followHIM Podcast Summary

Episode: Doctrine & Covenants 135–136 Part 1
Guests: Hosts Hank Smith & John Bytheway, with Dr. Keith Erekson
Date: November 19, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode delves deeply into Doctrine & Covenants sections 135 and 136, focusing primarily on the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum Smith and the subsequent uncertainty and leadership transition to Brigham Young. The discussion unpacks the emotional, historical, and doctrinal significance of these events for Latter-day Saints, and reflects on personal testimony, legacy, and what it means to follow living prophets through uncertain times.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Stage: The Impact of Martyrdom

• Personal and Communal Reaction to Carthage

  • The emotional weight of Carthage Jail resonates today with both a sense of heaviness and fulfillment of prophecy.
  • John Bytheway notes: “Here we are sitting here today, almost a couple of hundred years later, and we're talking about that. Wow, here we are. And everything that I hold dear comes from the Lord through his church, restored through his prophet.” (01:59)

• Uncertainty Following Joseph’s Death

  • Hank Smith highlights the uncertainty the Saints faced:
    • “They're heading out into the wilderness, fleeing a country. They don't know if they're going to survive.” (02:31)
  • Dr. Keith Erekson notes this speaks not only to 19th-century Saints but to “people in the 21st century who are trying living in that same uncertainty… we still have a living prophet to guide us through our times of trouble.” (03:12)

Historical Context & Doctrine & Covenants 135

• Last Testament of Joseph & Hyrum

  • Dr. Erekson shares moving details of Joseph’s last note to Emma:
    • "Dear Emma, I am very much resigned to my lot, knowing I am justified and have done the best that could be done. Give my love to the children." (08:15)

• Shock and Mourning Among the Saints

  • The reaction was immediate and profound, spreading through letters and journals:
    • “There was a little sense, oh, yeah, they can't do anything to him. This was a shock, a real disconnect that people also write in their journals.” (09:22)
  • Creative mourning emerged (poetry, public statements); this is when section 135 was inserted as an “important published statement of Joseph’s mission.” (12:00–13:16)

• Historical Significance of Section 135

  • Added last-minute to the 1844 edition of Doctrine and Covenants—printed in smaller font—emphasizing the ongoing nature of the work and divine continuity despite tragedy. (13:29)

Key Teachings & Legacy

• The Evidence of Joseph’s Divine Calling

  • Section 135:3 is dissected as a ‘thesis statement’ listing evidences for Joseph Smith’s prophetic role:
    • Brought forth, translated, and published the Book of Mormon
    • Sent gospel worldwide
    • Published revelations and commandments
    • Gathered Israel in literal and symbolic ways (16:30–18:18)
  • Dr. Erekson: “The quorum of the 12 takes seriously their mission, that they should be traveling, that they should be Special witnesses of Christ to the whole earth.” (17:19)

• The Global Vision from the Beginning

  • Countering the myth of a ‘Utah Church,’ Dr. Erekson notes:
    • “For the first generation of Latter Day Saints, they absolutely knew that the message of the Restoration was for the whole earth.” (17:53)
    • Missionaries reached the Pacific, England, and even had converts journey from India to Utah. (23:12–24:01)

The Relationship of Joseph and Hyrum

• Unity in Life and Death

  • Section 135’s tribute: “In life, Joseph and Hyrum were not divided, and in death, they were not separated.”
  • Erekson highlights how, for early Saints, the two were inseparable figures—both a “prophet and patriarch.” Over time, their close partnership became less emphasized in commemoration (24:33–29:02).

• Martyrdom and Innocence

  • The document asserts their martyrdom and innocence, paralleling their deaths with Christ and other Christian martyrs.
    • “Joseph and Hyrum join a very select group of innocents and martyrs. The text ends with the invocation of a really powerful image, the image of blood.” (28:24)

The Smith Family Sacrifices

• Family as Foundational

  • Lucy Mack Smith’s repeated losses underscore the heavy cost the Smith family bore for the Restoration.
  • “If you love the Book of Mormon, the Smith family comes with it.” (33:02)

• Smiths as First Audience

  • The family was always involved, first to hear about Joseph’s visions, and the story was continually rehearsed in home and private settings—humanizing both the work and the people behind it (33:02–34:38).

Willard Richards and John Taylor—Eyewitnesses at Carthage

• Richards’s Record

  • Willard Richards, secretary, temple recorder, and main historical source, left a detailed account of the martyrdom.
  • Reading Richards’ account (35:01–39:08), Hank notes the gravity: “It's pretty remarkable that there are people to tell this story… two of the four survive. Willard Richards is not shot at all… we're so indebted to him.” (39:08)

• John Taylor’s Watch—Fact or Folklore?

  • Dr. Erekson describes the Church’s recent forensic investigation, which affirmed John Taylor’s account that his watch plausibly saved his life from a slowed or ricocheted musket ball (43:05–46:00).

