Doctrine & Covenants 121-123 Part 2 • Dr. David Holland • Oct 20 - Oct 26 • Come Follow Me - followHIM

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[00:01]
A
Welcome Back to part two with Dr. David Holland. Doctrine and Covenants 121 to 123. We don't get very far in the Book of Mormon before we're confronted with this idea that Nephi was favored. That's in first Nephi one one. We go, wait a minute. Does God have favorites? I feel like as you keep reading, you find out that you choose that status by he loveth those who will have him to be their God. Or he favors those. Hank, you've heard me make this joke. There's the Nephites, there's the Lamanites, and there's the favorites. The way we respond to God's call, perhaps, is how we become chosen.
[00:47]
B
Maybe.
[00:48]
C
Yeah, well, that's how Elder Bednar took it on. This is the tender mercies of the Lord. April 2005. He references these verses. He says, to be or to become chosen is not an exclusive status conferred upon us. Rather, you and I ultimately determine if we are chosen. He says, please now note the use of the word chosen in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 121 34. Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. Why are they not chosen? Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world and aspire to these honors of men, he says. I believe this implication of these verses is quite straightforward. God does not have a list of favorites to which we hope our names will someday be added. He does not limit the chosen to a restricted few. Rather, it is our hearts and our aspirations and our obedience which definitively determine whether we are counted as one of God's chosen. He goes on through this talk to talk about Enoch in Moses, chapter seven when I've read that same verse. Many are called, but few are chosen. It reminds me of what I think is the most disappointing word in Jacob 5, where there's one last time they're going to serve in the vineyard. They've brought forth these servants. It almost sounds like these servants were held back. That's verse 61. Call the servants and we'll go labor diligently. And it says in verse 70, they call the servants, and they were. And you're kind of hoping for a big entry, a big moment of they were amazing. They were the hosts of heaven. It just says, and they were. Do you remember what it says, John? They were few. They were few. But it works. I've wondered why only a few show up in the allegory. Well, then I think section 121 helps us with that. Two reasons. Their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world and aspire to the honors of men. I know neither of you struggle with that. So I would like to know how you have overcome that.
[02:59]
B
Don't quote me on this scientifically because it's just a vague memory, but I recall a description of addiction in clinical laboratory sense. What will the test subject give up in order to get the thing to which they're addicted? So if you're testing rats level of addiction. What will they give up in order to get that thing to which they're addicted? And I think the study, actually that I was reading was about Oreos, the addictive power of Oreos and what rats will give up once they get a taste of Oreos in order to get it. That, for me, is maybe a kind of measure of where our hearts are. Is. I don't suppose there's anything wrong with wealth, but what are you giving up to hold onto it, to get it? I don't suppose there's anything wrong with gaining the good opinion of others. What are you giving up in order to get it or hold on to it? When we talk about how do we live in a material world. How do we recognize that to be carnally minded is death, even though we're all incarnate. I think the question is, what are we sacrificing in order to achieve these things? And that's sometimes a pretty stark illustration of where our heart might be.
[04:22]
C
Maybe both of you remember this, that a man was going to take his kids to the circus and gets a call in to go to work. He says no, hangs it up. And his wife says, oh, shouldn't you go into work? The circus will come again. And he says, childhood won't. Like what are you willing to give up? That's great, both of you. Remember Samuel, the Lamanite. Your riches are cursed because you have set your hearts upon them. You have not hearkened unto the words of him who gave them to you. Do not remember the Lord your God in the things which he has blessed you. But you always remember your riches.
[05:00]
A
Remember your stuff.
[05:03]
C
This last half of this section could be a lifetime of study. Let me go through this.
[05:10]
B
Let me.
[05:11]
C
Not to get down on yourself, but to note areas where you think, and I like the final result. David, you talked about confidence. Then verse 46. The Lord says, the Holy Ghost will be your constant companion, a scepter of righteousness and thy dominion, an everlasting dominion without compulsory means, meaning you won't have to force it. It will flow unto thee forever and ever. I think that ties Back to verse 39, the use of unrighteous dominion. Anything that you want to come to, you naturally won't. You'll have to force it. It will be compulsatory.
[05:51]
B
Yeah. It sort of gets back to that point that we made in verse 26 and verse 33, about the flow of knowledge, the flow of revelation as the gift of life. Here we see the actual verb flow. We've had it compared to a river, that this river is going to flow forever. That. That's the gift of applying these principles. There is no Dead Sea. There is no termination to this.
[06:21]
C
But it goes on and on without compulsory means. When I go to the Lord, it's not under compulsion. It's I want to. I want to go to Him.
[06:38]
A
That's the easiness and the willingness that Elder Bednar talked about that I want to have. Easiness and willingness to accept, apply the gospel, you know.
[06:49]
C
Yeah. This is Edward Partridge, first bishop of the church, who just gave and gave and gave. He says, I have torn my affections from this world's goods. I am willing to spend and be spent in the cause of my Master. He's overcome the heart set on the things of this world and aspire to the honors of men. David, we've had you here for a little while and we've spent a lot of time in this section, but there are two others. What should we do next?
[07:19]
B
Well, let's just move sequentially here. As we were saying before about the infinite scale of God's care and concern. We saw 121 sort of accordion. Sometimes it's very intimate and personal. Sometimes it's big and global. Sometimes it's the particular, sometimes it's the universal. That God can function at all those scales. I recall again, don't fact check me on this because I don't know the source, but I remember a course at BYU as an undergrad on the Enlightenment, and we were talking about Deism, this idea that God is creator of the universe but is otherwise unconcerned about it, or sets these laws in motion and then lets the clock run for itself. One of the philosophs, one of the Enlightenment thinkers that was being quoted in the course was quoted as looking at the majesty of a sunrise and saying, lord, I believe, and muttering under his breath. But as for madame and her babe, I have my doubts. Meaning I can believe the big universe, the creation, but the story of a baby born in a manger was harder for him to believe. For me, the grandeur of the gospel Is that God functions at all those scales. Yes, I've had that moment when you look at a sunrise or the enormity of the ocean and you're overwhelmed by the power and possibility of God. And then when you look in the face of your child and you're equally overwhelmed by the power and goodness of God. That God is both in the details and in the overarching plan. We've seen that sort of accordion take place in 121 to remind us that God is all of these things. Then we transition into very personal things in 122 where he's speaking to Joseph very personally about his name will be had in both derision and in praise. The noble and the virtuous will seek him, but he's also going to be cast into trouble. That these are the promises that come with discipleship. I was reading in Acts actually a little earlier today, just in my personal study and reminded of those early apostles who were just following the Lord. They were doing their best, yet were called before councils and judgment that this is often the lot of those who follow the Lord. And then it gets very, very personal. It's rendered in the hypothetical, but we know that it's literal. About being torn from the society of his mother and his brethren and his sisters. And this heart wrenching if thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments and say, my father, my father, if these things happen. It's not an if, it's not a conditional. In Joseph's case, these things do happen. These things did happen. Then this extraordinary promise after the greatest threat of all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open their mouth wide after thee. Know thou, my Son, that all these things. It's interesting another use of the comprehensive all. All these things shall give the experience and shall be for thy good. The Son of man hath descended below them all. So once again the comprehensiveness. There is no pain, there is no difficulty, there is no despair that's beyond the reach of these promises. This is about all, because Christ is about all. Therefore fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever. It's interesting that this particular section ends on the same note that 121 ends on, which is about God's power and its combination with our empowerment. Thy priesthood shall remain with thee. Their bounds are set, they cannot pass. God is in control. And within that control he's given us the opportunity to retain some agency in all of this and that that cannot be taken away according to the promise compared to 121. It's so brief, nine verses. And yet it captures in many ways all the same principles that we've been talking about in the longer section. And even ends on the same note. God repeats himself intentionally at a mission president used to always say that if you hear God repeating himself, it's not an accident. Pay attention. These two sections seem to echo one another in a particularly beautiful way.
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A
I just love that the how long questions are turned into small moments. And I think our how longs in life, when we approach God, he can turn them into small moments. It's like I had a sister that I minister to who said that the Lord told her once, I'm going to turn all of your question marks into exclamation points one day, take our how longs and make them small moments. I think that's kind of poetic how.
[12:29]
C
The Lord does that here and then that perspective comes. The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than He? He and the Lord have discussed this back in section 19 when he said, you taste it to the least degree.
[12:46]
A
He's talking to Martin Harris. Yeah. When I withdrew my spirit.
[12:50]
C
This is section 19, verse 20. He says, I want you to repent unless you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken of, which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree, you have tasted. At the time I withdrew my spirit, almost bringing back to memory section 19. The son of man hath descended below them all, far more than you can even comprehend. I don't think it's a trump card, but it's a principle of leadership, I believe. I'm not asking you to do anything I have not done myself.
[13:25]
A
I know what you're going through. There's something nice about somebody else saying, yeah, I've been there, David. You brought up Caesarea Philippi, which is just gorgeous. This idea of descending below all things has its physical component, too, in being baptized in the Jordan. Isn't that. If I understand correctly, the lowest point on earth is the Dead Sea. How poetic and elegant is that? That he was baptized in, descending literally in a topographical way below all things.
[14:01]
C
Yeah, right above section 122. I have written Ensign article January of 03. This is Elder Holland. However dim our days may seem, they have been a lot darker for the Savior of the world.
[14:19]
B
