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- [00:01]
Hank
And now for part two with Dr. Brent Topp. Doctrine and Covenants 106 to 108. When I'm looking at these verses 23 and 24, it takes me back. And maybe you were going to talk about this because you said three cases. This revelation is given when 1835. Boy, that succession in the presidency thing. It sounds like when I read some saints, for example, and people are wondering, after the death of Joseph Smith, what do we do? And saints, it says, Brigham Young took his hand down on his knee and where are the keys? They are right here. He seemed to understand, okay, at the death of the president of the church, verse 24, then the 12 represent a quorum. Am I getting that right? Was that clear in their minds, or did it take a while to go, hey, wait a minute, Joseph talked about this.
- [00:57]
Dr. Brent Topp
Yeah, I think that's a very good question. I don't think that it was clear in 1835 when this revelation is given, even though the Lord is spelling it out. We look at it now in hindsight and say, wow, that's the perfect explanation for how it's done. But I think that's why it. Prophet Joseph Smith is teaching the 12 in Nauvoo about what it means to be a quorum. And when he brings them home from their missions and said, I need you to stay around here. We're going to do leadership training. And then his great charge when he said, I'm rolling off of my shoulders onto yours. The keys of the kingdom.
- [01:36]
Hank
You just mentioned a minute ago, the mission to the British Isles. I have just thought how brilliant and inspired that was to have. It was like you said, the 12, but I think there was nine of them. And then Orson Hyde left to go dedicate the Holy Land, the quorum, anyway, to go operate independently when they couldn't text or call across the Atlantic Ocean to learn to operate as a quorum. So they had some experience of that when they came back and after the martyrdom in 1844.
- [02:12]
Dr. Brent Topp
Oh, absolutely. Again, that's another example of the evolution of the structure of the church. You look at not only when the apostles were there, but when the apostles go home. And you got Joseph Fielding, they're running the church in Great Britain. He hasn't been a member of the church all that long himself. I thought about that with missionaries, since we started talking about missionaries, I thought, how did they do missionary work where all they had was the Book of Mormon? They didn't have Preach My Gospel. They didn't have zone conferences. Well, they had The Spirit and they had the revelations. The organization of the church is also one of the great leadership training, proving grounds that we have. Before I get to the 70s, our listeners are going to just say, top, stick to one thing. We got to take Dramamine. When you're talking here, if you jump over to verse 27 and it's talking about these quorums and the unanimity, that is another brilliant, absolutely brilliant leadership concept. If I had to have absolutely unanimous agreement, consent and support when I was dean, I would have been as old as Methuselah before we could get anybody to agree whether the sun was shining outside. You read accounts in church history where presidents of the church had very, very pressing things in front of them, important decisions to make. But until they had all the first presidency and all the 12 on the same page in agreement and ready to move forward, they would not move forward. That is what that revelation is teaching us. Every decision made by these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same. That is, every member in each quorum must be agreed to its decisions. And in order to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other. I love that. Power and validity. The principle of unanimity is not just consensus. The principle of unanimity is power. The Lord bestows power when his servants are unified. As we serve in leadership positions, we know how that is. As a bishop, as a stake president, I relied so much on my counselors. If I had counselors that were not comfortable with something that we were going forward with, even though I held the keys of presidency in that entity, I knew that I was not going to go forward. I could not pull rank and say, we, we're going to do this anyway. Because I am the bishop or I am the stake president, it was because I wanted the power of heaven to accompany those decisions. That's the principle of unanimity. I think it's a genius or a better way of saying it, it is divine inspiration. Then you come down and see in verse 29 what the Lord says. Okay, well, now, if push comes to shove and you have to do majority in governmental circles, I'm not sure we even get majorities when you think of the natural man, institutions of the earth. But when he says, if you have to do majority, just recognize it's not going to have the same power and validity. This is just an application and may not be that way in every marriage, in every family. But for Wendy and me, this principle applies in our marriage. That is one no vote means no. That's just the way we've approached. No pulling rank, no throwing fits. It's just principle of unanimity. If you want to have the power of heaven with decisions you mentioned before.
