Podcast Summary

Podcast: followHIM
Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway
Guest: Dr. Rebecca Call
Episode: Genesis 1-2, Moses 2-3, Abraham 4-5 Part 2
Date: January 8, 2026
Episode Theme:
A deep dive into the creation narratives of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham, focusing on themes of shame, repentance/recovery, the true textual understanding of Eve’s role and the phrase “help meet,” and practical gospel applications. Dr. Rebecca Call’s scholarship sheds new light on women in scripture and in LDS tradition.

Episode Overview

This episode continues the exploration of the creation accounts, with particular emphasis on addressing shame and addiction, re-examining Eve’s role in the Garden of Eden, and the impact of scriptural interpretation on gender roles and unity. Dr. Rebekah Call shares her research into the Hebrew text, offering compelling translations and insights to challenge longstanding traditions about Eve and women, ultimately inviting listeners to a richer, more unified understanding of scripture and discipleship.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Addressing Shame and Addiction in the Church Community

Openness About Addiction:
Hosts and Dr. Call discuss the damaging effects of shame, particularly around pornography, and advocate for transparency and Christlike compassion in helping youth (00:07–04:36).
- Quote:
  
  “It will only lead to people hiding it more. And actually it's the hiding that gives the dopamine rush... What matters is that we're on the road and Christ is there. He's there in the relapse.”
  — Dr. Rebecca Call (01:15)
Recovery and Christ’s Grace:
Emphasizes that grace is not limited by repeated struggles, and that Christ doesn’t “max out" his atonement for anyone (02:30).
Destigmatizing Sin:
The need to treat all sins as evidence of the “eternal gulf” between God and humans, not to hierarchize sin by severity.
Personal & Cultural Experiences:
John Bytheway relates a historic personal anecdote about the changing context of temptation (05:44); hosts discuss how the Lord “suits his mercies” to the conditions of the times (05:59).

Christlike Ministry: Compassion over Condemnation

Destigmatizing Self-Worth:
Teaching youth that they are not “disgusting” and that God continues to love and support them unconditionally (06:20).
Ether 12:27:
Weakness as a universal, transformative challenge. Christ does not remove but transforms weaknesses when we partner with Him (06:58).
Changing the Conversation:
Practical ministering: Instead of probing for confession, leaders can ask, “What are you doing to protect yourself?” (08:42).
The Role of Church Leadership:
Choosing leaders and support systems who love and join with individuals in their struggles (09:19).

Re-examining Eve’s Role: Scholarship, Translation & Theology

Critique of Traditional Narratives:
Dr. Call shares personal experiences of being told in her youth that women should not lead or seek adventure because of “Eve’s transgression” (09:43–13:00).
- Quote:
  
  “Whether we villainize Eve or whether we lift her up to some unattainable standard of perfection, the effect is the same... We are engaging with tradition, but they are not actually engaging with the Bible.”
  — Dr. Rebecca Call (13:00)
Dissertation Research on “Help Meet”:
Comprehensive linguistic study of the Hebrew phrase (ezer kenegdo) across related languages; finds multiple plausible alternative translations, many of which radically reshape how we see Eve’s role (13:00–18:00).
- Eight possible translations for “help,” twelve for “meet.”
- Text does not linguistically support traditions justifying inferiority or villainy of Eve.
- Quote:
  
  “What I found is that linguistically, the Genesis text does not support any of those... if they're engaging with any of those sorts of things... they're engaging with tradition, but they are not actually engaging with the Bible.”
  — Dr. Rebecca Call (16:20)
Unity Between Genders:
Emphasizes the theological complementarity of men and women, who “were one and then separated and need to come back together” (18:00–19:00).

