Hank Smith (3:55)

Wickedness never was happiness. I love it. I'm excited for this. BJ I've noticed that Moroni as an author is, I think, attempting to do what his father did, which is abridge a history and draw out principles. But you can tell they're different. You can tell these are two different people. So I'm excited to watch how Moroni does this and maybe think of how did Mormon do it and how does Moroni do it differently? John BJ is new to our show, so I think he needs a John. By the way, introduction.

John Bytheway (4:29)

Yep, hotly printed off my laser printer. BJ Allen. He's an associate professor of marketing at Brigham Young University. He received a Bachelor's degree from BYU and a PhD in business administration from the University of Texas, San Antonio, and his research areas are in marketing strategy, professional selling, and new product innovation. He's the author of two textbooks and gives sales and marketing trainings to corporations. I wanted people to know. He's the author of a new book called the Compensating Power of Christ. I've got mine right here, which is about how the Savior makes right the unfairness of life and compensates for our personal weaknesses. He lives in Provo. He and his wife Angie have six children. He's a sports enthusiast Most weekends you'll find him driving his family around in his awesome minivan. I remember those days. Thank you for Joining us today, Dr. Allen, welcome.

Dr. BJ Allen (5:28)

Yes, thank you. I'm super excited to be here. I'm actually really excited to talk about these chapters in Ether because I have a fun family connection. If I can share for a second to these chapters. There's a man in early church history. His name's Reynolds Cahoon Reynolds is actually my fifth great grandpa. Those of you may not be familiar. Reynolds is one of Joseph's earliest friends during the Restoration and he was mission companion to Samuel Smith. And he gave Joseph Smith some paper to finish the translation of the Book of Mormon. He had a son. So Reynolds had a son and he asked Joseph to come bless and name the baby. And Joseph named the baby Mahonri Moryankamer. This is what it says in church history. When he, being Joseph had finished the blessing, he laid the child on the bed and turning to Elder Colquhoun, said, the name which I have given your son is the name of the brother of Jared. The Lord has just shown it to me. We have a Mahanrei Mauryankumur Kahun in the family. I grew up all the time learning about him and my family history. So it is really fun to be talking about the real Mahan Rai Moriyankomer today.

Hank Smith (6:35)

That's fantastic.

John Bytheway (6:37)

I don't know why, but nobody ever asked him to give a blessing again. I'm just kidding. I don't really know if that's true. I don't think it is. His name is what? Can you spell that out for me?

Hank Smith (6:47)

There was another couple there and they turned around and walked out with their baby. No thanks. We'll go somewhere else.

John Bytheway (6:56)

Hey, Hiram, do you want to bless this? Yeah, that's funny.

Hank Smith (7:01)

Bj, I am going to read from the Come follow me manual. And then this is John and I's favorite part. We turn the reins over to you and we get to learn. It says, hundreds of years after the Jaredites were destroyed, the Nephites discovered the ruins of an ancient civilization. Among these ruins was a mysterious record. Plates of pure gold that were filled with engravings and the Nephites were desirous beyond measure to read it. Today you have an abridgment of this record and it's called the Book of Ether. When the Nephites read it, they were filled with sorrow to learn of the tragic fall of the Jaredites. Nevertheless, it gave them much knowledge in which they did rejoice. This is all from The Book of Mosiah. You too may find sorrowful moments in this book, but you can also rejoice in this gift of knowledge. As Moroni wrote, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have no power over the hearts of the children of men. Man, these summaries are powerful. So, BJ with that, John and I are ready to learn.

Dr. BJ Allen (8:01)

All right, let's give the viewer some background and some context to what's happened before this chapter. In chapter six, we're coming back to the Brother Jared's story. After a couple of chapter breaks where Moroni inserts his teachings, we'll actually see that this is a theme in both Moroni and Mormon's writings where they stop writing for a little bit and they give us a little bit of an insertion of gospel principles. And I like to think that those principles were sparked by something that they wrote in that story. With that, when I read the Book of Mormon chapters, I like to have a lens by which I'm trying to interpret the story. And one of the lenses I love is to ask myself, what gospel subjects did Mormon or Moroni teach after this story? What are some maybe things that sparked their interest or gospel principles that they thought about? In other words, along with asking, what can I get out of it? I like asking, what did Moroni get out of it?

Hank Smith (9:05)

That's great. It's those thus we see moments. Maybe there's more than that because they don't just say thus we see. I like what you're saying here, that when we pause and Moroni says, can I say something? It's probably from what he just read.

Dr. BJ Allen (9:18)

Yeah, exactly. What gospel principles did Moroni learn from the story? For example, ether 4 and 5, we get an insertion from Moroni about the coming of Christ, faith, repentance, the three witnesses, the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Then we would read Ether one through three with that lens. What we are going to do, at least here at the beginning of ether, we are going to read beginning of ether and then we will continue on ES 6 11. We are going to look at it through the lens of what Moroni talks about in ether 12. Ether 12 is Moroni's doctrinal commentary where we learn about faith and hope and charity. And then we get the Beautiful verse in Ether 12:27 about how his grace is sufficient for our weakness. Let's keep that lens in mind. Faith, hope, charity, and how his grace is sufficient. Let's start here in Ether six. We're going to go verses two through three. And it came to pass after the Lord had prepared the stones which the brother Jared had carried up into the Mount, the brother of Jared came down out of the Mount, and he put the stones into the vessels which were prepared, one each end thereof. And behold, they did give light unto the vessels. And thus the Lord caused stones to shine in darkness, to give light unto men, women and children that they might not cross the great waters in darkness. Right off the bat here in ether 6 we have this beautiful illustration of Christ's power to me. This is such a salient example of what Moroni teaches in Ether 12:27, which reads, My grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me. For if they humble themselves before me and have faith in me, then will I make weak things strong unto them. This story we get the brother Jared. He's trying to figure out how he's going to fill these boats with light. Christ compensates for the weaknesses of the brother Jared and makes its efforts sufficient. It's the brother of Jared's idea, but God does all the work. God's the one that touches the stones. He's the one that makes them shine. The brother of Jared did the best he could, but he's weak, just like all of us. We're not sufficient on our own. And this is even the way that the brother of Jared approaches the situation in Ether three, right? He says, hey, don't be angry with your servant because of my weaknesses. This is the best I could do. Can you touch these stones and can you make them light?

