Genesis 24-33 Part 2 • Bro. Mike Harris • Mar. 2-8 • Come, Follow Me

Summary

followHIM Podcast Summary
Genesis 24-33 Part 2 • Bro. Mike Harris • Mar. 2-8 • Come, Follow Me
Hosts: Hank Smith & John Bytheway | Guest: Mike Harris
Release Date: February 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode continues an in-depth exploration of Genesis 24–33, focusing on the fraught and dramatic narrative of Jacob and Esau. Brother Mike Harris joins hosts Hank Smith and John Bytheway, delving into challenging passages and unpacking the deep scriptural, symbolic, and practical implications for Latter-day Saints. The episode centers on the themes of divine favoritism, birthright, covenant blessings, family conflict, reconciliation, and ultimately, the healing and redemptive capacity of Christlike love.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Difficult Scriptures: "Jacob Have I Loved, Esau Have I Hated"

• The episode opens with the tension in scriptures that describe God as loving Jacob and hating Esau (Malachi 1, Romans 9:13) [02:30].
  • Mike Harris explains, "If you read the text at face value, that's what it seems to suggest... It seems like the Lord really means it because he repeated it in the New Testament." [02:30]
• The group examines the Hebrew and Greek roots, noting that "hated" is an accurate translation, but proposes a deeper examination of context and symbolism.

2. Rebecca's Struggle with Her Pregnant Twins (Genesis 25)

• When Rebecca is pregnant, her twins "struggled together within her" (Genesis 25:22), which the Hebrew word “rasats” implies as violent conflict, not just playful movement.
  • "The text is explicitly trying to paint a picture that the babies, they want to kill each other. If you're listening to this in Hebrew, you're, whoa." – Mike Harris [03:53]
• The Lord tells Rebecca, "Two nations are in thy womb... and the elder shall serve the younger" (Genesis 25:23) [07:05].

3. Contrasts Between Esau and Jacob

• Esau and Jacob are contrasted in appearance, temperament, and behaviors.
  • Esau: Red, hairy, "cunning hunter," passionate, impulsive, outdoorsman.
  • Jacob: "Plain man, dwelling in tents," civilized, even-tempered, homebody.
• Symbolism: Esau’s red hair connected to his temper; Jacob’s “smoothness” to his civility [12:04].
• The motif of favoritism is shown in parental love (Isaac favors Esau, Rebecca favors Jacob) [13:11].

4. The Birthright and Its Spiritual Significance

• In the ancient world, birthright usually meant a double portion and leadership, but in scripture, it represents the full measure of the Abrahamic covenant (spiritual blessings and responsibilities) [09:59, 18:06].
• Mike Harris clarifies: “The birthright included all the blessings and responsibilities of the Abrahamic covenant... The Lord doesn’t want to just give us a double portion. He wants to give us everything he has.” [20:11]

5. Exchange of the Birthright: Esau Sells to Jacob

• Esau, driven by appetite, sells his birthright for stew. The Hebrew word for “feed me” is coarse, emphasizing Esau’s bestiality and disregard for holy things [14:37].
  • “He’s taking the food and just shoving it in his mouth... like he’s this animal. He’s totally spitting on the birthright blessing.” – Mike Harris [16:31]
• Discussion on how many, spiritually, “sell their birthright” for temporary pleasure and avoid covenant responsibilities.

6. Inclusivity of the Birthright

• Biblical and modern prophets teach that covenant blessings are available to all who embrace covenant living, not just literal firstborns (Exodus 4, President Nelson 2024) [23:38].
  • “The firstborn birthright blessing can refer to everyone who’s wanted to make covenant, male and female.” – Harris [23:40]
• Parallels drawn to Lehi’s blessing of Laman, Lemuel, and Jacob in 2 Nephi; spiritual firstborn status is about covenant keeping, not birth order [25:24].

7. Symbol and Hyperbole: Why "God Hates Esau"

• Esau becomes a type representing those outside the covenant—the "godless and jealous individual who rejects the covenant." God’s “hate” is hyperbole, dramatizing the spiritual tragedy of covenant loss [29:08].
  • "If there's anything that God of heaven hates, it's when people spit upon their covenants." – Mike Harris [29:49]

8. Jacob’s Exile and Return: Reconciliation with Esau

• After deceiving Isaac, Jacob flees and prospers in Haran, but the Lord commands him to return to the “covenant land,” even at great risk [34:58].
  • “You need to be willing to die if needs be. But you’ve got to be in the covenant.” – Harris [36:09]
• Jacob sends an extremely deferential, almost supplicatory, message and a large “present” (mincha—also a word for temple offerings) to Esau [38:40, 44:58]. Jacob's strategy is to demonstrate humility and seek reconciliation, possibly even offering to share or return the covenant blessings.

9. Jacob’s Wrestle—Transformation and Temple Symbolism

• Jacob’s night-time wrestling is interpreted as a sacred, temple-like encounter culminating in the new name “Israel” [47:55–49:08].
  • “When you can go slow, there are little beautiful things to be found. If you can speak the Hebrew, you can even see more.” – John Bytheway [32:39]
• Symbolic language parallels rituals of sacred embrace, name, blessing, and seeing God (Peniel = “the face of God”) [49:08]. It’s an experiential preparation for reconciliation.

10. Esau and Jacob: The Miraculous Embrace

• “Jacob bowed himself to the ground seven times” (symbolizing complete humility) as he approached Esau [52:10].
• Esau unexpectedly "ran to meet him, and embraced him and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept" (Genesis 33:4) [55:05]:
  • “Esau is the one running…that was not expected, Mr. Redheaded Hothead.” – Mike Harris [55:08]
• The offer of gifts/animals is interpreted as much an offering of the covenant itself as a gesture of reparations.

11. Open-Ended Restoration and Faith in Healing

• The story ends with ambiguity: Did Esau truly accept the covenant? It’s left as an invitation for modern readers not to give up on family prodigals and to see potential for reconciliation [59:13, 68:50].
  • “You don’t give up on them. Those Esau’s can become like Heavenly Father, not just receive the covenant, but they are going to be exalted.” – Harris [58:31]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Spiritual Significance:
  • “God’s desire is to help you become all that he is. That’s what this birthright is about.” – Mike Harris [20:11]
• On Divine Favoritism:
  • “We all sometimes go through this despair. But then there’s this one firstborn in scripture that never once went for the cup of soup… Jesus Christ.” – Harris [31:43]
• On Reconciliation:
  • “If this family’s going to be healed, it’s going to involve the Lord. I have got to go to the Lord and say, I don’t know how to heal this family, so help me.” – Bytheway [51:33]
• Parallel with Modern Experience:
  • President Nelson’s story of seeking reconciliation with a family after failed heart surgeries decades earlier, paralleling Jacob’s humility: “[He] literally knelt in front of Jimmy, now 88 years old, and had a heart to heart talk with him…” [59:13–63:12]
• On Watching and Learning Forgiveness:
  • “I have to wonder if Joseph of Egypt learned how to forgive and reconcile from this moment.” – Bytheway [67:28]