Eve as Shepherd and Spiritual Leader

Potential Translation: “Shepherd” for “Help Meet”:
The Aramaic cognate for “negéd” could mean “shepherd,” positioning Eve as the prototype of biblical shepherd-leaders (20:27).
Shared Mankind Leadership Mandate:
Genesis 1 commands both man and woman to rule together, debunking “support” vs “lead” gender roles (21:00).
Interpreting Genesis 3:16:
Grammar and context suggest the infamous “he will rule over you” is descriptive prophecy—not commandment or divine desire (22:00–29:00).
- Quote:
  
  “I think that God is warning them and saying this will be a tendency in human history... It is up to you to try to counteract that, to try to move beyond this, to try to remedy this part of the fallen world.”
  — Dr. Rebecca Call (29:00)
Presiding as Christ Did:
To preside is to “serve as the Savior served,” focusing on jointly building trust, unity, and counteracting historical patterns of inequality (29:00).
Eve as Prototype Shepherd:
Linking Eve to subsequent biblical shepherd-leaders, including Rachel, Mary, and ultimately Christ as the Good Shepherd (30:37–33:42).
Eve as Temple/Sanctuary/Tree of Life:
Eve “is built” from a word signifying a plank or temple beam, not an anatomical rib—suggesting imagery of sanctuaries, trees of life/knowledge, and wholeness (33:42–38:41).

Gospel Lab and the Spirit of Charity

Unity and Practice:
The story of Adam and Eve as a pattern for unity in marriages, families, and wards. “Church is gospel lab”—where charity is practiced with imperfect people (38:41–42:08).
Charity as Hard/Forgiving Love:
“Charity is not the easy kind of love. Charity is the hard kind of love when there’s every reason not to do it.”
— Dr. Rebecca Call (40:20)
Embracing Imperfection:
Referencing Elder Holland, even Christ only worked with imperfect people; so should we.

Mainstream vs. LDS Views on Eve

Distinct LDS Perspective:
Mainstream Christian theology has historically regarded Eve as lesser; LDS scripture and discourse emphasize gratitude for her choice (43:00–44:41).
- Quote:
  
  “The majority of how we talk about Eve is quite different from mainstream Christianity in this sense. But there are subliminal threads that have woven through...”
  — Dr. Rebecca Call (44:30)
Cultural Drift:
LDS still experience cultural drift in how Eve/women are discussed, warranting careful separation of tradition from doctrine.

Dangers of Overcorrecting Gender Narratives

False Elevation as Reverse Problem:
Over-correcting by making women “better”/“higher” than men yields the same problems of lost agency and partnership (45:12–48:54).
- Quote:
  
  "It doesn't solve the problem to say that because women... have been repressed that we should repress the people... who've repressed them. It's the same problem. It's the same sin, just turned around."
  — Dr. Rebecca Call (45:43)
True Partnership and Agency:
Full agency and potential are realized when both genders strive together equally yoked.

Literalism and Adam & Eve

Literal vs. Figurative:
Most academics view Adam and Eve as archetypes rather than literal historical people; Dr. Call stresses that fidelity to Christ and the principles of His gospel matters more than locking to any single interpretive framework (49:26–50:37).

Concluding Reflection: Eve’s Perspective in Poetry and Song

Dr. Call’s Poetic Project:
Shares a poem and musical setting imagining Eve comforting Seth after Abel's death. The poem ties together doctrinal, linguistic, and ancient Near Eastern insights, highlighting loss, growth, unity, and parental love (51:06–58:42).
Notable Lyrics/Lines:

“O my child, you cannot remember
the glory that clothed us like embers.
Ish Isha. Together in Eden,
no questions weighed on us.
We walked hand in hand...”
— Rebecca Call, reading (52:57)
Song Performance:
Dr. Call sings the poem, moving hosts and listeners (58:42–61:19).

