeys, and personas, organizations are exhausted. They've wrung out the cloth, and there's no water left. But here's the twist—nobody was asking for systems thinking by name. They just needed something that could help cross-functional teams speak the same language.Here's what we're noticing: Organizations have spent a decade breaking themselves into smaller and smaller pieces, each with their own data, their own language, their own metrics. What was supposed to increase efficiency has created a coordination nightmare. The customer used to be this unifying force at the top of the org chart, but now they've become a divider—every department owns "their" piece of the customer experience and can't talk to anyone else about it. Meanwhile, managers are responsible for orchestrating these warring factions without any map of how things actually connect.The conversation takes us through some unexpected territory:Why systems thinking has a "terrible first impression" but solves problems other tools can't touchHow a simple causal diagram can help teams externalize their tacit knowledgeThe difference between complicated (where systems thinking works) and complex (where it might not)Why 95% of AI pilots are failing—and what that has to do with not having a map of your processesThe real future of AI in organizations: not replacing coordinators, but giving workers direct access to coordination toolsChapter Markers:00:00 - Cold Open: The Corporate Mexican Standoff 01:21 - Introduction & Welcome 04:48 - What Is Systems Thinking? A Simple Definition 10:17 - Why Good Strategy Requires Good Information 14:04 - Why Now? The Comeback of Systems Thinking 19:44 - The Mexican Standoff: When Departments Go to War 23:44 - AI's Role: 95% of Pilots Fail Without a Map 29:21 - Complex vs. Complicated: The Valid Critique 37:46 - The Agency Problem: Maps Without Power to Act 39:47 - The Generalist's Moment 47:03 - Where to Start: Resources & Next Steps 48:46 - OutroLinks:Helge Tennø on LinkedInJohn Sterman's Introduction to System Dynamics (MIT)Russell Ackoff on Systems ThinkingRussell Ackoff - Systems Thinking (Clip 1)Omidyar Group Systems Practice Workbook PDFSimon Wardley on Wardley MappingSimon Wardley - Introduction to Wardley MappingDave Snowden - Cynefin FrameworkDave Snowden explaining CynefinBJ Fogg's Behavior Model---------------You can also watch this episode on YoutubeFollow the Rabbit feels like eavesdropping on a fascinating conversation between two well-read friends at a Berlin coffee shop—smart without being pretentious, critical without being cynical, and deeply engaged with contemporary culture while maintaining historical perspective. The podcast occupies a unique space between trend forecasting, cultural criticism, and philosophical inquiry, delivered with warmth, humor, and genuine enthusiasm for understanding how the world works.Follow the Rabbit is hosted by Igor Schwarzmann & Johannes KleskeFind out more about Igor Schwarzmann Find out moire about Johannes Kleske
Transcribe →The Economics of Little Treats: Introducing Aspiration Cascades
Oct 1000:38:32Tap to summarizeIf you've been on TikTok lately, you've definitely seen La Bubus. Those collectible plushies have replaced Dubai chocolate as the instant cultural reference for micro-trends. But here's the thing—La Bubus, $19 strawberries, $20 smoothies, and $300 Le Creuset pots aren't random phenomena. They're symptoms of something much bigger: what Igor calls the Aspiration Cascade.Remember when the path was clear? Get the job, buy the house, buy the car, and signal your status through big purchases. But when 50% of Gen Z still depends on their parents for monthly support, and homeownership feels like a fantasy, what happens to our aspirations? They don't disappear—they compress.In this episode, Igor introduces the Aspiration Cascade Framework—a systematic way to understand how blocked macro-aspirations (houses, cars, extended vacations) cascade down into midi-luxuries (fancy travel, designer subscriptions), then micro-luxuries (Aesop soap, fancy danishes), and finally nano-moments (TikTok scrolling, collectible dopamine hits).The framework reveals why:You'll spend €300 on a French pot but can't imagine buying a houseMorning coffee rituals involve €18 beans and precision scalesPeople collect blind box toys and document the unboxing"Little treats culture" isn't frivolous—it's how we preserve aspiration under economic pressureThis isn't about judging consumer choices. It's about understanding the systematic forces—economic