Doctrine & Covenants 111-114 Part 2 • Dr. Susan Black • Oct 6 - Oct 12 • Come Follow Me

Summary

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Podcast Summary: followHIM – Doctrine & Covenants 111-114 Part 2

Hosts: Hank Smith (A), John Bytheway (B)
Guest: Dr. Susan Easton Black (C)
Episode Date: October 1, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode is the second part of a detailed discussion on Doctrine & Covenants Sections 111-114. Hosts Hank Smith and John Bytheway are joined by Dr. Susan Easton Black, an accomplished Latter-day Saint historian, as they explore lessons of spiritual heart, pride, forgiveness, doctrinal insights on Isaiah, the gathering of Israel, and the challenging period in Church history surrounding Far West, Missouri. The episode balances scriptural exegesis with historical context and personal application, offering faith-promoting insights for both educators and learners in the "Come, Follow Me" curriculum.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The State of the Heart: Repeated Warnings and Aspirations

[00:08–04:44]

• D&C 112 highlights the heart six times, prompting the hosts to reflect on how God is concerned with not just actions but also motivations and desires.
• John Bytheway: “Having a pure heart is such a lofty goal... Doing the best things, but doing them for the best reasons. That's a lifetime pursuit. That's why the Savior, thankfully, can remake our hearts” (01:29).
• The process from a hard to a soft to a pure heart is ongoing, and God meets people in their struggles to progress.

Pride and its Dangers: Lessons from Thomas B. Marsh

[04:44–09:37]

• The conversation centers on Thomas B. Marsh—once President of the Quorum of the Twelve—who fell due to pride but was later welcomed back.
• Memorable Quote:
  • President Faust to Elder Uchtdorf (quoted by John Bytheway): “‘Dieter, be thankful for this, but don't you ever inhale it.’” (03:36)
  • “If pride can corrupt one as capable and promising as this, should we not examine our own souls as well?” (Elder Uchtdorf, 04:21)
• Dr. Black provides a mini-biography of Marsh, emphasizing that pride led to his departure but humility and suffering brought him back.
• The Saints' capacity to forgive Marsh even after the Missouri persecutions is highlighted as a powerful act of collective grace.

Doctrinal Questions and Isaiah: Engaging with the Foundations

[10:04–26:12]

• Attention shifts to D&C 113, where Joseph Smith answers complex doctrinal questions about Isaiah 11 & 52, triggered by Elias Higbee and others.
• Dr. Black: “Isaiah seems to be the link... When we get all the scriptures together... How will we recognize each other? We'll all be talking Isaiah.” (13:12)
• The “stem of Jesse” is identified as Christ, the “rod” likely as Joseph Smith, and the “root” as the Church with its priesthood keys (17:21–20:31).
• The group discusses how seemingly “nerdy” doctrinal conversations are actually central to understanding the Church’s mission.

Gathering of Israel and the Latter-Day Mission

[25:18–31:14]

• The segment pivots to the Church’s ongoing responsibility to gather Israel, quoting Elder Bednar:
  • “‘We were foreordained in the premortal existence and born into mortality to fulfill the covenant and promise God made to Abraham. That is who we are. That is why we are here.’” (26:12)
• These sections tie scriptural prophecy to modern-day missionary work, emphasizing continuity between ancient covenants and contemporary callings.
• Symbolism of rising from oppression (“arise, sit down, O Jerusalem”) is explored as a metaphor for reclaiming spiritual dignity through the priesthood.

Historical Hardships and Human Weakness: Missouri Period

[31:14–35:23]

• Dr. Black explains the difficult period post-Kirtland, where Joseph Smith and the Saints face betrayal, poverty, and lack of support from local Church leadership.
• The episode cautions against judgment, noting that High Council members who denied support to Joseph’s family later faced their own financial crises.
• The narrative contextualizes the lack of new revelations during these years as a result of Joseph’s attention to temporal survival rather than spiritual teaching.

David W. Patten: “Captain Fear Not” and the First Apostle-Martyr

[35:23–45:21]

• David W. Patten, nicknamed “Captain Fear Not,” is profiled for his faith, devotion, and the miraculous stories that followed his missionary service.
• Dr. Black narrates Patten’s martyrdom at Crooked River and Joseph Smith’s powerful eulogy:
  • Joseph Smith: “There lies a man that has done just as he said he would. He has laid down his life for his friends.” (41:31)
• D&C 114 is discussed as a foreshadowing of leadership changes and the importance of preparing oneself spiritually and temporally for future callings.

Reflection on Joseph Smith’s Legacy and Faith Despite Criticism

[47:42–51:54]

• The hosts invite Dr. Black to share her lifelong perspective on Joseph Smith amid contemporary criticism and skepticism.
• Dr. Black: “If you were to say, have I ever found any reason to pause and say, oh, wow, I don't think he's a prophet? I've never found that... I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, and I wish I could say all my actions mirrored that knowledge. That's always a struggle. I know Joseph was a prophet.” (48:57)
• She promotes her podcast series, “Impressions of the Prophet Joseph Smith,” for deeper biographical insights.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Motives and Perfection:

  • “If we wait to have perfect motives, we never do anything.” — John Bytheway (01:29)

• On Pride in Leadership:

  • “Pride is the great sin of self elevation... If pride can corrupt one as capable and promising as [Lucifer], should we not examine our own souls as well?” — Elder Uchtdorf, quoted by John Bytheway (03:36–04:21)

• On Forgiveness:

  • “On the moment, they were like, sure, we welcome you back in... It says something about the saints... that they also were willing to forgive [Thomas Marsh].” — Dr. Susan Black (07:38)

• On the Purpose of Mortality:

