John Bytheway (3:32)

I remember when Covid hit and I thought, this will be a rough period of time. And then Covid actually took my brother in December of 2020 and it was, oh wow. It was a real moment for my family and I. It was stunning to say the least. Verse 35. Be not troubled. Be not troubled. You may know that the promises which have been made unto you shall be fulfilled. Verses like that, messages like that help you carry on through the things you described there, Shima. That's an overflowing scourge, a desolating sickness. Cover the land. Men harden their hearts. They take up the sword to kill one another. This is pretty graphic stuff, but the Lord says, be not troubled. The promises which I have made will be fulfilled.

Hank Smith (4:27)

I was reading in Steve Harper's book Making Sense of the Doctrine and Covenants, and he said. Sister Patricia Holland told about her own fears during a fierce storm that raged through her neighborhood just as she was hearing news reports of semi trailer trucks, 20 of them, being blown over on the roadside. Through her window, she saw two trees crash to the ground. Truly fearful, she thought. Of the recent genocide in Kosovo, a school massacre in Colorado, murderers in the family history library in Salt Lake City, and the pending dawn of the year 2000. So this is a while back, she whispered to her apostle husband, do you think this is the end? Is it all over or about to be? He replied, no, but wouldn't it be wonderful if it were? So we know how to look at it. The Lord's being merciful in telling us what it's going to be like. We can know. Yep, this is what they said would happen. But we also know what's coming. That's better.

John Bytheway (5:29)

That's verse 44. And then they shall look for me, and behold, I will come. And they shall see me in the clouds of heaven, clothed with power and great glory, with all the holy angels. That's hopeful. That's exciting.

Shima Baphman (5:43)

The other physical sign I wanted to talk about is where it talks about fires. In January, we had some pretty prominent fires in Los Angeles. I have two best friends there that live with this anxiety that they were going to lose their homes, wondering how they could deal with it. We can learn a lot from being so proximate to those fires, as disaster and devastation, as we know, is coming in our future, too. My best friend Heather had two siblings who lost their homes in those fires. And she describes how quickly the fires came and how their lives were destroyed instantaneously. And she said LA during this period was apocalyptic. The sky was dark, Many were displaced. There was confusion. She said that it was crazy because people didn't bring anything out of their homes in these regions when they were evacuated, because they'd been evacuated so many times before, only just to return home. But this time it was different. You never know when the warning's real or when it's just practice. And that's why we never know when Jesus Christ is coming, because we will see these devastations and not know. And I want to tell you a couple stories that were pretty incredible. As she described. So her brother Jeff, he sent his wife and children to an evacuation zone, and he spent several hours convincing his elderly neighbors to evacuate. So many didn't want to evacuate because the difficulty of moving. There's so many previous false alarms. They didn't want to go. But 150 out of the 200 homes in his community were burned. I just think about the goodness and the light, the beauty out of the ashes of people that served each other. She also describes my friend Heather, the Palisades and the Maravista war, bishops who. The roads were closed off. It was craziness but they rode their bikes. The homes they let. Her sister Adrian, who has a kid in college. She has not stepped foot inside of one of our chapels since she was a young woman. But the bishop's the first one who reaches out to let her know the condition of her home, which she was so grateful for. The bishop found her number through the church records. And I think there's a lot of lessons here with this beauty of ashes. What's so beautiful, too, is the church building in the Palisades was preserved in this area when everything around it burned, including all the other five churches, which is a miracle. Once things stabilize, the people have a plan in this area that they're going to share our building with all the other congregations so that they can have a place to worship too. Such a miracle. The biggest lesson of this, for me, destruction comes as calamities come. When we know about you, we have a way to provide you relief and love. And we're prepared.

John Bytheway (8:14)

That's fantastic. I love the Ward family that the church provides. We talked about this earlier, John, with Dr. Casey Griffiths. The benefits and the blessings of being in the church. That's got to be part of. Be not troubled.

Hank Smith (8:30)

Some of the most beautiful stories and people's character is really revealed in times like those fires. Heroes. They're not celebrities or athletes. They're heroes. Are these regular folks.

John Bytheway (8:46)

They're just like us.

Hank Smith (8:47)

Trying to help you.

Shima Baphman (8:49)

They're just like us. I love it.

John Bytheway (8:52)

There's this beautiful moment in verse 45 where the Lord says, an angel shall sound his trump. And the saints that have slept shall come forth to meet me in the cloud. No wonder. Elder Holland would say, wouldn't it be wonderful?

Hank Smith (9:09)

Yeah, if it were.

John Bytheway (9:11)

Wouldn't it be wonderful if it were to see all of those who have slept come forth? Just think of that amidst all this difficulty and scary language of the second Coming. Knowing that you're going to see your loved ones again. Right then. People who have gone long before you. That's a beautiful idea.

Hank Smith (9:36)

Reminds us of the description of the great and terrible day. We're getting some really great things and some really terrible things. But some really great things, too.

John Bytheway (9:48)

Even the saints he's talking to. 1831. They have slept. They will come forth. Joseph and Emma, Brigham Heber, Violet Hyrum and Mary Philbing. How many people would you want to talk to? Talk about celebrities.

Shima Baphman (10:07)

Right.

John Bytheway (10:08)

We would start to point out all of our church history celebrities. Edward Partridge. Lydia Partridge. I want to meet them.

Hank Smith (10:15)

Four of my kids don't know their Grandparents, my parents at all. So this will be a chant. See up in that cloud right there?

John Bytheway (10:23)

That's Grandpa.

Hank Smith (10:24)

Yeah, there he is.

John Bytheway (10:27)

Grandpa, come meet your grandchildren.

