Podcast Summary

followHIM with Hank Smith & John Bytheway

Episode: Doctrine & Covenants 125-128 Part 1 • Dr. Jordan Watkins • November 3-9 • Come Follow Me
Date: October 29, 2025
Guest: Dr. Jordan Watkins (Associate Professor, BYU; Joseph Smith Papers editor)

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode delves into Doctrine & Covenants sections 125–128, focusing primarily on the origins, theology, and personal dimensions of baptism for the dead within the Latter-day Saint tradition. Dr. Jordan Watkins joins hosts Hank Smith and John Bytheway to provide historical context, theological insights, and practical applications for listeners preparing Come, Follow Me lessons or personal study. The discussion weaves through key Nauvoo-era revelations, the importance of vicarious work, suffering and revelation, and the deeply human longing for connection across generations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Human Concern for the Dead — An Unlikely Opening

[02:12] Dr. Watkins opens with the story “The Encyclopedia of the Dead” by Serbian writer Danilo Kiš (1981), which imagines a library cataloguing every detail of every human life as an act of hope in the resurrection. He connects this fictional vision to the very real records and proxy ordinances performed by Latter-day Saints, situating the LDS preoccupation with the dead in global and historical human context.

“That story speaks to this human concern with the dead…a general concern, including records of the dead. And of course, that's going to be much of our focus for today.” — Dr. Watkins [04:50]

The Restoration as Proxy Work

Dr. Watkins sketches a broad theological frame: Christ’s Atonement as the essential, ultimate act of vicarious work, an idea echoed and extended in proxy ordinances.

• Proxy work is Plan A, not Plan B.
  “Vicariousness was and is the plan. It's not a Plan B, it's Plan A.” [09:53]
• Early Restoration events—Moroni’s visits, the translation of the Book of Mormon, Elijah’s promised return—are linked to themes of records, bodies, families, and overcoming separation (spiritual, temporal, generational).

The Emotional Context: Alvin’s Death, Suffering, and Revelation

Joseph Smith’s questions—and subsequent revelations—on work for the dead are traced to his personal grief over the death of his brother Alvin (1823) and the widespread suffering among the Saints.

• Alvin’s role as a catalyst:
  “Without Alvin, Joseph maybe isn't asking these kinds of questions. He's not wondering, he's not thinking about it…The story of Alvin highlights that point.” — Dr. Watkins [20:12]
• The early Saints’ repeated experiences of separation—through migration, persecution, and loss—served as a “springboard for revelation.” [56:17]

Section 125: Gathering, Place, and Proxy

• Saints receive divine permission to settle and build up Zarahemla in Iowa; Nauvoo as a “proxy” for Jackson County.
  • “Wherever we live, I think the Lord is saying we can strive to live as Christlike and Zion-like people.” [24:44]

Section 126: Brigham Young & Domestic Proxy

• Brigham is told his missionary offering is accepted; focus shifts from distant missionary labors to caring for family.
• Act of proxy: Brigham’s wife, Marianne, “doing a proxy work,” enduring great hardship while Brigham served abroad. [28:29–32:00]
• Quote:
  “‘His constant thoughtfulness for our happiness and well-being endeared him to all of us…as close as if I had been his only child.’” — Clarissa Young Spencer [32:43]

Baptism for the Dead: Origins, Practice, and Theology

Ancient and Early Modern Contexts

• Latter-day Saint practice is exceptional for its insistence on both the necessity of baptism and embodiment (a body is required for baptism).
  • “In some ways, we have more in common with Catholics than Protestants. Our faith is in some ways…sacramental, ritualistic.” [48:28]
• Various Christian traditions either downplayed or spiritualized proxy ordinances (e.g., altars calls vs. baptism by immersion).

