A (4:17)

I just love the principle. If we want to know the reason for everything, that's kind of a slippery slope. There's so many commandments that do make sense. But when I think of this, I think of the word of wisdom coming at a time when there wasn't the science about certain things. And the early Latter Day Saints, if you had asked them, why aren't you chewing tobacco? They wouldn't know the science, they would just, we have a prophet. Maybe the luxury comes. I love that Adam obeyed first and then got the explanation. Maybe that's a sequence there that we can hope for when we're doing things that we don't fully understand. Perhaps.

B (4:59)

I think we can sometimes see this in simple Things, too, with impressions that we get from the spirit. I remember one time when I was living in Oregon. At that time, you weren't allowed to pump your own gas in Oregon, so a gas station attendant would pump your gas for you. So I'm at the gas station, the guy's pumping my gas, and the spirit says to me, you should ask him if he knows anything about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I was like, oh, come on, Lord. Really? Like, this is kind of awkward. I said, hey, have you ever heard of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? And he's like, oh, yeah. You know, I actually just moved to this town, but in the last town I lived in, I was meeting with some missionaries, and I was like, oh, well, would you like to meet with the missionaries here? He's like, yeah. And within three weeks, he. His wife and child were baptized. It was incredible. Like, okay, that's why the prompting came. But about that same time, I got a prompting one Sunday morning to go visit a person in my ward, just knock on his door and see how he was doing. So I went, knocked on his door. He never answered. That's the end of the story. And so I still don't, like, why did I feel, you know, some promptings? I think there's a real clear story, like, okay, that's why that prompting came. Other promptings might come, and we're like, I have no idea what that was all about. And that's okay. We don't always know the reason why we had that commandment or that prompting. We just follow it. And sometimes it'll be revealed now, and maybe sometimes it'll be revealed much later.

C (6:22)

Yeah. John, can we come back to what you said about expectations in the Fall? Some of the most difficult, heartbreaking discussions are those when someone says, I was doing my best. I felt like to live the gospel, and then this thing happened. That really isn't the time as a teacher to say, you don't understand the fall. How do we help our young people, maybe even our older people see that difficulty and trial. This is to be expected in a fallen world. It's not fun. It's not something that I'm excited about, perhaps. But when it happens, the question of, wait, I thought this wasn't supposed to happen. That expectation, that can really get us into some trouble. And. And I start to doubt whether God is real and if he loves me.

B (7:17)

Take it to the scriptures. I mean, you do not have to read very far in the scriptures to see that. Lehi does the right thing and his kids try to kill him. Jeremiah spends his whole life preaching to the people of Jerusalem. They reject him. Mormon works so hard to get the Nephites on course, they turn even worse and worse. I haven't done a full study on this, but my guess is we can find way more stories in the scriptures of people who chose the right and life was hard than we can. People who chose the right and everything worked out exactly the way that they would have hoped. It's just a scriptural pattern, right? Abinadi is doing exactly what God wants him to do. There's a couple times when God miraculously delivers Abinadi, but then there's also a time when Abinadi is killed. I'm sure that's not what he was hoping for at the end of his life, but that's part of living in a fallen world. I do think it's important for us to remember, though, that even though we're fallen, we are not forsaken. Jesus said, my peace, I give unto you. Not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled. There is going to be difficulty in the world. So if I'm expecting no difficulty or because I chose the right, everything's going to work out. That's obviously a bad expectation. But even in the midst of the fallenness, we are not forsaken.

C (8:34)

That is beautiful. Even the Lord himself, if anyone deserves to have things go well, it was him. Yet he was despised, rejected, crucified.

B (8:47)

For anyone who's suffering right now, I would say remember, Jesus on the cross said, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And because Jesus was forsaken, none of us ever have to be because he said, I will not leave you comfortless. I will come to you.

C (9:02)

I love our talk of expectations here. John, by the way, do you have anything there before we move on to the.