Speaking of darkness, in section 123, Joseph says, We need to take note of it. This is the lawyerly or historian coming out in him that we need to make a record of these things. Now, partly he's making a record, obviously as a case against persecution. He talks about making sure that the persecutions that they faced are known to the powers that be. It's also a reminder that hard and difficult things are not something that we need to shy away from or turn away from. I think we treat our gospel experience as if it's supposed to be a summer's picnic. It's all the sunshine and roses. I'm reminded of the fact that the Savior himself asked if the cup could pass from him. Nobody was skipping along to Gethsemane. The difficulties and the dark things deserve to be remembered and recorded. In part, he's making a contemporary argument for the legal value of that record, but for our own learning. If the saints hadn't been willing to record their experiences, the difficult ones as well as the light ones, our understanding not only of the Restoration, but our understanding of discipleship would be terribly one sided and not particularly reflective of reality. In verse 16, when he finally gets this point of saying, holding onto these details, holding onto these records may seem like a small thing. That small thing can guide a large ship when it's kept workways with the wind and the waves. That's not just about a legal record. At that point he's moved beyond the recording of charges against their enemies. He's talking, seems to me, about a bigger principle about being willing to work into the wind and the waves. That that's how you stay afloat is by paying attention to the difficult things and the easy things. Relatively small act of keeping a record can help you manage that storm. It's one of the sins for which I feel culpable. I've never been a great journal keeper. Partly, I think that's the historian in me is I know what people do with journals once you're gone. So I've always been a little bit hesitant to keep one. But holding onto that record, recognizing your story, recognizing the good and the bad and the beautiful and the ugly and the way God's gotten you through it all, which is really what these sections are doing, that this is that little helm that can get our ship through the storms that come. I think it's interesting again that he's talking about a very particular call for the, I think particular legal and political purpose here. Once again, we end up at a very transcendent principle here that I think applies to all of us.
[17:21]
A
Yeah, this is beautiful at the end. I love this line in verse 12 that there are some yet on earth who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it. I'm always reminded of Lehi's dream when he tastes the fruit and says, where is your mother? Oh, my goodness, this is so good. Where is your family? I called to them. They stood as if they knew not whether they should go boom, right there. They just didn't know where to go. So I called to them with a loud voice and said, come unto me. How many are looking? I just don't know where to find it. To me, it's a very charitable verse and a motivating verse to say there's some who are looking, they just don't know where to find it.
[18:07]
B
Yeah. In a section that's otherwise overwhelmingly about some pretty dark and difficult things. Murder, tyranny, oppression, grief, sorrow, bow down, iron yoke, handcuffs, chains, shackles, fetters of hell. This is not the sunshiniest section that you could find. But then there's this beautiful interjection in 12 that says, there's goodness out there. There's a lot of goodness. There's a lot of good hearts out there, too. The Lord's always trying to help us see both the light and the dark. Joseph talked about that repeatedly. If you lead a man to salvation, you got to be able to stare into the darkest abyss as well as contemplate the highest heaven. A lot of this first part is about the abyss, and then 12 is about. And there's a lot of good people out there, and if they hear the truth, they're going to resonate with it.
[19:03]
C
As I read these later sections, it seems that Joseph1 is studying the Constitution. He is interested in the rule of law. At times he seems shocked that this is the United States of America, where the freedom of religion.
[19:22]
A
We've got a Bill of Rights.
[19:23]
C
Yeah.
[19:24]
A
What's going on?
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C
Even runs for president because there's not a political candidate who's willing to at least stand up for the Latter Day Saints. If I lean into your history here a little bit, The Constitution's only 55, 56 years old. Is this a common occurrence in 1800s America? The religious persecution?
[19:46]
B
Not uncommon. The persecution, for instance, against Catholics could be particularly intense. I work not far from the site of the famous burning of the Ursuline Convent just outside of Boston. Depended on the nature of the religion. If you were an Evangelical Protestant Christian, by the time you got to the 1830s and 40s, you were pretty safe. That wasn't always true. Baptists were mercilessly persecuted back in the 1700s. Methodists faced their share of persecution shortly thereafter. But by the Time you got to mid century, if you belong to the evangelical family, you were in pretty good shape. But if you were outside that there could be a price to be paid, particularly if people thought that you were a little bit mysterious. And that's sometimes the claim that was thrown both at Latter Day Saints and at Catholics that tended to raise a great deal of suspicion and anger. The Latter Day Saints are not alone in facing persecution. But part of the challenge here is that the Latter Day Saints were relatively small. Catholics grow quickly during the 19th century with immigration from Europe and had the numbers to begin to control certain neighborhoods and certain precincts began to have some say over New York politics pretty quickly, for instance. And until they get to Latter Day Saints don't have the critical mass to defend themselves in the same way. It's not entirely unusual, but the intensity and the circumstance of it I think make for particularly difficult story here.
[21:35]
C
These Latter Day Saints, they have to leave the country they feel in order to freely practice their religion. The Founding Fathers had a different idea.
[21:45]
B
We could talk for a long time about the First Amendment. But part of the challenge here, and this is the famous Martin Van Buren line, your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you. There was a pretty strong constitutional theory about federal jurisdiction, that religion was actually the purview of local authorities and that the federal government doesn't have any right to intervene on matters of religion. That doesn't really change quite literally until the incorporation of the First Amendment in the 1940s series of cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses and pledging allegiance set off a new doctrine there where the federal government gets more and more involved in religious freedom issues. Now there's an exception to that. To your question about Latter Day Saints is facing particular persecution. One of the exceptions to that is if it's a territory, the territories were treated differently than the states. Polygamy became an object of federal intervention because Utah was a territory. And that's how you get some Supreme Court rulings regarding polygamy, because of the territorial status versus statehood. The question of how does this happen in a constitutional republic? Partly that has to do with the way the Constitution's being read at a particular time. And Joseph had a very 20th century reading of the Constitution. He thought that the First Amendment should be federally enforced and protected, that that should involve federal intervention when the states like Missouri were, he felt, persecuting the saints on the basis of their religious faith. But that's where somebody like Van Buren is coming from, saying, not a federal issue. Wish I could do Something for you, but sorry you got to face the locals on your own as you get.
[23:36]
C
Into these later sections. He's getting himself a little law degree.
[23:41]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
[23:41]
C
He really wants to understand this and. And go to bat for the Saints.
[23:46]
A
I appreciate that perspective. There was always somebody to pass it off to. Well, that's a states rights issue. You're going to have to figure that out with Missouri. I can see how a president would do that. We talk as much about states rights versus federal rights now as much as we used to, I think. Boy, at the time of the first Constitution, it was a bunch of different states united, but they were their own thing and they wanted to be that way.
[24:14]
C
Yeah, Missouri was really far west. Is that complicated as well.
[24:21]
A
Proximity, vigilante justice out there.
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C
Right.
[24:24]
B
Yeah. There probably was a sense of distance that made the federal government perhaps even a little bit more hesitant to wade in. By the same token, the westward expansion and the territories also had a degree of federal power in them. So it's a complicated history. But I think to John's point, there was both constitutional theory and political interest in not getting involved.
[24:51]
C
This is Joseph Smith in 1843. So a year before he dies, he says, the Saints can testify whether I am willing to lay down my life for my brethren if it had been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a Mormon. He says, I am bold to declare before heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or good man of any other denomination for the same principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter Day Saints, would trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholics or of any other denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves. It's got to be breaking his heart.
[25:32]
B
Of course, after all of that, verse 17 Is this beautiful concluding principle that after we've done all of this, after we've been through all of this, after we've done what we can, then we can stand still with the utmost assurance and see the salvation of God. Even when we detail all of the difficulty of the world in which we live and all of the opposition that we face, he's ending on this note of optimism. He's ending on this note of reassurance, this idea of standing still. Sometimes we get a little frenetic in our thought that we've got to fix everything and there's only so much we can do. At some point, you have to stand still and see the salvation of God.
[26:21]
C
Yeah, I've always been interested in the word cheerfully There. I'd be okay if it said, dearly beloved brethren, let us do all things that lie in our power.
[26:34]
A
No, but you have to do it cheerfully.
[26:35]
C
But now, cheerfully, same type of verse. This is Mosiah 24. The people of Alma the Elder are praying for help in their bondage to the priests of Noah and Lamanites. The Lord tells them, I will ease the burdens upon your shoulders. Then this statement from Mosiah 24:15, the Lord did strengthen them that they could bear up their burdens with ease. And they did submit and cheerfully and with patience to all the will of the Lord. I'm okay with that. They did submit with patience. But it's that they did submit cheerfully and with patience. I'd be interested in how you both do that. Cheerfully do things. I don't know if he's talking that you have to be permanent smile on your face and a big happy button. But there does need to be a measure of enthusiasm. John, how do you do it? John, you're a cheerful person. Does it come natural?
[27:33]
A
No. I appreciate the adjectives, the impossible task you've laid out before me these past four years with the adjectives that you've given me. I marvel too at that. I marvel and I love it. I go, wow, look at that level to aspire to. But there is a peace that comes when you can say, lord, I've done everything I can think of. There's a peace that comes when you can hit your knees and say that I've done my best. I've done everything I can think of. And then this awesome statement. Then stand still and watch. I still want to talk about verse 16. You know, brethren, I just love this. This is out of the book of James. You see the Footnote There, James 3, 4. He says the same thing. A very large ship is benefited very much by a very small helm. That is, to me, the rudder in the time of a storm. Oh, my goodness, are we living in the time of a storm? But what if we have a rudder? A helm that implies that there's a course, a destination, there's President Nelson might say, a covenant path. All the winds and the waves out there. With a helm, we can be kept workways. We can make progress even in a storm, because we have a helm. I'll never forget President Monson's talk about the German battleship, the Bismarck. Do you remember that? He talked about how big it was and how the walls were so many feet thick of steel. It was just this incredible battleship, and the Allies forces pounded it and Couldn't do anything until somebody scored a hit on the rudder, the very small part. Then President Monson said all it could do was steer a circle. The Allies pounded it until they sunk it because it couldn't be kept workways with the wind and the waves anymore. What's our rudder? I have a canoe in my garage. That's what it does most of the time. Hangs in my garage. Does a canoe have a rudder?
[29:45]
C
No.
[29:46]
A