Shima Baphman (10:30)

We kind of alluded to this earlier. I think the second theme of this whole chapter is how do we respond with the Second Coming? Is it with anxiety? Are we troubled or. Mockery is another thing that's brought up that we don't often think about with the Second Coming. Also, it talks about love will wax cold in verse 26 and 27, that some people won't perceive light in 29, that they harden their hearts against me. In 33, the wicked curse God and die. 32. There's a lot of that. I want to really focus on verse 26, which we started earlier in talking about that men's hearts will fail. This also has mentioned Luke 21 and Moses 8. What does this mean when our hearts fail? If we have questions, can we still turn our hearts towards him? Often as I think about the heart, it's a symbol of our. The center of our desires, our loyalties. It's a figurative symbol of our faith and our love of God. I believe when you think about our hearts beating 100 times a minute every day, all day, in perfect rhythm to our body's needs to keep us healthy and thriving, I think of it as symbolic of the love of our Savior, the love he has for each of us. And when I lose sight of Jesus's steady and never failing love for me that's symbolized by my heartbeat, I feel like my heart is failing me and I'm left with anxiety and worry rather than a steady, comforting beat. For me, this worry is like a canary in the coal mile. I know that when I'm worried, my heart is not steadily beating with Christ. He's not the center of my life. I'm forgetting that he's already won. The worry that I have demonstrates to me that I'm not trusting in Him. I'm allowing fear to enter in. We know that his plan covers all of us, that his love and atonement is the only way that we survive all these crazy mortal conditions. I remember this time this past year when something really difficult happened with one of my kids and I was very hurt and very worried. I made a plan to talk to him about it. And I remember even telling my husband exactly what I was going to say. Bullet point list. This is what's going to happen. It so happened that week, going to the temple as often as possible. It just happened that I could go more than usual and I prayed about this problem. And as I prayed about this problem, the Lord distinctly told me, you're not going to say a word about this, and you're just going to continue to love. That was this jarring thing, but it's like, can I let my heart be turned over to his and have his steady beat comfort me rather than letting worry and fear take over man?

John Bytheway (13:03)

I wish that spirit would say that to me more often. Don't talk. Don't talk anymore.

Hank Smith (13:12)

I had a similar experience. Something happened that was not right, was not just, was not good. The more I pondered it, the more it was. There is no good that will come out of confronting this. The best good is to let it go. That was interesting. I love your perspective. Their hearts will fail them. I knew it wasn't physical hearts, and I felt like, you know, it's maybe people's conscience will fail, people's goodness and mercy and empathy will fail, and maybe all of those things are also part of it.

John Bytheway (13:50)

You can see the word heart come up again. Verse 29, they turn their hearts from me. Verse 33 Men will harden their hearts against me. If you take those three phrases, your heart fails you. You turn your heart from the Lord, and you harden your heart against him. You're in a pretty bad place. I like Shima, what you said. Watch for those canaries, these signs that this is happening. Turn it around.

Shima Baphman (14:19)

DNC verse 49. This was an interesting one because as we think about making fun of others, mocking God or sacred things, it says in verse 49, and calamity shall cover the mocker, and the scorner shall be consumed. They have watched, for iniquity shall be honed down. And verse 49, the Lord shall utter his voice. And they that have laughed shall see their folly. I think this is very interesting because if we can really connect mockery and scorning to Satan. It tells us in Moses 7, 26, and he beheld Satan and he had a great chain in his hand, and it veiled the whole face of the earth with darkness. And he looked up and laughed, and his angels rejoiced. As I'm thinking about mocking, I think these are especially damaging sin. Maybe we don't connect ourselves with mocking, but I think we do it. And it's, you know, rolling your eyes at someone, laughing at someone, mocking any righteous act or kind act, making fun of at someone else's expense when they're not part of the fun. I think what you do early in the show every episode, Hank, is you get John's permission To make a little joke about it, but that's different. But when you're doing it behind someone's back and about them, when they're not part of the joke, it's particularly invidious. I think it's an offense to God because I think about how we are targeting his most precious creations, his children, and we're adapting a favorite ploy of Satan. When we mock others and dishonor God's image in them, I think that they strip dignity from the victim and corrupt the heart of the offender, making it harder for them to repent and change. This is a sin of the heart. It sows discord, it harms others. It reflects this deep failure of love and humility. I remember when I was a child, I was particularly mocked because as I mentioned, you know, I came in second grade not speaking any English with my parents who'd left everything. We had little money, so I went to school probably smelling like Persian food, which wasn't normal. I wore homemade clothes that weren't cool. I remember people used to mock me for being from the Middle East. I was called a terrorist. Somebody called me Saddam Hussein's daughter when it was during the Iraq war. And I remember telling my parents, who clearly didn't understand, right, the culture, how I was made fun of and they were just like, well tell them that persians have this 3,000 year old culture and that we invented algebra and you know, go ahead and tell them. I was like, no, you don't understand elementary and middle school culture. And this is a sample of what my sons call my depressing immigrant stories that I tell them, but I repeat them to them often. And I'm starting to tell my younger kids now my 8 year old, because I want them to see their mom and the kids at school that look different and act different and they don't have anyone to sit with and that they might mock because they're different. Because I think mocking is a temptation for all of us. I love my father in law Gary told my husband when he was a teenager something that stuck with him his whole life. And there's not a lot of unflattering stories about my husband because he is very humble. As a teen he was trying to figure things out. And there was this time where he had laughed at other people's expense and his dad had saw it and he said, ryan, why do you think your friend Blair was voted homecoming king? Have you ever noticed that he never makes fun of anyone? People love him because he's always kind. And I have to say I'VE never seen my husband make fun of anyone in a cruel way. And I love this lesson because I think the studies show that people that are popular are just nicer to other people. They're not funnier, they're not smarter, they're not richer, they're not better looking, they're not better athletes. Not only will not mocking people help us stay close to the Savior and root out Satan out of our hearts, but it also helps us win more friends in life. The irony of the story is my father in law, his claim to fame is that he's. You guys remember the Tickle Me Elmo doll? Do you remember that old doll, the Tickle Meow? So he was CEO of Fisher Price when they came up with that. And it was a very popular toy, but it laughed when you tickle it. Hopefully this will help us remember the story because when you laugh to be tickled, it's fine. But if you're laughing at other people's expense, that's a no. No. I do think as an adult we get more slick in our mocking. And I'm guilty of this. I share mocking articles or political or celebrity memes thinking it's okay because it's not someone I know. I didn't say it myself. I'm just passing it along, right? Or giggling at comments that are very mocking. I just think sometimes I need to be careful that I am always hurting someone when I'm mocking and it's a tool of a devil and I don't want to be using any of his tools because Christ wouldn't mock. We know that.