- [06:32]
Hank
Well, because I'm the bishop or I'm the stake president. When I look at verse 30 and I see the decisions of these quorums, or either of them, are to be made in all righteousness, in holiness, in lowliness of heart, meekness and long suffering, it's different. Can you remember Elder Holland talking about, I think it was at the time when President Hunter was made president of the church. Elder Holland said, can you imagine if this were a corporation? He talked about the corporate infighting would have been intense. But in the way these quorums work, it's because nobody is seeking office. Whoever got up in general conferences said, yeah, I'm the right man for the job. Yeah, they should have chosen me. I've got the resume and yeah, I got this.
- [07:21]
Dr. Brent Topp
Unfortunately in 1844, someone did kind of do that.
- [07:27]
Hank
Going way back. Verse 30 is talking about, this doesn't work without Christlike principles. I like looking at this whole section about what does it teach me about Christ here. There we see meekness, lowly in heart, patient, long suffering, faith, virtue. Instead of the corporate infighting you might talk about, look what we're talking about. That qualifies us for the work.
- [07:53]
Dr. Brent Topp
I've heard Elder Bednar in leadership training meetings say that the quorum of the 12, the principle of unanimity, doesn't mean that there isn't spirited discussion, that there is spirited discussion and there is disagreement, but they allow it to come together. Not that you're giving up your position on something, but that you allow the Lord to work on you till you get to that point. You look at verse 30, but then look at verse 31. Because this leadership principle is Christlike leadership. It says, because the promise is if these things abound in them, they shall not be unfruitful in the knowledge of the Lord. They know God's will, they know God's voice. They've heard the voice. And I know the apostles will say we're not perfect. I'm sure they have bad days like mission presidents. But when you look at those traits in verse 30, my association with senior brethren of the church, they characterize those traits. They characterize those traits and they seek that humility because they know what they have to have in order to know the mind and will of God.
- [09:14]
Hank
Amen to the priesthood and authority of that man. If it's the other Way where I got this. I'm so good at this. What is the Doctrine and Covenants? It condemns people who are seeking to excel.
- [09:28]
Dr. Brent Topp
Well, fortunately, the Church doesn't adopt my mantra of strive to be mediocre. They have the mantra strive to be Christlike. That's what it is there.
- [09:37]
John
Brent, I have a question. I know we have so many more verses to cover, but I think this is a good point to ask it. We live in a culture in 2025 at least of distrust of organizations, of bosses, of the man who's running the show. But here I'm seeing 107, 22, the first presidency. The quorum of the 12 is upheld by the confidence, faith and prayer of the Church. Then the verse John read in verse 30. These are holy men and women in lowliness of heart, meekness, long suffering. What do we do in a culture that is hitting up against the Church? Because I trust these church leaders, but I can sense that some of my brothers and sisters don't.
- [10:30]
Dr. Brent Topp
But it's not a blind trust. It is a trust because you've seen how your life has been blessed. There are those by very virtue of their experiences, think, oh, wait a second. If there's a bureaucracy, there has to be distrust and there has to be some form of corruption. Well, let me bear testimony to a couple of things here. Yes, there is indeed bureaucracy in the Church. I have encountered it head on. But it doesn't demean the fact that that God is going to work through his chosen servants according to these principles by virtue of the keys of the priesthood. That's really what it is. When I understand the doctrine of keys, when I understand the doctrine of presiding quorums, then I can begin to have that kind of trust. When I've held keys and when I recognize that the Lord honors keys more than he honors even competence. Now, first presidency and the 12 are pretty competent brethren. Last I checked, they are excellent. But they will all tell you that their competence in their previous lives as business leaders, lawyers, doctors, educators, all of that pales in comparison to hearing the voice of the Lord and seeing how the Lord honors keys of the priesthood. As a mission president, when I was called, I had a zillion ideas of all the things that I was going to do, things that I was going to take my BYU experience, I was going to do all those things. It did not take me probably even one transfer, until the Lord humbled me and helped me to realize, I don't want you to do it your way. I want you to do it my Way. Ready to move to the 70.
- [12:36]
John
Let's keep going.