Hank Smith (11:57)

Here's my idea. Please light it up.

Dr. BJ Allen (11:59)

Yes, exactly. Here's my idea. This is the best I could do. Will you please make my efforts sufficient? This is the very core of what the atonement is meant to do. It's almost as if Moroni is trying to point this out in verse three, because he says, the Lord caused the stones to shine in darkness. Like, it wasn't the brother of Jared, it wasn't anyone else. It was the Lord. The brother of Jared comes to the Lord with his weaknesses, but Christ is the one who makes his efforts sufficient. It's such a beautiful example of the way that Christ can compensate us in our life. I think it's worth pointing out here in the story that at least we never see a point in which God's mad at the brother of Jared for not knowing how to give light. He doesn't say, really, this is the best you could do in a few Thousand years, they're actually going to vent electricity. This really isn't that hard. Jesus is not a reluctant messiah here. He's not looking for ways to be angry at the brother of Jared. He's not looking to say, oh really, this isn't really that great of idea. I'm going to do most of the work. He understands the brother of Jared is doing the best that he can. There's been this quote from Richard G. Scott that I've always loved where he said, the Lord sees weaknesses different than he does rebellion. Whereas the Lord warns that unrepentant rebellion will bring punishment. When the Lord speaks of weakness, it is always with mercy. Our weaknesses become an opportunity to use the grace of Christ. I love the similarity between Ether 12, 27 and in 2 Corinthians where Paul says, speaking of Christ, my grace is sufficient for thee. My strength is made perfect in weakness. For me, this used to be a really hard principle to understand because me personally, I used to struggle with self doubt. I used to feel like my own weaknesses made me unfit for God's grace. Maybe if I reached some level of goodness, then God can come into my life. And this principle has been a lot easier for me to adopt. As I've had kids. I think of the C.S. lewis quote that God is easy to please but hard to satisfy. I love my kids. They have a long ways to go to reach to their potential. But I appreciate all that they do and I appreciate all that they are. I understand that sometimes their efforts aren't what I want them to be, but they're doing their best. He's always compensating us to make our efforts sufficient for the miracles that we seek. Now I think that's such a cool story to start off with in light of that lens of, well, what does Morani pull from the story and what does he teach after?

Hank Smith (14:44)

That's fantastic. John, help me out here. Joseph Smith said, he can't properly worship God until you know who he is.

John Bytheway (14:52)

What kind of being he is.

Hank Smith (14:53)

Yeah, yeah. And we get a glimpse of that in the story of the brother of Jared that like BJ said, he's kind. He's not looking for ways to hurt me, he's looking for ways to help me.

John Bytheway (15:05)

We need that reminder constantly. I love that the first vision verified there is a God, but that was just the beginning. What kind of being is he? Oh, then these things start to come out and we have to be reminded of it because sometimes, like you said, B.J. or maybe he's mad at me because of my weakness. I just loved Elder Ciaran's talk about the motorcycle cop that was turning people away. And now he said, God's plan is not a plan to keep you out. It's a plan to bring you home. One more reminder. What is God really like? Is he delighting to punish and turn us away? Of course not. When I see those, I think, yeah, we need that reminder over and over. It's easy to get the wrong idea about what kind of being God is. And the more we have a right idea, like you said, Hank, the more faith and hope we can have in him.

Dr. BJ Allen (15:58)

And it changes our viewpoint to focus less on ourselves and more on the Savior. We stop worrying about everything we're not and start thinking about what the Savior can make us. For example, I once counseled the missionary who was in the field and was trying to decide if he should come home. The root of it was that he didn't feel good enough. All of the talk from mission leaders about what a missionary should be just told him that, well, I don't measure up. As I talked to him, it became evident that he was so focused on everything he wasn't. He had lost focus on who Christ was. I counseled him that, like, God's not angry with you, that you're not a perfect missionary and stop worrying about everything that you're not and start focusing on what Christ can make you. He called you here. His grace is sufficient for you, and he's going to make you who you need to be as you turn to him. Similarly, like when I counsel people who are going through a faith crisis and they talk about their doubts, it's almost as if they feel like because they have doubts, they don't really believe. Like, oh, like used to believe, but now I'm starting to question this. And if there is a God, he must be mad at me because I don't even know if he's there or not. I think it's the opposite. Doubts are not a result of weak faith. They're a result of growing faith. The role of Jesus Christ is to help us to become better. It's like the brother of Jared. I mean, if you read the story, he comes to the Lord and he says, look, I know I'm weak, but this is the best I can do. Can you touch these stones and make them glow? God does that. This was a quote from president Nelson a few conferences ago. He said, he, being Jesus, took upon himself your weaknesses. He paid the compensatory price and provided the power for you to move every mountain you will ever face, that price has been paid. And Jesus wants to help you. He wants to light your stones. Even if that's the best idea you can come up with. He wants to help you.

John Bytheway (18:04)

B.J. when you were talking about take your focus off your own weakness and put it on Christ, you know what it reminded me of is we sometimes call it the Psalm of Nephi in 2nd Nephi 4. O wretched man that I am. But then his focus. But I know in whom I have trusted. My God hath been my support, and he hath helped me through the wilderness, and he hath protected me upon the sea and all of that. And you see how when his focus is on Christ, it's like you said, that's where he gained some more faith and confidence. Faith. And that is the first principle of the gospel, isn't it? Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Dr. BJ Allen (18:42)

That's a beautiful example.