No. I learned back in the Boy Scouts of America days. I learned the J stroke, where you paddle and then you twist your oar and hold it and it becomes the rudder for a second. I learned to do figure eights and anything I wanted to as long as I had my oar. But one of the cool things that I learned that I love to equate with this verse is what do you think is the safest thing to do in a canoe? When you come across a big wave and it seems counterintuitive, head right into it, right? Don't turn sideways, go right at it. You go, oh, no. Oh no. Oh no. It's going to tip you over. You go right at it. You go up and over. That is being kept. Work ways with the wind and the waves. And I love to tell young adults, go right at it. Go right at life and do your best. Do all things that lie in your power, because you have a course and a helm and a destination. And then you can say, I'm doing the best I can. Lord, help me out. I love these verses. It's great life advice.
[30:50]
B
It's illustrated by all of the material that we've spoken about in the lead up to 16, which is, again, these sections, they head right into the wave. They're not sugarcoating it. They're not suggesting that we should overlook the difficulties that come in a disciple's life. We should stare them right in the face.
[31:14]
A
There are going to be storms. Here's my own footnote to Mormon 5. 18. But now, behold, they are led about by Satan, even as chaff is driven before the wind, or as a vessel is tossed about upon the waves without sail or anchor, or without anything wherewith to steer her. If we don't have a sail, we don't have an anchor, we don't have a rudder. We are driftwood. We're just going with the flow. The opposite of going with the flow. Yeah, you're in a storm, but you don't have to go with the flow. You have a helm, a destination to keep your work waste with the wind and the waves. I Don't know. I got all aquatic for a second there, but I kind of. I like that metaphor.
[31:58]
B
I love it.
[32:00]
C
You pretty cheerful, David?
[32:03]
B
I think as a principal I am. I'm optimistic by nature. My wife sometimes calls me pathologically optimistic. That's a good thing to be, even given that tendency. I've known some long dark nights of the soul, as I think everybody has, where the optimism is hard to come by based on situations you're facing or circumstances you confront. I think we all need those reminders, even those of us that might be naturally inclined to certain cheerfulness. These sections are reminders to us that we all need to be called back to that. So I think it's interesting that 123 ends on that note after everything else that's preceded it. Remember to be cheerful, because even those of us that tend to view the world optimistically, those waves can get pretty big sometimes.
[33:05]
A
I like the statement of Joseph Smith speaks of his own native cheery temperament. That's something I aspire to. Elder Kelly Comstock, one of my mission companions that taught me a ton about just being cheerful. I'm so grateful to mission companions that I just watched him and thought, I'm going to be like him.
[33:29]
C
Maybe it ties back to that confidence we talked about in section 121. I find that I'm more cheerful when I feel like I'm in control of a situation. And that confidence that comes from charity that we talked about earlier. I think that cheerfulness can come naturally when we feel confident. And maybe that's what the Lord is saying. You can be confident in me and in this work. You feel settled. It's okay to be cheerful. Verse 13, Joseph Smith. We should wear out our lives. I have noticed that among our church leaders. John, you can go a little bit further back than me. Not too far. I watched President Hinckley wear out right in front of us. I remember President Monson. Do you remember President Monson stood up at the pulpit. It was one of his first talks as a president of the church. And he's wiggling his ears. Do you remember his last talk? He can't even hold himself up. President Nelson going on 101. We watch. And their wives. They literally wear out in front of us. It's a privilege. It's a hard thing to witness, but it's a privilege to watch that happen. It's so inspiring. Didn't President Kimball hold up his shoes and say, I want to be like this old pair of shoes, worn out in service.
[35:01]
A
Like you? Said David, the First several verses of this 123. Look at some of these terms. Diabolical, rascality, nefarious, hellish, hiding without excuse. And then we get to the end. And it is so inspiring. I guess the Lord knows how to end a talk. Let's do all the things that lie in our power, then stand still.
[35:25]
C
I've often thought that with my children I need to be pretty cheerful because I'm a billboard for the gospel. I don't want my kids to go. Well, why would I want to do. David, I have a question before we let you go. For me personally, and I know John and I have talked about this at length, we love to hear every testimony. But one of the reasons we do our show is that we like to bring on people who have been taught in the secular world. You have a doctorate degree in history. You are teaching at Harvard, a well known school. Yeah, I've heard of Harvard, yeah. Where I'm sure not everyone is the believer, especially a Latter Day Saint believer. Here you've studied a lot, you've experienced a lot. You're out in territory where there's not a lot of people that believe what you do. In some people's minds, that should be a recipe for losing your faith. Yet here you are a believer.
[36:30]
B
Well, I do have great appreciation for the secular institutions that have given me opportunity and through which I have encountered wonderful forms of knowledge and understanding, and I've dedicated my professional life to that. But quite honestly, the church will counterbalance everything if we let it. I've had the opportunity along that journey to be a bishop and to be a stake president, actually, of two different stakes, and to have pretty demanding callings, which at times can feel overwhelming. Sometimes you wonder why the Lord asks of us what he asks. But it's been the counterbalance in a way. My professional life has never been the entirety of my life because I've tried to take seriously opportunities to serve. It's allowed my secular training and my ministerial life to enrich each other. I'm sure there's a lot of my educational background that filters into what I'm doing. I'm currently an early morning seminary teacher. Oh, really?
[37:52]
A
No kidding.
[37:55]
B
I'm sure it comes up there as well. But my point is that the church will create a counterbalance to anything else that is trying to draw all of us in. And I've found that enormously helpful, notwithstanding its challenges. I know that there are times when I've had absolutely nothing to fall back on but the Lord and His mercy and his message. And I know that I've found him there. I'll just be candid with you. It felt to me like a providence, like a work of the Lord, that you asked me to do these sections, because I won't get into details, but I'm battling some pretty difficult challenges currently and have wondered sometimes about Job and Joseph. Not that I would compare my little piddling concerns with theirs, but this is a good example of, you know, I thought, well, summer's busy and it's going to be right before the start of the school year. Should I hop on this podcast? Just a feeling that when you have an opportunity to discuss the Gospel and share your faith, you ought to take it. That's sort of my default position. Obviously, you can't do everything all the time, but back in the relative sunshine of May, you accept an opportunity and then you find yourself in the middle of a storm. Lo and behold, this thing you committed to do happens to bring into your life the very sections that you should be studying and you should be focusing on in this particular moment. And that's just been my experience over the course of my life. If you make yourself available, God will give you opportunities to find Him. I am grateful to him. I love him. And I'm grateful for the chance to discuss his goodness and his power in good times and in bad. And I'm grateful for my testimony.
[39:58]
C
That's wonderful, David. I actually have one more question before I let you go. I know John's probably giving me the signal, let him go. Let him go.
[40:06]
B
Let my people go.
[40:07]
C
Yeah, let my people go. Such a blessing to have you here. There is an idea, I think, among some, that you don't want to learn too much of this history. You don't want to learn too much about Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or any of these people. You'll lose your faith. Yet as a historian, I'm sure you've done a little work here. And the historians we've had on John, we've yet to have one of them say, yeah, don't know too much history. You definitely want to shy back. What would you say to that myth, David? That someone's scared of history, of the Church?
[40:46]
B
A few things. I think one of them is that my own view is to whitewash or to shy away from history is to rewrite God's work in the world. The fact that people are blemished and histories are challenging, as we have just been discussing in these sections, God does not want us to shy away from the dark and difficult things. Partly for me, it's that my testimony is rooted in principles rather than personalities. You don't see Jeremiah insisting that you believe in Isaiah, that he's preaching the message, he's preaching the principles. It reminds me a little bit of the story in John 9, when Jesus is healing the blind man. The critics come up and say, don't you know that man's a sinner? And the blind man says, I don't know. What I know is that I was blind and now I see, which is to say I have lived the experience. So when people ask me, was this church leader or that church leader, were they worthy of belief or not? For me, it's always the Christ's principle. You got to live it and you'll know it. I don't get too caught up on the relationship of my eternal commitments to the temporal facts of history. My eternal commitments are based on my own experience of living the principles and seeing the promises fulfilled. I can do nothing else but believe. On the basis of my own experience. I can do nothing else but believe. History enriches our capacity to understand how God works, the imperfect ways that human beings try to apply perfect things. Joseph says in 121, what is human nature? You know, it is the tendency of almost all men, right? We learn things by studying that history. But I don't base eternal decisions on temporary events. I base them on my testing of eternal principle. That's why I believe.
[42:59]
C
I'm so glad I asked you that.
[43:01]
A
David, you might not know this, but that's one of Hank's very favorite verses. The blind man in John 9. I don't know, but this much I know. I was blind and now I see. And as Hank has taught me, can be such a great answer to so many questions people have. Oh, I don't know about this or that fact of church history, but this much I know. This has changed my life and I have the fruits of it. Thank you for bringing that. That's why Hank's smiling so big right now.
[43:32]
B
I just.
[43:35]
C
That little story to me, is so impactful because these are very powerful people telling him, you, you need to stop.
[43:43]
A
They're going to kick you out of the synagogue.
[43:45]
B
Right?
[43:47]
C
And I love that he's honest. I don't know about that. He might be. I've never even seen him. I was blind this morning, and now I'm not. That's pretty significant. David, this has been a fantastic day with you.
[44:01]
B
Thank you. Enjoyed the conversation.
[44:03]
C
So much fun to have such a great teacher with such great content. You feel uplifted and edified. And I know the Holy Ghost has been here because I don't want. I don't want to leave. I don't want it to end. We have listeners all over the world and we love them and I'm sure that they are grateful. And so we want to voice that for you. In fact, if you'd like to come onto YouTube and leave a comment, we'll make sure that Dr. Holland gets those. If you'd like to send a message or you can come over to our website, followhim.co. it's a wonderful day, wonderful time to be with you. With that, we want to thank Dr. David Holland for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorenson, and every episode we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We have more Doctrine and Covenants coming up on Follow Him. Thank you for joining us on today's episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today's show notes and transcript are on our website, followhim. Co. That's followhim. Co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, Sydney Smith and Annabelle Sorenson. Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always valid in the life.
[45:46]
A
And teachings of Jesus Christ.
[45:49]
C
Turn to him.
[45:51]
A
Follow him.

