Podcast Summary: followHIM – Genesis 1-2, Moses 2-3, Abraham 4-5, Part 1

Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway
Guest: Dr. Rebekah Call
Release Date: January 8, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the creation and fall narratives of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham with Dr. Rebekah Call, a scholar specializing in Hebrew and religious studies. The discussion covers how to approach scripture thoughtfully and allegorically, the importance of liminal spaces (like Eden and temples), new ways to understand the Fall and Eve's role, moving beyond literal/scientific readings, and the transformative nature of repentance and atonement.

The tone is inquisitive, energetic, empathetic, and occasionally humorous.

Major Themes and Discussion Points

1. Approaching Scripture: More Than Literalism

• The hosts and Dr. Call open with the idea that creation accounts are not intended as scientific explanations but as spiritual narratives with layered meaning.
  • [02:03] Dr. Call: “We take the creation not necessarily as scientific record, but what are other ways that we can approach the text that help us really learn from it and really, really be fed spiritually by the text without necessarily having to align it to science?”
• Dr. Call emphasizes that differing and even contradictory scriptural accounts are intentional, providing multiple entry points for spiritual insight and personal revelation.
  • [13:50] “I am not sure that we should always be taking the text literally… maybe there are three or 400 different ways we can understand each of these stories.”
• The panel agrees that scripture adapts and evolves with revelation, and that diversity of scriptural voices is a feature, not a flaw.
  • [19:16] “Religious change happens and it’s necessary because cultures and languages change. …It’s the same religion in the same way I can show a baby picture of me at six months and it looks quite different from me now because I am living and growing and changing. And religions also need to live and grow and change.” – Dr. Call

2. The Messiness of Creation and Divine Transformation

• The act of creation (cosmic and personal) is inherently messy, but this messiness is vital to growth and learning.
  • [09:09] “Each of us is in the middle of creation right now. My life is in process of being created… Sometimes the messiest moments aren’t because something is wrong. It’s because creation is happening.” – Dr. Call
• Mistakes, disorder, and chaos are part of God’s plan, echoed in scripture and the temple, allowing for experiential learning and transformation.
  • [12:24] “Repenting really is anything that brings us closer to God… It’s Bringing me closer to Christ. …That is actually this gift that we’re allowed to make mistakes, that we sin in order to help us see, I am not as close to God as I want to be.” – Dr. Call

3. Liminal Spaces, Eden as a Model

• Dr. Call introduces the concept of “liminal spaces” – transitional zones like temples and Eden, where boundaries are blurred and transformation occurs.
  • [23:57] “A liminal space is any place that’s in between. …Temples are really liminal spaces… The Garden of Eden functions as a liminal space.”
• The garden was not designed for permanent residency; like the temple, it is a place of passage and preparation.
  • [25:04] “Non-liminal beings… are not meant to stay in the liminal space forever… We go to the temple, but then we are always meant to exit back into our own life having gained more power and to live that life.” – Dr. Call

4. The Fall: Moral Awareness and the Necessity of Choice

• The Genesis text provides conflicting commands (“eat of every tree” and “do not eat of the tree of knowledge”) to catalyze moral awareness and choice.
  • [27:11] “If you give a person a conflicting command… eventually that person is going to realize there are such thing as choices, there are such thing as consequences. Not all choices are made equal, and I need to choose. And the moment they realize this contradiction, you have the birth of moral awareness.”
• The Fall is not a catastrophe but an intentional, inevitable step in God’s plan, preparing the way for Christ and experiential learning.
  • [31:06] “If it was, like, inevitable they leave the garden, that means Jesus is always planning. …We have to make sure they can get into the position that they can go learn through experience to know the good from the evil and have messy mortal experiences. Because that’s what we do. We make mistakes, and then we can learn.” – Dr. Call

5. The True “Problem” of the Fall: Disunity

• The serpent’s ultimate goal was not tempting Adam and Eve to sin, but to sow distrust and separation between them and God, and between each other.
  • [33:36] “Everything the serpent says is designed to sow mistrust. The serpent puts a breach. He breaches the trust between the humans and God also. The effect of this is that he breaches the trust between humans… The problem of the Fall is not that we sin. …What is the problem of the Fall? It’s separation. It’s disunity. It is contention.” – Dr. Call
• True redemption—the at-one-ment—restores unity with God and among people.
  • [38:17] “What is the thing that will bring us back to unity or at one? It is the atonement. What does Jesus pray for… That they may be one, as we are one.” – John Bytheway