John Bytheway (18:45)

Wow, what a great lesson. I remember you telling us last year that Ryan is not a gossiper. He even says, shima, you know you want to vent. Let me tell you about this. And he said, well, I just don't like gossip.

Shima Baphman (18:59)

I think it runs in the family because I've talked to my sister in law and she said her husband's the same. I think they either were taught or genetic. Whatever it is, they don't gossip. They don't feel comfortable saying an unkind word about anyone in any context, which is remarkable.

John Bytheway (19:13)

I see that in John too. I've spent years with John. I think I have more pictures with John than I do with any of my children. John just doesn't do it. He just will not mock other people. And he refuses to gossip. Even when I try to mock and gossip about everyone, he just refuses to take part.

Hank Smith (19:33)

No, I'm not as good as you think I am. I can't live up to Your adjectives. But I do remember that talk that Elder Cree l Kofur gave. Remember where he said your name is safe in our home. Do you remember that?

John Bytheway (19:46)

I do remember that.

Hank Smith (19:48)

That idea of I need to live up to that better. But boy, that verse 50 is something. Calamity shall cover the mocker, the scorner shall be consumed. They that have watched for iniquity. It sounds like I'm just waiting for you to make a mistake. I'm looking at you real close. Shall be hewn down and cast into the fire. Wow, what a verse.

John Bytheway (20:09)

Yeah. And look at those three descriptors. Those who mock, scorn and watch for iniquity. If you're living that way, you spend a lot of time mocking, scorning, and watching for people to sin. According to verse 50, that's a pretty terrible place to be. You need to get out of there. Shima, you teach at BYU as well. I'm impressed. For the most part, the vast majority will occasionally have a student in class who will say something odd, say something off. And it's very rare for students to laugh or mock. And I have a view of all 200 of them right in front of me. And they'll smile, you know, they'll smile, but they.

Hank Smith (20:50)

They'll give you a knowing look, but.

John Bytheway (20:52)

They will not mock.

Shima Baphman (20:54)

Yeah, I actually think it's maybe harder for our generation because I do think one of the beautiful things about Gen Z is that they have more empathy than we did. I think we got used to. We thought it was okay to make fun of people. I mean, think of the terms we used to use that are no long appropriate to even say anymore that we regularly use. But they've just grown up in a more empathetic times. I think they're better at that. Maybe the 40 and up year olds need to think about this. And the younger people are like, of course I would never mock.

John Bytheway (21:21)

Right. Yeah, it is. Because you feel like maybe I'm getting back at someone I don't like. I really am impressed with what you said. That's a tool of the adversary. There are different ways to approach that. And though it might feel good, it's going to have a bad aftertaste. The Lord's not going to do that. I really like that. Shima.

Shima Baphman (21:43)

The third big theme I see with the signs of the coming is what I would call covenantal light. And this comes out in a few verses. But he says in verse 9 and 10, I have sent my everlasting covenant into the world to be a light into the world and to be a standard for my people and for the Gentiles to seek unto it, and to be a messenger before my face, to prepare the way before me. And in verse 28, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness and shall be a fullness of the Gospel. And we know that part of this light is God in Jesus Christ appearing to the boy Joseph Smith. But I think there's also this accountability that comes with our covenant. This covenant light requires us to do a little bit more. And as we Talked about Matthew 24, what is our role? Well, we also need to help the hungry and those that are in prison and those that are sick. We can't just hide away as recluses until the Savior comes, which is sometimes what we want to do. Right. With the Second Coming, it's like, let's ignore all the sin, but we can't ignore the suffering and say, well, people brought themselves, you know, brought this upon themselves. Because the Savior makes it very clear, we're supposed to be in our communities and serving. I consider my work with incarcerated as serving the Lord. And I had the opportunity, like you, John, a little while ago to visit the Bear Creek branch of the church in West Salt Lake City. And I remember meeting with some incredible saints there who volunteer and spend every day in the prison when they don't have to. They're volunteering there with people who are charged with murder and rape and a lot of them serving life sentences. Even though you see the suffering there, the 50 men I spoke to had hope in their Savior. I remember asking them, how many of you felt God's voice just get louder since you were incarcerated? And almost every hand went up because I believe that the Savior's gathering his people. As Elder Don Clark, I don't know if you know Him. He presides over all the prison branches in Utah. He says Jesus Christ is walking the halls of these prisons among those who have sinned in abhorrent ways. If we can share his light even with those in prison like he's doing, we can shine our covenantal light and be its messengers, as it says in verse nine, and before his face, and prepare the way for Him. There's a few things I wanted to talk about to maintain this light, this everlasting covenant light that we have in the gathering. One is to try to hear his voice today. This is talked about throughout, but on verse six, it says, hearken, O you people of the church, and hear my voice while it is called today, and harden not your hearts. Much of this Chapter is an admonition to perk up our ears, start seeing him everywhere with urgency, and focus on turning others to him. My son's best friend, Elder Scout Humphrey, is serving a Spanish speaking mission in Orlando, and he described recently that he and his companion were praying harder and more fervently than ever before. They prayed specifically to find a father that they could reach out to on social media who had a family and is prepared to receive the gospel. He describes. Not 10 minutes later, a man named John sends a message and they immediately call and he says, is this Jesus? They replied, kind of, we're friend of his because it was so quick. After he wrote, they both laughed and they set up a time to meet at the church building. Forty minutes later, Elder Humphrey and his companion are riding their bikes as fast as they ever have. They arrive at the chapel. John steps out of his truck with this bomber jacket. He's got this little ratty dog he describes named Nino. He's from Colombia. He's a father with a family, and he's ready to receive the gospel. They show him around the church and he stops at the baptismal font, and they explain how Jesus Christ command us all to be baptized, and it has to be done under the authority of God. And he takes a look around. He ties up Nino to the piano and he sits down. He says, well, how long is this font going to take to fill? They say, well, about two or three hours. Then he says, I can wait. The missionaries are like, well, you can't get baptized today, but could we do it next Sunday? And he says, okay, I guess I could wait nine days. But this is the urgency with which John wanted to be baptized and the urgency with which the missionaries were acting. It's such a beautiful thing. This whole chapter is admonishing us today to do this today. And I think, do I often act like that? I don't think I often do. And I think that was such a beautiful example to me.