Summary8 min read

followHIM Podcast Doctrine & Covenants 121–123, Part 2 • Dr. David Holland Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway Date: October 15, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode continues an in-depth, scriptural and historical discussion of Doctrine & Covenants sections 121–123 with Dr. David Holland. The hosts and guest explore themes of chosenness, adversity, God’s encompassing care, leadership, religious liberty, and the value of historical perspective, connecting these eternal principles to personal discipleship and current issues. The conversation moves seamlessly between doctrinal exposition, personal reflection, and humor, resulting in a study-rich, uplifting discussion.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. “Many Are Called, But Few Are Chosen”: Agency and the Heart (00:00–04:59)

The episode opens with a discussion about chosenness in scripture, referencing Elder Bednar’s talk "Tender Mercies of the Lord" (April 2005) and the phrase from D&C 121:34: “Many are called, but few are chosen.”
Dr. Holland and the hosts emphasize that chosenness is determined by the desires and aspirations of our hearts, not divine favoritism.
John Bytheway humorously recalls the division in scripture: "There's the Nephites, the Lamanites, and the favorites" (00:13).

Notable Quote:

“God does not have a list of favorites ... Rather, it is our hearts and our aspirations and our obedience which definitively determine whether we are counted as one of God's chosen.”
— Elder Bednar, cited by John Bytheway (00:56)

The conversation delves into the dangers of setting our hearts on material wealth or the praise of others.
Dr. Holland uses an analogy from addiction studies: what we’re willing to give up for our desires reveals our true priorities (02:59).

Quote:
“What are you giving up to hold onto [wealth], to get it?... That, for me, is maybe a kind of measure of where our hearts are.”
— Dr. David Holland (03:10)

2. The Flow of Spiritual Power and Unrighteous Dominion (05:03–07:19)

The principle of “dominion without compulsory means” (D&C 121:46) is explained, comparing the flow of spiritual guidance to an ever-flowing river, open to those who serve with pure intent.
The trio lauds the example of Edward Partridge and the ability to “tear [our] affections from this world’s goods.”

Quote:
“The Holy Ghost will be your constant companion ... [and your] dominion ... will flow unto thee forever and ever.”
— John Bytheway, paraphrasing D&C 121:46 (05:10)

3. God's Concern: Both Cosmic and Intimate (07:19–12:00)

Dr. Holland reflects on the paradox of God’s care: His power spans creation but also embraces individual suffering. He illustrates with an Enlightenment philosopher’s doubt and contrasts this with scriptural assurance that “God functions at all those scales.”

Quote:
“The grandeur of the gospel is that God functions at all those scales ... both in the details and in the overarching plan.”
— Dr. David Holland (08:33)
They discuss how D&C 122 delivers very personal promises to Joseph Smith about suffering and ultimate assurance: “All these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. The Son of man hath descended below them all...” (11:13).

4. Suffering, Leadership, and the Savior's Empathy (12:00–14:18)

Suffering is contextualized as part of discipleship and as a principle of Christlike leadership. The hosts connect D&C 122’s themes to the Savior’s own suffering and empathy: “I’m not asking you to do anything I have not done myself” (13:09).

Memorable Moment:
“He was baptized in ... the Jordan ... the lowest point on earth ... how poetic ... that he was baptized [there], descending literally ... below all things.”
— Hank Smith (13:24)

5. The Importance of Remembering Difficult Experiences (14:18–19:03)

Turning to D&C 123, Dr. Holland highlights Joseph’s insistence on making a record—both for legal/historical clarity and for spiritual formation.
The hosts discuss the necessity of acknowledging and documenting hard things (“the dark and difficult things are not something that we need to shy away from or turn away from,” 14:31).
Verse 12’s expression of hope is celebrated: “There are some yet on earth who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it.”

Quote:
“The Lord’s always trying to help us see both the light and the dark ... If you lead a man to salvation, you got to be able to stare into the darkest abyss as well as contemplate the highest heaven.”
— Dr. David Holland (18:35)

6. Religious Liberty and Early American Context (19:03–24:51)

Dr. Holland gives historical context to the Saints’ persecution and Joseph Smith’s constitutional efforts.
He discusses the distinction between state and federal jurisdiction (“your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you”—Martin Van Buren).
The evolution of First Amendment protection is tracked, showing how and when federal authority began protecting religious freedoms more robustly.

7. Standing Still and Acting Cheerfully in Adversity (24:51–33:04)

The importance of “stand[ing] still ... and see[ing] the salvation of God” (D&C 123:17) is explored.
Cheerfulness as a spiritual discipline is discussed, contrasted with simply enduring adversity. The hosts reflect on Mosiah 24:15: “They did submit cheerfully and with patience to all the will of the Lord.”
John Bytheway shares a memorable aquatic metaphor about steering into life’s storms with faith.

