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- [00:01]
John
Welcome to part two with Dr. Don Perry in 2 Kings 2 through 7.
- [00:07]
Dr. Don Perry
Go to 2 Kings, chapter five. This is a very famous episode, and I want to point out a handful of items.
- [00:17]
Hank
Okay, let's do it.
- [00:19]
John
I could do this all day. This is so fun.
- [00:22]
Dr. Don Perry
Second Kings, chapter five, verse one. Now, Naaman, captain of the host. John. Here again, it should read army. Captain of the army of the king of Syria was a great man. Now, notice how he's described a great man with his master and honorable in the Hebrew. It's an idiom. It's very interesting. We have a lot of idioms in English that make no sense unless you're born and raised as an English speaker. A lot of them. Hundreds. This one says where it's translated honorable in the King James. It's lifted up of face. His face is lifted up because by him the Lord. Notice here, it's the Lord Jehovah had given deliverance unto Syria. That's a whole new story. What? The Lord delivered Syria during the war? Yes, it's right here. Because by him, Naaman, the Lord had given deliverance unto Syria. He was also a mighty man. In Hebrew, it's gibor. In Isaiah 9, 6, 1 of the throne names of Jehovah is El Gibor, God the warrior or God the Mighty, in power or valor. Notice this. The last word in the King James says, but he was leper. In the King James, it has, but he was in italics. That's not in the Hebrew. In the Hebrew, it's more dramatic. He was a mighty man in valor, comma, pause. Leper. That's how it should read. Leper. You don't want to be a leper during this age of the history.
- [02:13]
John
I don't even want to get a cold in that age of the history.
- [02:18]
Dr. Don Perry
Verse 2, and the Syrians had gone out by companies, literally troops. It's from the root Gad, one of the 12 tribes. The name Gad, it means troop or fortune. It's also the root of Megiddo. Gad. Megiddo, place of troops. Megiddo. From Megiddo har. Megiddo is where we get the word Armageddon. The hay or the H is soft in Hebrew. So instead of Harmagido, Armageddo or Armageddon, and had brought away, captive out of the land, a little maid. Let's tell you what the little maid is. We feel really bad for this little maid. Whoever's writing this text doesn't use her name. I don't think it's a dysphemism. They probably didn't know. But the word is the female form of young man. So young woman, teenager, 20 year old, 25 year old, not an 8 year old or 6 year old. And she waited on Naaman's wife. So she was a servant for Naaman's wife, but she was captive. I wish we knew more about her here. We're talking about her 2,800 years later. She's a little maid. She has faith in God's prophet. She, she was a follower of Elisha. Verse 3 and she said unto her mistress, meaning Naaman's wife, would God my Lord Naaman were with the prophet Elisha, that is in Samaria, for he would recover him of his leprosy. How much faith is this to say this to your mistress who's the wife of this great famous captain of the army.
- [04:12]
John
Wow.
- [04:14]
Dr. Don Perry
This one is a lesson for all the young women of the church and the young women everywhere. What a change you can make by having faith.
- [04:24]
Hank
Kind of like a Joseph of Egypt type story. Yes, a little miniature version there, taken captive, probably doesn't want to be there, but it's still bearing testimony.
- [04:34]
Dr. Don Perry
Verse 4 and 1 went in, so a certain person, we don't know who, and told his Lord Naaman and said thus and thus said the maid, regarding Elisha, that's in the land of Israel. Verse 5 tells you how wealthy the king of Syria is. And verse 5 and the king of Syria said go to. Go and I will send a letter unto the king of Israel. He's doing all the proper protocols. Rather than just go to Elisha, we're going to work through the king of Israel. A letter of introduction is so important. In January 1994, when I was invited to become a member of the team of translators of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Emmanuel Tove, who I still work with, were writing a brand new book on Isaiah. He's an emeritus professor from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He had written a letter of introduction and this is similar. Write a letter of introduction and that letter would get me into the Dead Sea Scrolls. Go and I will send a letter to the King of Israel. And when he departed and took with him 10, 10 talents of silver. This is amazing amounts and 6,000 pieces of gold and 10 changes of raiment. It's interesting they put that in there and this is what they're going to pay Elisha to heal him. They didn't quite get the concept of a prophet of God. Now I'm going to jump down. The whole story goes through verse 27. I want to go to verse 13 and point some things out.
- [06:12]
John
Can I stop for a second? I love when our audience can hear about a scholar like Don Perry not being rejected because he's a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but being accepted because of his exceptional scholarship. There are Latter Day Saints with exceptional scholarship who know the rules of scholarship so that they can be trusted with something like the Dead Sea Scrolls and not felt that they are going to have some bias or something like that, because he knows how to look at them, knows the tools of scholarship to analyze it. I love that you could have that letter of introduction. And I love hearing that sort of thing about many of our scholars. So I just wanted to stop and say how wonderful is this that we have a faithful, active Latter Day Saint who is one of the trusted people on the Dead Sea Scrolls. Don't you think that's cool, Hank?