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Important Timestamps

• The “God hates Esau” problem: [02:30–07:01]
• Rebecca’s struggle and the symbolism of twins: [03:53–09:25]
• Esau and Jacob’s character contrast: [09:25–14:13]
• Birthright, covenant significance: [18:06–21:37]
• Esau sells the birthright: [14:37–18:06]
• Inclusivity of birthright, modern applications: [23:38–28:14]
• Esau as a type, hyperbole in biblical language: [28:24–29:51]
• Jacob’s letter, return home, and fear of Esau: [34:58–39:01]
• Jacob’s wrestling/temple symbolism: [47:55–49:08]
• Miraculous reconciliation: [52:10–58:31]
• President Nelson’s reconciliation story: [59:13–63:12]
• Learning reconciliation for future generations (Joseph of Egypt): [67:28–67:48]

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Flow and Tone

The episode is a blend of scholarly analysis, personal reflection, and pastoral encouragement, often using humor, relatable family stories, and references to modern prophets. There’s candor about the messiness of scriptural families and hope in God’s capacity to heal, forgive, and exalt.

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Conclusion

This deep dive into Genesis 24–33 uncovers ancient tensions that resonate with modern lives: sibling rivalry, parental favoritism, missteps, spiritual inheritance, and—above all—God’s enduring love and capacity to heal broken families. Through careful language study, typology, and connection to modern teachings, the episode invites listeners to slow down in their scripture study, see themselves in these messy stories, and trust in the healing and reconciling power of the covenant and of Jesus Christ.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to part two with brother Michael Harris. Genesis 24:33.

[B]

Mike, this has been fantastic so far. John and I both have our chapter 24 covered in notes. We've had you for a while and have only hit this one chapter, so let's keep going. What else do you want to look at in this lesson?

[C]

There's some problematic, difficult verses we're going to hit. The Lord repeatedly says that he loves Jacob but hates Esau. I mean, hates. Maybe God plays favorites. You're my favorite, and I don't like you. I mean, if you read the text at face value, that's what it seems to suggest. It reminds me of a few Christmases ago. My oldest daughter gave me a mug, a present. Here it is. I don't know if our audience can see it. I know most of them are probably just listening, but I'll read it for you, Dad. I love how we don't even need to say it out loud that I'm your favorite child, Luisna, or we call her Lou. She gave it to me. Kids are always like, you're playing favorites. And then the typical parent response, no, I don't have favorites. I love you all. Well, sometimes you might feel like there are days. There are days, yeah. In the Old Testament, God declared in Malachi, chapter one, I, the Lord loved Jacob, and I have hated Esau. Some think that God didn't mean it. They're like, well, what does the original Hebrew say for hated? So I looked it up. It's a good translation. You can say, he hated Esau or he scorned him. It still conveys the idea. It's a good translation. And it seems like the Lord really means it because he repeated it in the New Testament. In Romans, chapter 9, verse 13, it says, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. And if you look at the Greek, it's a good translation. You could say, I've hated Esau, or I've despised or detest Esau. But then some people are like, well, we believe the Bible be the word of God as far as it's translated correctly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So as long as I don't like it. Yeah.

[C]

Because people are like, I know God doesn't hate anybody, so there's got to be a reason. I like how they're looking for that reason. But guess what? Joseph Smith didn't change anything. He was okay with that language. Why is Joseph Smith okay with it? Even the Book of Mormon says in Helaman chapter 15. And we know that's a good translation. And I can find at least 12 other occurrences in the Bible where God explicitly says he hates people. Or an individual, a group of people or an individual. We need to unpack this. We got to go back to Isaac and Rebecca. They're married. And Rebecca and Isaac, what do they want more than anything? They want to be able to have a family. Rebecca wants to have a child, but she's barren for 20 years. Then she finally gets pregnant, and you would expect her to be like, oh, what a blessing. But the family drama begins immediately. Right, While she's still pregnant. Yeah. Let's go to Genesis 25:22. And the children struggled together within her. And she said, if it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the Lord. Let's unpack this. Rebekah is pregnant with Esau and Jacob. These are twins. And who's going to be the firstborn? Esau. And then Jacob's going to be the younger by, I don't know, 30 seconds or whatever it might have been. Notice the word here. And the children struggled. Struggled comes from the Hebrew word rasats. That's a violent word. It's a word that is used to describe warfare battles where you're trying to kill your enemy. We see all the time where a woman's pregnant and the baby starts kicking. They're like, oh, look, they're kicking. It's all cute and everything. No, the text is explicitly trying to paint a picture that the babies, they want to kill each other. If you're listening to this in Hebrew, you're, whoa. Why are you using that word to describe the babies? This isn't cute. Kicking around. They're. They're really trying to kill each other. That's really strange. That makes no sense.

[B]

The contemporary English version, before Rebecca gave birth, she knew she was going to have twins because she could feel them inside her fighting each other. Finally, she asked the Lord why her twins were fighting. These two don't like each other already.

[C]

I love that you did that, Hank. You can just feel in this verse. So I woke up early, and I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to go do some last second preparation. And I was reading this, and I saw something that had never seen before. 22. And the children struggled together within her. So they're trying to kill each other. And notice what she does. It's what any good mom would do. This is what your wife does. This is what my wife does. What does she do next? She said, if it be so, what why am I? Thus, a better translation is, why is this happening. Why are my kids not getting along? They're supposed to be each other's best friends. I have visions of raising up a righteous posterity where they're going to church, reading scriptures, serving missions. Right from the get go, they're fighting each other. There's contention all around. This is the worry of any good mother and father for that matter. And you get it right while they're still in the womb. Which is kind of bizarre.

[B]

This is a different translation. Not sure how right on it is, but I love it. It's called God's word translation. She says, if it's like this now, what will become of me? What is my life gonna be like if this is already how it is?

[C]

Yeah. I've been told all my life that the most important thing is for me to be a mother, a covenant keeper, and to raise a righteous. Like what? This is not the gospel plan. And that's what Rebecca's feeling right here.

[B]

I'm not so sure I want to be pregnant. Yeah.