Memorable Moment:
“What do you think is the safest thing to do in a canoe when you come across a big wave? ... Head right into it. ... That is being kept workways with the wind and the waves. Go right at life and do your best.”
— John Bytheway (29:46)

8. The Rudder/Helm Metaphor & Spiritual Navigation (26:33–31:58)

The analogy of a helm (rudder) on a ship in a storm (D&C 123:16) is applied to maintaining direction and resilience through discipline and gospel focus.
President Monson’s story of the battleship Bismarck is referenced to further illustrate how small things (a helm, a record, faith) guide us through difficulties.

9. Endurance of Prophets and Church Leaders (33:28–35:00)

The visible “wearing out” of Church leaders in service is honored as a moving testament to lifelong faithfulness.
President Kimball’s “worn out shoes” metaphor is remembered in this context (34:20).

10. Navigating Faith and Secular Knowledge (35:25–42:59)

Dr. Holland is asked about maintaining faith as a scholar at Harvard and a church leader.
He shares how academic inquiry and church service provide counterbalancing influences in his life, especially during personal struggles.
He testifies of personal revelation and providence in moments of weakness and trial.

Quote:
“If you make yourself available, God will give you opportunities to find Him. ... That's just been my experience.”
— Dr. David Holland (38:50)

11. Addressing Fears of Church History: Faith Rooted in Principles (40:07–42:59)

Responding to the idea that learning church history might threaten faith, Dr. Holland emphasizes faith rooted in tested principles, not personalities.
He references the healing of the blind man in John 9 (“I don’t know ... I was blind and now I see.”) as a model for focusing on lived gospel fruits rather than historical scandal.

Quote:
“My own view is to whitewash or to shy away from history is to rewrite God's work in the world. ... My testimony is rooted in principles rather than personalities.”
— Dr. David Holland (40:46)

Memorable Quotes by Timestamp

Elder Bednar on Chosenness: “God does not have a list of favorites ... Rather, it is our hearts and our aspirations and our obedience which definitively determine whether we are counted as one of God's chosen.” (00:56, cited by John Bytheway)
Addiction Analogy: “What are you giving up to hold onto [wealth] ... That, for me, is maybe a kind of measure of where our hearts are.” (03:10, Dr. Holland)
God’s Infinite Scale: “The grandeur of the gospel is that God functions at all those scales ... both in the details and in the overarching plan.” (08:33, Dr. Holland)
Suffering and Empathy: “I’m not asking you to do anything I have not done myself.” (13:09, Dr. Holland)
History’s Value: “To whitewash or to shy away from history is to rewrite God's work in the world. ... My testimony is rooted in principles rather than personalities.” (40:46, Dr. Holland)
Experience as Testimony: “I was blind and now I see.” (John 9, referenced multiple times, especially 43:01–44:00)
Providence and Availability: “If you make yourself available, God will give you opportunities to find Him.” (38:50, Dr. Holland)

Timestamps for Important Segments

00:00 – 04:59: “Many Are Called, But Few Are Chosen” – Agency and Materialism
07:19 – 12:00: “God’s Care: Universal and Personal” – From cosmic to intimate in D&C 121–122
13:24: “Descended Below All Things” – Baptism in the lowest place on earth
14:18 – 19:03: “Recording Our Trials: The Value of History” – D&C 123 and personal record-keeping
19:03 – 24:51: “Religious Liberty in Early America” – Constitutional context and Joseph Smith’s advocacy
24:51 – 33:04: “Standing Still, Cheerfulness, and Navigating Storms” – Faithful optimism; rudder/helm metaphor
35:25 – 42:59: “Faith and Secular Learning” – Dr. Holland’s experience as a believing historian
40:46 – 44:00: “Addressing Historical Concerns” – Faith in principles, not personalities

Notable Moments

The analogy between addiction and heart-set desires (03:10)
Personal stories of parental sacrifice and priorities (04:22)
The use of “all” in D&C 122: Christ’s atonement is comprehensive (11:13)
The inspiring story of Lehi calling his family to the fruit; spiritual outreach (17:21)
John Bytheway’s aquatic analogy of facing storms in a canoe (29:45)
Testimony about how church service and gospel study counterbalance secular work (38:50)

Tone & Style

The episode is reflective, earnest, scripturally literate, and seasoned with relatable anecdotes and gentle humor. Dr. Holland brings scholarly depth while maintaining a devotional, hopeful perspective. Both hosts use clear scriptural citations, historical insights, and relatable stories to invite listeners into deeper study and application.

Conclusion

This thoughtful episode complements scriptural study with rich doctrinal, historical, and personal perspectives. Through discussions on agency, adversity, faithfulness, constitutional history, and the lived gospel, listeners are equipped with insight and encouragement for personal discipleship. Dr. Holland’s testimony is a particular highlight, emphasizing experiential faith and the value of facing both light and dark with confidence in Christ.