  • “We were foreordained... to fulfill the covenant and promise God made to Abraham. That is who we are. That is why we are here.” — Elder Bednar, quoted by John Bytheway (26:12)

• On Suffering and Judgment:

  • “Each one of those men [who denied Joseph support] at one point... lacked the means for a loaf of bread... as you judge, you will be judged.” — Dr. Susan Black (34:17)

• On Martyrdom and Faithfulness:

  • “There lies a man that has done just as he said he would. He has laid down his life for his friends.” — Joseph Smith about David Patten (41:31)

• On Knowing Joseph Smith:

  • “If you were to say, have I ever found any reason to pause and say, oh, wow, I don't think he's a prophet? I've never found that.” — Dr. Susan Black (48:57)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Reflection on the Heart in D&C 112 – 00:08–02:18
• Thomas Marsh & Forgiveness – 04:57–08:41
• Elias Higbee & the Isaiah Questions – 10:20–17:21
• Interpretation of Isaiah 11 ("Stem", "Rod", "Root") – 17:21–20:31
• Church’s Mission – Gathering Israel & Missionary Work – 25:18–26:12
• Arise, Sit Down – Isaiah Symbolism – 29:19–31:14
• Missouri Challenges – Joseph, High Council, Hardship – 31:48–35:23
• David W. Patten (“Captain Fear Not”) – 35:59–45:21
• D&C 114 and Leadership Transition – 42:05–44:25
• Reflection on Joseph Smith’s Legacy – 47:42–51:54

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Tone and Language

• The episode maintains an encouraging, faith-filled tone even as it addresses difficult historical and spiritual issues.
• Dr. Black’s scholarship is balanced by warmth and humor (e.g., missed opportunities for “Thomas B. Marsh University”; playful banter about “Captain Fear Not”).
• The hosts and guest frequently adopt accessible language, bridging scholarship and practical gospel living.

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Conclusion

This episode offers an insightful blend of scripture, church history, and personal application. Through the stories of Thomas B. Marsh, Elias Higbee, and David W. Patten, listeners are invited to examine their own hearts, beware of pride, value forgiveness, seek understanding in difficult scriptures, and remember the prophet Joseph Smith’s foundational role. The hosts and Dr. Black urge listeners to focus on covenants, the gathering of Israel, and following Christ, drawing strength from both ancient and modern saints.

Final Encouragement:
"Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him." — Dr. Susan Black & John Bytheway (54:20)

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome Back to part two with Dr. Susan Easton. Black doctrine and covenants 111 to 114.

[B]

I noticed something both of you in section 112. The Lord mentions the heart six times in this section. I'll read them to you and then I'd love to hear what you think he says. There have been a few things in your heart with which I, the Lord was not well pleased. Let thy heart be of good cheer. This is verse 11. I know thy heart and have heard thy prayers. And if you come over to 13, I, the Lord will feel after them. And if they harden not their hearts, I will heal them then all the way to the end. 28. Purify your hearts before me. Go ye into all the world and preach my gospel. And then verse 33. I cleanse your hearts and your garments, lest the blood of generation be required at your hands. This happens in the book of Jacob as well. John, you know that Jacob is often talking about the state of your heart. It seems like Thomas B. Marsh and maybe some of these others, they let their heart get a little bit poisoned. Is that fair?

[C]

That's fair.

[B]

How do you guard against that?

[A]

Hank, where's the verse that says there's none else that knows the thoughts and the intents of thy heart?

[B]

In section? That's Oliver Cowdery, right? 6:16.

[A]

I feel like having a pure heart is such a lofty goal. Don't we sometimes have. Did I always do my home teaching or my ministering for all of the perfectly right reasons? No, I think I'm supposed to. Maybe that's what the Lord's talking about. Your desires, your intentions, your affections. Doing the best things, but doing them for the best reasons. That's a lifetime pursuit. That's why the Savior, thankfully, can remake our hearts. I think if we wait to have perfect motives, we never do anything.

[B]

Yeah, we can purify our hearts as we just move forward. I've noticed I come out of the temple feeling more purified than when I went in. So as we move forward in the work, our hearts can be purified. Susan, what do you think?

[C]

I think you're absolutely right what you're saying. I think hard heart to soft heart is a process. Soft heart to pure heart, the process continues depending on the day. We're somewhere in the middle, working to move forward, to be better people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I brought this little thought from Elder Uchtdorf way back in 2010. He tells this story about President Faust. He says, when I was called as a general authority, I was blessed to Be tutored by many of the senior brethren in the church. One day I had the opportunity to drive President James E. Fouse to a state conference. During the hours we spent in the car, President Faust took the time to teach me some important principles about my assignment. He explained also how gracious the members of the church are, especially to general authorities. He said, they will treat you very kindly. They will say nice things about you. He laughed a little and then said, dieter, be thankful for this, but don't you ever inhale it. Don't let it in. This whole talk is on pride in the priesthood. In fact, at one point he talks about sports. He says, I confess there are times when the lack of civility in sports is embarrassing. How is it that normally kind and compassionate human beings can become so intolerant and filled with hatred? Pride is the great sin of self elevation. When you think of a hardened heart, it is for so many a personal rami umtum, a holy stand that justifies envy, greed and vanity. In a sense, pride is the original sin. For before the foundations of the earth, pride felled Lucifer, a son of the morning who was in authority in the presence of God. And then this statement. If pride can corrupt one as capable and promising as this. That's why I thought of Thomas B. Marsh. Here he is the president of the 12. He was capable and promising. If pride can corrupt one as capable and promising as this, should we not examine our own souls as well? And maybe from this we might say, hearts, examine your heart. One thing is envy, greed, vanity, justification. All of these things can be. Man, am I headed in that direction. Thomas B. Marsh, he's been in this. What did you say, Susan? 1830, right?

