followHIM Podcast – Episode Summary
Doctrine & Covenants 135–136, Part 2
Guests: Dr. Keith Erekson
Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway
Release Date: November 19, 2025

Episode Theme & Purpose
This episode explores Doctrine & Covenants sections 135 and 136, focusing on the transition from Joseph Smith’s martyrdom to the westward trek led by Brigham Young, and the ongoing story of Church leadership and revelation. Dr. Keith Erekson, a church historian, joins hosts Hank Smith and John Bytheway to provide context, historical insight, and spiritual application for these pivotal chapters in Latter-day Saint history, emphasizing the difference in leadership styles, the principle of ongoing restoration, and the relevance of these events for modern listeners.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Brigham Young’s Background and Leadership (01:10–07:13)

• Brigham’s Early Years: Brigham was not among the earliest members but joined after a couple of years (01:10). He sought out personal contact with Joseph Smith, wanting to “meet this prophet and shake his hand and talk with him” (01:24).
• Quorum of the Twelve: Brigham was part of the original Quorum; only he, Heber C. Kimball, and David Patten (who was soon killed) remained steadfast (02:52).
• Preparation for Leadership: “Brigham never saw this happening to him… He was 100% loyal. He was a defender. And in that reverence for Joseph, Brigham also saw himself as so far below or different.” (05:03, Dr. Erekson)
• Imposter Syndrome: Brigham consistently felt unworthy, telling followers, "Nobody is Joseph. I'm not Joseph" (05:22). Dr. Erekson explains, “When you are called, you don't feel qualified. Brigham would have told you that, I can't do this. And in many ways, that's the most important criteria. No, you can't do that, but God can do it.” (06:00)

Transition and the Nauvoo Exodus (07:13–14:15)

• Initial Response to Leadership Vacuum: The Quorum of the Twelve did not rush to fill Joseph's role but decided to “manage the work” collectively (07:37).
• Escalation in Nauvoo: Rising tensions and violence forced the Saints to begin the exodus during winter, much earlier than planned (10:30).
• Scale of the Challenge: “[Brigham Young’s] problem is totally different. Some of these people are now two time refugees, pushed out of Missouri, pushed out of Illinois, destitute, lost property… 10,000 people at this moment… moving across Iowa, unprepared for a major overland journey.” (11:52)

Section 136: Revelation at Winter Quarters (16:18–19:38)

• Purpose of the Revelation: Provided a practical, spiritual "blueprint" for organizing the pioneer companies and conducting the journey (16:18).
• Three Key Aspects:
  1. Organization: Companies formed by covenant—not just ordinance—that "we will make sure all a hundred of us... will make it" (16:45).
  2. Commandments: Emphasized honesty, stewardship, kindness—“return what you borrowed” and “no contention, no drunkenness” (17:20).
  3. Praising God: “The act of crossing the plains is an act of praise.” (18:28) Singing, dancing, and joy were core to pioneer culture.

“They do praise God. They sing, they dance, they're merry. Half of the people who cross the plains are under the age of 21… This is like a giant YSA conference. People are falling in love. They're having fun.” (20:29, Dr. Erekson)

The Realities of Pioneer Life (19:38–25:25)

• Not All Suffering: Contrary to popular belief, many pioneer companies suffered little or no death; the mortality rate was similar to staying home in Illinois, except in notable tragedies (Martin & Willie handcart companies) (21:39).
• Shared Rituals and Community: Brigham established way stations, rituals, and a shared journey narrative, binding Saints together (24:29).

“We have people that are happy and healthy and they want to enjoy what they're doing. And yeah, you have chores and yeah, you have to walk, but you still have fun.” (25:38, Dr. Erekson)

The Unique Nature of Brigham Young’s Revelation (26:04–27:47)

• Oral Tradition: Section 136 was shared orally and became a living memory and guiding “charge” rather than a frequently read scripture (26:24).
• Modern Application: “Don’t covet... edify one another... don’t speak evil” (27:16, Hank Smith) as a “Latter-day Saint survival guide to being a team.”

