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Doctrine & Covenants 84 Part 2 • Dr. Jared Halverson • July 28 - Aug 3 • Come Follow Me - followHIM | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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Doctrine & Covenants 84 Part 2 • Dr. Jared Halverson • July 28 - Aug 3 • Come Follow Me

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Wed Jul 23 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: followHIM Episode on Doctrine & Covenants 84 Part 2

Release Date: July 23, 2025 Guests: Dr. Jared Halverson Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway

Introduction to Doctrine and Covenants Section 84

In the second part of their deep dive into Doctrine and Covenants Section 84, hosts Hank Smith and John Bytheway welcome Dr. Jared Halverson to explore the intricate themes surrounding priesthood, ordinances, and their impact on modern-day practices within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS). The conversation delves into the historical and theological underpinnings of priesthood authority, contrasting Catholic and Protestant perspectives, and emphasizing the restored gospel's unique balance between faith and works.

Priesthood Authority: Ordinances vs. Ordination

Dr. Jared Halverson opens the discussion by addressing concerns among Protestant friends regarding LDS ordinances, which some perceive as works that might discount Christ's atonement. He explains that while Protestantism emphasizes "sola scriptura, sola fides, and sola gracia," emphasizing faith and grace without accompanying works, the LDS Church views priesthood ordinances as a "channel of grace, a conduit of grace" (00:21).

John elaborates on the historical context, highlighting the Reformation's impact on Protestantism's departure from Catholic priesthood authority. He points out that the restored gospel offers a "balance between the two," asserting that while salvation is through grace, priesthood ordinances are essential for entering into a covenant relationship with Christ (00:21).

The Role of the Book of Mormon in Bridging Denominational Gaps

The conversation shifts to the significance of the Book of Mormon in uniting differing Christian denominations. John shares an insight from Dr. Jan Martin, a renowned Reformation scholar, who posits that the Book of Mormon could "bridge William Tyndale and Thomas Moore," facilitating a meeting point between historical Protestant and Catholic figures through its teachings (04:46).

C reflects on Dr. Jared Halverson's acknowledgment of how the Book of Mormon serves as a pivotal scripture that not only introduced him to the Church but also continues to inspire and solidify faith among its members (03:06).

Missionary Work in the Modern Era: Adapting to Secular Challenges

As they navigate the intricacies of Section 84, the hosts discuss the evolving nature of missionary work, especially in a secularized world. John emphasizes the importance of adapting missionary approaches to resonate with individuals who may be resistant to traditional methods. He underscores the necessity of "receiving priesthood ordinances" over mere ordination, suggesting that the focus should be on engaging through meaningful ordinances rather than solely on office titles (10:32).

Dr. Jared Halverson and the hosts share anecdotes illustrating creative methods missionaries have employed, such as utilizing social media platforms during the COVID-19 pandemic to reach audiences when traditional face-to-face interactions were limited (15:10). They highlight the importance of "treasuring up the words of life," ensuring that missionaries are prepared to respond dynamically to diverse inquiries and situations (25:46).

Balancing Inclusivity and Covenantal Obligations

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the Abrahamic covenant's dual nature of "exclusivity and inclusivity." John articulates that while the covenant emphasizes a chosen lineage, it simultaneously extends blessings to "all the families of the earth," advocating for a universal approach to salvation and priesthood ordinances (16:00).

The conversation further explores the essential partnership between male and female roles within priesthood ordinances, stressing that eternal increase and celestial blessings "cannot happen without my other half" (09:40). This underscores the Church's belief in the complementary roles of men and women in fulfilling divine commandments and building Zion (09:40).

Engaging with Non-Members: Clarity and Compassion

When addressing how to interact with non-members or those distancing themselves from the Church, the hosts advocate for a balanced approach that combines clarity in teaching with deep compassion and understanding. C suggests using synonyms like "truth," "light," "spirit," and "Jesus" to communicate effectively without triggering resistance associated with more doctrinal terms (22:33).

John and Dr. Jared Halverson agree that missionaries should "pick whatever approach the person will be most open to," ensuring that the message resonates on a personal level. They emphasize the importance of "speaking clearly" while also being "understanding" to foster genuine connections and facilitate spiritual receptivity (22:43).

The Book of Mormon: A Catalyst for Personal and Communal Transformation

The hosts reflect on the Book of Mormon's profound influence on both personal growth and communal church dynamics. Dr. Jared Halverson cites a study showing a significant increase in Book of Mormon citations following President Benson's emphasis on the scripture, highlighting its role in strengthening testimonies and fostering deeper spiritual commitments (50:09).

John adds that the Book of Mormon serves as a "means to a higher end," focusing on transforming individuals into fully Christlike followers rather than merely emphasizing the book's doctrinal importance (52:01). This perspective reinforces the idea that the scripture is intended to cultivate "godliness" and prepare members for eternal blessings (52:01).

Concluding Reflections: Restoration and the Second Coming

As the episode progresses towards its conclusion, the hosts meditate on the restoration of God's people and the anticipation of the Second Coming. John highlights the assurance given in Section 84 that missionaries are under divine protection and guidance, reinforcing the Church's commitment to fulfilling prophetic mandates (80:04).

