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- [00:00]
Hank Smith
Coming up in this episode on Follow
- [00:03]
Dr. Don Perry
Hip, I want to remind everyone when we read these passages about the she bearers not to superimpose our culture on these ancient cultures.
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Hank Smith
Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my not so bald headed co host, John, by the way, John, right out of Two Kings, they're mocking Elisha, saying, go up thou bald head. And I didn't think of you.
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John
Oh, I appreciate that, but I am receding. I realized I was getting older when it was taking longer and longer for me to wash my face because the forehead, just cubic inches were.
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Dr. Don Perry
That's so funny, John.
- [00:50]
Hank Smith
We are privileged to be joined today by Dr. Don Perry. Don, welcome to Follow Him.
- [00:55]
Dr. Don Perry
Thank you very much. Now I know why you invited me is because I have been Bald for over 20 years. Thank you very much.
- [01:04]
Hank Smith
No, that's beautiful. Actually, I've heard that the Lord made very few perfect heads and the rest he put hair on.
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Dr. Don Perry
That's correct. Absolutely.
- [01:12]
Hank Smith
You look fantastic, John. We spent last week with Dr. Lily Anderson talking about Elijah. Now this week we're going to talk about Elisha. What comes to mind?
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John
You see Elisha, you see a type of Christ. Not what he said, but what he did. Feeding multitudes, raising children from the dead. When you think about Jesus, don't you love that idea? A healer, one who feeds us and nourishes us. I love that his life, his actions were foreshadowing what the Savior would be like.
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Hank Smith
I love it. Don, what are you looking forward to today? Where are we going to go?
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Dr. Don Perry
First and foremost, the Hebrew Bible or the Old Testament. Is Jehovah focused? What do I mean by that? There are 6,800 attestations, or the name Jehovah or Lord in uppercase, appears 6,800 times in the Old Testament. It's astounding. I was with a group recently. They were trying to determine talks for sacrament meeting. What should we talk about for the congregation? And I said whatever you talk about, put Jesus Christ in the title. Jesus Christ and tithing, Jesus Christ and faith, Jesus Christ and temples, whatever. Put Jesus Jesus Christ first. And I propose we do that with all texts in the Old Testament, including the Elisha text. So when we talk about Elisha's miracles, they're powered by Jesus Christ or Jehovah. We're going to talk about Elisha, his name. His name is Jesus Christ. Focused. We're going to look at the word mantle in Hebrew. I don't think a lot of people Know that it has a special meaning in Hebrew.
- [03:02]
Hank Smith
Don, that is fantastic. We are so excited. This is your first time on the show, but you have been quoted many times, so we've had you here in spirit and we're grateful to have you now in person. John, there might be someone out there who doesn't know Don, but you do, so tell us all about him.
- [03:20]
John
This is an exciting bio to read. Donald W. Perry is a professor of the Hebrew Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls. Holds the Abraham O. Smoot professorship. As a BYU professor, Dr. Perry teaches students how to read and translate the Hebrew Bible, including the more difficult biblical works such as the Book of Isaiah. He's the first and only Latter Day Saint author to have written and published a grammar textbook on biblical Hebrew. Learn biblical Hebrew easier and faster. He's authored or edited more than 40 books and written more than 100 articles which have appeared in encyclopedias, journals, conference proceedings and other venues for the scholarly community. Dr. Perry treats various topics like paleography, lexical meanings, orthography, ancient scribal practices, textual affiliations. I was thinking about this last night. And corpus based examination of linguistic features. While most of his books are dedicated to the academic community, to scholars in universities and libraries, many are written for the Latter Day Saints. These include 175 temple symbols and their meanings. You gotta get that one. Angels, agents of love, light and power. I'm gonna talk about that one in a minute. Understanding Isaiah, understanding the book of Revelation, symbols and shadows unlocking a deeper understanding of the Atonement. Most significantly, Don is married to Camille, his college Sweetheart. They have six children and 11 grandchildren. He enjoys activities and outings with his family. And Hank, I just have to tell you, this book, I've got my library plastic on it because I want it to be preserved. This book about angels, I loved it so much. I wrote something to deseret book and they stuck it on the top of the back what I wrote because I seriously had a hard time putting it down. So Don, thank you for being with us. On a personal note, I emailed Don a question a couple of weeks ago about spirit world visit or something like this. And not only did I get an answer, I got this answer that was outlined with references. It was like oh my goodness, this is beautiful. I'm a big big Don Perry fan. Thank you and welcome to follow him.
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Dr. Don Perry
That was so kind of you. Thank you very much for those things that you said. I wonder if you can call my wife and tell her.
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John
Hahaha.
- [05:50]
Hank Smith
Let's start with the come Follow me manual and then Don John and I are ready to learn the title of the lesson. This week, there is a prophet in Israel. A prophet's main mission is to teach and testify of the Savior, Jesus Christ. Our record of the prophet Elisha, however, doesn't include much of his teachings or testifying. What the record does include is the miracles Elisha performed, including raising a child from the dead, feeding a multitude with just a little food, and healing a leper. So while we don't have Elisha's words about Christ, we do have Elisha's ministry and miracles which do testify of Christ. They are powerful manifestations of the Lord's life giving, nourishing and healing power. Miracles happen more often in our lives than we sometimes realize. To see them, we need to seek the faith Elisha had when he prayed on behalf of his fearful young servant. Lord, I pray thee open his eyes that he may see beautiful. All right. With that, Don, we are ready to learn.