[C]

He's coming in early.

[B]

Yeah. This is seven years. He's not brand new like some of these others we see who come in and flame out. Tell us about Thomas. Why does he leave? He's a good guy, right? He is a good guy, right?

[C]

He's a really good guy. Maybe pride, he knew better than others about who he thought was at fault as it relates to the strippings and the cream. He lived long enough to be able to see his follies and to realize he'd made a mistake. He's lost his wife, he lost any wealth, he lost family, and he lost his health. At this point, he comes back and it's interesting that the man that baptized him was actually paid to take Thomas in his wagon to get him to Utah because wasn't like he was healthy enough to be able to get his own wagon. And Oxen and get along the way. Thomas went through a lot of problems. And at one point he said he knew that the Lord loved him, else why would he have so much shaking when he fell away? Why? It was just so obvious. The problems were insurmountable.

[B]

Exalt not yourself. Rebel not against my servant Joseph. The Lord sees it coming early on. He says, don't do this. Don't head this direction.

[C]

Don't do this. Because look what's going to happen. As a parent, can't we all see that? We'd say, don't do this. Remember who you are. Which means, remember who I am.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Don't do this. That's not going to result in happiness at the end. Yeah, Thomas is prideful enough to do it anyway.

[B]

I say it to my students sometimes. I've seen this movie. I know how this ends. You're not the first student to do this sort of thing. And to head this direction, that's so hard. It's heartbreaking. Talking about hearts.

[A]

This letter that I read, I was in the fourth or fifth paragraph. An earlier paragraph says, I know I have sinned against heaven and in thy sight. I mean, that's right out of Luke 15. That's the prodigal son. And I deserve no place among you, even as the lowest member. You know, I'm no more worthy to be called thy Son. But like you said, Susan, that Lord was after him. He said that he's followed me. He has visited me with scourging. Ouch. With visions and dreams. Lord never gave up on him. It sounds like. I'm just glad that it says when he went to. Let's see. On September 6, two days after his arrival in the valley, a large congregation had assembled for Sabbath worship, voted unanimously to receive Brother Marsh into full fellowship. And as you said, a stroke had paralyzed part of his body. It says, but I'm glad they all said, yes, Brother, come back.

[C]

Don't you think that's great? Because you're looking at people that actually went through the extermination order and could look to Thomas as part of the cause of that and imagine their feelings about the man. Yet on the moment, they were like, sure, we welcome you back in. I mean, it says something about Thomas wanting to come back, but it says something about the saints that endured across the plains, went through all the problems, yet they also were willing to forgive him.

[A]

What did Elder Uchtor say? Forgive me for what was it? I sinned differently than you do. What was it so. And that keeps us humble, because all of us know, both of those sons had issues. One of them was pride, resentment, envy, maybe. And one was more visible sins. But we all need the repentance. I like the ending to that story. It makes me feel a little better that he came back and the whole congregation said, yes, we want you back. I like that.

[B]

There was this moment, Susan, I remember this story just because both you and I knew Robert Matthews. Here's the man who wrote quite a bit, right. Basically wrote the Bible dictionary that we use. He's speaking in Cedar City, and he was teaching us. I was a young seminary teacher, and I remember distinctly he said, now, I don't want you to think that I know more than you. I don't. I just thought, yes, you do.

[A]

Yes, you do.

[B]

But he emanated this look. I'm not special. I'm doing the work just like you. I think that's what he meant. We're on the same team here.

[C]

We're on the same team. Different talents, appreciating each other's talents as opposed to competing.

[B]

Yeah. This is a heartbreaking one. I love that he comes back. My heart hurts for what he missed out on. Maybe we would have had Thomas B. Marsh University. Right? Right.

[C]

You sure could have.

[A]

That's what Casey Griffith said. It could have been TMU instead of by.

[B]

And we're going to talk about David Patton later, who also was ahead of Brigham young in the 12.

[C]

Right. Actually, if David had known when his birthday was, he would have been present up the 12.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Instead of Thomas B. Marsh.

[A]

Yeah, he just didn't know when it was.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Susan, when we started, you said that Joseph has financial concerns, Thomas B. Marsh has concerns. That's 111 and 112. And then you said 113. And you named a bunch of people who have concerns, but I don't see them listed here.

[C]

The only one that we could really name is Elias Higbee. All we know is he's with other brethren, but their concerns are about doctrine. I think that that is so interesting because we move from. We're concerned about money, we're concerned about those not keeping the Commandments, but actually we're concerned about doctrine. This one little history on it. Joseph Smith has just arrived in Missouri. He's now in the far west area, walking through the town. He's with his brother, Samuel Smith, remember our first missionary. As they're walking along, it's now In March of 1838, they run into Elias Higbee and other brethren are approaching them. And these brethren claimed that they had questions about interpretation of verses. We're going to find it's in chapter 11 and chapter 52 of the book of Isaiah. And you think, isn't that interesting? You know, they've got a fledgling community starting. They're going to have couple of hotels, they've got some general stores. They figured out where the temple site's going to be. They're basically all farmers by trade and then something else. But here are men actually discussing then the Book of Isaiah. And you think, wow, that's so interesting.

[B]

I got a lot going on.

[C]

They've got a town to be built, right? They've got persecution, people falling apart. Quoting Bruce Armakake, I think it's pretty interesting. He was asked, why did these brethren have questions about the writings of Isaiah. And he said, the answer is simple. He said, most of us find the writings of Isaiah hard to understand. So it's not these men back in the 1830s, but even today. Yet Bruce Armaconkie said, it just may be that my salvation and yours also does in fact depend upon our ability to understand the writings of Isaiah as fully and truly as Nephi understood them. Isaiah itself, as we begin to look, he's always pointing his readers to Jesus Christ, to covenants and to the Temple. You get restoration of lost truths, promised land, who's the rightful king. But if you looked in just the Doctrine and Covenants, we have over 70 quotations that are either quoted or paraphrased of Isaiah. So Isaiah seems to be the link. I've always wondered when we get all the scriptures together and here come the lost tribes with their scriptures will be like a pencil that we cut in three pieces. Here's the Book of Mormon people, and here's the Jerusalem people. Here they come. How will we recognize each other? We'll all be talking Isaiah.