C and John conclude by affirming the collective hope and dedication to building Zion and spreading the gospel, emphasizing that their efforts are part of a larger divine plan aimed at uniting all of God's children in eternal harmony (78:33).

Notable Quotes

John: "It's still about godliness. Godliness cannot come without grace. But a channel of grace, a covenant of grace. That's what these ordinances are trying to accomplish." (00:21)
Dr. Jared Halverson: "The Lord is relentless in his pursuit of us. I just hope that we do. Ordinances are what connect us. If we can lean into that and live into that and invite the rest of the world into it as well, all will be well." (76:06)
C: "The power of Christ to counter all troubles in all times, including the end of times. Do either of you want to reject these things?" (54:25)

Conclusion

This episode of followHIM offers a comprehensive exploration of Doctrine and Covenants Section 84, delving deep into the nuances of priesthood authority, the indispensable role of ordinances, and the dynamic interplay between faith and works within the LDS Church. Through insightful dialogue and reflective anecdotes, Dr. Jared Halverson, along with hosts John and C, provide listeners with a rich understanding of how these doctrines not only shape personal spirituality but also guide the Church's missionary endeavors in an ever-evolving world.

Whether you're a longstanding member or new to the faith, this episode serves as an enlightening resource to deepen your appreciation for the restored gospel's foundations and its continuing mission to bring all of God's children into covenant with Him.

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Transcript

Dr. Jared Halverson (0:00)

Welcome Back to part two with Dr. Jared Halverson, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 84. How do we respond to our Protestant friends? We've grown up knowing about these ordinances, but some who look at that and say, ooh, that sounds like a work. That sounds like you're discounting the atonement of Christ. You think you have to do all this stuff.

John (0:21)

Well, in some ways you have to trace back. Why is that such a concern for Protestantism to think about the history of the Reformation, if you're cutting yourselves off from Catholicism? Martin Luther felt he had good reasons to do so. But as soon as you do that, you realize, wait, am I sawing off the branch that I'm sitting on? I'm not going to be connected to Catholic priesthood authority. What's my basis? Then you're going to have to come up with something different. In Protestantism's perspective, it was. Well, it's going to be a priesthood of all believers. Okay, where does that priesthood even come from? We cannot trace our line of authority back again. We see it in section 84. That's important. We see it in the Book of Ezra. That's essential for the ancient Israelites, this unbroken chain. Yet Protestant has to come up with an alternative for them. It's going to be a biblical authority. There's a reason where they say sola scriptura and sola fides and sola gracia. Only Scripture, only faith, only grace. It's because I can't lay claim to anything outside of those things. Because we have protested against and left Catholicism again. That's part of the beauty of the restored gospel, is there is this balance between the two. We are saved by grace, and God asks us to accept priesthood ordinances to be able to receive the kind of grace that this is, a channel of grace, a conduit of grace. That doesn't mean I'm cut off from grace without them, but in terms of entering into a covenant relationship with him, to put a ring on it, so to speak, to have an ordinance where I am covenant connected to Christ to show that I want to receive his grace. Receiving grace for grace, then progressing from grace to grace until I receive a fullness. There is so much here about grace and ordinances and faith and works and balancing the two that the restored gospel does. Again, if we're a hybrid of Catholicism, the best of Catholicism and the best of Protestantism, no wonder it's coming together in things like this. It's still about godliness. Godliness cannot come without grace. But a channel of grace A covenant of grace. That's what these ordinances are trying to accomplish.

Dr. Jared Halverson (2:29)

That's a good way to explain it. I'll leave it alone. I'm thinking of Jesus giving the Great Commission. Go ye into all the world. Preach the gospel to every creature and baptize them. Baptize them. I have a little book called Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? Have you guys heard of that book? He just goes through Christian history and he said, when did the altar call replace baptism? Where really all you do is walk up to the altar and say, I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. But what about baptism? Because he goes back to the Great Commission. That's a pretty good question.

John (4:46)

