Podcast Summary: followHIM – Doctrine & Covenants 19 Part 1 • Andy Horton • March 3 - 9 • Come, Follow Me
Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway
Guest: Andy Horton
Release Date: February 26, 2025
Transcript Coverage: 00:00 – 71:34
Introduction
In this engaging episode of followHIM, hosts Hank Smith and John Bytheway delve deep into Doctrine & Covenants Section 19, exploring its profound teachings through the life and struggles of Martin Harris, a pivotal figure in the early days of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). Joined by Andy Horton, a seasoned teacher with over 30 years of experience in seminaries and institutes, the discussion promises to enrich listeners' understanding and application of the scripture.
Guest Introduction
John Bytheway introduces Andy Horton with heartfelt appreciation:
"Andy Horton has been someone that we've known for a long time. He's taught for 30 years in seminaries and institutes for a long time up at the church headquarters making movies... married Stephanie. What was it Provo and Tifu, you both, you were at different schools down there."
(02:22)
Andy Horton shares a humorous anecdote about unexpectedly being called to serve as a stake president, highlighting the unexpected nature of divine callings:
"I was not expecting... So I go to watch a basketball game with my wife... When I came back in, I said, wow, we have to go to the Stake center for, I guess, another interview."
(03:24)
Martin Harris's Story and Struggles
The episode centers on Martin Harris, his unwavering faith, and the immense challenges he faced while supporting the publication of the Book of Mormon. Andy Horton provides a comprehensive background:
"Martin was born in New York in 1783... He married his first cousin, Lucy... investigated the Quaker religion, a universalist, restorationist, Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterians... He was waiting for the truth, looking for it."
(02:12 - 06:40)
Andy Horton recounts Martin's pivotal moment of revelation in 1827 when he sought divine confirmation about Joseph Smith's prophetic calling:
"Martin had set his mind on asking God to show him that Joseph really was indeed God's chosen prophet... He prays... O Lord God, show me these things concerning the plates Joseph has... I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and deeds."
(06:40 - 12:26)
Financial and Social Pressures
The narrative progresses to Martin Harris's financial woes as he decides to mortgage his farm to fund the printing of the Book of Mormon, despite immense opposition:
"He needs to mortgage half the farm to print the book... Opposition to the Book of Mormon was intense already before its publication... Martin starts to panic a little... he's going to lose his farm."
(12:26 - 22:17)
Andy Horton draws parallels between Martin's struggles and common modern-day challenges, emphasizing the universal nature of facing "dark clouds" and seeking divine guidance:
"We all face difficult questions... What is the Gospel of Jesus Christ worth to me? What am I willing to sacrifice to help build God's kingdom?"
(22:12)
Repentance: A Choice Between Transformation and Suffering
A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the theme of repentance as presented in Section 19. The hosts explore the profound choice Martin Harris faced:
"Repent or suffer... It is a motivating scripture. It is saying, Martin, look, you either need to repent or this type of suffering is what you're going to experience."
(37:31 - 50:27)
John Bytheway shares an impactful personal reflection inspired by Elder Dallin H. Oaks:
"I had a few years ago when President Dallin H. Oaks said something... 'It's time to let Martin out from under the shadow of that experience...'"
(15:42 - 16:27)
Understanding "Endless" and "Eternal" in Scripture
The conversation delves into the theological nuances of terms like "endless" and "eternal" as used in Doctrine & Covenants Section 19. Andy Horton clarifies the distinction between different forms of "damned":
"Damned D a m m e d means to hinder... Damned D a m n e d means to inflict injury or loss."
(36:19 - 54:34)
The hosts discuss how these terms convey qualitative suffering rather than infinite duration, providing a fresh perspective on repentance and divine mercy.
Personal Experiences and Modern Applications
Throughout the episode, Andy Horton and the hosts share personal anecdotes that mirror the struggles of Martin Harris, emphasizing the relevance of Section 19 in contemporary life:
"We might want to talk about the term he brings, eternal damnation... And how it's a loving father trying to prevent further harm."
(68:18 - 71:34)
Andy Horton recounts a poignant story of counseling a woman who feared confession would lead to her membership being revoked, illustrating the compassionate application of repentance:
"She was so terrified of the event of confession... I felt prompted to say, you haven't been to church yet today... She continued to weep, but she started to feel that there was hope for her."
(67:58 - 71:34)
Key Teachings from Section 19
The hosts highlight several critical lessons from Doctrine & Covenants Section 19, focusing on:
-
Divine Support: Emphasizing that the Savior is always with us, reinforcing Martin's covenant with Christ.
"I am Alpha and Omega... I will be with you from the beginning of this project to the end of this project."
(24:31 - 39:27) -
Purposeful Suffering: Understanding that suffering serves as a tool for transformation rather than endless punishment.
"It's endless in the type of suffering in degree... Qualitative suffering, not quantitative."
(54:31 - 63:19) -
Repentance as Liberation: Portraying repentance not as an obligation but as the pathway to alleviating suffering and embracing divine grace.
"Martin, look, you either need to repent or this type of suffering is what you're going to experience... repent or suffer."
(50:27 - 54:34)
Applying the Lessons Today
The discussion encourages listeners to apply Martin Harris's example in their own lives. By facing challenges with faith and embracing repentance, individuals can overcome personal "dark clouds" and experience spiritual growth.
"As we discover the Savior and we repent on a daily basis, then we use both justice and mercy on healthy levels."
(51:34 - 63:19)
Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two
As the episode concludes, Hank Smith and Andy Horton hint at continuing the profound exploration of Section 19 in the next installment, promising deeper insights and applications.
"Coming up in part two of this episode, I called the missionary department... They know what they're talking about, but this came from the Lord."
(71:34)
Notable Quotes:
- Andy Horton (00:03): "She brought her home teacher with her... she trusted him that much."
- John Bytheway (01:22): "Section 19 is one of my favorites of the whole Doctrine of Covenants."
- Andy Horton (22:42): "I need a commandment."
- John Bytheway (47:49): "Repent or suffer. That was dynamite for me."
- Andy Horton (54:34): "Endless punishment is God's punishment."
- Andy Horton (68:18): "This is God not wanting to see you suffer. Please repent."
Key Takeaways:
- Section 19 provides a powerful framework for understanding the choices between repentance and enduring self-inflicted suffering.
- Martin Harris's dedication illustrates the timeless struggle between faith, sacrifice, and societal pressures.
- Repentance is portrayed not as a punitive measure but as a liberating act that aligns individuals with divine will.
- Endless vs. Eternal: Clarifying scriptural terminology enhances our comprehension of divine intentions and mercy.
- Modern Application: Embracing the lessons from Martin Harris can help individuals navigate personal challenges with faith and resilience.
Connect with followHIM:
- Show Notes: followhim.co
- YouTube: FollowHimOfficialChannel
- Instagram: instagram.com/followhimpodcast
- Facebook: facebook.com/followhimpodcast
Stay tuned for Part 2, where Hank Smith and Andy Horton continue their exploration of Doctrine & Covenants Section 19, unraveling its depths and practical applications for modern believers.