Memorable Quotes

Dr. Rebecca Call:

“Christ is not ashamed of us. If he were ashamed of us, he wouldn’t make covenants with us.” (03:08)
“When people read the text... they're engaging with tradition, but they are not actually engaging with the Bible.” (16:20)
“Everyone loses. Whereas when both people can be here together, working together, in the trenches together, equally yoked, that is when both have the greatest potential for expression of agency...” (48:11)
(regarding “rib”) “Never means rib anywhere else in Hebrew. It’s a construction term. Often it refers to a plank or a beam... this is not an anatomical term.” (37:13)

John Bytheway:

“We love that our Savior suits his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men. Because my 1979 world for a teenager was not the same as a 2025 world.” (05:59)

Host:

“You are not disgusting. You are not awful, you’re not gross. God loves you.” (06:20)
“Happy wife, happy life is probably not the way to go. It’s more happy God, happy life.” (48:54)

Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Insight | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:07 | Shame, Addictions in Youth, and Christ’s Cultures of Grace | | 06:58 | Ether 12:27 and Transforming Weaknesses with Christ | | 09:43 | Dr. Call’s Personal Experiences with Gender and LDS Culture | | 13:00–18:00 | Linguistic study: “Help Meet” and the legacy of translation | | 20:27 | Eve as a Model Shepherd Leader | | 22:00–29:00 | Deep Hebraic dive on Genesis 3:16 — description vs prescription | | 30:37 | Eve as a sanctuary, temple, or “tree of life/knowledge” | | 33:42 | The “Rib” as Plank/Beam/Side — symbol of unity | | 38:41–41:51 | Unity, Charity, and Gospel Lab in Christ’s Church | | 42:49 | Mainstream Christian vs. LDS Understanding of Eve | | 45:12–48:54 | Risks in Reverse Elevation (“Better Half” Issue) | | 49:26 | On the literal vs symbolic Adam and Eve | | 51:06–58:42 | Poem and Song: The Burden of Balance — Eve’s Perspective | | 61:19–62:43 | Closing sentiments: unity, gratitude, and spiritual motivation |

Final Reflections

The episode delivers a stirring call to:

Rethink shame and sin in the context of Christ’s Atonement and ongoing grace
Tease doctrine from tradition, especially in readings of Eve and women in scripture
Approach church life as a “Gospel Lab,” practicing real charity and unity
Embrace both men's and women’s gifts in seeking continual revelation and the fullness of the Restoration
Seek unity at every level: in marriages, families, wards, and the broader church

Dr. Call’s scholarship models how careful, faithful inquiry and inspired imagination can renew our engagement with scripture and each other.

[To, hear Dr. Call’s poem and song, see 51:06–61:19.]

Hosts and guest sign off with gratitude, emphasizing the episode’s spirit of unity and Christ-centered study.

Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Addressing Shame and Addiction in the Church Community

Openness About Addiction:
Hosts and Dr. Call discuss the damaging effects of shame, particularly around pornography, and advocate for transparency and Christlike compassion in helping youth (00:07–04:36).
- Quote:
  
  “It will only lead to people hiding it more. And actually it's the hiding that gives the dopamine rush... What matters is that we're on the road and Christ is there. He's there in the relapse.”
  — Dr. Rebecca Call (01:15)
Recovery and Christ’s Grace:
Emphasizes that grace is not limited by repeated struggles, and that Christ doesn’t “max out" his atonement for anyone (02:30).
Destigmatizing Sin:
The need to treat all sins as evidence of the “eternal gulf” between God and humans, not to hierarchize sin by severity.
Personal & Cultural Experiences:
John Bytheway relates a historic personal anecdote about the changing context of temptation (05:44); hosts discuss how the Lord “suits his mercies” to the conditions of the times (05:59).

Christlike Ministry: Compassion over Condemnation

Destigmatizing Self-Worth:
Teaching youth that they are not “disgusting” and that God continues to love and support them unconditionally (06:20).
Ether 12:27:
Weakness as a universal, transformative challenge. Christ does not remove but transforms weaknesses when we partner with Him (06:58).
Changing the Conversation:
Practical ministering: Instead of probing for confession, leaders can ask, “What are you doing to protect yourself?” (08:42).
The Role of Church Leadership:
Choosing leaders and support systems who love and join with individuals in their struggles (09:19).