- [12:37]
Dr. Brent Topp
Yes. I heard President Boyd K. Packer in a leadership conference say this is the day and age of the 70. As the church has become so international and so spread out, when you think of the hundreds of nations that the Church is organized in, you're only going to have 12 apostles. Rarely do you have more than three in the first presidency. The 70 are the hands and arms and legs and feet of the two presiding quorums. In a way, we could even go one step further and say this is the day and age of the Area 70 that the Area 70s are carrying so much of the load of the Church in building up and regulating the affairs of the Church under the direction of the presidency of the 70, under the direction of the 12. Nobody could have imagined that when section 107 was given. I don't think they envisioned the 70 the way that we envision the 70 now. I know they didn't. They were primarily going to go out as missionaries until 1986. That was the primary role of 70s. The first Council of the 70 was to look after the stake quorums of 70 that were primarily Stake missionaries. It was a revelation given to President Kimball that said, we have reached the point now where the Seventy as a presiding quorum must now rise up to take its place as one of the presiding quorums of the Church. You'll remember that State quorums of the 70 were done away with. They then met with their High priest group or the Elders Quorum. We had stake missionaries. We have ward missionaries. We all do missionary work. But the 70 are not just responsible for missionary work. They build up and regulate the affairs of the church. The 70 are a presiding quorum of the Church. And go down to verse 26. I'm going to come back to verse 25. But verse 26, as a presiding quorum of the Church, they form a quorum equal in authority to that of the 12 special witnesses or apostles just named. Well, wait a second. This is a question that comes up all the time. Are they a presiding Quorum? Yes. Are they equal to the 12 in the same manner as the 12 is equal to the first presidency when there is not a first presidency? Now think of that. The 70 quorum equal to the 12 who are equal to the first presidency. But when those other presiding quorums do not exist, there are things that are done now by delegation and by authority that do not necessarily require keys. For example, it was a 70 that called me as a Stake President and conferred the keys of presidency upon me. He didn't have any keys, but he received the authority under the keys of the quorum of the twelve Apostle by assignment. When I served as a counselor to bob millett and a young, single adult stake presidency, when bob had a heart attack, I was the first counselor. I had to do the exact same things that a stake president did for a period of time when I didn't have any keys conferred upon me. But I got a letter from the president of the quorum of the 12 authorizing me to be able to function in that capacity as though keys had been conferred upon me. There was a delegation of authority just by word. When the 70s go out to general conferences or to other assignments, they get a letter of assignment from those who hold the keys. When I was called to be a sealer when Covid is happening, it used to be the sealers were all given the sealing authority by a member of the first presidency. And then it went to some with the 12. With COVID nobody was going up to church headquarters. The president of the church guards the sealing authority really, really tightly. He holds that sealing power. I was stunned when the temple president of the Mount timpanogos temple said, I have a letter here in my hand from president Russell m. Nelson Authorizing me to set you apart as a sealer in the Mount timpanogos temple and to give you the sealing authority now. And then he said, I want you to see in this letter that president nelson had specified exactly what was supposed to be said in that ordinance. That's all the president of the temple gave was what president nelson had written in that letter. It said, specifically, upon the direct authorization and delegation of keys by president russell m. Nelson, I thou da da da da. That's just an aside on the 70. But then you just see another example of redundancy in the church's succession system. That's why it is so profound. When president packer says that we're living in the day and age of the 70, that the 70 and I said earlier, a 70 is a 70 is a 70. If you have an area 70 coming to your stake in conference, we are to give heed to him just as much as a General Authority 70, and in some respects just as much as a member of the 12 or the first presidency, because they are. Now we back up in verse 25. The 70, they're called to preach the gospel too, and to build up and regulate the affairs of the church in all the world. But then comes this to be especial Witnesses unto the Gentiles. The 70 are special witnesses of the name of Christ in their assignment. They just don't have apostolic keys. The apostolic keys are what give them the authority and power. You see how these presiding quorums and the President sees of the high priesthood are able to administer in all spiritual blessings of the Church. It's overwhelming. We've only done a third of the verses 33 through 35. Also give responsibilities of the 12 and the 70. Then down into verse 38 as well.
- [20:03]
Hank
Can you tell us, does a mission president have keys and where did those keys come from?
