A (5:26)

I'm so grateful for good scholars and scholarship like that. I tried to hunt it down myself. And that's when I found, well, actually it was Nephiteish. And I thought, well, that changes the meaning dramatically. I appreciate that. Restatement. This is a special place. From what we're reading right here.

C (5:43)

Yeah, Alex, for those listening, let me make sure I have it right. Maybe those listening, it'll benefit them because I want to make sure I get this right. This is why we have great scholarship like that. We don't have to perpetuate things that aren't true. Alex has done incredible work here to find out. Okay, what happened. Joseph Smith goes up to Spring Hill, which is outside of Caldwell County. It's north in Davies county, where Lyman White lives. So while there, he received section 116 saying, this is the place Adam on Diamond, which was referenced earlier in earlier sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. They also find an altar there. And according to George Robinson, while there, they find the remains of some stone structure. Joseph calls it Nephitish, which George Robinson, his clerk, writes, joseph called it Nephite Ish. I s H later on, Willard Richards is basically copying that into another. History changes Nephite ish to Nephite. BH Roberts, using Willard Richards, history perpetuates that same idea. I know this is getting complicated, Alex, but I think I got it so far.

B (7:01)

You got it.

C (7:02)

You're right on your research has shown that the word Nephitish is not Nephite. Nephitesh. Those are two different words, like the Nephites versus Nephite. Then in 1979, there's some archaeological work done there from Dr. What'd you say his name was?

B (7:22)

Ray Matheny.

C (7:23)

Matheny. He says, yes. What they found was probably between 500 to 1000 AD which you would say is Nephite Ish, like Nephite makes sense. Native American. But the reason a lot of Latter Day Saints, and even today Latter Day Saints go there and say, oh, Joseph Smith found Adam's altar is conflating two different ideas that Joseph would talk about Adam there, and Adam offered sacrifice here. Oh, and here's this pile of rubble. They conflate those two. Those statements get perpetuated. How did I do?

B (8:01)

That's well done. In summary, you can just basically say it wasn't Adamic. It doesn't come from Adam. It's thousands and thousands of years later. B, it's not Nephite. It's of Native American origin. This would be the Woodland period. That's all up and down the Mississippi Valley. It's prevalent. We can date that with great accuracy. But again, if you were a saint living in Missouri and you go up there and they say, well, this is where Adam offered sacrifices, you immediately associate what ruins you see there as being, oh, that must be his altar.

C (8:41)

Well, no, and Joseph Smith didn't say that.

B (8:45)

He didn't say that. Yeah. Yeah.

A (8:47)

My understanding is for years tourists would grab stones and take them home.

C (8:52)

Well, if you're going to find out.

A (8:54)

I got a piece of Adam's altar here. Right. Right over there by the dresser. And you're like.

C (9:02)

Alex, that is so helpful. John, I liked what you said. Good scholarship. That takes one, training, two, time and effort to comb through all of that.

A (9:14)

Alex, and the importance of finding the original source. Where's the first time this was written down? And that was your George Robinson statement.

B (9:23)

I was not the major player in that, but there was intentional purpose to try to help Latter Day Saints who love to go there, have a good experience and know what it really is. The signage there at Adam Ondiamond today is so good and it will explain some of these things that they're fables. It does not fit with the documentation. Let me just add something there to the Adam Ondiamond settlement. Fortunately, because of Lamar Barrett and I got to work with him on a few things before he retired and passed away. But he did extensive research on the settlement side of Andaman Diamond. There were no brick homes, but they have found some remnants of the LDS occupation. Lamar Barrett was able to find Lyman White's cabin. I think we can safely say that while they were on their horses, they did not have George Robinson write this information. They probably went to Lyman White's where they were staying and recorded what they had experienced that day. That cabin has been found. It has been marked. It's a little bit hard to find, but it is there, and we're absolutely certain that's where it was. He was also building a larger cabin up on the hill for those of who have been there. If you walk off the hill, what we call Tower Hill, there's a marker there where that stone structure was located. But if you walk off the hill there, off the hill a little bit is where another cabin was being built at the time that was unfinished, that Lyman White, before the Latter Day Saints, had to leave Adam on Diamond. But it's just a wonderful historic place, much misunderstood, but certainly sacred in terms of a sacred past. But also, I want to emphasize a sacred future. We probably can't even envision what's going to be there other than something super grand and glorious. Will let the gospel play out and see where and how that all happens in the end. But I believe the revelation with all my heart to know that this is part of the Lord's glorious Second Coming, where he will come to his Saints and at the place where Earth's history began. It will also be a place where it will end in some marvelous fashion. It's worth going to and feeling the idea of the spirit of what might have happened and what will happen.