- [06:50]
Dr. Don Perry
Thank you very much. This is a huge, huge privilege to be here to declare the Lord to speak of the first Testament of Jesus Christ, which is the Old Testament. I want to begin by telling everyone the name of Elisha. In Hebrew, it means either God is salvation or My God is salvation. I prefer the second one. Both of these are found in lexicons. My God is salvation. The El part of Elisha is a short form of Elohim. And I want everyone to know there are three appropriate ways to pronounce the name Elohim. That's a Hebrew designation. So El is short for Elohim. The I in Elisha, I want to say Elisha. That's the Hebrew way of saying it. The I is my, so Eli, my God. And then the rest of it is salvation. And the word salvation is from the same root as the name Jesus. In the Hebrew language, his name means My God of salvation. That's his name. That's the way he would have been known. Among his peers and friends and neighbors and family. We think Elisha, but others would have thought, my God is salvation when he's in primary or seminary. I'm making that part up. But in school and someone says Elisha, and he say, here, I'm here. But this is what they would have heard. My God is salvation. And I want to remind everyone that Psalm 22 begins with Eli, Eli, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? It's a very sacred name. We call it a theophoric name. That's a 50 cent word, theophoric name meaning a God, compound name. There are dozens of these names in the Hebrew Bible. In our Bible, too. I'll give you four or five examples. Elijah that starts with L and Eliyahu is Elijah. And Michael. Michael has the L at the end. Raphael, Nathanael, and there are dozens of others of these names. And they all have meaning. Just his name testifies of Jesus Christ. I love it. Love it. Now, Elisha, or in Hebrew, Elisha is also a common name in modern Hebrew Israel. I have a friend who. He and I co authored a book in Hebrew in 1998. His name is Elisha. Elisha Kimron. I've been his guest in Beersheva, and he was my guest in Provo at byu. When he came to byu, he said two things, Don, I would like to go trout fishing and I would like to see some elk. So we took a day off and we took him trout fishing on the Provo River. And he's just so formal. He's a Jewish scholar. He's a religious Jewish scholar and still a good friend. So 1998, I mean, that was several years years ago. When he showed up fishing, he wore a white shirt and a tie. Oh, no one told him this is a relaxed effort. Wear a T shirt and so on. He did catch a great trout in the Provo River. Then we took him to see a herd of elk and we kind of fudged a little bit. We told him this. We took him to a ranch of elk many miles west of Lehi. We drive there and we say, here are your elk. This is a ranch. We know it's a little fake. You wanted to see them out in the wild, but this is what you get. So anyway, it's a common name. It's a very sacred name. Elisha. I think what we'd like to do is begin with the mantle. Is that a good place to begin?
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Hank Smith
Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it.
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Dr. Don Perry
I don't know if you talked about the mantle of Elijah. There are five episodes of the mantle. Before we do, I want to tell you what the Hebrew word means. It is astounding. It opens up the whole idea of mantle. In Hebrew, the word for mantle is adarat. I don't expect people to know that, but I know that there will be some Hebrew speakers who listen to this episode. Adaret. And it occurs 12 times in the Old Testament. It comes from the verb adar, which means to be glorious, right there. That gives us some information about the mantle. To be glorious. I looked up this word in my three favorite lexicons. A lexicon Is just a very fancy term for dictionary. These are scholarly. One says dare. It means glory. Take that alone, and that's worth a lot. The mantle means glory. Another one says splendor. And the third one says majesty. I want to remind everyone that when President Dallin h. Oaks spoke February 10, 2026, within the first two or three paragraphs, he mentioned the mantle of Elijah. I want to pause and testify that our prophet and seer, President Oaks, has the mantle. Absolutely, positively. That's a witness from the spirit.
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Hank Smith
Don, I have that quote from President Oaks right here. He talked about when President Nelson was called as a prophet. He witnessed that. He said, I had sat beside this apostle in the meetings of the quorum of the 12 for 34 years. But when the mantle of the prophet settled upon President Nelson, I felt his prophetic gifts were magnified. We all have witnessed his profound leadership. Upon President Nelson's death, I experienced another meaning of the mantle. To observers, it symbolizes a transfer of priesthood authority to the person who receives that authority. It is very different and very real. Within a few minutes after learning of our president's death, I felt the heaviness of responsibility settle upon me, along with important impressions of what I was required to do now. It's beautiful. He says we need one another's prayers. I feel the positive effect of your prayers. I am thankful and I love you.
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John
I used to hear my parents say that when, over the years, watching General Conference, seeing a new president of the church. Oh, you can see the mantle. And I'm not sure back then I fully understood what that meant. So grateful that President Oaks would go into such detail about what that meant and felt like in our family history. I think it was my fifth great grandfather and grandmother were in Nauvoo when Brigham Young began to speak and suddenly started to look and talk like the prophet Joseph Smith. And they saw this mantle. I imagine that's what it is.