Re-examining Eve’s Role: Scholarship, Translation & Theology

Critique of Traditional Narratives:
Dr. Call shares personal experiences of being told in her youth that women should not lead or seek adventure because of “Eve’s transgression” (09:43–13:00).
- Quote:
  
  “Whether we villainize Eve or whether we lift her up to some unattainable standard of perfection, the effect is the same... We are engaging with tradition, but they are not actually engaging with the Bible.”
  — Dr. Rebecca Call (13:00)
Dissertation Research on “Help Meet”:
Comprehensive linguistic study of the Hebrew phrase (ezer kenegdo) across related languages; finds multiple plausible alternative translations, many of which radically reshape how we see Eve’s role (13:00–18:00).
- Eight possible translations for “help,” twelve for “meet.”
- Text does not linguistically support traditions justifying inferiority or villainy of Eve.
- Quote:
  
  “What I found is that linguistically, the Genesis text does not support any of those... if they're engaging with any of those sorts of things... they're engaging with tradition, but they are not actually engaging with the Bible.”
  — Dr. Rebecca Call (16:20)
Unity Between Genders:
Emphasizes the theological complementarity of men and women, who “were one and then separated and need to come back together” (18:00–19:00).

Eve as Shepherd and Spiritual Leader

Potential Translation: “Shepherd” for “Help Meet”:
The Aramaic cognate for “negéd” could mean “shepherd,” positioning Eve as the prototype of biblical shepherd-leaders (20:27).
Shared Mankind Leadership Mandate:
Genesis 1 commands both man and woman to rule together, debunking “support” vs “lead” gender roles (21:00).
Interpreting Genesis 3:16:
Grammar and context suggest the infamous “he will rule over you” is descriptive prophecy—not commandment or divine desire (22:00–29:00).
- Quote:
  
  “I think that God is warning them and saying this will be a tendency in human history... It is up to you to try to counteract that, to try to move beyond this, to try to remedy this part of the fallen world.”
  — Dr. Rebecca Call (29:00)
Presiding as Christ Did:
To preside is to “serve as the Savior served,” focusing on jointly building trust, unity, and counteracting historical patterns of inequality (29:00).
Eve as Prototype Shepherd:
Linking Eve to subsequent biblical shepherd-leaders, including Rachel, Mary, and ultimately Christ as the Good Shepherd (30:37–33:42).
Eve as Temple/Sanctuary/Tree of Life:
Eve “is built” from a word signifying a plank or temple beam, not an anatomical rib—suggesting imagery of sanctuaries, trees of life/knowledge, and wholeness (33:42–38:41).

Gospel Lab and the Spirit of Charity

Unity and Practice:
The story of Adam and Eve as a pattern for unity in marriages, families, and wards. “Church is gospel lab”—where charity is practiced with imperfect people (38:41–42:08).
Charity as Hard/Forgiving Love:
“Charity is not the easy kind of love. Charity is the hard kind of love when there’s every reason not to do it.”
— Dr. Rebecca Call (40:20)
Embracing Imperfection:
Referencing Elder Holland, even Christ only worked with imperfect people; so should we.

Mainstream vs. LDS Views on Eve

Distinct LDS Perspective:
Mainstream Christian theology has historically regarded Eve as lesser; LDS scripture and discourse emphasize gratitude for her choice (43:00–44:41).
- Quote:
  
  “The majority of how we talk about Eve is quite different from mainstream Christianity in this sense. But there are subliminal threads that have woven through...”
  — Dr. Rebecca Call (44:30)
Cultural Drift:
LDS still experience cultural drift in how Eve/women are discussed, warranting careful separation of tradition from doctrine.

Dangers of Overcorrecting Gender Narratives

False Elevation as Reverse Problem:
Over-correcting by making women “better”/“higher” than men yields the same problems of lost agency and partnership (45:12–48:54).
- Quote:
  
  "It doesn't solve the problem to say that because women... have been repressed that we should repress the people... who've repressed them. It's the same problem. It's the same sin, just turned around."
  — Dr. Rebecca Call (45:43)
True Partnership and Agency:
Full agency and potential are realized when both genders strive together equally yoked.