A (12:04)

Hank, from now on, I'm going to call it Towerish Hill. When we go there.

C (12:08)

Tower. Tower.

B (12:09)

Ish.

C (12:10)

Up here. Now, everyone listening, be careful. If you go to Adam on Diamond and just start walking around. I had a good friend, his name's Dave Norton, lives up in northern Utah county, who was tromping around in there. We actually were sent out to read our scriptures. We were there as EFY counselors. He sat down in a tick's nest, and we spent the rest of the day picking ticks out of Dave. So, Dave, if you're listening, when I go to Adam on Diamond these days, I do not go and sit down in the grass.

A (12:49)

So memorable moment for a different reason.

B (12:52)

Also called chiggers. Yes.

A (12:55)

Oh, man.

B (12:57)

Yeah, you trounced through a little bit. You got to be careful. Yeah, be careful.

A (13:02)

Stay on the aircon bus and have somebody go read the plaque.

C (13:07)

That's a great idea, Alex. Let's keep going. Section 117, okay.

B (13:15)

The Saints are encouraged to leave Kirtland. There's land here available. Every aspect of encouragement was given. But we have a couple of our church leaders staying behind. I can understand. I'm sympathetic to them, both of whom had every reason to actually do that. But this revelation, again, is part of those four that are canonized on July 8th. Joel was trying to find out what counsel I need to give and what Lord would give for all these different things going on in Far West. But nonetheless, we are all familiar with the name of Newell K. Whitney. What a stalwart, stalwart person. He's tried to, of course, keep the church together in Kirtland for eight years. Seven. Eight years. Now everybody's leaving. Well, he needs to wrap up his business affairs and come to Missouri as well. The first part of section 17 is a calling both William Marks. Now, William Marks is the temporary or the. How do I say it? The replacement stake president. He's the stake president in Kirtland. Now, as Joseph saying, let's all gather to Missouri, to Far west, to Adam on Diamond, Davies County. Let's do it before the snow falls, okay? It's easier to travel in better weather. That's why they say, before the next snows, please come here and take up your residence for William Marks. Take up your residence in Far west, where he would be the stake President because he's transferring as being this short lived stake president in Kirtland become the stake president in Far West. Not surprising. Guess who was called to be the first stake president in Nauvoo but William Marks. But he never gets to get to Missouri because by the time he's going to try to come in route they're expelled and of course they'll be settling up in Commerce and then Nauvoo. He won't make it there in time to fulfill that hoped for recommendation to be the stake president. Same thing with Newell K. Whitney. He never made it to Missouri. He was trying to do his best to close up shop and come west. Sadly there is a reproof there that I think we can take too firmly maybe. But notice again, verse 11, let my servant Newell K. Whitney be ashamed of the Nicolaitan band and all their secret abominations and all of the littleness of soul before me. This is a reproof obviously that was probably having reference to your New Testament scholars would probably know more about this than I would. But to the Nicolaitans in Revelations Chapter two of the New Testament Bible commentaries believe they were a heretical set who followed the teachings of a man by the name of Nicholas who was one of the deacons of the early Christian church who became an apostate, denied the true faith and began leading people to commit sexual immorality. That's not a condemnation in the sense that he's associating with them, but I think he's trying to resolve the debts and the problems associated with the bank failure and other things. These people are bad people. Some of them back there leave things behind, come west. It's not that he is joining them or anything else. He's trying to resolve these issues. Now to replace that effort of Ulkay Whitney, Joseph sends Oliver Granger back there. Oliver Granger is meant to settle Joseph Smith's debts and the other problems associated with the failure of the bank. He goes back there and unfortunately he actually leads the church there because we're going to keep a group, they never come or they come really late to Nauvoo, but he's going to preside over the saints there for a short time. Unfortunately he dies in 1841 and his gravestone you can see in the Kirtland north cemetery there. His daughter is Sarah Melissa Granger Kimball who becomes a very influential women's leader in the Relief Society and a terrific person. And of course it's her little sewing group that gets the Relief Society started. That's Just a little postscript. But anyway, section 117, I wouldn't read too harsh a condemnation on both these men. Just Lord and Joseph saying, we need to close up shop, come where the saints are.

C (17:57)

Yeah, I like that. Newark Whitney has done some incredible things. This should not be the verse that you go, okay, that's what he's all about. He's not part of this apostate group. He is associating with them. And the Lord's like, leave it and come and get out of there. And he's probably out of the goodness of his heart, he's friends with some of these people. He's trying to work it out. And the Lord's saying, not going to work. Let's go.