- [14:13]
Dr. Don Perry
Just to put it in the proper context of God. It's not the splendor of God's prophet. It's the splendor that comes from God to the prophet, always giving credit and power to. To our God. All right, five episodes. I'm going to go through some of these a little briefly. Episode one is Elijah on Mount Horeb. And remember, the context is a strong wind, an earthquake and fire. I'm quoting from First Kings 19. But the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire, a still, small voice, and it was so. And when Elijah heard it. Now here's the mantle. He wrapped his face in the mantle, and he went out and stood in the entering of the cave. That's episode number one. Episode number two is a mistranslation. In the King James version, it's 2 Kings 1:8. He was a hairy man and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said in it is Elijah the Tishbite. But instead of hairy man. That's interesting. If you look at medieval painters and paintings of Elijah, they have a big beard and a lot of hair. I'm jealous of the hair on the top of the head. Let's go to the esv, the English Standard Version or the Hebrew. I prefer the Hebrew. I'm just going to an English version so people can follow. Instead of he was a hairy man, it's he wore a garment of hair with a belt of leather about his waist. So instead of saying Elijah's hairy man, and that's a description of him, he's wearing the mantle, which is made of hair. That's episode two. Episode three is First Kings, chapter 19, verse 19. And Elijah departed thence from this other place, and he found Elisha, the son of Shaphat. Shaphat means he judged, who was plowing with 12 yoke of oxen before him. That's a mistranslation. He's plowing with two yoke. But there were six farmers total, each with two yoke of oxen. This is episode number three. And Elijah passed by him and cast his mantle upon him. So Elijah took his mantle off and took. Put it on, cast or threw or put it on Elisha. This was symbolic to all the farmers and whoever's out there. They would say, oh, look, the mantle is going to go to Elisha. He's going to be the next prophet. Then episode four is found in Second Kings, chapter two, verse eight. It says Elijah took his mantle. They're standing there at the waters of the Jordan river and they're down near the Jericho end of the Jordan River. The Jordan river is many miles long. And it says Elijah took his mantle and he wrapped it together. He rolled it up, he took the mantle and smote the waters of the Jordan River. Meaning he hit the waters, they were divided hither and thither. Then the two went over on dry ground. The Hebrew word for dry ground means it was literally dry. No mud. There's no mud there. It's not like the waters were divided and they have to slop through on the mud. It was dry ground. This is a huge miracle. Give credit to Jehovah. To our God. God is all powerful. The prophet used the mantle. That's episode four. To the Israelites. This would have called to mind Exodus 14, where it says, Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind, and made the sea dry land. And it's the same Hebrew word. And the waters were divided. So you have God's prophet, you have water, you have dry land and the division of waters. People who witnessed Elijah doing this might have thought, oh, he's got the same powers as the prophet Moses. Then this is number five. This is second kings, chapter two, verses 13 and 14. This is after Elisha now has the mantle and Elijah had ascended in the whirlwind. And the chariot of fire. We're going to talk about that next. First, let's look at this second Kings 2, 13, 14. Elisha took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, From Elijah and went back. He's retracing his steps. He stood at the bank of the Jordan and he took the mantle of Elijah. Elisha now has it. He smote the waters. Then he says this. Where is the Lord God of Elohim? Lord God, here is Jehovah. Elohim in the Hebrew. Where is the Lord God of Elijah? He did this in front of an audience. And when he had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither. And then Elisha went back over. He did the same miracle with the mantle, but going the opposite direction. That's number five. John, I'm thankful that you brought up the idea that Elisha was a type and shadow of Jesus Christ. You want to look at the chariot of fire? I want to look at both the Old Testament chariot of fire. Then some references to the chariot of fire in our dispensation. First, I want to point out the word for chariot is merkavah. We're going to talk about chariots for a minute, but I wanted to put this in the context of different Jewish traditions. This is very powerful. Merkavah, or chariot mysticism, is very old. It's focused on Ezekiel chapter one, which is a fascinating chapter, but it's hard to read. It has a lot of symbolism in it. It does not mention a chariot. Ezekiel chapter one. But it speaks of or refers to a four wheeled vehicle. Not a four wheel drive, but a four wheeled vehicle driven by living creatures. Jewish mysticism. They focus on heavenly ascents ascending to heaven. They want to visit the heavenly palaces there and to reach God's throne. This is my opinion. I cannot back this up. But I have studied Jewish mysticism with a man named Joseph Dan. He passed away recently in 2022. He was a scholar of Jewish mysticism. He's an author of some 60 books. He's a top scholar. Now, here's my opinion. Jewish mysticism, for the most part, started after the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem. A lot of us think that mystics desire to go up into heaven, have a vision, and to reach God's throne. That's what the temple does. In so many words. The temple gives us this great knowledge and great power of how to approach God in the celestial kingdom. And that's a goal of Jewish mystics.
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John
So the chariot mysticism, the chariot is what is going to carry you back to the presence of God, which is what all of our temples are about, how we get back to God on God's terms, not on our own terms, but on God's terms.
- [22:26]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes. And Ezekiel 1 talks about God on this four wheeled vehicle. It's the powerful vision that Ezekiel had of God in heaven through a celestial vehicle like a chariot. The whole idea of chariot mysticism is based on Ezekiel 1. It's very powerful. Let's please read Second Kings, chapter 2, verses 11 and 12. And it came to pass, by the way, that's a Hebraism. There are 30 Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon, 30 categories. And one of those is. And it came to pass. A lot of people aren't aware of that. And it came to pass is a Hebrew structure. That's one of 30 categories in the Book of Mormon. And it came to pass as they still went on. This is Elijah and Elisha and talked. Oh, I wish I knew what they were talking about. That behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire imparted them asunder. I'm going to pause here for a second. Meaning the chariot separated Elijah and Elisha. It parted them. Some translations say it separated them. It separated Elijah. Elijah's on one side and Elisha. There's some important symbolism there. Elijah is going to be separated from you, Elisha. You're the prophet, you're the successor. Elijah went up, and I really want to emphasize he went up in the verb in Hebrew, because we're going to see this in. When we look at the two she bearers, the same verb. Where the young men say, go up, bald head, go up. It's the same verb. This is important to understand this. So Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven, and Elisha saw it. So he's a witness and he cried. To cry. It doesn't mean he's weeping, he's shouting. He cried out, my father, my father. This is symbolic. Elijah was not his dad. My father, my father. The chariot of Israel. Elisha is adding to our knowledge of what the chariot is. In the first verse, it doesn't say it's the chariot of Israel, but now he says, the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof. The first verse doesn't say there were horsemen. And here it's plural. And the horsemen thereof. And its horsemen. It's not Elijah. I don't know if he's running the chariot, if he's got the reins, but there are horsemen there. Then it says, and he. Elisha saw him no more, and he took hold of his own clothes and he rent them in pieces. Means he tore them. This is Elijah and the Whirlwind, where it says, my father, my father. I know. I'm jumping forward to 2 Kings 13, 14. Elisha was fallen sick of the sickness whereof he died. He died of a sickness. And Joash, the king of Israel came down unto him and wept over his face and said, now notice what the king of Israel is saying. He's saying the same thing that Elisha said. He says, O my father. He throws in the evocative the O, O, my father, my father. The chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof. That became an important phrase to the ancient Israelites, I think, at least to the king. He's saying the same thing that Elisha said.
- [26:11]
John
The phrase, my father, my father. He's a father to him, a mentor, not necessarily a blood relative. But it became oh, captain, my captain type of a thing.
- [26:24]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes. Not a bloodline, but an expression of great respect and love.