[C]

The Lord responds to her concern and says in verse 23, the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels, and the one people shall be stronger than the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger. That verse is so key. That's an important clue to unpack why God would ever say, I hate Esau. Notice how he refers to Esau and how he refers to Jacob here, not just as an individual, but here as a nation. We'll come back to this in the end, but that's important for us to remember now. Verse 24. And when Rebekah's days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. 25. This is weird. And the first came out red all over, like a hairy garment. They call his name Esau. After that came his brother out and his hand took hold on Esau's hill. And his name was called Jacob. And Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them. Let's talk about that. Esau comes out. And then right after, here comes Jacob. And he's still not even born yet, but he's reaching out and he's grabbing Esau and it's almost like he's trying to tug him back in, like get him back of the line. I want to be the firstborn. It's conveying this imagery that even from the womb, Jacob wants what? The birthright, covenant, blessings. Being close to the Lord is everything to me. I'll do anything for it. Esau Getting back of the line, good Bible scholars would say that this phrase, to grab somebody by the heel, when they study the ancient Near Eastern texts from other cultures, to grab the heel often expresses a desire for status or for acquiring property.

[B]

Like, almost trip you up.

[C]

Isn't that what the covenant is? The Lord wants to make us royalty. He wants to give us high status in his kingdom. He wants to give us property. And we're not just talking about one or two acres. He wants to have us inherit the earth, which will eventually become the celestial kingdom. That's what the text is expressing by having him reach out and grab Esau by the hill.

[B]

We have to understand genres. They're writing things for purpose. There's symbols behind everything.

[C]

Yeah, we can't write, reinforce that or restate that enough as we go through this, especially in the Old Testament. Now let's talk about the firstborn blessing. I imagine our audience has heard this explained many times, so I'll be quick. But, like, we gotta look at it through the ancient Near Eastern lens. Regardless of your race, it was typical that the male that was firstborn, when the father died, then he would receive a double portion and he would become the ruler and he would inherit this extra amount of wealth so he could take care of the family or the clan. Okay, that's great, but the way it's portrayed in Scripture is similar, but it's in a significant way different. The Lord takes the culture of the people and their traditions, but then he builds on it and he enhances it. In Scripture, when you see the birthright, it means something more. That's what we got to look at now. Stay tuned and we'll get to it. But notice here, verse 27, now it says, and the boys grew, so they're growing up. And Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field. And Jacob was a plain man dwelling in tents. The text is portraying two individuals with clashing personalities. Complete different personality types. Esau is the oldest firstborn, Jacob, youngest. Esau is red and hairy everywhere. What's Jacob? He's plain. Red can symbolize also, like, he's got this temper. He's a hothead. He's a redhead. The Bible describes him as plain, which in the Hebrew, better translation would be, he's civilized, he's well mannered, he's even tempered.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

Harry is Esau. And Jacob is described later on as smooth. You remember when he has to go in and get the final blessing. But Esau is a hairy man. And so Rebecca says, you're going to have to put on some fur because you're so smooth. You got these opposites. Then Esau is described as a cunning hunter and a man of the field. He loves the outdoors. And then the opposite, Jacob is a man who dwells in tents. I love the indoors. I'm a homebody. And these opposites, this contrast, these foils. Continue. Esau is whose favorite. Look at verse 28. And Isaac loved Esau because he did eat of his venison. But Rebekah loved Jacob. Oh, they're playing favorites. It's not just God who plays favorites now. It's this amazing, righteous gospel living couple, Isaac and Rebecca.

[A]

And Rebecca.

[B]

This is funny. This is very human.

[C]

And you're like, so, Isaac, why is your son Esau the favorite? He's like, oh, he goes out and he hunts, and he brings home the meat, and he puts it in the Dutch oven and is like, I love it. And then the contrast is, what does Jacob cook? Not the nice, delicious, savory venison in the Dutch oven. He makes soup. A mess of pottage. I got a cup of noodles. I got some Kraft macaroni and cheese. These two, over and over again, are completely different. They're the opposites. I think that's an intentional rhetorical device that the. Well, we traditionally believe that Moses crafted this. I think it's. It goes back to genre.

[B]

Is creating a contrast between these two.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you think, Mike, I can hold on to the revelation that Rebecca received. The elder shall serve the younger. And I wonder if she remembers that as time goes on, that the Lord said, jacob, this younger, the one that I've. That the Lord has chosen. And maybe she's moving forward with that, and Isaac doesn't know that.

[C]

I'm glad you pointed that out, Hank. Yeah. Okay. Well, they grow up, and then they have this interesting encounter. Verse 30, 34. And again, if you run the fact checker on this, I don't know if this is strict, straightforward history, but let's go and read it as history, and then we'll unpack the possible symbolism and the theological intent. Verse 29. Esau came from the field, and he was faint. I guess he didn't catch anything. He didn't kill anything, so he's super hungry. Verse 30 and E. Esau said to Jacob, feed me. I pray thee now feed me. You read it in English, it sounds okay. But if you read in the original Hebrew, feed me uses a word that's vulgar and coarse. Esau is being portrayed as one with. How do I say it? Bestial? Appetites. He is concerned about physical pleasures, and he's very vulgar about it. Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage, for I am faint. Therefore was his name called Edom. And Jacob said, sell me this day thy birthright. You see what he's doing? It just sounds like he's trying to swindle his brother out of the blessings of the covenant. You know, this birthright blessing, you're like, what? The commandment is thou shalt love thy neighbor as herself, not thou shalt swindle thy brother. You know, and you're like, what? But that seems what he's doing. Esau said, verse 32, behold, I am at the point to die. And that sounds like an exaggeration. You really think historically that Jacob would be like, I'm not going to give you my cup of soup. I'm going to sit here and watch you die?

[B]

Kind of reminds me of my kids. Right? I'm starving. No, you're not.

[C]

Esau said, behold, I am at the point to die. What profit shall this birthright do to me? 33. And Jacob said, swear to me this day you got to make an oath. And Esau swear unto Jacob. And Esau sold his birthright unto Jacob, verse 34. Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils. And he had notice. The three things that Esau does. This is shocking. Esau did eat, drink, rose up and went his way. Sorry. Four things. It's just like. It's painting a picture. He's taking the food and he's just shoving it in his mouth, and it's dripping down, and he's burping off to the side like. Like he's this animal. He's totally spitting on the birthright blessing. And he's walking. What do I care? Totally flippant, casual. He's just in this animal. Esau despised his birthright. Okay. Just absolutely shocking that he would do that.

[B]

Jacob is swindling him. But maybe Jacob also realizes that Esau doesn't care about it.

[C]

Maybe this is why God hates Esau. Because he's a slob and he's spitting upon the birthright. No, but we know that God doesn't hate people even, because, let's be honest, you and I and our listeners, sometimes we're. Esau.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, we've all fallen short of the glory of God. And there are times that we do and we say things we know we shouldn't, and we let physical appetite rule the day. Does God hate us then? Of course not. We still got to Figure out why would God say he hates him? We read it through this historical lens. We touched on how the birthright really represents the covenant. The Old Testament manual for seminary teachers throughout the world that's passed through curriculum has this beautiful phrase that I think is so helpful to see the true intention, or I should say the primary intention, the exegetical meaning of the text. It says, quote, the birthright included all the blessings and responsibilities of the Abrahamic covenant. What I think the text wants us to see, it's not that Esau, sure he wants the birthright. Historically, he would want the money, he would want the power. But what he's spitting upon is the spiritual aspects. So in the ancient near east, he would want that birthright from the culture, tradition, the power and the money. But as birthright is used in scriptures where it refers to the covenant blessings of the heavenly covenant, that's what he's spitting on. And that's what this text is primarily pointing out.