[B]

Everyone will have Isaiah in their scripture.

[C]

Yeah, everybody will have Isaiah. It's our link. The problem is it's our link, but yet remains so hard to understand at this point. Joseph Smith then receives a revelation for the brethren and answers the five questions that are contained in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 1 13. You can see the five as we go through. We actually don't know who asked the first three, but we know you get Elias Higbee coming through on the last two. I thought might want to learn something first about Elias Higbee.

[B]

Okay, let's do it.

[C]

Elias Higbee joins the church in Cincinnati, Ohio. He's one of the first, then called to take his family to Jackson County, Missouri. He's among those in 1833, that's forced out of Jackson and ends up in Clay County. By the time we're picking up here, obviously he's moved up to far west, you'd say. As far as positions in the church, it appears to me somebody that doesn't say no. He doesn't seem to have an excuse. By the time we pick him up, he's been a high counselor, a clerk, a historian and a recorder. He might have been a writer in our time. He could have been somebody that taught religion. Seems like he's into it. He's the clerk historian. After this experience, what puts him on the map that people remember him Most is in 1839 he was asked to accompany Joseph Smith to Washington, D.C. to put before the President of the United States. Missouri redress petitions for him. He stays in the Capitol after Joseph has departed and finally says, By 1840, I feel now that we have made our last appeal to all earthly tribunals for the wrongs we suffer down the state of Missouri. That we should now put our whole trust in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We have a right now which we could not heretofore so fully claim, that is of asking God for redress and redemption as they have been refused to us by man. In other words, he is not successful. He returns back to where the saints had then been, to Illinois. His next assignment. He's appointed to be on the Nauvoo Temple Committee to help select the site and direct then the workers of the temple. He dies of cholera in June of 1843 at the age of 47. Joseph Smith said of this man, his loss will be universally lamented. How'd you like that? Not only by his family, but by a large circle of brethren who have long witnessed his integrity and uprightness as well as a life of devotedness to the cause of truth. You look at him, he's young too. That by this point it would make him in his early 40s as he's in far West. He's with friends and they're discussing two chapters in Isaiah as they're walking along the streets where you'd say, other men are putting in fences, they're plowing the land. Here's these guys talking about something that you'd say, wait a minute. What could you say you've done with your day now. Maybe we could look at the questions.

[B]

He does sound like he'd be a religion teacher. Don't you think we're weird? I've had conversations where I'm walking with a friend to Lunch. And I say, hey, I was teaching this today. What do you think that verse means? It's an odd group.

[C]

They're just walking down the street. Other people are working in their gardens or slaughtering chickens for the dinner. They're doing things. They're just talking about Isaiah, which gives you a clue that readers in the church, they were illiterate, they were familiar with their Bibles.

[B]

And he's asking about here, Isaiah 11, which is also one of those in the book of Mormon.

[C]

Second Nephi 21, maybe going through, what are the questions? First question, who is the stem of Jesse spoken of? Then in the first five verses of chapter 11 of Isaiah, Joseph Smith. Then hearing from the Lord, verily, thus saith the Lord. Here is your answer. The stem of Jesse. Well, it is none other than Jesus Christ.

[B]

And Jesse is David's father.

[C]

Right?

[B]

We'll know a little of your Old Testament.

[C]

Then you get the second question. What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah that should come of the stem of Jesse? In other words, Jesse's given you. It's Christ, right? Who's the stem? Well, who's the rod then? And the answer you get? The answer is coming. Behold, thus saith the Lord. It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power. Can you name him?

[B]

He doesn't name him here, but I would guess either that's Joseph Smith or John. By the way, I'm pretty sure it's Joseph's answers. Well, I was leaning one way. I just didn't want you to know.

[A]

Thanks for the shout out.

[C]

We've now learned the stem of Jesse is Christ, the rods spoken about. And you start looking genealogy which gives you an Ephraim house of Joseph as well as Joseph Smith. Then you get, here's your next question. What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter? You ready for the answer?

[A]

I'll read it. This is verse 6. Behold, thus saith the Lord. It is a descendant of Jesse as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood and the keys of the kingdom for an ensign and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

[B]

So he's identified three different symbols in Isaiah 11. He's identified the stem of Jesse, the rod out of the stem of Jesse. And a rod is like a shoot, a little branch coming out. Then he's identified this third, which is in that day, there shall be a root of Jesse. He's asking about all three. Did I get that right?

[C]

Yep. But how do we interpret then the answer in verse 6, 1 and 2 have been people. One's Christ, one's Joseph. But then you come to verse 6.

[B]

Behold, thus saith the Lord. It is a descendant of Jesse as well of Joseph, the priesthood and the keys of the kingdom. I'm going to guess here, Susan, that this is the church.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Did I get right?

[C]

Yes. Boy, talk about an A student.

[B]

Can you go back and change my grade?

[C]

Yeah, that's an A. Because look at what you get in the church. You get the priesthood, you get the keys of the kingdom of God. It's an ensign where we're gathering the people here in the last days. His questions are not casual questions. Like, I had one student complain when I asked how many pieces of bone came out of Joseph's original incision when his leg was cut. He goes, I don't think that's important. I'm like, but I do.

[B]

Yeah, I'm the teacher.