- [26:30]
Hank Smith
Am I reaching too far here? That Joash. That Elisha might have been picked up the same way Elijah was and that we don't get a big description of it, or is it just a saying that was important to them?
- [26:45]
Dr. Don Perry
That's an excellent question, and I'm thankful that you asked. I'm going to give a statement in a few moments. And where someone in our dispensation sees a chariot and he says, the chariot of Elisha, you might be onto something. We don't know if the person who said that the chariot of Elisha is slipping, like I've done two or three times, and I say, Elijah or Elisha, they sound similar. Or if you're onto something, I don't know. I wanted to point out two scriptural passages where it speaks of the Lord's chariots In this context one is in Isaiah 66:15. It says, for behold, the Lord will come with fire. So here's the reference to fire with his chariots. Here's reference to chariots like a whirlwind. So here's a reference to whirlwind. Now, the Hebrew word for whirlwind here is different than the one we saw in Second Kings. Then it says, to render his anger with fury and his rebuke with flames of fire. That's one reference. A second is found in Psalm 68:17. The ESV is a better translation than the KJV. The ESV here fits better with the Hebrew. So I'm going to read that one. The chariots of God are twice 10,000. And that means there are 20,000 chariots of God. Then it says thousands upon thousands. The Lord is among them. Whatever these chariots are, he's among them. Then it says, Sinai, which is a mountain, is now in the sanctuary. That doesn't make any sense. Sinai is now in the sanctuary. As you all know, I teach Hebrew Bible BYU so I'm going to render what I think the translation reads here for the last phrase instead of Sinai is now in the sanctuary. It's like this. Sinai in the sanctuary. Remember Sinai. One of the earliest papers I ever wrote was Sinai is a temple. This connects it to Sinai and the sanctuary. That's as an exclamation, Sinai. And everyone think back about Sinai, the
- [29:18]
Hank Smith
temple, the experience with God. There it is in here.
- [29:22]
Dr. Don Perry
I love it. I'm going to jump to our dispensation. I've got three or four accounts. I'm going to try to keep them down to three or four. At some point I want to write a paper on these. The first one is a remarkable letter. It's fairly unknown. It's found in the Joseph Smith papers. It's Joseph Smith's letter to the presidency at Kirtland. It dates March 29, 1838. So you can find this on the Joseph Smith Papers. Joseph writes, I would just say to brother Marx, we're speaking of William Marx, that I saw in a vision while on the road that whereas he, brother Marx was closely pursued by innumerable concourse of enemies. And as they press upon him hard as they were about to devour him, and had seemingly obtained some degree of advantage over him, I'm going to rephrase this. Brother Marx is being pursued by a huge concourse of enemies. And they're pressing him hard and they're almost ready to devour him. Now back to the quote. But about this Time a chariot of fire came, and near the place. And the angel of the Lord put forth his hand unto brother Marks and said unto him, thou art my son. Come here. End of quote. And immediately he was caught up in the chariot and rode away triumphantly out of their midst. Wow. Is that a good one?
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Hank Smith
Wow.
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Dr. Don Perry
You don't hear this one very much.
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Hank Smith
Yeah, not at all.
- [31:07]
Dr. Don Perry
Here's the next one. This is January 22, 1836. It happened to be a Friday. This is also in the Joseph Smith papers then. And then the N is struck out. The 12 then proceeded to anoint and bless the presidency of the Seventy. Here's the sacred setting as anointing. And the 12 are anointing and blessing the presidency of the 70 and seal upon their heads power and authority to anoint their brethren. Brethren, the heavens were opened upon elder Sylvester Smith. And he, leaping up, exclaimed, the horsemen of Israel and the chariots thereof. I want to remind everyone of the astoundingly powerful hymn called the Spirit of God. How blessed the day when the lamb and the lion shall lie down together without any ire. And Ephraim be crowned with his blessing in Zion as Jesus descends with his chariots of fire. And then this powerful will sing and will shout with his armies of heaven, hosanna. Hebrew hosanna to God and the Lamb. I want everyone to remember when the hosanna shout was sung at the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple under the direction of President Wilford Woodruff. The next day after the dedication, President Wilford Woodruff said, there were armies of heaven there. When we shouted hosanna, they joined in and they shouted with us. The next one is President Joseph Smith. It's found in the history of the church. And this will apply to everyone who loves our temples and who goes to our temples. Elder Roger Orton saw a mighty angel riding upon a horse of fire. No mention of chariot here, but we're mentioning a horse of fire and a mighty angel. Not any old angel. A mighty one with a flaming sword in his hand, followed by five others. Encircle the house, the Kirtland Temple, and protect the saints. Note this, everyone. Protect the saints. Even the Lord's anointed those who attend the temple from the power of Satan and a host of evil spirits which were striving to disturb the saints. I love that passage. Six horses, six angels with six flaming swords going around encircling the Kirtland Temple, keeping Satan and his host out so the saints can worship. I want to tell you about Harrison Burgess. He attended the dedication of The Kirtland Temple. It's March 30, 1836. Here's what he recorded. The Spirit of God rested upon me in mighty power. I beheld the prophet Joseph and Hyrum Smith and Roger Orton enveloped in the light. Joseph exclaimed aloud, I behold the Savior, the Son of God. Hyrum said, I behold the angels of heaven. Brother Orton exclaimed, I behold the chariots of Israel. Here's the reference to chariots. All who were in the room felt the power of God to that degree that many prophesied. And the power of God was made manifest, the remembrance of which will remain with me while I live upon the earth. One more that I'm going to share. This is an individual named Benjamin Brown. He was born in 1794. In a letter to his wife. I'm going to read the quote. He doesn't use complete sentences. I'm still quoting from Stephen Harper. Some have seen the heavens opened and seen the Savior. Others have seen angels on the four corners of the house of the Lord with drawn swords and also stood thick on the ridge. Elisha with his chariot of fire. Elisha, Peter, James and John in the highway cast up the 10 tribes, returning in chariots as far as the eye could extend. Some saw the redemption of Zion. April 29th. An angel was seen over the elders. The heavens was opened. Two saw the Savior. Some saw chariots. End of quote.
