Podcast Summary: followHIM – Doctrine & Covenants 121-123 Part 1 with Dr. David Holland (October 15, 2025)

Episode Overview

Theme:
Hosts Hank Smith and John Bytheway, joined by Dr. David Holland (Harvard Divinity School), explore Doctrine & Covenants Sections 121-123. The episode centers on the Lord’s revelations to Joseph Smith during his imprisonment in Liberty Jail—focusing on suffering, leadership, revelation, and the universal human experience of adversity. The speakers discuss the historical and scriptural context, as well as personal application, making these sections deeply relatable for listeners.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Universality of Suffering and Revelation

(05:51–13:50)

• Dr. Holland sets the stage by highlighting how experiences of adversity are universal, connecting Joseph Smith’s despair in Liberty Jail to similar moments in world and scriptural history, including Job and George Washington during the American Revolution.
  • “We’ve all had those long dark nights of the soul… Yet the general experience of a sense of forlornness… is among the most universal of human experiences.” (02:06, Dr. Holland)
• Historical perspective:
  • Dr. Holland references Tom Paine’s encouragement to American soldiers—“Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods” (08:23), drawing parallels between the cost of liberty and the price Joseph Smith paid for revelation.

2. The Language of Suffering: Literary and Doctrinal Beauty

(10:30–13:50)

• Vivid scriptural imagery in these sections (the pavilion of God, lambs among wolves, billowing surges) arises from deep anguish—just as great literary works often do.
  • “This is an imagery, an evocative expression, that can only come out when those deepest heartstrings are being plucked by the urgency of despair...” (13:06, Dr. Holland)

3. Shared Suffering & “Liberty Jail Moments”

(16:22–18:58)

• Personal application:
  • The Lord’s ability to consecrate even our darkest moments for growth is a recurring gospel theme.
  • Elder Jeffrey R. Holland’s speech “Lessons from Liberty Jail” is invoked: “Every one of us is going to spend a little time in Liberty Jail.” (17:34, Hank Smith quoting Elder Holland)
  • Dr. Holland: “That’s probably not straight out of Madison Avenue, but it is the message of Scripture.” (18:58)

4. Five P’s to Cope with Adversity

(01:58–04:08)

• Dr. Holland introduces five “P”s as guiding principles:
  • Perspective – Seeing beyond present suffering
  • Patience – Enduring through adversity
  • Persistence – Continuing in faith
  • Presence – Feeling God’s nearness
  • Power – Relying on divine strength
  • “...perspective, patience, persistence, presence, and power...will help us navigate these remarkable sections...” (03:44, Dr. Holland)

5. The Value of Perspective in Suffering

(22:16–27:54)

• Maintaining perspective is most difficult in pain; the Lord gently helps Joseph (and us) see beyond current trials.

  • “My wife has to tell me: no, they’ll go by pretty fast, just like the others. But at times the days go by slow in suffering.” (22:40, Hank Smith)

• Mistaking suffering for God’s absence:

  • Joseph asks if God’s “heart is softened.” Dr. Holland relates personal stories warning against equating hard circumstances with God’s displeasure.
  • “The appearances of the moment will never be equal to the profundity of [God’s] care.” (27:29, Dr. Holland)

6. The Central Role of Revelation (“Rolling Waters Remain Impure”)

(29:31–33:50)

• Knowledge as a promise:
  • Section 121’s rivers (Missouri and Jordan) symbolize the unstoppable flow of divine revelation.
  • “As long as revelation is flowing… you will have the ability to navigate the things that life presents to you, but make sure you keep it flowing… Life without it is not life.” (32:00, Dr. Holland)
  • Link to Peter at Caesarea Philippi and the life-giving river as a metaphor for ongoing revelation.

7. God’s Empathy, Friendship, and Cosmic Perspective

(34:14–39:05)

• The Lord comforts Joseph by affirming his friendships—human and divine.