barriers, attention fragmentation, social sharing imperatives—that reshape how we dream, spend, and signal who we are.Chapter Markers:00:00 Introduction: Little Treats Culture03:29 Rich in Cash Flow, Poor in Assets09:00 The Aspiration Cascades Framework12:12 Why Aspirations Compress18:31 How Brands Engineer the Cascade23:54 Dopamine Culture's Role29:47 The Four Levels Explained36:53 Closing ThoughtsLinks:“A Little Treat”: How Younger Generations are Changing Economic NormsThe Rise of Dopamine Culture - by Ted GioiaDesire, Dopamine, and the Internet - by L. M. Sacasas---------------You can also watch this episode on YoutubeFollow the Rabbit feels like eavesdropping on a fascinating conversation between two well-read friends at a Berlin coffee shop—smart without being pretentious, critical without being cynical, and deeply engaged with contemporary culture while maintaining historical perspective. The podcast occupies a unique space between trend forecasting, cultural criticism, and philosophical inquiry, delivered with warmth, humor, and genuine enthusiasm for understanding how the world works.Follow the Rabbit is hosted by Igor Schwarzmann & Johannes KleskeFind out more about Igor Schwarzmann Find out moire about Johannes Kleske
Transcribe →Soft Clubbing: How impossible conditions create new culture
Sep 2500:39:32Tap to summarizeDancing at dawn isn't rebellion. It's strategy.Igor just wanted his morning coffee. Instead, he walked into a full-blown rave at 10am, complete with turntables and wood dust, desperately clutching his toddler while navigating through impeccably dressed dancers. Welcome to soft clubbing, a trend we first identified in February that has since become delightfully bizarre.What started as quirky morning dance parties has morphed into something far more intriguing: thermal gatherings in saunas, corporate-sponsored run-and-rave combos, and coffee shops transformed into analog listening lounges with walls of vinyl and monster speakers from Singapore to Brussels.Here's what we're noticing: This isn't just about young people partying wrong. It's a masterclass in navigating impossible conditions. When traditional nightlife becomes unaffordable, when every digital interaction demands a decision, when your phone becomes a cognitive burden—you improvise. You dance at dawn because it works better with your work schedule. You steal music and play it on resurrected iPods because it's the only way to escape algorithmic control. You prioritize immediate action over systemic solutions because, quite frankly, there are limited alternatives.What we're discussing in this episode:- Why soft clubbing is simultaneously shallow Instagram content AND genuine community building- The return of music piracy isn't about broken streaming—it's about reclaiming the choice to just hit play- How vinyl walls and turntables have become the new third space aesthetic from Berlin to Singapore- Why oscillating between digital and analog isn't confusion—it's strategyEvery critique of soft clubbing—"it's just rich kids," "it's not real clubbing," "young people these days"—is exactly why it exists. When every move gets dissected, commodified, and scorned within weeks, the only rational response is to keep moving, keep experimenting, and keep refusing to commit to any single identity. As we discover, Gen Z isn't a demographic; it's a strategy.Chapter markers:00:00 - Introduction & Igor's Coffee Shop Rave 01:54 - What Is Soft Clubbing? From February Prediction to Reality 07:50 - The Many Faces: Thermal Gatherings to Corporate Run-and-Raves 09:53 - Why It Exists: Economic Reality and Lost Nightlife 17:31 - The Analog Revival: Vinyl Walls from Singapore to Brussels 26:21 - Music Piracy Returns: iPods and Escaping Algorithms 34:40 - Cognitive Overload and the Choice to Disconnect 37:03 - Gen Z as Survival Strategy, Not Demographic 39:11 - OutroLinks:- Yusuf Ntahilaja's essay "2025: The Year of 'Soft Clubbing'"---------------Follow the Rabbit feels like eavesdropping on a fascinating conversation between two well-read friends at a Berlin coffee shop—smart without being pretentious, critical without being cynical, and deeply engaged with contemporary culture while maintaining historical perspective. The podcast occupies a unique space between trend forecasting, cultural criticism, and philosophical inquiry, delivered with warmth, humor, and genuine enthusiasm for understanding how the world works.Follow the Rabbit is hosted by Igor Schwarzmann & Johannes KleskeFind out more about Igor Schwarzmann Find out moire about Johannes Kleske