[C]

But you'd say it's not a question off like that. These are the basics. Christ, Joseph Smith, the church. Right. Do we actually know who asked those first three questions? And the answer is no. But then we come to verse seven. These are now questions that are asked by Elias Higbee, someone who goes on to be on the Nauvoo Temple Committee, who goes with Joseph smith to Washington, D.C. and is left there to handle church affairs. So someone that Joseph has great trust in this time. In verse seven, he says, well, okay, I'm not interested right now in chapter 11 of Isaiah. I've had it with that. You guys have talked enough about that. So what I'd really like to know is what about the 52nd chapter, first verse? Here's the question. Do you think Joseph Smith, when he received the Revelation, is walking along with the Bible in his hand when he's with his brother Samuel and they kind of arrived in town?

[B]

That was my thought. Is the Lord up in. He's like, well, let me look that up. Hang on, let me turn over to Isaiah 52.

[C]

Or do those other men, do they actually have a Bible as they're walking along? And Joseph says, wait a minute. Turn to that. Yeah, questions, we probably don't know the answer. Elias Higby now has two questions of his own. Verse 7. What is meant by the command in Isaiah, chapter 52, first verse, which saith, put on thy strength, O Zion. And what people had Isaiah referenced to in other words, who's Isaiah talking about when he says, put on thy strength and what is our strength? I'm looking for my A student. Come on, John, you can join the group here.

[B]

Yeah, come on, John.

[A]

To put on thy strength is. He describes it as robes. And often we think of clothes as you crown a king, you put a robe on him. It's power. I love the answer here. To put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood which she has right to. Did I answer the right question?

[C]

Yes, you did. Good.

[A]

Yeah, thanks.

[C]

Student makes good. So you look and you'd say, well, what are we learning in these verses? We're learning stem is Christ. We're learning about the rod. Joseph Smith. We're learning about the root, the church. Now we're learning about what you need to have the strength to be able to survive in the society in which we live. You need strength, which you're now saying is priesthood.

[A]

We, all of us. Yeah.

[B]

It says Susan at the end of verse eight, return to that power which she had lost. I read ahead a little bit. We're going to talk about scattered Israel here. This isn't just a set of random questions. This is Christ Joseph Smith. The church is going to gather scattered Israel. And I'm guessing the next question is what's that going to look like? What is going to happen to scattered Israel? What does everybody understand by Zion loosing herself from the bands of her neck? I can read verse 10. We are to understand that the scattered remnants are exhorted to return to the Lord from once they have fallen, which if they do, the promise of the Lord is that he will speak to them or give them revelation. Then the Lord gives some homework. I want you to go read the sixth, seventh and eighth verses. Talking about the bands of the neck are the curses of God upon her the remnants of Israel in their scattered condition among the Gentiles. That's a great lesson on the Lord. Joseph Smith. The church and the purpose of the church here is not just to restore a New Testament church, but to go find scattered Israel. That's awesome.

[C]

I imagine our listeners have accepted mission calls. We should probably all sing Called to Serve. Our job is get out there and find them. I think we could say to each other, where have we gone to try and find scattered Israel? At least the three of us can say we've gone a lot of places.

[B]

Absolutely. And we've got kids in a lot of places.

[C]

We do.

[B]

Sometimes I'll do that in class. Where did you go? The Lord says Go ye to all the Earth. And they'll yell out, Las Vegas, Norway, Ghana. It's a fun little activity.

[C]

It is. And you always feel the spirit. You're like, who are these great people that we get to teach that have done so much for the Lord? The sacrifice and willingness, and then the joy they've experienced.

[B]

There is a quote from 2005, so 20 years ago, that I use when I teach the gathering of Israel in my classes. I usually start it off like this. This is Elder Bednar. The talk is called becoming a missionary. So I'll usually give the first half of the quote and ask them to fill in the second half. The first half says this. We were foreordained in the premortal existence and born into mortality. To I'll put dot, dot, dot. I'll say, how would you finish that? Why did we come to Earth? Most often it's to get a body to be tested, to become like God. And I'll say, those are all right. But that's not what Elder Bednar said. And I'll fill it in. Here's the whole quote. We were foreordained in the premortal existence and born into mortality to fulfill the covenant and promise God made to Abraham. That is who we are. That is why we are here. I taught my twin boys when they were young to say that to their primary teachers when they said, why did we come to Earth? To fulfill the covenant and promise God made to Abraham. That is why we are here. But it really is. President Nelson has been talking about this since long before he was president of the Church.

[A]

That's true. I love that this was on their minds and the answers. When I saw this question, I thought maybe they've read their Book of Mormon too. Because it's repeated twice in the Book of Mormon in 2 Nephi 8. Also in 3 Nephi 20, the same Isaiah passages out of chapter 52 are repeated, like in 2 Nephi 8, which is compare Isaiah 51 and 52. Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which has drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury. Thou hast drunken the dregs out of the cup of trembling wrung and out. So it talks about what they've been through. But then we Skip to verse 23 of 2 Nephi 8. I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee, who have said to thy soul, bow down, that we may go over. I mean, they've literally been walked all over. And thou hast laid thy body as the ground and as the street to them that went over. Now, here's the Elias Higbee question. Awake, Awake. Put on thy strength, O Zion. Put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city. For henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. Shake thyself from the dust. Arise, sit down, O Jerusalem. Loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion. Which was another question. And then we see the same thing, 3 Nephi 20, where Jesus quotes it again. 3 Nephi 20 36. Awake. Put on thy strength, O Zion. Put on thy beautiful garments. It has a wonderful latter Day flavor to it. Hank, isn't Paul Hoskisson a relative of yours?

[B]

He is. He's a cousin, although I don't think he claimed me.