Hank Smith (18:43)

John, John, we've talked about this before, but I'll say it again. There's a reason that repentance is the second principle of the gospel, and there's a reason the Lord said, I want you to take the sacrament every week.

John Bytheway (18:54)

Every week.

Hank Smith (18:55)

I can see me saying, I don't think I'll need it every week. I think I'm going to be pretty solid. Maybe four times a year. And he turns around with no, let's do this every week. It's a difficult thing to teach, B.J. but the Lord has this expectation that in your growing, you're going to make mistakes. That's why the second principle of the gospel is repentance. And we come back to the sacrament.

Dr. BJ Allen (19:16)

Beautiful. I want to take maybe a slightly different view on this story as regards to Christ compensating us, because I also think it's a beautiful reminder of how Christ helps us offer light to others. I want you to imagine being the brother of Jared and trying to figure out how you're going to light everybody's boats. He feels responsible, right? He's the one that's talking to God. He's the one that's making the boats, at least the one in charge. When he goes to God in the beginning of ether and asks him for help, you can tell he's not saying, hey, I don't want to go in darkness. He's saying, we don't like. What can we do? I'm responsible for giving them light, but my abilities aren't that great. We can liken this to all of us who are trying to offer light to others, whether that is a parent Or a church leader is like, we may not feel like our efforts are enough. I can't give these youth, I can't give these ward members. I can't give my children the light that they deserve. And that's okay. Here in the story, we learn that Christ compensates the efforts of the brother of Jared to make his efforts enough to help them. When I read the story, it reminded me of the story of feeding the 5000. When Jesus is teaching the people and it comes dark and the apostles say, hey, we should send these people home. What does Jesus say? He says, well, let's feed them now. Surely Jesus could have just made food out of nowhere, but he asked them, well, what do you have? And they find a boy who has five loaves and two fishes. And then Christ makes that enough. When you read the story in the New Testament about that, you can tell the apostles. They're really scared almost of, we don't have enough to give to these people. And I can't do that.

Hank Smith (21:16)

What are they among so many? I think it says yes, compared to what I need. What I have is not going to cover it.

Dr. BJ Allen (21:24)

Don't we feel like that way sometimes as parents or as leaders? I can't give my kids what they deserve. I can't feed them sufficiently. And what we learn from these stories is he doesn't just magnify our own abilities, but he compensates by making our efforts sufficient. This is such a salient example of Ether 12:27. He's making our weaknesses into strengths. I think this is true for parents, but particularly young moms that I talk to who struggle with, how do I teach my kids? How do I do? Come, follow me. Am I giving them what they need? I like to read second Nephi3.21, the weakness of their words. Why make strong in their faith? You may feel like you're not a great Gospel teacher, but the Lord will compensate what you can't do. And we can liken this to anyone with a stewardship who's trying to offer light to others, like the brother of Jared. As you turn to Christ, he will make your efforts enough.

Hank Smith (22:22)

That's awesome. He can turn your two loaves and fish into a banquet. Bring what you have, hand it over and say, touch it. Touch it. Make it work. I've done that so many times as a teacher, prepared a lesson and thought, this is awful. Light it up, right? Make it work. Please touch it. Please have something happen. And so often it does. It goes somewhere. And my students say, that was amazing. You're so and I think it wasn't when I got here. It was. It was not that amazing.

John Bytheway (22:51)

Is it Newell Whitney who is called to be a bishop? So I don't think I have a bishop in me. There's that same story. Bring what you have. I will multiply it a lot of times with callings. That's a good way to look at it. Yeah. Maybe you don't, but with Christ you can make it more. I was going to say too. This verse could have been written so matter of fact, the lowers caused stones to light in the barges, but instead stones to shine. He didn't even have to say in darkness. It makes sense without in darkness. The Lord caused stones to shine. To give light. No, but to shine in darkness. And when I think about a world that's increasingly dark, but this is going to shine in darkness. And then how beautiful. To let us know he's not talking about the ocean trip here. To give light unto men, women and children that they might not cross the great waters in darkness. I mean, it sounds like this is more than telling us about a journey. There's another level here.

Dr. BJ Allen (23:48)

Absolutely. And actually we're going to come back to that verse and talk about how it represents the Savior in just a little bit. John, I love what you said. It's such a beautiful illustration of trying to get us to understand Christ is here to give light to everybody.

Hank Smith (24:06)

Well, bj, I really appreciate that concept. Brother of Jared is not just thinking, I need light. There's some pressure of I need to provide light. I need to provide some light. I'm the bishop. I'm the gospel doctrine teacher, I'm the relief study president. And I'm supposed to offer some light. I need you. I can't do this. I don't have the skill set. I'm not a light maker.

Dr. BJ Allen (24:28)

Exactly. And we learn from the story that Jesus makes your efforts efficient no matter who you are. To take this even a step further as a parent. So I have six kids. Sometimes I wonder, would my kids be better off if Elder Holland was their dad? Probably.

Hank Smith (24:44)

Yeah.

Dr. BJ Allen (24:45)

He could probably teach them better than I could. Or President Nelson was their dad. I'm the bishop of my ward wonder do they deserve a better bishop? And the answer to all those questions is yes, they deserve someone better than me. I'm doing the best I can. And I just have to rely on the Savior to make my efforts enough because that's what his role is. Now we're going to go to ether 6, 4, 6. And again, we're going to read these through the lens of what gospel principles does Moroni pull from the story? When we get the interjection in Ether 12, Moroni teaches about faith and hope. Let's look at these verses in terms of faith and hope. Then in verse four, the Jaredites, they go unto the waters and it says, commending themselves unto the Lord their God. And it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a furious wind blown upon the face of the waters toward the promised land. And thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind. And it came to pass that they were many times buried in the depths of the sea because of the mountain waves which broke upon them, and also the great and terrible tempests which were caused by the fierceness of the winds.