- [07:07]
Hank
I think that's amazing.
- [07:09]
Dr. Don Perry
I love that. I so appreciate that, John. Thank you so much. I'm reminded of one of the conferences that I attended, and it was not a conference for Latter Day Saints, it was a conference for scholars. And we had a question and answer. And I was on a panel with some other scholars. A dear lady said to me, how did you, Dr. Perry, become involved in the Dead Sea Scrolls? I did not hesitate and I said, all the credit goes to God. Not because I had a PhD in the Hebrew Bible and I've been trained in it and I've spent years. I said, the credit goes to God. It was an act of God that I became a member of the team of translators of the Dead Sea Scrolls. She was taken back a little bit. One, that someone on the panel would mention God freely, and two, that I would give credit to God. I think taken back in a good way. Before we continue, I'm wondering, Hank, would it be okay if you summarize this story before we go to the conclusion?
- [08:16]
Hank
You gotta. I love this story. I did a talk called I Love My Friends. You can get it on YouTube. I talked about Naaman's good friend who stops him from doing something really dumb. Naaman. It's quite a name, isn't it? His parents probably said, what should we name him? And they thought, well, that's pretty good.
- [08:33]
John
How about naming?
- [08:35]
Dr. Don Perry
That's a good one. I love it.
- [08:36]
Hank
He has leprosy, like we talked about. And he's heard there's a prophet in Israel. He goes to Elisha. Must be a long ways to go. Elisha sends out a messenger that says, hey, he wants you to Go wash in the Jordan river seven times. Naaman is upset. He said, surely I thought he'd talk to me face to face. And he said, I don't like the Jordan River. It's not very clean. He's about to go home when one of his servants says, hey, if he would have told you to do something huge, you would have done it. This isn't huge, but why don't you do it? What a good friend who says, you're going to make a poor choice here. So he does it. He jumps into the Jordan river seven times and he is healed.
- [09:21]
Dr. Don Perry
That was so powerful. Thank you very much. I greatly appreciate it. I wanted to point out a couple of things in verse 14, perhaps we can read it first. Then went he down and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God. That's what a lot of people called Elijah and Elisha ish Haelohim, the man of God. And his flesh came again, like unto the flesh of a little child. And he was clean. First of all, the Jordan River. Centuries later, our Lord and Master would be baptized in that river. This is also the river that Elijah and then Elisha had divided with the power of the mantle. The power of God using the mantle. But where it says 7. 7 is a very powerful and symbolic number. It's a literal number, but it's also symbolic. And seven in Hebrew, it's shave, Shiva. It's the root of Beresheva. Beresheva, the city. Be' er means a water well, the well of the seven. But also shiva means to swear or take an oath. So is it the well where someone took an oath, or is it the well of seven? Like seven parts or seven streams or something that feed the well. There's also the famous name of the Bathsheba. Bathsheba, remember the widow of Uriah, the wife of David and the mother of Solomon. Bath means daughter. So the daughter of seven, or the daughter of an oath. And there are some other names, too. But seven is found very prominently in Leviticus, Exodus, and the Book of Revelation. And it's used in ceremony. I'll give two or three out of maybe four, 20 or 30 examples. Exodus 20:9. Seven days, thou shalt make an atonement for the altar. Seven days. And the ritual included sprinkling holy oil seven times upon the altar. Some scholars, like Bollinger, Ethelbert Bollinger, I tell my students, I say, if you have a child and it's a boy, please consider Ethelbert. He's a famous biblical scholar. He is A believer. The students don't know if I'm serious or not. He wrote a book called Number in Scripture, and he claims that the number seven represent wholeness or completion. Seven times in Jordan. Jordan's a modest little river. Then it says, his flesh came clean like unto the flesh of a little child. This is fascinating because this is God's hand healing Naaman from this horrible leprosy for him to come up. And he has flesh, not like a windblown, sunburned soldier commander, but now the flesh of a little child. And then the last point I wanted to point out was he was clean. The word for clean is used in the scriptures often for ritually clean or ritually pure. And it's used in connection with the temple and becoming pure so you can serve in the temple. My lexicons, one, says be morally clean or two, be ceremonially clean. Did God make Naaman ceremonially clean or morally clean from previous whatever has happened in his life? It's a fascinating term. It's a loaded term.
- [13:24]
John
Are we seeing a type of baptism in the Jordan right there?
- [13:28]
Dr. Don Perry
I think so. And that's what baptism does. It makes you like a little child.
- [13:34]
John
Right. God is a dermatologist here. So leprosy, the word is used to describe lots of different things. Is that right?
- [13:44]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes, the Hebrew word. Scholars now say it could be different skin diseases and not leprosy as we have thought in the past.