A (9:07)

Yeah, Hank. I think that, as John pointed out, one of the best talks I've ever heard about expectations was from Hank Smith. Because of that, you started on the road to Emmaus. Well, we had trusted that it was him who was going to deliver Israel. They were disappointed, but they had the wrong expectation. And then Jesus teaches them. One of the areas, too, that I think is expectations is be careful how we expect each other. There may be someone who serves with you in the church or who doesn't meet your expectations. We may look at church history and, well, how come they weren't perfect in this? Or, well, this is all God has ever had to work with. As Elder Holland said, and we famously repeat. What did you expect? Well, we should expect opposition in all things. We should expect that life is going to be hard, but God has a long view. He's relentlessly going to bring us back. That expectation I cling to.

C (10:04)

Yeah, a fallen world is going to have a lot of fallen experiences. John, thank you for that.

B (10:10)

Yeah, thank you. Let's come back to this sacrifice that Adam and Eve are offering. So for many days they don't know why, but then eventually they do learn the reason why. For some things, we're not going to know the full reason. But I do think in some cases is helpful to ask why and to see if God will reveal that to us. And in this case, the angel explained. This is verse seven. The sacrifice is a similitude of the sacrifice of the only begotten son. From the beginning, sacrifice points to Jesus Christ. And this is something that we can look at through the entire study of the Old Testament. Every time you see an altar that points to Jesus Christ, that's still true today. You can think of that altar symbolism in the temple, at the very front in the endowment room, or at the very front of the instruction room in the temple, there's an altar symbolizing the death of Jesus Christ. Or think about a ceiling room. At the center of a ceiling room is an altar, a symbol of Jesus Christ. On one occasion, Elder Bruce C. Hafen was talking about performing a ceiling of a husband and wife. He said, I'm quoting him here. He said, I invited the man and the woman to come to the altar and to join hands across the altar. Altar. Whether you think about the altar or the hands that are clasped together on the altar, Christ's death is literally at the center of a sealing covenant. Really deeply understanding that, seeing it, feeling it, that can change how we view a marriage. So it is important to see the reason why and the symbolism when it is there. This passage here in Moses, chapter five is a really powerful illustration of that. Now, today, God is no longer asking us to lay lambs on an altar. But I love that in Third Nephi, chapter nine, we read what Jesus said. Ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood. I will accept none of your sacrifices and burnt offerings. Ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. That's something that we can still sacrifice today, our pride. Or maybe it's an app or a distraction, something that I let go of to focus more on him.

A (12:32)

All the altars you mentioned, I think two of the sacrament table. It's an altar. It's remembering Jesus's body and his blood. What do we bring to sacrament meeting? We are the sacrifice. Right? We bring our broken heart, our contrite spirit. Thank you for reminding us. There's the altar is in all these different things that we do. The sacrifice.

B (12:56)

That reminds me of a quote from Elder Maxwell. He said true sacrifice was never about sacrificing an animal on the altar, but sacrificing the animal in us on the altar.

C (13:10)

Moses, chapter 5, verse 6. We would be wise to stop there with our kids. Why are you doing what you're doing? You know what? I don't know. But I know God wants me to do this. That, to me, is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Right? The first principle of the gospel. Sometimes we're going to know why, sometimes we're not. But I'm going to do it. I'm moving forward.

B (13:34)

I do think it's important to distinguish between different types of why questions too. So if the question is, why do you live the law of chastity. If my kid's like, I don't know, that's what my mom told me to do. I mean, that's good. But we really want to teach the why so that when the heat comes, you know. But there's going to be other situations, like why did my brother die? Why do I have this sickness? Those kinds of why questions we can't answer. You have to distinguish which of the why questions are going to be helpful and fruitful and which ones do we just have to lay at the altar and trust in the Lord and that.

C (14:08)

He'Ll send further light and knowledge?

A (14:11)

It will come eventually, in his own time.