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Transcript75 lines

[00:01]
A
Welcome Back to part two with Dr. David Holland. Doctrine and Covenants 121 to 123. We don't get very far in the Book of Mormon before we're confronted with this idea that Nephi was favored. That's in first Nephi one one. We go, wait a minute. Does God have favorites? I feel like as you keep reading, you find out that you choose that status by he loveth those who will have him to be their God. Or he favors those. Hank, you've heard me make this joke. There's the Nephites, there's the Lamanites, and there's the favorites. The way we respond to God's call, perhaps, is how we become chosen.
[00:47]
B
Maybe.
[00:48]
C
Yeah, well, that's how Elder Bednar took it on. This is the tender mercies of the Lord. April 2005. He references these verses. He says, to be or to become chosen is not an exclusive status conferred upon us. Rather, you and I ultimately determine if we are chosen. He says, please now note the use of the word chosen in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 121 34. Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. Why are they not chosen? Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world and aspire to these honors of men, he says. I believe this implication of these verses is quite straightforward. God does not have a list of favorites to which we hope our names will someday be added. He does not limit the chosen to a restricted few. Rather, it is our hearts and our aspirations and our obedience which definitively determine whether we are counted as one of God's chosen. He goes on through this talk to talk about Enoch in Moses, chapter seven when I've read that same verse. Many are called, but few are chosen. It reminds me of what I think is the most disappointing word in Jacob 5, where there's one last time they're going to serve in the vineyard. They've brought forth these servants. It almost sounds like these servants were held back. That's verse 61. Call the servants and we'll go labor diligently. And it says in verse 70, they call the servants, and they were. And you're kind of hoping for a big entry, a big moment of they were amazing. They were the hosts of heaven. It just says, and they were. Do you remember what it says, John? They were few. They were few. But it works. I've wondered why only a few show up in the allegory. Well, then I think section 121 helps us with that. Two reasons. Their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world and aspire to the honors of men. I know neither of you struggle with that. So I would like to know how you have overcome that.
[02:59]
B
Don't quote me on this scientifically because it's just a vague memory, but I recall a description of addiction in clinical laboratory sense. What will the test subject give up in order to get the thing to which they're addicted? So if you're testing rats level of addiction. What will they give up in order to get that thing to which they're addicted? And I think the study, actually that I was reading was about Oreos, the addictive power of Oreos and what rats will give up once they get a taste of Oreos in order to get it. That, for me, is maybe a kind of measure of where our hearts are. Is. I don't suppose there's anything wrong with wealth, but what are you giving up to hold onto it, to get it? I don't suppose there's anything wrong with gaining the good opinion of others. What are you giving up in order to get it or hold on to it? When we talk about how do we live in a material world. How do we recognize that to be carnally minded is death, even though we're all incarnate. I think the question is, what are we sacrificing in order to achieve these things? And that's sometimes a pretty stark illustration of where our heart might be.
[04:22]
C
Maybe both of you remember this, that a man was going to take his kids to the circus and gets a call in to go to work. He says no, hangs it up. And his wife says, oh, shouldn't you go into work? The circus will come again. And he says, childhood won't. Like what are you willing to give up? That's great, both of you. Remember Samuel, the Lamanite. Your riches are cursed because you have set your hearts upon them. You have not hearkened unto the words of him who gave them to you. Do not remember the Lord your God in the things which he has blessed you. But you always remember your riches.
[05:00]
A
Remember your stuff.
[05:03]
C
This last half of this section could be a lifetime of study. Let me go through this.
[05:10]
B
Let me.
[05:11]
C
Not to get down on yourself, but to note areas where you think, and I like the final result. David, you talked about confidence. Then verse 46. The Lord says, the Holy Ghost will be your constant companion, a scepter of righteousness and thy dominion, an everlasting dominion without compulsory means, meaning you won't have to force it. It will flow unto thee forever and ever. I think that ties Back to verse 39, the use of unrighteous dominion. Anything that you want to come to, you naturally won't. You'll have to force it. It will be compulsatory.
[05:51]
B
Yeah. It sort of gets back to that point that we made in verse 26 and verse 33, about the flow of knowledge, the flow of revelation as the gift of life. Here we see the actual verb flow. We've had it compared to a river, that this river is going to flow forever. That. That's the gift of applying these principles. There is no Dead Sea. There is no termination to this.
[06:21]
C
But it goes on and on without compulsory means. When I go to the Lord, it's not under compulsion. It's I want to. I want to go to Him.
[06:38]
A
That's the easiness and the willingness that Elder Bednar talked about that I want to have. Easiness and willingness to accept, apply the gospel, you know.
[06:49]
C
Yeah. This is Edward Partridge, first bishop of the church, who just gave and gave and gave. He says, I have torn my affections from this world's goods. I am willing to spend and be spent in the cause of my Master. He's overcome the heart set on the things of this world and aspire to the honors of men. David, we've had you here for a little while and we've spent a lot of time in this section, but there are two others. What should we do next?
[07:19]
B
Well, let's just move sequentially here. As we were saying before about the infinite scale of God's care and concern. We saw 121 sort of accordion. Sometimes it's very intimate and personal. Sometimes it's big and global. Sometimes it's the particular, sometimes it's the universal. That God can function at all those scales. I recall again, don't fact check me on this because I don't know the source, but I remember a course at BYU as an undergrad on the Enlightenment, and we were talking about Deism, this idea that God is creator of the universe but is otherwise unconcerned about it, or sets these laws in motion and then lets the clock run for itself. One of the philosophs, one of the Enlightenment thinkers that was being quoted in the course was quoted as looking at the majesty of a sunrise and saying, lord, I believe, and muttering under his breath. But as for madame and her babe, I have my doubts. Meaning I can believe the big universe, the creation, but the story of a baby born in a manger was harder for him to believe. For me, the grandeur of the gospel Is that God functions at all those scales. Yes, I've had that moment when you look at a sunrise or the enormity of the ocean and you're overwhelmed by the power and possibility of God. And then when you look in the face of your child and you're equally overwhelmed by the power and goodness of God. That God is both in the details and in the overarching plan. We've seen that sort of accordion take place in 121 to remind us that God is all of these things. Then we transition into very personal things in 122 where he's speaking to Joseph very personally about his name will be had in both derision and in praise. The noble and the virtuous will seek him, but he's also going to be cast into trouble. That these are the promises that come with discipleship. I was reading in Acts actually a little earlier today, just in my personal study and reminded of those early apostles who were just following the Lord. They were doing their best, yet were called before councils and judgment that this is often the lot of those who follow the Lord. And then it gets very, very personal. It's rendered in the hypothetical, but we know that it's literal. About being torn from the society of his mother and his brethren and his sisters. And this heart wrenching if thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments and say, my father, my father, if these things happen. It's not an if, it's not a conditional. In Joseph's case, these things do happen. These things did happen. Then this extraordinary promise after the greatest threat of all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open their mouth wide after thee. Know thou, my Son, that all these things. It's interesting another use of the comprehensive all. All these things shall give the experience and shall be for thy good. The Son of man hath descended below them all. So once again the comprehensiveness. There is no pain, there is no difficulty, there is no despair that's beyond the reach of these promises. This is about all, because Christ is about all. Therefore fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever. It's interesting that this particular section ends on the same note that 121 ends on, which is about God's power and its combination with our empowerment. Thy priesthood shall remain with thee. Their bounds are set, they cannot pass. God is in control. And within that control he's given us the opportunity to retain some agency in all of this and that that cannot be taken away according to the promise compared to 121. It's so brief, nine verses. And yet it captures in many ways all the same principles that we've been talking about in the longer section. And even ends on the same note. God repeats himself intentionally at a mission president used to always say that if you hear God repeating himself, it's not an accident. Pay attention. These two sections seem to echo one another in a particularly beautiful way.
[12:01]
A
I just love that the how long questions are turned into small moments. And I think our how longs in life, when we approach God, he can turn them into small moments. It's like I had a sister that I minister to who said that the Lord told her once, I'm going to turn all of your question marks into exclamation points one day, take our how longs and make them small moments. I think that's kind of poetic how.
[12:29]
C
The Lord does that here and then that perspective comes. The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than He? He and the Lord have discussed this back in section 19 when he said, you taste it to the least degree.
[12:46]
A
He's talking to Martin Harris. Yeah. When I withdrew my spirit.
[12:50]
C
This is section 19, verse 20. He says, I want you to repent unless you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken of, which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree, you have tasted. At the time I withdrew my spirit, almost bringing back to memory section 19. The son of man hath descended below them all, far more than you can even comprehend. I don't think it's a trump card, but it's a principle of leadership, I believe. I'm not asking you to do anything I have not done myself.
[13:25]
A
I know what you're going through. There's something nice about somebody else saying, yeah, I've been there, David. You brought up Caesarea Philippi, which is just gorgeous. This idea of descending below all things has its physical component, too, in being baptized in the Jordan. Isn't that. If I understand correctly, the lowest point on earth is the Dead Sea. How poetic and elegant is that? That he was baptized in, descending literally in a topographical way below all things.
[14:01]
C
Yeah, right above section 122. I have written Ensign article January of 03. This is Elder Holland. However dim our days may seem, they have been a lot darker for the Savior of the world.
[14:19]
B