Disentangling Faith-Promoting Myths

• Fate of the Persecutors Debunked
  • Erekson calls a well-known book about the ‘terrible fates’ of Joseph’s persecutors “terrible history… not accurate.” (47:08)
  • Citing the legal research of Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin Hill, he explains that almost none of those charged for the deaths suffered unusual misfortune and that vengeance narratives are theologically misplaced. (47:22–50:26)

Legal & Historical Details of the Martyrdom

• Joseph’s Last Days

  • Context for Carthage: After shutting down the Nauvoo Expositor press (for which even Gov. Ford admitted Joseph acted within local authority), Joseph is arrested for destroying property, denied bail, and sent to Carthage under promises of protection that are not fulfilled (52:54–55:50).

• Governor Ford’s Prophecy

  • Ford, writing 10 years later, foresaw that Joseph’s name and the scenes of his life would become sacred like “Jerusalem” or “Mount of Olives,” and feared he’d be remembered as a villain, “like Pilate or Herod.” (55:50–58:07)

• External & Internal Predictions of the Church's End

  • Newspaper headlines after the martyrdom predicted the demise of Mormonism (“thus ends Mormonism”), a prophecy that proved entirely false (58:10–59:41).

Transition to Section 136: Brigham Young and the Future

• Uncertainty & Authority

  • Even Brigham Young experienced shock and deep anxiety, but eventually received spiritual reassurance that “we have everything that we need. Joseph gave us the keys, the authority.” (00:03 [excerpt]; 61:10)

  • Memorable quote (from Saints):

    • “The keys of the kingdom are right here with the church.” (63:28)

• Saints’ Faith and Resilience

  • Many Saints, like Phoebe Woodruff, asserted their faith was even stronger after the martyrdom: “These things will not stop the work any more than Christ's death did, but it will roll on with greater rapidity. Phoebe testified. I am stronger in the faith than ever.” (62:09)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Keith Erekson, on Joseph’s Last Letter:
  • “He had done what he could. His thoughts were with his children and family.” (08:15)
• John Bytheway, on Joseph’s Achievement:
  • “If he was 90 and he did this, it would be impressive. It's even more impressive that all this was done. He's a young 38.” (20:01)
• Keith Erekson, on the Saints’ Global Vision:
  • “This final dispensation has neither of those limits. It will go to all the earth. It will extend to all who have lived on the earth or will yet live.” (19:07)
• Willard Richards (as read by Hank Smith):
  • “If your wounds are not fatal, I want you to live to tell the story. I expected to be shot the next moment and stood before the door awaiting the onset.” (38:24)
• Keith Erekson, on ‘Fate of the Persecutors’:
  • “It's terrible history. That's the quickest way to do it… the rationale… that says the best way to bear testimony of Joseph is to go and show how God tortured other people… is a wrong headed way to think about prophets.” (47:22–50:26)
• John Bytheway, quoting Saints:
  • “These things will not stop the work any more than Christ's death did, but it will roll on with greater rapidity.” (62:09)
• Keith Erekson, on Trusting Joseph Smith:
  • “Often we talk about things from history… but over the course of my life, I have had a relationship of learning about him… For me, often testimony is that it's experience, it's not facts. You trust people you've had experiences with.” (65:08–66:50)

Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–03:57 | Introductions, overall themes, and context for D&C 135–136 | | 08:15 | Joseph’s final letter to Emma | | 09:22–13:16 | Immediate aftermath of the martyrdom, Saints’ reactions, Section 135 | | 16:30–19:07 | Section 135: Joseph’s works and evidence of divine calling | | 24:33–29:02 | Joseph and Hyrum’s unity in life and memory | | 35:01–39:08 | Willard Richards’ eyewitness account of Carthage | | 43:05–46:00 | Forensic investigation into John Taylor’s watch | | 47:08–50:26 | “Fate of the Persecutors” debunked, Carthage Conspiracy legal history | | 52:54–55:50 | Events leading to Carthage, legal context, and Governor Ford’s role | | 61:10 | Brigham Young’s reaction to news of Joseph’s death and spiritual comfort | | 62:09 | Letters of faith and testimony among the Saints after the martyrdom | | 65:08–70:29 | Dr. Erekson’s personal testimony on Joseph Smith and bearing witness |

Tone and Language

The episode is both reverent and scholarly, weaving together heartfelt reflection, historical analysis, and doctrinal insights. The tone is warm, approachable, and respectful, always seeking to inspire faith while encouraging critical engagement with history. The hosts and Dr. Erekson emphasize connection, experience, and the ongoing relevance of the Restoration.

For Listeners

This episode provides a thorough, empathetic look at one of the most formative moments in Latter-day Saint history, clearly capturing both the pain and the hope of the martyrdom and the faith that propelled the Church forward. The discussions remind listeners that both the history and the legacy of Joseph and Hyrum are intimately personal and ever-relevant—and that testimony is an ongoing experience, available to all who seek it.