- [13:54]
Hank
Jesus is going to bring up this story in the synagogue in Nazareth, isn't he? He's going to say, remember when nobody accepted Elisha as a prophet, but there was a non Israelite who did?
- [14:06]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes, good point.
- [14:08]
John
There were 10 talents of silver, 6,000 pieces of gold, and 10 changes of raiment. And excuse me for being materialistic, but where did that stuff go?
- [14:19]
Dr. Don Perry
Elisha would not take it. However, his servant Gehazi went back and followed Naaman behind Elisha's back and followed the entourage with Naaman and his group and said something like, my master, Elisha has changed his mind. He wants some of this money. And he received some of it. When Elisha heard about it, Gehazi then became a leper. He became a leper in place of Naaman.
- [14:57]
John
He got the same malady.
- [15:00]
Hank
Don't be greedy, Gehazi.
- [15:02]
Dr. Don Perry
Yeah, don't be greedy. Follow the prophet.
- [15:06]
Hank
I'm going to have to bring that up with my kids. Don't be a greedy, Gehazi.
- [15:11]
John
Well, he didn't take everything. Could I just have two of the changes of garments? He said.
- [15:16]
Hank
He's like, hey, Remember how you were going to pay?
- [15:19]
Dr. Don Perry
Yeah, yeah, that's right. He said, a talent of silver and two changes of garments.
- [15:25]
John
Ouch.
- [15:26]
Hank
He should have gone to Elisha. He sees Elisha can do miracles. He should have gone to Elisha and said, hey, remember how I need some clothes and silver? Oh, Gehazi.
- [15:37]
John
Oh, that reminds me of. Who is it in the Book of Acts that holds back there?
- [15:42]
Hank
Yeah, Priscilla.
- [15:44]
John
And they just dropped dead. It's like, Whoa.
- [15:48]
Dr. Don Perry
Yeah. Chapter five, the last verse, verse 27. Elisha speaking to Gehazi. The leprosy thereof of Naaman shall cleave unto thee and unto thy seed forever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow. The word for cleave, interestingly, is the same word in modern Hebrew as glue. Like Elmer's glue. It'll be part of him, just like glue. You're glued together.
- [16:22]
Hank
If you want to do a good little lesson on friends, you go to 2 Kings 5, 13, like I mentioned. And you talk about how this friend stood between his friend and a really bad choice and decided to say something.
- [16:37]
John
Yeah. And that gotta be some courage. He's just a servant. Think of all the simple things that we are asked to do. Not great things. Simple things that stacked over time. We don't define ourselves by our goals. We shouldn't. We define ourselves by our habits. What simple things do you do every day? And where will that lead you? Instead of some one great thing.
- [17:00]
Hank
Now when President Oaks says, do this small thing, and we think, oh, that's not a big deal. I'm not going to do that. Maybe we can remember this verse. If the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, you probably would have done it. He's just asking you to do this small thing.
- [17:14]
Dr. Don Perry
Shouldn't you do it similar to the serpent on the pole? All you have to do is look up to it. Just look up.
- [17:23]
John
They did not think it would heal them, so they didn't look up.
- [17:28]
Hank
Great connection. Let's keep going.
- [17:31]
Dr. Don Perry
2 Kings 6, 8. But I'm not going to read the whole narrative. This is about the prophet Elisha and the chariots of fire. We are returning to a chariot to remind everyone that Elisha had a servant. If you jump to verse 15, remember that Assyria's king who was trying to capture Elisha, had surrounded during the night with soldiers, horses and chariots surrounded Elisha, hoping to capture him. Oh, please. This is Elisha. Give it up. Stay home. Do important things. Read your scriptures. Verse 15. When the servant of the man of God isha Elohim, the man of Elohim was risen early and gone forth. Behold, a host here. It's a different word, John, by the way, from the host. This is the word chayil. This is the same word that's found when it says a virtuous woman in Hebrew. It's not a virtuous woman. It's a woman of power. That's a different discussion. Ruth is also called a woman of power, a woman of Chael. This is a powerful army, but powerful compass. The city both with horses and chariots. These are actual horses, flesh and blood and chariots. Elisha's servant said unto him, alas, my master, how shall we do? Which we would say in English, what should we do? Verse 16. And Elisha answered, fear not. The reason I'm bringing this up, I'm going to read two extraordinary quotes by modern apostles in just a minute. Fear not, for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. And Elisha prayed and said, lord, here we have again. Jehovah, I pray thee. And here again it's please open his eyes that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire. We often miss this roundabout. Elisha surrounding Elisha surrounding God's prophet and seer. Now, I want to come back to verse 18 in a minute. There's this extraordinary quote by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland. In the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we