Literalism and Adam & Eve

Literal vs. Figurative:
Most academics view Adam and Eve as archetypes rather than literal historical people; Dr. Call stresses that fidelity to Christ and the principles of His gospel matters more than locking to any single interpretive framework (49:26–50:37).

Concluding Reflection: Eve’s Perspective in Poetry and Song

Dr. Call’s Poetic Project:
Shares a poem and musical setting imagining Eve comforting Seth after Abel's death. The poem ties together doctrinal, linguistic, and ancient Near Eastern insights, highlighting loss, growth, unity, and parental love (51:06–58:42).
Notable Lyrics/Lines:

“O my child, you cannot remember
the glory that clothed us like embers.
Ish Isha. Together in Eden,
no questions weighed on us.
We walked hand in hand...”
— Rebecca Call, reading (52:57)
Song Performance:
Dr. Call sings the poem, moving hosts and listeners (58:42–61:19).

Memorable Quotes

Dr. Rebecca Call:

“Christ is not ashamed of us. If he were ashamed of us, he wouldn’t make covenants with us.” (03:08)
“When people read the text... they're engaging with tradition, but they are not actually engaging with the Bible.” (16:20)
“Everyone loses. Whereas when both people can be here together, working together, in the trenches together, equally yoked, that is when both have the greatest potential for expression of agency...” (48:11)
(regarding “rib”) “Never means rib anywhere else in Hebrew. It’s a construction term. Often it refers to a plank or a beam... this is not an anatomical term.” (37:13)

John Bytheway:

“We love that our Savior suits his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men. Because my 1979 world for a teenager was not the same as a 2025 world.” (05:59)

Host:

“You are not disgusting. You are not awful, you’re not gross. God loves you.” (06:20)
“Happy wife, happy life is probably not the way to go. It’s more happy God, happy life.” (48:54)

Key Timestamps

Final Reflections

The episode delivers a stirring call to:

Rethink shame and sin in the context of Christ’s Atonement and ongoing grace
Tease doctrine from tradition, especially in readings of Eve and women in scripture
Approach church life as a “Gospel Lab,” practicing real charity and unity
Embrace both men's and women’s gifts in seeking continual revelation and the fullness of the Restoration
Seek unity at every level: in marriages, families, wards, and the broader church

Dr. Call’s scholarship models how careful, faithful inquiry and inspired imagination can renew our engagement with scripture and each other.

[To, hear Dr. Call’s poem and song, see 51:06–61:19.]

Hosts and guest sign off with gratitude, emphasizing the episode’s spirit of unity and Christ-centered study.

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Genesis 1-2, Moses 2-3, Abraham 4-5 Part 2 • Dr. Rebekah Call • Jan. 12-18 • Come, Follow Me

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Summary

Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Addressing Shame and Addiction in the Church Community

Christlike Ministry: Compassion over Condemnation

Re-examining Eve’s Role: Scholarship, Translation & Theology

Eve as Shepherd and Spiritual Leader

Gospel Lab and the Spirit of Charity

Mainstream vs. LDS Views on Eve

Dangers of Overcorrecting Gender Narratives

Literalism and Adam & Eve

Concluding Reflection: Eve’s Perspective in Poetry and Song

Memorable Quotes

Key Timestamps

Final Reflections

Summary

Podcast Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Addressing Shame and Addiction in the Church Community

Christlike Ministry: Compassion over Condemnation

Re-examining Eve’s Role: Scholarship, Translation & Theology

Eve as Shepherd and Spiritual Leader

Gospel Lab and the Spirit of Charity

Mainstream vs. LDS Views on Eve

Dangers of Overcorrecting Gender Narratives

Literalism and Adam & Eve

Concluding Reflection: Eve’s Perspective in Poetry and Song

Memorable Quotes

Key Timestamps

Final Reflections