Transcribe →From Mass Medicine to TikTok Therapy: The Great Health Unbundling with Cyril Maury
Aug 2100:57:04Tap to summarizeRemember when your doctor knew best? Now TikTok tells you to eat oats instead of buying Ozempic, your Apple Watch judges your sleep, and everyone's either biohacking their way to immortality or drowning in wellness anxiety. Welcome to the great unbundling of medical authority. In this episode, we're joined by Cyril Maury from Stripe Partners, who's spent 15 years studying how people actually behave around health—not what they say they do, but what they really do. Together, we trace a fascinating pendulum swing: from the 20th century's one-size-fits-all pharmaceutical production (where your 60 kg body gets the same ibuprofen dose as someone weighing 150 kg) to today's hyper-personalized health fragmentation. Here's what we're noticing: We're living through an explosion of diagnostic capabilities—we can measure everything from heart rate variability to glucose spikes—but we're stuck in what Cyril calls the “diagnostic-therapy gap.” Your sleep tracker tells you you're stressed, but it can't change your job. Your CGM shows blood sugar spikes, but it can't make you stop eating that croissant. It's like having a Ferrari dashboard in a bicycle. The conversation takes us through some unexpected territory: Why 30% of sleep tracker users actually sleep worse (hello, orthosomnia). Wearables are making a mistake by attempting to replace human senses instead of enhancing them. Cyril holds the view that the future doesn't lie in AI coaches telling you to not exercise today, but rather in conversational tools that inquire about your mood before presenting the data. And yes, we talk about RFK Jr.'s plan to get every American wearing a wearable within four years. Since recording, the picture's gotten even more interesting—his nominee for surgeon general just happens to be the co-founder of Levels, one of America's biggest CGM companies. So we're watching a classic pattern unfold: create the market through policy, then profit from the solution. It's the perfect grift dressed up as public health—mandate the metrics, monetize the anxiety, and call it prevention while you cut actual healthcare coverage. Chapter Markers: 00:00 - Introduction & Setup 01:57 - Welcome & Guest Introduction 04:40 - The Unbundling of Medical Authority 06:39 - Trust Collapse in Healthcare Institutions 08:58 - From Mass Medicine to DIY Dosing 12:51 - The Pendulum Swings: Mass Production to Personalization 15:21 - Two Tiers of Health Seekers 21:29 - Enablers and Repellers of Change 23:32 - The Diagnostic-Therapy Gap 28:09 - Wearables and Biological Age 32:31 - The Interoception Problem 33:28 - Why Igor Doesn't Track 37:34 - The Wrong Path: AI Prescriptions 41:40 - Designing for Real Life 44:37 - The Evolution of Health Tech 47:57 - RFK Jr.'s Wearables for All Campaign 52:13 - Performance vs. Reality 55:17 - The Underrated Health Intervention 56:42 - Outro Links: Stripe Partners: https://stripepartners.com/ Cyril Maury on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cyrilmaury/ Pew Research Center Trust in Institutions Survey: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/06/24/public-trust-in-government-1958-2024/ BJ Fogg's Behavior Model: https://www.behaviormodel.org/ John Oliver segment on MAHA and RFK Jr.: https://youtu.be/3lzfH86avIc?si=OR5S_QrbRBdu2VvTYou can also watch this episode on Youtube------Follow the Rabbit feels like eavesdropping on a fascinating conversation between two well-read friends at a Berlin coffee shop—smart without being pretentious, critical without being cynical, and deeply engaged with contemporary culture while maintaining historical perspective. The podcast occupies a unique space between trend forecasting, cultural criticism, and philosophical inquiry, delivered with warmth, humor, and genuine enthusiasm for understanding how the world works.Follow the Rabbit is hosted by Igor Schwarzmann & Johannes KleskeFind out more about Igor Schwarzmann Find out moire about Johannes Kleske
Transcribe →From bucket hats to AI empires: Deep-Dives on Oasis and OpenAI