B (14:14)

Let's jump over to verse 10. I love the perspective that Adam and Eve offer on the fall. Moses, chapter 5, verse 10. Adam said, Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened. In this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God. Then in the very next verse, Eve declares, were it not for our transgression, we never should have had seed and never should have known good and evil and the joy of our redemption and the eternal life, which God giveth to all the obedient. For me, Eve's perspective particularly resonates, without the Fall, there would be no us. Adam and Eve would have no children. Second, Nephi 2 says, if Adam and Eve had not transgressed, they would have had no children. Adam fell that men might be. Eve talks about the joy of redemption and you said it earlier, John, that it's not just a fall downward, but it's a fall forward with the atonement of Jesus Christ. It actually can become a fall upward as well. I think sometimes we think of Christ's atonement as being a response to the fall. So God's like, oh, we got the fall. Like, what's our backup plan? It wasn't the backup plan. Jesus Christ was sacrificed from the beginning. Moses, chapter 6, verse 54, says, Jesus Christ was prepared from the foundation of the world so the fall can turn us upward towards Him. We've kind of already talked a little bit about this, but as a result of the fall, there's a lot of unfairness that's going to come into the world we live in, a world that is inherently unfair. In fact, Elder Renlund talked about infuriating unfairness. I love what he said. This is from Elder Renlund, quote, I declare with all my aching heart that Jesus Christ both understands unfairness and has the power to provide a remedy. Nothing compares to the unfairness he endured. It was not fair that he experienced all the pains and afflictions of mankind. It was not fair that he suffered for my sins and mistakes and for yours. But he chose to do so because of his love for us and for Heavenly Father. He understands perfectly what we are experiencing. And what I love about that is it's a reminder that life isn't fair and there are inherently unfair things because of the fall. But because of the atonement, all unfairness will be made right. Sometimes in this life, sometimes in the next. But probably my favorite passage of Scripture is in Revelation, chapter 21, verse 4, where we read that in the millennium there'll be no more tears, no more sor, no more crying. Behold, he who sits on the throne says, I am making everything new. All that unfairness, all made new in Jesus Christ.

A (17:15)

John, those lines about we should never have had seed, or in two Nephi, they would have had no children. You can read those in less than two seconds, and it goes by pretty fast. But that is huge theologically. There's a school of thought that if it weren't for Adam and Eve, we'd all be living in paradise today. These scriptures are like, well, actually, we wouldn't be here at all. They would not have had seed. And I also wanted to mention our colleague Brad Wilcox, that said the atonement of Christ was plan A, not plan B. It wasn't plan B to clean up the mess Adam and Eve made of the world, but it was planned from the beginning. And one of the things the Book of Mormon does so often is when it says the word, the atonement, it often adds, which was prepared from the foundation of the world. This was a plan A. It was always part of the plan, not, oh, no, now what do we do? Adam and Eve fell, and let's try.

B (18:15)

Plan B. I do want to acknowledge that there are certainly things that I don't understand about the fall and that probably nobody understands about the fall and its consequences, its ramifications. But I love 2nd Nephi 2. 24. All things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. None of this surprised God, and that's, for me, a great comfort.

A (18:38)

That verse has been a fallback verse for me for a long time, because the questions, well, why did it have to be this way? Why did Jesus have to suffer so much? Was there another way to do this? That verse says, I know what I'm doing. All things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. That verse is my fallback sometimes when not everything makes sense.

B (19:04)

Yeah, that's powerful. So far, we've been spending all of our time with Adam and Eve. But let's turn to the next generation. In Genesis, chapter four, we're reading about Cain and Abel. So this is starting in verse 2. Abel kept flocks and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time, Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering, fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering. But on Cain and his offering, he did not look with favor. Cain was very angry and his face was downcast. This is actually a puzzle for theologians. For centuries, people have been wondering, why is Cain's offering rejected and and Abel's accepted? We have additional restoration scripture. So it might not be as much of a mystery for us, but without that, it can be kind of a puzzle, because it seems like Cain is doing a good thing. Some have maybe wondered God really wanted an animal sacrifice. Cain's just giving what he has. So it's sort of like give what's convenient, not what God wants you to give. What we really see in terms of solving this puzzle is what comes in Moses, chapter five. Again, this is the Joseph Smith translation. So In Moses, chapter 5, verse 16, these are the first words we hear Cain speak. He says, who is the Lord? That I should know him. That phrase, who is the Lord? Other people who say that in Scripture are the Pharaoh with Moses and King Noah. So it's not very good company to be keeping here. But in contrast, we read in verse 17, Abel hearkened unto the voice of the Lord God. There's more here than what we see in Genesis. Verse 18 really shows us the problem with Cain's sacrifice. It says Cain loves Satan more than God, and Satan commanded him, saying, make an offering to the Lord. Cain didn't bring a sacrifice because he loved God. He did it because he was listening to Satan. And I'm pretty confident that no one who's on the podcast right now is actively doing what Satan's telling them to do. But to me, a principle that comes out of this is sort of my motive for doing it. Yes, I'm doing the right thing, but maybe I'm doing the right thing so that other people will notice me, or I'm doing the right thing to feel good about myself, but I'm not doing the right thing for the right reason. And I do think it's better to do the right thing for the wrong reason than to just do the wrong thing. But there's a problem here. It's a heart problem that we're seeing with Cain.

