followHIM Podcast Doctrine & Covenants 121–123, Part 2 • Dr. David Holland Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway Date: October 15, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode continues an in-depth, scriptural and historical discussion of Doctrine & Covenants sections 121–123 with Dr. David Holland. The hosts and guest explore themes of chosenness, adversity, God’s encompassing care, leadership, religious liberty, and the value of historical perspective, connecting these eternal principles to personal discipleship and current issues. The conversation moves seamlessly between doctrinal exposition, personal reflection, and humor, resulting in a study-rich, uplifting discussion.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. “Many Are Called, But Few Are Chosen”: Agency and the Heart (00:00–04:59)

• The episode opens with a discussion about chosenness in scripture, referencing Elder Bednar’s talk "Tender Mercies of the Lord" (April 2005) and the phrase from D&C 121:34: “Many are called, but few are chosen.”
• Dr. Holland and the hosts emphasize that chosenness is determined by the desires and aspirations of our hearts, not divine favoritism.
• John Bytheway humorously recalls the division in scripture: "There's the Nephites, the Lamanites, and the favorites" (00:13).

Notable Quote:

“God does not have a list of favorites ... Rather, it is our hearts and our aspirations and our obedience which definitively determine whether we are counted as one of God's chosen.”
— Elder Bednar, cited by John Bytheway (00:56)

• The conversation delves into the dangers of setting our hearts on material wealth or the praise of others.

• Dr. Holland uses an analogy from addiction studies: what we’re willing to give up for our desires reveals our true priorities (02:59).

  Quote:
  “What are you giving up to hold onto [wealth], to get it?... That, for me, is maybe a kind of measure of where our hearts are.”
  — Dr. David Holland (03:10)

2. The Flow of Spiritual Power and Unrighteous Dominion (05:03–07:19)

• The principle of “dominion without compulsory means” (D&C 121:46) is explained, comparing the flow of spiritual guidance to an ever-flowing river, open to those who serve with pure intent.

• The trio lauds the example of Edward Partridge and the ability to “tear [our] affections from this world’s goods.”

  Quote:
  “The Holy Ghost will be your constant companion ... [and your] dominion ... will flow unto thee forever and ever.”
  — John Bytheway, paraphrasing D&C 121:46 (05:10)

3. God's Concern: Both Cosmic and Intimate (07:19–12:00)

• Dr. Holland reflects on the paradox of God’s care: His power spans creation but also embraces individual suffering. He illustrates with an Enlightenment philosopher’s doubt and contrasts this with scriptural assurance that “God functions at all those scales.”

  Quote:
  “The grandeur of the gospel is that God functions at all those scales ... both in the details and in the overarching plan.”
  — Dr. David Holland (08:33)

• They discuss how D&C 122 delivers very personal promises to Joseph Smith about suffering and ultimate assurance: “All these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. The Son of man hath descended below them all...” (11:13).

4. Suffering, Leadership, and the Savior's Empathy (12:00–14:18)

• Suffering is contextualized as part of discipleship and as a principle of Christlike leadership. The hosts connect D&C 122’s themes to the Savior’s own suffering and empathy: “I’m not asking you to do anything I have not done myself” (13:09).

  Memorable Moment:
  “He was baptized in ... the Jordan ... the lowest point on earth ... how poetic ... that he was baptized [there], descending literally ... below all things.”
  — Hank Smith (13:24)

5. The Importance of Remembering Difficult Experiences (14:18–19:03)

• Turning to D&C 123, Dr. Holland highlights Joseph’s insistence on making a record—both for legal/historical clarity and for spiritual formation.

• The hosts discuss the necessity of acknowledging and documenting hard things (“the dark and difficult things are not something that we need to shy away from or turn away from,” 14:31).

• Verse 12’s expression of hope is celebrated: “There are some yet on earth who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it.”

  Quote:
  “The Lord’s always trying to help us see both the light and the dark ... If you lead a man to salvation, you got to be able to stare into the darkest abyss as well as contemplate the highest heaven.”
  — Dr. David Holland (18:35)

6. Religious Liberty and Early American Context (19:03–24:51)

• Dr. Holland gives historical context to the Saints’ persecution and Joseph Smith’s constitutional efforts.
• He discusses the distinction between state and federal jurisdiction (“your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you”—Martin Van Buren).
• The evolution of First Amendment protection is tracked, showing how and when federal authority began protecting religious freedoms more robustly.

7. Standing Still and Acting Cheerfully in Adversity (24:51–33:04)

• The importance of “stand[ing] still ... and see[ing] the salvation of God” (D&C 123:17) is explored.

• Cheerfulness as a spiritual discipline is discussed, contrasted with simply enduring adversity. The hosts reflect on Mosiah 24:15: “They did submit cheerfully and with patience to all the will of the Lord.”

• John Bytheway shares a memorable aquatic metaphor about steering into life’s storms with faith.