Aug 100:39:21Tap to summarizeWhat connects a sea of white men in bucket hats at Oasis concerts to Sam Altman's relentless narrative-building around AGI? More than you might think.This month, we're connecting dots between two very different cultural phenomena that both reveal something fascinating about how authenticity gets manufactured—and why that matters for anyone trying to understand how culture actually moves.The Oasis Effect: When Heritage Brands Create BelongingIgor dives deep into the cultural archaeology of the Oasis reunion, but this isn't just about nostalgia. We're talking about how a band's deliberate uniform—parkas, trainers, and Stone Island anoraks—became a way to "assert visibility, articulate class identity, and push back against marginalization."The genius brand activations (Aldi rebranding to "Aldeh" in Manchester and Lidl releasing an anorak with a bottle opener and cooling pocket) weren't just opportunistic marketing. They tapped into something deeper: the hunger for cultural identifiers that create actual belonging, not just identity signaling.But here's the thing—authenticity requires effort. And in a world where you can get everything without leaving your couch, the act of showing up, physically being there, becomes a form of commitment that creates psychological investment.The AI Empire: Stories We Tell OurselvesJohannes breaks down Karen Hao's "Empire of AI," the definitive behind-the-scenes account of OpenAI that Sam Altman didn't want you to read. But beyond the corporate drama, there's a pattern here that connects to everything from effective altruism to the "China threat" narrative.It's the same playbook: create a story about the future that's so compelling—or terrifying—that it justifies anything you do in the present. Whether it's "we have to get there first" or "we're preventing AI from falling into the wrong hands," these become the fictional expectations that organize entire industries around them.The problem? As Johannes puts it, "Can you just for once ask, are we the baddies?"The Connecting TissueHere's what these seemingly unrelated phenomena share: they're both about the stories we tell ourselves about authenticity, community, and the future. Oasis created belonging through shared cultural codes that required real effort to participate in. OpenAI creates buy-in through narratives about inevitable futures that suspend disbelief about their business model.One creates genuine connection through heritage and effort. The other fosters dependency by promoting performative futures and prioritizing convenience. Both work—but they work very differently.Chapter Marks:00:00 - Introduction & July Monthly Review Setup01:30 - The Oasis Phenomenon: Bucket Hats and Cultural Identity07:28 - Fashion as Cultural Signifier12:25 - Merchandise Culture & Belonging23:06 - Empire of AI: Sam Altman's Story Machine29:08 - The Stories We Tell Ourselves35:17 - Cultural Impact vs. Critical Analysis38:40 - Closing & RecommendationsLinks mentioned:Karen Hao's "Empire of AI: Dreams and Nightmares in Sam Altman's OpenAI": https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/222725518-empire-of-aiDomus article on Oasis and clothing as cultural identity: https://www.domusweb.it/en/design/2025/07/11/oasis-anorak-lidl-ten-c-stoneisland.html---------------You can also watch this episode on YoutubeFollow the Rabbit feels like eavesdropping on a fascinating conversation between two well-read friends at a Berlin coffee shop—smart without being pretentious, critical without being cynical, and deeply engaged with contemporary culture while maintaining historical perspective. The podcast occupies a unique space between trend forecasting, cultural criticism, and philosophical inquiry, delivered with warmth, humor, and genuine enthusiasm for understanding how the world works.Follow the Rabbit is hosted by Igor Schwarzmann & Johannes KleskeFind out more about Igor Schwarzmann Find out moire about Johannes Kleske
Transcribe →Cognitive Debt: Are we mortgaging our thinking to AI with John V Willshire
Jul 900:47:57Tap to summarizeLet's say someone asks you to suggest five global markets for a product launch. You enter it into ChatGPT, receive a response within seconds, and present it during the meeting. Six months later, when it's either a massive success or spectacular failure, someone asks, “Why did we choose these markets?” And you realize... you have no idea.This is what our guest John Willshire calls “cognitive debt”—the cost of forgoing thinking to get answers quickly, creating a debt of understanding that, like technical debt in software, is meant to be repaid but often isn't.John Willshire runs Smithery, a strategic design practice in the UK, and has been thinking critically about AI since 2017. In this conversation, we explore his framework for understanding how we accumulate