B (18:26)

No question about it. Follow what I'm teaching you and telling you to do. Come and open that heart up and don't try to stay any longer. Hank, you said that very, very well.

C (18:38)

All right, we're going to move now to 1:18.

B (18:41)

At the beginning of the podcast, you read that wonderful introduction where we've lost four apostles, and in short order, we actually lose a couple more. It's a call for the new members of the quorum of the 12 to go on a collective mission to Great Britain. Now, this would be the second mission of the Quorum leadership, but in this case, the first mission being the Heber C. Kimball Orson Hyde mission in 1837, in which they go to the Preston area, Lancashire county in England. They're so successful. Joseph is getting word from England of the success of these two great apostles and says it's time we send the missionary effort by means of the entire quorum of the 12. This is an important revelation for a couple of reasons. Those are the two reasons, really. We've got to continue the mission in a second wave. Two, we've got to fill that quorum. Let's go to verse six. Here's the people who are going to be called here. John Taylor, Johnny Page, Wilford Woodruff, and Willard Richards, who are the ones that we've lost. These are the following that will be familiar to many Latter Day Saints. The first one is John F. Boynton. Boynton is an incredible figure in early church history, but he was part of the Kirtland fallout, as is Lyman E. Johnson and Luke S. Johnson. These are two of the brothers that were part of the John Johnson, Alice or Elsa Johnson family. Then the final one is McClellan, and he's going to cause a little bit more problems later down the road here. Well, these are the ones called to fulfill that, and you can see that now in verse six is John Taylor, Johnny Page, Wilford Woodruff, and Willard Richards. Now off the top of your head, which two names stick out of those four? Future president John Taylor and future president Wilford Woodruff. Well, look who's stuck in the middle is John E. Page. Had Johnny Page remained faithful, he outlived John Taylor, he could have been president of the church based upon the seniority in the quorum of the 12. Side note, but you can't beat John Taylor or Wilford Wood for greatness as presidents. But I thought that was quite interesting. And of course, Willard Richards is going to play an important role as well for many years. But he dies in the 1850s. But anyway, those are the four who are called. Well, when are they supposed to go? Well, Joseph receives this revelation which says, let them go next spring and depart and go over the great waters and there promulgate my gospel. But when are they supposed to actually make that departure? What date? Can we tie that in with another revelation?

C (21:49)

April 26th.

B (21:51)

Okay. Do you remember again, we talked about section 115 saying that they were recommence building, but they were to come assemble at Far West. We'll rededicate the site, we'll start the construction and we'll send you guys off. Most Latter Day Saints have heard the story where most of the Latter Day Saints left Far West, Caldwell county and Davies County. In February and March of 1839, they make their way to Quincy, including members of the 12. Sure enough, April's coming around the corner. They have a conference in the church in Quincy. The question is asked, should the 12 go back and there fulfill the revelation? Hold it. We just left and we need to go back. I think it was Joseph Smith Sr. Joseph's father, said Brigham, the will is the deed. The Lord knows you want to go, but the circumstances are such that it's going to be pretty hard. Brigham thinks about it and says, let's go. It's a little messy, but. By April 1839, when the Twelve returned to Far west, there were only eight ordained apostles. And unfortunately, Orson Hyde was not in good standing. Only five of the members of the 12 who had been ordained went. But they also took Wilford Woodruff, who has now not been ordained. But he's caught up to them. He had been in Maine and was leading a group of Latter Day Saints west. He received his letter of appointment to the 12 telling him, Come to Far West. Well, he got as far as Illinois. And George A. Smith was also not ordained. And he's been added to the quorum because we've lost Thomas B. Marsh. Marsh is now out. I know that's a little confusing, but the point is we have enough apostles. We have a majority quorum.

C (23:53)

7 of 12, I think.

B (23:54)

7 of 12. So they get there. They came under cover of darkness. Of course. This was one of the Missouri antagonists. A man by the name of Sam Bogart. He's all over the board against the Latter Day Saints. He turned out to be a real dog breath bad word. But my seminary teacher used that all the time. Daryl Dixon.

C (24:20)

But anyway, he was a dog breath.