Hank Smith (26:01)

Scripturally, it's often called today. So it's like you've got only today to prepare. But don't you think that's the phrase Hank is. We even have the hymn today while the sun shines. Work with a will today, today work while you may. It's this day of probation that since the. Okay, I'm giving you a probationary state to prepare because God is coming again. When I see today, I think, yeah, but the day's gonna end. And that's what we saw earlier. The harvest is ended and your soul is not saved. So I like the urgency. What a great story. Thanks, Shima.

Shima Baphman (26:34)

Oh, thanks. Another thing that I think, you know, as far as maintaining his covenantal light, is looking for him constantly. We talked a little bit earlier about verse 44, they shall look for me. I think part of our job in watching for Jesus is to turn to him daily, pray about how we can help usher in this. I think we should be doing it like as a little child, that's how I think about it. And when I think about as a mom driving home from BYU and walking in the door and I have all my kids around, right, my 17 year old doesn't look up. My 8 year old might come in in a few minutes and ask me if he can eat some ramen. My six year old comes within a first few minutes to give me a hug. But my 20 month old, she is standing at the back door from the time she hears the car driving down the driveway, giggling with excitement, needing to be in my arms like the minute I walk in. And it makes me think how am I waiting for the Savior? Am I waiting for him like a little child does with that excitement and recognition and the desire to look on his face and embrace him again. That's the kind of excitement we have when Christ tells us to be like a little child. That's the kind of thing I want to think about when I want to be waiting for him to come. Am I that excited? Am I waiting to hold his face and embrace him as my little toddler is? She can't let go of me for the first five minutes I enter the house. She just wants to hold me. Am I doing that? I think it's such a good reminder.

John Bytheway (27:55)

The Lord brings up and maybe you're going to do this later, Shima, but he brings up verse 56, the parable of the ten virgins. And it seems that these are those who were watching like your 20 month old. For they that are wise and have received the truth have taken the Holy Spirit as their guide. They have not been deceived. That's beautiful. That might be the recipe for becoming this. I'm ready. I'm ready and excited. I'm watching Hank.

Hank Smith (28:26)

I've got in my margin the opposites because I love to do that with scriptures. Those that are not wise have not received. And received to me means accepted in the scriptures that are not wise have not received the truth. And they have not taken the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit as their guide. And there are so many other guides out there willing to try to guide you that are not the Holy Ghost. And that's a kind of a sobering thought, isn't it? Well, I'm guided by social trends. There's so many false guides out there. And then, of course, they'd be deceived. And what better guide could there be than the Holy Ghost?

John Bytheway (29:06)

Shima, I think you'd agree it's about fidelity to Christ. In fact, there is this BYU devotional. I don't know if you've heard it, John. It's called Giving All Our Heart to Christ. It was just this last year. Pretty incredible devotional. I can't remember her name, but she was spectacular. And she actually brought up the parable of the 10 virgins. So here it is in section 45. And wonderfully, another coincidence. She spoke about it here. Let me tell you what she says, Shima, you might really enjoy this speaker. She said, in the Parable of the ten Virgins, Christ is the bridegroom and half of the virgins are not prepared and can't meet Him. We are all invited to see ourselves as these women. That's verse 57, tying back to Matthew 25. Those of us who aren't committed and don't fill our lamps with oil can't join him for the marriage feast. I don't imagine it's because Jesus forbids us to join Him. But just like in a marriage, when we lack fidelity to our spouse and put others first, we lack the intimacy to thrive in marriage and to be united. Similarly, in our relationship with Christ, there's nothing to hide. He knows our hearts, our secrets, and our preferred sins. And he still loves us. He loves us so much that he beckons us to come and be cleansed of our sins so that we can feel his love without reservation. That's a great commentary on verses 56 and 57. So we'll link this devotional on our show notes. It's called Let me Look who Gave It? Giving All Our Heart to Christ. Oh, wow. By Shima Bachman. So we hope everyone will go and listen to that this week. Is that scary? Shima given a BYU devotional? What's that like?

Shima Baphman (31:01)

Oh, man, I was shaking. My arms were physically like this. Like that. It was the most scary thing I've done besides getting on TikTok. I actually think that was scarier still.

John Bytheway (31:10)

Yeah, it was scarier still. BYU devotional. You're surrounded by friends usually.

Shima Baphman (31:16)

Yes, that's true.

John Bytheway (31:17)

Maybe not on TikTok.

Shima Baphman (31:19)

Yeah, that's exactly right. The next theme I wanted to talk about and beautiful verses where it talks about standing in holy places. The Lord promises that if his disciples stand in holy places and shall not be moved, that Zion will be established as this place of safety in verse 66 and 67. But how do we do that? Well, I think it's the opposite of actually, when you go back to verse 29, it's the opposite of turning our hearts from him because of the precepts of men. I think the more time that we spend in holy places, the more holiness that we seek. And Ezra Taft Benson said, holy men and women stand in holy places. And these holy places consist of our temples, chapels, homes and stakes of Zion. I remember during COVID how holy my home felt when my sons and my husband were blessing and passing the sacrament. There was only enough for every person in our family to take and how personal that felt. And I also was had the opportunity this last week to go to the transition branch of our church. It's basically a branch where people who can't attend anywhere else can go due to the type of sentence that they have. There's restrictions on the crime they committed. They can only go to this branch. They can't go to a home ward where there's children. And most of the people in this attendance in this branch are working to get their church membership back. As I remember going to this sacrament meeting, it's a worship service. What happens is they have someone come up and give a sacrament prayer and they read it. It's like a dry sacrament. There's no actual bread passed and no water passed because most of the people can't take the sacrament yet they haven't been rebaptized. I remember feeling it was the most holy time I've ever felt. This sitting in complete silence. Everyone's heads are bows, tears are shed. The power of the Spirit was stronger than anywhere I've ever felt in a sacrament meeting. And I never craved the bread and water more in my life. I have this opportunity to take this emblem of my Savior's body and his blood. They can't take it yet. And so are they yearning for that in tears because they can't take this symbol, this covenant anymore. I just felt so strongly that this is a place where God is dwelling here and God is helping them, trying to get to this place where they can come back.