cognitive debt, why organizations are mandating its creation at scale, and what happens when we lose the connections between our questions and our answers.We delve into the distinctions between AI as a narrow, specific tool and the "world-eating data generalists" marketed as universal solutions. We examine why sycophantic chat interfaces make us trust statistical relationships we can't verify, especially in areas where we're weakest. And we consider what it means for agency and understanding when our thinking processes become increasingly opaque to ourselves.This isn't just about AI; it's about the risk of prioritizing answers over understanding and its effect on human capacity.Key Topics:The metaphor of cognitive debt vs. technical debtWhy AI sycophancy creates invisible knowledge gapsOrganizational mandates for AI adoption and their consequencesThe difference between assistive and replacement technologyInformation as light, not liquid — and what that changesRed Dwarf, Westworld, and 30+ years of AI cultural imaginationDesigning better relationships with thinking toolsChapters:00:01 - Introduction & Welcome John Willshire03:34 - What is Cognitive Debt? The Core Concept09:50 - AI Types & Why Text Generation is Different16:58 - AI Sycophancy: When Systems Lie to Please24:19 - Why Organizations are Mandating Cognitive Debt34:15 - Cultural Imagination vs. Technological Reality40:30 - Dependency & Agency: The Real Cost45:01 - Designing Better AI: The Path ForwardLinks:Smithery – Strategic design practice: https://smithery.com/Cognitive Debt essay – The original article that sparked this conversation: https://smithery.com/2025/05/05/cognitive-debt/John's Miro board: https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVIixZ2Bc=/?share_link_id=286253285213
Transcribe →The New Campfires: From Generation Alpha to Cultural Acupuncture
Jul 200:46:32Tap to summarizeWhen 14-year-olds design autonomous hearses, barber shops launch radio stations, and Formula 1 calls its drivers "the cast," you're witnessing the emergence of new cultural gathering points in a fragmented world.In this June monthly review, we explore three seemingly unrelated phenomena that reveal the same underlying pattern: the post-pandemic hunger for synchronized cultural experiences is creating new forms of community in unexpected places. From a science camp in Karlsruhe to laundromats in Hong Kong to Netflix's Drive to Survive, we're seeing the emergence of what we call "new campfires"—shared cultural experiences that replace the old mass media model.The episode begins with Johannes reflecting on four days facilitating a futures camp with Generation Alpha (13-15 year olds) at the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. Far from the stereotypes about teenage attention spans, these digital natives revealed sophisticated thinking about sustainability, seamless integration of AI into their creative process, and remarkable innovation when given permission to think big. The standout project? Two girls who reimagined autonomous vehicles as customizable hearses, complete with assistant robots and personalized final journeys.Igor introduces the concept of "cultural acupuncture"—small interventions that reconnect us to social patterns we didn't realize we'd lost. Through the lens of "The Revenge of the Radio Station," he explores how barbershops, laundromats, and hotels worldwide are launching micro-radio stations that create synchronized cultural experiences and function as "social objects" with shared focus, conversation catalysts, and temporal dimensions that bind communities together.The conversation concludes with an analysis of F1's transformation from sport to content empire. Liberty Media's strategy of treating Formula 1 as "not a sport but a content producer" (with drivers as "the cast") demonstrates how behind-the-scenes storytelling can revitalize entire industries. Netflix's Drive to Survive has generated $290 million for the platform and fundamentally changed how fans engage with racing—they're more interested in what drivers eat for breakfast than braking stability.Chapters:00:00 - Introduction & Generation Alpha Experience02:46 - Science Camp: Futures Thinking with 13-15 Year Olds16:50 - The Revenge of the Radio Station & Cultural Acupuncture30:00 - F1's Content Transformation: "Not a Sport but a Content Producer"44:08 - New Campfires: The Thread That Connects EverythingLinks:Igor's source on micro-radio stations in unexpected places: https://www.thechow.net/p/the-revenge-of-the-radio-stationThe