Podcast Summary: followHIM – Doctrine & Covenants 111-114 Part 2

Hosts: Hank Smith (A), John Bytheway (B)
Guest: Dr. Susan Easton Black (C)
Episode Date: October 1, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode is the second part of a detailed discussion on Doctrine & Covenants Sections 111-114. Hosts Hank Smith and John Bytheway are joined by Dr. Susan Easton Black, an accomplished Latter-day Saint historian, as they explore lessons of spiritual heart, pride, forgiveness, doctrinal insights on Isaiah, the gathering of Israel, and the challenging period in Church history surrounding Far West, Missouri. The episode balances scriptural exegesis with historical context and personal application, offering faith-promoting insights for both educators and learners in the "Come, Follow Me" curriculum.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The State of the Heart: Repeated Warnings and Aspirations

[00:08–04:44]

• D&C 112 highlights the heart six times, prompting the hosts to reflect on how God is concerned with not just actions but also motivations and desires.
• John Bytheway: “Having a pure heart is such a lofty goal... Doing the best things, but doing them for the best reasons. That's a lifetime pursuit. That's why the Savior, thankfully, can remake our hearts” (01:29).
• The process from a hard to a soft to a pure heart is ongoing, and God meets people in their struggles to progress.

Pride and its Dangers: Lessons from Thomas B. Marsh

[04:44–09:37]

• The conversation centers on Thomas B. Marsh—once President of the Quorum of the Twelve—who fell due to pride but was later welcomed back.
• Memorable Quote:
  • President Faust to Elder Uchtdorf (quoted by John Bytheway): “‘Dieter, be thankful for this, but don't you ever inhale it.’” (03:36)
  • “If pride can corrupt one as capable and promising as this, should we not examine our own souls as well?” (Elder Uchtdorf, 04:21)
• Dr. Black provides a mini-biography of Marsh, emphasizing that pride led to his departure but humility and suffering brought him back.
• The Saints' capacity to forgive Marsh even after the Missouri persecutions is highlighted as a powerful act of collective grace.

Doctrinal Questions and Isaiah: Engaging with the Foundations

[10:04–26:12]

• Attention shifts to D&C 113, where Joseph Smith answers complex doctrinal questions about Isaiah 11 & 52, triggered by Elias Higbee and others.
• Dr. Black: “Isaiah seems to be the link... When we get all the scriptures together... How will we recognize each other? We'll all be talking Isaiah.” (13:12)
• The “stem of Jesse” is identified as Christ, the “rod” likely as Joseph Smith, and the “root” as the Church with its priesthood keys (17:21–20:31).
• The group discusses how seemingly “nerdy” doctrinal conversations are actually central to understanding the Church’s mission.

Gathering of Israel and the Latter-Day Mission

[25:18–31:14]

• The segment pivots to the Church’s ongoing responsibility to gather Israel, quoting Elder Bednar:
  • “‘We were foreordained in the premortal existence and born into mortality to fulfill the covenant and promise God made to Abraham. That is who we are. That is why we are here.’” (26:12)
• These sections tie scriptural prophecy to modern-day missionary work, emphasizing continuity between ancient covenants and contemporary callings.
• Symbolism of rising from oppression (“arise, sit down, O Jerusalem”) is explored as a metaphor for reclaiming spiritual dignity through the priesthood.

Historical Hardships and Human Weakness: Missouri Period

[31:14–35:23]

• Dr. Black explains the difficult period post-Kirtland, where Joseph Smith and the Saints face betrayal, poverty, and lack of support from local Church leadership.
• The episode cautions against judgment, noting that High Council members who denied support to Joseph’s family later faced their own financial crises.
• The narrative contextualizes the lack of new revelations during these years as a result of Joseph’s attention to temporal survival rather than spiritual teaching.