[A]

Oh, okay. I was watching one of the roundtable discussions years ago. I'm reading Arise, Sit down. And that sounds like. Well, make up your mind. Right, yeah.

[B]

Arise, sit down.

[A]

Loose thyself from the bands of thy neck. Invaders often took conquered inhabitants of the land as slaves, sometimes by putting bands around their necks. Symbolically, sin is like a band around our necks as Satan leads us where he wants us to go. The prophet Joseph Smith wrote, the bands of her neck are curses of God upon her. That's verse 10. Verses 24 and 25 of 2 Nephi 8 are repeated in 3 Nephi 20. And some of the last words in the Book of Mormon in Moroni 1031. If you're curious about what does this all mean? This is what Dr. Hoskisson said. He was an Old Testament professor that I had at byu. He said the people of Israel should stand up out of the dust where they've been. Dust is a sign of mourning. It's a sign of degradation. They ought to get up out of the dust, out of their reason for mourning. They ought to rise. They ought to come in the house again because the Lord's going to accept them. They ought to take a bath and put on some new clothes and sit down with the Lord and share a meal with him once more, as he did previously before they deserted him. I loved the idea when I saw Arise, Sit down. That's a contradiction, but it's get out of the dust and sit down in dignity with the Lord, like on the throne, and put on the power of the priesthood, which is the robes. And Hoyt Brewster said it could also be, speaking of holy things in holy places, to put on robes, which I thought was cool.

[B]

Shout out to Cousin Paul. I wish I would have gotten a Little of that Old Testament expertise.

[C]

We'd come off section 109 and 110 where it was all temple. Then we saw concerns. We went through Joseph's concern for money and Thomas's concern for people in his quorum not keeping the commandments. It's almost as if Elias Higbee was a vehicle for Joseph Smith to remind him of the temple. You've had pretty heavy things being pounded at you. Let's remember the big picture, what we're all about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Susan, this is happening in the middle of some pretty intense times. Oh, very intense for Joseph Smith. In fact, I see that section 114 is April of 1838. Section 111, where we started, was August of 36. Two years. Almost two years has gone by. We went from the dedication of the Kirtland Temple to Joseph Smith is in Missouri. What's happened?

[C]

Well, very difficult time for him. Kirtland Safety Society, he and Sidney Rigdon. He will actually escape and work his way towards Missouri. By the time he's in Missouri, false brethren have made it there too. Once he gets in Missouri, he's holding court with the High Council on some of the men anyways. It's just such a difficult time. I don't know where the recipients of that difficult time, because you look at Kirtland like 1831, it's just Revelation after revelation. And then you find all these revelations in Kirtland and then all these revelations in Hiram, Ohio, and different places. And suddenly you come to this period and you go, where are the revelations at this point in Missouri? Joseph, because he's taking so much time at court and trying to get the church all together, he actually asked the Missouri Far West High Council if they could support his family for a year because he's without means and you have to wait for your crops to grow for the ever discredit of the High Council. They voted no at this time period. You get Joseph Smith, Emma, living in a home. And you get. It's like they do two blessings on the food. One is a blessing on food that isn't there. So they pray that somebody will be inspired in that town of Far west to bring the food. And then you get the awkwardness of someone coming to the door. I don't know why we killed so many chickens. You know, my wife was this. Here you go. And then Joseph blessing the food and then blessing the family that they will never want for a loaf of bread. John Tanner's obviously the best example of this. But I had an occasion in my happy World of research. Who else has wanted to go into these libraries where you need tetanus shots to walk in? You know, they're just out in the nowhere place at this point. You don't see them on Google. So I decided I would follow through the lives of those on the High Council that were serving at that time that voted to not help support Joseph and his family for that year. See what happened to them. And the interesting thing I found is that each one of those men at one point in their lives went through a difficult time financially. And there was a time in each one of their lives where they lacked the means for a loaf of bread. It's your ultimate example during this time period of as you judge, you will be judged. At one point I was asked in my stake to speak to the High Council. And I go, I'm going to tell them all about this High Council. What's the impact of it? Well, where are those revelations that we could have been blessed with? And I'd say Joseph's out being a farmer, trying to figure out how to support his family. Well, the church is struggling.

[B]

Wow, these are hard, dark years.

[C]

I know. Why did you guys ask me to come during this? I'm really a cheerful person.

[B]

And hey, don't worry, we have your colleague Alex Baugh, Dr. Baugh coming next week to talk about the lead up to Liberty Jail. Joseph is coming off some of the best years of his life to maybe the darkest few years of his life. I mean he's walking into a storm in Missouri that is going to turn into almost an all out war. So tell us about David Patton. Didn't he have a nickname, John?

[A]

Captain Fear Not. It's a great nickname.

[C]

That's the one you could use at one of those youth conferences. Captain Fear Not.

[B]

Captain Fear Not.

[C]