Economist article on F1 The Movie and Liberty Media's content strategy: http://archive.today/E6sobScience Camps (KIT): https://www.zml.kit.edu/science-camps.phpSocial Objects concept by Jyri Engeström: https://www.zengestrom.com/blog/2005/06/speaking-on-object-centered-sociality-at-reboot-updated-with-slides.html---------------You can also watch this episode on YoutubeFollow the Rabbit feels like eavesdropping on a fascinating conversation between two well-read friends at a Berlin coffee shop—smart without being pretentious, critical without being cynical, and deeply engaged with contemporary culture while maintaining historical perspective. The podcast occupies a unique space between trend forecasting, cultural criticism, and philosophical inquiry, delivered with warmth, humor, and genuine enthusiasm for understanding how the world works.Follow the Rabbit is hosted by Igor Schwarzmann & Johannes KleskeFind out more about Igor Schwarzmann Find out moire about Johannes Kleske
Transcribe →How William Gibson's Pattern Recognition Shaped Our Approach to Cultural Research
Jun 2500:23:19Tap to summarizeThe book that taught us “cool hunting” could be a career—and why that still matters in 2025In this special episode of Follow the Rabbit, we sit down together in the same room (a rare occurrence!) to discuss the book that fundamentally shaped our approach to cultural research: William Gibson's Pattern Recognition. Published in 2003, this post-9/11 novel introduced us to the concept of professional trend-spotting through the character of Cayce Pollard, a “cool hunter” who gets paid to sense what's emerging before it hits the mainstream.Our conversation reveals how Gibson's vision of pattern recognition as cultural work became our north star long before we knew how to monetize it. From Cayce's sensitivity to cultural signals to her ethical dilemmas about "exploiting cool," the book provided both aspiration and instruction for navigating the ambiguous territory between discovery and commercialization.Key themes explored:How Gibson captured the essence of cultural research through aesthetics rather than technologyWhy Cayce Pollard remains the perfect model for cultural sensitivity in an age of data overwhelmThe enduring relevance of pre-smartphone digital culture to our current moment of “digital detox”The ethics of revealing cultural signals to brands and the tension between discovery and exploitationWhy feeling your way forward beats waiting for the data—and how we learned to trust our trained instinctsThe book's prescient understanding of online communities, fan culture, and viral contentWe explain why Pattern Recognition feels more relevant in 2025 than it did five years ago, as people seek authentic connections and alternatives to algorithm-driven culture. We also share how the book's central premise—“it's about pattern recognition”—became the tagline for our first website and remains the clearest definition of our work today.Whether you're interested in cultural research, the evolution of digital communities, or simply want to understand the philosophical foundation behind Follow the Rabbit, this episode offers insight into the mindset and methodology that drive meaningful cultural observation.Chapters:00:00 - Introduction: A Special In-Person Episode01:04 - Discovering Pattern Recognition & William Gibson04:12 - Cayce Pollard: The Original Cool Hunter05:52 - “Wait, this is a job?” – Career Inspiration07:09 - The Aspirational Goal: Just Say Yes or No08:14 - The Plot: Internet Forums & Viral Footage10:53 - Post-National Lifestyle & Working Between the Cracks11:38 - “How Do You Explain to Your Parents What You Do?”12:02 - The Ethics of Cool: Why Big End Is the Villain15:40 - Gibson's Instinct for Zeitgeist & Cultural Sensitivity18:26 - Why 2025 Feels Perfect for Rereading21:08 - Closing Thoughts & Future Book DiscussionsLinks:Pattern Recognition by William Gibson (2003): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_Recognition_(novel) Note about Pattern Recognition from Johannes' Digital Garden: https://garden.johanneskleske.com/pattern-recognitionIf you enjoyed this format and would like us to discuss other formative books, let us know. Sometimes the most important insights come from understanding the sources that shaped how we see the world.You can also watch this episode on YoutubeFollow the Rabbit feels like eavesdropping on a fascinating conversation between two well-read friends at a Berlin coffee shop—smart without being pretentious, critical without being cynical, and deeply engaged with contemporary culture while maintaining historical perspective. The podcast occupies a unique space between trend forecasting, cultural criticism, and philosophical inquiry, delivered with warmth, humor, and genuine enthusiasm for understanding how the world works.Follow the Rabbit is hosted by Igor Schwarzmann & Johannes KleskeFind out more about Igor Schwarzmann Find out moire about Johannes Kleske