B (24:22)

He ended up. After the Latter Day Saints left, he murdered a guy and then fled to Texas. There were some bad guys involved in all this. He apparently was aware of this so called revelation that the 12 should return and, and he said they won't dare. This is the craziest thing I've ever heard. They were a little bit worried, but they made it there under the COVID darkness and in the early morning hours, I'm guessing probably 4, 5, 6 o'. Clock. While there they had this wonderful, wonderful ceremony. I hope you don't mind, I'm going to read Wilford Woodruff's account. This is the only time he's been to Missouri since, well, he came on Zion's camp. That was it. But he wasn't part of the Far west experience. He comes back and he's the best journal keeper on planet Earth. Here he says this in his journal. At a council held at Far west by the 12 High Priests, Elders and Priests on 26th April, 1839, the following resolutions were adopted. Now there were a few other stragglers that assembled there resolved that the following persons should no more be fellowshipped into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but excommunicated from the same. He then lists the name of 20 individuals. So they said, sorry you guys didn't hold up. The council then proceeded to the building spot of the Lord's house. When the following business was transacted, part of a hymn was sung on the mission of the 12. Elder Cutler, this is Alpha Cutler, the master workman of the house. Then recommenced laying the foundation of the Lord's house, agreeable to the revelation by rolling up a stone near the southeast corner. If you see that southeast corner, apparently he moved it more into place. That cornerstone is still there. And John, you mentioned it and I'll tell you a little story about that. The following of the 12 were present again. This is Wilford Woodruff. Brigham Young Heber C. Kimball, Orson Pratt, Johnny Page, and John Taylor. By the way, Johnny Page and John Taylor had been ordained in December before the Exodus, who had been previously nominated by the First Presidency, accepted by the 12 and acknowledged by the Church. So he's acknowledging their replacement also. Then he says they were ordained to the Office of the 12 to fill the place of those who had fallen. Darwin Chase and Norman Shear, who had recently been released from Richmond Jail. These were two young guys. They let him go. This is where Parley P. Pratt is stuck, along with King Follett and some others. But these two young men were released. They met him there. Then they said that they were ordained to the office of 70s. Well, here it is. The 12 then offered up a vocal prayer in the following order. Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Pratt, Johnny Page, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and George A. Smith. There's the new ones and the current ones, after which we sang Adam on diamond. There you go. And then the Twelve took the parting hand, their leave of following the Saints, agreeable to revelation. Then he mentions others who were there. Elder Alphaeus Cutler then placed the stone before alluded to in its regular position, after which, in consequence of the peculiar situation of the Saints, he thought it wisdom to adjourn until some future time when the Lord should open the way, expressing his determination then to proceed with the building. That's straight from Wilford Woodruff Journal. We hope maybe we can come back and finally put this thing together. But I'm just so grateful he did that. After the Saints leave, John Whitmer, who'd been a member of the Missouri Presidency, along with his brother David Whitmer and W.W. phelps, the Whitmer family, the whole clan, moved to Richmond. But when the Mormons were leaving Far west, he said, well, it was in my name and in Phelps's name I'm going to go back and occupy that property. Which he did. He died in 1878. He lived just a half a mile west of the temple site. The interesting thing about him is that he retained that temple property and deemed it as being sacred. He believed in the Restoration. He just couldn't come to grips with some of the leadership responsibilities and Joseph Smith in some other kinds of ways. But the point is, he oversaw that property where that temple corner was part of his property. He maintained that he wouldn't let anyone disturb it, and it fell fallow. I mean, cattle would graze there. But he left the stones intact. When the church purchased this property, well, it's actually purchased by Missouri, actually, The Central State's mission president, a man by the name of Samuel O. Bennion. Then from that point, the church owns it. But the point is, we just left it fallow. Then the decision was made with Alvin R. Dyer to actually go back there and restore that property a little bit. After all, it is a temple dedicated site. The interesting thing is Latter Day Saints can go there. And John, you mentioned it, and Hank, you've been there. Emil Fetzer, who was the architect, planned for those stones to be embedded in cement so they wouldn't deteriorate as much. It probably wasn't the best thing to do, but that's what was decided. But every time we go there for years, I said, I want you to stand on the southeast corner where Wilford Woodruff and George A. Smith were ordained apostles. I took my kids, we went to Liberty Jail, and they go, where are we going, Dad? I said, we're going up to Far West. Okay, what's up there? And I explained all these things. I said, but when we get there, I'm going to take your picture and you're going to stand on the very cornerstone that George A. Smith and Wilford Woodruff ordained apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ. I'm going to take your picture, and someday you'll take it to your seminary class and you'll show him when you're talking in church history or Doctrine and Covenants. So we get up there, I think it was 1995.

C (30:35)

We're going to be the coolest kids in school with our picture.

B (30:40)

Because if that's cool, you know, we get up there, we walk over there, and sure enough, the sites people had put down these. You've seen them, these Plexiglas covers over, and my kids are going, neener, neener, neener, dad, you can't do it. I said, no, hold it. Let me look here. Well, there's this gap space underneath, and they've actually put some two by fours in there.

C (31:05)

They are really trying to stop you.