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Hank Smith
This is fantastic.
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John
Isn't it interesting, Hank and Don, that these visions are with Old Testament metaphors? I know that one of our favorite things we've been talking about this year is how much of the restoration is not just New Testament church, but Old Testament priesthood and power. And here, symbols, chariots all over the place.
- [36:29]
Dr. Don Perry
And the Doctrine and Covenants includes scores of references to the Old Testament and Old Testament prophets and individuals. Next Episode Are we ready?
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Hank Smith
Let's do it.
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Dr. Don Perry
Everyone Please turn to 2 Kings 2, chapter 2, verses 19 through 22. This one is where Elisha heals the poisonous waters and it sets us up for the next episode about the bears. Let's read this one first. Just three or four verses. Verse 19. And the men of the city said unto Elisha, behold, I pray thee. Now, the Hebrew term for I pray thee literally means please. So some translations say, behold, please. I pray thee is a King James ism. And I love it because it's so polite. I pray thee so behold, please. The situation of this city is pleasant. As my Lord seeth. Lord is lowercase. We're not speaking of God as my Lord seeth, but the water Is not. Now, this is King James. In the Hebrew, it's the water is evil. It's raim, waters. But waters in Hebrew is plural. In English, we can have the plural, but we do have the collective plural, water. Or we can say waters. But in Hebrew it's waters. Raim, waters, Evil waters. If you say, how can they be evil? Well, let's read on. Evil can also be bad. Then they say, and the ground barren. This is so fascinating. There's what we call a Hebrew participle here, meshachelet. That literally means, and I'm citing from one of my dictionaries, cause an abortion. When we say the ground barren, we should be saying the ground and the waters cause an abortion or to make childless. This is what the Hebrew says. Apparently these waters are so bad and they're calling them evil waters. Apparently they're so bad that they're causing women to lose their fetus. People can read up on this. Read the scholarship. Verse 20. And he said, elisha, bring me a new cruise or a bowl and put salt in it. This is really an unusual miracle because we're going to heal waters by putting salt in them. Put salt therein. And they brought it to him. Verse 21. And he went forth into the spring of waters and cast the salt in there and said, notice this formula. Koa Mar Adonai. Thus saith the Lord. Here again, this is a Lord centered text. This is the Lord's power. Through his prophet, I have healed these waters. There shall not be from thence any more death or meshachelet. It says barren land in the King James. But it's waters that cause an abortion. Verse 22. So the waters were healed unto this day. Whoever's writing this text is saying, even to this day, according to the saying of Elisha, which he spoke. Now, before we discuss this a little more, I want everyone to know I visited this spring many times. It's in Jericho. It's across the street from the till. I mean, 40ft. It is still flowing after the 2,800 years when Elisha had uttered this. It's sweet, wonderful water. I have tasted it. I had drunk from it. And this is a testimony of the power of God's prophet.
- [40:37]
John
So the Tell is an artificial hill that's built on the city?
- [40:42]
Dr. Don Perry
Yeah, yeah. Ancient Jericho is right across the street. There's actually a paved street between the ancient Tell and this spring of waters. And the spring of waters. You can go there and taste it. And I recommend everyone do it. They don't cause a problem. They're no longer evil. Contrast this to the living waters, Jehovah, the living waters that brings life.
- [41:11]
Hank Smith
Well, I take my groups to Jericho for lunch, so I'll just say there's a drink with the meal. We're just going to go over across
- [41:17]
Dr. Don Perry
the street and take a drink.
- [41:20]
Hank Smith
We're going to bring the scriptures to life
- [41:24]
Dr. Don Perry
so you don't have to get in the water and cup your hands. You can just drink from the water fountain if you want. If you're thirsty, throw that in. Tell your groups this is a bonus.
- [41:35]
Hank Smith
There's probably a gift shop close too.
- [41:38]
John
Yeah, always a gift shop.
- [41:41]
Dr. Don Perry
Always a gift shop. Yep.
- [41:43]
John
Can you comment on the salt? Why salt? Is it a symbol?
- [41:48]
Dr. Don Perry
It's a symbol. Salt is a preservative. We're preserving waters. And here it's an opposite. Throw salt in water and now it's good to drink. No, it makes it more of a miracle.
- [42:03]
John
Try this on the Great Salt Lake. It just gets saltier. We don't need that.
- [42:07]
Dr. Don Perry
Yeah, try it on this Great Salt Lake. Yep.
- [42:10]
John
So it's a symbol of the covenant. It's a preservative, but whatever it is, it healed the water sweet. And it reminds me of. Aren't we looking forward to the waters of the Dead Sea being healed?
- [42:22]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes. Ezekiel 47. Exactly.
- [42:26]
Hank Smith
It's kind of a paradox, isn't it? You lose your life, you'll gain it. Put salt in the water, you'll be able to drink it.
- [42:33]
Dr. Don Perry
And remember, Christ taught year the salt. You have that image too, to remind everyone. In Exodus 15, which is the Song of the Sea, it says that the Israelites found no water. They went three days in the wilderness. They came to Marah. This is Exodus 15. Marah. They could not drink the waters of Marah, for they were bitter. Therefore they call it Marah. Marah in Hebrew means bitter. And the people murmured against Moses. What shall we drink? He prayed to the Lord. The Lord showed him a tree. He cast the tree into the waters, and the waters were made sweet. Here you have a later prophet, Elisha, somewhat following the pattern of Moses of
- [43:23]
John
healing bad waters and turning them into living water, which is a great symbol. I like that. Verse 23 mentions that he was going up. By the way, I really appreciate the shout out there.
- [43:37]
Dr. Don Perry
That's in my translation too. I put your name there. Wherever I can.
- [43:44]
John
A true friend. Thank you. You. Can you tell me, I've never asked this question before, but is there a Hebrew equivalent of that phrase going up, by the way?