Hank Smith (26:00)

It's almost like thanks a lot.

Dr. BJ Allen (26:03)

Exactly right. They commend themselves unto the Lord and commend means to entrust to someone. They entrust themselves to the Lord, and what do they get in return?

Hank Smith (26:15)

A storm.

Dr. BJ Allen (26:16)

Yes, a big storm. Furious winds, tossed, buried, great and terrible tempest. Does that seem like positive, right? I mean, if that was me, I would have been Lord, I just prayed that you would. You would take care of us. And now I'm in this giant storm. This doesn't seem like an answer to my prayer.

Hank Smith (26:36)

What thanks do I get for commending myself to you?

Dr. BJ Allen (26:40)

Exactly. Think about it. It must have been a really hard journey. It was about a year that they were in the water. And for a year, you're in this giant barge. That's your bedroom, your kitchen, your bathroom. You're in there with all your siblings, and they're poking you and pulling your hair. You have no idea where you are. You have no control. You have no cell, you have no motor. I have a large family. We travel to the coast of California, go to the beach. It's about 12 hours and. And by the time we're there, everyone's about to kill each other. And we got air conditioning and we get to stop at Wendy's when we're hungry. This is what the people ask the Lord is take care of us. And then they get terrible winds, they're buried, and there's eight different boats. They don't even know where each other are. They don't know if you're safe, if they're okay. But when we read Moroni later, he talks about it in positive terms and actually says that the people did praise the Lord. The reason they were grateful, at least in hindsight, was because they learned that those tumultuous experiences they had were actually what took them to the Promised Land. Maybe that's how they felt at first. Maybe that's only how they felt in hindsight. Christ blessed them. He compensated the difficult things in their life to make them great. I can't help but think of Lehi's teachings in Second Nephi. That he will consecrate our afflictions for our gain is they were blessed through the difficult experience. And it was actually those very things that helped them accomplish their goal of taking them to the Promised Land.

John Bytheway (28:28)

There was a sister in my ward, in fact, she was a wonderful Relief Society president, Sister Marsh. And she gave this talk once called cursed for thy sake. Showed that what you think was a trial, this furious wind was actually what was getting you there. Sister Art of Cap. I found this quotation. She said, note that the furious wind never did cease to blow towards the Promised Land. That's what it says in verse eight. They were driven forth before the wind toward their goal. Once they understood the purpose for the wind and knowing that their vessels were tight, which they made very clear when they designed them, we read further. They did sing praises unto the Lord, which is what you said, BJ I like that idea. This is scary, this furious wind. But this is taking us where we need to go. And we got to trust that God is taking us where we need to go.

Hank Smith (29:24)

Such a powerful principle. All of us could give example after example after example of something that seemed like a trial, seemed to any of us like, this is going to tear me apart. And then as we get through it, we look back and think, if it weren't for that thing, this and this and this would not have happened.

John Bytheway (29:43)

Hank, I've heard you give that talk before. What is it called?

Hank Smith (29:47)

Trial blessing or both?

John Bytheway (29:50)

Trial blessing or both. Now, you talked about President Uchtdorf, right?

Hank Smith (29:54)

I have it right here, John.

John Bytheway (29:56)

He couldn't learn German. Tell that, because I love that story and I love aviation and I love Elder Uchtdor. So tell the story.

Hank Smith (30:03)

This is back in 2006, which is hard to say. Back in 2006. That doesn't seem that long ago to me. But he says, allow me to share with you an experience from my boyhood. When I was 11 years old, my family had to leave East Germany and begin a new life in West Germany until my father could get into his original profession as a government employee. My parents operated a laundry business in our little town. Right, John? So they go from this middle class family, they become refugees. I don't think they can speak the language. He's talked about going from Russian to English and how difficult that was for him. He said, I became the laundry delivery boy. To be able to do that effectively, I needed a bicycle to pull the heavy laundry cart. I always dreamed of owning its nice, sleek, shiny, sporty red bicycle. But there was never enough money. What I got was a heavy, ugly, black workhorse of a bicycle. I delivered laundry on that bike before and after school for a few years. I like how he says this. He never says he hates the job. He says most of the time I was not overly excited about the bike, the cart or my job. This is important part of the story. Sometimes the cart seems so heavy and the work so tiring I thought my lungs would burst. I often had to stop and catch my breath. Nevertheless, I did my part. We desperately needed the income. John, you probably know the source on this. He doesn't say it here in this talk, but when he would take that bike around, he would occasionally stop at the airfield, watch the Americans and the British flying their planes in and out. This is what he says later. If only I had known back then what I learned many years later. When I was about to be drafted into the military, I decided to volunteer instead and join the Air Force to become a pilot. I loved flying and thought being a pilot would be my thing. I think he got into that, John. I'm not quite sure, but I think he. I think it became mentioned that. Yeah, he's mentioned that just a few times in confidence. He said, to be accepted for the program, I had to pass a number of tests, including a strict physical exam. The doctors were concerned by the results and did some tests. They announced, you have scars on your lungs, which were an indication of lung disease you had in your teenage years. But obviously you're fine now. The doctors wondered what kind of treatment had I gone through to heal this disease. Until that day of the examination, I had never known that I had any kind of lung disease. Then it became clear to me that it was the bike. My regular exercise in fresh air as a laundry boy had been the factor in healing from this illness. Without the extra effort of pedaling that bicycle day in and day out, pulling the laundry cart up and down the streets of our town. He says, I never would have gone on to become a pilot. 747. Air captain, right? And on and on. Then he says this. We don't always know the details of our future. B.J. you've brought this up. Here comes this storm. I commend myself to God, and what do I get? I get this storm now. Later, in a different talk a couple years later, listen to what he says and how we probably learned what he says here back when he had that experience. This is April of 2010. Often the deep valleys of our present will be understood only by looking back on them from the mountains of our future experience. Often we can't see the Lord's hand in our lives until long after the trial has passed. Often the most difficult times of our lives are essential building blocks that form the foundation of our character and pave the way to future opportunity, understanding and happiness. Thanks for letting me take that time, BJ and John, because this to me is a principle that comes up over and over. Joseph of Egypt all these terrible things happen, but they take him somewhere.