John Bytheway (33:36)

Wow. If you guys both don't mind, let's talk about coming to Zion. What do you both think of when you think of this? Here? Here it is. 1831. Zion is on the Lord's mind. He keeps mentioning it. Eventually Joseph knows what we need to do, that we are going to build Zion. John, what comes to mind when you think of that word, Zion?

Hank Smith (34:03)

I have tried to ponder a place where everybody loves God and loves their neighbor. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think, would there even be a police department? Would there be fraud? Would there be stealing?

Shima Baphman (34:21)

I would be out of a job.

Hank Smith (34:24)

And wouldn't it be nice to be out of that job? I mean, imagine a place where everyone loves God and loves their neighbor and you drop your wallet somewhere, you know it's going to be found. The Doctrine and Covenant speaks of the cause of Zion. This is what we're working for. And I don't know if we'll ever get there. Isn't it wonderful to imagine that kind of a Zion? I think that's what was on the mind of the saints was this place where there would be such peace. And I know we'll have it after this life.

Shima Baphman (34:57)

Well, I think of Moses first being given this higher law. The Israelites aren't prepared. He goes back and gets the Ten Commandments. You think of Joseph Smith revealing this united order of a Zion society, and we're not ready for that yet. We know what this entails. It's loving everyone. It's being all things equal, that our lives are dedicated completely to Christ. I think it's a really good goal because I know I'm not there in my heart or in my life, in the way I treat people. And we know throughout the history of the world that God has tried to get us up there. He wants us to be in Zion. We know the day will come when Christ will come and we will be there. Can we just get closer? Is there a way to get even closer than we've ever gotten before? I hope so.

John Bytheway (35:43)

There's a wonderful talk that I think of often from Elder Christofferson. Three simple words. Come to Zion. That's in verse 71. Come to Zion. And he lays out in this talk, how do we become Zion? And he talks about so much. One of the things he talks about is the Savior was critical of some of the early saints for their lustful desires. These were people who lived in a non television, non filmed, non Internet world, in a world now awash in sexualized images and music. Are we free from lustful desires and their evils? Far from pushing the limits of modest dress or indulging in the vicarious immorality of pornography, we are to hunger and thirst after righteousness to come to Zion. It is not enough for you or me. To be somewhat less wicked than others. We are to become not only good, but holy men and women. Recalling Elder Neal A. Maxwell's phrase, let us once and for all establish our residence in Zion and give up the summer cottage in Babylon. And the rest of the talk is just as good of how do we become Zion. And he says, one of the things that you said earlier, Shima, in the way we interact with each other, he says, zion is Zion because of the character, attributes and faithfulness of her citizens. If we would establish Zion in our homes, branches, wards and stakes, we must rise to this standard. We become unified in one heart and one mind. We become individually and collectively a holy people. We care for the poor and needy with such effectiveness that we eliminate poverty among us. We cannot wait until Zion comes for these things to happen. Zion will only come as they happen. I have a pet theory that's just Hank. Chapter one, verse one. No one should ever teach this. But I just wonder if we say, lord, when are you going to come again? And he said, I'm waiting on you. The king can't come unless there's a kingdom to come too. So here we are, both waiting on each other. As soon as he comes, we'll build Zion. And he's saying, I'm not coming until you build Zion. Maybe that's why he says, no one knows the hour of my coming because you are guys are taking so long. No one knows when you're going to have Zion built. I love this idea that we're going to build a place like you said, John, where it's just wonderful. We can do that. We can start in our homes. I remember our friend Alex Baugh saying that their little cul de sac that he lives in their Zion there. The way they interact with each other and hopefully that spreads out. This is back to Elder Christofferson. Come to Zion, he said. I remember the story of a Vietnamese family that fled Saigon in 1975 and ended up living in a small mobile home in Provo, Utah. Kind of like Shima. How did a girl from Iran end up living in Provo? And here's this Vietnamese family. How are we In Provo, Utah? A young man in the refugee family became the home teaching companion to a brother Johnson who lived nearby with his large family. And the boy related the following story. One day brother Johnson noticed that our family had no kitchen table. He appeared the next day with an odd looking but very functional table that fit nicely against the trailer wall across from the kitchen sink and counters. I say odd looking because two of the table's legs matched the tabletop, and two did not. Also, several wooden pegs stuck out along one edge of the worn surface. Soon we used this unique table daily for food preparation and for eating some quick meals. We still ate our family meals while we sat on the floor in true Vietnamese fashion. One evening, I stood inside Brother Johnson's front door as I waited for him before a home teaching appointment. There in the nearby kitchen, I was surprised to see it was a table practically identical to the one they had given to my family. The only difference was where our table had pegs, the Johnson's table had holes. I then realized that, seeing our need, this charitable man had cut his kitchen table in half and had built two new legs for each half. It was obvious that the Johnson family could not fit around this small piece of furniture. They probably didn't fit comfortably around it when it was whole. Throughout my life, the young man says, this kind act has been a powerful reminder of true giving. The prophet Joseph Smith said, we ought to have the building up of Zion as our greatest object.