- [43:56]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes, there is. I can tell you exactly what it says in Hebrew, if you want.
- [44:00]
John
I think I looked it up once and it was something like 142 times. By the way. Appears in the standard works.
- [44:08]
Dr. Don Perry
Yeah, it never says going up by dawn or by Perry or something. The Hebrew is the preposition bet, which is combined with the definite article, the. Then the word Derek. Derek means way or path. In the path or in the way. Translated by the way. So that's the literal Hebrew.
- [44:31]
Hank Smith
John. That's what your dad used to call you.
- [44:33]
John
That's my joke. I used to. I thought for years my name was in the way because my dad kept saying, you're in the way when I followed him around.
- [44:41]
Hank Smith
Don, I'm excited for you to talk about this next story. Go up, thou bald head. Go up, thou bald head.
- [44:48]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes.
- [44:49]
John
The reaction to it is like. I mean, I've had people object to the whole Old Testament because of this. Stories like this. How can that be? We need some backstory on this one.
- [45:02]
Dr. Don Perry
I have a lot of information on this story. We'll read it and then we'll discuss it. I do want to say it's one of my favorite passages. It has some deep, powerful meanings in it. So let's read 2 Kings 2. Start with verse 23. And he, Elisha, went up from thence unto Bethel. Remember, they were down by Jericho, which is the lowest city on earth. Jericho is just north of the Dead Sea, which is the lowest place on earth. Much lower than Death Valley in California. He went up from thence unto Bethel. It doesn't say whether he made it to Bethel or not, but Bethel is all the way uphill in Bethel. It's a sacred, sacred place. Bethel in Hebrew means house of God. There's an L name. See the L there. Beth El, another theophoric name. He went up from thence unto Bethel. And as he was going up, by the way, there came forth little children. Clarify, they're not. Little in Hebrew is nerim ketanim, which is young men. So These are not 8 year olds or 6 year olds. They came out of the city. Which city? Probably Jericho. And I'll tell you why in a minute. Elisha is traveling to Bethel, but he's just getting started. And they mocked him. I looked up the word in Hebrew. It does mean mock. They're mocking him. And they said unto him, go up. Now, remember when we talked about Elijah going up in Chariot of Fire? This is the same Hebrew verb, go up. What they're doing. Here's the overall story. These youth are challenging God's prophet. They challenge him to go Up. Not go up to Bethel, not get out of town, but go up like Elijah. We want to see a manifestation. We want to see if you really have the same prophetic powers as Elijah. Go up. And when they say bald head, it could mean that he's literally bald. But it could have this sense. I'm going to give you two meanings here. One is very ancient. It's from the Jewish Talmud. It's a commentary on this. And it says, they said to him, go up away from here, for you have made the place bald. Bald for us, meaning we're out of work. I'm going to quote they the young men had previously earned their living by providing the city of Jericho with water. Remember, the spring has waters that cause death. They had been hauling water from the Jordan river to Jericho. Then the Talmud says, elisha sweetened the city's own water. He healed the waters, and he rendered their services unnecessary. That means he put them out of work. They were water carriers from the Jordan river to Jericho to give the inhabitants of Jericho water. But Elisha the prophet comes to town, he heals the waters, and now they're out of work. That's one. Meaning that you've made the place bald for us. When it says go up bald, they're saying, you've made the place bald for us. That's the Talmud. It's Sotah 46b, colon 20. The Talmud. The other one I like a little better. When it says, go up thou bald head. Go up thou bald head. It's like they're not saying it twice. They might be chanting this for several minutes. They might be following him. When it says bald head again, does that mean he's bald? Or is there a deeper meaning? Does it mean you that he literally had the mantle? We know he had the mantle, but are they saying you really don't have the authority? The mantle. The mantle, remember, was a hairy mantle. They're challenging his prophethood. You're not the prophet like Elijah. Prove that you're the prophet. Go up in a chariot of fire, thou that lacks the authority of the mantle. Those are two possibilities. A lot of us don't think that they're making fun of his bald head. And he turned back and looked on them and cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then it says, there came forth two she bearers. Out of the wood, out of the forest and tare, 40 and two children. Now, where it says little children in verse 23, this is a different word for children. This really does mean children. And I'll comment On that in just a minute. So 40 and two children of them. And he went from thence to Mount Carmel, which is near the coast. From thence he returned to Samaria. Why does the text first say young men and then it says children? I'm going to look at that Talmudic reference. The Talmud is a Jewish text at dates. We don't know the exact dates, but 3rd, 4th, 5th century A.D. it says the sages taught, meaning the rabbinic authorities. They were lads. That means young men. That is already of age. But they disgrace themselves like young children. Whoever wrote this text first said they're young men, then he says children because they disgrace themselves for mocking the prophet. Does that kind of make sense?
- [51:03]
Hank Smith
Yeah.
- [51:04]
John
Yeah. Okay, so two things. First, the go up was not just go up the mountainside, not just go up from Jericho. It was go up like Elijah did. Show us a sign.
- [51:15]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes, yes.
- [51:16]
John
Prove that you are a prophet. It.
- [51:18]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes.
- [51:19]
John
And the. You've made the land bald in one of those. Not necessarily mocking the guy's hair or lack thereof. Right?
- [51:29]
Dr. Don Perry
Yep.
- [51:29]
John
Okay.
- [51:31]
Hank Smith
And then. And then they were acting like children.
- [51:35]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes. Yes.
- [51:36]
Hank Smith
40 and two men who acted like children.
- [51:40]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes. I love it. That was so well said. Couple of other things on this account. One is scholars think these are what kind of bears? Probably Syrian brown bear. Not to be compared with the brown bears from Alaska. Syrian brown bear. Did they have bears in antiquity? Yes. And the last sighting, according to one source of bears in the holy land, was 1215 A.D. 1215. Then they disappeared. Remember that there's a bear. In one of the King David narratives, Amos the Prophet talks about a bear and a lion and a snake. These are all items of interest regarding bears. Now, why two she bears? She bears protect their cubs. We can imagine. This is not stated in the text, that these mockers, maybe they came across some cubs. And then as part of the curse of the Lord, it wasn't Elisha. Elisha said, I curse you. Let she bears come and eat you. Or whatever. Elisha cursed them in the name of the Lord. And then the Lord, Lord decided, yeah, the Lord's in charge. And the two she bears came out of the forest probably to protect some cubs.