Dr. BJ Allen (34:00)

When we get some insight into how the Jaredites felt about this, if we go to verse 12, it tells us how they felt when they landed. It says, and they did land upon the shore of the Promised land. And when they had set their feet upon the shores of the Promised land, they bowed themselves down upon the face of the land and did humble themselves before the Lord and did shed tears of joy before the Lord because of the multitude of his tender mercies over them. They saw it as a tender mercy. And I love how both of you pointed out different ways in which the terrible tempests of our lives allow us to grow and help us become closer to God. This is similar to what Elder Holland called the prison temple, which I think he adopted from B.H. roberts and Elder Maxwell as well. The idea of prison temple comes from the Liberty Jail when Joseph Smith was in a terrible prison, but had some beautiful revelatory experiences and we get some of the most beautiful Doctrine and Covenant sections. Elder Holland gave a BYU devotional called Lessons from Liberty Jail and he points out how those terrible experiences can often turn out to be sacred experiences. He said you can have sacred, revelatory, profoundly instructive experience with the Lord in the most miserable experiences of your life in the worst settings, while enduring the most painful injustices when facing the most insurmountable odds and opposition you have ever faced. Listen to that language. You can go through painful things and they can turn out to be really special. If you don't mind, I want to share a personal experience I had with this. You mentioned at the beginning of my bio. I have a PhD in business administration from UT San Antonio. Towards the end of my PhD program, I had a really bad bout with mental health. I was dealing with really bad anxiety, even some depression. Every day was a struggle. It's hard to get up. It was hard to keep going. It's hard to keep the faith. Then, with a lot of help and blessings from my wife, I was able to move on. And we moved out after I graduated and I got a job as a business professor. And then I got invited back to UT San Antonio to give a lecture. I was pretty nervous. I was nervous I would get hit with all those negative feelings I had felt when I went back. Actually, the opposite happened. I went back to the house I had lived in, and I remembered so many prayers I had offered. And I went back to my office and remembered all of the dark days, but also the days where I had felt God's love. It became really special to me because one of the darkest times of my life became one of the most sacred. That's what I remember when I went there. I remember thinking, this is a sacred place. This is my prison temple. This is where I came to know God. I love that. Here in chapter six. It points that out. It points out that the Jaredites realized that they were tender mercies, that they praised God for those experiences.

Hank Smith (37:18)

Wow, that's very touching.

Dr. BJ Allen (37:21)

The only being who can teach you the exact way you need to be taught for your understanding is God. I learned this a few years ago when the church came out with a certain policy. Me personally, I didn't understand it. The ward members who are listening are like, wait. Bishop even has questions. The answer is yes. I'm not perfect, and I didn't understand it, but I wanted to rather than go read a bunch of stuff on the Internet or what people are saying about it. I just remember I offered a really heartfelt prayer and said, lord, I don't understand this, but I have faith in your prophets and in your church leaders. Help me understand it. And I studied it and I prayed and I did what the Doctrine Covenant said and I studied out in my mind, something magical happened. It was like I was having companionship study with the Holy Ghost. God taught me the exact way that BJ Allen needed to be taught to understand it. There was no one who could have taught me like that, at least to some degree. I think that's what he means. In these times of wickedness, in these times of questions, you need the Spirit with you, because the Spirit can teach you the exact way you need to be taught.

Hank Smith (38:37)

There's a parallel verse to the one we read, Ether617 in Doctrine and Covenants112, verse 10. I bet both of you could quote it. Be thou humble and the Lord thy God shall Lead thee by the hand.

John Bytheway (38:51)

Give the answers to thy prayers, Walk.

Hank Smith (38:54)

Humbly before the Lord and you'll be taught from on high.

Dr. BJ Allen (38:57)

I love that, that connection between that and that verse. That's awesome. Before we move on to the end of chapter six and go on to chapter seven, I want to point out one other thing it's worth noting here. In ether 6. 7 we get this mention that the barges were tight like unto a dish, like the Ark of Noah. I have a friend, a good friend, who's an atheist. When we talk about the Bible, one thing he often points out is these outrageous stories in the Bible. Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit and Noah and Moses. I love this little mention of the Ark of Noah because the Book of Mormon is a second witness of Bible stories. I think of 1 Nephi 1340 where it points out that the Book of Mormon as it relates to the Bible has two purposes. It says, make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away. Because we know there are some things over the years that were translated or taken away. And the Book of Mormon restores those and establish the truth of the first. So here it mentions Noah, a book of scripture that's on another side of the world. Another set of prophets saying, hey, there really was a man named Noah and he really did build an ark. And when you think about what other Bible stories or characters the Book of Mormon is a second witness of for the Bible. Adam and Eve, Moses, Joseph in Egypt, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Tower of Babel, Christ, John the Baptist, Isaiah. We could go on. Is that sometimes some of the critiques that the Bible gets. The Book of Mormon is a second witness that those things actually did happen.

Hank Smith (40:49)

So what you're saying is that a Bible loving person would love the Book of Mormon.

Dr. BJ Allen (40:56)

Exactly. It's a second witness of the stories that are in that.

John Bytheway (41:00)

Guys, why was six afraid of seven Mormon 789. That verse Jesus said, Mormon 789 says, and this was written for the intent that you believe that. And if you believe that, you will believe this also. And I love that there's some pretty strong purpose statements of the Book of Mormon on the title page. And every once in a while you get another little secondary purpose thrown in there that you may learn to be more wise than we have been is another favorite. But I love Mormon 7, 8, 9. This was written for the intent that you believe that the Bible. And if you believe that, you will believe this also. Sorry for the dad joke, I caught you off guard.