[A]

I'm hearing too that I want all the blessings of the birthright, but I don't want the responsibilities. Could I say it that way?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

That sounds like a lot of work.

[A]

Yeah, that sounds like you're putting a lot on me here.

[C]

I can't say no to a calling. If bishop calls me and I have to go to the temple regularly and maybe serve a full time mission and 10% tithing. No, I'm spitting on that. I'm not interested. I'm into going boating on Sunday and I want to keep my money and I want to have a good time. Plus I'm hungry and I'm hungry.

[B]

I'm hungry right now. Let's go.

[C]

This is so important now in scriptures, like I was alluding to the birthright in scriptures, the Lord doesn't want to just give the firstborn male a double portion. Notice in Doctrine and covenants, section 76, verse 54 and 55, it says the church of the firstborn. Firstborn. Are they into whose hands the Father has given double portion? No, all things. And you see that in Genesis 25:5 it states that Abraham gave Isaac double portion. Nope, he gave Isaac. It says everything he had. God doesn't want us give us a double portion. He wants to give us everything he has. John and Hank, it's not that God just wants to give us all the things that he has. It's even bigger than that. And you're like, wait, how can he give us more than all that he has? I love how Brother Brad Wilcox explained in General Conference. He said it would Be easy for Heavenly Father to simply give you all that he has. His desire is to help you become all that he is. That's what this birthright is about, at least as found in scripture.

[B]

Yeah, Esau has no interest in that.

[C]

And that's manifested in chapter 26 where Esau marries two Hittite women. He marries outside the covenant, which was

[B]

so crucial to Abraham when we started, that we marry in the covenant, live in the promised land. Keep telling us the story here, Mike. What happens to these two after this?

[C]

I also think if Brad Wilcox could go back and get in a time machine and if he could have a one on one with Esau as he's trying to decide do I want to be on this covenant path or not. Brad Wilcox, he just talks with so much energy. Imagine he goes on to say in that same talk, I know he would have said this to Esau and he's, he's saying it to all of us. He says, don't sell your birthright for a mess of pottage. Don't trade everything for nothing. Don't let the world change you when you were born to change the world. Esau, like a lot of our loved ones, our friends and family, sometimes us, we're selling it. We're letting the world change us. We're tempted with that every day. This text is beautifully inviting us to know how to navigate, to be in the world, but not of the world.

[B]

Brad's going to be our guest next week.

[C]

I bet there are some of our listeners out there that are thinking about this. Like, wait a minute though. The birthright was for the oldest, the firstborn. I'm not the firstborn. I'm the youngest in my family. Or I'm the middle child. That feels kind of exclusive. Well, people sometimes miss this gem. Exodus, chapter 4. The Lord says, Israel is my firstborn son.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

President Russell m. Nelson in 2024 said, quote, Priesthood keys give us the authority to extend all of the blessings promised to Abraham to every covenant keeping man and woman. At least as found in the scripture context. The firstborn birthright blessing can refer to everyone who's wanted to make covenant, male and female. Later on in October 2022, President Nelson continued. He said God wants to connect all people to the covenant he made anciently with Abraham. Now, I find this fascinating. I don't think it's a coincidence. Lehi's about to die. He said in 2 Nephi 1:28, he has Laman and Lemuel come and he says to them, check this out. And now my son Laman and also Lemuel. Behold, if ye will hearken unto the voice of Nephi, ye shall not perish. And if you will hearken unto Nephi, I leave unto you a blessing. Here it is. Yea, even my first blessing. I mean, I don't think Lehi is dumb. He knows, and he's seen Laman and Lemuel repeatedly murmur that they want to kill Nephi. Why do they want him dead? It's the same reason Cain wanted to kill Abel. It wasn't so he could just have the sheep. This story is all throughout Scripture. They want the younger righteous brother dead so they can have the gold, the silver, and the precious things and the right to rule.

[B]

It's pure jealousy as well. I just hate that you are this person.

[C]

It almost seems like it's Lehi's dying wish in his plea to Laman and Lemuel. Like, hey, you don't need to get jealous here. Now, Nephi does have the spiritual mantle here. You need to hearken to him. But if you'll be faithful to the Lord in your covenants, God can give you everything. You can enjoy the blessings that really matter when it comes to the birthright. Laman and Lemuel, what do they do? They do the same thing that Esau does. They spit upon the covenant. They're like, no, thanks. Lehi continues. This idea of firstborn birthright seems to be in the forefront of his mind right before he dies. Covenants matter. Look at two Nephi two 1. He brings forth Jacob. Notice how he addresses him. This is fascinating. He says, I speak unto Jacob. Thou art my firstborn. Firstborn in the wilderness. Jacob is not going to sell his birthright for a mess of pottage. It seems like Lehi is underscoring, you are a firstborn son. I know you're not the firstborn biologically in this family, but for all intents and purposes, in God's eyes, you are firstborn. And you are entitled to not just the double portion, but to everything. Good job, son. I'm super proud of you. Identity matters, right? We're children of God, children of the Covenant and disciples of Christ. And I think that's what Lehi is reinforcing here. You are a Covenant keeper, Jacob, you are firstborn. Laman, Lemuel, you can be covenant keepers. You can be firstborns. There's one more in the Book of Mormon. Lehi then brings his grandkids. Oh, I just became a grandpa eight months ago. This one's just tender to me. These are layman's Children, notice what Lehi says to them in 2 Nephi 4:3. He says, Behold my sons and my daughters, who are the sons and the daughters of my firstborn. He still wants to call Laman a firstborn son. Your true identity, whether you realize it or not, you stinker, is you are a firstborn. You are of the covenant now. You need to awake and arise from the dust. And come on, you can do this, son, and do it for the sake of your kids and my grandkids. That is Lehi's dying wish, which is the same wish for any righteous mom, dad, grandpa or grandma. Isn't that what we want more than anything?

[A]

Yeah, it's all that matters. You stop thinking about, what did you say before Bitcoin. And this is what you think about?

[C]

Well, it's time to solve the mystery then. Maybe our listeners are already like, okay, I get it. Why does God repeatedly say, I love Jacob, but I hate Esau? Let's tie this up. Of course God loves everyone perfectly. But Esau is serving as a symbol for the godless and jealous individual who rejects the covenant. Esau is being used typologically as a type of those that are corrupt and are off the covenant path. Remember it said there are two nations.