Speaking of darkness, in section 123, Joseph says, We need to take note of it. This is the lawyerly or historian coming out in him that we need to make a record of these things. Now, partly he's making a record, obviously as a case against persecution. He talks about making sure that the persecutions that they faced are known to the powers that be. It's also a reminder that hard and difficult things are not something that we need to shy away from or turn away from. I think we treat our gospel experience as if it's supposed to be a summer's picnic. It's all the sunshine and roses. I'm reminded of the fact that the Savior himself asked if the cup could pass from him. Nobody was skipping along to Gethsemane. The difficulties and the dark things deserve to be remembered and recorded. In part, he's making a contemporary argument for the legal value of that record, but for our own learning. If the saints hadn't been willing to record their experiences, the difficult ones as well as the light ones, our understanding not only of the Restoration, but our understanding of discipleship would be terribly one sided and not particularly reflective of reality. In verse 16, when he finally gets this point of saying, holding onto these details, holding onto these records may seem like a small thing. That small thing can guide a large ship when it's kept workways with the wind and the waves. That's not just about a legal record. At that point he's moved beyond the recording of charges against their enemies. He's talking, seems to me, about a bigger principle about being willing to work into the wind and the waves. That that's how you stay afloat is by paying attention to the difficult things and the easy things. Relatively small act of keeping a record can help you manage that storm. It's one of the sins for which I feel culpable. I've never been a great journal keeper. Partly, I think that's the historian in me is I know what people do with journals once you're gone. So I've always been a little bit hesitant to keep one. But holding onto that record, recognizing your story, recognizing the good and the bad and the beautiful and the ugly and the way God's gotten you through it all, which is really what these sections are doing, that this is that little helm that can get our ship through the storms that come. I think it's interesting again that he's talking about a very particular call for the, I think particular legal and political purpose here. Once again, we end up at a very transcendent principle here that I think applies to all of us.
[17:21]
A
Yeah, this is beautiful at the end. I love this line in verse 12 that there are some yet on earth who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it. I'm always reminded of Lehi's dream when he tastes the fruit and says, where is your mother? Oh, my goodness, this is so good. Where is your family? I called to them. They stood as if they knew not whether they should go boom, right there. They just didn't know where to go. So I called to them with a loud voice and said, come unto me. How many are looking? I just don't know where to find it. To me, it's a very charitable verse and a motivating verse to say there's some who are looking, they just don't know where to find it.
[18:07]
B
Yeah. In a section that's otherwise overwhelmingly about some pretty dark and difficult things. Murder, tyranny, oppression, grief, sorrow, bow down, iron yoke, handcuffs, chains, shackles, fetters of hell. This is not the sunshiniest section that you could find. But then there's this beautiful interjection in 12 that says, there's goodness out there. There's a lot of goodness. There's a lot of good hearts out there, too. The Lord's always trying to help us see both the light and the dark. Joseph talked about that repeatedly. If you lead a man to salvation, you got to be able to stare into the darkest abyss as well as contemplate the highest heaven. A lot of this first part is about the abyss, and then 12 is about. And there's a lot of good people out there, and if they hear the truth, they're going to resonate with it.
[19:03]
C
As I read these later sections, it seems that Joseph1 is studying the Constitution. He is interested in the rule of law. At times he seems shocked that this is the United States of America, where the freedom of religion.
[19:22]
A
We've got a Bill of Rights.
[19:23]
C
Yeah.
[19:24]
A
What's going on?
[19:25]
C
Even runs for president because there's not a political candidate who's willing to at least stand up for the Latter Day Saints. If I lean into your history here a little bit, The Constitution's only 55, 56 years old. Is this a common occurrence in 1800s America? The religious persecution?
[19:46]
B
Not uncommon. The persecution, for instance, against Catholics could be particularly intense. I work not far from the site of the famous burning of the Ursuline Convent just outside of Boston. Depended on the nature of the religion. If you were an Evangelical Protestant Christian, by the time you got to the 1830s and 40s, you were pretty safe. That wasn't always true. Baptists were mercilessly persecuted back in the 1700s. Methodists faced their share of persecution shortly thereafter. But by the Time you got to mid century, if you belong to the evangelical family, you were in pretty good shape. But if you were outside that there could be a price to be paid, particularly if people thought that you were a little bit mysterious. And that's sometimes the claim that was thrown both at Latter Day Saints and at Catholics that tended to raise a great deal of suspicion and anger. The Latter Day Saints are not alone in facing persecution. But part of the challenge here is that the Latter Day Saints were relatively small. Catholics grow quickly during the 19th century with immigration from Europe and had the numbers to begin to control certain neighborhoods and certain precincts began to have some say over New York politics pretty quickly, for instance. And until they get to Latter Day Saints don't have the critical mass to defend themselves in the same way. It's not entirely unusual, but the intensity and the circumstance of it I think make for particularly difficult story here.
[21:35]
C
These Latter Day Saints, they have to leave the country they feel in order to freely practice their religion. The Founding Fathers had a different idea.
[21:45]
B
We could talk for a long time about the First Amendment. But part of the challenge here, and this is the famous Martin Van Buren line, your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you. There was a pretty strong constitutional theory about federal jurisdiction, that religion was actually the purview of local authorities and that the federal government doesn't have any right to intervene on matters of religion. That doesn't really change quite literally until the incorporation of the First Amendment in the 1940s series of cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses and pledging allegiance set off a new doctrine there where the federal government gets more and more involved in religious freedom issues. Now there's an exception to that. To your question about Latter Day Saints is facing particular persecution. One of the exceptions to that is if it's a territory, the territories were treated differently than the states. Polygamy became an object of federal intervention because Utah was a territory. And that's how you get some Supreme Court rulings regarding polygamy, because of the territorial status versus statehood. The question of how does this happen in a constitutional republic? Partly that has to do with the way the Constitution's being read at a particular time. And Joseph had a very 20th century reading of the Constitution. He thought that the First Amendment should be federally enforced and protected, that that should involve federal intervention when the states like Missouri were, he felt, persecuting the saints on the basis of their religious faith. But that's where somebody like Van Buren is coming from, saying, not a federal issue. Wish I could do Something for you, but sorry you got to face the locals on your own as you get.
[23:36]
C
Into these later sections. He's getting himself a little law degree.
[23:41]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
[23:41]
C
He really wants to understand this and. And go to bat for the Saints.
[23:46]
A
I appreciate that perspective. There was always somebody to pass it off to. Well, that's a states rights issue. You're going to have to figure that out with Missouri. I can see how a president would do that. We talk as much about states rights versus federal rights now as much as we used to, I think. Boy, at the time of the first Constitution, it was a bunch of different states united, but they were their own thing and they wanted to be that way.
[24:14]
C
Yeah, Missouri was really far west. Is that complicated as well.
[24:21]
A
Proximity, vigilante justice out there.
[24:23]
C
Right.
[24:24]
B
Yeah. There probably was a sense of distance that made the federal government perhaps even a little bit more hesitant to wade in. By the same token, the westward expansion and the territories also had a degree of federal power in them. So it's a complicated history. But I think to John's point, there was both constitutional theory and political interest in not getting involved.
[24:51]
C
This is Joseph Smith in 1843. So a year before he dies, he says, the Saints can testify whether I am willing to lay down my life for my brethren if it had been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a Mormon. He says, I am bold to declare before heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or good man of any other denomination for the same principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter Day Saints, would trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholics or of any other denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves. It's got to be breaking his heart.
[25:32]
B
Of course, after all of that, verse 17 Is this beautiful concluding principle that after we've done all of this, after we've been through all of this, after we've done what we can, then we can stand still with the utmost assurance and see the salvation of God. Even when we detail all of the difficulty of the world in which we live and all of the opposition that we face, he's ending on this note of optimism. He's ending on this note of reassurance, this idea of standing still. Sometimes we get a little frenetic in our thought that we've got to fix everything and there's only so much we can do. At some point, you have to stand still and see the salvation of God.
[26:21]
C
Yeah, I've always been interested in the word cheerfully There. I'd be okay if it said, dearly beloved brethren, let us do all things that lie in our power.
[26:34]
A
No, but you have to do it cheerfully.
[26:35]
C
But now, cheerfully, same type of verse. This is Mosiah 24. The people of Alma the Elder are praying for help in their bondage to the priests of Noah and Lamanites. The Lord tells them, I will ease the burdens upon your shoulders. Then this statement from Mosiah 24:15, the Lord did strengthen them that they could bear up their burdens with ease. And they did submit and cheerfully and with patience to all the will of the Lord. I'm okay with that. They did submit with patience. But it's that they did submit cheerfully and with patience. I'd be interested in how you both do that. Cheerfully do things. I don't know if he's talking that you have to be permanent smile on your face and a big happy button. But there does need to be a measure of enthusiasm. John, how do you do it? John, you're a cheerful person. Does it come natural?
[27:33]
A
No. I appreciate the adjectives, the impossible task you've laid out before me these past four years with the adjectives that you've given me. I marvel too at that. I marvel and I love it. I go, wow, look at that level to aspire to. But there is a peace that comes when you can say, lord, I've done everything I can think of. There's a peace that comes when you can hit your knees and say that I've done my best. I've done everything I can think of. And then this awesome statement. Then stand still and watch. I still want to talk about verse 16. You know, brethren, I just love this. This is out of the book of James. You see the Footnote There, James 3, 4. He says the same thing. A very large ship is benefited very much by a very small helm. That is, to me, the rudder in the time of a storm. Oh, my goodness, are we living in the time of a storm? But what if we have a rudder? A helm that implies that there's a course, a destination, there's President Nelson might say, a covenant path. All the winds and the waves out there. With a helm, we can be kept workways. We can make progress even in a storm, because we have a helm. I'll never forget President Monson's talk about the German battleship, the Bismarck. Do you remember that? He talked about how big it was and how the walls were so many feet thick of steel. It was just this incredible battleship, and the Allies forces pounded it and Couldn't do anything until somebody scored a hit on the rudder, the very small part. Then President Monson said all it could do was steer a circle. The Allies pounded it until they sunk it because it couldn't be kept workways with the wind and the waves anymore. What's our rudder? I have a canoe in my garage. That's what it does most of the time. Hangs in my garage. Does a canoe have a rudder?
[29:45]
C
No.
[29:46]
A