Dr. BJ Allen (41:45)

I love it.

John Bytheway (41:46)

Why Are you saying that right now? Yeah.

Hank Smith (41:50)

Listen, it's always a good time for a John, by the way, dad joke.

Dr. BJ Allen (41:54)

I know.

John Bytheway (41:55)

Well, now you'll remember. Seven, eight. Now you remember it.

Hank Smith (41:58)

Can I add something B.J. frequently? Oh, I don't think the flood of Noah was scientifically possible or Jonah and the whale. Really? Is that scientifically possible? And then I usually follow up with, do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus? Right. Oh, yeah, of course.

John Bytheway (42:15)

Let's talk about how scientifically possible that.

Hank Smith (42:18)

We'Re not saying that every Bible story is a absolute literal thing. The literature itself is a genre in its own. You have to learn how to read it. But the idea that we would say, well, I don't think the ark of Noah existed, but I do believe in the resurrection of Jesus. I just don't think we understand the scope of what we mean when we say we believe in the resurrection.

Dr. BJ Allen (42:41)

I love that. Thanks, Hank.

Hank Smith (42:43)

What should we do next?

Dr. BJ Allen (42:45)

As we wrap up Ether six and go into Ether seven, we are going to read the greatest spoiler of any book, Ether6. 22. Jared's people want a king. And they ask the brother of Jared and Jared to anoint a king. And then we get their answer in verse 23. And now behold, this was grievous unto them. And the brother of Jared said unto them, surely this thing leadeth into captivity. This is what we're going to see through the rest of the rest of the chapters. For come, follow me. Ether 7 through 11 is this thing leadeth to captivity?

Hank Smith (43:22)

And stop calling me Shirley.

John Bytheway (43:25)

Yeah, that's the dad joke.

Hank Smith (43:26)

I was.

John Bytheway (43:27)

If you weren't going to say it. I was. And Mahon Rai said, hey, don't call me Shirley. No, we're not having a king.

Dr. BJ Allen (43:33)

This is great. This is like, I'm like reliving my childhood. Listen to the John and Hank jokes from their tapes.

Hank Smith (43:40)

Oh, you get to be part of it now. Yeah, I love it. It's actually a nightmare.

John Bytheway (43:44)

Surely this leads to captivity. Hey, do not call me Shirley.

Hank Smith (43:47)

My name's Mahan Rai.

Dr. BJ Allen (43:49)

All right, now let's go to chapter seven and the further chapters. What we're going to ask ourselves is, what are we looking for? And remember, Moroni is not just giving a historical account, he's given a spiritual story. But let's talk a little bit about the high level overview of the story in general. For the Jaredites, this covers about 2,500 to 3,000 years. There's 30 generations. There's 30 to 40 different kings and about a Gajillion wars, civil wars, king overthrows. But one of the things I want to point out here is that the Book of Ether is a fantastic testament to Joseph Smith. Imagine that Joseph Smith really did make up the Book of Mormon like our critics say. He writes in the earlier chapters about the Nephites. And the Nephites have their culture and their economics and their monetary systems. And then Joseph Smith has the audacity to write a whole nother book about a whole nother group of people with their own culture. And the Jaredites are pre law of Moses. They have their own religious customs as well. It's to me a cool testament of Joseph Smith. Part of the cultural differences come from maybe the origins of where they came from. Hugh Nibley, who was really one of the pioneers in studying the link between the cultures of Middle east and Asia and the Book of Mormon, he points out that maybe some of the differences between the Nephites and the Jaredites were where they originated from. He suggests that the Nephites came around Africa and ended up on the east coast of America. And then a lot of experts think that the Jaredites started in Mesopotamia and made their way through Asia and then traveled around the world to the west coast of the Americas. He points out that maybe some of the customs and the differences were that the Jaredites were influenced by the people of Asia. For example, we're going to see this really weird custom among the Jaredites, which is they almost never kill kings. You overtake a king and what do you do? You let him live in captivity and he writes and he lives a life and he has kids again, I think a cool testament to the prophet Joseph Smith and that the Book of Mormon really is a translation of an ancient record.

Hank Smith (46:12)

Bj, we talked about this last week with doctors Pierce Pierce squared. If you go to Ether one, Joseph Smith goes backwards from ether all the way to jail.

John Bytheway (46:24)

30 something generations. Yeah.

Hank Smith (46:27)

Verse after verse after verse. This is where my kids go, really? Can we just skip? He does that in chapter one and then chapters two through 15. He does the exact same list but in reverse order. How would you remember the way out? Unbelievable. And he goes through and says, okay, now here's the genealogy. Now let's go back through and tell the story of each. We don't base our testimony off of these things, but it is, it's incredible to think about.

Dr. BJ Allen (46:52)

It is incredible. Yeah, thank you for pointing that out.

John Bytheway (46:55)

Bj One of the things that's really fun to relate about this is the ancient origins of the game of chess and how you treat the king. You don't kill the king in chess. You put him in check. Can I read something from Hugh Nibley, because I thought this was so cool. He says these insane wars of the Jaredite chiefs ended in the complete annihilation of both sides, with kings the last to go. This all seems improbable to us, but two circumstances peculiar to Asiatic. I think that's Asia tic. Asiatic warfare, explained by the phenomenon, is by no means without parallel. Since every war is strictly a personal contest between kings, the battle must continue until one of the kings falls or is taken. And yet things are so arranged that the king must be very last to fall, the whole army existing for the sole purpose of defending his person. This is clearly seen in the game of chess, quoting Hunibley, in which all pieces are expendable except the king, who can never be taken. Then he quotes a scholar named me Moghadam. The shah in chess is not killed and does not die. The game is terminated when the shah is pressed into a position from which he cannot escape. This is in line with all good traditions of chess playing, and back of it, the tradition of capturing the king in war rather than slaying him whenever that could be accomplished. Now, back to Hun Nibley. You will recall the many instances in the Book of Ether in which kings were kept in prison for many years but not killed. In the code of medieval chivalry taken over from Central Asia, the person of the king is sacred. All others must perish in his defense. Isn't that interesting that that would be in there? Because, like you said, it sounds weird to us, but they don't kill the king. They put him in check.