have help from both sides of the veil. When disappointment and discouragement strike, and they will, we need to remember that if our eyes could be opened, we would see horses and chariots of fire as far as the eye can see. Riding at great speed to come to our protection. They will always be there, these armies of heaven in defense of Abraham's seed. I want to emphasize two or three things that I just read. One is we would see horses and chariots of fire. How many? As far as the eye can see. I live in Woodland Hills. I can see the point of the mountain from Woodland Hills. Thirty miles, maybe. Horses and chariots as far as the eye can see. I believe Elder Holland here, I don't think he's using metaphors or symbols. I think this is real. We could see horses and chariots.2. Riding at great speed. Not just stopping for water for the horses, and stopping and taking their time and walking, riding at great speed to come to our protection. Number three. They will always be there, the armies of heaven. I believe it. This is Elder Holland, the Sources, however long and hard the Road, pages 13 and 14. This quote has given me so much peace over the years. I've got one more. President Henry B. Eyring. It's found in an article, O ye that Embark, The Ensign Magazine, November 2008. Quote, I know that the promise of angels to bear us up is real. You might want to bring to memory the assurance of Elisha to his frightened servant. That assurance is ours when we feel close to being overwhelmed in our service. Elisha faced real and terrible opposition. Like that servant of Elisha. There's an ellipses here. Like that servant of Elisha, there are more with you than those you can see. Opposed to you. Some who are with you will be invisible to your mortal eyes. End of quote. Now I want to get back to what happens with Elisha. We're back in 2 Kings 6. We're continuing with verse 18. When they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the Lord and said, smite this people, I pray thee with blindness. Now, this isn't the compassion yet. Just hold on. The blindness. Everyone is going to be temporary. And he, the Lord, smote them with blindness, according to the word of Elisha. I don't think this is literally blindness. I can't see anything. But it might be verse 19. And Elisha said unto them, this is not the way, neither is this a city. Follow me and I'll bring you to the man whom ye seek. Well, the man that they are seeking is. Is Elisha himself. But he led them to Samaria. Now they're in Dothan. Dothan is about 12 miles to Samaria. So Elisha is going to lead them from Dothan, this ancient biblical town, and there's a city there now, to Samaria, about 12 miles. And I did some calculating. If the average person walks, if it takes 15 to 22 minutes to walk a mile, maybe that's on a track that's flat. They're going to be with the prophet Elisha for some time to walk the 12 miles. So they walk the 12 miles. I'd love to know the conversations. What are they saying? Who are you, Mr. We can't see and where are we going? The servant probably wondering what's going on. Now here's where the compassion comes in. They arrive in samaria in verse 21. Remember, Elisha knows all these kings. The king of Israel said unto Elisha when he saw them, my father. Notice here again, it's father. It's not blood relationship, it's a term of respect. Shall I smite them, Elisha? Brought the enemy right to Samaria, this beautiful, powerful town. And the kings there, the king sees that they're blind and they're helpless. Shall I smite them? Shall I smite them? And Elisha answered, Verse 22, Thou shalt not smite them. Wouldest thou smite them who thou hast taken captivity with a sword and with thy bow.
- [25:24]
Hank
Prisoners of war, right?
- [25:26]
Dr. Don Perry
Yeah, prisoners of war. And here is the compassion. Don't smite them. Set bread and water before them that they may eat and drink and go to their master. That's Elisha, the prophet. These are the people that tried to capture him. They were after him. They surrounded him. That's a powerful set of stories.
- [25:49]
John
I'd like to go back to verse 16 again. When I see with us, I always think of the promise in the prayer, in the sacrament, that they may always have his spirit to be with them.
- [26:04]
Hank
I love that.
- [26:05]
John
If we have the Spirit with us, then they that be with us are more than they that be with them. Right. I love that God and one other person is a majority. Right. If you have the spirit with you, that promise of God being with us, that's the name of Jesus. God with us. Emmanuel, you just see that so often that we never have to be alone. God can be with us.
- [26:31]
Dr. Don Perry
I love that. I appreciate that so much.
- [26:35]
Hank
You know, as a teacher of youth. It's exactly what Elisha prayed. Please open their eyes that they can see. Oh, that they can see what I see?
- [26:48]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes.
- [26:49]
Hank
And only the Lord can do it. We can't force their eyes open. Same thing for my kids, right? Oh, I hope they see. Lord help me, Lord, open their eyes that they may see.
- [27:00]
John
It's a good prayer.