[B]

Genesis 25:23.

[C]

These nations could be categorized, generally speaking, as this nation. They're outside the covenant. And this other nation is in the covenant. Jacob Israel. He symbolizes those who embrace God's covenant. All we're saying is what does God absolutely love? Love, love, love. I love when people keep covenants. He's going to use that word hate. He's going to use hyperbole to dramatically rhetorically get his point across. If there's anything that God of heaven hates, it's when people spit upon their covenants.

[B]

I've seen that God hates things that hurt the most people, right? When he uses that word, abomination, it's usually this is what hurts people the most.

[A]

Good point.

[C]

Now this is so tough. Recently I had a former institute student sent me a direct message. I even wrote down the time because it was on my phone and it showed. 1:39am he was asking me a question. Basically he says, I'm falling in love with a non member girl. And he just wanted to know, is that okay for me to date her and like, I can marry her, right? She's a good girl. I mean, these are typical situations that we face all the time with our loved ones. I think as we go carefully through these Genesis chapters, we just see what the prophets are telling Us all the time. Of course, there are absolutely wonderful people throughout the world of all different faiths and religions. The Lord is asking us. He's pleading with us, please keep your covenants with me first and foremost, and then just trust me. I can take care of you. And I know that's easy for me to sit here on a podcast and say that. I know there's some tricky situations out there and I do not want to pass judgment on any marriage. I know we're all doing the best we can. I do know that for our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, covenants matter. Notice all throughout Scripture, how many firstborns don't sell their birthright for some macaroni and cheese.

[B]

Honestly, it's hard to think of one of the oldest that actually does it besides Jesus.

[C]

I guess that's where we're going, Hank. The Bible, the Old Testament, makes a deliberate attempt to show that over and over again, especially in Genesis. But there's other places too, where the firstborn does not get it. And I think it's the Lord's way of saying to us, we're covenant Israel. You're all Esau. We would say, you've all been born in the covenant. Esau was born in the covenant. You all are stinkers. You all have been selling your birthright for a mess of pottage. We all do that. We all sometimes go through this despair. But then there's this one firstborn in scripture that never once went for the cup of soup. It's the firstborn, Jesus Christ. I think that's an intentional, deliberate theological attempt of the Bible to point to the hope that we have in him.

[B]

Bike, this has been fantastic. You've brought these people to life for me. I like how you read scripture. John likes to quote Joseph Fielding McConkie that we read scripture too fast. And when you can go slow, there are little beautiful things to be found. If you can speak the Hebrew, sounds like you can even see more.

[A]

Wow. Yeah.

[B]

Let's the three of us walk through these next chapters because I'm certain there are listeners out there wondering the same thing. Perhaps Rebecca was wondering is right. Can. Can this ever be healed? What happens? Because what we have happen next, and we talk about this actually in our Things to Keep in mind section with Dr. Ross Baron. Essentially, Rebecca and Jacob work together to take the blessing from Esau that Isaac had meant for Esau. And there is a major falling out between them in which Jacob has to flee. His brother is going to kill him.

[C]

So he goes away, which is an exact parallel of what account? In the Book of Mormon. Yeah, Lehi dies and immediately. Lame, lame. Now we're going to kill you because there's no way over my dead body that you're going to be in charge of us. You do not get the birthright. It's the same story.

[B]

I feel bad for Rebecca when she says to Isaac, I am weary of my life. I wonder how many parents have felt that way, how many mothers. We will be talking numerous times on the show this year about Jacob and his change and his wrestling with the Lord and him receiving the name of Israel. After that, he's going to meet his Rachel. He's going to marry not just Rachel, but Leah, Bilhah, Zilpah, have these many sons. In the middle of all this, there's a reconciliation that needs to take place. Doesn't it begin in 31 where the Lord says it's time to go home?

[C]

Exactly. And I'm glad you landed on that. Look at verse 3, chapter 31, verse 3. Here's the divine command. I mean, life was good, you guys. He's spending 20 years up here in the north country, outside the land of Canaan, outside the Covenant land. He's got the Bitcoin and the Tesla. He's happily married. He's got a beautiful family. They're going to Costa Vita every week. They go once a year to Disneyland. Life is great. And the scriptures say that he has a lot of wealth, he's enjoying the blessings, then his world falls apart. Here in Genesis 31:3, the Lord said unto Jacob, returned unto the land, and we got to underscore the definite article. I mean, not that you've been a bad boy, you've been righteous, you've been doing good. But you've got to get back to the Covenant Land, which would be all fine and dandy, but who's there waiting for him?

[B]

Yeah, but my brother's there. He didn't exactly have good feelings for me the last time we saw each other.

[C]

Remember? He's got this anger. And I know it's been 20 years, and I guess Jacob, from a historical perspective, doesn't even know if his brother Esau is even alive. But can you imagine what the Lord's asking? It would be hard enough if Jacob had to go back. Just he himself and maybe himself died. But he's being asked to go with his family, his wives and his children. Now, this is a permanent move. The Lord's asking him to put his neck on the line. You need to be willing to die if needs be. But You've got to be in the covenant.

[B]

And he does it. Verse 17 says, Then Jacob rose up, set his sons and his wives upon camels. Here we go.

[C]

Actually, before we do that, Jacob, he's not wudami. So he decides to write Esau a note. And this note is fascinating. If you're Esau and you're going to get this note or this letter from your brother, how would you react? This is what the note says, and it's in Genesis 32, 4, 5. This is what he said. Dear Esau, thy servant Jacob saith, thus, I have lived with Laban, his father in law, and stayed in Haran until now. And I have oxen and asses, flocks and menservants and women servants. And I have sent to tell my Lord that I my find grace in thy sight. Love or hug, hug, kis, kiss or sincerely Jacob. He writes it, and then he gets a trusted servant and he says, hey, I don't know if he's still alive. Will you go see if you can find him? Go 500 miles, and if you find him, deliver this letter and then come back and tell me what happens. We know that Esau does get the letter and he reads it, but we don't know what his reaction is. What do you think his reaction would be? Any thoughts, John or Hank?

[B]

We don't know what's happened to Esau. Don't we know he lived with his mother and his mother died?

[C]

And yeah, Jacob wouldn't have been there for the funeral.

[B]

Has he turned? Has he calmed? Or is he holding on to that anger in a way of, I can take out 20 years of anger on you right now.