  Memorable Moment:
  “What do you think is the safest thing to do in a canoe when you come across a big wave? ... Head right into it. ... That is being kept workways with the wind and the waves. Go right at life and do your best.”
  — John Bytheway (29:46)

8. The Rudder/Helm Metaphor & Spiritual Navigation (26:33–31:58)

• The analogy of a helm (rudder) on a ship in a storm (D&C 123:16) is applied to maintaining direction and resilience through discipline and gospel focus.
• President Monson’s story of the battleship Bismarck is referenced to further illustrate how small things (a helm, a record, faith) guide us through difficulties.

9. Endurance of Prophets and Church Leaders (33:28–35:00)

• The visible “wearing out” of Church leaders in service is honored as a moving testament to lifelong faithfulness.
• President Kimball’s “worn out shoes” metaphor is remembered in this context (34:20).

10. Navigating Faith and Secular Knowledge (35:25–42:59)

• Dr. Holland is asked about maintaining faith as a scholar at Harvard and a church leader.

• He shares how academic inquiry and church service provide counterbalancing influences in his life, especially during personal struggles.

• He testifies of personal revelation and providence in moments of weakness and trial.

  Quote:
  “If you make yourself available, God will give you opportunities to find Him. ... That's just been my experience.”
  — Dr. David Holland (38:50)

11. Addressing Fears of Church History: Faith Rooted in Principles (40:07–42:59)

• Responding to the idea that learning church history might threaten faith, Dr. Holland emphasizes faith rooted in tested principles, not personalities.

• He references the healing of the blind man in John 9 (“I don’t know ... I was blind and now I see.”) as a model for focusing on lived gospel fruits rather than historical scandal.

  Quote:
  “My own view is to whitewash or to shy away from history is to rewrite God's work in the world. ... My testimony is rooted in principles rather than personalities.”
  — Dr. David Holland (40:46)

Memorable Quotes by Timestamp

• Elder Bednar on Chosenness: “God does not have a list of favorites ... Rather, it is our hearts and our aspirations and our obedience which definitively determine whether we are counted as one of God's chosen.” (00:56, cited by John Bytheway)
• Addiction Analogy: “What are you giving up to hold onto [wealth] ... That, for me, is maybe a kind of measure of where our hearts are.” (03:10, Dr. Holland)
• God’s Infinite Scale: “The grandeur of the gospel is that God functions at all those scales ... both in the details and in the overarching plan.” (08:33, Dr. Holland)
• Suffering and Empathy: “I’m not asking you to do anything I have not done myself.” (13:09, Dr. Holland)
• History’s Value: “To whitewash or to shy away from history is to rewrite God's work in the world. ... My testimony is rooted in principles rather than personalities.” (40:46, Dr. Holland)
• Experience as Testimony: “I was blind and now I see.” (John 9, referenced multiple times, especially 43:01–44:00)
• Providence and Availability: “If you make yourself available, God will give you opportunities to find Him.” (38:50, Dr. Holland)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 – 04:59: “Many Are Called, But Few Are Chosen” – Agency and Materialism
• 07:19 – 12:00: “God’s Care: Universal and Personal” – From cosmic to intimate in D&C 121–122
• 13:24: “Descended Below All Things” – Baptism in the lowest place on earth
• 14:18 – 19:03: “Recording Our Trials: The Value of History” – D&C 123 and personal record-keeping
• 19:03 – 24:51: “Religious Liberty in Early America” – Constitutional context and Joseph Smith’s advocacy
• 24:51 – 33:04: “Standing Still, Cheerfulness, and Navigating Storms” – Faithful optimism; rudder/helm metaphor
• 35:25 – 42:59: “Faith and Secular Learning” – Dr. Holland’s experience as a believing historian
• 40:46 – 44:00: “Addressing Historical Concerns” – Faith in principles, not personalities

Notable Moments

• The analogy between addiction and heart-set desires (03:10)
• Personal stories of parental sacrifice and priorities (04:22)
• The use of “all” in D&C 122: Christ’s atonement is comprehensive (11:13)
• The inspiring story of Lehi calling his family to the fruit; spiritual outreach (17:21)
• John Bytheway’s aquatic analogy of facing storms in a canoe (29:45)
• Testimony about how church service and gospel study counterbalance secular work (38:50)

Tone & Style

The episode is reflective, earnest, scripturally literate, and seasoned with relatable anecdotes and gentle humor. Dr. Holland brings scholarly depth while maintaining a devotional, hopeful perspective. Both hosts use clear scriptural citations, historical insights, and relatable stories to invite listeners into deeper study and application.

Conclusion

This thoughtful episode complements scriptural study with rich doctrinal, historical, and personal perspectives. Through discussions on agency, adversity, faithfulness, constitutional history, and the lived gospel, listeners are equipped with insight and encouragement for personal discipleship. Dr. Holland’s testimony is a particular highlight, emphasizing experiential faith and the value of facing both light and dark with confidence in Christ.