  • “The Lord knows how to speak to our particular need… Joseph as his friend. There is a kind of implication here when the Lord says, ‘Thy friends stand by thee,’ ...I am your friend.” (19:53, Dr. Holland)

• God as both intimate and sovereign:

  • “God loved us both in the place that we were—in the grand scheme of things, perhaps my little high school worries were as important to the Lord as my father’s global concerns.” (36:34, Dr. Holland)

8. Leadership, Authority, and “Unrighteous Dominion”

(39:05–47:28)

• Nature of authority:

  • The Lord warns against the abuse of authority, teaching that power and influence must be grounded in virtue, persuasion, long-suffering, and love. This is the “master class in priesthood leadership.”
    • “It is the nature and disposition of almost all men that as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.” (40:56, D&C 121:39, highlighted by Dr. Holland)

• Dr. Holland’s experience as a bishop during the 2008 financial crisis:

  • “I’d been praying for confidence and it wasn’t coming… The Lord says here that confidence is a product of charity.” (44:27, Dr. Holland)

• Loving within the “household of faith”:

  • Why charity is mentioned twice—because it’s often hardest to love those nearest to us (ward members, fellow Saints).
    • “Sometimes we’re bending over backwards to be charitable and patient with people that never really darken the door of the building. And yet we’re really impatient and sharp with the person sitting next to us...” (45:56, Dr. Holland)

9. Personal Application: Parenting and Reproving with Love

(51:38–55:28)

• Leadership principles apply to parenting:

  • Hank Smith shares a parenting moment about making “new rules”—recognizing that control without relationship leads to regression, not progress.
    • “Those shortcuts end up costing you enormous sums in the long run because the pup grows up.” (52:36, Hank Smith)

• Proportionality of truth and grace:

  • “There is no substitute for the ratio that’s described in 43—reproving betimes with sharpness, but then showing forth afterward an increase of love.” (52:32, Dr. Holland)
  • Elder H. Burke Peterson: “Reproving with sharpness means reproving with clarity, with loving firmness… It does not mean reproving with sarcasm or with bitterness or with clenched teeth and a raised voice.” (53:45, John quoting Peterson)

10. What Does It Mean to be “Chosen”?

(56:25–58:44)

• Differentiating “called” vs. “chosen”:
  • “I wonder if sometimes it’s not so much that there are really substantive differences between the words called and chosen… we have chosen to hear that calling. And that’s what makes the difference.” (58:09, Dr. Holland)
  • “Many sign up, few show up.” (56:44, Hank Smith & John Bytheway)

Notable Quotes & Timed Moments

• “Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods.” (08:23, Dr. Holland referencing Tom Paine)
• “The Lord reminds us of the fallacy of assuming that suffering suggests God’s displeasure or His closeness to our need.” (27:29–27:54, Dr. Holland)
• “You can have sacred, revelatory, profoundly instructive experience with the Lord—even in the most miserable experiences of your life.” (17:34, Hank Smith quoting Elder Jeffrey R. Holland)
• "He reminds Joseph that he still has friends…the Lord speaks in specific ways to our specific hunger." (19:53, Dr. Holland)
• “Let thy bowels also be full of charity… then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God.” (44:27, Dr. Holland reflecting on D&C 121:45)
• "Reproving with sharpness means reproving with clarity… not with sarcasm or with clenched teeth and a raised voice." (53:45, John Bytheway quoting Elder H. Burke Peterson)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Historical intro/Parallels to Rev. War & Job: 07:46–13:50
• Soaring scriptural language from suffering: 10:30–13:50
• Personal application—Liberty Jail for all: 16:22–18:32
• The Five P’s: 01:58–04:08
• Perspective in suffering: 22:16–27:54
• Revelation as a life-giving river: 29:31–33:50
• Intimate and cosmic God: 34:14–39:05
• Unrighteous dominion & leadership: 39:05–47:28
• Charity for “the household of faith”: 45:48–48:13
• Parenting & reproof: 51:38–55:28
• Called vs. Chosen: 56:25–58:44

Memorable Moments

• Dr. Holland candidly shares vulnerability from his time as bishop during the 2008 crisis, receiving the personal revelation that confidence flows from charity (44:27).
• A playful but revealing exchange about parenting, authority, and “new rules,” illustrating the temptation toward unrighteous dominion (54:20–55:28).
• Deep dives into scriptural footnotes, illustrating the doctrinal density of these verses (51:15–51:38).
• The episode concludes with a teaser for Part 2, setting up further exploration of grappling with historical truth and divine purpose (58:44).

Conclusion

This episode of followHIM is a masterful blend of theology, history, and heartfelt application. Dr. David Holland and the hosts explore the depths of Section 121’s wisdom—the reality of adversity, the power of continued revelation, and the crucial, Christlike qualities of leadership and love. Rich with personal stories, scriptural insights, and memorable quotes, the discussion offers both empathy and practical wisdom for anyone navigating their own “Liberty Jail.”

Listeners are left with a sense that even in life’s darkest, most seemingly unjust moments, God’s friendship, guidance, and revelation persist—and that our growth depends on perspective, patience, and persistent, loving action.