- [20:09]
Dr. Brent Topp
Absolutely, positively in both cases. When I was called and set apart as a mission president the first time, 20 plus years ago in Illinois, I was set apart by President Boyd k. Packer. The second time, three years ago in 2022, I was set apart by Elder Garrett Gong. The apostolic keys were exercised so that I was set apart as the mission president of a particular mission. I was given the keys for that calling. Then I was given specific responsibilities and charges. When you were set apart as a bishop, same thing you were called. If you hadn't been a bishop before you were ordained a bishop, you were set apart as a bishop of such and such a ward. Then you have the keys conferred upon you to administer in the temporal and spiritual responsibilities of your ward. Then specific responsibilities of temporal and spiritual are enumerated by the stake president. You were set apart as a judge in Israel. You were given responsibilities over the finances of the Church. You were set apart as the president of the Aaronic Priesthood. You were set apart as a presiding High priest in the Word. All of these specific things. Same thing. When a member of the quorum of the 12, he's ordained, set apart, given all of the keys of the kingdom and given a charge and specific responsibilities of what the Lord by revelation has given. This has been a question I've had with my colleagues. So I've asked a lot of 70s and I say, do you get keys? And they said no. We are given delegated authority. We give specific authority as a 70 to preach the Gospel and to be a special witness of Christ in all the world. But they are not given the keys, succession keys or keys of presidency in the traditional way that we think of. But they are able to exercise all the authority necessary of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, particularly by delegation, by assignment. And they have that same authority. The 12 officiate under the direction of the presidency, the 70 act in the name of the Lord under the direction of the 12, the 12 have certain responsibilities, going out and opening up the nations of the earth. Then you come down to verse 39, 38, you can see the 70 go out when they're needed. They go out and fill the necessary callings in various places of the world. That's why a 70 came and called me as a stake president and set me apart. That's why you have area 70s going out to stake conferences and doing things. But then verse 39 is a really interesting one. That is the duty of the 12 in all the large branches of the church, which we would then say are stakes to ordain. And as the church has grown and evolved, the word ordain might be a little different there. Now we would say maybe approve or sustain the name to have ordained evangelical ministers. If you look down in your footnotes, that is a patriarch, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has the specific responsibility for patriarchs. When a stake president determines that there is a need for a patriarch in his stake or an additional patriarch, in some cases he makes a recommendation to the office of the quorum of the twelve apostles, then the twelve consider that in direct revelation in section 107, they then approve and then authorize. It used to be the 12 ordained all of the patriarchs. Then it probably was the 70 ordained patriarchs when they would go to stake conferences. Now, stake presidents are authorized to ordain patriarchs in their stake, but they don't hold the office of patriarch. And in a way you would say they don't hold the keys over patriarchs. But when the 12 sends them a letter saying, you are hereby authorized to to call so and so to be a patriarch in your stake, you are authorized by their keys.
- [25:01]
John
Brent, you brought up section 10739 about the 12 ordaining or finding these patriarchs. I'm sure you both remember this story. This is President Monson telling a story about President Kimball. Not long ago, I learned of the passing of James Womack, the patriarch of the Shreveport, Louisiana Stake. He had served long and blessed ever so many lives. Years before, President Kimball shared with President Gordon B. Hinckley, Elder McConkie and me an experience he had in the appointment of a patriarch for the Shreveport, Louisiana stake at the church. President Kimball described how he interviewed, how he searched, how he prayed that he might learn the Lord's will concerning the selection. For some reason, none of the suggested candidates was the man for this assignment. At this particular time. The day wore on. The evening meetings began. Suddenly, President Kimball turned to the stake president and asked him to identify A particular man seated perhaps 2/3 of the way back from the front of the chapel. The stake president replied that the individual was James Womack, whereupon President Kimball said, he is the man the Lord has selected to be your stake patriarch. Please have him meet with me in the High Council room. Following the meeting, Stake President Charles Cagle was startled, For James Womack did not wear the label of a typical man. He had sustained terrible injuries while in combat during World War II. He had lost both hands and part of an arm, as well as most of his eyesight and part of his hearing. Nobody had wanted to let him into law school when he returned, yet he finished third in his class at Louisiana State University. That evening, as president, Kimball met with Brother Womack and informed him that the Lord had designated him to be the Patriarch. There was a silence in the room. Then Brother Womack said, brother Kimball, it is my understanding that a patriarch is to place his hands on the head of the person he blesses. As you can see, I have no hands to place on the head of anyone. Brother Kimball, in his kind and patient manner, invited Brother Womack to stand behind the chair on which Brother Kimball was seated. He then said, now, Brother Womack, lean forward and see if the stumps of your arms will reach the top of my head. To Brother Womack's joy, they touched Brother Kimball's head and the exclamation came forth. I can reach you. Of course you can reach me, responded Brother Kimball. And if you can reach me, you can reach any whom you bless. I will probably be the shortest person you will ever have seated before you. President Kimball reported to us that when the name of James Womack was presented to the Stake Conference, the hands of all the members shot heavenward in an enthusiastic vote of approval. Right there, out of verse 39.