David W. Patten: “Captain Fear Not” and the First Apostle-Martyr

[35:23–45:21]

• David W. Patten, nicknamed “Captain Fear Not,” is profiled for his faith, devotion, and the miraculous stories that followed his missionary service.
• Dr. Black narrates Patten’s martyrdom at Crooked River and Joseph Smith’s powerful eulogy:
  • Joseph Smith: “There lies a man that has done just as he said he would. He has laid down his life for his friends.” (41:31)
• D&C 114 is discussed as a foreshadowing of leadership changes and the importance of preparing oneself spiritually and temporally for future callings.

Reflection on Joseph Smith’s Legacy and Faith Despite Criticism

[47:42–51:54]

• The hosts invite Dr. Black to share her lifelong perspective on Joseph Smith amid contemporary criticism and skepticism.
• Dr. Black: “If you were to say, have I ever found any reason to pause and say, oh, wow, I don't think he's a prophet? I've never found that... I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, and I wish I could say all my actions mirrored that knowledge. That's always a struggle. I know Joseph was a prophet.” (48:57)
• She promotes her podcast series, “Impressions of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” for deeper biographical insights.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Motives and Perfection:

  • “If we wait to have perfect motives, we never do anything.” — John Bytheway (01:29)

• On Pride in Leadership:

  • “Pride is the great sin of self elevation... If pride can corrupt one as capable and promising as [Lucifer], should we not examine our own souls as well?” — Elder Uchtdorf, quoted by John Bytheway (03:36–04:21)

• On Forgiveness:

  • “On the moment, they were like, sure, we welcome you back in... It says something about the saints... that they also were willing to forgive [Thomas Marsh].” — Dr. Susan Black (07:38)

• On the Purpose of Mortality:

  • “We were foreordained... to fulfill the covenant and promise God made to Abraham. That is who we are. That is why we are here.” — Elder Bednar, quoted by John Bytheway (26:12)

• On Suffering and Judgment:

  • “Each one of those men [who denied Joseph support] at one point... lacked the means for a loaf of bread... as you judge, you will be judged.” — Dr. Susan Black (34:17)

• On Martyrdom and Faithfulness:

  • “There lies a man that has done just as he said he would. He has laid down his life for his friends.” — Joseph Smith about David Patten (41:31)

• On Knowing Joseph Smith:

  • “If you were to say, have I ever found any reason to pause and say, oh, wow, I don't think he's a prophet? I've never found that.” — Dr. Susan Black (48:57)

Key Segment Timestamps

• Reflection on the Heart in D&C 112 – 00:08–02:18
• Thomas Marsh & Forgiveness – 04:57–08:41
• Elias Higbee & the Isaiah Questions – 10:20–17:21
• Interpretation of Isaiah 11 ("Stem", "Rod", "Root") – 17:21–20:31
• Church’s Mission – Gathering Israel & Missionary Work – 25:18–26:12
• Arise, Sit Down – Isaiah Symbolism – 29:19–31:14
• Missouri Challenges – Joseph, High Council, Hardship – 31:48–35:23
• David W. Patten (“Captain Fear Not”) – 35:59–45:21
• D&C 114 and Leadership Transition – 42:05–44:25
• Reflection on Joseph Smith’s Legacy – 47:42–51:54

Tone and Language

• The episode maintains an encouraging, faith-filled tone even as it addresses difficult historical and spiritual issues.
• Dr. Black’s scholarship is balanced by warmth and humor (e.g., missed opportunities for “Thomas B. Marsh University”; playful banter about “Captain Fear Not”).
• The hosts and guest frequently adopt accessible language, bridging scholarship and practical gospel living.

Conclusion

This episode offers an insightful blend of scripture, church history, and personal application. Through the stories of Thomas B. Marsh, Elias Higbee, and David W. Patten, listeners are invited to examine their own hearts, beware of pride, value forgiveness, seek understanding in difficult scriptures, and remember the prophet Joseph Smith’s foundational role. The hosts and Dr. Black urge listeners to focus on covenants, the gathering of Israel, and following Christ, drawing strength from both ancient and modern saints.

Final Encouragement:
"Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him." — Dr. Susan Black & John Bytheway (54:20)