A (21:35)

Yeah, it's very clarifying because I remember watching that epic movie, the Bible and how they handled it there, that he started pouring some of the grain and then he started taking some back, and that's how they handled it there. To say it wasn't his heart wasn't really in it. But here, the Pearl of great price gives us additional wisdom about. Oh, okay, thanks for that, John.

B (21:57)

It's clear, though, that God's rejection of Cain's offering is not a rejection of cain. In verse 23, God pleads with Cain to change. He says, if you do well, shalt thou not be accepted? In other words, it's like Cain. You can still make this right, like be on the right path. But instead of repenting, Cain gets angry. One day, Satan comes to Cain and says, this is verse 29. This day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thy hands. This is the world's first secret combination. It's between Cain and Satan, and it's a plan to kill Abel. I love how the Book of Mormon gives us additional insight on this. This is Helam. In chapter Mormon talks about this exact moment, and he says, Satan promised Cain that if he would murder his brother Abel, it should not be known unto the world. Now think about what a big lie that is, right? Is there any murder in the world that is better known than Cain? It's just like what we saw in the garden, right? Satan is not interested in the truth. He's the master of spin and he's trying to spin things in a certain way. It reminds me of a quote from Elder Richard G. Scott who said, Satan strives to convince one that sins can be hidden from others, yet it is he that causes them to be revealed in the most compromising circumstances. But Cain believes the lie. He finds Abel in the field, kills him, and then ironically says, I am free. But he's never been in greater captivity. So at this moment, just like we saw in the garden, God comes calling. Verse 34. Where is Abel thy brother? The Lord asks. And Cain responds, I know not. Am I my brother's keeper? This is another one of the, probably the most famous questions in the Bible. The way he's phrasing is like, well, obviously like my brother has agency, like I'm not in charge of him. And there's probably some validity to that. But I love what President Oaks said. Are we our brother's keeper? Are we responsible to look after the well being of our neighbors as we seek to earn our daily bread? The Savior's golden rule says we are. It's okay. I want to pause for a moment and just think about that question God asks, where is your brother? If we try to like maybe think about God asking us that question today. What thoughts, what impressions come to your mind when you hear God asking you, where's your brother?

A (24:40)

It just makes me think of the church described as a community of saints. And even outside, everybody's my brother. Everybody's my sister. And what did Jacob Marley say? Mankind was my business. Their common welfare was my business.

C (24:56)

I would be my brother's keeper. I would learn the healer's art, right? The parable of the Good Samaritan, who is my neighbor. The expectation the Lord has that we, we watch out for each other.

B (25:09)

I think it was Elder Holland who said, we might not be our brother's keeper, but we are our brother's brother. I know in my own life sometimes I forget to call my brothers, let alone do all of the things that.

A (25:21)

I should be doing.

B (25:23)