Everything from 7 to 30 is the first tangent. Then he goes on a very brief second tangent before he really starts hitting home what he's talking about with oath and covenant. But 31 therefore, as I said, concerning the sons of Moses. Oh yeah, that's where we got on. Then he starts to describe it. For the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord. Back to the temple. Which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed. If you read verses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 31 it makes a ton of sense because we're still talking about the temple. We're still talking about this spot that I've consecrated there in Jackson County. We're still trying to build Zion. Thank heaven for the tangent. I understand Aaronic ordinances and Melchizedek ordinances better. Now let's focus on what this priesthood is all about. 32 the sons of Moses Moses we saw during the tangent. There's Melchizedek and the ordinances of godliness that come from that. And of Aaron. There's the Aaronic ordinances and the justification that comes from that. The sons of Moses and of Aaron, Melchizedek, Aaronic, shall be filled with the glory of the Lord upon Mount Zion. Let's ground it in Zion Building the new Jerusalem in the Lord's house. Let's ground it in the temple. Whose sons are ye? That's absolutely essential to realize. Again, Malachi 3 who are these sons of Levi that are going to be purged? Well, sons of Levi, tribe of Levi. Oh, that's Moses and Aaron. If we are the sons and daughters of Moses and Aaron, if we have received ordinances through the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood, we are now part of that house, that tribe that we are now sons and daughters of Levi. We have been purified by our Aaronic and Melchizedek ordinances to be able to enter the house of the Lord and present to God this offering in righteousness which is the record of all of our debt. We have now restored God's people to a right understanding of who they are and whose they are. We have restored them to God. This is what this whole thing is all about. We promised we would do that. That's where we lead into this beautiful oath and covenant of the priesthood. From 33 for the next 10 verses or so. It's so beautiful to see what God has promised us through these ordinances, what we are promising him as we receive these ordinances ourselves. Sister Linda K. Burton when she was General Lee Society president, she was speaking at a BYU women's conference. Here's the generally cited president speaking to the women of the church. She challenges them to go memorize the oath and covenant of the priesthood. This is in that beautiful moment when President Oaks is giving priesthood talks to the Sisters of the Church about their priesthood. If you have authority, it has to be priesthood authority, because what other kind is there? Right after she challenged the sisters to memorize it, she said, by doing so, I promise you that the Holy Ghost will expand your understanding of the priesthood and inspire and uplift you in wonderful ways. To have these words running through the minds of our daughters, of our sisters, of our wives, of our mothers, because of their priesthood authority, their priesthood power. If this discussion of priesthood is in the context of the temple, think about the power and authority that God gives to his daughters and his sons in his house to fully restore us. I mean, the highest order of the priesthood is going to be patriarchal, which means it has to be matriarchal as well. That it has to be in the sealing ordinance. That's when the Abrahamic covenant fully is renewed upon us. I can't be Abraham until I find my Sarah. I can't. I cannot have eternal increase and the fullness of the priesthood and the highest degree of the celestial kingdom without my other half. It's Adam and Eve, It's Abraham and Sarah, it's Isaac and Rebecca. It's this combination to see daughters and sons together in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. This is so much broader than I think we sometimes boil it down to. As we tell a bunch of young men, this is something that's for you as it prepares you for higher priesthood ordination later. Those are side blessings. There's something bigger going on here. If this is line upon line, wait a decade and you've got the Relief Society being organized in Nauvoo after the order of the priesthood. There is no difference between male and female as far as receiving the ordinances of Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood in the Temple. Again, we see women officiating in the same way that men are officiating. We are being guided by heavenly parents to become people like them.

John (10:32)

Amen. That's what God promised from the start in premortality. The promise he made was, there will be a way for all of you to come home. There's going to be a fall. There's going to be a creation and a fall and an atonement. I promise all three. When you fall, there will be ways to come back up. There will be ordinances of justification and ordinances of sanctification. If we thought Moses sought diligently to sanctify his people, that's nothing compared to the Father's diligence in trying to sanctify us through the plan whereby he sends his Son. Here's this oath, this covenant that God has given from premortality on verse 33. For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining. These two priesthoods of which I have spoken and the magnifying their calling are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies. Think about being faithful to obtain. Now that's an interesting one. Are we obtaining priesthood office or obtaining priesthood ordinance? Could be either one. But in the context of so much emphasis on ordinances, that's where I would lean. Am I being faithful to obtain all of the blessings and ordinances that both Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood has to offer me? Am I seeking justification? Am I seeking sanctification? Am I being prepared through this preparatory gospel to then receive the fullness? Am I magnifying all of that that comes as a part of that? Is it sanctifying me through the Spirit? Is my body being renewed in that process? We've probably all had experiences with that. I see very aged general authorities and blown away by the renewal of their bodies that is happening before our eyes. But as a result of all that, 34, they become the sons of Moses and of Aaron. I would say the daughters of Moses and Aaron as well. Let's go back a few generations. They're the seed of Abraham and of Sarah. Therefore here they are grounded in priesthood ordinances, but also grounded in the Abrahamic covenant whereby all the families of the earth will be blessed. This is Zion. It's for everyone. We're trying to bring everybody home. Here's the seed of Abraham. It's the church. But more than that, it's the kingdom. Beyond that, it's the elect of God. I love these layered identities that are being described in verse 34 that we get to be a part of because we've been adopted into this family. Through the ordinances of salvation at baptism, I receive a new family identity. I've taken on Christ. Christ is my father and church is my mother. I'm part of this family. When I'm endowed, I'm given family identity, a family name and a family responsibility. When I'm sealed in the temple, I join the Abrahamic covenant. Abraham's and Sarah's side by side across the altar. It's incredible what's happening here. Then let's repeat and expand verse 35 also. All they who receive this priesthood, receiving its ordinances, receiving its blessings, receiving its guidance, if you'll receive that priesthood, they receive Me, saith the Lord. And then the dominoes keep falling. For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me. He that receiveth me receiveth my Father. He that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father's kingdom. Therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto them. This is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood. That's what it's for. It's what I promised to do when you accepted the plan in premortality. If the goal from the start was for the Father to give us all that he has. Wow. How's that even possible? He's seeking diligently to sanctify his people so that we can behold his face, enter his rest and stay there eternally. That is impossible on my own. No, Abraham will inherit any of that without Sarah by his side. The absolute need for not only the division of labor between Aaronic ordinances and Melchizedek ordinances, but the division of labor between mothers and fathers and wives and husbands and priests and priestesses, kings and queens. Again, temple is where we're seeing all of that laid out beautifully. The kind of priesthood that functions there is a closer approximation to the kind of celestial governance in our heavenly parents than what we see even at church. Temple is closer to heaven than church is. And the kind of officiating that we see in priesthood in the temple, that's closer to what we'll see in the model of heaven as well.