- [28:01]
Hank
Great story.
- [28:03]
Dr. Brent Topp
I think it was John saying that you'd have people that would stand up in General Conference and say, pick me. I want to be the President of the Church. We can't imagine that. I can't imagine anybody wanting to be a patriarch. I would imagine that there is probably deathly silence in every stake president's office when that call is conferred. That is an awesome responsibility. Truly awesome. The one thing that I think I want to mention to you is the duty of the president of the high priesthood. The duty of the president of the high priesthood. In verse 91. Like I said, I geek out over this stuff. Maybe I'm making definitions where no definition is needed. There are two separate things there. They may be saying the same thing, but I think they're different. Verse 91. The President of the high priesthood is to preside over the whole church. He exercises all the keys in administering the spiritual blessings and all things in the church over all the offices of the church. That's what it means to preside. President, preside. And to be like unto Moses. Be like unto Moses is the great revelator of ancient Israel. He who holds all the authority and holds all the keys. And he who is the Lord's mouthpiece. He who is the revelator. Then that's why in the next verse, you see where the Lord says, here is wisdom. Yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator and a prophet. Then look at this part right here. Having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church. You asked earlier, Hank, about what would you say to somebody who is distrustful of organizations or bureaucracies or even fallible human leaders? Look at those two verses and you see what has the Lord placed upon the head of President Russell M. Nelson? That he has given all the gifts of God to that head. That goes back to that question. How does the organization bless the individual? If somebody has all the gifts of God that God has bestowed upon him, he has the responsibility to bestow that power and those gifts, if you will, upon the people that need it. That inculcates trust and reverence. That when I raise my arm to the square to sustain him and all of those presiding officers, it's pretty real. I better end geeking out on church and government stuff with Aaronic priesthood. So I'm going to jump back and forth. If we go to the Aaronic priesthood is in verse 20. The power and authority of the lesser or Aaronic priesthood is to hold the keys of the ministering of angels and to administer in outward ordinances. Outward ordinances, those preparation ordinances. It's a preparatory priesthood to prepare them for the temple ordinances of the higher ordinances and to administer in outward ordinances the letter of the Gospel and the baptism of repentance of the remission of sins agreeable to the covenants and commandments. There is a presiding Bishopric that presides over the Aaronic priesthood in the St. George Temple, in the Kirtland Temple, in the Nauvoo Temple. I don't know where else. If it's in Logan Temple, the assembly hall with the pulpits. All the things that we've seen here in section 107 are visibly manifest in the pulpits in the assembly hall of those pioneer temples. There's a presidency of the Rannic Priesthood that cares for the temporal affairs of the Church. You think of all of the temporal affairs of the Church. Buildings, acquisition of lands, distribution centers, translation, everything spiritual. But you think of all of that is under the direction of the Presiding Bishopric, under the direction of the First Presidency. That's another absolutely awesome quorum, a council, if you will. Let me conclude the priesthood and church government with this. I'm going to try to be as reverent as possible without being too explicit. But think about it. So you go to the temple and you do an endowment session in the temple and you see the progression. If you want to see the covenants and how they progress from, I hate to say lesser, because obedience is certainly the law of heaven, but you see how they progress from being willing to obey the voice of God to being willing to give your all and to sacrifice all for the kingdom of God. You see that progression taking place. The Aaronic priesthood hold the keys of the ministering of angels. Think of in the temple ordinance. I'll be reverential here of how Adam and Eve and their posterity are are ministered by those that come to them. But the higher priesthood is preparing us to go into God's presence. Go over to verse 18 and 19. In contrast, the Melchizedek priesthood holds the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the Church to have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. Section 84 tells us the powers of godliness, the fullness of the Scriptures, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn and enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father and Jesus, the Mediator of the New