I think that's a great question for us to just, just marinate on in our souls. And maybe in a prayer later today we think of that phrase, where's your brother? Maybe some impression will come to our hearts of something we can do to help out a brother or a sister in our lives. Coming back to Cain's story, in response to Cain's question, am I my brother's keeper? The Lord says, what have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries unto me from the ground. Even in the middle of Cain's sin, there's still a merciful covering. Just like Adam and Eve received a covering, so does Cain. Because after Cain confesses, he says, I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth. It shall come to pass. He that findeth me will slay me because of mine iniquities. And then in verse 40, we read, and it came to pass. The Lord said, yes, somebody probably will kill you. And it serves you right. Okay, that's actually not what verse 40 says. I know some of you are like, whoa, what translation was that? No, that's probably what I would have said. That's not what verse 40 says. Instead, verse 40 gives us something unexpected. Instead of condemning Cain to death, God gives him a covering, a mark not of shame, but of protection. Verse 40 really says, the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. This mark is meant to protect Cain. Even after all of Cain's rebellion, God still promises mercy. Now, if you keep going. In Moses, chapter five, we mentioned that Satan and Cain formed the first secret combination. These secret combinations continue, and we see them in Moses 5. That's important because at least for me growing up, when I heard the phrase secret combinations, I thought of the Gadian robbers in the Book of Morm, and they definitely are a secret combination. But then I noticed that in Second Nephi, chapter nine, Jacob warns against secret combinations. And then a few verses later, Nephi also warns about secret combinations. And in my mind as a kid, I was like, wait, how did Jacob and Nephi know about secret combinations? Because that hasn't even happened yet until the Book of Helaman. But on the brass plates, they had something like Moses 5 that's warning them. It's really interesting. In Genesis, you don't see Satan directly involved in the Fall or in the Flood. You don't see him in the Tower of Babel. But restoration Scripture makes it clear that Satan is actively involved in all of these events. And he is the author of secret combinations. A few generations after Cain, he has a descendant of named Lamik. There's a verse here that's so scary, I had to actually read it a couple of times to be like, is this. Is this like a true verse? It's Moses 5,49. It says, Lamic entered into a covenant with Satan. I mean, that is frightening. It's the secret combination to support power and violence. And when a member of the secret combination started divulging the secrets to others. Lamic kills him. Cain killed for gain. Lamech kills just for the sake of the oath. In Moses 5, 54, we read, Lamech was despised and cast out, and came not among the sons of men, lest he should die. Thus the works of darkness began to prevail among all the sons of men. And God cursed the earth with the sore curse and was angry with the wicked and with all the sons of men whom he had made for. And they would not hearken unto his voice, nor believe on his only begotten son. It's kind of seems like a very depressing way to end chapter five. And there were lots of secret combinations, lots of darkness and all right. What a great scripture. Said you kids, let's have family prayer.

C (29:19)

A message from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

B (29:22)

But the chapter isn't actually over. There's still a ray of hope. I love verse 58. Thus the gospel began to be preached from the beginning, being declared by holy angels sent forth from the presence of God by his own voice and by the gift of the Holy Ghost. Even in the darkest of times, the gospel is still preached. It could be easy today in the world we live in to get bogged down with secret combinations and wondering like, okay, what? What secret combinations are happening in the world today? I love how the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon, when they realized that secret combinations were among them, what did they do? This is Helaman, chapter 6, verse 37. The Lamanites did hunt the band of robbers of Gadian, and they did preach the word of God among the more wicked part of them. Insomuch that this band of robbers was utterly destroyed from the Lamanites, I think it's the same for us today. We can combat secret combinations by obviously working to promote just laws. We can also get the gospel deep in our hearts and share it with others. That's the whole good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, where Lamech said he wanted to get 70 and sevenfold vengeance.

C (30:37)

Jesus.

B (30:38)

Jesus offers 70 times 7 forgiveness. Lamech killed to protect his power. Jesus died to give us power. Lamech boasted of his own strength. Jesus always did the will of his Father. Jesus is always pointing us to the greater way and giving us the greater strength to do the things that are right, even when we live in difficult times. Now, before we conclude, there's one final passage that I want to share. I want to go back to a moment in the garden, but anything else that you guys want to Talk about before we wrap things up.

C (31:13)

I remember four years ago we had Sean Hopkin here, man, back to back. Sean Hopkin and John Hilton. This is a. An amazing companionship. He said, notice that when Adam and Eve leave the garden, it's you are going to work, you're going to provide, you're going to sweat. Notice that the adversaries. One of his first temptations to Cain is, take what you want. Your brother has it.

B (31:39)

Go.

C (31:39)

Take it, take it violently. That stayed with me because I frequently look for shortcuts. I know I'm not looking to hurt anyone. I frequently look to avoid work. That seems to be part of the secret combinations is we're going to avoid. We're going to avoid the work that comes with the fall. We don't have to work. I've tried to develop a character of work is going to bring me joy.