[C]

There's one of two ways that he could interpret this. Because notice Jacob intentionally is mentioning all this abundance of animals. Is this like nana, nana, boo, boo. This is what you wanted. You wanted this double portion. You wanted the wealth because that's what these animals symbolize. That's the bitcoin. He's like, look at what I got. You could look at it that way. There's other words and phrases that indicate that is not what he's trying. He's not trying to rub it in his face. He starts a letter, dear Esau, thy servant Jacob. He's saying, I'm your servant. At the end he says, I, I have sent to tell who? My Lord. That word lord is lowercase L, but sometimes it's capital L. It's the same word. He's addressing him as, not only am I your servant, but you're my master. Notice the last phrase, that I may find grace in thy sight. If you look at every time that appears in the Hebrew Bible, find grace in thy sight. That is a formal expression that is used when someone is making a request of a superior who has higher authority. At first blush, we read that and we might. Okay, it's a nice letter. But this, in the original Hebrew, is saturated with respectful language. Esau, you're my superior. He's being very deferential to Esau, and that's clear. And even scholars will say it's almost like he's trying to tell Esau, I know you got a beef with me. You're mad at me because of the drama regarding the birthright, the firstborn blessing. I'm willing to give you all these things to compensate you. I just want us to bury the hatchet. Let's smoke the peace pipe. That's what this letter is all about. The servant goes. He comes back and Jacob's like, did you find Esau? Yes, I did. Did you give him the letter? I did. Did he read it? He did. What did he say? Oh, yeah, he responded. He has a message for you. It's in verse six. He says, he's coming to meet you. And you can just see Jacob. He does want to smoke the peace pipe. He says, no, no, you interrupted me. I didn't finish. He's coming to meet you with 400 men. He's bringing his boys. Jacob, what does he do immediately? Verse 12, he falls on his knees and he prays, God, deliver me. I pray thee from the hand of my brother. For thou said, lord, I will surely make thy seed as the sand of the sea. But if you don't intervene, my seed is going to be buried in the sands of the sea. You've got to intervene. We're toast here. This prayer is absolutely one of desperation. We've all had those moments. It was kind of like when I Woke up at 4am this morning, so nervous and excited about this podcast. My prayer is a little bit more earnest this morning. I'm like, please help me not to make a fool of myself. Don't let me embarrass people, my wife and family. And, you know, there's been other more life and death situations where sometimes our prayers are more earnest, where we're. That's what's going on here. And when we reach that level, I love what President Russell M. Nelson taught us. He says, quote, when you reach up for the Lord's power in your life with that same intensity that a drowning person has when grasping and gasping for air. Power from Jesus Christ will be yours. And we're going to see that happen. That's what's going on here. And the Lord's going to give him power. So what happens next? Jacob, I think he got inspiration. Genesis, chapter 32, verses 14 and 15. He decides to send Esau what's called a present. That's in verse 13, actually. He says, I'm going to send a present to Esau. I sent him a note, but now I'm going to send him a present. And he's going to send this with his servants. What's the present? Well, 200 she goats, 20. He goats 200 ewes, 20 rams, 30 camels with their colts, 40 kine, 10 bulls, 20 she asses, and 10 male donkeys. It's like I'm trying to compensate. I'm not just giving you lip service when I wrote you that letter. I'm really willing to give is key to note that in Scripture, herds, cattle and flocks don't just indicate wealth, but also covenant blessings. In Deuteronomy, the Lord repeatedly declares that if his people Israel keep the covenant, then he will multiply their cattle herds and their flocks. For example, we see that in Deuteronomy 7, 11, 13. So does Jacob merely want to appease Esau with the riches of this gift of animals? Or is Jacob being a missionary and trying to share the blessings of the covenant? So they travel. I don't know how many miles they traveled because Esau is also coming. Maybe they met halfway. But the servants take all these herds and they're going to give these to Esau. Now, here's. That's key. Tell me what you think, brothers. The Hebrew word for present is minka. And minka repeatedly appears in context when somebody approaches the Lord to give him an offering, an animal sacrifice, typically in the tabernacle of Moses or in the temple of Solomon. You see it in Leviticus, chapter 6. It says, the sons of Aaron shall offer the offering the mincha before the Lord. You see it with Cain and abel in Genesis 4. The Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering his minkah.

[A]

Right?

[C]

It's interesting that this is being couched as. He's not just treating Esau as, oh, you're my superior. He's treating Esau as if he's God. That's shocking. It's one thing to show some respect, but this is next level. You give the Lord the very best. This is unbelievable gift that he's given him.

[A]

It just keeps going in these verses And I'm thinking, in that day and age, that's a lot of wealth.

[C]

Why is he doing this? He tells you in verse 20, Jacob said, by giving this present, I will appease Esau with the present, the mincha that goeth before me. And afterward he says, I will see his face. That phrase, I will see his face is a term generally used for entering in the presence of royalty. Then he says, and then perhaps Esau will accept of me. The present gets delivered. It's now the Eve before he's going to see esau and his 400 men. And he still doesn't know if he's like, are we going to get slaughtered here? We are at the mercy of our enemy here. Esau, there's a wrestle. Initially it sounds like he's wrestling with an angel. But as the narrative unfolds, you realize that really this is a very sacred temple like endowment, like passing through the bell, going into the slush room. This is an embrace, a wrestling with the Lord. President Nelson has talked about that. He said, quote, these sacred temple rites are ancient. To me, that antiquity is thrilling. In another evidence of their authenticity here in Genesis 32, 24 through 31, that is the single best text that I've ever come across to understand what is going on in the temple. When I go through the veil and go into the slush room. There are clear and powerful parallels. Hank and John. If you guys are cool with it, I want to try an experiment. I want to divide up this next section in parts. I'm going to read the narrator parts. John, you read every part where it's the Lord speaking. Hank, you can read where Jacob is speaking. Verse 24. Jacob was left alone, and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. When Jacob saw that he prevailed not against the man, Jacob touched the hollow of his thigh. And the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint as he wrestled with the man. Verse 26. And the Lord said, let me go,

[A]

for the day breaketh.

[C]

And Jacob said, I will not let

[B]

thee go, except thou bless me.

[C]

And the Lord said unto Jacob, what is thy name? And Jacob said, jacob. And the Lord said, thy name shall

[A]

be called no more Jacob, but Israel. For as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

[C]

And Jacob asked the Lord and said,

[B]

tell me, I pray thee, thy name.

[C]

And the Lord said, wherefore is it

[A]

that thou dost ask after my name?

[C]

And the Lord blessed Jacob there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, for I Have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. And as Jacob passed over Penuel, the sun rose upon him and he halted upon his thigh. Thoughts as we went through that and read that, there's a good little temple prep.

[B]

You learn to speak temple language in certain sections of the Scriptures. And that's a little temple simple language for you, where you start to see. It's very similar to the brother of Jared, where the brother of Jared approaches the Lord, sees his hand, has a conversation, and then is invited into his presence.