Succession Crisis and Break-off Groups (31:21–44:36)

• Who Went West?: About 60,000 Saints moved west over two decades, but there were notable schisms and alternative claimants (31:34).
• Other Movements:
  • Sidney Rigdon (Guardian theory)
  • William Smith (patriarchal/Smith family succession)
  • James Strang (claimed a letter and angelic calling)
  • RLDS/Community of Christ (Joseph Smith III)
• Dynamic Relationships: Over time, the relationship between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Community of Christ has become more collaborative, especially in historic preservation and research (42:24).

Prophets, Expectations, and Ongoing Revelation (44:36–59:20)

• “Prophet” Misconceptions: Dr. Erekson challenges listeners’ modern expectations—prophets aren’t superheroes or infallible oracles; they rely on the Holy Ghost as we all do (44:36; 54:39).
• Debunking Faith-Promoting Myths: The 'elevator shaft prophecy' of the Salt Lake Temple is a “wholly, totally made up” story—“we want a concrete testimony” but real prophetic work is to “commune with Jehovah” (47:18–50:00).
• Prophets as Messengers, Not Celebrities/Superheroes: “They’re messengers called of God. That’s who they are.” (55:00)
• Ongoing Restoration: “God will yet reveal many great and important things… President Nelson doesn’t know all of the stuff right now… It means he doesn’t know all those things.” (57:06)

“These messengers, they don’t teach us to follow them… They all know that they are following Jesus and they’re calling us to hear him and to follow him.” (58:37, Dr. Erekson)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Brigham never saw this happening to him… If you said anything bad about Joseph and Brigham's presence, you would have to deal with Brigham. He was 100% loyal.” (05:03, Dr. Erekson)
• “If God will yet reveal many great and important things, it means [the prophet] doesn't know all of those things.” (57:06, Dr. Erekson)
• “Praise to the man not because he foresaw elevators… praise to the man who communed with Jehovah.” (50:07, Dr. Erekson)
• “These aren’t a trained group of overland explorers. These are families and widows and children and the elderly and sick. Nobody else in American history is trying to move 10,000 people of all ages and health conditions.” (11:52, Dr. Erekson)
• “Half of the people who cross the plains are under the age of 21… This is like a giant YSA conference.” (20:29, Dr. Erekson)
• “They do have a gift, which is the same one we have… the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (54:39, Dr. Erekson)
• “We often engage with people as celebrities or superheroes... But that is not how it works.” (54:39, Dr. Erekson)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:10 – Brigham Young’s entry and role in early church leadership
• 05:03 – Brigham’s humility and loyalty to Joseph Smith
• 07:37 – The leadership vacuum after Joseph’s death
• 10:30 – The Nauvoo exodus and the Saints’ dire circumstances
• 16:18 – Key elements of Section 136: organization, commandments, praise
• 19:38 – Everyday life and culture of the pioneers
• 21:39 – Mortality rates and the myth of universal suffering
• 24:29 – Establishment of the pioneer trail and community rituals
• 26:24 – The oral and practical impact of Brigham Young’s revelation
• 31:21 – Succession crisis and break-off groups
• 42:24 – Modern relations with Community of Christ
• 44:36 – What makes a prophet? Debunking popular myths and clarifying expectations
• 50:07 – The elevator myth and the true measure of prophetic work
• 54:39 – Prophets as ordinary mortals using the Holy Ghost
• 57:06 – Ongoing restoration and the evolving nature of revelation

Spiritual and Practical Applications

• The pioneer story is a metaphor for our own journey and for building Zion collectively today.
• Section 136’s message on unity, kindness, covenant, and praise remains deeply relevant.
• Listeners are invited to see prophets as genuine, inspired messengers, not as mythic superheroes, and to focus on personal revelation and Christ-centered discipleship.

For Further Reflection
Dr. Erekson encourages listeners to appreciate the ongoing nature of restoration, to moderate their expectations of spiritual leaders, and to recognize the empowering legacy of Saints who traveled west—not in suffering alone, but in faith, praise, and joy.

“We get in these sections, glimpses in Joseph of Brigham, but I hope that's where we end up, that we'll say, I can trust that God is calling messengers.” (58:37, Dr. Erekson)