B (31:08)

Yeah, they're going to stop me. I. I move those two by fours over. You get out on your knees, and you stick your hand in there. I'm going to take your picture. You're touching the stone, and they're going, dad, come on. No, dad, no. And it's muddy, and it was. It was wet. I said, you get down. Sure enough, they do. This was in the days before digital photography. I can't find that photo anywhere. No, no, I can't find it. But we came back when Lincoln turned 200 and we went to Springfield came back and we said, yep, you're going to do the same thing, because I can't find that photo. So I took them with their holder, too. Anyway, it's just a funny thing about us, but I do tell my students, when you go to Far west, go down there, touch that stone, send me a picture. I've already gotten one from fall semester. They've been sending them to me from time to time.

C (32:00)

I think I sent one to you once.

B (32:02)

You probably did, Hank.

A (32:04)

I'm going to do one next year.

C (32:06)

Yeah.

B (32:07)

So, John, we need one from you.

A (32:09)

Okay, deal.

B (32:10)

That was a crazy diversion, but sacred ground for a lot of reasons. One of them is where the 12 left on their mission and where George A. Smith and future president of the church, Wilford woodruffordained Apostles.

C (32:25)

Well, I think we'll give out your email address and see if we can get a couple thousand of those pictures.

A (32:29)

People touching that stone. I remember that following this, you know, because there had been threats. You can't come back here. As you were saying, you can't come back to Far West. It's too dangerous. But Brigham Young leads him under the COVID of night. They do the business there, exactly as outlined here in section 118. But on their way home, they wanted to stop by apostate Isaac Russell's house. So Theodore Turley knocks on the door and his wife says, oh, come in. Brother Turley says, well, I can't. I'll lose my company. They see Isaac Russell. He says, who's your company? And he says, the 12. It repeats that. The 12. Basically, they fulfilled the prophecy and they.

B (33:15)

Had to let him know.

C (33:16)

He had to let him know.

A (33:17)

He had to let him know. It meant that much that we just fulfilled it. See you later. But I kind of like that idea of we're going to make sure this. If we have something to do with it, we're going to make sure this revelation is fulfilled.

B (33:33)

It left a real legacy of their faith, their commitment to fulfill a revelation in spite of the circumstances. Yeah.

C (33:43)

Tells you about Brigham too, doesn't it?

A (33:46)

Lion of the lord.

C (33:48)

Alex, section 119 has some impact on the rest of the church, even to this day.

B (33:58)

No question about it.

A (34:00)

Has that had an impact. Hank, what's in 119?

C (34:03)

Yeah, I mean, Alex is dealing with the name of the church. That major change in 115. Now, it's not a new idea, but it's going to be implemented in the church tithing. Talk to us about this.

B (34:16)

Well, it actually goes back to December of 1837. When they start settling in far west, they come up into Caldwell County. The Missouri bishopric at that time again was Edward Partridge, Isaac Morley and this John Corll. They didn't have a lot to have consecrated because they're getting kicked around. The Missouri bishopric proposed that the saints in Missouri be tithed 2% of their annual net worth which would fulfill consecration. Does that make sense? If you had two cows, a wheelbarrow, I mean, I can't even figure it out. But the point is, take your net worth. What's 2% of that? If every one of you do that, that will be our consecration. You know, you don't have property right now or whatever. That was the effort. Now we've tried to explain that in the Joseph Smith Papers volume. But instead of consecrating everything to the bishop just consecrated 2% of your net worth. And we can probably sustain some of the financial situation of the church. And in other words, your consecration for this year would be 2% of what you have in your net worth.

C (35:34)

They're altering it a little bit. What they were trying to do in Jackson County. We're not doing that up here. We're going to do something a little different.

B (35:41)

Yeah, you don't consecrate your entire thing and then we give you a deed. We've got to jump start this thing. 2%. You have $100 worth of property. Yours is $2 of ownership. That's what they were doing. Then here comes Joseph Smith. They're going, well, is this going to work? He inquires and says very plainly, the revelation says, okay, the bishop's going to oversee this, okay, verse one. Because he's the one who has received consecrated properties before. But we need to build the temple in Far West. We have debts that we're going to incur, but we will from here on out call our consecration. I guess you could say simply tithing. Their definition of this in this revelation is after that, after you've consecrated 2% of your net worth. From here on out, the best way we can manage consecration is by saying after that. Those who have been tithed shall pay 1/10 of all their interest annually. This shall be a standing law unto them forever. For my holy priesthood, saith the Lord, we're not giving out consecration deeds and saying, this is yours. You give it to us and we give it back. Now here's your stewardship. Give us the surplus. Your surplus every year is 10% of your interest or income. Does that make sense?