Shima Baphman (40:36)

So beautiful. I think it's so beautiful because he's giving of himself. I think that's what Zion is giving when it's hard not giving your extra change in your pocket, but it's giving up of your own table for someone else to have one. Wow, that's beautiful. One thing I wanted to point out, because it's just so heartbreaking, is in verse 51 to 53, where it talks about those who didn't recognize Jesus Christ as the Son of God. And then shall the Jews look upon me and say, what are these wounds in thy hands and thy feet. I think about the Jewish people coming to Christ and recognizing him for who he is, the Son of God, and then weeping and lamenting because they persecuted their king. There's a beautiful book called the Case for Christ by Leo Strobel. Have you guys read that book where he describes a man named Lapides who grew up Jewish, his parents divorced. He has this kind of spiritual quest that involves drugs and music and Buddhism. He said that he accepted Satan before he accepted God. Then he has this amazing experience where he's shown this Old Testament by a Christian friend. And he says, look, Jesus prophesied to the Jews. And then lapidus reads Isaiah 53, a couple verses he might have read. He was despised and rejected by mankind. A man of suffering, familiar with pain. He was taken from prison, from judgment. He was crushed for our iniquities. That punishment that brought us peace was on him by his Wounds, we are healed. He was led by a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep before the shearers is silent. So he did not open his mouth. And then Lapides doesn't trust this Old Testament his friend gives him. So he asked his grandma, he says, grandma, send me a Jewish Bible because I don't believe what they're telling me. Then he reads it, and he's like, this is the same. There's four dozen predictions in all, right? From Micah, saying he's from Bethlehem and Genesis and Jeremiah, who's betrayed for silver and Psalms. And we read in Matthew, that's a gospel intended for the Jews. He reads, son of Abraham, son of David. He didn't even have the Book of Mormon, which there's so much more there, too. Lapidy says he had to clean up his life because God spoke to his heart. And he ends up converting to Christianity. And he says he's also converted in his mind because he reasons, well, Jesus could have followed the prophecy that he marched into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey because he knew that was foretold, but he didn't have control over the fact that the Sanhedrin offered Judas 30 pieces of silver to betray him, or how did he arrange his ancestry, or his method of execution, or that the soldiers gambled for his clothing, or that his legs were unbroken on the cross. He couldn't have arranged for all of these things. So I just love this realization. Can we come to the fact that Jesus is the Christ sooner? And it's heartbreaking when those do not realize who he is and who he was.

John Bytheway (43:21)

Yeah, that is absolutely part of this section. Sin can destroy and can make you blind to something that's right in front of you. Oh, that is hard.

Hank Smith (43:33)

Abinadi had his own case for Christ moment when he said, what are you teaching these people? And the wicked priest said, love Moses. And he said, why don't you keep it? Then he quoted Isaiah 53 what you just quoted. That's Mosiah 14 in our book of Mormon. How could you have missed this verse 51, Hank, this verse you showed us, what are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet? Because we're hearing Zechariah 13:6. Section 45 adds, and in thy feet. Then he will say, those with which I was ruined in the house of my friends. And then section 45 adds more than Zechariah 13. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God. And that's not in Zechariah but wow, right there in section 45.

Shima Baphman (44:25)

Such a powerful witness.

John Bytheway (44:27)

Yeah, John, I love that. I am, I am, I am. Verse 52 Shima, we're coming to the end here. What do you want to look at?

Shima Baphman (44:38)

Let's talk about Satan and his influence in our hearts and minds.

John Bytheway (44:44)

That's just not something we say often on let's Talk about Satan.

Shima Baphman (44:48)

Verse 55 it reads, Satan was bound, had no place in the hearts of the children of men. And I want to think about what is Satan's place in my heart in these days? How do I feel most of the time? Is it full of the love of God or is Satan influenced my mind and heart? And I want to think about these two questions in order. So first is have we left any real estate in our heart for Satan? Because if we have hate at all, then we're allowing Satan to enter. I often try to think and ask my students, do we have any carve outs for people that you permit yourself to hate? Even if it's people that have wronged us or quote unquote bad people? When we have any hatred for any person at all, then we're allowing Satan into our heart. Because God can't abide when we harbor resentment and hatred. We can't love Jesus with all our heart and leave room for hate. Jesus loves all of us. He wants us to love him not with 85% of our heart, but with all our heart. Which means Satan is ejected. It's hard for someone like me who teaches criminal law because I'm regularly confronted with people who have harmed others in horrible ways and made them suffer until I really try to grapple with these issues and think about Christ's commandments at the same time to love those who despitefully use and persecute us. I realize you know, a Zion society has no room for Satan's influence. Loving all doesn't mean that there should be no accountability for people who commit crimes. But I don't think we have the choice to not forgive even those who have deeply harmed us when we covenant to forgive all men. This is this radical irrational love that Jesus Christ invites us to have. It's the higher law, it's the Zion. As you were talking about, Hank, the impossibly hard thing that we can do. I think it's impossible to do it without the hourly help of Jesus Christ and His atonement. Because my students are always asking me, how did your mom forgive the person who turned her in? Right? How do you forgive people that have harmed you? And I say it's impossible but for Jesus Christ and the power of his atonement. And I think it's humanly impossible to forgive without him. As we think about him being the living water, if we drink of it, we're told we're never to be thirsty again. How we do that is because we have to keep going back. Just like with drinking. We're never meant to drink once and never need water. We need constant water. But how beautiful that when we could go back to him with this well of his atonement to allow us to forgive and be free of hate, that's the way we forgive. It's through Jesus Christ, and it's not one time. I think it's accomplished through turning to the source of love and living water over and over as necessary.

John Bytheway (47:19)

I'm glad you brought up the idea of Satan being bound and he has no more place in our hearts because it gives me another opportunity to bring up this awesome BYU devotional called Giving All Our Heart to Christ. You have this wonderful section on the heart, and you say the heart, as an organ, cleanses our blood, symbolizes how the Savior is our ultimate source of purification. And you talk about allowing the Lord into your heart. You talk about this refugee woman who you helped mentor, even in the middle of a difficult pregnancy. And then I was really touched by this story. Shima, you said. I spoke to a woman recently about her son who had been engaged in serious criminal activity, bringing her great sorrow. She described praying that God would help her son. The very next day he was arrested and put on trial. The woman and I spoke before her son's sentencing, and I was initially shocked when she asked me to not pray that the judge would give him the lightest sentence possible, but rather that she would give him the sentence that would most help him to change. The mother described the way being arrested had opened her son's heart to repentance. He had described the jail where he was first taken as hollowed ground because of the transformation he experienced there. And then you bring it around to talk about each of us. Are we open to leave our plans and our favorite sins and give him our whole heart? Sometimes, Shima, maybe not having any place for Satan in our hearts can involve some difficult moments. Like being arrested was for this young man. Maybe it's not that easy.