- [53:12]
John
When it says in verse 25, he went from thence to Mount Carmel. From thence he returned to Samaria. These are journeys of weeks, journeys of days, of days.
- [53:23]
Hank Smith
That's a long ways. I've been to all those places. It's a pretty long ways to walk from Jericho to Carmel.
- [53:28]
Dr. Don Perry
I have too. So, yeah, we're talking days to get to Mount Carmel. Then he would have come back to Samaria. Do you both know the etymology of Samaria? This is going to be a little joke, but I love it. When Abraham came to the promised land and he looked around and he stood on a hillside, and he looked to the north and south in the cardinal directions and saw how beautiful it was, and he said, some area.
- [53:58]
John
Boy, that's some area. Brigham said, this is the place. Abraham said, this is some area.
- [54:06]
Dr. Don Perry
Just thought you'd want to know where that Hebrew word came from.
- [54:11]
Hank Smith
This is the kind of fun we like to have here on Follow Him.
- [54:13]
Dr. Don Perry
This is great. Before we leave this conversation, I want to cite from Leviticus 26, 21, and 22, if ye walk contrary unto me, Jehovah, and will not hearken to me, I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. And then notice this, I will also send wild beasts among you which shall rob you of your children. We think that these young men were probably from the tribes of Israel. They were in Jericho at this time. We don't think they were foreigners. This fulfilled the words of the Lord through Moses, I will send wild beasts among you which shall rob you of your children. And some of the children died.
- [55:07]
John
Wow. Does that help a lot with the idea of bears tearing 42 children apart. Gives a lot of context. Yeah.
- [55:16]
Hank Smith
Don't go up against the Lord's anointed. This matters to him.
- [55:20]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes.
- [55:20]
John
Am I okay, Don, in saying that's sign seeking to say go up.
- [55:26]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes. That's the way I would view that they were seeking a sign and seeking proof that Elisha was the successor of Elijah, not some guy that's really upset about having a bald head.
- [55:44]
Hank Smith
Interesting. These men acted like children going against the prophet.
- [55:49]
John
Jesus was pretty hard on people seeking a sign in the New Testament, the house of Israel.
- [55:55]
Hank Smith
Very likely. It sounds like from Leviticus, you walk contrary unto me. You will not hearken unto me.
- [56:00]
John
Me, the old send wild beasts among you. I gotta write that footnote in there. That sounds unpleasant.
- [56:07]
Hank Smith
Which shall rob you of your children or these men who act like children? Wow, Don, the way you said, look, Elijah didn't choose this consequence. This was the Lord.
- [56:19]
Dr. Don Perry
That's an important point right there. It's one thing if the prophet says, I curse you in the name of the Lord and let animals get you, or whatever. The prophets usually leave the judgment up to the Lord, the category and the amount and so on.
- [56:37]
Hank Smith
Don, we've had you here for quite a while. We've only looked at one chapter, and it has been an Incredible chapter, by the way. I have nowhere else to write. I literally have filled up every spot on 2 Kings 2. Can we move on to chapter 3?
- [56:50]
Dr. Don Perry
Chapter 3 has some fascinating, powerful passages, truths in it. Let's look at Elisha's role in the three Kings that battle the king of Moab. What a fascinating culture. I want to remind everyone when we read these passages about the she bearers, not to superimpose our culture on these ancient cultures. They were far different. Their understanding was different. The people, places, times, clothing, food, everything was different. There were three kings. The king of Israel and the king of Judah, and the king of Edom. They went forth to battle against the fourth king, the king of Moab. The three kings went out. We're in chapter three of two Kings. And they marched for seven days. In the Hebrew, it sounds like they're wandering around, maybe without a direct plan. But they didn't have sufficient water for their soldiers and animals. Start with verse 11. Jeho Shaphat. Jehovah. That means Jehovah has judged his name. There are a thousand names in the Old Testament, and most of them have meanings. Jehoshaphat, Jehovah has judged. That's what his Name means. Verse 11. Remember, he was the king of Judah. Here's this famous quote. Is there not here a prophet of the Lord that we may inquire of the Lord by him? Now, both times it says Lord, the underlying root is Jehovah. I know. If someone says, well, wait a second, that's not exactly what the Hebrew is. The Hebrew is Yod, heh, vav. Hey, I get that. That's an ineffable name. We don't say that name out of respect to our friends who do not pronounce it. It's just so powerful. Anyway, where it says Lord in uppercase, there are 6,800 of these in the Hebrew Bible. This is Jehovah and Jehovah is Jesus Christ. So 6,800 of these in the Hebrew Bible, the Hebrew Bible is indeed Jesus Christ focused in the name alone. Is there not here a prophet of the Lord that we may inquire of the Lord by him? Using the prophet as a mediator. And one of the king of Israel's servants answered and said, here is Elisha, the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah. That meant Elijah was mentoring him. Verse 12. And Jehoshaphat said, the word of the Lord is with him. This is good for a king to recognize that the word of the Lord is with one of the Lord's prophets, the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him. If you can imagine these three kings going to your place and knocking on the door and hi, may we have a few words with you? You. What should we do when we battle against Moab? What is the Lord's word concerning this? Verse 15. They're standing there. They probably have their generals and their visors and other officers with them. Maybe their bodyguards. Some of them had bodyguards, the kings. We know they're waiting for Elisha to speak. And instead verse 15 now bring me a minstrel. Minstrel is Old English for a musician. And it came to pass when the minstrel, the musician played that the hand of the Lord came upon him. Elisha. We have these powerful leaders from three countries standing there waiting to hear from God's prophet. And he says, call in a musician. And it might have taken a few minutes to get a musician or longer. And they're probably saying, we don't care about music. We want help winning this battle. Notice the result of the musician that the hand of the Lord came upon. Elisha. He was calling for a musician. In my opinion and in my reading the text to prepare him to prophesy. I want to testify to everyone. Proper, appropriate, God inspired music does bring out the best in us. I have some go to music I listen to. For example, if you hi to Kolob. That one is Go to music. One of my dear friends, a young woman of about 40, passed away, maybe 42 years old. We all suffered. She had children and a wonderful husband, and they were friends for years. Why is she suffering? Why did she pass away? Camille and I went to her funeral. The hymn that she had chosen ahead of time for all of us to sing. As if you could hi to Kolob. Oh, so powerful in the setting of a funeral and in any setting.