John (16:13)

Yeah. It's so radically inclusive that all the families of the earth have to be blessed by this. There's this interesting balance in the Abrahamic covenant between exclusivity and inclusivity. Because when he says, in thee and in thy seed. Ooh, careful, that's really exclusive in our post colonial age. That doesn't fly. Well, don't stop there then. In thee and in thy seed there's exclusivity. Shall all the families of the earth be blessed. There's radical inclusivity. Honestly, the moment we stop being inclusive is the moment God stops being exclusive in terms of choosing us. I mean, Elder Bednar's taught this beautifully. We choose God. That's what makes God choose us. But our job as chosen people is to choose everyone else to be chosen as well. So the moment we stop being a missionary church is the moment we stop being God's church. The moment we stop being a priesthood church that extends the blessings of priesthood ordinances to all of God's children, then that's the moment we're cut off from that priesthood as well. Here's his oath, here's his covenant. I'll bring everyone home. How am I going to do it? I'm going to send Moses and Aaron's and Miriams. I'm going to send people that will go and extend these blessings. The fact that men cannot perform saving ordinances in the temple for women lets us know that if it's only men and their priesthood ordination to office, then half of God's children aren't coming home. Which means the other half isn't coming home either. Since we can't come home independently without the other half. It's amazing the combination of both sides of this that we have to be Equally yoked and anxiously engaged in this work, or it's not going to work. None of those blessings come to me independent of my ceiling, to my wife. I need her as much as she needs me. I can't perform ordinances for women in the temple. I always laugh when you walk in and there's men on one side and women on the other. I'm holding my wife's hand as we're walking down the aisle. Then I say, well, I'll see you in the celestial kingdom. The temple makes it crystal clear if you're still separate, you're not in heaven yet. The only way to be together is in the celestial room. And if that's the plan, then no wonder. This oath God makes, this covenant that he makes, is meant to bring all of his children, daughters and sons together and as one. One with each other and one with him. I think Sister Burton was inspired to say, memorize this stuff. Have it floating through your mind as you connect doctrinal dots and you ponder principles, make these kinds of celestial connections. Am I magnifying my calling? Am I concentrating my effort on what it's meant to accomplish in the lives of those I'm called to serve? Am I obtaining all the promises God has given me? Am I seeking his mysteries and developing the power of godliness, receiving all of the blessings that he has in store? If we'll do that, it's only a matter of time where the Father can give us all that he has, which was his intention from the start, as.

John (26:03)