David W. Patton. When he's younger he's one of those searcher people that's looking for a church that can be in its purity, something that reminds him about the New Testament Church of Christ. He had a brother that wrote him a letter, indicated that he had just learned about the restoration and about a new church. David was so interested that he is reported to have gone 300 miles to Indiana to meet with his brother. He's convinced at that point about the Book Mormon, the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith and is baptized. He's ordained an elder as early as June of 1832 and returned to his home which at that time was in Michigan. At this point he becomes one of those, what you call a member missionary. He's Going around, he's preaching the gospel everywhere. He said he saw while on this type of mission. He saw that the deaf were made to hear, the blind could see, the lame were made whole. Fevers, palsies, crooked and withered limbs. In fact, all manner of diseases common to the country were healed. What he called by his use of the power of God. You'd say, john, you were some missionary. Wouldn't you have liked to have him as a companion? He'd say, you're up. I see somebody sick. Anyway, he moves from Michigan to Kirtland. Joseph asked him to go on to Clay County. He said, I received a blessing from Joseph before he moved on to Clay County. And in the blessing, he said the reason he was asked to go to Missouri at that time. He said, oh, may God grant it. A blessing for Zion as a kind angel from heaven. How'd you like that said about you? David's call to be an apostle like all the others in February. Notice it's February 14th. I always think it's Valentine's Day. Whether my husband remembers flowers, candies, all the above. I always say, it's a good day. We got the quorum of the 12, but all right. David comes in, he's an apostle. He receives a blessing that he is to be like one of old who bore testimony of Jesus. Well, he serves a mission to the eastern states. He then serves a mission in the southern states. He's actually arrested while on a mission in the southern states, in Tennessee, because his companion promised that anybody that accepted baptism would receive the Holy Ghost. And they were held under a $2,000 bond for saying such a thing. At the trial that is held for this missionary, this great missionary, David Patton, he delivers a speech about 20 minutes, which is said he held them spellbound. He told them of their wickedness and abominations that they were guilty of, and if they did not repent, they'd be in big trouble. He said that the judge was worried that maybe he had a weapon on him. And he says, my only weapon has given me the truth of God. But following the trial, he returns from the mission to Tennessee to Kirtland. He tells the prophet Joseph that he wishes he could die a martyr's death. Joseph replied, he said, when a man of your faith asks the Lord for anything, he generally grants it. So we need to all be careful if we get better and better, but we're probably safe. But then it says, On October 24, when news reached David that a mob had taken Latter Day Saint prisoners. They'd taken three Men there in Missouri. He said he determined he would rescue them with about 75 men. He volunteered to join him in an attempt to rescue them that day, a biographer writes, with the watchword God and liberty on his lips, David, ordering a charge, ran forward. The mob fled in confusion before the rush that followed. But as David led the pursuit down the riverbank, which was the crooked River, a mobber who had taken refuge behind a tree turned and shot him in the abdomen. David was carried from the battle site to a home of Stephen Winchester. In that home, he said, I have finished my course. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me. He also said, brethren, you have held me by your faith, but do give me up. Stop having so much faith that I can live. He goes, give me up. Let me go, I beseech you. And then David died in the evening of October 25, 1838, at age 38. I like what Joseph Smith wrote of this great man. He said, brother David W. Patton was a very worthy man, beloved of all good men who knew him. He was one of the 12 apostles and died as he lived, he a man of God and strong in the faith of a glorious resurrection in a world where mobs will have no power or place. At his funeral, the prophet Joseph pointed to his lifeless body and said, there lies a man that has done just as he said he would. He has laid down his life for his friends. That's David W. Patton. Yoonpress. Yeah, I am.

[A]

Oh, Captain, my Captain. Fear not.

[B]

The first martyr that I can think.

[C]

Of, Joseph's son, Joseph Smith. Murdoch Smith, back in the tar and feathering. But if you were to say first apostle, first Latter day Saint. But the fact he had said to Joseph he wanted to die a martyr, right? And then he got his wish. He was such a good man, the Lord took him up on it. Yeah.

[A]

If you've got a nickname, Captain fear not. That's pretty cool, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. If we were to look at section 14, it only has two verses, and if you're having students memorize a section, they might choose this one. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Verily, thus saith the Lord, it is wisdom in my servant David W. Patton that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can and make a disposition of his merchandise that he may perform a mission unto me next spring. That mission they're talking about, it's the mission of the quorum of the 12 to England when they're going to leave. April 26, 1839. From that far West Temple site. The Lord is saying, hey, get your house in order. I'm going to be calling you, but I'm going to give you time to get things ready. So you've got about a year to pull it together. And then he says, notice you're going to perform a mission unto me next spring, and company with others, even 12, including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings into all the world. In other words, this is the 12 going to leave from that far West Temple site. David, I'm giving you a year to get ready to go. You realize a lot of these men when they were called on missions. It's like you're called, and the next day you're on the trail and you're going, david's getting time. Then notice what it says in the end. For verily, thus saith the Lord, that inasmuch as there are those among you who deny my name, others shall be planted in their stead and receive their bishopric. Amen. What the Lord is saying, notice he said the 12. And then there's like a pause. And you'd say, the Lord knows that others are going to fall like Thomas B. Marsh is going to fall. Others are going to be called in to take their stead. Who's called in on that mission that David doesn't live to fulfill? Called in will be George A. Smith, member of the First Presidency, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards. You seeing what I'm saying? Those that we know and love. And you'd say, what can we say about them? They were called to take their place. They're called in their stead. And what do they all of them have in common? They're always faithful.

[A]

I love that you pointed that out. It's almost like in verse two, David, if you don't last, I'll send someone else.

[C]

It's interesting. By 1840, David's been gone for a while, right? There's a man named Seymour Bronson that dies in Joseph Smith's home. Heber C. Kimball says, I saw that David W. Patton, you know, has come to take him home. People didn't forget David. In other words, some people die and you go, well, pass the butter, right? Sorry to hear the news. You know, life is moving along. But in the case of David, he was remembered. So many people named their children after him after he had gone. I mean, he was just a standout. So as we all talk about Captain Moroni, I'd have to put him in the same category.

[A]

Wow, Wonderful.

[B]

Maybe a president of the church had he not died. Correct me if I'm wrong, Susan, lead us a little bit further. After the death of David Patton, things are going to continue to spiral. Lead us into next week.