- [62:31]
Hank Smith
Thanks, Don. The music invites revelation. It sounds like in this story.
- [62:36]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes.
- [62:37]
John
I have an elder Richard G. Scott quotation. Good music, especially sacred music, makes spiritual things more understandable. It prepares emotions for response to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. For me, my go to is relatively new, but I just love this hymn as it is well with my soul.
- [63:00]
Dr. Don Perry
Love it.
- [63:00]
John
I like that they invited a minstrel. That's so interesting. I think our guests that are going to speak to us about the Psalms will like that.
- [63:09]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes, the Psalms were ancient hymns. There are additional psalms in the Dead Sea Scrolls that are not found in our Psalter. Continuing. We're in the same text now. If you go to verse 16. And he, Elisha, said, thus saith the Lord. This is a very powerful revelatory formula. Thus saith the Lord, Thus saith Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ. Make this valley full of ditches. A little note on the word make in the Hebrew. It uses a very old form. I don't want to confuse anyone with grammar, but it's called the infinitive absolute. It's an old form of biblical Hebrew. They quit using it in the Jewish Mishnah, 200 BC to 200 AD. They don't use it in modern Hebrew. Here it serves as an imperative. You can use Hebrew to help date text. Right now I'm studying Isaiah to help date Isaiah because some people think the last half of Isaiah was written later. Not so. You use the Hebrew anyway literally when he says, make this valley full of ditches. Now notice he says this valley. It's as if Elisha is now present with them. This valley. If he was in Samaria or Mount Carmel, he wouldn't have said this valley, because that would be a different valley. So I think Elisha's there. When he says full of ditches. Ditches gives the wrong idea. I am from Idaho, and they do use ditches for farming and irrigation, but here it's pools. When it says valley, it should read wadi. That's not Hebrew, but it's a word meaning it has water during the rainy season in it. So October through March or November through February, Literally, it's make this wadi full of pools. Pools of water. So I want to point this out. Then go to verse 17. For thus saith the Lord. Again, he's speaking by the power of the Lord. Ye shall not see wind which will bring clouds, neither shall ye see rain. Yet the valley will be filled with water, and there will be so much water that ye may drink both ye and your cattle and your beasts. And this is but a light thing in the sight of the Lord, meaning an easy thing. This is easy for him to do. Notice how he concludes Elisha. He, the Lord will deliver the Moabites into your hand. Not only do prophets give us the word of the Lord, but we always get a bonus from prophets. Do this and this, you'll get the water. And by the way, you're going to win the battle. The Lord will deliver the Moabites also into your hand. What a great bonus from this prophet of God. Now I have a postscript, an important postscript. We have some examples of individuals in the Book of Mormon who go to God's prophet to seek Counsel. These three kings sought counsel from God's prophet in ancient Israel. In Alma 16 you have Chief Captain Zoram, verse 5. Knowing that Alma was the high priest over the church, and having heard that he had the spirit of prophecy, he consults with Alma concerning the war. What should we do? What should we do? And what should we do? This is Alma 16, 6, 8. The second example is in Moroni. And now we're in Alma 43, 23, 24. Moroni also knowing of the prophecies of Alma, sent certain men unto him, desiring him that he should inquire of the Lord whither the armies of the Nephites should go to defend themselves against enemy. Here we have three examples in Scripture of leaders who have gone to the Lord's prophet to seek counsel. Oh, how I wish that since the times of the restoration and Joseph Smith, the prophet and seer, that emperors, kings, queens, presidents, prime ministers, whoever leads, would consult with God's prophet regarding war. What should we do and counsel with the Lord through the prophet? What would the world be like if all emperors, kings and presidents since Joseph Smith would go to the Prophet? Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, President Nelson, President Oaks and say, there's this battle at hand. Will you inquire of the Lord? Will, what would our world be like under that circumstance?
- [68:21]
John
I love that you brought up the Alma 43 reference. Think of applying that to our day. Think of us looking at the prophet. Where shall we go to defend ourselves against the enemy? What is going to be attacked? One of the first things I thought of was the proclamation to the world on the family. Where will the enemy attack? There's a prophet saying, this is going to be one of the front lines.
- [68:46]
Dr. Don Perry
It may be that the prophet of God will say this. Now I'm just making this up. Everyone know that. Open up your doors to your country for our missionaries and let the powerful young sisters and elders teach the Book of Mormon. That's the answer. And come unto Christ. Because the Book of Mormon is Christ focused one by one.
- [69:13]
John
Yeah. It won't be a big military or a new law. It will be hearts being changed one by one that will change the world. We should have sung a song. We Three kings will go to the Prophet. Because when you said three kings, I was like, oh, Merry Christmas. This is great.
- [69:30]
Dr. Don Perry
Right? I love it.
- [69:33]
Hank Smith
Coming up in Part two, I was
- [69:36]
Dr. Don Perry
on a boat, not a ship, in the fjords of Norway. I was with a group of professors of Hebrew. And we were taking a break from our conference. And the break was let's go out on a boat. And it was organized beforehand for the afternoon in the fjords of Norway. We were discussing whether scripture, and in this case it's Old Testament, was fiction or non fiction.