followHIM Podcast: Doctrine & Covenants 98-101, Part 2
Guests: Dr. Derek Sainsbury
Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway
Date: September 3, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Hank and John are joined by Dr. Derek Sainsbury to continue their deep dive into Doctrine and Covenants sections 98–101. The conversation explores the historical context and intense suffering of the Latter-day Saints in Missouri, examines the revelations' doctrines about enduring trials, agency, and sanctification, and offers both scriptural and personal insights into finding hope and meaning amid persecution and adversity. The discussion is both scholarly and vulnerable, blending historical narrative, doctrinal analysis, and honest personal experience to help listeners relate these revelations to modern struggles.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical Background: Missouri Persecutions (00:08–03:00)

• The Saints face violent mob attacks in Jackson County with no hope for legal recourse. Hostility from state officials, including Lieutenant Governor Lilburn Boggs, escalates (00:08).
  • Quote (Hank): “The sitting Lieutenant governor, Lilburn Boggs... exclaims with satisfaction, Mormons are the common enemies of mankind and ought to be destroyed.” (00:08)
• Dr. Sainsbury and John recount the traumatizing effect this had on both adults and children in the Church—paranoia, fear, regular mob attacks, and exile (01:26–04:00).

2. Section 98: Suffering, Patience, and God’s Promises (05:57–12:30)

• Section 98 comes as a revelation to Kirtland Saints, yet with resonance for those suffering in Missouri (05:57).
• The Lord asks the Saints to "fear not," “rejoice evermore,” and patiently wait. All will work together for their good (05:57–06:36).
  • Quote (Scripture, read by Dr. Sainsbury): “Fear not. Let your hearts be comforted. Yea, rejoice evermore and in everything give thanks, waiting patiently on the Lord...” (05:57)
• Hank and John note how counterintuitive this counsel feels in the face of real harm. Honest acknowledgment that this isn’t the answer most would wish for (07:01).
  • Quote (Hank): “That’s just not the answer I want. I want the Lord saying, you are right. These are terrible people. Let’s go take care of them together.” (07:01)
• The Lord’s approach centers on trusting in His long-term plan and being sanctified through adversity. Reference is made to similar promises in Romans 8:28 and D&C 122:7 (10:16).

3. Theology of Suffering (12:30–17:37)

• Dr. Sainsbury highlights Francine Russell Bennion’s “Theology of Suffering” talk, emphasizing that becoming like God means learning from suffering, not escaping it (11:52).
  • Quote (Dr. Sainsbury, paraphrasing Bennion): “In wanting to get to the celestial kingdom, students had more awareness of struggle-free utopias than of our own God and our own world... The celestial kingdom was a place to get away from suffering, not a place to understand it.” (13:21)
• Suffering is not passive—there’s empowerment in the Lord’s instructions: forsake evil, cleave to good, learn line upon line, abide in covenant, turn hearts, seek peace, forgive, proclaim the gospel, stand in holy places, and more (17:37–21:15).
  • Quote (Hank): “The Lord can tell us to do those things, because that’s what he did.” (21:35)

4. Christ as the Model for Enduring Suffering (21:35–25:47)

• The Savior's Atonement is the template for facing and transforming suffering. Christ, who “descended below them all,” did not want to suffer but chose to do so for others (21:59–25:47).
  • Quote (Dr. Sainsbury): “Everything about the Gospel is following the example of Jesus Christ—to, in a sense, end up in the same place, the same nature that he has...” (25:20)

5. Insights from Church Leaders

• Elder Richard G. Scott’s “Trust in the Lord” talk is cited: growth comes “step by step,” and suffering continues “while you are passing through each phase,” but God’s love is sure and only allows necessary trials (25:47–27:22).
  • Quote (Elder Scott, read by Hank): “Your Father in heaven and his beloved Son love you perfectly. They would not require you to experience a moment more of difficulty than is absolutely needed for your personal benefit or for that of those you love.” (26:37)

6. Community, Empathy, and God’s Intimacy (27:22–31:02)

• Hank and John reflect on the healing shared when we recognize others’ struggles as our own, and the power in knowing that the Lord regards us as “my friends”—a term of intimacy and covenant (10:50, 31:02).

7. Section 100: Comfort in Uncertainty (31:02–36:01)

• Revelations assure Joseph and Sidney that their families are safe—an answer only God could give in an age of slow communication (34:45).
• The principle emerges: “They are in my hands, and I will do with them as seemeth me good. For in me is all power” (34:45–36:01).
• John emphasizes that God has acted for every person’s good throughout history, giving all “every opportunity possible to progress, to choose what they want to be” (36:31).