C (37:14)

I'm channeling my inner Steve Harper here this doesn't replace the law of consecration that we promise in the temple, that we covenant in the temple. We're not in Jackson county anymore.

B (37:26)

Your consecration and my consecration and everyone's consecration is the same 10% of your interest annually or income. Again, they're living consecration. It's just your consecration is now equal across the board. Your stewardship is your personal property. And I'm trying to say we're still living consecration, just in a different format. That may or may not make sense, but they clearly understood, even though today it's a little bit easier for us in a lot of ways because we're in a monetary society versus an agrarian one, they would have had to adapt somewhat. Try to figure out, okay, what is it that the Lord would accept of my consecration? Tithing is the donation of one tenth of one's income to God's Church. That's DNC 1193 and 4. Interest is understood to mean income. All members who have income should pay tithing. Interest in this context refers to any profit, compensation or increase, including wages, business profits, or any other source of income. The Lord still leaves it up to the individual to this is what the guidelines are. This is what a full tithe would represent in that terminology. I do have to say I love Thomas Monson's statement here. Every bishop can testify from personal experience that when members of the church pay their tithing honestly and faithfully, they have very little difficulty keeping the other commandments of God. It's a great measuring tool for activity, for responsibility, for commitment in the church. Our saints do a great job. I think any bishop will say they are consecrated beings. My ward is a consecrated and time talents tithing. What a great thing this is. President Oaks Testimony of tithing given in April 1994. During World War II, my widowed mother supported her three young children on a school teacher's salary that was meager. When I became conscious that we went without some desirable things because we didn't have enough money, I asked my mother why she paid so much of her salary as tithing. I. I've never forgotten her explanation. Dallin There might be some people who can get along without paying tithing, but we can't. The Lord has chosen to take your father and lead me to raise you children. I cannot do without the blessings of the Lord. I obtain those blessings by paying an honest tithing. When I pay my tithing, I have the Lord's promise that he will bless us. We must have those blessings if we are to get along. Isn't that a great Perspective. We all can testify the blessings of tithing. And it's not just monetary. It's so many other aspects of life that seem to come together and work together for our good.

A (40:29)

I remember this verse from seminary a long time ago. This stone, this is Genesis, chapter 28, verse 22. This stone which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house. And of all that thou shalt give me, I will surely give the tenth unto thee. That shows you the ancient roots of the idea of the 10th. Which is interesting, but I think what you were teaching us, Alex, what I experienced doing tithing settlement was it was a joy to meet with those consecrated saints, let's put it that way. Some of those members, I saw them on Sundays. I didn't see them in the bishop's office very, very often except for a recommend or tithing settlement. But that was some of the sweetest times, was those they would have been there no matter who the bishop was. They loved the Lord, and for that they loved the. Of all you've given me, I'll surely give the 10th to the Lord. That was a sweet time.

B (41:27)

Yeah.

C (41:28)

I've occasionally heard critics of the church talk about this greedy church that has X amount of dollars and still takes 30 cents from this person in Africa. In my mind, the reason the church asks this is because the church and we here truly believe that tithing blesses the tithe payer. We believe that we would not want to take that opportunity for. For a blessing from someone else. I get that some people do not understand how that blesses the tithe payer. But all three of us would say, no, tithing blesses me more than the money I'm giving, more than the church. I do not want to miss out on those blessings like President Oak's mother, Seth.

A (42:19)

This is one of the easier things. It's like simple math. Hank, it's that poster I saw. Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.

B (42:33)

Yeah.

A (42:34)

For me, it's like, oh, this is one of the easier ones.

C (42:39)

What does Paul say? The natural man cannot receive the things of God. They are darkness to him.

B (42:46)

I've always told my children, I promise you, you can always get along better with 9/10 than 10/10. It's kind of incongruent faith. It doesn't make sense on paper, but you'll be just fine. You will receive blessings. The Lord pours them out. You don't have room enough to receive it.

C (43:05)

Just personally, I love money. It's a Bad thing. But, I mean, it's pretty toxic. I even ironed my money when I was a kid. I love money. One way that tithing has blessed me is it checks my heart periodically. Do you still love me more than these? I have to have that regular check in with the Lord. Yes, I still love you more than this. For me personally, I cannot go without tithing, because money can, for me personally, get into my heart.

B (43:41)

Hank.

A (43:41)

Alex. When I was on my mission, I got a letter from my dad. And he told me when he was investigating the church he joined when he was 24, he had heard the promise of Malachi, which is like over the top beautiful. I will open you the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing. There shall not be room enough to receive it. And my dad said, I decided to pay tithing before I was baptized to see what would happen. I thought, wow, dad, that's pretty cool. So he sent me that letter when I was on my mission, and the rest is history. Prove me now. Herewith. Try it. See what happens.