covenant. When we speak of the Aaronic priesthood as a preparatory priesthood, think of it in the context of the temple. We can go even down further, the Aaronic priesthood down in the baptismal font of the temple. Then you go up to begin the other ordinances of the endowment. Then it gets you to go through the veil into the presence of the Father and the Son and to receive all the blessings that Father has in store for his children. That's section 107 in a nutshell. That's section 84 in a nutshell. That's the oath and covenant of the priesthood to inherit all that the Father has. I love that ministering of angels to me and the covenants associated with that are preparing me to go to God to receive all the fullness that will come. At that point, even though we speak of the patriarchal order that patriarchal order, section 132 is going to say gods and goddesses, priests and priestesses, all of the blessings women, just as men, have those preparatory experiences that are going to make it possible for us to receive all of the blessings of heavenly parents, plural. And in fact, if we could have anything that would come down to the young women of the Ivan's First Ward or anywhere else in the church, would be the young women and the young men to understand what the Lord has in store for them if they will stay on the covenant path, follow the path, keep your covenants, go to the temple, keep your covenants of the temple, be sealed in the temple, and to be ordained kings and queens. That's the greatness. Now, I am quite confident that In February of 1835, when section 107 is given to that priesthood body which applies to all today, I don't think any of them had a clue what it all means. But what they did get is verses 99 and 100 where it said to them, learn your duty. Act in the office that you've been appointed. Be worthy to stand. Your listeners aren't going to remember all of the priesthood and church government stuff that we've talked about, but hopefully they'll have a greater appreciation and reverence for for it. But they understand what it means to learn our duties and to act in the office in which we have been called. That most important office, maybe that we have is as a member of the church, as a disciple of Jesus Christ, if I can be worthy and learn my duty, and I want to be counted worthy to stand at the last day.
- [38:38]
John
Brent, one thing that I've taken away from today is, although I will very likely not serve in the callings that have been listed here, the First Presidency, the Gorman, the 12, the 70, these are all outlined and put in place for my benefit, the benefit of my family, my sons, my daughter. Just the fact that you showed me that makes this section so much more interesting to me. Look how careful the Lord is to make sure that everyone is taken care of. And like you said, redundancy.
- [39:12]
Hank
I ran into Barbara Morgan Gardner in Harmony, Pennsylvania at the priesthood restoration site. She grabbed me and held up her phone and said, say something to the young women of the church about how the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood has blessed them. No warning. So I hope I got it right. But I said, because of the Aaronic priesthood, all of us get to connect with the Savior through our baptism and through the ordinance of the sacrament every single week. I think she said, yes, exactly What I was thinking. I'm so glad she said that because it made me come. Love that. This is in the ordinances. The power of godliness is manifest. Right? And here's how the Lord blesses all of us. I think of a stake presidency somewhere. None of whom asked to be there, presiding over seven wards.
- [40:05]
Dr. Brent Topp
Seven.
- [40:05]
Hank
Seven bishops, none of whom asked to be there, who meet with the High Council early in the morning, none of whom asked to be there, but who love the Lord and who want to serve Him. This gives order in how we serve each other, as you've just talked about, through the temple. Bring us all back to God again one day, and it's all through the power of the priesthood.
- [40:29]
John
Brent, verse 99, let every man learn his duty. See, when I think of learning, I think part of learning is making mistakes and learning from those mistakes. Maybe inherited. Verse 99 is the leadership that's outlined here. They're going to make mistakes as they learn their duty. We can be patient with that. What does the Lord say about Joseph? He says, you'll receive from him in all patience and faith. Meaning, hey, it's going to take some patience and faith to receive his language.
- [41:08]
Hank
You have known his imperfections, you have known this, you also know. But you're looking at the wrong thing.
- [41:16]
John
Patience and faith.
- [41:17]
Dr. Brent Topp
Yeah.
- [41:17]
John
What do you think, Brent? We allow our leaders, especially our local leaders, our bishop, the ones that, like John said they didn't seek this out. We allow them to learn their duty.