Dr. BJ Allen (48:45)

I like what Hank said. We don't base our testimonies on these things, but it's pretty cool still.

Hank Smith (48:51)

Yeah, it's fun. It's fun.

John Bytheway (48:53)

Yeah.

Hank Smith (48:53)

Dr. Spencer would tell us it can't be about the evidence. It has to be about the text. So if he's listening, Joe, we're sorry. We just had to do that, just for. Just.

Dr. BJ Allen (49:02)

First, as we go through chapter seven, we're going to see the Jaredites go through this cycle. And it is similar to what President Benson calls the pride cycle. They are wicked. The Lord sends prophets. The prophets are rejected, the people are punished, then they repent, then they are righteous, and then the cycle starts over. When we are looking through these stories of the Jaredites, I think it is such a beautiful example. Not only that God offers blessings and punishments for keeping his commandments and not keeping them, but Also that not keeping commandments brings terrible consequences in a natural way. It's not that God won't let you be happy when you're not obeying the commandments. It's that life won't let you be happy. God knows what will make you happy. God wants us to be happy and he gives us commandments to help us to be happy. As we read through the Jaredites, let's remember that and let's look for that. What are some of the things the Jaredites do that make them unhappy? And let's look at what led to their downfall and some of the parallels in our day. So that is the way I want to approach ether 7 and 8 and so on. What are some of the things that led to the downfall and what are their parallels in our days? Let's go to ether 7:20 through 21. There are kings and there are wars and there are downfalls. And then we get this. It says, and the country was divided. And there were two kingdoms, the kingdom of Shul and the kingdom of Qohor, the son of Noah. And Qohor the son of Noah caused that his people should give battle unto Shul, in which Shul did beat them and slay Qohor. I want to focus on this phrase. At the beginning, the country was divided because this is a theme throughout the Jaredites is that someone else wants to be king and they entice the kingdom to come to them. And there is so much division and contention. I think about the talk by President Nelson, peacemakers needed. There's a time where this is relevant. It's to us because we see so much parallels between now and the days of the brother of Jared. This is the quote from President Nelson, talk Peacemakers needed. Vulgarity, fault finding and evil. Speaking of others are all too common. Too many pundits, politicians, entertainers and other influencers throw insults constantly. I am greatly concerned that so many people seem to believe it is completely acceptable to condemn, malign and vilify anyone who does not agree with them. Why does President Nielsen feel so passionate about the division and the things that we see? And to show this, I want to share some stats that demonstrate how people like to vilify other people who don't agree with them. This was a study 2002, the Pew Research, which is a very reputable market research company, they asked people of one political party what they thought of the people of the other political party. I'm not going to talk about what the political party said because I don't want this to be Political. But I think it illustrates how divided people are when someone disagrees with them. They ask people what party they belong to and then they ask them what they thought of the other party. They asked the people the degree to which they felt the other party was closed minded. What is the percent of people who said the other political party was a lot or somewhat closed minded? 83% for one and 69% for the other. They asked the same question with the degree to which you felt the other party was dishonest. 72 and 64. And the degree to which you felt the other political party was immoral. 72 and 63. This is people you don't even know. And it's okay to not agree with other people. That's what makes diversity. That's what makes humanity great. But one of the things that's so concerning is that all these numbers have substantially increased since their last study in 2016. Let's take dishonest, for example. In 2016, these percentages were 45 and 42. And now they're 72 and 63. How do we remedy this example of try to vilify people who don't believe the way that you think? President Nelson said this in that same talk. As disciples of Jesus Christ, we are to be examples of how to interact with others, especially when we have differences of opinion. One of the easiest ways to identify a true follower of Jesus Christ is how compassionately that person treats other people. It's okay. It's okay to disagree again. That's what makes diversity. That's what makes us great. But it's not okay to vilify people because they have a different opinion than you do. How do we get to the point where we treat people compassionately, at least to some degree? What President Nelson here is teaching is to see their viewpoint again. We don't have to agree with them, but we fight division with compassion. I learned this lesson. This was a few years ago. I was helping a family who was on church welfare. They were a fantastic family, going through some hard times. And I would meet with them occasionally to talk about their budget and what we needed to do to help. There was one particular meeting where I met with the husband. He got really angry. He didn't understand why we needed to meet. And he felt I thought he was just accepting handouts and things that weren't true. And as he's talking and being mean to me, my anger inside me is boiling and I'm like, I'm here to help you and you're getting mad at me. I remember saying a prayer. I said, God, I feel really angry right now, but I don't want to feel this way. Please help me. And then in an instant, all of a sudden, I saw this individual the way that God saw him. He wasn't trying to be angry. He was going through a really hard time. I saw how compassionately God saw him. In an instant, my whole attitude and emotions changed. And I told him, I said, hey, I'm sorry for anything I did that made you feel that way. And that's not how I feel. I apologized to him. And then, you know what happened? His demeanor changed and the walls went down. And he apologized to me, said, hey, I'm going through a really hard time. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said those things. He was a great man. And he became a good friend, a good person going through a bad day. And I learned from that experience that it's okay when people don't agree with you or sometimes that they say something mean to you. But we don't fight division and contention with division and contention. We fight division with compassion.

Hank Smith (56:06)

John, do you remember, I think, Alma 60 and 61, that exchange between Captain Moroni and Pahoran is such a. Bless it. Moroni really, really gives it to Pahoran. And Pahoran responds with, I do not joy in your afflictions. It grieves my soul. In your epistle, you have censured me, but it mattereth not. I am not angry. I rejoice in the greatness of your heart.