B (44:20)

I do remember a talk by President Hinckley says what's so remarkable about tithing is if the government did a similar program, everyone share and share alike. And if you don't have much, you don't have to give much. It would solve our tax laws almost immediately.

A (44:38)

Yeah. Instead of volumes of tax law. It's always been interesting to me that when this widow threw her might, the widow's might, into the temple treasury, Jesus didn't say, guys, go get that and give it back to her. He let her do that. It blesses those who have so little and those who have so much. It's a check on our heart, like you said, Hank.

C (45:04)

Yeah. In the manual, there's a link to Elder Bednar's 2013 talk, the Windows of Heaven. He makes an invitation here. It's pretty bold. He says, the honest payment of tithing is much more than a duty. It is an important step in the process of personal sanctification. To those of you who pay tithing, I commend you. To those of you who presently are not obeying the law of tithing, I invite you to consider your ways and repent. I testify that by your obedience to this law of the Lord, the windows of heaven will be opened to you. Please do not procrastinate the day of your repentance. I testify spiritual and temporal blessings come into our lives as we live the law of tithing. It's a wonderful talk. You should read the whole thing. He talks about being on the Council of the Disposition of the Tithes in the talk and his experiences there. It's really wonderful. Alex, do we want to look at section 120?

B (46:13)

Yeah. This is really, in a sense, a continuum of 119. In other words, okay, this is the law of the Tithe that we're going to institute at this point in time. But who manages those offerings? We know the bishop receives them in behalf of the church. But what about disbursement today and today? This is a very simplistic explanation. But Section120 has been a really good guide for the presence and administrations of the Church simply because the First Presidency will have complete oversight of the ties of the Church, helped and assisted by the Bishop and his council. Now, again, in 1838, this would have been Bishop Partridge and Isaac Morley and then John Cora at one time, but Titus Billings then the other one mentioned, of course, is and by my High Council. Well, you got to remember the quorum of the 12 is headed all the way to Great Britain. They're initially not involved in this, like we would say today. Meaning the quorum of the 12 is part of that disposition of the Council of Tit. I think this was given to say, okay, who should oversee it? The 12 are leaving. Well, the First Presidency isn't. The bishop's here. And we have a high council. We have the first Presiding bishopric of the Church. That became their responsibility as well as the quorum of the 12 when there was no way you can have individual councils of high priests stake high councils manage the affairs. So it only makes sense. I have to say, this verse is a sense quoted every single April conference when an independent auditor indicates when the audit report is executed that it has been done under the direction of the Council on the Disposition of Time. It's usually one where I tell my kids, you can probably not watch General Conference and go get your ice cream and come back during the audit report. But it's nonetheless to try to demonstrate to the Church that your funds, your tithes, are honestly kept and expended.

A (48:37)

Imagine the burden of that. I think I remember that President Hinckley said he had a widow's mite on his desk to remind him of those out there paying tithing and to be careful how you use this money. And I trust them. Once it's gone, it's gone. For I know they feel that burden, John.

C (48:55)

I hope everybody heard that, because I'd say it, too. I trust the church. I trust that council. I trust them. I will continue to pay my tithing.

B (49:07)

The weight of the responsibility of those precious sacrifices by, like you say, the widow in West Africa, that's got to bear some weight on them.

C (49:20)

I'm sure the Lord takes that very seriously and I'm sure they do as well. I want to give everybody listening an opportunity here. If you're like me and you're almost addicted to Alex Baugh and you want to continue this discussion, we'll put a link in our show notes for we actually did three parts of an episode four years ago for section 121 through 123, where Alex basically fills in the gap here and between section 120 and 121. So you could say, I would love for this to continue. Well, you can get a younger version of Alex four years ago. We also have out a Voices of the restoration episode with Dr. Dirkmaat about the period here between section 120 and 121, even before.

B (50:04)

I really hope the Adam on Diamond meeting will include mortals, resurrected beings and spirit world soon to be. I'll look forward to being with you. Two wonderful people will return there.

C (50:20)

Well, I'll find you, Alex. I'm sure you'll have a front row seat. There'll be reserved seating for you, vip.

A (50:27)

They're going to need some help setting up the chairs. I mean, I want to come.

B (50:32)

Well, I probably have to take them down. So I'm one of those who'd be.