- [41:31]
Dr. Brent Topp
Absolutely. I facetiously but seriously talked about church bureaucracy that people often say, well, why do we need a section 107? Why do we need all of these things? Why didn't the Lord just reveal the whole structure of the church? April 6, 1830. We just move on in perfection. Well, we've talked about how the needs weren't there, but I think the Lord also allows for the fact that, okay, I'm going to let you grow and learn as you learn your duty. I'm going to let you go out on a limb once in a while. I did things in my leadership positions that didn't work out nearly as well in real life as they did in my mind when I was thinking about it. Yet I was inspired to do it. And I think the Lord was probably inspiring me, saying, well, you've kind of got your own ideas here. Why don't you go ahead and give it a try and see how it works. If it works, good. If it doesn't, I'm here to teach you some more things. At every level of the Church. I think the Lord allows the same privilege to the organization and to the leaders. The organization has not always been perfect. The organization at times has made mistakes and have caused some challenges for others. You can't help but read the four volumes of Saints and see that man. There were some challenging, difficult times as the saints were trying to work their ways through. Through some things. There were some leaders that probably weren't always as wise or as inspired at one time or another. We want our children to grow up and be wonderful, perfect adults. But we're quite sure they're not going to do that all at once. We are sometimes absolutely stunned and shocked when they're not.
- [43:44]
John
What did you do?
- [43:46]
Dr. Brent Topp
We recognize the Lord is working with them. We work with them as parents. The Lord does that with organizations. We've seen the church generally as well as locally make decisions and then have had to backtrack on them at times. And it may have been we weren't ready or it may have been intended consequences. But I think we need to recognize that the Lord is going to allow individuals to make mistakes. We know institutions make mistakes and the church is not infallible any more than the president of the church is infallible. But what is infallible, as the prophet Joseph said, is the revelations and I would add the word that we've emphasized and talked about today. The keys, keys that have been restored that I think is infallible by all means. We have to recognize that just as we are imperfect and don't always have the desired outcomes of our well intentioned plans, we need to be patient and long suffering. I can maybe not agree with a particular decision or how a local leader would do it, or I would maybe do it differently if I were in that position. But I'm not in that position and I don't hold the keys. And the Lord is not going to really care what I have to think about that because I don't hold the keys. That's where understanding keys, understanding the doctrine, understanding the inspired organization gives confidence. Also maybe a little bit of forbearance of when things are a little less than perfect.
- [45:43]
John
Yeah, let everyone learn their duty. Let them, let them learn the Lord. Section 1 of the doctrine and Covenants called it a true and living church. It's living, growing, it's changing, it's adapting and I think it's beautiful.
- [45:58]
Dr. Brent Topp
I've been the beneficiary on the other end as we talk about missions of how I have seen some of the very best leaders in missionary Leadership Council that hadn't Gone through high council training, bishops training. They had better meetings than high council meetings. Wendy and I would just sit back there and say, how in the world did they do this? Well, they learned from each other, but they also had the spirit of the Lord and the spirit of their calling. They had been set apart as ambassadors of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Spirit taught them what they needed to do. That was one of the greatest blessings of my experience as a mission president was seeing leadership councils in action.
- [46:48]
Hank
Wow.
- [46:49]
John
Brent, I want to ask you a last question. We started out with, how are we going to meet the needs of a growing church? You showed us how this priesthood structure is meant to bless every member. As we were looking through the leadership of the church, the first presidency, the quorum of the 12, the 70 other leaders, the Lord mentions other officers of the church in verse 98. This is a huge question. All three of us could go on honestly for days. How has the leadership of the church been a blessing to both of you? When I start to even think about just the individual General Conference talks that have become little personal moments of guidance for me, I could start to list dozens that had significant impact on me and then local leadership as well, from young men's leaders, through bishops, through stake presidents. I didn't expect my heart to be filled with gratitude after reading section 107.
- [48:00]
Hank
My brother and I, when we were young, had taped football cards all over the walls. Some of the football cards had a little fold out of, you know, star players and things like that. I look back now, and in the 70s, I can't remember who won the Super Bowl. I can't remember who won any of the World Series. I can't remember who won Best Picture, But I can remember my young men leaders. I can remember my bishops. I got to go on camping trips and see what it means to be a man when things don't go well, when the car breaks down, when you can't start the fire. I can name every one of them and tell you things they taught me and sacrifices they made. That's how the leadership has affected me from Aaronic priesthood up until now. And I'm so grateful for the outcome of trying to serve in these callings and how my mission president, another man who affected my life, used to say, the Lord gets the work done through his people, but he gets his people done through the work. The outcome of them serving has blessed me forever.
- [49:12]
John
There's so many people we could list, but for me, President Hinckley, still deep in my heart, I just needed him at that Time in my life, even when I hear his voice today, my heart leaps.