If we want to jump ahead, he's going to start broadening things now. We zoomed out. We were starting broad restoration of the people. Let's go Zion. Let's go Temple. Let's go Priesthood. Now let's start backing up a little bit. What kinds of things are we supposed to be learning, doing and teaching for other people? These are missionaries coming back from a mission to return and report. Well, it's only a matter of time. They need to go out and start serving some more. Let's give you some insight on how that can be done. To me, there's a powerful passage that starts in about verse 43. He says, I now give unto you a commandment to beware concerning yourselves, to give diligent heed to the words of eternal life. He says in 44, for you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God. We see that in other scriptures as well. Jesus taught that in his Mount of Temptations. But this is the moment where I want to pause and say, okay, fine, but what if you're trying to help somebody live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God that doesn't want any of those words? What do I do with my child who's struggling in their faith? What do I do with my loved one who's left the church? Every time I bring it up, they stiff arm the conversation and shut it down from the start. What do I do there? I remember talking with a group of chaplains. How do I explain truth to people in a secular world? Here I am in the military, I'm a chaplain, and I'm trying to share true principles from Bible or Book of Mormon, whatever they're open to. But in a secular military, some people aren't very open to much at all. I brought them to this passage because I've never seen a better place in Scripture. Lay out some possibilities of what do I do when I can't share the Gospel with somebody. I wish I would have understood this as a missionary. I'm grateful. I finally am starting to get it. Now what I love about this passage, if you look at verse 45, he starts giving you a bunch of synonyms in 43 and 44. It's you got to have the words of eternal life. We want straight out of the mouth of God. We're going to hit it to you right between the eyes. But what if somebody blocks that? It reminds me of someone who has a sickness. The doctor says, oh, well, you need this medication. He prescribes the medication. Then you're allergic to it. It's like, oh, great, what am I supposed to do? The very thing that's supposed to cure me is causing additional problems. What's my next option? The doctor will typically say, well, there are some other medications that attack the same problem, but go about it in a different way. Are there some alternatives? 45 gives us some beautiful alternatives. He says, for the word of the Lord, which is what he'd been saying, the last two verses is truth. Let's add truth to the mix. Maybe that's a little less scriptural and a little more broad. Whatsoever is truth is light. You guys a few weeks ago talked about light from a physics perspective. Maybe it's just the eyes are opening. I'm starting to see things a little bit more clearly. It's growing brighter and brighter as we approach the perfect day. Can I handle light? What about the next synonym? Whatsoever is light. Is spirit, even the spirit of Jesus Christ? When I look at verse 45 here, we've got five alternative medicines. Word, Truth, Light, Spirit and Jesus. Any one of those will do the same kind of good. It'll move people in the right direction. Now, if I'm talking to someone who's left the church or someone who's a secular humanist and is not really open to the missionary discussions, I'm probably not going to lead out with Jesus. I'm probably not going to lead out with word of the Lord. I mean, somebody's left the church, but they're still Christian. Okay, let's talk Jesus. Okay, if you're still holding on to Christ, beautiful, we can focus on him. If someone's open to scripture, great, we can do that. And I can build on common beliefs with my Bible believing brothers and sisters and go from there. But if Word sounds too scriptural, if Jesus sounds too churchy, what about truth, light and spirit? With spirit, for example? If even that sounds too religious, well, some people say, well, I'm spiritual, not religious. Great, then let's not talk religion. Let's just talk spirit. Because the one can lead to the other. They're beautifully mutually reinforcing. But what's least toxic in this list of synonyms, as I'm pondering this wayward child, or if I'M pondering this spouse that's left the church. I don't want to slam him with scripture. The Dukes come up. Well, now we're fighting over this. Instead, let's talk light and things that bring perspective into your life. Let's talk truth. That truth could come from other world religions. It could come from philosophy. It could come from movies and music. There's so much beautiful truth out there. When he says Spirit, there's a passage in Galatians 5, I bet we all quoted this on our missions, that the fruits of the Spirit are. And then he gives this beautiful list. It's love and it's joy and it's meekness and it's hope. All these beautiful things. But then, do you remember how Paul ends that verse? It's really interesting. He gives all these beautiful lists of the fruits of the Spirit. Then at the end he says, against which there is no law. And the end of that always confused me. Like, what does he even mean by that? But I realize people who want to make your religion illegal in their lives will never pass a law against love and goodness and kindness and hope. It's almost like I want to condemn religion. I don't want church in my life. But the fruits of the Spirit. Well, can we not call it spirit? That still seems too churchy. But being kind, being loving, being meek and being gentle, I'm not going to pass a law against that. Who on earth would do that against which there is no law? In some ways there's no defense. That's just something I'm open to and want it to be part of my life. For me, it's not a matter of how can I squeeze this scripture into the text I send my wayward child. Rather, how do I help them feel the spirit of God? Maybe I don't even call it the Spirit of God. How many steps removed do I need to be where it's safe for them and they put their dukes down? Am I just going to be truth in a book that they're reading that has nothing to do with religion? But boy, there is truth aplenty. I can build on that. 45 Is this beautiful first step of I've got all kinds of options. I can pick whichever approach the person will be most open to, whichever synonym they're least allergic to. Because then I'm going to count on verse 46 kicking it, which says that the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world, and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world that hearkened to the voice of the spirit. If I understand what 46 is telling me. Oh, wait a minute. There's this resonant frequency that everyone is wired to, tuned to. Every person who's ever lived has the light of Christ in their life. It's given to everyone that comes into the world. The spirit enlightens them, huh? In some ways. I've got all these alternate medications. I've got all these options I can use. Then I trust that there's something within that person that resonates with truth or with light or with spirit or with Jesus or with word, whatever. I use the tuning fork as the analogy where if somebody hits a tuning fork and then someone else on the other side of the room has a tuning fork that's tuned to the same pitch, it starts to vibrate, it hits resonant frequency. I don't even know how that happened, but that C sharp over there is really getting my C sharp going. There's this resonance. If I'm trying to share the gospel with somebody as a missionary or I'm trying to help a wayward child back into the faith, I'm thinking, number one, pick something that they're more open to, something less toxic. Bank on the fact that there's something good in them. They're a child of God. There will be a resonant frequency with whatever truth I'm offering. Then. Next verse. We're making progress here, but it's slow. Next verse 47. Everyone that hearkeneth to the voice of the spirit cometh unto God, even the Father. What that verse adds is that resonant frequency I have in me also acts as a homing beacon to bring me to the source of that frequency, which is God. Pick whatever they're most open to. And if they're open to the Jesus, one, hallelujah. But if they're not, can I find truth that they're open to and just strike the chord? If I'll be patient through this process, allow it to. To organically unfold. Then as they listen to that voice, as they heed that truth, as they are open to that light, they respond to it. As they feel the resonant frequency, it draws them in the direction of the source. That's God. They're coming unto the Father. We're still not done. But we haven't even touched the church yet. This has nothing to do with. Get them through the chapel doors. Like, slow down. Hold your horses. But if they're hearkening to the voice of the Spirit, this is like when we were kids. And we're playing that hotter, colder game. Getting hotter, getting hotter. It's like I'm feeling the resonance is stronger. There's more light here. There's more truth, there's more word, there's more joy, there's more rest. Pick whatever word it is. But as I come unto God, even the father, there's verse 47. Now verse 48 is the first time the church finally comes onto the scene. 48. And the Father Teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, you church members, you elders who have assembled. Which is confirmed upon you for your sakes. Yeah, it's helping you. But this is not self centered. That's just a side benefit. It's not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world. But be patient in the process. Sometimes we want to jump straight to 48 and say, you're supposed to be part of the church. You broke your covenants, you left. Did they even know what they were leaving? Had they had enough experience back in 45 with word and truth and light and spirit and Jesus? They weren't feeling light, they weren't feeling truth, they weren't feeling spirit. They're looking for it somewhere because they have a resonant frequency inside. They'll seek the source of that, wherever it might be. If we can help them tap back into the Father. I love it that it's the Father who does it in 48 because he knows them. He knows the right pace, he knows the right process. He does it in his way and according to his own will. It's interesting too, even to look at verse 49 and 50, that if that isn't working, it's because they're in bondage. It might be in the bondage to somebody else's sin. It might be in the bondage of my sin because I haven't been treating them the way I should at chur. And I'm the one getting in their way. Because when he says in 50, by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin because they come not unto me. It's like something's interfering with what is supposed to be a natural process that. Wait, it's not resonating with you. You're not coming unto God. Wow, maybe I need to go back to verse 45 and rethink these synonyms. Am I doing something to get in the way of their experience with light or truth or word or spirit or Jesus? If I can fix that in whatever I'm doing, if I can eliminate my own sin, if I can try to help them overcome theirs, then the natural process unfolds. My wife works in addiction recovery. Talk about the bondage of sin. Yet to see the goodness in these brothers and sisters that are wrestling for their lives physically as well as spiritually. It is so inspiring to hear my wife's stories of these incredible, valiant fighters to seek recovery and to stand recovery. It's only this bondage that's getting in the way. It's what Lincoln called the better angels of our nature. This passage suggests that we all have these beautiful angels of our nature. We need to tap into those better angels if we'll eliminate the kinds of things that interfere with it. The darkness that clouds the light, the noise that hushes the word, the falsehood that interferes with the truth, the Antichrists that get in the way of Jesus, whatever it might be any opposite to the synonyms in 45, that's what's going to be the obstacles that get in people's ways. But if we can help them overcome and eliminate that and stop being the obstacle ourselves that they need to overcome, then the natural process will bring them back into God's presence. To me, that it's beautiful.