Transcribe →Product-First Brands and the Art of Cultural Relevance with Mike Evans
Jun 1800:48:03Tap to summarizeIn this episode of Follow the Rabbit, Igor and Johannes welcome Mike Evans, a strategist who spent years at Red Bull Music figuring out which artists the brand should work with and how to stay connected to culture while scaling globally. Now he consults brands trying to navigate that same challenge—and he's been watching one particular phenomenon closely.We're talking about On running shoes, the Swiss brand that somehow managed to go from zero to genuinely threatening Nike's cultural dominance by doing something radical: actually focusing on the fundamentals. The result is a fantastic product, smart distribution, and an authentic connection to their core community. It sounds simple, but as Mike reveals, it's incredibly difficult to execute—especially when you start growing and the pressure mounts to optimize everything through data rather than intuition.What We ExploreWe explore how some challenger brands are achieving success by reverting to the fundamentals instead of reinventing the playbook. Through the lens of On's rise, we examineThe product-culture connection: How technical innovation becomes cultural storytelling when the story lives in the product itselfDistribution as strategy: Why On's focus on specialist running stores created credibility that rippled outwardThe flattening effect: How social media allows running shoe technology to jump from ultra-marathoners to city sidewalksCultural relevance at scale: The delicate balance between serving your core community and appealing to the massesThe Red Bull model: Mike's insights from inside one of the most culturally connected brands and what happened when they shifted focusWe dive into the cycles that seem to govern brand culture—from bundling to unbundling, from product-first to marketing-first and back again. Through examples ranging from Nike's cultural positioning to UVU's brand-first approach, we explore what happens when your 64-year-old mom starts wearing the same shoes as the coolest kids at your local run club.The Bigger PictureThis conversation reveals something important about our current cultural moment. As Igor notes, we're witnessing the death of monoculture and the rise of what he calls “permanent niche as mainstream.” The brands winning today aren't trying to be everything to everyone—they're becoming everything to someone, then letting that authentic investment ripple outward.Mike's perspective from Red Bull Music provides a fascinating case study. He describes how the brand's credibility came from genuinely investing in underground culture through initiatives like the Red Bull Music Academy—investments that didn't always make sense on spreadsheets but created the cultural foundation that made everything else possible. It serves as a reminder that in our data-driven world, we cannot measure some of the most important brand assets.Chapters:00:00 - Introduction & The Gibson Quote03:16 - Meet Mike Evans: From Red Bull to Brand Strategy05:17 - The On Phenomenon: Product-First Success11:31 - Brand Agnosticism and Technical Pursuits14:47 - The Story Lives in the Product19:21 - Cultural Flattening and Authentic Connections25:38 - Collaborations That Calibrate28:58 - Scaling Cultural Relevance: The Core Audience Question34:07 - Community-First vs. Brand-First Approaches36:24 - Cycles of Culture: From Products to Marketing and Back40:28 - Practical Advice: Data, Community, and Authentic Investment47:20 - Closing ThoughtsLinks:Mike Evans on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mwcevans/Mike's text about product-first brands: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mwcevans_its-not-surprising-to-see-both-on-and-birkenstock-activity-7330879497514233857-x6pf---------------You can also watch this episode on YoutubeFollow the Rabbit is hosted by Igor Schwarzmann & Johannes KleskeFind out more about Igor Schwarzmann Find out moire about Johannes Kleske
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