[C]

This sounds very similar in verse 25. It's interesting that it says that Jacob touched the hollow of the Lord's thigh. There's all kinds of commentary on that. Touched. The Hebrew word for touch can also convey to touch violently or to strike, or I would say thrust. Remember when the Savior was resurrected and he appears to Thomas and Thomas says, I'm not going to believe. And the Lord invites him tooth, thrust his finger into his side. It's that same imagery. And you see that also with The Nephites in 3 Nephi chapter 11, when they're brought into the presence of Jesus Christ, he invites them to thrust. It's that same language. I think we're getting that right here. Into his side. We're having this holy embrace. Then you're like, but he doesn't say into my side here. He says, into the hollow of his thigh. Hollow comes from the Hebrew word that can sometimes also refer to the palm of your hand. Thigh can sometimes refer. Yes, it can refer to the loin area, but it can sometimes also refer to a side. I don't want to be overly dogmatic saying that's the way we need to interpret it, but I think it's worth consideration. Another nice thing to point out is the deliberate word play going on here. The Hebrew word for wrestle is avak, and the Hebrew word for embrace is kavak. What's going to happen in the next chapter? The very next day? There's going to be a holy embrace. That's key. It's not a wrestle that's going on. It's this embrace.

[B]

There's this wrestle with the Lord before this miraculous reconciliation. And don't you see that in our lives, Mike, if this family's going to be healed, it's going to involve the Lord. I have got to go to the Lord and say, I don't know how to heal this family, so help me. And they have this really intense experience. Now Jacob is ready to go meet Esau, not knowing if it's going to work.

[C]

Chapter 33. Here's the moment of moments. It gets intense. If this was a movie, the crescendo, the music is building and building. You know those scenes where the armies are charging after and there's going to be. It's really intense. It's kind of like that verse one. And Jacob lifted up his eyes and looked. And behold, there's that threefold sight imagery. Lift up, eyes, looked, behold. This is the moment. It is unfolding before his eyes. Will there be reconciliation then? You got to ask yourself, okay, so we know that lift up your eyes is an idiom. And it can either mean, oh, just to look closely, make a close inspection, or it can mean, is this going to be a visionary, revelatory moment? I would suggest, yes. Historically. Jacob's lifting up his eyes and he's looking at the horizon. Oh, I see the dust kicking up. I see a bunch of people. Is that Esau and his four? He's cast. He's lifting his eyes. He's making a close inspection. He looked, and behold, and Esau came with his 400 men, and he divided the children unto Leah and Rachel and to the two handmaids. Verse 3. And Jacob himself passed over before them, the thems referring to his wife's and his kids. And he bowed himself to the ground seven times. I've never seen this movie made. He bows, and I imagine he takes another step or two. Then he bows a second time, takes a step or two forward, bows again seven times, indicating this is complete submission and humility. He is treating Esau as royalty here. Then it says in the end of verse three, until he came near to his brother, that phrase, he came near. Those three words, he came near is a Hebrew phrase used when priests draw near to the altar to minister before God. You know, you had Moses, tabernacle, and you had the tent, and outside was the altar of sacrifice. That Hebrew phrase, he came near, you don't hear it in the English, but if you look at the Hebrew, and every time that appears, often it refers to when the Levites or the priests would come and offer animals at that altar. Again, he's not just treating Esau as a king, but he's even treating with respect as if he was approaching God Himself. Verse 4. And Esau ran to meet him and embraced him and fell on his neck and kissed him and they wept. What's crazy about this? Who initiates all the actions?

[A]

Sounds like Esau.

[C]

Esau is the one running. It's Esau that embraces Jacob. Esau fell on his neck. Esau kissed him, and then they weep together. That was not expected, Mr. Redheaded Hothead. Then notice verse five. And who lifts up his eyes? Esau lifts up his eyes. And you can say he's just looking around, hey, who are all these women and children and all these flocks and donkeys and cattle? He's trying. Okay, you can read that historically, but I would also suggest he's going to have the spirit work on him. He's going to have a vision. Whoa. I'm seeing the blessings of the Covenant here. Verse 6. The handmaids come, and they bow before Esau. And 7, Leah and all her kids come and bow. And then Esau says in verse eight, what is the meaning behind all of these flocks? Then Jacob says, these flocks are defying grace in the sight of my Lord. In other words, they're all for you. Verse 9. And Esai said, this is key. I hope our listeners really listen to this. I have enough. Verse 10. And Jacob said, nay, I pray thee, which means, please, please. If now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand, for therefore I have seen thy face as though I have seen the face of God. And that was pleased with me. Verse 11. Take. I pray thee, Esau, please take my blessing. He's not just interested in you. Take my animals so we can bury the hatchet and we can be on good terms. Let me compensate you because you feel like I swindled you. He's imploring him to accept the gospel covenant. Take my blessing that is brought to thee because God hath dealt graciously with me and because I have enough. That echoes the same phrase that we heard in verse nine, when Esau says, no, no, I'm good. I have enough. And then Jacob says, no, I have enough. But now it's a different Hebrew word. The KJV uses enough in both responses, but when Jacob says it, he. He says, I have. The Hebrew word is coal. I have everything. I have all things. Which harkens back to Genesis 24:1, where the Lord said that he had blessed Abraham in all things. We call that in biblical studies. That's an inclusio. The whole main purpose of it is to know that God can bless us through the covenant in all ways. It ends with this amazing cliffhanger. And Jacob urged Esau, and Esau took it. Then it just ends, okay, so he took the animals. But on a symbolic level, did Esau accept the covenant? It just leaves you hanging like, you got to decide for yourself. That's an invitation for us as the readers to realize because we all have Esau's. A lot of them will come back and they will accept it. The text seems to suggest that maybe did because he lifted up his eyes. He maybe had that revelatory moment where the spirit's working on him. It's Esau that initiates the hug, the embrace, the kiss, the falling on the neck. It's Esau that's very forgiving. The text is clearly trying to say, there's so many that we cry ourselves to sleep and we worry about them. Are you going to make it? And the text is like, that's the Lord imploring us. You don't give up on them. Those Esau's can become like Heavenly Father, not just receive the covenant, but they are going to be exalted.