[C]

When you look at the dates of how things spiral, it's kind of like within one week, you get the Battle of Crooked River. Then after the battle of Crooked river, within that same week, you've got the massacre at Hans Mill. You've got the betrayal of Joseph Smith by George Hankel. Then you get Joseph and the Brethren. There's a militia military court. They are condemned to be shot there at the far west center, which would make it the temple square. So it's like battle of Crooked river kicks everything off, but it goes very, very fast. And then Joseph's moved from there to Independence, to Richmond Jail, to Liberty Jail. It's pretty tough time for the prophet.

[B]

And he doesn't want war. He is not a violent person. If it were me, I might be. Let's go. But from what I've read, Susan, you know more than me, he is not prone to violence.

[C]

If he had decided violence. There's about 5,000 people in far west, and then they're in DeWitt. They're in all kinds of communities. Gallatin, there's a lot of communities around there. You know, he could have. Adam on diamond really pulled them together.

[B]

He had numbers.

[C]

Yeah, he had the numbers. And the ones that were faithful would.

[B]

Fall, would go, wow, Susan, this has been wonderful. I did not know a lot of this, especially this stuff on Isaiah. I think I had just kind of said, oh, yeah, I'm glad I'm talking about Isaiah. I love Isaiah. But you've got a nice mission statement there of the Lord, Joseph Smith, the church and the gathering.

[A]

What's going on?

[B]

We've been inspired by David W. Patton and John. We've learned a lesson in the scriptures. There are. What did you tell me?

[A]

When you find a name, it's either an example or a warning. Do what this person did or don't do what this person did.

[B]

Yeah, we've had plenty of those. Plenty of those today. Susan, I would love for you to just rant and vent Joseph Smith. Today in 2025, there is more evil spoken of Joseph Smith on a daily basis than ever before. With the rise of social media, everyone has a megaphone. And I'm sure when Moroni said, your name will be known for good and evil, he had to think across the world. And there's no way people on the other side of the world are really going to care about Me. And yet here we are. Susan, very few people know and have studied Joseph Smith's life like you have. It's been an incredible career. It's still going.

[C]

Huge privilege.

[B]

So I think our listeners would be interested. Here's someone who knows him, who's read what he's written, who knows where he was on a any given day. Joseph will probably ask you one day, Susan, where was I?

[C]

That on this date? Right.

[B]

Yeah. I would love for you to speak to our listeners, those who maybe even maybe doubt him or struggle. Oh, is Joseph really a prophet? What would you say?

[C]

I have had an opportunity to teach and study his life for decades. If you were to say, have I ever found any reason to pause and say, oh, wow, I don't think he's a prophet? I've never found that. I've thought when people have questioned it, his prophetic calling, it's because they don't know enough. They haven't exercised their faith, they haven't prayed. I've had people come up and ask horrible questions, and I go, you know the answer. But so many people don't want to hear the answer. I don't know how to say it better. They want to believe what they believe because it gives them excuse not to believe that he was a prophet. But I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and I wish I could say all my actions mirrored that knowledge. That's always a struggle. I know Joseph was a prophet. I've had thousands of students. I taught in an era where people had little tape recorders and they'd all rush up to my desk. My classes were 2, 300 students at a time. They would then tape and then share their tapes with people like family members. But I had one student named Clayton Pixton, who eventually settled out there in the Independence area in Kansas City, Missouri, faithful member of the church. He contacted me and said, I've listened to those old tapes again and again, and they're all wearing out. And I can hear students slamming their desks, their books on the floor, you know, whatever it is, they're laughing, and I couldn't hear all the words. What I'd really like to do is to do a free podcast for everybody. You just talk. And Clayton had the talent and has the talent to be able to sing, play the piano and the guitar. And I go, wait a minute, you're gonna rock out a little bit while I do the first vision. He goes, yeah, I could do that and make it so it's tolerable for people to listen to. We have done 26 episodes that are hour long episodes. I've done just the life of Joseph Smith and it's not like I name every blade of grass that he stepped on. But you may want to listen so you'll find if I did or not. But I thought many people didn't have the privilege that has been mine to go on site so many times and actually have a home in Nauvoo for 15 years and make sure that, you know, I had a chance to read all his words and to write about and learn about all the people that were baptized during the time he was president of the church. I am very grateful to Clayton for giving me that opportunity. But for those of you in this listening audience, you may want to tune into something called Impressions of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Then you'll know for sure. Hey, this lady really does have a testimony. I am a believer.

[B]

Susan, thank you for being here.

[C]

Oh, it's been a treat to see you both.

[B]

We hope everyone will go over to impressionsofaprophet.com what a wonderful treat, especially for those who were once in your class who think, oh, I would love to hear that again. Well, guess what? I remember that day a lot to listen to.

[A]

I just want to be more like Captain Fearnaught, except I don't want to depart early from this life.

[B]

Yeah, watch out what you ask for, right? Susan, what a treat again to have you back on Follow him. I know you don't think this, but it's truly legendary, your career at byu. I work in the building where you used to work. It's an honor to get to talk to students. They'll say, my parents, my dad, my mom had Susan Easton Black and I think, oh, I'm so sorry you have me. That's still being passed. I just feel like that is noteworthy. It's beautiful to give your life to speaking good of the prophet. Joseph Smith said his name would be known for both good and evil. Sometimes we don't speak enough good.

[A]

But you have thanks for being one of those voices.

[B]

It's the real one, John, the real Joseph Smith, not the villain that someone has created. With that. We want to thank Dr. Susan Easton Black for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen. We also every episode remember our founder Steve Sorensen and we hope you'll join us next week. Things are going to continue to get darker and darker for the Saints next week on Follow Him. Thank you for joining us on today's episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese or French, you can now watch. And to listen, listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today's show notes and transcript are on our website. Followhim. Co. That's followhim. Co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Kuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kawica, Sydney Smith and Annabel Sorensen. Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life.

[C]

And teachings of Jesus Christ.

[B]

Turn to him. Follow him.