- [27:03]
Dr. Don Perry
Love it. Thank you. We've talked about Elisha being a type and shadow of Jesus. Indeed, Absolutely, positively. He was a type and shadow of Jesus. Remember Moses 6, 63. All things testify of me. I want to look at one more. It's in 2 Kings 13. It's two verses. They're powerful verses. I wonder if sometimes we read this text so fast we don't really see what's going on. Second Kings 13:20. And Elisha died and they buried him. Notice it doesn't say who buried him, it just says they buried him. So it's not an explicit subject. The people buried him. And the bands. For bands here, it should read troops. The troops. So soldiers of the Moabites invaded the land. At the coming end of the year, probably the new year, we have Moabites coming into the land, and we've talked about the Moabites earlier. And they're invading the Israelites. They're coming in, invading, going out, coming in, invading, going out. Elisha's dead and he's buried. Verse 21. And it came to pass as they were burying another man, an unnamed man. They have this entourage. They're burying this other man that, behold, they spied a band or a troop of Moabites in haste, instead of giving this second man a proper burial, because here's the enemy coming, they cast the man into the sepulcher of Elisha. And when the man was let down, cast into this tomb, and touched the bones of Elisha, the dead man revived and stood on his feet. Even with the death of Elisha the prophet, the second man is restored to life. This man was restored to life, to mortality, when he touched the bones of Elisha. And we also know that through Jesus, death and resurrection, we will be resurrected.
- [29:20]
John
Yeah, that's a great type. He wasn't resurrected like you said. He was brought back to mortality because there's no resurrection yet. That's going to be Christ. But he was brought back to mortality. Well, there's just another place where Elisha, A type of Christ, which you've showed us so many today.
- [29:38]
Dr. Don Perry
Yet another one.
- [29:40]
Hank
Fantastic.
- [29:41]
John
Dawn. I'm reading ahead, and I just looked at 2 Kings 13:23. The Lord was gracious unto them and had compassion on them, and had respect unto them because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and would not destroy them, neither cast he them from his presence as yet. That's a nice hopeful verse, isn't it? Abrahamic covenant in there.
- [30:06]
Dr. Don Perry
I love it. Excellent. Two concluding thoughts. One is the idea of 17 seconds. What do I mean by 17 seconds? According to one study, individuals who go to museums of art spend on the average 17 seconds looking at a painting. 17 seconds, that's way too fast. That prompted an individual named Phil Terry in 2009 to start something called Slow Art Day. Quote, Slow Art Day. That's where they would encourage patrons to go to a museum and spend five to 10 minutes looking at a piece of art, studying it up close, and then going from a little distance. Point number one is, I really hope our audience will spend more than 17 seconds reading a verse or another verse or another verse. I hope that we will study verses closely and carefully. When I teach the Hebrew Bible, sometimes we will spend an hour reading one verse in the Hebrew and discussing the different parts and aspects. And I don't mean just grammar. I mean, what does the verse mean? What does it mean to Us, what did it mean to the ancients? How can we liken it unto us? That's point number one. Point two is I want to bear solemn testimony. I want to stand as a witness of someone who has studied the Hebrew Bible carefully and who's taught it for 34 years. The Hebrew Bible and all scriptures testify of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. This is not I believe. This is I know through the power of the Holy Ghost we can know all things. So I want to solemnly bear that witness.
- [32:10]
Hank
Thank you, Don. John, how many notes have you taken?
- [32:19]
John
There's been a scholar in our midst, Hank, but the way you closed there is a testimony there for someone who knows 6800 times Lord in caps meaning Jehovah. I love the idea of theophoric names because there's so many that have a ayah in them like Jehovah or an L in them. Michael, Daniel, Nathaniel. So fun to see the names of God in the names of people, how important it was to them for an identity that we take upon ourselves the name of Christ, whether God is in our name or not. Today, we all do that. Take that name of Christ upon us in the sacrament covenant. I think it's cool. 30 groups of Hebraisms, hundreds of examples of each. Is that a book project someday? That would be fun to see.
- [33:20]
Dr. Don Perry
That's a book that was published by the rsc, the Religious Studies center at byu. It's already published. It's out there.
- [33:28]
John
What's it called?
- [33:30]
Dr. Don Perry
It's called Preserved in Translation, Colon Hebraisms and Other Ancient Literary Forms in the book of Mormon 2020.
- [33:44]
Hank
Don, I have a couple questions for you. One, it's obvious to everybody listening that you love scripture. Not everybody is there. Can you help someone who's listening, who wants to be there? How can they get there?
- [34:00]
Dr. Don Perry
It's a great question. I would suggest take baby steps. Line up online, maybe start with a verse. Study the verse more than they feel comfortable and ask questions of the verse. There should be at least two outlooks. There are six outlooks for every verse of scripture published. Six outlooks. One is, what did that verse mean to the audience when Isaiah spoke, When Nephi, Alma, Elisha, what does it mean to them? Another of the six outlooks is what does it mean to me? How can it change my life? Take your time. Instead of 17 seconds, take a couple minutes. Ask a lot of questions. I'll liken it unto me. Years ago, I went to the gym regularly and had a set workout. About three years ago, I returned to the gym and I was a little tentative and I started lineup online. My physician said, go easy because of my age, 40 plus. And I started easy and I worked into it. And Now I do 630 repetitions on different weights. I'll do this one over here. I'll do 10, 10, 10, 10, 10. Three sets of 10. I do 630. Now I'm right at home in the gym. I remember the first day I went. There was a stair climber at the BYU gym and I worked on the stair climber and I went 10 floors, okay? And I huffed and puffed and I thought, is this worth it? And I looked over at the guy. So I was on the 9th floor, he was on the 99th floor, the guy next to me. I will admit I was so thankful that BYU removed those stair climbers. There were two of them from the gym just like I worked into the weights. Now I'm confident and I have this set routine and this protocol and I go Monday, Wednesday and Friday like clockwork. Even if I'm traveling abroad, I'll find a hotel or a cruise ship and I'll do it. And the scriptures are a thousand times more important than what I'm saying with workout. But spend more than the seconds, study it and then go to the next verse. That's not to take away from reading your chapter two from the Book of Mormon. We're all really busy, but just spend more time. That's what I suggest.