[B]

I have a couple of stories I brought today that I want to share because the Come Follow Me manual has this short little section that says, the Savior can heal my family. As Jacob returned to Canaan, he was greatly afraid and distressed about how his brother Esau would receive him. It asks us to read these sections that you've read with us and said, maybe this story could inspire you to reach out to someone. So I wanted to give some examples of these and maybe you both could share. These are short little stories of reconciliation. This first one is written by President Russell M. Nelson. He said, 58 years ago, I was asked to operate on a little girl gravely ill from congenital heart disease. Her older brother had previously died of a similar condition. Her parents pleaded for help. I was not optimistic about the outcome, but vowed to do all in my power to save her. Despite my best efforts, the child died. Later, the same parents brought another daughter to me, just 16 months old, also born, with a malformed heart. Again, at their request, I performed an operation. This child also died, he said. This third heartbreaking loss in one family literally undid me. I went home grief stricken. I threw myself on our living room floor and cried all night. Dancel, his wife, stayed by my side, listening as I repeatedly declared I would never perform another heart operation. Dancel looked at me lovingly and said, are you finished crying? Get dressed, Go back to the lab. Go to work. You need to learn more. If you quit now, others will have to painfully learn what you already know. Well then, In April of 2016, he shared this on social media. Congenital heart disease afflicted three children born to Ruth and Jimmy Hatfield. Their first son, Jimmy Jr. Died without a definitive diagnosis. I entered the picture when the parents sought help for their Two daughters, Laurel Ann and younger sister Galen. I was heartbroken when both girls died following their operations. Understandably, Ruth and Jimmy were spiritually shattered. Over time I learned that they harbored lingering resentment toward me and the church. For almost six decades, I have been haunted by this situation and have grieved for the Hatfields. I tried several times to establish contact with them without success. Then one night last May, I was awakened by those two little girls from the other side of the veil. Though I did not see or hear them with my physical senses, I felt their presence. Spiritually, I heard their pleadings. Their message was brief and clear. Emboldened by the pleadings of Laurel Ann and Gay Lynn, I tried to connect with their father. Their mother had passed away, who I learned was living with his son Sean. This time they were willing to meet with me. In June, President Nelson says I literally knelt in front of Jimmy, now 88 years old, and had a heart to heart talk with him. I spoke of his daughter's pleadings and told him I would be honored to perform temple ordinances for his family. He said the spirit of the Lord was palpable throughout the meeting. And when Jimmy and Sean each accepted my offer, I was overjoyed. Not long ago in the Payson, Utah temple, I had the profound privilege of sealing Ruth to Jimmy and their four children. To them. Wendy and I wept as we participated in that sublime experience, reconciliation.

[C]

The thought that came to my mind is when wow. You asked me to picture President Nelson literally kneeling before him. That reminds me of what? That's what Jacob. He bowed himself seven times. So I just barely started. Podcast with my daughter Kyla Spackman on YouTube it's at Kyla Spackman. We were talking about this and she's like dad, you know in this story we're the Esau's. It's as if God is the one who bows himself down towards us. It's God. Even though we can be slobs and we can sell our birthright for a mess of pottage, God continues to treat us as royalty. He knows our true destiny.

[B]

This is our friend S. Michael Wilcox, who's joining us on the podcast again this year. Later on this story comes from him. He has one memory of his father prior to his parents divorce. He is very young and he is sitting on top of his father's shoulders at an amusement park. His father, who had been instrumental in his mother's return to the church, fell away from the church himself as the rest of his life fell apart. After the divorce, Michael's father occasionally came to town to take Michael and his siblings to the amusement park. But there were no letters, no gifts between visits. In the absence of his father, Michael's mother, Norma Wilcox, threw everything she had into raising Michael and his older sisters. We were the most important thing in her life, and so we saved her, and she saved us, michael said. His mother, who was a stalwart Latter Day Saint for the remainder of her life, taught Michael that though his father wasn't around, there was someone else. He could always rely on his father in heaven. And so Michael begins to talk to his father in heaven regularly. He talks about how he said, I have this feeling now that I've been talking to God my whole life. Perhaps it was this communication with Heavenly Father that led to a stirring in Michael's heart as a freshman in college, a stirring that led him to do something he did not anticipate in college. He says, I was moved by God to engage my father, which terrified him because he didn't think he mattered. He did matter. His being gone mattered. His father was scared to death when he received Michael's call. But Michael was determined to make his father a part of his family. From their reconnection to the end of his life, Michael's father was invited to holiday gatherings. He was loved unconditionally. And as Michael had children, his father became a grandfather. Mike goes on to say, now, he wasn't the greatest of grandpas because he didn't know how, but he could be involved. Michael adds, my father was a weak man, but he was not a bad man. His father returned to the church and served a mission on Temple Square. And when he died, Michael wept in the great wisdom of God's goodness. My father was instrumental in bringing my mother back into the church. And then his life fell apart and he left. So my father brought my mother into the church. My mother gave me my faith, and I gave it back to my father.

[A]

Hmm, beautiful.

[B]

I wanted to show you both something. And maybe I'm just being a little overly emotional here, but here is this beautiful reconciliation between Esau and Jacob. And do you notice who witnesses it? This is Genesis 32, verse 7. Leah also with her children came near and bowed themselves. And after came Joseph near and Rachel, and they bowed themselves. I have to wonder if Joseph of Egypt learned how to forgive and reconcile from this moment.

[A]

Great insight.

[B]

Don't you wonder if that stuck with him for the rest of his life? He saw brothers meet and reconcile, and he himself is going to be in that same position later in life.

[C]

So inspiring. I'd Never seen that, Hank.

[A]

What I love about so many current events in the Old Testament is they foreshadow coming events. This is that long view of God that we've always talked about. He's a healer, He's a restorer, he's a deliverer. Here we see this reconciliation, and I think it foreshadows a huge reconciliation. Perhaps we can all hope for that and work for it in the next life. I love that the story's in here and that there's a whole lot of middle to get through, which is really tough and characterized by wrestling. But there's a reconciliation coming, and we can hope for that. God is really good at it. He's mighty to save, he's eager to forgive and in relentless pursuit. I love it.

[B]

Now, Mike, you've made me wonder what is happening to Esau this whole time. We don't know. We don't know. But the Lord was working with him, I think the same way he was working with Jacob,

[C]

and I think the way he's working with all of us individually, you and I and all our families. As messy as things might be for

[B]

such a messy family, it sure is a beautiful story. Yeah, maybe that's true for all of us.

[A]

Yeah, maybe bigger messes get bigger reconciliations.

[C]

So beautiful.

[B]

Mike, thanks for spending your day with us.

[C]

Thank you so much. What a thrill. Yeah.

[B]

This was so much fun. And I know when I'm feeling the Holy Ghost because I don't want it to end. I want to go back and let's cover more words, more verses. I'm just really touched by the way you read scripture. You've taught me to go slower as I read, and it's been really wonderful, Mike.

[C]

Yeah. Thank you.

[B]

With that, we want to thank brother Mike Harris for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode, we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We have more of this messy family coming up on Follow Him. As a thank you to our wonderful listeners, we'd love to gift you the digital version of our book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. It offers short, meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episodes. Visit followhim.co. that's followhim.co. to download your free copy today, and you'll also find the link to purchase the print edition. Thank you for being part of our Follow him family. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, Sydney Smith and Annabelle Sorensen.

[C]

Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teaching of Jesus Christ.

[B]

Turn to him.

[C]

Follow him.