8. Historical Accounts: Fleeing, Violence, and Miracles (39:26–53:41)

• Dr. Sainsbury shares harrowing accounts of the Saints being violently expelled from Missouri, families torn apart, and miraculous healings amid chaos.
  • Quote (Eyewitness, paraphrased): “I saw 190 women and children driven 30 miles across the prairie... I could easily follow on their trail by the blood that flowed from their lacerated feet.” (41:53)
• W.W. Phelps: “Blessed are ye when you are hated of all men for mine’s sake. I think we have come to that.” (46:29)
• Dr. Sainsbury shares his own personal experience with trauma, faith-shaking adversity, and “fireflies”—moments of hope and help amid depressive darkness (47:53–56:06).
  • Quote (Dr. Sainsbury): “I gave you what you needed, not what you wanted... I will always send fireflies to show you which way to go and give you hope until the light comes back.” (54:45)

9. Section 101: Chastening, Promises, and Millennial Hope (57:53–66:50)

• The Lord reframes the Saints’ ordeal: “I, the Lord, have suffered (allowed) this affliction... in consequence of their transgressions. Yet... I will own them... and they shall be mine in that day when I... make up my jewels.” (57:53–59:05)
• Hank and John stress the duality of God’s nature—love and expectations, mercy and sanctifying correction (59:05–59:47).
  • Quote (John): “Notwithstanding their sins, my bowels are filled with compassion towards them. I will not utterly cast them off. And in the day of wrath, I will remember mercy. That’s just again speaks to the character of who Christ is.” (59:47)
• Promise of future knowledge and restoration: “One day I’m going to tell you everything... All things... things which have passed, hidden things which no man knew...” (61:01–62:32)
• President Nelson’s teaching: “Joy we feel has little to do with the circumstances of our lives and everything to do with the focus of our lives...” (62:51)
• Personal growth through suffering: “One thing that gives me hope in suffering is, is that the Lord is making something of you. And you will like the person you become if you keep choosing Him.” (65:49–66:50)

10. Closure & Witness: Future Restorations and Redeemed Joy (66:50–74:54)

• Even the final tragedies (cholera, deaths) are framed in hope: all losses will be made up in the resurrection if we remain faithful (66:50).
• Dr. Sainsbury testifies to becoming more like Christ through such experiences: “Because he is risen, all things will be made up to us... This, too, will give us experience. The experience is to learn to become like him.” (74:34)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On responding to suffering:
  “Bear it patiently and revile not, neither seek revenge. Receive the Lord. Continue proclaiming my gospel...”
  —John (18:41)

• On God’s empathy:
  “I love that he says, my friends... There’s this intimacy about it, that you are my friends. I see you, I hear you...”
  —John (10:50)

• On following Christ’s template:
  “We worship—the central thing of our worship is a man who had everything wrong happen to him by doing everything right.”
  —Dr. Sainsbury (25:41)

• Personal story—‘fireflies’ as hope in the darkest times:
  “I will always send fireflies to show you which way to go and give you hope until the light comes back.”
  —Dr. Sainsbury (54:45)

• On God’s ultimate restoration:
  “All losses, as Joseph Smith taught, will be made up to us in the resurrection, provided we continue faithful by the visions of the Almighty. I’ve seen it, John.”
  —Dr. Sainsbury (69:09)

Important Timestamps

• 00:08 – Missouri Saints’ context & political hostility
• 01:26 – Child trauma & the mob’s impact
• 05:57 – Section 98: instructions for facing trials
• 11:52 – Theology of suffering (Bennion talk)
• 18:41 – Lord’s actionable instructions in suffering
• 21:35 – Christ’s example as template for response
• 25:47 – Elder Scott’s “Trust in the Lord” counsel
• 34:45 – Section 100: “They are in my hands”
• 39:26 – Violent Exodus, eyewitness accounts
• 47:53 – Dr. Sainsbury’s personal story of mental health and faith
• 54:45 – The “fireflies” analogy
• 57:53 – Section 101: Chastening and hope
• 61:01 – Expectation of future revelation and understanding
• 62:51 – President Nelson on joy and suffering
• 66:50 – Cholera, loss, and the promise of restoration
• 74:34 – Dr. Sainsbury’s testimony and lessons learned

Themes Recurring Throughout

• Sanctification through Suffering: The doctrine that lasting growth—individually and collectively—requires experiencing trials and learning from them.
• Agency and Redemption: God's respect for agency even allows for evil, but He redeems suffering for ultimate good.
• Christ's Compassion and Expectations: The Lord is both loving and demanding, wishing to own us as His “jewels” but determined to mold us through chastening.
• Joy in Adversity: True joy is possible despite external circumstances if our focus is on Christ.
• Personal Application: Historical events—and personal stories—teach that "be still and know that I am God" is not a platitude but an encompassing principle for enduring the inexplicable.

Final Takeaway

This rich, honest episode presents both the agony and the hope of Zion’s early Saints. Through history, doctrine, and personal testimony, listeners are urged to trust God’s long view, to “let your hearts be comforted,” and to look for the “fireflies”—signs of hope and guidance—until joy returns.

For Further Study

• Francine Russell Bennion, “A Theology of Suffering” (BYU Women’s Conference, 1986)
• Elder Richard G. Scott, “Trust in the Lord” (Gen. Conf. 1995)
• President Russell M. Nelson, “Joy and Spiritual Survival” (Gen. Conf. 2016)

Find links to references and the transcript at followhim.co.