- [36:42]
John
I just texted Coach sataki about your 630 reps. He needs to know you. Did you say there were six approaches? What does it mean to them? What does it mean to me?
- [36:55]
Dr. Don Perry
They're called six outlooks. You can apply all six to all the scriptures. Number one is reading the Scripture in its historical context. Scholars call that the near view or the contemporaneous view. What did it mean at the time of Moses, Isaiah, Amos, Hannah, Ruth, Alma and Moroni? What did it mean to them? Read the Scripture in its context.
- [37:23]
Hank
That's an exegetical reading, right, Don?
- [37:25]
Dr. Don Perry
Yes. Number two is reading prophecy. It's called a distant view. Reading into the future. That would be Isaiah 53, for example. You read Isaiah 53. What does this mean? Several New Testament prophets, writers and abinadi in the Book of Mormon all relate Isaiah 53 or parts of it to Jesus Christ, the Messiah. Reading prophecy? Some people say there's no such thing as prophecy. Prophets can't prophesy, Not Latter Day Saints. I'm just speaking of people out there. Different scholars. Number three is recognizing dual or multiple fulfillment Prophecies. That's what you call reading a near view and a distant view. President Oaks has talked about that before and given examples of how some prophecies are multiple fulfillments. The same prophecy can have two valid and legitimate fulfillments. That's a very important one. That's number three. I had one person say, oh, that doesn't exist. There's no such thing. You can't have two legitimate prophecies. I just quote President Oaks on that one. Number four is likening Isaiah's words to us. This is not only a Book of Mormon teaching we like in the Scriptures, but the Essene Jews who own the Dead Sea Scrolls. There are Hebrew words for this. Liken the Scriptures unto themselves. For example, they would take Isaiah, it's called a pesher, P E S H E R pesher. They would read a verse from Isaiah and liken it unto their own community. Well, we're invited to do that and we can do that with any verse in Scripture. They're speaking of Goel or Redeemer, small R in Ruth, chapter four. How can this apply to me and to the Savior, who is a Redeemer? Capital R, Redeemer. The Redeemer of Israel. Any verse, any topic. Number five out of the six outlooks is reading a passage of scripture for personal reasons. That is for personal instruction, for spiritual guidance, for devotionalistic purposes, to receive personal revelation, or for other reasons. Here's an example. I, Don Perry, need to know where to go to grad school, for example, who to marry, what do I do with my life, occupation. And you're reading the Scriptures and the Lord will reveal something to you personally that might have nothing to do with the passage you're reading. You're reading Isaiah or Ezekiel or Alma or Nephi, and you get this light, the light, the Holy Ghost that will prompt you. Don, you need to include the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in your grad school studies. That reason will be revealed to you down the road. I don't have the money to take four kids to Israel. How do I do that? Don, I'm in charge. Number six is to read scripture to understand doctrine. This one is so important. I've met some good friends who have left the church because they didn't understand doctrine. If they had have been aware of how Jehovah or how God works with some of the ancients, or if they had have read this passage or this one instead, they've read something online by an anonymous writer who made these claims. If they had have known doctrine well enough, you'd Say, oh, that's clear. Read Ezekiel, read Amos, read Alma, read Doctrine, Section 42 at some point. I don't want to hear it. I don't even want to discuss with you. I've made up my mind. But if they had of known doctrine in some cases. I'm not speaking of all cases, then some of my acquaintances, and I don't have many, two or three maybe, wouldn't have left the church. Those are the six.
- [42:05]
John
Great.
- [42:07]
Hank
Thank you for that.
- [42:08]
John
Yeah. I especially like the fact that it puts you in a frame of mind to receive inspiration. Like you said, that may have nothing to do with the actual words you're reading, but you're in a frame of mind because you're seeking the spirit and you'll get answers no matter what you're reading. You could be reading about she bears coming out of the woods and you could still get some insight. Yeah.