John (44:53)

It's every year for five years we are doing this. Then five years later to the day, that's what blows me away. You had five visits throughout these years of preparation. Every time on September 22, now it's 1832. It's been five years to the day since you unearthed the Book of Mormon. This voice from the dust has now been collecting dust for the last five years. What are you doing, Joseph? What are you doing? Saints? This is a date that is drilled into Joseph's mind and heart because of his experiences. Man, talk about well timed correction and condemnation. Joseph, you and the Saints are supposed to be better. You've been treating it lightly. There's actually been A lot of interesting scholarship done about Book of Mormon reception history. And in the early Saints used it as an arrow, not a destination. But they felt the arrow pointed to Joseph. It was like, well, the book is true and Joseph was the prophet who revealed it. Joseph's a prophet. Well, now we can eliminate the middleman. This was such a biblical culture that the Saints grew up on the Bible. They ate, drink and slept, breathed the Bible. Then they see so much biblical resonance in the Book of Mormon, but it's a second witness. It's a new world scripture. It's pointing to the restoration of the gospel and this prophet that brought it forth so it served its purpose. The Book of Mormon introduced me to the Church and the prophet. And now I'm going to be part of the Church and I'm going to follow the prophet and I'm going to put the Book of Mormon back on the shelf. I'm just going to stick back with the Bible. That was an interesting problem. There were some beautiful exceptions to the rule. Joseph Smith taught from the Book of Mormon powerfully. You get a Parley P. Pratt, who has that famous, I'm not hungry, I'm not tired. I'm just feasting upon the word. Then you look at Parley's kids. He named so many of them Book of Mormon names. There's a Teancum Pratt. There's an Abish Pratt. Parley loved the Book of Mormon. Awesome. You have these handful of Saints that were Book of Mormon converts and held to the Book of Mormon from that point on. But honestly, most early Saints, thankful now it's brought me to the Church and I'm good to go here. The Lord is like, do you guys know what you're missing? Actually, you don't, because you've treated it lightly and you've allowed the voice from the dust to recollect dust until you dust it off permanently and talk about it more and live by it more and bring forth fruits, meet for the Father's kingdom, which is what the Book of Mormon is going to inspire you to do. Then you're still under condemnation. The three of us are old enough to remember the Ezra Taft Benson days. I joke that when people ask me, who's your favorite Book of Mormon prophet, I'll often say, Ezra Taft Benson ranks up there right alongside Captain Moroni or King Benjamin or Abinadi, because he's the one that convinced me to study the Book of Mormon like I'd never studied it before. As a teenager growing up in the Benson years, it almost became a joke. That, like, here comes General Conference. President Benson's taking the stand. And we're all, I wonder what he's going to talk about. Because we knew it was going to be the Book of Mormon. Every single time. I laughed one conference when he stood up and he said, today I'm going to speak about. And we're like, wait for it. Book of Mormon. We know it. He's all, the Doctrine and Covenants. We're like, whoa, he's going to teach the Doctrine and Covenants. But then he says, and it's witness of the Book of Mormon. We're like, oh, okay, we see what you did there. But it's still Book of Mormon. And it seems like every once in a while he'd get up, quote this exact passage in section 84, say, the church is under condemnation for treating lightly the Book of Mormon. I mean, seminary and institute didn't start teaching the Book of Mormon until very late in the game. The Lord's up there pulling out hair, going, do you have any idea what you're missing? Again, President Benson, the Church is under condemnation collectively, the entire children of Zion. There's no exceptions to this. We need to study the Book of Mormon. We need to preach the Book of Mormon. We need to flood the earth with the Book of Mormon. We need Book of Mormon art, Book of Mormon music, Book of Mormon poetry and sermons. We need to be immersed in this. We would try. We'd read more and we'd study more. Then six months later, President Benson would get back up and he said, thank you for all your work with the Book of Mormon. We're still under condemnation for treating it like we're like, oh, okay, we haven't done enough yet. I remember growing up through that, he changed the trajectory of the church by grounding it in the Book of Mormon in ways that no prior prophet had except Joseph Smith. Probably just like President Nelson is grounding the Church in the Gathering of Israel and the Abrahamic Covenant in ways that no prophet has since Joseph Smith did at the beginning. To me, the power of the Book of Mormon, what timing, what power, what a message the Lord is sending here that if you really want to tap into God's power and his voice and his will, there's no place to see it quite like the Book of Mormon. I'm curious from you guys again, if we can channel our Benson years, what effect did it have on you guys? Jared?