B (32:07)

Right.

C (32:07)

It's an important part of. It's an important part of life. And John Hilton, I know you as a dad, you enjoy allowing or giving your children the opportunity to work and let them feel the joy of that.

B (32:21)

Yeah, I love that. That's a great perspective. Thanks. Sean. I hear the echo of your voice here.

A (32:27)

Yeah, absolutely. After Lehi dies and Nephi has to leave second Nephi 5, I had to teach my people to be industrious and to labor with their hands. It wasn't. Now we're away from those guys, we can finally relax.

C (32:42)

They lived after the manner of happiness. Yeah.

A (32:44)

Right there in same chapter.

C (32:46)

John Hilton, I like what you did here. We could really get discouraged and it could get really dark. Speaking of these secret combinations, we'll have to bring you back in the Book of Mormon year and say, okay, keep walking us through this. You're going to be our master of secret combinations.

B (33:03)

I don't know if I want to be the master of secret combinations.

C (33:05)

I like how you flipped it, though, and you said, look how opposite is of the Savior. And look what he offers us. He offers us community as well. Covenants as well. Light, truth. John, I think as a seminary teacher or a parent this week, I don't have to just say, hey, let's talk about secret combination. I can say, let's flip it around and look at what the Savior offers.

B (33:30)

Yeah. And I think that's so important. We can do that with whatever block of scripture we're in. There's a talk and maybe we can link to it in the show Notes by Chad Webb, where he emphasizes the importance of bringing whatever it is we're talking about Christ at The center. You know, for example, soon we'll be talking about the Tower of Babel. And the people say we want to make a name for ourselves and that, like, what a great principle that we can apply into our lives. So whatever it is that we're talking about, Brother Webb says we need to point people to Jesus Christ. Sometimes we're going to see, like, a heroic person in scripture, and we can see how Jesus Christ is the greater version of that person. Sometimes we see a negative person like Lamech, and we see how Jesus Christ is the complete opposite of the person. And I think, just maybe pausing at the end of a chapter, say, where are we seeing Jesus Christ in here? Is a really powerful way to center ourselves on the Savior.

C (34:27)

When that's a maybe a constant check on my lessons this year throughout seminary, with my students, with my children, make sure that that question's being answered. Whatever we're talking about today, how can it take them towards Christ? How can we see Christ here? And that's part of the series you're doing, right?

B (34:44)

Yeah. I mean, Jesus Christ really is on every page. And we can see him whether we're talking about Noah and the Ark or the Tower of Babel or Jonah and the Great Fish, He's a part of every story. Sometimes it's obvious, and sometimes we have to, like, puzzle it out and think about it. Probably most of us weren't thinking this morning about how Lamech and his secret combination is the antitype of Christ. I love what you said. For every secret combination, there's a sacred covenant. For every work in darkness, there's a Savior who invites us to come into the light. So these oppositions and parallels, they're all throughout the Scriptures, and finding them is really fun and really centering on what matters most.

A (35:24)

We talked about hiding. Well, what's the secret? It's something we're trying to hide. And I'm looking at John 18:20, When Jesus is in front of Caiaphas. Jesus answered him. I spake openly to the world I ever taught in the synagogue and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort and in secret. Have I said nothing? I just think it's interesting how open that is in contrast to these secret combinations we've been talking about.

C (35:53)

Yeah, John, you made me think of an elder Holland moment. April 2010. He's speaking about the enemy of our soul, the adversary that we've been discussing. He says, true love. We are absolutely giddy about, as I am about Sister Holland. We shout it from the housetops. Lust is characterized by shame and stealth and is almost pathologically clandestine. The later and the darker the hour, the better. With a double bolted door, just in case. Love makes us instinctively reach out to God and other people. Lust is anything but godly, celebrates self indulgence. Love comes with open hands and an open heart. Lust comes only with an open appetite. Almost that same contrast that John has been taking us through today.

B (36:44)

That's a powerful quote.

A (36:45)

Insightful.