- [42:32]
Hank
I remember when Rosalind Welch told us that the scriptures are a place to meet the Lord. Kind of walk in and start looking around, look for Him. Don, maybe one more question, maybe two. How have you seen the scriptures help those who are suffering? Because we think, here I am going through this, whatever terrible trial so many are going through them, who are our listeners. And they think, well, two Kings, that can't help me with my difficulty. So what have you seen in your life? How do Scriptures, how have they helped you through hard times?
- [43:09]
Dr. Don Perry
For me personally, all scripture helps with whatever my condition is, whatever my state of being is, whether it's physical health or mental issue or whatever. All scripture helps. Any scripture, every verse. At one point, I was with a group of about 25 people. They needed an uplift. I randomly had them choose a verse of Scripture. Randomly. We read it. Light came into their eyes. It was a physical change, just a random chosen picture or a verse and light came on in the room. I mean, there's a full story behind it. That's all I'm going to tell it this time.
- [44:03]
Hank
But it brings a ray of light, a scripture, a verse.
- [44:06]
Dr. Don Perry
It brings light and hope and love and the love of God. Absolutely. And all scripture.
- [44:15]
John
I like that you said a ray. Who is it that gave the general conference talk about those rays combined can create a pillar of light. We keep adding rays every day. I love it.
- [44:27]
Hank
And each one of these stories today had these rays of light.
- [44:32]
Dr. Don Perry
The Holy Ghost accompanies scripture, the word
- [44:36]
Hank
of God which heals the wounded soul. There may be a myth out there that well educated people don't believe. You have earned your education, your languages, your Scholarship is top notch. Your work on the Dead Sea Scrolls is up there with any other Dead Sea scroll scholar or above. So when someone says, oh, well, educated people don't believe, what's your response to that? Because here you are, very educated and you believe.
- [45:09]
Dr. Don Perry
I was on a boat, not a ship, in the fjords of Norway. I was with a group of professors of Hebrew and we were taking a break from our conference and the break was, let's go out on a boat. And it was organized beforehand for the afternoon in the fjords of Norway. We were discussing whether scripture, and in this case it's Old Testament, was fiction or nonfiction. I was the only Latter Day Saint in the group. I was very interested to hear them say, this is fiction. This is fiction. This is not fiction. How do we know this is not fiction? No one brought up the power of the Holy Ghost. In the end, one individual said, I will conclude this and I'll settle the matter. And this individual said it with some degree of completeness and finality. Everything in the Old Testament is fiction up to the time of King David. King David was the first historical figure, according to this individual. So I was not there to convince them. Here's my response. And I've used this. I've had people ask me this question often. Here's my response. Moroni10 5. It's a famous passage. By the power of the Holy Ghost, ye may know the truth, know, not believe. Know the truth of all things. I take this literally. By the Holy Ghost, we'll know the truth of all things. And including the Book of Mormon, it's the word of God. And notice it says know and not believe. I want to emphasize that because I've heard people say, I believe. I don't know if I know, but I believe. But we can know from this passage. The key here is to live, to receive the Holy Ghost, to study, to do your homework, to be diligent, to be prayerful, and ye may know the truth of all things, including the Old Testament and other scriptures.
- [47:23]
Hank
You are a believer, Don, through and through.
- [47:26]
Dr. Don Perry
And someone might say, that's too simple. It's simple, it's powerful, and it's true.
- [47:33]
Hank
As an expert in ancient scripture, how does the restoration shake out? Do you see those worlds coming together? You know the ancient world as well as any scholar out there. And here you are in Latter Day Saint temples reading Latter Day Saint restoration scripture. Have you seen those worlds come together?