C (50:37)

Like, can I zoom in? Is there a zoom option? Alex, thank you for this. You've walked us through the history and these sections. John, I've had listeners tell me, I feel like I'm getting a BYU education. When you sit at the feet here of Alex Baugh and he opens up the scriptures and the history and puts them together, they come to life. Alex, I'm going to ask you to do something here. And I know you didn't prep for this. Like I said when we started, you love these people. You've come to know them. When the saints are driven out of Far West. There's a group of people in October of 1838, many of whom are coming from Kirtland, like you said at Haun's Mill. One of them is Amanda Barnes Smith and her husband and children. I've heard you talk about her and I would love for our listeners to hear you talk about her. You didn't prep for this, so you don't need to give us all the ins and outs and details that I've heard you give before. I think it's a great example of how someone in Our church who does beautiful history also comes to love these people.

B (51:53)

Well, that's really sweet. This is Amanda Barn Smith. She had a husband named Warren. She's part of what we call the Kirtland poor camp. Their family, they were one of the last groups to leave Kirtland. They were led by members of the 70. In fact, in her group was Brigham Young's brother was leading that group. They had 16 miles to go before they arrived at Far West. And they were the last company to leave Kirtland. And they were stopped in route by a number of antagonists who ripped on them a little bit and tried to discourage them. It was really frightening to them. But they got to Hans Mill. Jacob Hahn was not a Latter Day Saint, but he had gathered a bunch of families around his compound there. A number of Latter Day Saints lived there and worked. And last stopping point before the final dozen or so miles to get to Far West. But they would stop there to kind of recoup and regenerate. This is when the marauders, the antagonists from Davies and Livingston counties, about 200 armed men, made an attack on the settlement community. These were innocent people. They hadn't done anything to anyone, but nonetheless, they were in a wagon. They didn't have much protection, but there were threats. And sure enough, the attack occurred on October 30, 1838, the afternoon. And her husband, like many of the men, when they saw this group, they sought seclusion in the blacksmith shop, hoping to protect themselves in some way. And the other women and children fled. The result being that Amanda lost her husband to a brutal attack. And also a son named Sardius. Another little son named Alma was with his father and with his brother in the blacksmith shop. And Ruffian had put his gun through the cracks in the wall and shot and blew his hip off, basically the hip bone. His brothers was shot in the head and his father was killed also. After the attack, Amanda goes in and realizes the problem and was totally overcome with grief. A lot of the men again, there weren't a lot of men left, and they had to bury their family members. There was no place for burial except this well that had been dug and it was dry. They didn't strike water, but the ground is hard. It's getting late in the season, the fall. They decided they had to remove the bodies and put them in this makeshift grave. And she just couldn't stand to see this little boy Sardius be put in. And sure enough, they had him on a board or a plank of some sort and she said it was just heart wrenching to see that body drop into the well that was covered up. And then she had to take care of this boy with this huge injury. But she prayed for help and received inspiration to put some poultice from a slippery elm bark or something like that and said that God could heal her son and she had the faith that he would be okay. Sure enough, the little boy recovered about six weeks later. He was actually walking around. The power of this woman's faith, it was so tremendous. But what happens is they came back later and some of these men occupied the community. And she had a horse, and that ruffian was going to take the horse. This was too much. So she went into the woods or somewhere to pray. What came to her was that if we don't sing the seventh verse, how firm a foundation. We've missed that whole hymn, but the words came. That soul who hath leaned on me for repose I shall not I cannot desert to his foes Though all hell shall endeavor to shake I'll never, no, never no, never forsake to me that's a super testimony of a person who can really sacrifice anything and everything for the gospel. My family's from Logan. My wife's family's from Richmond. Amanda Barnes Smith, years later, was visiting her daughter up in Richmond in Cache Valley. She passed away there. And since her daughter and family there, they buried her in the Richmond cemetery. Memorial Day, when we go up to Cache Valley, I always stop in and get a couple of roses and put them on her grave. I tell others that your sacrifice is meaningful to God. But some paid a supreme sacrifice which we ought to always remember. And I do.

C (56:59)

Thank you for that. I remember you telling me that story many, many years ago, John. This is at byu. We call them Disciple Scholars. That's Alex. Alex, thank you for spending your time with us today and thank Susan for us, please.

B (57:16)

I will.

C (57:17)

Yeah. We love being with you.

B (57:18)

It's an honor to be with you. Thank you for all you do, bringing the gospel to more people in a very powerful way.

C (57:28)

We love it here. I was looking forward to this all year and it lived up to every expectation. So fun, so fun. With that, we'd like to thank Dr. Alex Baugh for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorenson. Every episode, we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you join us next week. We're in Liberty Jail on Follow Him. Thank you for joining us on today's episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese or French, you can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today's show notes and transcript are on our website. Followhim. Co. That's followhim. Co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Kuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, Sydney Smith and Annabelle Sorenson.

B (58:31)

Whatever questions or problems you have, the answers are always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.