Joseph’s Revelation after Personal and Collective Grief

• Immediate context: Death of Seymour Brunson and grief of Jane Nyman, who worried for her unbaptized son, Cyrus.
  • Joseph introduces baptism for the dead at Brunson’s 1840 funeral [07:05–08:00].
• Vienna Jaques: Rode horseback into the Mississippi to serve as witness at the first recorded baptism for the dead. [52:41]
• Early Saints were baptized for those they mourned personally; not yet a broad genealogical project. [57:26]

Implementation & Evolving Practice

• Initial baptisms were performed in the Mississippi, often with inconsistent record-keeping.
• D&C 124 & 127-128 mark the requirement for temple fonts and for records to be kept: “There was some sense that we should keep some record, not at the level that they got to after these letters.” [69:15]
• The physical work of building temples is compared to spiritual preparation; in modern times, sacrifice of time and attention replaces physical labor:
  • “There’s a reason we use the term pay attention. It costs us something.” — Dr. Watkins referencing Michael Austin [72:12]

Theology of Sacrifice, Proxy, and Divine Economy

• Sacrifice leads to spiritual returns:
  “What appears to be a sacrifice turns out to be an investment which pays you dividends for the rest of your life.” — President Hinckley, referenced by Hank [73:42]
• Proxy ordinances as both self-transformative (sanctifying for the living) and salvific (redemptive for the dead).

Modern Application & Invitations

• Elder Richard G. Scott (2012): “Do you young people want a sure way to eliminate the influence of the adversary in your life? ... Immerse yourself in searching for your ancestors…Prepare their names...and then go to the temple…to stand as proxy for them.” [74:08]
• The work is now globally accessible through technology—“couple of touches on a phone.” [75:19]

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Vicariousness
  “Christ's incarnation and atonement is a singular kind of proxy work…vicariousness was and is the plan.” — Dr. Watkins [09:22, 09:53]
• On Sacrifice and the Temple
  “The building of the temple makes you something. God doesn't give it to you. You build it and you become something in the process.” — Dr. Watkins [70:17]
• On “Paying Attention” as Sacrifice
  “There's a great article by Michael Austin on the sacrament of attention. He says there's a reason we use the term pay attention. It costs us something.” — Dr. Watkins [72:12]
• Elder Scott's Promise:
  “I can think of no greater protection from the influence of the adversary in your life.” — Elder Richard G. Scott [74:08]
• On Parenting & Youth:
  “As a parent of teenagers, John, I want that. That's high on my list of rights to reduce the effects of the adversary… I have an answer right here.” — Hank Smith [75:23]

Notable Segment Timestamps

| Topic/Story | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Opening with “Encyclopedia of the Dead” story | 02:12–05:13 | | Alvin’s death and personal context for proxy work | 12:56–19:40 | | Nauvoo as new Zion, Zarahemla in Iowa | 21:07–25:06 | | Brigham Young’s family sacrifices | 27:57–34:14 | | Letters forming D&C 127–128, epistolary revelation | 34:26–39:10 | | Early Christian, Catholic, Protestant views on the dead | 47:45–49:20 | | Jane Nyman, Seymour Brunson funeral & 1st baptisms | 51:33–56:11 | | Building temples—physical work vs. modern sacrifices | 70:17–71:57 | | “The sacrament of attention”—paying attention | 71:57–72:30 | | Elder Scott’s “protection from the adversary” promise | 74:01–75:07 |

Tone & Language

The episode’s tone is warm, earnest, and scholarly, blending devotional insights with historical depth. The hosts frequently express genuine awe at the scope and beauty of the doctrine, making space for personal application and the lived experience of the Saints, both past and present.

Takeaways for Listeners

• Baptism for the dead is central to both LDS theology and lived experience; it's rooted in profound human desires for connection and healing.
• Personal suffering, loss, and historical circumstances prepared Joseph Smith and the early Saints to receive revelatory answers.
• The work for the dead is a community endeavor, past and present—requiring not only ritual and record, but also personal sacrifice, whether of labor or attention.
• Modern Saints are invited to actively participate in this redemptive work with the promise of spiritual protection, connection, and transformation.

For further study and resources:

• Dr. Watkins recommends recent scholarship by Amy Harris (“Redeeming the Dead and the D&C”), Brett Rogers (biography of Vienna Jaques), and various articles on early LDS temple work and ritual.

This summary omits promos, non-content banter, and episode transitions as requested.