- [47:53]
Dr. Don Perry
Oh, absolutely, positively. No hesitation. I'll give you an example. I was in Huntington Beach, California, presenting on Ancient Temples, the Tabernacle of Moses and Solomon's Temple. The stake had a display. They actually had a full model of the Tabernacle of Moses, the same one that came to byu. A man came up to me and said, you Salt Lake Temple has nothing to do with ancient temples. Nothing. He was adamant. His face was flushed red. He was ready to battle. I didn't battle. I was careful. There are about 30 correspondences between ancient temples and modern temples. This is one example. In answering your question about the restoration, Joseph Smith, when he restored our temple through the power of God and through the power of the spirit and with the help of angels, restored 30 correspondences between ancient modern temples. 30, maybe 35, but I'm rounding it off to 30. 30 correspondences. That's astounding. President Nelson has made many comments about how our temple is a restoration of ancient temples, the ancient temple doctrines. He's made several comments about it, several statements. That's just one aspect here. I could give you several examples of the correspondences between ancient and modern temples that are astounding. I'll give you one example of sacred clothing. Another example is gradations of holiness. How many people know about gradations of holiness? The idea of you begin at a holy space and you go to a holier space and a holiest space, the holy of holies. We have that in our temples. That's also a major theme of the Tabernacle. Moses, the Temple of Solomon. You find it in Herod's temple. Guess what? You find it in the temple scroll, 28 foot scroll found in the Dead Sea scrolls in the 1950s. Another example of the restoration is coming forth of the Book of Mormon. We've already talked about it a lot and about the Hebrew like expressions found in the Book of Mormon. I'm astounded. It's a restoration through the prophet and seer, Joseph Smith, and the restoration is ongoing, said President Nelson. The Book of Moses has many Hebraisms in it. No one has investigated that yet. We've investigated thoroughly the Book of Mormon. That's not to say that we've completed the book, the investigation. No one has investigated the Book of Moses. It is filled with Hebraisms. I've given so many firesides on the temples and the correspondences. I've also shared years ago with the temple department of the church. I went and spoke to the architects and they had a retreat. People have to ask, how did Joseph Smith get that right? Here's another example. Ancient modern temples teach powerful truths regarding the atonement. President Russell M. Nelson said, the basis for every temple ordinance and covenant. The heart of the plan of salvation is the atonement of Jesus Christ. Every activity, every lesson, all we do in the church, point to the Lord and his holy house, and our efforts to proclaim the Gospel, perfect the saints and redeem the dead all lead to the temple. But here's the key. The basis for every temple ordinance and covenant is the atonement of Jesus. Now you go back into the law of Moses. The law of Moses attests the Hebrew word kippar or kipper, depending on which verbal form which means to atone or atonement. The word atonement 80 times in connection with the tabernacle in the temple, 10 times in Exodus, 49 times in Leviticus, 18 times in Numbers and 3 times in Deuteronomy. The temple, ancient temple, was an atonement focused institution, period. Now that's not to say that every faith in the world believes that atonement points to Jesus. That's a Christian approach.
- [52:48]
John
I just love the idea that they took a temple with them, the tabernacle, that they surrounded it, the way they camped, that it was the center of their life, Literally physically the center of their life. Then when they finally got to Jerusalem, they built that center and everything seemed to be centered around the temple. And look at the restoration, how it was. Job one, we got to build a temple and everywhere they went, we got to build a temple.
- [53:18]
Dr. Don Perry
John, that's one of the 30. That idea of the temple being the center. Good call.
- [53:24]
Hank
How do you feel about the Book of Mormon with your ancient languages background?
- [53:28]
Dr. Don Perry
First I testified it's the word of God and it came through the prophet and seer, Joseph Smith. Absolutely, positively. When I read the Book of Mormon, I can see ancient Israel, ancient Israelite culture, ancient Hebraisms throughout the Book of Mormon, maybe every page.
- [53:49]
Hank
How good would this farmer have to be? Don?
- [53:51]
Dr. Don Perry
He was indeed a prophet and seer. That's the only way. The gift and power of God. The gift and power of God. A scholar with all the knowledge couldn't write that in the amount of time. But to write it, what in a few weeks to translate it. I have identified. Others have identified too, but 292 chiasmuses in the Book of Mormon, good chiasmuses. If you say, okay, we're giving you 12 weeks or 10 weeks to write 292chiasmuses just by themselves. But put them in a context, put them in a narrative, put them in the Book of Mormon.
- [54:35]
John
There's no way, try to dictate down the 36 out of your head.
- [54:39]
Dr. Don Perry
Oh, sure, yeah, that's right.
- [54:42]
John
Yeah.
- [54:42]
Hank
Just come up with it on the spot. Right?
- [54:46]
John
Yeah.
- [54:46]
Dr. Don Perry
I have no doubt about the Book of Mormon. No doubt. It's ancient. It comes out of the ancient world.
- [54:53]
Hank
Don, thank you. Not only have you walked us through kings, but your testimony has strengthened many listening. It was just a joy, John. I remember probably 10 years ago, long before we started the show, I was reading a book by Don and the book of Revelation, preparing for a lesson. And what if you would have told me, hey, by the way, you and John, by the way, going to interview Dr. Perry on a podcast? I would have had a bunch of questions. John, thank you for being here, taking your time to be with us.
- [55:25]
Dr. Don Perry
What a huge, eternal privilege to talk about the Lord. The Lord and Elisha, the Lord and Elijah, the Lord in the miracles. The Lord in ancient Israel. What a privilege.
- [55:40]
John
And he's still a God of miracles.
- [55:42]
Dr. Don Perry
He's a God of miracles.
- [55:45]
Hank
Don, thank you. With that, we want to thank Dr. Don Perry for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. In every episode, we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We're going to continue our march through the Old Testament on Follow Him. As a thank you to our wonderful listeners, we'd love to gift you the digital version of our book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. It offers short, meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episodes. Visit followhim.co. that's followhim.co. to download your free copy today and you'll also find the link to purchase the print edition. Thank you for being part of our Follow him family. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, Sydney Smith, and Annabelle Sorenson.
- [56:44]
Dr. Don Perry
Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow Him.