Dr. BJ Allen (56:38)

How does Moroni react after that?

Hank Smith (56:40)

They unite.

Dr. BJ Allen (56:41)

Yeah. Moroni realizes, hey, actually, Pahorin, he's a friend.

Hank Smith (56:46)

Yeah.

Dr. BJ Allen (56:46)

And we're going to do this together. I love that.

John Bytheway (56:49)

I was thinking of the sign of Samuel, the Lamanite, and how those people that were watching for the sign and it wasn't given. Okay, let's set aside a day to put to death those who believed in the sign. What happened to. Well, let's just agree to disagree. I mean, how did they get to that point where. Well, that didn't happen, therefore, we have to kill you. That's a frightening. The end of what you're talking about here. If we allow the way we see people to get harsher and more harsh and more polarizing until we think you don't have a right to live because you believe this way.

Dr. BJ Allen (57:23)

Whoa.

John Bytheway (57:23)

How did that happen? I love you brought up Moroni and Pahoran because here's a couple of guys that we love that are passionate and Pahoran responds so beautifully. There Was at the beginning of the reign of the judges some sort of no law against a man's belief. But somehow when the secret combinations infiltrated, it became to where they could kill people for believing. Something pretty intense.

Hank Smith (57:51)

And one thing BJ that I thought of is for me personally, this happened when Sister Du came on. She said, who are you listening to and what do they want? John, you could say it better than me. Who else would you listen to? Which talk show host, what influencer would you rather listen to than the prophet? And then she said, because all of those people want something from you. I've learned myself to be careful around anyone who needs to keep me angry so they can continue their work. If I can fuel your anger, I can keep you coming back to my platform or whatever it is for me. I just have to be careful and watch out for that.

John Bytheway (58:34)

I can't remember who our guest was that emphasized. Look how many times it says they did stir them up to anger. They had a desired outcome for that and it wasn't good. Watch out for those who are trying to stir you up into anger.

Hank Smith (58:47)

Yeah.

Dr. BJ Allen (58:48)

Continuing on the same theme of what led to the Jaredites to fall, we talked about how there was division and contention. And then we get another indication here in ether 7:23 and also the reign of Shul, there came many prophets among the people who were sent from the Lord, prophesying that the wickedness and idolatry of the people was bringing a curse upon the land and they should be destroyed if they did not repent. That's the second thing is wickedness and idolatry. Sometimes idolatry literally means idol worship. And sometimes in the Scriptures, it just means they have a love for worldly things, anything besides God. And then we get another indicator in verse 24. And it came to pass that the people did revile against the prophets and did mock them. And it came to pass that King Shul did execute judgment against all those who did revile against the prophets. And this is a theme throughout the whole Book of Mormon, but especially in ether. The Lord sends prophets to help them. All the prophets want to do is tell the people what God wants them to know and what will make them happy. And people don't like to be told what to do. Oh, we want to be independent. You want to take away our agency. We learn through the Book of Ether. It's just foolish to not do what the prophets tell you because the prophets are always right. The Book of Mormon teaches us the prophets are always right and you can disagree with them. And you can disobey them, but it's at your own peril. Along with that, listen to this quote from President Packer about how prophets aren't taking away our agency, but they're just trying to help us. Latter Day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God. Now, I love this part. We are not obedient because we are blind. We are obedient because we can see. We don't follow the Prophet simply because we have to out of a sense of duty. It's because we want to. It's because we see how following the Prophet blesses us. Not just in those big Thus saith the Lord moments where we're like, oh, the prophet, he's laying down the hammer here. Like, we need to obey him. There's so much blessings in just immersing ourselves in their teachings. I already brought up one earlier, the talk from Elder Holland that I used to listen to every day when I was dealing with mental health. Like it was my pump up song. I served my mission in Detroit and I was serving in a struggling branch. I read a talk by Elder Christofferson about conversion, and I said, this is what I want for my branch. We implemented. It was like a playbook. We implemented play by play what he said, and it totally changed the trajectory of our branch. I could go on and on with ways that the prophets have helped me. And I would say this is why I feel so passionate about following the Prophet. Because I can see. I've seen the ways that prophets help us, and I've seen the ways that they've blessed my life as I followed them. But more importantly, when we understand why the Lord sends prophets, the most important reason that we follow the Prophet is because prophets bring us to the Savior. They help us understand things about our Savior and about his plan for us. For example, if I think about why I love Joseph Smith, I love studying the prophet's life. But why do I really love Joseph Smith? It's because his teachings bring me closer to the Savior because of the things that he restored. I understand the plan of salvation better. I understand the role that my Savior plays in my life. Joseph Smith brought me the Book of Mormon, where I have beautiful teachings that help me understand the atonement, like Alma 42, about the law of justice and the law of mercy and how Christ appeases both laws. I think of Alma 7 where I learn about how Christ took upon infirmities. Prophets are the mouthpiece of God. They're anointed by him to lead his church. Part of the reason we follow the prophet is because we love Christ. Hank, you mentioned when Sherry Du was on the show, one of the things that she says is sustaining the prophet in today's world takes faith, but not faith in them. Faith in Jesus Christ, who called them doctrine covenants, section 84 he that receiveth my servants receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth my Father. The same way that we receive the Father if we receive Jesus is the same way that we receive Jesus if we receive his prophets. The prophets are a representation of the Savior. I'm so grateful for our prophets because they help me come to understand my Savior better.

Hank Smith (63:56)

Coming up in part two of this episode.

Dr. BJ Allen (63:59)

I do organizational training sometimes for companies. One of the things I'll talk about is this concept of mindset, like having a growth mindset, having a mindset that gets you through difficult experiences and has courage to take on challenges. And one of the things I share is this insight from the Pacific Institute, which is an organizational consulting agency. They call it the flick back, flick up technique.