John (61:13)

Well, I'm off the hook. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Keep reading. Second line. Treasure up continually the words of life. Make sure it's in there somewhere. Then the Spirit will have something to draw upon to bring back to your remembrance. I'm blown away by how many experiences I had in the mission field where I'm in a situation, somebody asks a question, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do. I get this little nudge. Open your mouth and it shall be filled. Like with what? My foot? I don't know what I'm going to say. Trust me, you've treasured up the words of life. You've studied a lot of this. I'll bring it to your remembrance. But just start. So many different experiences as a punk 1920 year old that then led me into what I've done the rest of my career. When I was in Tennessee, nobody cared that I was the CES coordinator. They didn't care I was the institute director. They just saw, wait, there's a PhD student that's LDS at Vanderbilt. That's our university. We'll honor that. I got so many invitations from Disciples of Christ, the Episcopalians and the Catholics, Presbyterians. Please come. We trust Vanderbilt. We don't know you, but we trust your school. Come and explain your church to us so that we can kind of be familiar with what kinds of stuff Mitt Romney believes in. What I would typically do was, okay, I'll take maybe 15 minutes and explain some basics and then I want to open it up to Q and A. Yeah, I want to know what these people want to know what the questions I already have. I will assure them when I get there. You can ask anything you want. It's all on the table. Nothing's Going to hurt my feelings. Thankfully, I learned as a missionary that D&C8485 is gospel truth. If you'll put yourself out there and exercise faith, it will be given you in the very moment that portion that shall be meted to every man. I found myself saying things to these congregations that I'd never thought before, Connections that were being drawn. I don't know about you guys, but honestly, even podcasting has been so interesting. Where I'll be filming, then I'm. I'm video editing and I'm watching myself teach, and I'm sitting there watching to, you know, fix the mistakes and correct things, whatever, but I'm sitting there watching myself going, wow, I think that's true. I never thought of that before. What do you mean you never thought of it? That's you talking. I'm like, well, yeah, but it wasn't in my notes. I'd never thought that before. And it was just that moment of, someone out there needs this. I wasn't prepared to give it to them. But thankfully, I'd at least treasured up the words of life so that the Lord had something to work with. Then all of a sudden, in the very moment a line was drawn, dots were connected. I heard myself say things that I'd never heard somebody say to me. I'm learning. It's the weirdest thing. We know it to learn from yourself, but that's one of the ways that you know that you're teaching by the spirit. You're learning things you didn't already know. Session 84, verse 85 was what gave me the initial courage. Like, okay, I guess we're doing this then enough times with the Lord coming through and honoring that promise. Now it's, I meet with people that hate the church and are leaving the faith and, okay, what's your question? Let's just dig in. I'm excited to see what the Lord gives us all.

John (66:22)

Should we sing for a moment? Because by the end of this portion, there's this beautiful hymn of praise. I wish we had the music. We've got the lyrics. I'm waiting for someone with a talent to be able to write the tune. In verse 98, he says, until all shall know me who remain even from the least unto the greatest, and shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, and shall see eye to eye, and shall lift up their voice, and with the voice together sing this new song, saying, then verse 99, 102 is the song. It's beautiful. Sometimes what we miss in verse 98 is he's quoting Isaiah 52 right there. Isaiah 52 is what Abinadi quoted. It's what Jesus quoted. It's how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those who publish peace. It's this passage that runs like this golden thread throughout the Book of Mormon. We just want the world to know the Prince of Peace. When we finally know him, we will sing out together this beautiful new song, the way it's described in verse 99. The Lord hath brought again Zion. It's how this revelation began. It's what we're trying to build. The Lord hath redeemed his people Israel. We've finally been restored to a right relationship with him. There's this Abrahamic covenant, the oath and covenant of the priesthood. It's all being fulfilled the way the lord intended in 100. The Lord hath redeemed his people and Satan is bound and time is no longer. Are we getting a sense of the second coming? The Lord hath gathered all things in one, which is the mission of this final dispensation according to the Book of Ephesians, that we'll gather together in one all things in Christ. All truth, all light, all spirit, all word, all Jesus. The Lord hath brought down Zion from above. The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath. There's Zion from below meeting Zion from above. The city of Enoch meeting the new Jerusalem. It's glorious what we're singing about in 101. The earth hath travailed and brought forth her strength and truth is established in her bowels. And the heavens have smiled upon her. In a revelation about the Book of Mormon. And this voice from the dust, here's the earth bringing it forth out of her bowels. I mean, giving birth to scripture. That's going to change the world. Heaven smiling down upon all of this. She is clothed with the glory of her God. To be clothed, to be covered, to be endowed. That's the word. Endowment is a clothing of power from on high. He stands in the midst of his people. Their second coming. Christ coming suddenly to his temple, as Malachi promised would happen. Verse 102. Glory and honor and power and might be ascribed to our God, for he is full of mercy, justice, grace and truth and peace forever and ever. Amen. It's like the Lord's Prayer. I just want to sing it alongside Andrea Bocelli. How can I keep from singing? This is second Coming. This is Zion. If there's a national anthem there in the kingdom of God, maybe. Are these the lyrics?