No. I learned back in the Boy Scouts of America days. I learned the J stroke, where you paddle and then you twist your oar and hold it and it becomes the rudder for a second. I learned to do figure eights and anything I wanted to as long as I had my oar. But one of the cool things that I learned that I love to equate with this verse is what do you think is the safest thing to do in a canoe? When you come across a big wave and it seems counterintuitive, head right into it, right? Don't turn sideways, go right at it. You go, oh, no. Oh no. Oh no. It's going to tip you over. You go right at it. You go up and over. That is being kept. Work ways with the wind and the waves. And I love to tell young adults, go right at it. Go right at life and do your best. Do all things that lie in your power, because you have a course and a helm and a destination. And then you can say, I'm doing the best I can. Lord, help me out. I love these verses. It's great life advice.
[30:50]
B
It's illustrated by all of the material that we've spoken about in the lead up to 16, which is, again, these sections, they head right into the wave. They're not sugarcoating it. They're not suggesting that we should overlook the difficulties that come in a disciple's life. We should stare them right in the face.
[31:14]
A
There are going to be storms. Here's my own footnote to Mormon 5. 18. But now, behold, they are led about by Satan, even as chaff is driven before the wind, or as a vessel is tossed about upon the waves without sail or anchor, or without anything wherewith to steer her. If we don't have a sail, we don't have an anchor, we don't have a rudder. We are driftwood. We're just going with the flow. The opposite of going with the flow. Yeah, you're in a storm, but you don't have to go with the flow. You have a helm, a destination to keep your work waste with the wind and the waves. I Don't know. I got all aquatic for a second there, but I kind of. I like that metaphor.
[31:58]
B
I love it.
[32:00]
C
You pretty cheerful, David?
[32:03]
B
I think as a principal I am. I'm optimistic by nature. My wife sometimes calls me pathologically optimistic. That's a good thing to be, even given that tendency. I've known some long dark nights of the soul, as I think everybody has, where the optimism is hard to come by based on situations you're facing or circumstances you confront. I think we all need those reminders, even those of us that might be naturally inclined to certain cheerfulness. These sections are reminders to us that we all need to be called back to that. So I think it's interesting that 123 ends on that note after everything else that's preceded it. Remember to be cheerful, because even those of us that tend to view the world optimistically, those waves can get pretty big sometimes.
[33:05]
A
I like the statement of Joseph Smith speaks of his own native cheery temperament. That's something I aspire to. Elder Kelly Comstock, one of my mission companions that taught me a ton about just being cheerful. I'm so grateful to mission companions that I just watched him and thought, I'm going to be like him.
[33:29]
C
Maybe it ties back to that confidence we talked about in section 121. I find that I'm more cheerful when I feel like I'm in control of a situation. And that confidence that comes from charity that we talked about earlier. I think that cheerfulness can come naturally when we feel confident. And maybe that's what the Lord is saying. You can be confident in me and in this work. You feel settled. It's okay to be cheerful. Verse 13, Joseph Smith. We should wear out our lives. I have noticed that among our church leaders. John, you can go a little bit further back than me. Not too far. I watched President Hinckley wear out right in front of us. I remember President Monson. Do you remember President Monson stood up at the pulpit. It was one of his first talks as a president of the church. And he's wiggling his ears. Do you remember his last talk? He can't even hold himself up. President Nelson going on 101. We watch. And their wives. They literally wear out in front of us. It's a privilege. It's a hard thing to witness, but it's a privilege to watch that happen. It's so inspiring. Didn't President Kimball hold up his shoes and say, I want to be like this old pair of shoes, worn out in service.
[35:01]
A
Like you? Said David, the First several verses of this 123. Look at some of these terms. Diabolical, rascality, nefarious, hellish, hiding without excuse. And then we get to the end. And it is so inspiring. I guess the Lord knows how to end a talk. Let's do all the things that lie in our power, then stand still.
[35:25]
C
I've often thought that with my children I need to be pretty cheerful because I'm a billboard for the gospel. I don't want my kids to go. Well, why would I want to do. David, I have a question before we let you go. For me personally, and I know John and I have talked about this at length, we love to hear every testimony. But one of the reasons we do our show is that we like to bring on people who have been taught in the secular world. You have a doctorate degree in history. You are teaching at Harvard, a well known school. Yeah, I've heard of Harvard, yeah. Where I'm sure not everyone is the believer, especially a Latter Day Saint believer. Here you've studied a lot, you've experienced a lot. You're out in territory where there's not a lot of people that believe what you do. In some people's minds, that should be a recipe for losing your faith. Yet here you are a believer.
[36:30]
B
Well, I do have great appreciation for the secular institutions that have given me opportunity and through which I have encountered wonderful forms of knowledge and understanding, and I've dedicated my professional life to that. But quite honestly, the church will counterbalance everything if we let it. I've had the opportunity along that journey to be a bishop and to be a stake president, actually, of two different stakes, and to have pretty demanding callings, which at times can feel overwhelming. Sometimes you wonder why the Lord asks of us what he asks. But it's been the counterbalance in a way. My professional life has never been the entirety of my life because I've tried to take seriously opportunities to serve. It's allowed my secular training and my ministerial life to enrich each other. I'm sure there's a lot of my educational background that filters into what I'm doing. I'm currently an early morning seminary teacher. Oh, really?
[37:52]
A
No kidding.
[37:55]
B
I'm sure it comes up there as well. But my point is that the church will create a counterbalance to anything else that is trying to draw all of us in. And I've found that enormously helpful, notwithstanding its challenges. I know that there are times when I've had absolutely nothing to fall back on but the Lord and His mercy and his message. And I know that I've found him there. I'll just be candid with you. It felt to me like a providence, like a work of the Lord, that you asked me to do these sections, because I won't get into details, but I'm battling some pretty difficult challenges currently and have wondered sometimes about Job and Joseph. Not that I would compare my little piddling concerns with theirs, but this is a good example of, you know, I thought, well, summer's busy and it's going to be right before the start of the school year. Should I hop on this podcast? Just a feeling that when you have an opportunity to discuss the Gospel and share your faith, you ought to take it. That's sort of my default position. Obviously, you can't do everything all the time, but back in the relative sunshine of May, you accept an opportunity and then you find yourself in the middle of a storm. Lo and behold, this thing you committed to do happens to bring into your life the very sections that you should be studying and you should be focusing on in this particular moment. And that's just been my experience over the course of my life. If you make yourself available, God will give you opportunities to find Him. I am grateful to him. I love him. And I'm grateful for the chance to discuss his goodness and his power in good times and in bad. And I'm grateful for my testimony.
[39:58]
C
That's wonderful, David. I actually have one more question before I let you go. I know John's probably giving me the signal, let him go. Let him go.
[40:06]
B
Let my people go.
[40:07]
C
Yeah, let my people go. Such a blessing to have you here. There is an idea, I think, among some, that you don't want to learn too much of this history. You don't want to learn too much about Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or any of these people. You'll lose your faith. Yet as a historian, I'm sure you've done a little work here. And the historians we've had on John, we've yet to have one of them say, yeah, don't know too much history. You definitely want to shy back. What would you say to that myth, David? That someone's scared of history, of the Church?
[40:46]
B
A few things. I think one of them is that my own view is to whitewash or to shy away from history is to rewrite God's work in the world. The fact that people are blemished and histories are challenging, as we have just been discussing in these sections, God does not want us to shy away from the dark and difficult things. Partly for me, it's that my testimony is rooted in principles rather than personalities. You don't see Jeremiah insisting that you believe in Isaiah, that he's preaching the message, he's preaching the principles. It reminds me a little bit of the story in John 9, when Jesus is healing the blind man. The critics come up and say, don't you know that man's a sinner? And the blind man says, I don't know. What I know is that I was blind and now I see, which is to say I have lived the experience. So when people ask me, was this church leader or that church leader, were they worthy of belief or not? For me, it's always the Christ's principle. You got to live it and you'll know it. I don't get too caught up on the relationship of my eternal commitments to the temporal facts of history. My eternal commitments are based on my own experience of living the principles and seeing the promises fulfilled. I can do nothing else but believe. On the basis of my own experience. I can do nothing else but believe. History enriches our capacity to understand how God works, the imperfect ways that human beings try to apply perfect things. Joseph says in 121, what is human nature? You know, it is the tendency of almost all men, right? We learn things by studying that history. But I don't base eternal decisions on temporary events. I base them on my testing of eternal principle. That's why I believe.
[42:59]
C
I'm so glad I asked you that.
[43:01]
A
David, you might not know this, but that's one of Hank's very favorite verses. The blind man in John 9. I don't know, but this much I know. I was blind and now I see. And as Hank has taught me, can be such a great answer to so many questions people have. Oh, I don't know about this or that fact of church history, but this much I know. This has changed my life and I have the fruits of it. Thank you for bringing that. That's why Hank's smiling so big right now.
[43:32]
B
I just.
[43:35]
C
That little story to me, is so impactful because these are very powerful people telling him, you, you need to stop.
[43:43]
A
They're going to kick you out of the synagogue.
[43:45]
B
Right?
[43:47]
C
And I love that he's honest. I don't know about that. He might be. I've never even seen him. I was blind this morning, and now I'm not. That's pretty significant. David, this has been a fantastic day with you.
[44:01]
B
Thank you. Enjoyed the conversation.
[44:03]
C
So much fun to have such a great teacher with such great content. You feel uplifted and edified. And I know the Holy Ghost has been here because I don't want. I don't want to leave. I don't want it to end. We have listeners all over the world and we love them and I'm sure that they are grateful. And so we want to voice that for you. In fact, if you'd like to come onto YouTube and leave a comment, we'll make sure that Dr. Holland gets those. If you'd like to send a message or you can come over to our website, followhim.co. it's a wonderful day, wonderful time to be with you. With that, we want to thank Dr. David Holland for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorenson, and every episode we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We have more Doctrine and Covenants coming up on Follow Him. Thank you for joining us on today's episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today's show notes and transcript are on our website, followhim. Co. That's followhim. Co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, Sydney Smith and Annabelle Sorenson. Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always valid in the life.
[45:46]
A
And teachings of Jesus Christ.
[45:49]
C
Turn to him.
[45:51]
A
Follow him.