Shima Baphman (49:10)

I think changing for a lot of people ends up some sort of accountability and punishment. I think for the inmates I've talked to and prisoners even released, they often say they have this come to Jesus moment when they're in this Cold jail cell because that helps them to reconcile what's happened in their life and change.

Hank Smith (49:29)

I've heard someone say that some children are compliant. Some are from all appearances compliant. Some are rebellious. Some are oppositionally defiant. I've heard it called the Lord's law of learning. I don't know who said that. I want to find out. Some will only learn by the things which they suffer. Or like Adam and Eve, they will learn by their own experience. What you just said, Shima. They're in prison and having that come to Jesus moment. Some people will hear the gospel and accept it. Some have to learn the hard way. But isn't it wonderful that they learn and that God is in relentless pursuit of everybody? Even they can come to him in a prison, like you said.

John Bytheway (50:12)

Seems like a beautiful moment, Shima, where Satan is controlling a heart, basically has stole a heart. He is pushed out. He has no more place in my heart.

Hank Smith (50:22)

Hank, I love how you in youth talk, talk about distinguishing your enemies from your friends. And this is a similar thing. Where did that thought come from? Is that an enemy or a friend that would say that sort of a thing?

John Bytheway (50:35)

Yeah. That's a scary thing to watch a teenager or even an adult get your friends and your enemies mixed up. How long are you going to last in the battle if you think your parents are your enemies and that celebrity is your friend or that influencer is your friend? John, how long would you in a war if you thought your enemies were your friends and your friends were your enemies?

Hank Smith (50:57)

Well, this is why I love, as you know, Hank, that Amalaki Lahanti story. Because he doesn't come at him with a javelin or a sword or a spear. He comes at him with a refreshing beverage.

John Bytheway (51:09)

Yeah.

Hank Smith (51:10)

And he poisons him by degrees. Maybe a beverage because he confuses an enemy with a friend.

John Bytheway (51:16)

Yeah, man.

Shima Baphman (51:18)

Verse 58. Speaking of Satan, I think there's something that we sometimes forget that's still a commandment on this earth today. It says the earth shall be given unto him for an inheritance. And they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation. The part about multiplying and waxing strong reminds me of the initial commandment to Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth and continue to bring souls to have this mortal experience. I think about how what we're dealing with in our society today, marriage rates are declining. A recent study that showed that 57% of single adults are no longer looking to date, there's a lot of confusion about Women wanting to be alone and not wanting to date. There's a lot of people that are rejecting marriage and children. And I do think that's a ploy of Satan. It's prosperity. During all of human history and of course, during Jesus's time was people getting married and having prosperity. Think about all of the parables about the bridegroom and the hen with the chicken. There was just so much beauty in having these key Abrahamic blessings be fulfilled, having posterity, having fruitfulness and seed. Today, even the science of happiness shows that it's still having posterity eternally revolves around our posterity and whether we have them in this life or the next. If we don't have an opportunity in this life, that must be our focus. Because when we multiply, we wax stronger unto God that sometimes forgotten these days, this important commandment to multiply and replenish the earth.

John Bytheway (52:46)

I've heard somewhere that you can have joy and rejoicing in your posterity.

Hank Smith (52:52)

There's a proverb that says children are like arrows. Happy is the man who hath his quiver full of them. Or something that's a proverb or a.

John Bytheway (53:01)

Psalm or something that does need to be our goal in a world that's increasingly saying, no, no children, you don't want that. You're not going to be happy. Don't get married, have children, be free.

Shima Baphman (53:15)

And also, it's Satan's ploy. He wants us to be lonely and not be able to have a body and have kids like he can. He can't have kids. He wants us to be miserable and not be able to have these blessings of our posterity that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they crave for these things. They begged God for these blessings of posterity, seed without end. And for us to reject those without even giving it a chance. I think it's heartbreaking.

John Bytheway (53:38)

Shima, before we let you go, I have a question. In the last year, as I've worked with you, you have something I think a lot of us want, which is you're genuinely happy for other people. Sometimes we want to be happy for other people. Right, John? Oh, I'm so glad you got that blessing. I didn't want that myself. You have this genuine joy when other people succeed, and that's hard to get. And then hearing you talk about these inmates that you see with such compassion, John, have you noticed it's just so common for. Oh, I just see these people and the suffering they're going through. So how does one become like that, Sheema? How have you become someone who is genuinely happy when other people succeed. Because look at the parables. When people get blessed. How many people in the parable say, well, how come they got that blessing?

Hank Smith (54:33)

Laborers in the vineyard. Yeah. The Book of Mormon gives us that Shima verse. I do not joy in my success alone, but look at the success of these my brethren. I pass out. I'm so excited for him.

John Bytheway (54:47)

Alma 29 yeah, Shima. For a lot of us, we want to be that way, and we have to fake it till we make it. You are genuinely this way. How did that happen?

Shima Baphman (54:58)

I don't know. I definitely am not perfect at any of the things you talked about. I try to be. You know, when Satan does put those envious thoughts that we all initially have, I recognize that as him, and I try to remove it and try to have love for people. Particularly when it comes to the incarcerated, I actually don't see myself as too different than them. I think it's a lot easier for me to feel that kinship with people that are incarcerated. My mom was incarcerated. I remember when I went to the prison recently, I said, I've dedicated my career, I said, to the inmates inside prison to ending mass incarceration. And I've never gotten a room full of complete and total applause as that. And I was like, we're one. We're the same. Because I do see myself as a sinner. I do see myself as someone who sins all the time, continuously, and that needs the atonement of my savior, Jesus Christ. And I think when I focus on that and don't let the prideful thoughts that Satan might put that make me think I'm better somehow, because I'm not in prison because I didn't commit a crime. If I can focus on him, that's where I can love these people genuinely as my brothers and sisters. I truly feel that way about them. I do. And it's because of Jesus Christ, and.

John Bytheway (56:07)

Only through him I thought of you. They've received the truth and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide. Shima, how do you want to wrap this up? What message do you have for those listening?