John (69:54)

Farmer. I think the Lord is taking his own advice with all of us because after that's done that. Amen. They put the pen down. This is like the pause, like wow. It's like 2am We've been recording this revelation from the 22nd to the 23rd. Let's pause it here. It's right there that there's a break in the manuscripts. Then they come back sometime later on the 23rd and get the last 17 or 18 verses. That starts in 103. If I could just point out maybe just a few last things. This is more linguistic, this is semantic. But the way the Lord phrases a couple of things have given me pause to ponder one's in verse 112, where there's some direction given to Bishop Newell K. Whitney. He's told to travel roundabout and among all the churches searching after the poor to administer to their wants by humbling the rich and the proud. This goes back to so much of what the Doctrine and Covenants has taught about consecration, rich and poor reaching across those aisles. But the phrase that struck me was searching after. Because I think often we are responsive to people's needs, but maybe not proactive in searching for the people that are in need to begin with, especially LDS culture, we have a really hard time asking for help. We're independent to a fault because our pioneer ancestors raised us that way. I'm not going to ask for help. I'm just going to pull myself up by my bootstraps. I love that the bishop is told, go search. Don't just respond to the ones who come. Go out and find them. I feel that way strongly with people that I work with that are in faith crisis. It's not enough to just wait for them to come. I need to search after. I need to contact trace. I need to go out and let people know that I'm willing to have conversations. You won't be judged. I just hope that we can be far more proactive than we've been, instead of just reactive when somebody comes with a need. Because often by the time that happens, the real help was needed a long time before. So that's one I just have us wrestle with. The other also is an approach that we as missionaries or as members could take a little bit better. The ending of this revelation is pretty intense, especially if you live in New York or Albany or Boston. There's some strong language about destruction. If we're talking Second Coming and New Jerusalem, well, before we get to Adam on Diamond, we have to pass through Armageddon. That's some scary stuff. If we're thinking of this in a Second Coming context. Thinking of the end of the world and the abomination of desolations that Ezekiel talked about and that Jesus talked about in Matthew 24. Section 84 ends with that kind of apocalyptic caution. But he says something that I find fascinating in verse 117. I'll just read it. Verily, I say, the rest of my servants, go ye forth as your circumstances shall permit in your several callings unto the great and notable cities and villages. But here's part of your mission call, reproving the world in righteousness of all their unrighteous and ungodly deeds. Now that's a rough one. We're Crying repentance. We're calling them out for the mistakes they've made. But then notice the adverbs. We've got some tough verbs there. We're reproving the world, but we have to set forth. Here's the first adverb. Clearly, let's make sure they get it. Then the next adverb and understandingly the desolation of abomination in the last days. There's that Ezekiel and Matthew 24 phrase a desolation that's abominable or abomination that's so bad that it's desolating. These are things that Jesus warned the saints in his day about with the coming of the Roman legions in 70 AD and the destruction of the temple preview of coming destructions as far as the end times and the last days are concern before the coming of Christ. In other words, cry repentance because people need to know the consequences of their sins. Part of what we're going to have to do is lay out those consequences. They get that the desolation of abominations is on its way. But the adverbs are so striking to me. We have to do it clearly and understandingly. And I think the first. I don't know, 30 years I read that verse. I thought the Lord was being redundant by telling us to be clear and make sure that they understand. More recently I've noticed no, those are very different things. He didn't say clearly and understandably that would be redundant. He said clearly and understandingly. If I am clear, they understand me. They. But if I'm understanding, then I understand them. I think one of the hardest things about being a missionary or crying repentance is we want to be so crystal clear that we're just going to lay it out. This is what's going to happen and this is the consequences. Err on the side of clarity. We struggle with being sufficiently understanding where we try to understand where somebody's coming from. We hear their side of the story. We try to make sense of why they're struggling in certain areas or why they've left the church and why their word and Jesus are toxic. But maybe truth and light, maybe I'll be open to. I worry sometimes. Am I so focused on being clear that I'm not as understanding as I need to be. To me there's this beautiful contrary being balanced here. It's like when Paul says to the Ephesians speaking the truth in love. That's a tough combination. Some of us are really good at speaking truth. We don't do it lovingly. Others of us are really good at speaking in love, but we shy away from truth because it's going to hurt feelings and rustle feathers here. To speak clearly, they're speaking the truth. To do it understandingly, there's to do it in love. I just hope that we can do a little bit better at that, especially when we're crying. Repentance.