6. Atonement as “Covering”: The Deep Symbolism

• After the Fall, Adam and Eve’s instinct is to hide in shame and make aprons. God responds by “covering” them with coats of skins—symbolically linking atonement (kaphar) with grace and unity.
  • [43:10] “What is God’s response? …Come and show yourself to me and let me cover you. …The Hebrew word kaphar is the word to cover. And it is also the word to atone so that Christ comes and covers our shame.” – Dr. Call
• The “coats of skins” are not outer coats, but inner garments worn next to the skin, echoing temple garments and daily reminders of Christ’s atonement.
  • [49:07] “What is translated as coats… is like a tunic… That’s the thing you’re wearing next to your skin very frequently in more ancient clothing times.” – Dr. Call

7. The Danger of Shame, Hiding, and Fear

• The adversary’s power lies in fostering fear and shame, blocking authentic connection with God.
  • [51:19] “Now Adam and Eve are not actually interacting with God. They’re interacting with their idea of God. It’s an image of God. There’s a separation in the relationship. That’s not an authentic relationship.” – Dr. Call
• God’s grace anticipates and heals our inadequacies; the imperative is to step into the open before God, letting Christ cover and redeem us.
  • [60:30] “Don’t hide in our shame. Let ourselves be fully exposed. I actually think that that is a key step to receiving Christ into our lives. …Of course you’re not enough. You were never meant to be enough. Jesus is enough. So stop focusing on yourself and start focusing on Jesus.” – Dr. Call

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Infinite Approaches to Scripture
  • [15:24] “Wherever I am, God has a way to reach me. God has infinite numbers of children… that means God needs infinite numbers of ways to reach people.”
• On Divine Messiness
  • [09:09] “Sometimes the messiest moments aren’t because something is wrong. It’s because creation is happening. It needs to be messy.”
• On the Nature of Repentance
  • [12:24] "Repenting is when I forgive someone… when I take a moment in my prayers… when I pay attention when I read my scriptures… that’s all repenting because it’s Bringing me closer to Christ."
• On Shame and Covering
  • [43:24] “We can defend ourselves in our shame, but if we want atonement, if we want covering, that is something that God, that Christ is ready to do. …He covers them with coats of skins.”
• On Facing Inadequacy
  • [60:30] “Of course you’re not enough. You were never meant to be enough. Jesus is enough.”
• On Prayer and Vulnerability
  • [57:14] “God already knows what you need. If you know you’re talking to somebody who already knows it all… how does that change what you ask for?”

Important Timestamps

• [00:03–03:27] – Introduction, Dr. Call’s background, overview of the main topics.
• [09:09] – The messiness of creation and divine transformation.
• [13:13] – Approaching scripture: reconciling multiple, sometimes contradictory accounts.
• [23:56] – Liminal spaces: Eden, temples, and boundaries.
• [27:11] – Creation accounts in Hebrew, conflicting commands, the birth of moral awareness.
• [33:36] – The real problem of the Fall: disunity, not just sin.
• [43:10] – Atonement as covering; God’s response to human shame.
• [51:19] – The danger of fear, shame, and disengagement from God.
• [60:30] – Personal story of embracing inadequacy and focusing on Christ’s sufficiency.

Tone & Style

The episode is reflective, inquisitive, and gentle, focusing on spiritual exploration rather than dogmatisms. Dr. Call is scholarly yet personable, skillfully weaving expertise with personal storytelling. Hosts Hank and John are warm and relatable, peppering the session with humor and practical perspectives.

For Further Reflection (Coming in Part 2)

• Dr. Call shares a poem/song from Eve’s perspective, combining Hebrew tradition and artistic interpretation.
  • [66:34] “Then I wrote a poem that is from her perspective after Abel has already been killed…”

This episode is especially recommended for those wanting a nuanced, expansive, and redemptive reading of early Genesis texts, and for anyone yearning to connect scriptural study to personal spiritual growth and modern questions about God, shame, and belonging.