Shima Baphman (56:18)

Some people say that Joseph Smith was either a charlatan or a prophet. But I don't think it's that simple. I believe that Joseph Smith was a mouthpiece for the Lord, that he's a chosen prophet who did almost more than any other human to bring people closer to Christ. I believe he's a prophet of God for the latter days, a revelator who brought important progress for the continuing restoration of the gospel, including the most sacred covenants and priesthood power that we have and make in the Temple. I can bear personal witness of the power of the Book of Mormon in bringing me closer to Jesus Christ than any other book. I can also recognize that Joseph Smith was an imperfect man, even though he was chosen. And there's a lot I don't understand in the history of our church and the history of God's dealings with humanity. Just like I don't understand how Moses killed a man and then was revealed the secrets of the universe. And I don't understand how Jacob stole Isaac's birthright through conspiracy with his mom, but yet was a covenant keeper. I don't understand how Israelite prophets believed that God told them to kill all the non covenant people. And I don't understand polygamy. I do know that God delivers his people and I do understand that Jesus Christ's atonement is for everyone. And I know that God wants to spread the light and the love that comes from being a member of this church to all who can access it. So I'm not going to avoid the history of God's dealings with men and women because I know that when I dive into the history with faith and with the Holy Spirit, the fruits will be good because this is God's true and living church. I teach this course at BYU called the Pursuit of How Following God's Laws Brings Individual and Societal Happiness. I designed this class with an LDS audience in mind. So this is my first semester teaching. After three years of reading, prepping through a true registration miracle, I had the student join my class named Julie. She's a Palestinian, she's Christian. She escaped during the October 7th war through many miracles, including having the doors to Israel briefly open so that she could make her passport appointment just in time. She said there's 15 people ahead of her in the line trying to get visas. Every single one of them's denied, but she gets a five year visa. She tells us on the first day of class that her only interaction with the Church of Jesus Christ the Latter Day Saints before coming to BYU last summer was when she was introduced to a missionary. And I hope someone watching this will connect him with her. But he was at the Jerusalem center eight years ago and he asked her, he said, I can't proselyte to you, but what can I pray for you for? And she wrote down in his book, she said, she wrote, I'd like to get a Master's in law in the United States. Here she is now eight years later at BYU Law getting an LLM among a group of BYU students who are unabashedly bearing testimony of the gospel. So in this class, I'm nervous a little, because we're lawyers. We dig deep, we don't ignore any bad facts, and we do a trial of the Book of Mormon witnesses. The Book of Mormon witnesses all end up leaving the church. Two come back, but they all bear witness that they saw the angel Moroni and he showed them the Book of Mormon. They never deny this till their death. And in fact, they're very clear to light up with the spirit every time they have the opportunity to witness of this. After this trial, I'm a little worried because I'm raising questions for this woman named Julie. She knows very little about the church because church history is complicated. So anyway, I write her after this class experience where she acts as a lawyer interviewing Oliver Cowdery and studies all the evidence, both good and bad. And I ask her what she thinks. She said, this was such a spiritual experience. As I was reading the material, I didn't want to stop. She says it's incredible no one would return. She's referring to Oliver coming back unless they were absolutely certain it was the right place. That realization was so powerful to me. Then she says to me, this confirms one thing. The LDS Church is the true church. She says, unquote. And I was shaking getting this email. I mean, as you can imagine, another one of my students, his name's Nephi, he acted out the role of Oliver Cowdery, unprompted by anything, wrote his family and friends after this experience. He wrote, God used the witnesses time away from the church as a powerful means of reassuring the witnesses sanity, trustworthiness and character. And at no point did they deny their witness. And he says, I'm actually grateful they left the church because of how they spent the rest of their lives proving their witness outside of the church. I have another student who is a more recent member. She's never read the Book of Mormon, but after doing and examining all this evidence, she says, I'm inspired to read the Book of Mormon. Now, what this tells me is that when we diligently read God's Revelations and Covenants with his people, which is the doctrine covenants, when we study our history, our testimonies will only grow stronger because this is Christ, true and living church.

John Bytheway (61:05)

Amen. What a beautiful finish. Shima, we are so happy that we invited you back. Thank you for coming back.

Shima Baphman (61:15)

Thank you. I'm so grateful I could talk about the Doctrine of Covenants. It really has a special place for me is in gaining my testimony.

John Bytheway (61:21)

That's wonderful, John. Section 45. As we dig in to these sections, you think, there's a couple of nice phrases in here I can see. But then someone like Shima comes along and says, no, look at this. Actually, look at this, too. It's like having a tour guide who.

Hank Smith (61:40)

Has the experience taking a ton of notes today. You've blessed my life, Shima. Thank you.

Shima Baphman (61:45)

Sometimes you just need an amateur to look at it. You guys are the experts.

John Bytheway (61:50)

Not at all. As we find out over and over.

Hank Smith (61:53)

And over again, over and over, don't we?

John Bytheway (61:55)

It's very humbling to go, oh, well, that's. There's another thing I've never seen before.

Hank Smith (62:00)

I used to think I understood this. Yeah, yeah.

John Bytheway (62:03)

But she. Thank you for spending your time with us. We'll thank Ryan for allowing us to steal you away for a few hours.

Shima Baphman (62:09)

Thank my baby Tezza. She's the one that's really going to complain about it.

John Bytheway (62:12)

Yeah. And she's probably waiting at the door right now. And I love that. Just like we should be waiting for the Lord and his return. With that, we want to thank Professor Shima Baughman for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen. We always thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And every episode, we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. He was genuinely happy, like Shima is. When other people succeed, that's what he wanted. He wanted to see other people succeed and do well. So we always remember Steve. We hope you'll join us next week. We are going to take on the next sections of the Doctrine and Covenants on Follow Him. Thank you for joining us on today's episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today's show notes and transcripts are on our website, followhim. Co. That's followhim Co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nilsson, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, and Annabel Sorensen. Whatever questions or problems you have, you.

Shima Baphman (63:41)

The answer is always found in the.

John Bytheway (63:43)

Life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him.

Shima Baphman (63:48)

Follow him.