- [49:30]
Dr. Brent Topp
We could spend hours in days on this. I have been touched by individual leaders of the church. A bishop that played basketball every Saturday morning with the young men. That same stake president that got up and he was a bishop that became the stake president and got up in a stake conference and apologized and asked forgiveness of the stake because he lost his temper in a church basketball game and asked the stake to forgive him. And I thought I got a long ways to go. I have been blessed by women and men. Sister Okazaki will never know what an impact she had on me as I got to lead her around. She'd hold onto my arm. She just shared things with me. I have been blessed by so many of the women's leaders. And I look back at some of the talks. I look at the women who are the wives of the senior leadership of the church and the sacrifices that they have made. I look at those leaders who, behind the scenes, have influenced the mighty men of Zion, that we have pictures hanging up in the church buildings. I am grateful for messages of General Conference that have literally changed my life in so many ways, going all the way back to when I was a freshman at BYU and went to my first general priesthood session in the tabernacle and heard a message from Elder Vaughn J. Featherstone that changed my life. I have great admiration for the senior brethren. When I was called this most recent time to be mission president down at the Mormon Battalion Historic site. And I was not a happy camper. This was two weeks before I was going to be retiring from byu. And I walked in and they did this and we walked out. We got home and I told Wendy I was grumbling and I said, I'm not even going to be able to get to enjoy my retirement. Wendy said, well, you go back to Elder Cook and Elder Renlund and try that out on them. I have had great admiration that they are giving their lives, their livelihoods, their retirement, so much to the Lord that inspires me. Sometimes when I grumble and complain about having to be this position or that position, I think of the inspiration of those prophet seers and revelators and the general officers and general leaders of the church, general authorities of the church that give up so much, who possess those qualities that we mentioned there in verse 30. I am inspired and I want to do better. I am grateful to be able to pray for them. I am grateful to be able to hold my hand up in symbolic and literal sustaining of them. I'm grateful and section 107, when you say it, it gives you greater appreciation. I think that was part of the intent. And again, Those men in 1835 had no idea what that would mean. But I think we have a little more glimpse of what it means to preside over a worldwide church.
- [53:05]
John
Brent, thank you for spending your time with us today and giving us of your experience.
- [53:13]
Dr. Brent Topp
I hope I don't have to have too many more experiences to expound some more. I just found my little corner of Ivan's, Utah. I'll just learn my duty and do the best I can.
- [53:27]
John
Now that you're a ward mission leader, isn't that wonderful? In this church where the Lord says, oh, by the way, I can move you from here to hear, and I just want you to keep learning your duty.
- [53:37]
Dr. Brent Topp
Yeah, exactly, John.
- [53:40]
John
What a day.
- [53:42]
Hank
So good to see, Brent. Oh, so good to expand these sections. I really like what Brent taught us about. At the time this was given, they probably had no idea. But look how beautifully history has unfolded and how we see things in here now that we go. Oh, okay. It allows for more growth until there's 70 times 7 quorums of the 70 in verse 96. In fact, I want to say this about my good friend Hank. He just dropped off his son to the MTC at the time of this recording. I got a text from a friend at the MTC that said they broke a record of 1,000 missionaries reporting in one day.
- [54:29]
John
One day.
- [54:31]
Hank
And that's going to probably. That number is probably going to be close next week and the week after that. Maybe Joseph Smith at the Isaac Morley farm did see that, Brent, and saw exactly this kind of a day.
- [54:43]
John
You brothers have no idea.
- [54:45]
Dr. Brent Topp
At that rate, we may see 490 quorums of 70s.
- [54:53]
John
It's been just a wonderful day, Brent. Section 107 to me means so much more now. Not just the structure, understanding the structure, but also understanding the Lord's purpose behind it.
- [55:05]
Dr. Brent Topp
Thank you for the privilege.
- [55:07]
John
Been wonderful. Well, with that, we want to thank Dr. Brent Topp for joining us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. The Kirtland Temple needs to be dedicated on Follow him. Thank you for joining us on today's episode. Do you or someone you know speaks Spanish, Portuguese or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today's show notes and transcript are only on our website. Followhim. Co. That's followhim co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Kuwadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, Sydney Smith and Annabelle Sorensen.
- [56:08]
Dr. Brent Topp
Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.
- [56:18]
John
Turn to him.
- [56:20]
Dr. Brent Topp
Follow him.