B (36:47)

Well, as we conclude today, maybe we can end with one example of what we're talking about. Finding Jesus Christ in the center of a story. I want to go back to what God said to Satan in the garden. He said, I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your offspring and hers. He will crush your head and you will strike his heel. So the offspring of the woman here is a clear reference to Jesus Christ. Now think about that phrase, you will strike his heel. Often when we think of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, if you imagine it, you see nails going through the tops of his feet. But actually, according to archaeological evidence, people were crucified with nails going through the sides of their feet right next to the heel. So in a sense, you can literally see Satan striking Christ's heel on the cross, but Jesus crushing his head. In Hebrews chapter two, it says, jesus, through death destroyed the one who has the power of death, that is the devil. And it brings us to an interesting detail because you remember that Jesus is crucified in the middle of two thieves. And there's a detail about the tree of life. Do you remember back in Genesis 2, 9, the tree of life was in the middle of the garden. Jesus Christ got up on a tree on the middle tree because he is the tree of life. And because of his sacrifice, we can have ultimate peace through him. To me, that's a reminder that God is still calling us and he's still covering us. Because of that, we can deeply rest from our worries because Jesus is the tree of life, because he got up on that middle tree.

C (38:44)

I remember learning that about crucifixion in this book I read called Considering the How Calvary Connects Us with Christ by John Hilton iii.

B (38:54)

Yep, sounds like a great one.

C (38:56)

It was a great book. It was a great book, John. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all that we've talked about today. One, I'm going to order maybe an easier edition of the Bible for me and my children, especially my younger boys, to read something at a simpler grade level. And then when difficult, hard things happen, at least I can take a breath and say, okay, this was part of the program. I live in a fallen world. Just the other day, I stepped out of my garage, going down to my truck, and I rolled my ankle like you wouldn't believe. I hit my head on my son's scooter. And I'm thinking, I'm trying to do good things here. Right. I think I was headed out to speak at a Morningside for a seminary. And as I'm there biting my fist, going, oh, we live in a fallen world where we literally fall.

B (39:53)

Right.

C (39:54)

And metaphorically where we fall. And then focusing on Christ each week here in the Old Testament, these are three major takeaways for me.

A (40:05)

Absolutely. I just learned so much today. John, thank you for this. For me, one of the things I just love is that God covered them, made coats of skins, and clothed them. That we are still impacted by that same thing. The fact that we are still blessed by that idea and in a literal way today is so wonderful to me that that story is still going on and we're blessed by that. And I have a way to remember every single morning that I am covered by Christ is really beautiful.

C (40:40)

Beautiful. John, give us your last thoughts before we let you go. It's been so fun having you here.

B (40:47)

Oh, thank you. For me, as I think of these chapters holistically, one image that just keeps coming to my mind is that importance of, you don't need the fig leaves when you have a coat of skins. I think there are so many ways in our lives, and this is a pattern. When we get to the Tower of Babel, it says, the people were trying to make a name for themselves. It's just another way of covering ourselves with fig leaves. Look for that. As you read through the Old Testament, I see in my life so often trying to cover myself with fig leaves when I already have the coat of skins. Jesus Christ is the answer for me. Stepping back in some ways, I see in Genesis chapters three and four, a lot of hiding from God. To me, the overarching message is, you are not too lost to be found. Your loved ones are not too lost to be found. God, the creator of the world, he is relentlessly pursuing us. He says, where are you? And so for me, this is such a hopeful message. No matter where you are, no matter where your loved ones are, you are not too lost to be found.

C (41:55)

Thank you. We're glad that Lonnie took a chance on you. Please tell her thank you for.

B (42:02)

It was a big risk.

C (42:04)

You were able to create the person you did some creating, and you became the man she needed you to be. Lonnie, if you're listening, we love you, too. With that, we want to thank Dr. John Hilton III for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorenson, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. In every episode, we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We're talking more of the Book of Genesis on Follow Him. Thank you for joining us on today's episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today's show notes and transcript are on our website, followhim. Co. That's followhim. Co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, Sydney Smith, and Annabelle Sorenson.

B (43:11)

Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

C (43:20)

Turn to him.

B (43:22)

Follow him.